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to be, at least by him. >> his. political calling card. >> a sudden announcement of. >> new. >> tariffs against canada. >> is. >> delivering another. >> shock to the markets. the dow. >> down nearly 400. >> points today. >> after dropping. >> more than 700 points at its lowest. >> that's after. >> donald trump took. >> to social. >> media to announce that he was raising tariffs on. >> aluminum and steel from. >> canada, 25%, doubling the tariffs. he imposed last week. >> they are. >> supposedly, again in trump's telling, in response to. ontario premier. >> doug ford. >> who's appeared on this. program recently slapping a surcharge on electricity imported by american households. but trump added that. >> the. only solution to the trade war. >> he started. is for canada to become the 51st american state. an absurd and embarrassing demand for america, one that no american president in history has ever made. it's inexplicable

and inexcusable to just about everyone. it's a demand that has been rebuffed over and over and over again by our friend canada. here's the incoming prime minister of canada, mark carney. >> there's someone who's trying. >> to. >> do the opposite. there's someone who's trying to weaken our economy. >> yeah. donald trump. donald trump. >> and donald. >> trump, as we know, has. put as the prime minister just said, unjustified tariffs on what we build. >> on what. >> we sell. >> on how we make a living. he's attacking canadian. >> families, workers. >> and businesses. >> and we cannot let him succeed. and we won't. we won't. the americans want our resources, our water, our land, our country. >> think about it.

>> if they. >> if they succeeded. >> they would destroy. >> our way of life. >> america is not canada, and canada never, ever. >> will. >> be part of america. >> in any way, shape. or form. we. look. >> imagine someone saying that. >> about us. >> quote they would destroy our way of life. it's us americans because of donald trump. the source tells nbc news that trump is heavily focused on annexing canada in. >> private musings and. >> conversations, that he's deadly serious about making canada. >> part of the united states of america. >> for now, the trade. >> war is hurting both countries. >> ontario premier. >> doug ford. making it clear. >> that donald trump owns and is responsible for all of the damage he's doing to both

nations economies. here's what he had to say on msnbc earlier. >> it's going to hurt your manufacturing. you need the aluminum. you need our high grade nickel. and i want. >> to send. >> more high grade nickel. you need our electricity. you need. the 4.3 million barrels of oil that gets shipped down. >> i want. >> to i want to make sure we build an american fortress, the two greatest countries in the world. and i stress this is not the american people. canadians know it. and if we go into a recession, it's self-made by one person. it's called president trump's recession, which shouldn't be this way. we should be booming both countries right now. >> in a statement. >> posted in the last hour, premier ford said he spoke to trump's commerce secretary, howard lutnick, and has agreed to talks with him. the tariffs. imposed on electricity coming in from ontario have been suspended for now. it remains to be seen if trump backs down from his tariff threat as well. here in the u.s. the sudden on again, off again, on again, off again, and the reversals and the chaos

caused by donald trump and his tariffs have led to some buyer's remorse from investors. >> new york times. >> reporting this, quote, investors have said they're struggling to understand the administration's messaging on tariffs, having previously thought trump's more extreme tariff rhetoric was mostly a negotiating tool, investors have started to worry that they may have been too blasé about the risks inherent in his strategy. donald trump's manufactured chaos, an imminent danger to the american economy, and our relations with our closest friends and allies is where we start today. canadian business journalist and ctv anchor amanda lang joins us. also joining us, staff writer for the atlantic, author of give people money, andy lowry's here and our friend, former democratic senator and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill is here. i have to start with you, amanda, with an apology. a lot of us, certainly claire. and i didn't think this was a very good idea. the american voters had a different idea, and here

we are. but tell me the view from canada. >> well. >> the view. >> of. >> course, has been one. >> of. >> shock and outrage. as you can imagine. >> the part of the. >> complexity here is it. >> would make sense. >> for our political leaders to actually be working towards renegotiating usmca early, actually putting everything on the table and saying, all right, what's the real agenda? >> what would. >> you like and how do we renegotiate it? the problem is, none of our leadership really wants to be seen. >> to be. >> backing down or even being conciliatory in the face of threats. to annex our country, and we don't know how serious those threats are, but we're being made to understand that we should take them seriously. so it puts us in a bit of a box. we'd like our leaders to be able to negotiate, because that seems. like the rational course. it seems as though the old way of trading is over, but politically, it's hard to make nice with this president right now. >> apparently, his talk of annexing canada and making it a

51st state is something that he talks about publicly and privately. it came up with with mr. trudeau earlier this week. what are the private conversations like in terms of how to how to deal with trump? >> they have varied over time. and remember much of our the outgoing administration here, prime minister trudeau and his cabinet dealt with the president in his first term, and they renegotiated a major trade deal. they renegotiated nafta. so they knew how they thought to deal with him. and you do deal with him with strength. so what you're seeing by way of these countervailing or reciprocating reciprocal tariffs is a show of strength on our part, because that's the understanding of what we need to do here. it might backfire. it might not. what we aren't going to see are canadian politicians who just lay down because the as i say, when you hear talk of crossing borders, whether it's greenland or panama or canada, it sort of behooves

our leadership to stand up to that. and what actually what we're hearing. and it's now becoming more and more public by our political leadership is take this seriously. this isn't actually just empty. and then the question goes, and i'll turn it back to you and the american citizens, including your members of congress. how serious? how serious do we take it? what is the rule of law around this, this kind of thing in the states? but at the moment, it would be ideal if we could contain this to a trade issue that we need to negotiate. >> yeah. i mean, i think that's the open question here. >> as well. >> i guess the last thing i would ask you is, is how has it changed, how the canadian people see the american people, people. >> to people? not in any way, i would say, in the sense that a lot of canadians live in the states some of the time. many, many canadians work in the states. we have friends and family. we, of course, love america and have respected and appreciated it for thousands of years, for hundreds and hundreds of years. the trouble, of course, is it's hard to divorce

those feelings from how we feel about your government. and i can tell you from a very personal way, i can be rational about this as a business journalist and look at the issues for what they are, which is, you know, there are some grains of truth in what the trump administration is saying about trade, manufacturing, jobs, how you might do things differently. we may be in a new era of trade. and it's important for canada to accept that. but when it comes to somebody talking about taking over your country, the feelings you have as a reaction are very journalistic. they're just human. and you get a kind of a moral outrage. so canadians will be fighting some of that. look for it in your tourism data. look for it in people choosing to stay home instead of going south, because you might see more of that, unfortunately. >> i mean, i think this builds to something that that we're seeing in every economic indicator, and it's that trump was lying to his supporters in the country when he said that his initial goals would be a

white hot economy. none of his actions or policies or statements support that goal. what do you make of how far he has gone in damaging the economy that was handed to him, which was by all metrics and all reporting in pretty good shape? >> yeah. >> it's tough. >> so tariffs are taxes paid by american consumers. >> they raise. >> prices for. american businesses and american households. and american businesses and households. >> were. already suffering with. >> high costs. you can see that in egg prices. you can see that in housing prices. you can see that in childcare prices. trump administration promised to tackle the cost of living crisis. and this is going to make it worse. we're starting to see some degradation in real economic data and a really huge step down in consumer sentiment. all of that points to an economy that is softening, and the trade war is not going to help that at all. the huge shift in market

sentiment, i think, is a big part of this that's going to affect people who were saving up to purchase a home. it's affecting business investment. if you look at the manufacturing surveys, many, many companies have said that until they have clarity, they are not going to make major investment decisions, such as building a factory in the united states or expanding into a new area. because the climate of uncertainty is so high. so i think this is a very perilous time for the economy. notably, also, the trump administration has started to make large cuts to the federal workforce and rescind federal contracts. and we haven't seen that show up in the jobs data yet. but it's expected to show up starting next month. >> annie, the white house spokeswoman, made the exact opposite claim about tariffs. and i want to show it to you. and then i want to ask you about this strategy of up is down and down is up. >> tariffs are a tax hike on foreign countries that again have been ripping us off. tariffs are a tax cut for the

american people. and the president is a staunch advocate of tax cuts. as you know he campaigned on no taxes on tips no taxes on overtime, no taxes on social security benefits. he is committed to all three of those things, and he expects congress to pass them later. this. >> i'm sorry. have you ever paid a tariff? because i have. they don't. >> get charged on. >> foreign companies. they get charged. on the importers. >> and ultimately, when we have fair and balanced trade, which the american people have not seen in decades, as i said at the beginning, revenues will stay here, wages will go up and our country will be made wealthy again. and i think, think it's insulting that you are trying to test my knowledge of economics and the decisions that this president has made. i'm now regret giving a question to the associated press. >> i mean, she's awash in regret and remorse and offense, but she's either tragically uninformed or lying. there is no economist that's been tapped to sit in donald trump's cabinet who would testify under oath to

what she just said, quote, tariffs are a tax cut for the american people. simply the opposite is reality. why do you think they're on such a furious propaganda mission around the tariffs? >> i think that donald trump has a very, very unusual, idiosyncratic and completely incorrect understanding of how tariffs work. you can look at economists everywhere, from the libertarian cato institute to the left of center think tanks in republican and democratic administrations, aside from the trump administration. and they all agree that tariffs function as tax increases on consumers. what happens with a tariff is that companies importing pay the cost of the tariff, and they mostly pass those costs on to consumers can go look at corporate earnings calls. and they all say that tariffs function this way. so, you know, i think that this comes from

trump himself who has for decades now held this unusual understanding of tariffs. but it doesn't make it real. it doesn't make it true. and we already have companies saying that they will have no choice but to pass some of the cost increases on. and again, these are not companies that are heavily politically aligned. some of the companies that have been most concerned about the tariffs are heavy industrial companies concerned about the cost of steel, aluminum and other manufacturing inputs. so as much as trump believes this, it's simply not true. and american consumers are finding that out right now. >> claire, there are some lies that they tell the woman from the podium and trump and vance and others that we deal with our own exasperation and consternation. we call it earth-one and earth-two. but there are other lies they tell that they can't get away with because their own supporters lived reality, defy the lie. so

the price of eggs is up. people's retirement savings of their near retirement age have cratered. people who derive anxiety or hope from the way the markets go are awash in anxiety, not hope and trump. if you compare trump to trump, trump is way off the mark from where he was the first time around. he has cratered his own economy. why? >> i think he's got. obviously a misplaced sense of. >> his power. >> and frankly, i think he really has a misplaced sense of whether or not people. >> respect him. >> you know, there's two ways to create fear in politics. one way to create fear is to gain the respect of both your allies and your adversaries. and you do that with by strong. consistent leadership. the other way to create fear is. through instability and chaos. and

that's the fear he's creating and what he's in. he's electing more progressive leaders across the globe right now than, frankly, ever would have happened without him. he is politically pushing people away from conservatism because they see it as now a trump thing. i'm in germany right now, and i can tell you, the people i've interacted with in the short time i've been here, they are scratching their head. they do not understand. >> what has happened. >> in america. and i think at home, his base. he won the part of our economy that struggles the most, the paycheck to paycheck people are suffering and he is not helping them. he is hurting them. that does not on all these fronts. he is not going to gain ground politically. and he may not realize it now, but he will eventually. >> claire, the piece about annexing canada, a friend and a

neighbor who has never done anything to offend any american or any american politician who has only helped us in national security crises and as an economic partner, trading and otherwise contrasted with the things he said about vladimir putin. and i'll quote him, quote, he and i have been through a lot together. end quote. you can't separate the two, right? it's not just the animosity for our closest friends on the world stage from a national security perspective and an economic one, but it is also the fawning, pandering and affinity and affection for our greatest adversaries. what, at this mark 51 days do you think explains that? >> i think he sees power as his ultimate, ultimate objective. he is not a student of the constitution. he doesn't understand the value of checks and. >> balances in our system. >> and he thinks. >> executive orders.

>> is the way to make him an autocrat. like putin, like xi, like all of these guys that he is sucking up to who don't allow their people to have a voice. i mean, the idea that he's trying to deport someone who is legally in this country because he disagrees with him. i mean, think about that for a minute and think about the whole thing of saying he's going to make canada the 51st state. what, is he going to go to war with canada? does he think the american people are going to put up with us losing lives to try to take canada, because canada is not going to do it ever, ever, ever willingly. so the only way you do it is by force. is he going to do to canada what putin has done to ukraine? i mean, that's the logical consequence of what he's saying, and it's crazy. sorry. >> it's okay. it's 417. someone had to say it. amanda, i guess i'll give you the last word. >> it's it. it's 9:00 in in munich. >> so i've got. i've got.

>> an excuse. >> it's always 9:00. >> at night. >> it's always 9:00 somewhere. you can always say it here. if bill barr can say it, the seal has been broken. i mean, amanda, i'll come back to you. are canadians prepared for that possibility? what claire just articulated is the natural extension of demanding the annexation of another nation. >> i will tell you that canadians are pretty firmly opposed to any such plan, and i don't even want to give it enough credibility to say what canadians would do, myself included, if it came to that. but let's just assume we don't have to, that there's all kinds of checks and balances standing between us and that worst outcome. in the meantime, a lot of damage can be done. and just as you know, your tariffs are paid by your citizens and businesses, our counter tariffs are paid by ours. so the economic damage is real. it's already happening. and the uncertainty for business is already doing untold damage. we now have a risk of recession on both sides of the border that we didn't have six months ago. and

so whatever the outcome on that front, the economic damage is very real. as for the rest of it, i'm just going to continue to hope that cooler heads prevail and we don't actually wind up in the kind of situation that is that worst case scenario. >> six weeks ago, it was unimaginable that we'd be having this conversation. amanda and annie, thank you so much for starting us off. as a reward slash punishment, claire has to stay for the hour when we come back breaking this afternoon. employees at the department of education have been told to leave their washington offices by 6 p.m. that's in about an hour and 40 minutes from right now. we'll ask our journalists what officials are saying. the reason for that is next. plus, elon musk saying it loud and clear he intends to do away with the big one, the big one being the benefits. millions and millions and millions of americans who have worked their whole lives for, depend on. and he's spreading a wave of conspiracy theories so that he can go in and gut all of it. and

later in the broadcast, another now ex justice department official calling out the trump administration for what smells to her a whole lot like political corruption, saying she was fired for not rubber stamping. the restoration of actor mel gibson's gun rights. we'll have all those stories and more when deadline white house more when deadline white house continues my life is full of questions... how do i clean an aioli stain? use tide. do i need to pretreat guacamole? not with tide. why do we even buy napkins? thankfully, tide's the answer to almost all of them. —do crabs have eyebrows? —except that one. for all of life's laundry questions... it's got to be tide. replace. >> nobody likes. >> a cracked. >> windshield. but at least you can go to safelite. com and schedule a fix in minutes. go to schedule a fix in minutes. go to where ya headed? susan: where am i headed? am i just gonna take what the markets gives me? no. i can do some research. ya know, that's backed by j.p. morgan's leading strategists like us.

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i saw a prevagen commercial and i did some research on it. i started taking prevagen about three years ago. i've told my coworkers and family, since taking prevagen, how much of a difference it's made in my life. i feel really good. prevagen. for your brain. critical first 100 days, rachel maddow is on five nights a. >> week more than ever. >> this is not a time to pretend this isn't happening. >> the rachel maddow show weeknights at nine on msnbc. >> what we do is. >> try to. >> cut right. >> to the. bone of. >> what we're seeing in washington. >> that day. >> the sun is breaking this hour. we want to tell you about department of education. employees have been told today to vacate the building for security reasons, starting at 6 p.m. this evening. that's

according to a memo sent to all employees. the memo did not state what the security reason was that required employees to vacate at 6 p.m. today. the employees were told to take their laptops home with them, according to the memo. the building will reopen on thursday. it comes as the department of education is already reckoning with large scale cuts from elon musk. donald trump has also threatened to shutter the agency entirely. let's bring in my friend and colleague, nbc news white house correspondent vaughn hillyard. vaughn, what do you know? >> there's a lot to track. agency to agency, department to department. right now, nicole, it's frankly kind of difficult to hear, but i know at this point in time that there have been workforce reductions planned across departments and agencies beyond just the probationary employees, folks that are working in the federal government for a year or two. we're talking about potentially 20, 30, 40% reductions that were planned across the board. and we

saw from health and human services department this weekend, email go out to all hhs employees, the 80,000 employees, essentially offering them another buyout opportunity, a $25,000 stipend to leave their jobs. we talked to many federal workers who regretted not taking the first round of buyout offers because those probationary employees, for example, were fired just days later with no severance. so essentially, these off ramps have been presented again. but they've been told that federal government workers should expect major workforce reduction. and of course, it's not standard operating procedure for department employees to be told to not come into the office here. we do not know at this time if there is a plan for a mass firing at the department of education. yet at the same time, they have given plenty of indications from the president of the united states to the secretary of education, linda mcmahon herself, that workers should be prepared for of the dismantling of the department. so i think this is notable heading into the night. >> so what is the security concern about? is it

misdirection or. i mean, i worked in the white house after september 11th, and a security concern was usually imminent, not something noticed 24 hours prior. >> right. and it was about a week ago, actually. there are also questions about the department of housing and urban development. there were metal detectors that were having all employees go through, and there were lines about three blocks long for employees just to get into the workplace. last week, the exact security concerns were never articulated or stated by the department and from the department of education at this point in time. nicole, we don't have answers either. and so it is it is quite something that these sort of decisions are being made. but we have a very few specifics on exactly why the decisions are being executed the way that they are. >> let me also ask you something. from my vantage point, as a former white house employee, about shredding and destroying documents, this was not only unethical, but i think

illegal. but nbc news is reporting this. usaid staff is being told to shred and burn all their classified documents, quote, the us agency for international development is instructing its staff in washington to shred and burn documents, according to an email obtained by nbc news. the document destruction was set to take place tuesday, according to an email from erica carr, the agency's acting executive secretary. quote, shred as many documents first and reserve the burn bags for when the shredder becomes unavailable or needs a break, carr wrote. i, i worked in government for almost a decade. i've never heard of so much shredding being required that you would know ahead of time that, quote, the shredder would become unavailable or need a break. what is that about? >> right. i actually this morning i got a message from somebody who left usaid earlier this year and passed along this email to me. and my response is, naturally, is this standard operating procedure. and this

individual said no, that they had never heard about burning or shredding of federal records at usaid. but then again, this individual told me they've never heard of the entire agency being gutted. and their headquarters at the ronald reagan building being shut down. when our documents, you know, burned by the state department or usaid, typically at an embassy, when it is about to be overtaken, marines have the authorization as a means of ensuring that classified records and personnel data do not get in the hands of individuals, of who are seen as threats. they do go and burn documents. but that's not what this situation is here. and i was talking to a national security records lawyer here who has already sent to the national archives a demand to have the records stopped from being destroyed. we should note that this was all taking place today here, in the way that this lawyer put it to me was that this is, number one, a violation of the federal records act. but

number two, that there is a standard operating procedure when it comes to processing records. and unless all of these records were digitized or there was a clarity that, for example, records older than ten years old that have been appropriately deemed by necessary officials is no longer having to be archived, may be terminated. those can then be ultimately destroyed. but this email is very explicit to these individuals who received it. quote. shred as many documents first and reserve the burn bags for when the shredder becomes unavailable or needs a break. they were directed to go and clear out these classified safes and personnel documents from what used to be usaid headquarters and marco rubio, the state department that is now overseeing usaid. they just earlier this week said that 83% of the contracts that usaid oversaw have been eliminated. and the way that usaid official suggested to me is that if they're truly trying to get rid of waste, fraud and abuse, many

of these documents would have records as to exactly where payments have gone and how contracts have ultimately been executed across the across the world. and so if you are shredding and burning these documents, you are effectively removing a paper trail that could be paramount to actually understanding how usaid has executed and used its capacities overseas. and so much of that could be understood by these archived documents that were clearly been ordered today to be burned and destroyed. >> extraordinary developments on both fronts. vaughn hillyard, you're doing a stellar job tracking all of these developments. thank you for joining us to talk about them. >> that's right. >> up next for us, elon musk drawing another line in what's looking like a very public break in donald trump's maga base, what he's saying about benefits in the country that is sure to find him on the other side of steve bannon again. we'll bring have you always had stetrouble with your weight? ng you that story

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can also deplete coq10 levels. that's what my doctor recommended. qanon coq10 qanon has the number one cardiologist recommended form of coq10. kunal. the brand i trust. >> buying a car. >> is. >> kind of a big deal. >> you need. >> to see all the options. >> see. >> she. >> knows cargurus gives. >> you the. >> most new and used cars right in. >> your hand. >> so you know your big deal is the best deal. >> cargurus the number. >> one most visited car shopping. site until we see the math. and i mean hundreds of billions of dollars of cuts, hundreds of billions of dollars of cuts. and stop whining about entitlements. get into that discretionary spending. get into the pentagon. get into medicaid. medicaid. you got to be careful because a lot of megas on medicaid. i'm telling you, if you don't think so, you are dead wrong. medicaid is going to be a complicated one. just can't take a meat ax to it. although i would love to.

>> paging donald trump. your boys are fighting again. the co-president to donald trump so far has been the chainsaw wielding elon musk, and he is now seemingly ready to take his chainsaw to programs. the steve bannon is talking about their programs that, in his words, affect many mangas. i guess that means maga voters. more importantly, millions of americans depend on them. that's why they've been called the third rail of american politics for generations. here's what elon musk said on fox news about cutting spending. >> most of the federal spending is entitlements. so that that's that's like the big one to eliminate is that's the sort of half trillion, maybe 6 or 700 billion a year. that is also a mechanism by which the democrats attract and retain illegal immigrants, by essentially paying them to come here and then turning them into voters. >> guy on the right knows that isn't true. he actually worked

in the government. but to elon musk he says yes. so the entitlements that elon musk speaks of, the widely utilized and very popular social security, medicare and medicaid, they are so essential that trump himself, trump's the one that has repeatedly vowed to never, ever, ever touch them. as for elon musk, conspiracy theories about democrats and others using the program to attract undocumented migrants and immigrants, there's no proof of that. undocumented immigrants are not eligible for benefits, although many do pay into the system to the tune of more than $25 billion a year, according to the new york times. and while the white house now claims that elon musk was actually talking about something else cutting waste, polling last year revealed that 53% of americans expect to rely on social security as a source of income. as of march of this year, more than 68 million americans receive health insurance coverage from medicare, and as of october of last year, more than 70 million americans are

enrolled in medicaid. that's about 1 in 5 americans who rely on this program for all their health care. joining our coverage, msnbc political analyst, host of the bulwark podcast, tim miller is here as well. tim, you're always here for a million different reasons, but one of them specifically, and i know you're coming back from from the flu, so thank you for being here. is sort of reading between the bannon musk i think what's public is friction. but i think what's obvious is, is disdain. steve bannon now talking publicly about how these cuts will deeply impact and hurt members of the maga base. what is his concern? >> well, thanks. >> nicole. >> and i'm feeling better. i'm sounding. >> maybe a little more. >> masculine and gravelly than usual, but. >> i'm doing my best. i think. >> look, bannon actually, for all of his flaws. >> so you hate to see what to praise steve bannon. >> especially because he watches. >> about as much msnbc as anybody out there. >> but for all of. >> his flaws.

>> steve bannon. >> actually understands. >> maga voters. they're his listeners. he speaks. >> to them. he knows. >> what their interests are. elon musk is not right. elon musk is a plutocrat that is. >> totally out. >> of touch with the interests of anybody, except for the weirdos. >> that. >> are tweeting at him. >> right. and so while you know there is an alignment among. >> all of the wings. of maga. and conservatism and even former conservatism and even some democrats about how we need to streamline the. >> government, right. >> like there's a huge 80% of the country agrees on that, like the devil is in the details. and elon musk, i just want to tear everything down. i want to bring a sledgehammer to it. i don't actually care who we hurt. i don't actually care if poor people are hurt. i will call veterans traitors on the internet, you know, anything to just wield more power. for myself, like bannon understands that that that means that that is going to meet some problems for the parts of the government that interfaces with maga

americans. and that's a lot of parts of the government, because the red states are the ones that takes more take more money, actually. and there's a lot of working class maga americans that are on medicaid. there's a lot of older ones that are on medicare. and so, you know, i think that the lack of delicacy to be as nice as possible, with which elon musk has dealt with this, is not really in tune with where even maga voters are. and as a result, you're seeing people turn away from them or get upset at the trump administration. and that is something that goes against what, you know, bannon wants that goes against their long term mission. and he's over here looking at this and he's like, who is this immigrant billionaire that's screwing everything up? >> well i mean, and i think politically it's even more cataclysmic than that. right? i mean, that's the view from from where bannon sits. but politically and we've been covering this, this war between musk and bannon with fervent interest because because of its political consequences for whatever comes next in the

democratic party. but you see, bernie sanders, bernie sanders acti and sticky political most movements in the country. if you go back to 16. right. and the reason and the and the reason, bernie voters second choice in a lot of interviews in 2016 was donald trump was because of the bannon ism of it, the populist stuff. when trump chose the musk, trump was at a fork in the road right after inauguration, and he chose musk, and he's doubled down on musk and tripled. and he's now, you know, to use the term, musk would understand. nine months pregnant with elon musk chainsaw. and i think that what is so politically relevant here is that it's too late. i mean, the guy who described social security as a ponzi scheme is now in charge. and the populism bucket of ideas and energy. i think if bannon had prevailed, we would be talking about maga diversifying through gender through age, through, you know, adding to the coalition more and

more support among latino voters and african american voters. instead, donald trump is going to be defending an acronym called doge or doge or dog that no one knows how to say or what it means. and an oligarchy. it is a political calamity. if the democrats can figure out how to message around it. >> absolutely, because it touches all of those voters, right? i mean, it touches some maga voters who will end up being turned off and not voting. maybe they aren't gettable for democrats. it'll it'll touch those bernie voters that you're talking about who will be repelled by this version of the republican party and go back into the democratic party. it's going to turn out normie democrats who are upset, who, you know, either have experienced themselves or just empathy for, you know, government workers and the people that are being targeted by, you know, the doge, the doge cuts. so, you know, look, look, it is there's no political really upside to it, except for the fact that elon musk has

spent a quarter billion dollars on the campaign to help elect donald trump. and donald trump knows that he can use elon musk as a hammer to intimidate members of congress. and this in this narrow congress who get out of line and he can threaten to primary them with this huge bucket of money. and i think that donald trump also, you know, is a guy that is obviously very thin skinned and likes to be sucked up to. and there's something about elon being the richest guy in the world, sucking up to him that really appeals to his narcissism and his ego. so because of donald trump's narcissism, because of his desire to keep elon's war chest on his side, it is absolutely a massive, you know, political loss. you can see it right now in elon's poll numbers, but that's just an early indicator. all those numbers are coming from trump. unless something changes drastically with the economy. >> yeah, i mean and democrats are ready to jump. i want to press claire on that. on the other side of a very short break. don't go anywhere.

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>> republicans are going to target people's social security and medicare benefits. >> the outrage. >> that the richest man in the world. >> would tell. >> millions of seniors. who depend on those checks each month. that it's fraud, that it's. waste is. >> outrageous. he doesn't have any idea. >> the harm it would do. >> and it isn't fraud. >> claire. it's a start. how do democrats take this issue to the country and the people? >> well, it's a little tricky because everyone believes there's waste and abuse and fraud in government. and there is some. so what they're doing is they're using waste, fraud. >> and abuse. >> as the trojan horse to come. >> in and. really impact essential programs. >> that the maga base relies on. so some of this is being careful about the messaging until those

cuts hit home. and they will i mean, what he's doing right now, he's closing down social security offices. well, local democrats should be highlighting that on the local news. there should be a press conference out in front of the local offices that are shutting down, where people go to get help to make sure they get their social security benefits as they are entitled to, since they paid into the system. referencing musk as somebody who believes social security is a ponzi scheme is the cleanest way to get at this problem. and of course, the house is going to have a big problem when they try to actually do this budget because they are going to have to cut medicaid. the math is cruel. they have to cut medicaid. and as tim referenced earlier, more people per capita are on medicaid in red america than blue america. rural areas are going to suffer the most. 40% of america's. children are on the children's health insurance program through the

medicaid funding. and so families are all of a sudden going to be hit with the reality that they are not going to be able to get the health care they rely on, and that's going to really hurt. and in the meantime, i just want democrats to be careful and not come off like they don't want to cut waste in government. there's plenty of ways to do that effectively. they're not named elon musk. >> i mean, i feel like it's part of the program that we should devote to the fact check. i mean, here are the facts. tens of millions of dead people are not getting social security checks. despite claims from donald trump and his address to congress and elon musk every time he sits down in front of a camera. this is from the ap quote, a july 2024 report from social security's inspector general states that from fiscal year 2015 to 2022, the agency paid out $8.6 trillion in benefits, less than 1% were paid in improper payments. claire, what is the democrats priority

here? is it to defend? it seems that where they get tripped up is defending the institution, defending the agency. if people cared about institutions and agencies, democrats might not have been defeated in november. what what is how do they go about doing what you just described and what steve bannon actually is talking about, talking about the people that will be hurt from these massive cuts? >> yeah, they have to quit talking about protecting people who work. >> for the government. >> and instead talk about protecting people. >> who receive essential services from the. >> government. and, and, and the other thing they can do is they should, you know, the best defense is an offense. they should have some shadow hearings about gao nicole. i mean, here's a dirty little secret that elon musk is clueless about. the general accountability office does report after report, dozens and dozens of them a year that actually point out places where we can save money. effectively.

they should be leading with that, the democrats and saying we don't believe social security is a ponzi scheme, but we are not against finding ways to make the government work better for you, because after all, it's your money they're spending. i think this idea that they just are knee jerk supporting the institutions is not going to get them where they need to be. they need to laser focus on the people that are living paycheck to paycheck, and how elon musk's plan is going to dramatically impact their lives. >> smart words from both of you, tim miller and claire mccaskill. thank you for that. today. next for us, a possible break in the standoff between the trump standoff between the trump administration and our ally for more than a decade farxiga has been trusted again and again, and again. [crowd chant] far-xi-ga ask your doctor about farxiga. ♪♪ ever since they got directv, they don't miss a game—

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>> you. it's always. >> we're going to start with breaking news on capitol hill. >> mounting questions over the future of tiktok. >> in the u.s. >> president trump has promised to. carry out. >> the. largest deportation force. >> in american history. >> reporting from. >> philadelphia. >> el. >> paso and the palisades. >> virginia. from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. >> i want to protect the women of our country. i want to protect the women. sir, please don't say that. why? they said we think it's. we think it's very inappropriate for you to say. say why? i'm president. i want to protect the women of our country. they said, sir, i just think it's inappropriate for you to say. pay these guys a lot of

money. can you believe it? and he said, well, i'm going to do it whether the women like it or not. >> we were warned. hi again everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. it was actually one of donald trump's closing arguments in the 2024 election that he would, quote, protect the women, whether they like it or not. fast forward a few months, and here's what apparently that meant at the time. a u.s. pardon attorney elizabeth oyer, was fired on friday, the day after she refused to recommend that gun ownership rights for donald trump's longtime supporter, the actor mel gibson, be restored. mel gibson lost his right to purchase or own a handgun after 2011 domestic violence misdemeanor conviction. mel gibson, who trump recently named as an ambassador to hollywood, is one of many individuals with allegations or charges of domestic abuse or sexual misconduct that this president has associated with or defended publicly. meanwhile, as the new york times reports, quote,

elizabeth oyer, the former pardon attorney, described the sequence of events as an alarming departure from longstanding practice, one that put public safety and the justice department's integrity at risk. a doj official familiar with the matter told nbc news that the gibson case played no role in her being fired, but a second official said that oya's termination quote is part of a very concerning set of personnel moves across the federal government and at doj. i don't know how much of what happened to liz was a failure to toe the line about a specific thing, but systematically, the political leadership of this administration is doing their best to take away the institutional guardrails. end quote. oyer described a climate of fear at the department of justice, saying in a statement, this quote, unfortunately, experienced professionals throughout the department are afraid to voice their opinions because dissent is being punished. decisions are being made based on relationships and loyalty, not based on facts or

expertise or sound analysis, which is very alarming given that what is at stake is our public safety, end quote. so where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. new york times justice department reporter devlin barrett is here. his byline is on that reporting we just read from. also joining us, writer and editor for protect democracy. amanda carpenter is here. and with me at the table, msnbc legal analyst, former s.d.n.y. criminal division deputy chief christie greenberg here. christie, you know miss oyer personally. tell us what kind of lawyer she is and what kind of career she's had at the department. >> i recall. >> her from. >> law school. >> i didn't know. >> her personally, but i. >> knew of her because she was among the best in our class. she was at the top of the class. >> she was. >> on the harvard. >> law review. >> and she was in moot court, voted the best. >> oralist, which. >> i remember that argument. >> i remember. >> attending that argument. this is somebody who is really the top of the legal. >> profession.

>> somebody who's. >> not going to go into. >> any situation and really make. >> kind. >> of snap judgments or make a decision based on who is close to the president. she's going to look at the facts, look at the law, and make the best assessment. that's what she did here today, and she got fired for it. >> devlin, i want to read more from your reporting on this, which stunned as it came across the wire. you report this quote in a brief email. she responded to her justice department superiors that she could not recommend that the attorney general restore mr. gibson's gun rights. several hours later, she got a call from a senior justice department official and mr. blanche's office who had been working on the issue. the official asked her quote, is your position flexible? it was not, she responded. quote. he then essentially explained to me that mel gibson has a personal relationship with president trump, and that should be sufficient basis for me to make a recommendation, and that i would be wise to make the recommendation, she said. his

tone in the course of the 15 minute discussion shifted from friendly to condescending to bullying, miss hoyer said. in response, she told him that she would, quote, think about whether there was a way we could thread the needle, end quote, take us inside what you and your colleagues are reporting here. >> right. so this all came in the context of an effort within the justice department to find, make, create a list of individuals who were not allowed to own guns because of past convictions. but the government had decided the administration had decided that they should be allowed to once again own guns. and that was a difficult situation, a difficult subject to tackle. and it wasn't really liz hoyer's job to be doing any of this, frankly, as the pardon attorney. but she was asked to do it. so she did it. and then at the at the 11th hour, they threw her this curveball, saying essentially, okay, so now you've got a list. we want you to add mel gibson to it. and her view was, wait, you know, we haven't

talked about his case at all. sheila hoyer was not was was hoyer was not that familiar with his case. and she just it didn't feel right to her, particularly on the question of domestic violence, which a lot of law and law enforcement officials will tell you is a big red flag when it comes to giving people guns back. >> well, not even just domestic violence people, but this version of the united states supreme court agrees. in june of 2024, the supreme court ruled 8 to 1 to uphold a federal law that prohibits people subjected to domestic violence restraining orders from having firearms. clarence thomas was the only dissent. so it's a mainstream, including maga legal position. >> well, and that's part of the reason why it was confusing within the justice department, why there was such an effort to do this, because the supreme court had just ruled on this very topic and seemingly was very comfortable with the law as it currently stands. but what miss hoyer described to us is that there is an effort underway

inside the justice department to change this and essentially create a new ability or a previously unused ability by the justice department itself to give gun rights back to convicts. >> why? >> i think this is a this is a sort of a cause celebre among certain second amendment activists, certain gun rights activists, certain conservatives, but it has not been a winning argument. and it it is not clear that that i am sure that if and when the justice department, the trump administration, starts granting these gun rights back to people, i am sure there will be legal challenges surrounding it. and it's not clear to me that those challenges will be successful. based on, as you said, the supreme court ruling just last year. >> amanda, here are just a smattering of the trump associates or people in his inner circle who he has not purged from his inner circle after questions or accusations

in this sort of category have arisen, politico reported in 2018 that white house aide rob porter resigned after allegations from ex-wives. nbc reported in 2018 about brett kavanaugh accuser for testified she, quote, believed he was going to rape her in january of 2025, the 19th reported. pete hegseth said he settled sexual assault accusation for $50,000, washington post reported in 2017. quote, woman says roy moore initiated sexual encounter when she was 14. he was 32, 2023 espn reported. ufc's dana white apologizes for physical altercation with wife in october of 2017, quote, nbc reports bill o'reilly settled a sexual harassment claim for $32 million. 2023 nbc reported, quote, formerexually abused her4

cnn reported. quote lawsuit alleges linda mcmahon enabled sexual abuse of children, 2024 reuters reported. quote, woman who accused rfk jr of sexual assault says he apologized by text 2024, quote, ap reports. house ethics committee accuses matt gaetz of paying for sex, including with 17 year old girl, back in 2011, people magazine quote reports mel gibson reaches plea deal in domestic violence case. it is not a bug, it is something that exists in multiple instances. >> yeah, i. >> mean. >> it is. >> a fact. >> that allegations, lawsuits. >> stories, documented. >> evidence of sexual assault. >> is. >> not a. >> deal breaker to be in donald trump's inner. >> circle or. >> any degree. >> or enjoy any degree of favored status. >> and, you know, this. >> is not surprising. given what

we saw on january. >> 6th. >> as well. >> i mean. violence is not a deal breaker, especially. >> if that. sort of violence. >> is committed in a way that may advance donald trump's personal. >> or political interests. >> i mean that that is what the january 6th pardons. >> were all about. >> and so this is all a part of that story. >> and, you know. >> this is where it becomes pervasive within the federal government. >> and what we're. >> seeing with what. >> was happened at the department of justice with this. >> favor, i think. >> it's fair to call it a favor that was given to. >> mel gibson. i mean, even in the most generous reading of this. at least his case was advanced to the front of the line in order to have those rights restored. >> and so. >> i mean, first of all, i think we should thank the attorney who spoke out about this and gave us this, her real time version of events, of what happened. i'm thankful that we still live in a country where we have reporting where we can discuss. >> this. >> because this is part and parcel of. >> how we are.

>> seeing donald trump turn the. government into a kind of mad king. >> machine where every. >> every resource. >> that you. >> can. >> think of. >> that. >> comes within his control. >> can be. >> used as a. carrot or. >> stick or. punishment to reward or punish people. >> as. >> he pleases. >> right. >> that's what we're seeing. >> you know. >> he sees. >> mel gibson as an ally. >> who can help. >> him have. >> clout in hollywood. so therefore, go. >> to the front of the. >> line, your. >> rights can be restored. and this. >> is happening not only in the department of. >> justice, but. system wide. >> i mean. >> this is this is. >> what autocracy is apart is about. and we have to, you know. before the election, it was hypothetical. talking about like, well, these bad. things could. happen if. >> you have an. >> autocrat in office. >> this is. >> what is happening. >> in real time. the mad. >> king government. >> is bad. >> for the. >> economy. >> as we're seeing. it's bad for national. >> security. >> it's bad. >> for social issues. and it's raining down on throughout the

government. >> in a way that. >> privileges his allies and punishes everyone else. >> there is something really amazing in the new york times reporting that puts us inside the room. i want to read this again. she went into mr. blanche's office. the person who basically runs the. department and was asked by an official, is your position flexible? it is not. quote. he then essentially explained to me, mel gibson has a personal relationship with trump. that should be sufficient basis. his tone in the course of the 15 minute discussion shifted from friendly to condescending to bullying. according to miss hoyer. that's not normal. >> no. >> none of this is normal. just taking a step. >> back and looking. >> back at the facts. >> of the mel. >> gibson case. he pled. no contest to these charges. the charges from his former girlfriend were that he

threatened her with a gun while she held her infant daughter, right, and that he broke two of her teeth and that he gave her a black eye. so this was vicious. there was an infant that was present. i mean, this is exactly the kind of person who should not have a gun, ever. i mean, no prosecutor worth their salt. would look at this. >> and say. >> based on. >> those facts. >> that this is somebody who should have their gun ownership rights restored. this is exactly the kind of person who shouldn't. i mean, the only lethal weapon mel gibson should own is a copy of the movie dvd. dvd. right. like this is insane. and the fact that this conversation happens and there's no discussion of the facts, there's no hey, you know, these other facts are redeeming or in his favor. it's just the fact that he has the relationship. >> with donald trump. >> that's it. and that should be sufficient. that's what she's told me while she's going through a list of everybody else saying doing a significant

investigation to figure out, hey, is this somebody who would reoffend? how old are their convictions? the kinds of things prosecutors typically look at to figure out would this be the just result? but donald trump and his crew are not interested in the just result. they are. interested in whatever it is that is going to please donald trump. they are nothing more than minions just doing his bidding. and that is not what the department of justice is all about. it's all about prosecutors using their personal judgment, trying to figure out what the right thing is to do. all they're trying to figure out is how to please the king. >> when this was a media story in 2018, for some of those headlines i read before, here's what donald trump had to say about his position on domestic violence. >> thank you. we're leaving. >> make your. >> way home. >> to domestic violence. and everybody here knows that i am totally opposed to domestic violence of any kind. everyone knows that. and it almost

wouldn't even have to be said. so now you hear it, but you all know it. >> and again, let me just contrast that, amanda, with some of the reporting that nbc news has done on this. shortly after trump took office, the new leadership of the justice department, including the offices of the solicitor general and the deputy attorney general, indicated that restoring gun rights to previously convicted felons was a top priority. federal law bars federal law bars people convicted of crimes, including misdemeanors, state domestic violence, from owning or purchasing handguns. a senior justice department official questioned the decision, quote, the fact that this was the number one thing they wanted to address was bizarre, said the official, who asked not to be named, just adding that to the times. fantastic reporting on this. again, this wasn't an oversight. this was intentional. >> yeah. and to be clear. you can. >> have a legitimate. debate about restoring gun rights to

people. but that's not. >> what is the. >> pattern that's being established here. >> that's so alarming. >> it's the fact. >> that donald. >> trump tolerates. >> encourages. >> stokes violence at all levels, right? whether it's as. political rallies, whether he is bringing people. >> into. his inner. >> circle to work on. >> behalf of the government, whether he's having an ambassador to hollywood, i mean. >> just as a. >> base level, why. >> is he choosing mel gibson. >> to be his ambassador to hollywood. given the facts that. >> we know. >> about this case? right. >> that is alarming. >> but that. is exactly the. >> kind. >> of person. >> that. >> he welcomes into his circle. >> because i think it. >> establishes a sort of willingness to. >> do those things and then remain in the public eye. >> where no degree of. >> shame can get them to back down. i think they see that as a. >> kind of selling point. >> and quite frankly, that's an. >> alarming kind of litmus. >> test for any kind of public service, whether it's just an ambassador. name only or. >> something far more

consequential. >> yeah. and this isn't just a story about a celebrity or an actor. victims of domestic violence are often retraumatized by these kinds of stories. let me share what justice sonia sotomayor wrote in her concurring opinion. the government has a compelling interest in keeping firearms out of the hands of domestic abusers. a woman who lives in a house with a domestic abuser is five times more likely to be murdered if the abuser has access to a gun. with more than 70 people shot and killed by an intimate partner each month in the united states, the seriousness of the problem can hardly be overstated, because domestic violence is rarely confined to the intimate partner that receives the protective order. the government's interest extends even further in roughly a quarter of cases where an abuser kills an intimate partner, the abuser also killed someone else, such as a child, a family member, or a roommate. >> these are really, really horrific cases, and they're really hard to see through

because oftentimes i can't tell you how many times i had a situation where the victim would come forward and there would be so terrified that they would recant or not want to proceed to go to court and have and have the charges actually seen through in a proceeding. they didn't want to testify because they were so afraid. so for a victim that has the courage to go through this proceeding and actually make those statements under oath, and then to have, you know, a result, a resolution where this person is found guilty or there's no contest. and then to have it essentially just not matter because this person can pick up a gun yet again, it's making a mockery of that victim's pain and suffering. and really understating the, you know, the real, real risk of danger that they face going forward. if that person has a gun, again. >> in this case described by the times and nbc is a top priority, we need all of you to stick

around much more with everyone. as the trump administration goes about the business of dismantling and changing the rule of law means in this country. also ahead for us, amid a quickly spreading measles outbreak, the head of the department of health and human services, robert f kennedy jr, is now blaming the disease on poor diets. while families in west texas, where measles is on the rise right now, are embracing kennedy's fringe theories about how to treat the disease, things like vitamin a and cod liver oil all of it happening as the nih is terminating studies about why vaccine hesitancy is on the rise. we'll get to all that reporting later in the hour. deadline. white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. >> kids. i'm sure you're wondering why your mother and i asked you here tonight. >> it's because it's a buffet of all you can eat. >> butterfly shrimp. >> and sirloin steak? >> yes. >> that is. >> the reason i. >> thought it's because i made varsity. >> you did? >> of course you did.

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drop every tuesday. >> we're back with devlin, amanda and kristy. devlin, you and your colleagues have had extraordinary reporting on what amounted to a standoff with danielle sassoon. someone with strong conservative credibility and emil bob, donald trump's sort of enforcer inside the department. and now your byline is on this incredible reporting of miss oyer and her seeming standoff with mr. blanche. is it just coincidence that these two women ended up at odds with these new leaders of the department? or is there something going on where they're where they're picking on or targeting, or women have ended up at odds with some of these figures? >> i mean, look, there's a lot of women lawyers in the department of justice that have senior jobs. i think if you're asking me for what the pattern

is, i would say the pattern that we can see so far is one of sharp disagreements with a lot of senior career level officials. so and in the department, it's sometimes hard for outsiders to understand this. but, you know, the department has a very thin top layer of political appointees. but a lot of the people who do the most important work and make the most important recommendations inside the department are that sort of senior career level folks who've been there for years and years and years and are drawing on their experience in past cases. and it's that level of very experienced and, frankly, very apolitical leadership that has really found itself under fire at times from the trump administration leaders at the top of the department. >> what is the sense of all these firings are are the new political leaders of the department happy that attorneys like danielle sassoon and

mazoyer have left? or do they do they do they view their their departures as messages and signals to the rest of the workforce, or do they understand they're weakened by what you describe as that very experienced layer underneath the political leadership departing? >> i think what they have conveyed in writing and sometimes verbally, is that the career should do what they're told to do, that this is this is not a place where dissent is going to be tolerated for very long within the department. and dissent is almost not the right word for some of these things. because remember, most, this is a hard thing again, for people outside the department to understand. but most decisions at the department of justice aren't made by a senior political official saying, i want you down there to go charge that person. they're actually made by people down the chain careers, opening cases, investigating cases, presenting

cases to grand juries and then making a recommendation to the political leadership, saying, here's what i think we have. here's what i think the facts and the law are, and here's what i think we should do. you saw in the adams case, which you mentioned with danielle sassoon, that whole process ended up going very, very sideways, very fast once the new trump administration folks came in because they wanted to just kill the case. this if that practice becomes the norm, you're going to have a completely different department of justice going forward. >> i mean, amanda, i think devlin, either wittingly or unwittingly, just perfectly articulated the politicization of the department of justice. and to his point, it's not dissent at all. it's people that refuse to ban the rule of law. i mean, danielle sassoon didn't didn't dissent. she just refused to drop a case when she said there was no legal or factual basis for dropping the case. it was simply the quid pro quo on border enforcement. and miss brewer didn't dissent. she just

said there's no factual predicate for restoring mel gibson's gun rights. what is the department of justice in this incarnation right now? >> well, it seems to. >> me the department. >> of justice is being used as the. >> primary force. trump's preferred. >> weapon to target perceived. adversaries and. >> reward his allies. >> right. >> this is this. >> is the favor machine. >> government where. >> it the law. >> as we. >> knew it. >> is being. >> as a meme. >> being used as a means to discipline the public. >> to send the signal. >> that you need to stay on trump's good side. >> to stay on the. >> good side of the law. >> now. >> that is contrary. >> to everything that we've understood and. >> embraced and advocated. >> for the law to. >> be. >> but that that is what. >> authoritarianism gets you. and as to. the question. >> of whether. >> trump cares about whether. experienced people. >> stay at these. >> departments. >> i don't think they do. i

mean, when it comes to. >> autocracies. >> having inexperienced people who actually don't understand. >> the law. >> and the rules. >> and why. >> they were. >> there to. benefit the country is. >> an advantage. >> for the authoritarian because they are just all the more easily able to just follow. >> orders. >> right? >> they know. >> no other way. and that's something that i. really concerned about. >> even down. >> the road. >> if somehow. we manage. >> to weather this storm. is that. there is a whole. >> generation of young conservatives, republicans, whatever you want to call them. who are. being taught that this is the way. that you win, this. >> is the. >> way you govern. donald trump had a mandate from. >> the. people to do whatever he wants. forget the constitution. we're post-constitutional now. i mean, that's actually. >> something that's being passed off as. >> some kind of new. >> form of. intellectual ism, and maybe you can call it that. >> but it. >> certainly is not compatible with. >> the foundations. >> of government that have made this country so great to date.

>> well, and even at a i feel like it always falls to me to dumb things down. but even at a dumber political level, everyone wanted order and donald trump gutting the agency in charge of law enforcement is the way to guarantee disorder. >> absolutely. the idea that you would have people at the top of the fbi talking about defunding the fbi and handing some of that money over to other agencies, that would never happen. i mean, this is the preeminent law enforcement agency in the country that is in charge of investigating federal crimes, the most serious crimes. and you would just never hear that from somebody who had been a career agent. and you're not going to hear those kind of things from career prosecutors, too, who need all the help and resources that they can get. it is it's a really hard time. and you have especially like hearing it with mazoyer and then with s.d.n.y over the weekend. it's not just that they want them out, they

want to humiliate them on the way out. this idea that they're, you know, miss hoyer was told, oh, here's a letter from todd blanch. and it's handed to her by two security officers who watch her pack her things like she's some target. >> take. >> some, like. >> sticky pads. >> i mean, it is the point is really to humiliate them and make them feel small and send the message to everybody else there. this is what happens if you don't get in line. this is what happens if you dare to disagree. if you don't adopt our recommendations and do things the way we want them done, it's a loyalty test. each of these situations has been a loyalty test from the top, and if you fail, you're out. >> well, it's an incredible piece of reporting. and if there's a silver lining, it's that we know the story. so for that, devlin, we thank you and your colleagues for telling it. amanda carpenter and kristy greenberg, thank you for spending time with us on this. when we come back. measles cases continue to grow all across our country, and so do robert f kennedy's fringe theories about kennedy's fringe theories about how to prevent them. when our numbers guy, frank, goes on vacation

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(800) 378-9643. call now. >> the measles outbreak is quickly becoming the trump administration's first public health emergency to contend with. there are now more than 250 cases in texas and new mexico alone. most of those cases are among unvaccinated patients, something that supports the proven science that just two doses of the vaccine provide lifetime protection against the most contagious human disease. but if you were

to ask the new secretary of hhs, robert f kennedy jr. this devastating outbreak is nothing a little bit of healthy eating and cod liver oil cannot fix. that's what he had to say in an interview on fox news, delivering what the new york times called a, quote, muffled call for vaccinations, end quote, while again raising concerns about their safety and efficacy and speaking enthusiastically about unproven treatments. watch. >> what we're. >> trying to do. >> is really to. >> restore our. faith in. >> government and to make. >> sure that we. >> are there to help them with their needs, and not particularly to dictate what they ought to be doing. >> right now. >> we have we're delivering vitamin a cod liver oil, which has high, high concentrations of vitamin a and vitamin d. if you are healthy, it's almost impossible for you to be killed by an infectious disease. in modern times, because we have

nutrition, because we have access to medicines. >> quote, almost impossible is an audacious and dangerous thing to say when already two unvaccinated people have died, including a healthy child. all this is happening during a time of increased and growing vaccine hesitancy, which is something else. rfk's hhs is now turning its back on. washington post is reporting that the nih is terminating dozens of grants for research on why some people are vaccine hesitant or reluctant to be vaccinated, and how to increase acceptance of life saving vaccines because, according to an internal email quote, they do not align with nih funding priorities related to vaccine hesitancy and or uptake, end quote. joining our coverage, former obama white house policy director, msnbc medical contributor doctor kavita patel and emergency room doctor and brown university school of public health associate professor doctor craig

spencer is here. he's also happens to be the new york city emergency room doctor who survived ebola in 2015 after treating ebola patients in guinea when he was a part of doctors without borders. doctor spencer, i start with you and your reaction to all of this today. >> well. >> thanks for having me on and. >> thanks. >> for highlighting this issue. >> look. >> watching that interview. >> made me feel. >> like i was. >> watching an. >> infomercial at. >> 3 a.m. on some supplement that. >> i should be. >> getting. >> to boost my immune system. >> let me start with. >> what. >> is very clear. and i hate that we have to do this. but vaccines. >> work, including and especially. measles vaccines. a century. >> ago, up to half of all children died before their. >> fifth birthday. >> vaccines do not cause autism. this is. >> settled science. >> the best. >> way to. prevent measles. >> is vaccination, not cod liver. >> oil, not. >> exercise. and infections, especially with measles, do not make your immune. system stronger, as he also. >> tried to.

>> point out later in that interview. in fact. >> measles can. >> erase parts of your immune system. >> making you. >> more likely to get other infections. >> what we know. >> right now. >> is that over 12 states have reported measles this year. at over 250 cases, we have almost as many cases in just. >> the first few months. >> of 2025 as we had all of last year, and four. times as many cases as. >> the year before that. >> and just today, oklahoma got welcomed to the party with two cases. he says that there's only two deaths in the last 20 years before his. >> tenure. >> but there's been two deaths from measles in the first two weeks of his tenure at hhs. we can focus on autism, we can focus on measles, we can do both of these things. we need to be able to chew gum and walk at the same time. and if he's not capable of doing that, then he needs to find someone who is. >> doctor patel, what do we as a country do now with measles raging through parts of our country? >> yeah, i think we default to like local authorities. by the way, a lot of this has always

been local, but we've always had this scaffolding of kind of federal priorities, you know, just an entire engine, by the way, not just the united states government. our participation with the world health organization. i mean, there's a reason that we're part of a global infrastructure around public health. so now a lot of this kind of does, unfortunately, roll down to your local education health authorities. and as you know, nicole, that's also called into question because many members of leadership in some of these communities and communities are also, unfortunately, kind of propagating a lot of this misinformation. so it is now this is something i rarely said to people, but i've started to say, like, you have to take your own health into your own hands. you can't count on a safety net to really come and alert you the way that we would commonly think. and that includes just being vigilant, talking to your local health professional about your vaccine status, talking about the people around you, and also talking about planning what you're doing. i know a lot of parents taking their kids on spring break, mine included. my

kids are going to be in like large settings. i obviously have them up to date on their vaccines, but if you've got a baby that hasn't had both shots, it's time to talk to your pediatrician. if you have an older adult, if you have somebody that's around a pregnant woman who can't get the vaccine, it's time to talk to your doctor and see what you need to do and doesn't hold just for measles. unfortunately, we're going to be seeing this kind of during every infectious disease outbreak or even kind of close to an epidemic or worse yet, possible pandemic. >> i mean, you're both doctors, but you're also both policy experts. what is what is the stuff? rfk says part of a policy to support? i mean, we we've abdicated our role now in eliminating usaid and preventing the most heinous deaths for children around the world. americans, regardless of who we elected as president, could feel good about the fact that we were on the side of eradicating malaria and aids and starvation in parts of the world. we are now, again, as you said at the

earliest days of the trump presidency, seeing resurgence of preventable diseases. what is the policy picture of what is being ushered in by donald trump and mr. kennedy? you first, doctor spencer. >> well, i appreciate that you pointed out not just the domestic situation and also the abdication of u.s. leadership in global health, because both of those things, unfortunately, are mutually reinforcing for us to prevent outbreaks here on american soil, we need to detect them and respond to them internationally before they have the opportunity to reach here. and the problem is, is right now, elon musk goes and this administration have actively dismantled all those systems that we need to do that usaid, cdc, our relationships with the world health organization while simultaneously making it harder for doctor patel and others like myself, working in emergency rooms, clinics, hospitals around the country to be able to

respond to these threats and counter the misinformation that is coming from the most powerful person in health in this country today, this dual threat, undermining our ability to do our job here, while also making it harder for us to detect and respond to outbreaks and diseases when they start in other places, is going to make the next couple of years a lot harder for all of us and a lot scarier time, especially as disease outbreaks are expected to increase in the near future. >> doctor patel, something that folks have said to me is that, you know, and i appreciate that both of you give our viewers the information about what we can do to protect our families, but that our kids might know kids that become very, very, very, very sick. our kids might know kids who die of things that they don't need to die from anymore. why would a government usher in an era like that? >> because this is. a it's a heartless government. this isn't a government that believes that health is a human right, or that

we should have an obligation to support those, not. the mantra is like, okay, you know, support those who can't help themselves. this is actually just supporting everybody. this isn't about people who can or can't help themselves. health care is something that i think craig would probably agree. like we felt very comfortable as doctors saying that this is a this is a human right. it doesn't matter where you are, what you live in, what kind of society. this is clearly policies that work against that. and even worse is that the rhetoric is that there is this kind of class establishment you fill in the blank, nicole, nih, cdc, that these are big government establishments with these kind of overlords, scientists and doctors trying to tell you what to do. and this is taking away your individual rights. where do those individual rights kind of intersect with the communities rights? to your point, to have healthy children who are able to kind of work and have productivity as adults, that's our obligation. that was the american fabric that brought many immigrants like my parents here. and all of that is now

being turned on its head and essentially kind of relegated for those who fall in line with these mantras, or for the 0.01% who have like, concentrated amount of wealth, that's really what the signal is sending. we no longer don't send us not just your hungry, your poor, don't send us your middle class. don't even send us people who actually need health care, because we're not going to be there to give it to you. that is through every policy that they have, whether it's education, health, or even defense policy. and i think that's something everybody should think about. i think about it. i stay up at night thinking about what that means for kind of the jobs we have to do, and that just means you have to put on, you know, we put on extra armor when we get up covid like allowed for us to do that, and we have to put on even more in order to do the work we need to do. >> such a good point. doctor spencer, what is the what is sort of the aperture or what is the strategy for dealing with such an ideologue like, i mean, do you just say like, fine, we'll take the cod liver oil,

but please put back in place the vaccine awareness and the vaccine act. i mean, how do you i mean, you do you do your work all around the world. how do you deal with someone like rfk jr. >> i think the reality here, nicole, is that we can do that. we can say, sure, give the cod liver oil, but please just double down on the things that we know that work. the reality is, is that they're not going to double down on the things that we know that work. we've seen that in just the first few weeks. they are already, you know, getting rid of the advisory committee on immunization practices that normally advises us on what vaccines we should take, which are safe, which helps put together the recipe for the flu vaccine that was canceled. they are reopening this investigation into, you know, vaccines and autism. my guess is that they're going to end up finding something, even if they don't finding anything. i think that our job right now is to double down on the science and to say, we know what is going to happen. i can tell you what is going to happen. if we get rid of our

disease detection systems abroad, there will be more diseases here. if we undermine our ability to respond to them here, there will be more measles cases. there will be more measles deaths. we will regret this. i keep saying this over and over again. put it on the record. we will regret this. and when it happens, we can tell them we told you so. >> i mean, it's it applies to every story i cover. but it doesn't make it doesn't make you feel any better, right? it isn't any comfort that kids will suffer, that parents could lose a child to a completely preventable disease. but it is. it is one of these bitter truths we have to swallow. i thank both of you for making us confront them. doctor kavita patel and doctor craig spencer. when we come back, there's breaking news on capitol hill, where the house is voting now on a spending bill to keep the government open. we'll get a live report on that after a very short break. don't go anywhere. >> what was it like when trump got elected? what was the i mean, what was the reaction, do you think about ice coming to knock on your front door. >> for president trump's first

100 days? alex wagner travels to the story to talk with people most impacted by the policies. >> were you there on january? >> i was there on. >> january 6th. >> did it surprise you. >> that you were. >> fired, given how resolutely nonpartisan you have been? >> and for more in-depth >> and for more in-depth reporting, follow her podcast, the freestyle libre 3 plus sensor tracks your glucose in real time, and over time it can help lower your a1c. ♪♪ this is progress. learn more and try for free at freestylelibre.us ♪♪ so right when i thought mom'd start takin' it easy with her osteoporosis, boom- we moved to this cool new place in the city! if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis and are at high risk for fracture, evenity® can help you rapidly build new bone in just 12 months. evenity® is the only bone builder that also helps slow bone loss. and it's proven to significantly reduce spine fracture risk. i knew she started taking evenity®, but she told her friend it builds new bone. builds new bone! [squeak!] so...yeah...we get out, we explore, and do whatever that thing is on the floor.

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massie of kentucky, who voted no. but there was also one democrat, jared golden of maine, who voted yes. now it is going to be up to the senate to decide with finality whether or not this stopgap spending bill is signed into law and is passed. now, in order for it to pass in the senate, it is going to need bipartisan support. there will need to be 60 votes for this to pass in the senate. so tt means at least eight democrats are going to have to join with republicans in order to pass this legislation, and democrats are going to have to make a decision here. they've been wrestling with this process for some time. this is one of the few opportunities they have with the lack of power, the lack of control that they have in both the house and the senate to exert some level of defiance and some level of standing in the way of the trump agenda. and one of the opportunities they have to do that is force some level of negotiation around this spending plan. what they did in this process was that they dared

republicans to pass this with only republican support in the house. they thought a week ago that that was impossible. there is a significant group of house republicans, conservative house republicans, who almost never vote for what we call these continuing resolutions, which are basically a funding packages that go outside the regular appropriations process that buy time to allow the negotiations to go forward. it's something that congress uses on a regular basis outside the regular appropriations process. so now democrats have got to make a decision in the senate. do they use the leverage and the power that they have to try and force a round of negotiations with the trump white house that could relate back to some of these dose cuts, that could relate to the way that trump is handling the spending of government funds, or do they not take that risk because it could lead to a government shutdown and instead vote to keep the government open and then live to fight another day? right now, democrats in the senate are very split as to how to handle that. they wanted to

see how this process would play out on the house side of things. they were very skeptical that republicans could get this done in the house. and so now they're going to have a tough decision here over the next couple of days with, of course, the funding deadline coming up on friday. nicole. >> it's going to be one of those white knuckle weeks. we'll continue to turn to you. thank you for your reporting, ryan nobles. >> i'm having a hard time hearing you now. nicole. >> ryan nobles, thank you. thank >>join the more than 7 millionnk you so muc adults, like michael, who have taken ozempic®. as touring musicians, my type 2 diabetes could have slowed us down. but i didn't let it. i'm michael from the war & treaty, and this is what my ozempic® era looks like. i'm lowering my a1c. and i lost some weight, too. i also learned some people take ozempic® to lower the risk of major cardiovascular events, like stroke, heart attack, or death. and others take it to lower the risk of worsening chronic kidney disease. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take if you or your family had mtc,

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>> an update to the story we started our broadcast with today at 4 p.m. since we've been on the air, the white house has reversed itself. it has flip flop on that double tariff against canada. the new york times is reporting that the white house will no longer impose a 50% tariff on aluminum and steel. they said that canada would face the same 25% tariff on metals as all of america's trading partners will when they go into effect at midnight. markets responded rallying after that reversal. the tensions could flare up again depending on what donald trump does next. canadian officials have vowed to retaliate if he does impose a 25% tariff on global steel and aluminum tomorrow, as he has promised. after today, i don't know that anyone's going to be betting on much of anything. we'll keep you updated on that we'll keep you updated on that roller coaster. another br if you have bladder leaks when you laugh or cough like we did, there's a treatment that can help: bulkamid and the relief can last for years.

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