>> good evening, i'm alicia menendez. and we begin this hour with the adage you reap what. >> you sow. >> you may remember back in. 2022 when republicans on the house judiciary committee posted. this three word tweet elevating who they deem to be the leaders of their party. >> kanye west. elon musk. >> and donald trump.

>> while republicans. >> have since. >> come. >> to disavow kanye west, they have gone all in on the other two, falling in line with each of the extreme actions being taken by trump, by musk, and by their doge. since january 20th, republicans own this and they know it. >> is not good. >> there is a reason why. >> republicans have been told. >> to cower. >> from town halls and facing their constituents, who are absolutely. >> enraged at what is being done all across this country. we saw late yesterday the most recent of these destructive actions with the mass firings at the department of education, effectively gutting the agency with the ultimate goal of erasing it entirely. the gop's fearless leader will say he is shaking things up, but in reality he is screwing things up. just this morning. a federal judge in baltimore who heard arguments on the legality of the mass firings of federal employees. the u.s. district judge appeared skeptical of the arguments made by the administration, and suggested he could reverse those doj's

terminations and grant a temporary restraining order that would bring the thousands of fired federal workers back into service. joining me now is colorado attorney general phil weiser, one of the many state attorneys general suing the trump administration over the mass firings of federal workers. sir, it is good to see you. your sense of what we can expect to hear from this judge when he ultimately delivers his ruling. >> my sense is this is yet another case. >> this is. >> the seventh case. >> i brought. >> the first six. >> we have preliminary relief. orders already in place. >> this one. involves required notice. >> what people need. >> to. >> understand about these federal employees. and the. >> level of. >> outrage is so many people here in colorado, across the u.s, we're told with no notice, your job is gone. that violates the law. there's a 60 day requirement that's in there for a good reason, to give people a chance to adjust. one of my colleagues, kris mayes. >> had a town hall. >> in arizona, and someone said, i worked at the v.a, i provide critical therapy. i was.

>> told to leave immediately. >> my patients didn't know that they were losing me. there was no adjustment. look at that. throughout the government, the veterans administration, the education department. i know we'll talk. >> more about what's. >> happening there. when you look at what's happening in colorado, our national parks are a treasure and people are being laid off, cut back. we're worried about people's access to our public lands. this is something the public is getting very concerned about. we just had town halls in colorado twice in the last week. one virtual 5000 people, one in-person, close to 2000 people's voices are being heard. we're standing up and we're fighting back. >> help me understand something which is. so all these people get laid off. they. they exit the building. if they're in the building, they shut their laptops. if they work remotely. what happens if they're reinstated, administratively speaking, how does any of that work? >> this is a mess because instead of doing something orderly with a scalpel, it's being done in a disorderly,

non-strategic, and fairly haphazard way. people have heard about nuclear inspectors being fired, only to be told, oh, no, we actually need you. bird flu inspectors being fired, etc. and when you're going to tell people to come back after they've been fired, it's chaotic. think about how much disruption is happening to critical services. air traffic controllers and more. the american people are seeing up close in all the ways we rely on our federal government. we shouldn't have to learn that because tragedies happen, because key employees have been let go before people even know what they're doing. >> you bring up the exact right point, which is, yes. >> there is the. >> impact that it is having on the individuals who work at these organizations. there is the impact to the rest of us of the services that they work on not being rendered. i'm sure you saw the president was asked today whether he feels responsible for the fact that so many of these people are losing their jobs. and he said, sure, i do. i feel very badly, but many of them don't work at all. many of them never showed up to work.

when we cut, we want to cut, but we want to cut the people that aren't working or not doing good jobs, he told reporters during an oval office meeting with the prime minister of ireland. we're keeping the best people on. is that your sense that they are, in fact keeping the best people, that there is anything here that is based on performance, that that type of audit has even been completed and that this is not just a mass firing. >> there's no sense that there's any strategy, there's any assessment or any plan. in the 1990s, president clinton and vice president gore did a very thorough assessment, a reinventing government initiative, which is valuable. it was well done. then. something like that could be done now. but that's not what's happening. what's being happening is employees are being willy nilly let go sometimes by what unit they're in, the public integrity department, public integrity section of the justice department investigates corruption that's apparently

being shuttered. the agency that handles financial aid at the department of education, helping people as they apply for and receive financial aid, is being shuttered. this is not happening because of an overall plan. it's being done in a way that is lacking care, and the american people are going to feel these harms. you are right. it's not just the workers, it's the harm to the public. it is all a travesty. it doesn't have to be this way. one could say, let's make government work better. sign me up for that. but what we're seeing is not about government work better. it's about disabling and dismantling government often because of maybe a policy difference. and this is an important point, alicia. this is not the executive's job to say we don't like the consumer financial protection bureau. congress set up that agency. only congress can dismantle it. and yet we have an executive branch acting as if they get to make the laws, not only the requirement that they execute them well. >> while he is busy dismantling those agencies, he is busy

protecting tesla dealerships. just yesterday, he said he will label violence against those dealerships as domestic terrorism. today you had congresswoman marjorie taylor greene saying she sent a letter to attorney general pam bondi, fbi director kash patel, asking for an investigation into those incidents as domestic terrorism. do you believe that these protests at tesla dealerships meet the definition of domestic terrorism? >> no definition that i can think of. first off, i've only heard about peaceful protests, and this is something that is very important. if someone does any violence, if someone destroys property or hurts somebody, they should be arrested. but if someone decides to protest because they're expressing their political point of view, for example, that the department of government efficiency, as its so called or doge, is engaging in violations of our privacy. that's the right of every american to protest. on your point of view, in the way you see fit. and as long as

you're doing so in a way that respects the law, you're in your first amendment interests. let me make another point about an attack on the first amendment, because we also saw today a judge ruled that an executive order that sought to take down a law firm, target a law firm based on its political views and who they represent. the judge said that order was un-american, unconstitutional and a threat to the first amendment and the very core commitment of the rule of law. we need to respect this basic foundation of our republic. people have the right of free speech. people have the right to hire lawyers, and the government should not be trying to pick the viewpoints they like in the marketplace and silence other ones. the cure for speech you don't like is more speech. if you love tesla, then say how great tesla is. if you love doge, say how great doge. but don't try to criminalize or punish people for expressing their point of view. >> oh don't worry, the president is outside of the white house letting everybody know just how great he thinks tesla is. colorado attorney general phil

weiser, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. let's bring in msnbc senior contributing editor michelle norris. michelle, during a congressional hearing today, you had congressman john larson just blasting his republican colleagues for not being willing to hold the president, to hold musk accountable. take a listen. >> why you would relegate this. committee to no longer being of significance and resort to saying, you will do whatever elon musk and donald trump tell you to do. >> where's the. >> independence of the committee? >> where's the legislature? we're an equal branch of government. and you start off. >> with a blather. >> and yet when we look at the empty seats. >> here, where is elon musk? >> i mean, his argument is, if he's such a genius, if he's so

smart, bring him in. let's ask him some questions about what he's doing and why he's doing it. what do you make of republicans abdicating their power as a co-equal branch of government? >> alicia. >> i've lived in. >> washington for. a very. >> long time and. >> have covered. >> government for a. very long. >> time. >> and i have. >> never seen this kind of abdication. >> of power. >> it is strange. >> it is. >> unusual. but at this. >> point, 50. >> days in, it's. >> not at all surprising. >> you remember doge was introduced as an. advisory council. they were supposed to set up some. guidelines that then congress would review. lawmakers would review that, and then they would enact. those laws. >> they would set. >> that up as. >> the as you heard from the attorney general, congress by by constitutionally is supposed to set spending and. >> make laws. >> that is. >> their role. >> and they are totally. abdicating that now. elon musk did. go to the hill. >> he met. >> with some lawmakers. >> and senator. >> rand paul has. >> been pushing. >> doge to. >> provide some. >> sort. >> of equipment. that they.

>> could review, and then they would fulfill their constitutional duty. >> after that meeting. >> some of them. >> thought. >> that they had some. >> assurances. >> maybe even a little. >> bit of. enthusiasm for that idea. but then you see what's happening. >> they are. steamrolling right past congress, and the lawmakers just seem to. >> be saying. >> go right ahead. >> you know. >> we'll just let you do. >> whatever you want to do. >> and the. >> thing that is. >> it is interesting. and dangerous for them is i've. >> been traveling a. lot in the first. >> three months. of this year, and. >> i've had a chance to talk to. >> a lot of. >> voters. >> both republican. >> and democrat and independent. >> and it's interesting that a lot. >> of. >> republican voters. >> actually like the. idea of. >> finding waste, fraud and abuse. >> they don't like. >> the way. >> it's being done. >> they don't. >> like the ham. >> handed approach to this. >> this pick ax approach. >> where they're going after things that people really. >> care about. >> the national parks. >> aid for students, farm. aid programs for people. >> who are living close to the edge, and possibly medicare.

>> medicaid and. >> social security. >> you're reporting on american farmers has been some of the most illuminating of the first phase of the trump administration. so yesterday, you have the president turning the white house south lawn into a tesla dealership. and then today, you have the new york times reporting that elon musk is signaling he's ready to donate $100 million into groups controlled by the trump political operation. the transactional relationship between the two of them very clear the message to weary republican lawmakers that if they don't toe the line, there are millions of dollars ready to primary them. the why of it, to me feels fairly obvious. i think the challenge for us as journalists and storytellers is i've run out of ways to say that none of this is normal. it's not normal. >> and that message, you know, turning the south lawn into. >> an auto show is not normal, certainly. but it sends a message not just to the lawmakers.

>> it sends a message to everyday americans. that's who. >> he's looking. >> out for. >> you know, we were able to see over his shoulder. >> as talking notes for, you know, trying to save. >> a manufacturer. >> that. >> makes cars that cost $111,000. you know. everyday people who are struggling. >> to put food on the table, struggling. to make. >> ends meet. you mentioned the farmers. >> the farmers have been hit. >> already by this, and we've seen this before. >> donald trump enacted tariffs in the first administration, his first administration. >> we didn't pay. >> as much attention to that impact because we were somewhat distracted. >> because of covid in 2019. >> but we saw what happened, and farmers are still trying to recover from losing their soybean market in china. >> and this year. >> they've already in some cases got the crops in the ground. they've already made. expenditures for this year's crop. they've lost their secondary markets. they have already been hit. and that will have a ripple effect all the way through. the economy will feel it at the restaurant when people can still afford to go out to eat, will definitely feel it at the grocery store. and so, yes, he's sending a message to congress, but he's. also sending a message to everyday americans

saying, you know, i care about this guy, but i'm not so sure i care about you. there's an article in politico. i'm not sure if you saw it with a headline that i think i've now, at this point, seen several times, but like, it's really, truly donald trump's republican party. right. and the fact that you had that cr yesterday that they said they would never vote for a few years ago, the fact that they all got behind it, with the exception of representative massey, politico lays out how he has just redefined gop orthodoxy to the point where republicans have upended a number of their long standing values, a number of their long standing policy positions. have you heard from democrats about how they plan to make sure that republicans have to own every single piece of this administration's agenda? well, there's a little bit of schism in the party about that, because some are saying that they should just fold their arms. this is, you know, that old. colin powell rule. you know, you broke it, you fix it. that's your problem. and there are others who feel that they really do need to mount a strong

opposition to this. so they are sending a message to democratic voters to show people that they really. >> are fighting. >> against this. it is donald trump's republican party, but republican lawmakers will feel the. effects of his decisions faster than donald trump will. this is a second term. doesn't have to worry about this in quite the same way. if you are a house member, you are already thinking about the midterm elections. it's it doesn't seem like it's really a blink of an eye in political terms. and you're seeing the umbrage at the town hall meetings. they have to be concerned not just about being primaried from the right, but also facing people who really are not happy with what they're seeing in congress right now. michele norris, as always, thank you so much for getting us started. coming up, the stunning level of judicial overreach from the trump administration, with the first hearing today on that grad student who was arrested by ice despite his having a green ice despite his having a green card. we'll be an alternative to pills, voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain

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against

opposition. the pushback all over this country has thrown down stop strips in the road to. flatten their tires and at least slow them down. and sometimes to. >> stop them. and it has happened. >> everywhere. and none of it has been easy. given the. >> scale of. >> what they are. >> trying to do to this country. >> but the. feedback loop. >> here is. >> very clear. six weeks. >> in it is working and. >> redoubled efforts. will mean redoubled results. >> today, a federal judge in new york heard arguments in the arrest and detention of mahmoud khalil, a legal permanent resident and prominent figure in pro-palestinian demonstrations on the campus of columbia university in new york. the trump administration has claimed he is a national security threat. now, we should note he has not been charged with any crime. here was the scene in new york city where demonstrators came out in support of khalil, who was arrested by federal immigration agents and sent to a detention facility in louisiana, where he faces threats of

deportation. khalil's lawyers want him to be released from the louisiana detention center and returned to new york for his immigration proceedings. a u.s. district judge did not immediately make a decision, and said khalil and his attorneys are entitled to one privileged call today and another tomorrow, when khalil will remain detained in louisiana for now. also today, from ireland, secretary of state marco rubio rejected the notion that mahmoud khalil's federal court case is about first amendment rights. >> this is not about free speech. this is about people that don't have a right to be in the united states to begin with. no one has a right to a student visa. no one has a right to a green card, by the way. so when you apply for a student visa or any visa to enter the united states, we have a right to deny you for virtually any reason. but i think being a supporter of hamas and coming into our universities and turning them upside down and being complicit in what are clearly crimes of vandalization, complicit in shutting down learning institutions. there are kids at these schools that can't go to class. >> joining me now, loyola law

school professor and msnbc columnist jessica levinson and molly jong-fast, vanity fair special correspondent and msnbc contributor, professor levinson, you heard the secretary of state say, this is not about free speech. do you believe that this case is about free speech? so i'm going to give you a law professor's answer, which is going. >> to. >> be annoying, i know. >> which is it depends on which. >> frame a judge buys here. >> and we see this a lot. i teach. >> the first amendment. we see this a lot. >> where there. >> is somebody who is. >> potentially charged. >> with a crime or. >> threatened with deportation, and. >> they say. >> i'm being targeted based. >> on what i said. and the government. >> says, no. you're not. and look at this power i have in a federal statute. i have the power to say. and secretary rubio is correct, that green cards are a matter of. administrative grace. it's a privilege. >> it's not a right. >> and the executive branch will argue, we're worried about. national security here. and so what this really comes down to legally is which particular

frame, which paradigm does a judge by. will the. government come forward. >> with because. >> they need to come forward with more particularized allegations here than just. >> national security? >> leave it at that. >> will the government be able to. >> come forward with enough to convince a judge that. they're not targeting khalil based on. >> what he said, but instead. >> based on a risk that he poses? >> do you have a sense of where this is headed, professor levinson? >> at this point, the initial discussion was really just about weedy jurisdictional issues. it was about venue. should we. have this particular case? should it be. >> in new jersey. >> or louisiana or new york? >> and there was a discussion. >> about phone calls. i will say. >> i think the. >> judge will be amenable. >> to. >> khalil's arguments here, that because this is a little used statute. and because. >> at. >> this point, i think the government's allegations. >> are particularly general. >> i think the judge will

certainly. >> hear khalil out. >> but i don't think anyone. >> can predict exactly how it's going to go. >> molly, you interviewed governor kathy hochul today for your podcast. what did she say about this? >> yeah, i mean, she said. >> what is. >> he being charged with. >> which is. >> the question that all of us have. right. you cannot like the person. you cannot like their beliefs, but you can't. you know, so far in this country, we don't pick up, you know, people with green cards, put them on planes and put them in louisiana, especially when they're married to american citizens who are eight months pregnant. and it's and it opens the door to the kind of stuff that we have not seen in a very long time in this state. >> on that point, if past is prolog, what does that tell us about the moment we find ourselves in? >> well, my grandfather, howard fast, who was was put in prison for three months by the house on un-american activities by another republican, mccarthy. >> this. >> you know, the fbi, we have a lot you know, we have this

conversation a lot about like, is this who we are as a country? and we have many, many instances in this country of doing things that were that we are not proud of. and one of them was mccarthyism, where we put, you know, artists and writers and, and educators and academics in jail because the government didn't like their beliefs and didn't like their speech. and so they ended up in jail. so i do think that this is there is there is precedent for this, but it's some of the darkest times in american life. >> professor levinson, i've heard this referred to as many things an opening gambit, a test run, a tipping point. when you step back and look at this as a greater question in the context of an administration that has told us where they are on immigration, that has purported to be protectors of free speech, but have been very clear that they do not mean free speech. generally, they mean free speech for the people they believe deserve free speech. what do you

think it is that they are testing here? >> well. >> i. >> think. they're testing exactly what we're seeing, which. >> is how much pushback are they going to get from the judiciary. >> when they are using. >> a variety of different powers? now, if i could. just zoom. >> out for a minute. >> i mean, this is the conversation we are having. how much power does the executive branch have to do x? in this. >> case. >> x is the secretary of. state pointing to a federal statute that's not used very often. >> in picking somebody and saying. >> we have the right to revoke your green card status, we should be clear that this is a statute that is rarely used for this purpose. i'm not saying that means it's illegal. i'm saying that means that we should certainly be on alert. but more generally, we're seeing this in every area a lot of times. many of the cases we've talked about over the last few weeks now, month plus since the inauguration, have been based on

executive power. but i think what we're seeing in our country more generally is an executive that is willing to push the absolute legal boundaries of how much power they can use, and then seeing how much federal judges will push back. so. >> yes. >> i think this is an opening salvo when it comes to this type of situation, but also much more broadly, its executive branch versus judicial branch. >> molly, there. >> are so many of these. >> old laws that they are planning to use that we saw in project 2025, things like the comstock act to ban birth control, the alien and sedition act. i mean, you can there are still many of these zombie laws that haven't been repealed that haven't necessarily been used in modern history, but are still there. and i think a lot of this is trump 1.0 learned that they needed a legal framework, even if it was very sort of airy fairy, you know, very sort of

vague. they needed a legal framework to be able to sell stuff to the higher courts. and i think that's what we're seeing here. >> there are clear constitutional issues with what they have done. the argument that they are making. professor levinson, is there a scenario where this heads to the supreme court? >> so there's always the possibility, i think, that i would flag for. >> people that i. >> don't think the supreme court wants to get involved in every case, and they're going to have to get involved in a lot of the cases that we just talked about. now. >> molly is exactly right. >> we have these zombie laws on the books. so i would offer for all of us that we need to be aware of that this is a real stress test, not just on the constitution, but also on all of these statutes that we just thought, oh, it's okay to leave that in place. it won't be used again. it's not. if a law is still on the books, then it is really up to an administration as to how they want to use that law. but could this get to the supreme court? it's possible.

let me remind everybody a very small percentage of those cases that are appealed up to the supreme court. the court actually decides to take you need a major federal question, or you need some sort of circuit split. and i don't think we're there yet. >> all right, professor levinson, thank you for walking us through all the legalities of this. molly jong-fast, thank you, as always. up next, despite trump's promise for an improved economy, the new tariffs, along with a growing threat of a recession, they are hurting the stock market and sending investors into a full on panic. stephanie ruhl is going to join me to unpack what trump's decisions mean for the global economy and for us here at home economy and for us here at home after this ♪♪ no. ♪♪ -no. -nuh-uh. ♪♪ yeah. oh. yes. ♪♪ oh yeah. yes. isn't this great? yeeaahhhh!! ♪♪

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>> treatment plan. 100%. >> online@forhours.com. >> president trump promised that there would be no stupid wars, but that promise has been upended by his tariff wars, which have plunged our markets into chaos and triggered talks of a recession. today, the trump administration's 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum imports kicked in and were immediately followed by reciprocal tariffs from the european union on $28 billion worth of u.s. goods. canada, i'll remind you, another american ally announced that it, too, would impose 25% tariffs on about $21 billion worth of u.s. goods. both the eu and canada are targeting tariffs in red states, and will cost american companies billions of dollars. the wall street journal is reporting that trump's impulsive moves rattled his own allies,

triggering a flood of calls from business executives and concerns from republican lawmakers and tension in the white house. however, his advisers say he is more determined than ever to carry out his far reaching tariff agenda. commerce secretary howard lutnick echoed that sentiment. will these policies. >> be worth. >> it if. >> they lead to a recession. >> even a short term recession? >> these policies are the most important. >> thing america. >> has ever had. >> so it is. >> worth it. >> it is worth it. it is not chaotic. >> and the only one who thinks. >> it's chaotic. >> is someone. >> who's being silly. >> joining me now is my colleague stephanie ruhle, nbc news senior business analyst and host of the 11th hour here on msnbc. what is he doing? well. >> i guess i'm the silly girl. >> listen, he's talking. >> trump's book, which. >> he needs. >> to do right now. >> as donald. >> trump's commerce secretary. >> but the. >> last time we imposed tariffs. >> like this. >> and engaged in a tariff.

>> war. >> it was it was. 100 years ago. >> and it. >> didn't just lead. >> to. >> a recession, it led. >> to a depression. and i just want to say this about the tariffs. the spirit of them, i get over the last few decades, we have lost millions of manufacturing jobs in. >> this country. as globalization. >> took place, we saw manufacturing take place on the. other side of the world. right. china's economy grew. it lifted people there out of poverty. and we started to get cheap stuff here. and we like that. >> and companies were. >> focused just. >> on profitability. >> and you could your company. >> could make more money if you manufactured. >> your parts overseas. i get all. >> of that. >> but the. >> idea to impose. >> these tariffs. >> across the board. >> especially to our allies. >> to our brothers. >> and sisters in mexico. >> and in canada. >> all that's going to do is hurt all of. us and it's not. >> going to bring the. jobs back. and i think that's what's so dangerous. >> and disingenuous, because. >> there are. >> so many people. >> that live in the rust. >> belt. >> that live in parts of. >> this country. >> who are. >> saying, i don't trust. >> government, i don't trust media because the income.

inequality is. so out of control in this country. no one's doing anything. >> for me. who's going to do something for me? >> and the president is. >> saying, i am. i'm going to kick. >> these guys from other countries out and we're going. >> to make stuff here. here's the problem. >> you tell me. >> the name. >> of one. >> business leader. >> in the. >> last three weeks since these tariffs have been imposed, who stood. >> up and said, we're going to start making all. >> the iphones here. we're going to make all the t shirts. >> here, the nike sneakers. >> that you're wearing. we're going to make them in tuscaloosa. >> no one. is saying that. >> so the fact that we don't have the back end of this, all these tariffs are going to do is lift prices on everything and have companies just strangled. >> they're not doing anything because they don't. >> know whether to. >> look right or look left. >> yesterday was. >> the. >> business roundtable meeting right. >> the idea of the. >> business roundtable. >> is for. >> business leaders. and government leaders. >> to. get together to talk about what are our issues. >> and how. >> do we help the economy, how do we help businesses rise and grow in this country? you know what all those business leaders said to the president? >> nothing. no one asked. >> him a real question. no one asked him a probing question. >> no one. >> said anything. i was in dc. yesterday and. there was a private.

>> business conference. >> in the morning. lots of debate, lots of ideas. >> being exchanged. but as soon as. >> donald trump was. >> in the room. >> at the brt, no one said anything. which shows. they know you push back on anything with him. he will come for you and he will seek revenge. >> and that's. >> a very. challenging way for. >> you to. >> run a business, knowing. >> that you've got a government. >> that operates. >> that way. well, they may not be able to say it in in public, but as you know, in private, they are phone banking, the white house and complaining about all of this. and this headline from the new york times caught my attention. investors thought they had trump figured out they were wrong. >> they thought. listen, lots of people collectively. thought that the president's guardrail. >> was. >> going to be capital markets. >> was going to be the market was. >> going to be you. the palm. >> beach set. >> that he rolls with. well, it turns out that is not the case. the fact that you now have the president, his cabinet and republicans going on television saying, you know what, a recession. might not be a. >> bad. idea if the. >> market goes down. >> it's a buying. >> opportunity. >> that's simply not true. >> and they all know it. and the fact. >> that they're. >> trying to sell that to us,

that's crazytown. >> i want you to take a listen. you said this, but i want to make sure you hear from the man himself, sort of the 180 he has done on the markets. take a listen. >> the stock market is, in a sense, crashing. the numbers are very bad. this is bionomics. it's catching up with them. we are a nation whose stock markets continued success is contingent on maga winning the next election. when i win the election, we will immediately begin a brand new trump economic boom. it will be a boom. it will be a little disturbance. but we're okay with that. it won't be much. you can't really watch the stock market. the markets are going to go up and they're going to go down. >> so is it a boom? is it a little disturbance? and what has changed in his worldview his. >> story his story has changed. listen, do we know what this is going to do in the long term? we don't. but but for people who

said, listen, this is just a negotiating tactic. it hasn't been a negotiating tactic. and even all the tariffs he's backed off on like at this point we need an intraday chart for where he is on the tariffs. even when he pulls back and says we're not going to do this, he doesn't get anything. out of it. and if he. >> was really. >> being honest intellectually honest about the argument, we're stopping fentanyl from coming in this country, then show us where that's happening, because. >> they've. >> actually given a carve out in china for smaller, lower cost things. and that's how fentanyl actually gets in this country. >> and the argument. >> that you're seeing huge amounts of it coming from. >> canada. >> it's just simply not true. >> okay. so you have these tariffs which are going to lead most likely to higher prices for a lot of americans. you have doge, which is going to lead to the privatization of government services most likely. and then you have the fact that they're talking about tax cuts for billionaires. i think the conversation that we're going to all have to start having is, what is the rest of the country? what are the rest of us? we're not billionaires willing to sacrifice in order to allow him

to give these tax breaks to billionaires. well. >> i would say two things. it was 15 years ago and two months that the citizens united decision was made in the supreme court, which basically said unlimited corporate money can go into politics. and that's what we have seen. our lawmakers are now making decisions based on what the biggest companies and the wealthiest people want them to do, not the majority of the united states. and as it relates to doge, the thing that people should really pay attention to, right? what are they doing? they are breaking our government down to its studs. because why? whether it's the postal service or social security or the va, they're saying privatize, privatize, privatize. and the thing. >> we need to understand. >> yes, the businesses operate tighter, faster, smoother than government does. sure. because they have a different goal. right. you and i could both say, what do you prefer. >> going to. >> fedex or going to the post office? you live in new jersey? i live in new york city. i would definitely say ups or fedex. and you know why? because they're at the end of my street. but if i

lived in rural america, where those companies can't make a lot of money, there's no fedex there, there's no ups there. but the postal service. come rain or shine, has to serve the american people, just like public school, right? if you had a child that had special needs, that public school can't say, we can't educate your kids, send them packing. but i know when i had a child who was going to a private school and the private school no longer could serve my child's needs, they said, we won't see you in september. so the so our public schools write things like the us postal service, things like the va, they're not there to make a profit. yes, they could be run better, tighter, smarter, more efficiently. nobody's arguing that, but they're there to serve the american people. and that's very different from private business. so for everybody who's saying, yeah, let's go business, remember what happens to those most vulnerable in a business sense. they get left out. they're the customer those businesses don't care about. >> i just want you to know i'm on a first name basis with everyone at the post office where i live in new jersey, so i am giving them their business. i've only got about 30s left.

what do you think consumers fee? first. secretary is currently saying, build a chicken coop in your backyard and raise some chickens. what's that telling you? >> sister stephanie ruhle? no one explains it better. thank you so much for being with us. coming up. as the deadly measles outbreak continues to grow, hhs secretary robert f kennedy jr is saying it would be better if everybody got measles, because then you're forever immune from measles. we will unpack that nonsense with the doctor after nonsense with the doctor after the break. (♪♪) some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking allstate first. like you know to check first that you bought seats in the right section. kansas fans, get on your feet! boo! boo! yeah, checking first is smart. so check allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. oh, yeah. we'll see!

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zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. to catch up to twice the bugs, try zevo max. 16 states, with the epicenter of the outbreak more than 200 cases in west texas now spilling over into neighboring oklahoma and new mexico. it's an early test for noted vaccine skeptic robert f kennedy jr. the secretary of health and human services, whose fringe theories about prevention, natural immunity and treatments have raised serious questions among the medical community. >> it used to. >> be when you and. >> i were kids. >> everybody got. >> measles. >> and measles. >> gave you protection, lifetime protection. against measles infection. the vaccine doesn't do that. the vaccine is effective for some. >> people, for life, but many people it wanes. >> joining me now, nbc news medical contributor, doctor vin gupta. doctor gupta, your

reaction to those remarks from the health secretary? >> well. >> it's just not true. and, you know, unfortunately, i don't know where he's got his information from, but at least one dose of the mmr vaccine, that's usually a schedule. the first you get in the first year of life, the second dose, the mmr vaccine, measles, mumps, rubella, you get between, say, four and six years of age, usually before you start, say, kindergarten. and what we know is that that that one dose is 93% effective over the duration of time at preventing infection, two doses, almost about 97%, and it doesn't wane over time except in specific edge cases. and so he's just wrong. >> let's talk a few more fact checks here. a number of claims that he made in his fox nation interview last week. he suggested that it was very difficult for measles to kill a healthy person, and that malnutrition played a role in the texas outbreak. >> so. >> you know, let's talk about malnutrition first in terms of what does he mean by that? i'm

trying to channel what his advisers or what he's thinking, just because i think a lot of people do believe his trope here, that somehow a healthy diet gives a robust immune system and it can prevent measles. healthy diets are really important to lower your medical risk, your lower your cardiovascular risk, and to prevent an infection from becoming a severe infection. absolutely. does it prevent infection by itself? no. absolutely not. and so, you know, what is he confusing here, alicia? what he's confusing is this concept of vitamin a deficiency. it's the only nutritional deficiency. deficiency that we've studied when it comes to measles infections. and what we know is that in places where people are vitamin a deficient, not the united states, where it's very rare, but in places like east africa and asia, where it's very common, if somebody if a child, say, comes down with measles in those parts of the world, we proactively, proactively give vitamin a repletion two doses in those places. and we also do here in the united states, just as a precautionary measure,

because we know that it may predispose deficiency, it might predispose to a severe bout of measles. it does not prevent infection. so he's he's just confusing the basic facts there on the one element of our nutrition that might actually be beneficial if we repeat it in the setting of a measles infection. again, there is no evidence that any form of diet prevents measles infection. that's what vaccination is for. as to your first t question, is this non-serious to somebody who's unvaccinated? again, the data here is this is not even this is not something normal republican administrations would debate about. 1 in 5 people, 20% of people, if they're unvaccinated, end up in the hospital, particularly those that are adolescent or younger. so the facts speak for themselves. >> you know, we had an infectious disease doctor on earlier in the week, and i asked him when we would know that this had hit a point of crisis. and he had a very poignant answer, which was, a child has died.

like we may choose to define a crisis as a child needlessly dying in this country. the atlantic was able to interview the father of america's first measles death in a decade. the father did not vaccinate his daughter, and he said to the reporter from the atlantic he considers getting measles a normal part of life. he'd also heard that getting measles might strengthen your immune system against other diseases. perhaps most of all, he worried what the vaccine might do to his children. your sense of where people are getting this information, why there is clearly such an education gap here on this question, and the danger it poses to have someone running america's largest health organization agency that is repeating some of these fallacies. >> well, let me just say from the beginning, it is easy to play fast and loose, and the only people that play fast and

loose with health facts are those that are never at the bedside. and that's the trope. that's the phenotype of the individuals surrounding rfk jr. that's rfk jr. himself. he's not a doctor. he's not a clinician of any stripe. so when you're not actually faced with the consequences of putting information like this out there at the bedside, of course, this might predispose you to be immune from those consequences and say whatever you want. sad. you would think that there's ethics and morals here, but that's not happening. so that's number one. i think that's what's happening. the people he surrounded himself with, the other doctors in the community that he surrounded himself with that are nominees have had a history. his fda nominee, obviously doctor ross at cms of also doing really special things when it comes to adhering to science or not adhering to science. and so he's selected for that group of people that have been willing to sacrifice basic medical ethics and principles to advance his agenda in terms of where is the origin of all of this? it's, you know, look at what he did, rfk jr, prior to coming into this role,

the child, he founded an organization called the child's health defense, which just a few weeks ago was doing programing in in parts of texas saying that the measles vaccine. quote unquote, was responsible for this outbreak, not the not just the high rate of families going unvaccinated. so he's directly still contributing to the reasons why people are not getting vaccinated. >> doctor vin gupta, we spent so much time together during a global pandemic. i thought that folks had come to understand infectious disease better than it turns out we do. doctor vin gupta, as always, thank you. up next, next, a high stakes moment of diplomacy as we wait for russia to respond to the u.s. ukraine deal. and as secretary of state, rubio heads to canada. of state, rubio heads to canada. we're going to be right for more than a decade farxiga has been trusted again and again, and again. [crowd chant] far-xi-ga ask your doctor about farxiga.

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exclusive bonus content, and all of your favorite msnbc comcast business helps turn the pga tour into a... ...tee shot-mashing... ...every-angle covering... ...up-to-the- millimeter-spotting... ...game-changing golf experience. contact with them today. if their response is yes, then we know we've made real progress and there's a real chance of peace. if their response is no, it would be highly unfortunate if the ball is truly in their court. >> today, secretary of state marco rubio said that the ball is now in russia's court to decide whether or not to accept the proposed 30 day cease fire in its war with ukraine. ukrainian officials said they'd be willing to support the temporary truce after a marathon seven hour long meeting yesterday in saudi arabia with members of the trump administration, who in turn agreed to lift the pause on

intelligence sharing and military aid imposed by trump. after that fiery oval office meeting with president volodymyr zelensky. the big question now, what will vladimir putin do? and what, if any, concessions is he willing to make? in the meantime, secretary rubio will spend the next couple of days at a summit with other foreign ministers in the g7, the first meeting of its kind since trump returned to the white house. and it might be a tad awkward considering that the meeting is taking place in a country that president trump keeps insisting should be our 51st state. that would be canada. but rubio says he is not planning to discuss those threats to take over our neighbors to the north during his visit. that is all for this hour. i'm alicia menendez. i'm going to see you back here tomorrow, 7 p.m. eastern. all in with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight on. >> all in. we're in this. >> this difficult. transition from biden nomics. >> to tr