present declared mission accomplished iiraq. the lead story, all mocratic, the news baking tonight that whatix congressnal is not what t cia direor thinkse told them. with that, ladies and ntlemen, here the rachel maddow. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, keith. thank you very mucr that. it is sort of an azing story. we will be talking about sarah paliand mark sanford and setor john ensign o nevada this hour. yes, the original summertime republican fall from grace story ts fallier tight. you thought the john ensig scandal w over. there is more. we'll be discussing repuican self-destrucon with jeff rich. he'll beoining me he in the studio. that is all to coe. but we arebeginning with some breaking news. cia officials have miled congress since 2001. that is noonger just a coroversial allegation from speaker of the house nancy pelosi. it is al now an adssion. reportedly comin directly fm

the head of the cia. leon panetta. today a tter has surface it was a letter wrten toeon panetta from seven democtic members of t house inlligence committee and the letterays this. recall, no doubt,hat on may ou 15th, 2009, you stated the following in a lett to cia employees -- let me be clearit is not our policor practice to mislead congress. at is against our laws a values. recently, you testied that you have determed thattop cia officials have conceed significant acon from all members of congress and misled members for a number of years from 2001 to this week. this is similar to other deceptions of which we are are fr otherecent peiods. in lig of your estimony, we ask that you publicly corre your statent of may 15th, 2009. th don't actually say ow, but it's implied. and it is signed, sincerely, ana

eshoo, and adam mith. it wasent to him two days after briefed the house committee. now, these sen signatories are nsidered allies of the saker the house, ncy pelosi. herontention that theia deliberatelymisled her a other members of the congress about waterboarding is what prpted the cia to issue their "we don'tmislead anyone" rebuttal way bac in may. now these membs of congress e saying that leon panea direly contradicted th statementnd admitted tt the cihas misled congress, but he did it in testimonyehind closeddoors. th now want him to say it in blic. for its rt, the cia is stking to its guns, releasing a statement tonight, once again reiterating, quote, it is not the policy or practice of the cia to mislead congress. joining us n to foll all of

this smoke to its fiery source is "newsweek" investigative correspondent and msc contributor mhael isikoff mike, thanks vy ch for joining us. >> greato be with you, achel. >> first, do you think that i've summized this right? members of the house say that leon panetta admitt smething bend closed doors that he oughto fess up to in public. is that about right? >> well, whether theye saying he ought to f up tot in public is a little unclear. but it is very hard to tell at this point wheth we are talking about a series potential federal crime here, and it i a federal crim for the cia to conceal information or to congressas chairman reyes said, or whetr this is a political fo fight by the democrats trying to defend spker pelosi fm what ty view as bus charges by the publics relating to her comments aboutwartboarding, because we don'tnow what the

underlying informati is. we know that it is not lated to the interrogaon dispute, that presumably sparked this, because that's what thewhole issue of a terboardinghen pelosi said that sheas misled about waterboarding. we know that from both sides on this that theunderlying program was highly classified. it's notclear that this was entirely as opposed to what we think it is, was some adstment or modificati to an ongoing programhat the congreswas told about, but s not tld about the mofication. so there's a lot of unanswered questions here, but there unquestionably a lot of pocs behind this. >> it crtainly seems, particularly because of the list of signatorie because i's only memrs of the house intelligence cttee from the democratic party who have sied on to this, and because of the brouhaha over nancy pelosi i

theast, it certainly seems like there's some litics at work here. but then the timing seems really weird. the letter isated june 26th sot's been out f a few weeks now. it's just surfaced today. the on thing that we know that's going onin intelligence politics right nows that there is bill, the intelligence bill isoving through congress that has some controvsial assertions about how many members of congress shod be in on the supersecret briefing do you thinkhat it's possible that this whole kerfuffle, the release of this docent is relad to tt bill, to trying to change current ntext. >> absolutely. that bill w scduled to come to theouse floor torrow. anone of the extraordinary thingst happened today is that thehite house, the obama white house threatened to veto the bill if it inuded a prision that speaker pelosi and the house democrats put in it, requiring all members of the intellence committee to be fied about covert programs as opposed to the so-called gang

of eight,ust the chairs of the relevant commis and the leadership ofoth chambers. look, the democrats put tt in there. pelosi put that in there, because they saithe gang of eight was so subject to manipulation, there wasn't enough oversht going on and it'sard after everyinghat weaw duringhe bush administration years to quarl with that. an yet there is the obama white house sayi, no we wantbe ab t estrict the information th goes to congress about covert action programs, so much that they were threatening to veto the bill. i can tl you, tonight, as a result of that veto threat,hat house bill is probably gng to be pulled fr t house floor tomorrow, because the democrats arafraid to push with that vetohreat hanging overit. >> briefly, mi, are you expecting ln panetta to clear any what it is that he said and whether or not that itial statement that we don't miead

anyby needs to be clarifi o he'll ke mum and let the cia spokesman to deal with this? >> hard to know. the statement tonighthe agency put out is remkably unrevealin saying -nd besis, only that they came forward his own, that panetta came forrd on his own to discloseit. we'll have to see whether all this ske him out or not. >> michael isikoff,bc contributor, a man who is very much on top of this uff. than very much for joinin us tonight short notice. appreciate it. >> thk you. > after mark sanford's steamy correspondence became public, you would thinke would have met our quota for the smm of heartsick letters from hypocritical elected official adulter adulterersbuno. welcome ck to the spotlight, nevada senator john ensign whose sex scanl now comes with a cringe-makie ine ining handwrit footnote of hiow john rich will join us shortlyl. coming up next. (a(announce this is nine e generatis of theorld's most reved xury sedan.

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the firstmajor republin sex and corruption scandal of the summer, twic bied, is now aching out from beyond the grave. new detailed and sndalous evidence surfaces to furth, of all things, the john ensign sex scandal. today the "las vegas sun" published a handwritten lett purportey itten to jhn ensign to e campaign staffer he has admitted to ving an afir with. her name cindy hampton. the letter is dated february 2008, atould have been during the time of the affair, accordg to t senator's own time line. the letter reads cindy,his is

the most iornt letter i've ever written. what i did with you was wrg. i was complete self-centered in only thinking of mysf. i used you for mywn pleasure. i betrayed everything i believe in. i justified my actio bause i blamedy wife. doug has been a great friend to me over the years d i threw allver that away ove wanting to feel good. i take 100% responsibility for my actions, plain and simple it was wrong. was sin. we called john engn's office toy toonfirm that this tter w in fact written by him. they have not returned ou calls so far the letter was g to the "las vegas sun" by the husband of ensign's admitted mistress, doug hampton, who's referenced in the letter. haton today also filled in a few of the other outrageously andalous blanks in this story. he admitted that he was attempting to extor millionsof dollars out of senatensig mr. hmpton also said that within 24 hours of writing this

plaintive letter, senator ensign was already back to purg his life. ensign, that wkend, repordly telling doug hampton,quote, i'm in loveith your wife. and we know from ensign's own admission that the affairidn't end until six mons after is, it all has to be over now, it s sin letter was dated. mr. hampton also says that hi wife w paid over $25,000 severae by john ensign when she left his office during t affairn april of last y that may poseome serious eic proble for senator ensign. we alrdy knew that her pay had been doubl during the time of the affair, but it s not prevusly known howh her verance package was wor. and cindy hampton herself is now publicly cling for her ex-boyfrie, john ensign to resign. fr and ensign's republican colleagues in the senate, we have stilleard nothing. stilno comment, really? also, no coent from the republican party establisent. that's an important part of this. because we learned at the start of the scandal that rublican party fund were used to put

ensign's stress' 19-year-old son on the payroll of the natial republican senatorial committee while eign shared that k. it means, essentially, republican party donors were paying ensign's mistress son at his behest. we cled the rsc today and they referred all quesons on the matter to snator ensign's fice. like i said,e's not callin us back. buthe nrsc did tll us that they haven'teceived any complaints from republican party donors thus far. what, it's supposed to b weird now to have theteenage sons of ur senator's mistress onhe payroll? then there's also reblican senator to coburn who has been dragged intohis yet again. we aced a call to his office yet agn for h comment because s name surfaced yet again today doug hampton said that he read this letter in t urging of and in the prence of senator burn. senator coburn was one of engn's roommates. and he alleges tha coburn

confronted ensgn about the affair and said should pay the hamptons millions of doars. senator coburn's offices h previously rested o efforts for comments on this matter, but today they did give us this statement. ote, dr.orn did everything heould to encourage senator ensi end to this affair and to persuade nator ensine to repair the damage he d caused to his own mriage and the hampton's marria. had he followed dr. burn's advice, this would he ended and been made public long ago. the connection between coburn and ensig happens to be the same connection that connect is republican sex scandal with the other republican sex anl still ongoing, the one of governor mark sanford. the connection is a house in washgton called "c" street. coburn and ensign both lived together tt was made famous when mark sanned for mentioned it in hilong rambling, i was sleeping wh the argentinn lady speech.

that would he en at roughly the same time tha john ensign s getting advice from his "c" street friends aboutow best to pay off the womane was having hicret affair with. nd of sounds like a fun house. meanile, in south carolina today, presumab in an effo to show how the n posscdal mark sanford is going to different from the old pre-scandal mark sanrd, sanford's office,or the first time in the whe 6 1/2rs he'see governor, released a public schedule events for him. we've been waiting 6 1/2 years to find out where he's going to be ts week. and hereis. no public events are curreny scheduled for the remainr of the week. tada! the common beltway conventional wisdom about these scandals is thatark sanford was going to be savedecause of good politil timing. beinershadowed by rnor sarah palin's awkward resiation and the overwhelming story of michael jackson's death. then ain, con vaeventional wisdm also saidthe john ensign scandawas gone too a that

came back with a handwritten vengeance today. beltway of wisdom al holds at sarah palinould be a republ rock star and a fund-raising magnet, despite the damage she's done to her own elected office prospects recently. that, it turns out, may also be wrong. ere's news today that the republican candidates in the only mor statewide elections this year, the governor races inew jersey and virginia, are both cool to thedea ofalin joining them othe campaign trail. republican bob mcdonnell o virginia told the associated press he still doesn't fly understand the announcemen palin madebout her own carr. and a statement from chris chrischri christie told the ap, we don't have any plans on having her win. joing us now, mr. frank rich. hadark mckinnon on the show last nit, and i had planned to ask him if he w wking for repuican gubernatorial candidate rit now, would he want palin to comeaise money. athe last mute, i didn't ask

hime questi, because i felt it was so obvious that the answer was yes. palin to come raise money for them. now it seem like that common wisdom might be wrong. do you think that's correct? >>t's half and half. e majority of the country, whh means bue americand purple america, east persona non grata. that's why they don't want her into virginia new jee because she'll oy her their cause in closed races and stas that are oba states. the problemis, she is t biggest star in the republican party. is is all they have left. we're seeing what's ppening all e other potential srs. ensign andford both thought they were possibly tential candidat for t next go round, so palin probably i the biggest fund-raiser fothe party. the question is, howhey mauver this to geter into places where they'llove r, south carolina utah, idaho and not furthe damage the national reblican brand, although you

have to nder, it's so maged, maybe it doesn't even make any difference at thispoin >> one of the ironies of all the republan self-destruction this summer is that it has been all of these people fm the very samet of of the party. these family values conservatives, ensigand saord and palin. i don't feel like '90s politics are going to come b i don'fe like they can be a family vlues party anore if only just because of a this embarrassing hypocrisy but i don't belithat right-wing republinism is goin to goway. that if they lose theamily values platform, wh do they n oninstead? >> youee it mostf all in rah palin, is this sensef grience against the elites. arng withobama, but then the mastream, so-lled mainstream or liberal media. and al the ete of the republican party. they do really like people like mark mckinnon, for instance. and so there is this kind of

populi, angrying going on. a lot of it cused on oma, but there's a following for it. and it separate from t same-sex marri abortion, those issues. it's related to it, but is different. anthat's the note palin's been what sort ofpocies would a movement like that support? >> nothinggood. i mean, it really -- the only policy is, you know, i s russia from my state. i mean, the who point, it has no real coent. it's thi unfocused anger. you seeit onomeone like glenn becksomeone that's aimed at wall street, which is aditionally a big part of the republan party. but it's jus a kindf -- almost neolistic, andtherefore, somewhat scaryf it burn out of controlnd a problemhe pay s to deal with. >> t part of it i see a little scary,nd i realize other people are focusing othis as the main pt of sarah palin's weird implosion ov the past week. but her railing against the

ethic complaints. first of all, there ar't that many ethics complain. there are thre outstanding. thst serious oes were all fired beforehe got tapped for the vp but toocus onhat issue, that's why she ha to get out of office, ethicscomplaints, thi accountability stuff. to crusade against accountability, citizens mes ofeeping theircted ficials in control, seems to me to be aretty -- a sort of dangerous formf grievance politics for peoe who actually want to get elected. >> right. particularly as the party at's still coming offhe abramoff scandal, newt gingrich had his own set of scandals that not thatarn the past. but i thinkt's kind of a speration to try to find something and it wilbe something else. but undeyi it s, you know, you look down on us. you look down on us working people who go out fishing and ha, u know, grandchildren out of wedlock and you'r a bunch of sbs and it's a

minority market for this. tt's a loud one and it will shell out money forher and for republican cdidates she supports in th places whe she iswanted. >> briefly,do democrats just stand by andwatch this happen? is ts a fire theyust watch burn in e republican party,r shouldy be throwing pele ns of gas and helng thi along in some way? >> i think the democrs should igre . let them coit and deliver on e promises thatbama has made to the country. >> oh, you radical. >> radical idea. >> fnk rich, "new york times" coluist, thanks for coming in. coming up, the celebrated fourth of july in north korea this yr by shooting more missiles into thesea. a very inefficient meansf fishg. but they also sort of tried to shut down "the washington post." a very strange war story, coming up. and a new taped msage from a guwho is supposed to be dead. it's a coming up next. a annnce] intrtrodininthe latest

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> still ahead,d, the first iraq vetetera elected to conongrss lalaunes a neffffo to overturn d don a a don'ttell. congressman papatrkk murphy jois usshortly. pps, theanan who turned his own brotheher. d thereby stoppepe onef f th longest domestic terroror mpaigns inhihis countrtry. davidd kaszynski,i, o o the brother of the m man known as t unibomber will b bjojoing us hehere and friend ntnt jones hasas on taa at the timicicss s stggg betweenahahmo ahmadinejad and a fly.y. that's allll cmimingup. first, it's timeor a

couple of holy mackekere storie in today's ne. l like me youou tried to goo the wsite of "the washingtonon post" yesterday afafrnrnoo andn found yourself unanae e to procd with a big awkward d neorork ror messagag s sting you in the fac, yoyou e not alone. you may have also encountered a network k roror message over th past few days at the w webte off the secret servicice, the treasury, andd en the whwhe e house. what was going oon? tus out north korea w waswawang war on s. maybe. least, that's whathehe south koreans are sayyin ststtiting julythth, more than o dozen n mar r coorate and vevernnt websitetes south korea and the..s. w wer hitt wi widedespadad sisilit, hard to ststopenial of service atckcks. nonow,enial of service a attksk e the easiest kind of hacking.g. you essentntllllyake sosoeone's website ununuslele by making so muchake traffic that theirir ser servers popooputut ththe ututh koreans araree i iig ththathis latest round of attacks succeeded as much as it

did because it w w soisticated, cocoornate, not your garden variety dns cck. the south korean natioiona intelligenenceerervi put o o a atement that said, qute, thiss is not a simplettta by an individual hacker, but apappes to be a thorououlyly planneded executed byy a specific organizazati ornn a state levevel,yy wch they mean, north korea's wing cyberwaronon t u.s. g govnmnmt. andd "the w whihingn post," for some reason. ybe they're mad about dan umkfrum kik frkikin red too. > up next, anntntguing stery from iraq. u.u. troops have now pulled back from iraqi cieies. alal u u. combat brigades areree totoee ne from iraq by the end of next mmer. and bybyhe end of the yeaear afr thatat, ererare supposed to be no u.s. troops at t al left i i ir.. today, a a audio m msage was issued by al qaeda i i iq saying, , que,e, en if thehe ericans remain nowhereeutut a small spot in the iraradesert, so every muslim should btltl them untilil ty y arexpelled.

this is not extly surprise ssage from al qaeda i i iraq. thth are, after all, al qaqaedin iraq. formed specificacallinin respon toss invadadinthat ountry, icichad nevever had al qaqaa a before it h uus. thth s sai there is one suriri about isis new message. al qaeda sysys theoioice on the tape is a a guy nanamedd abu om babaghdi, the leader of thhei oup. the rereonon is surprising to hear from themececau theraqi gornrnnt says they've been hoholdg him in j ja since this spspri.. the iraqi govevemementven leleed this pictcturee of thee n theyey s i i abu omar al ghdadi. ofof crsrse,he man inn this piurur looksotothi like thehe manin this otherpicture, anand he's's the guy who the news channellaims really is abu omar a al baghdadi. t it getss weird, years ago the iraq g govnmnmensays they lllled abu omar al baghdadi. e u.s. military said a a t the time, the i ira couldn't have killed him beusus it was t opinion of theninid states

lilita that abu omar al babaghdidi w a mytyt he did notot exist. f fac he was a acr.r. soither todaday' ti-american audio message wawas ntnt by a g in jail by a guyuy who prrov ththe i irais have thewrwrg guyn jail, , b by a dead guguy, or actor. it's your call. we poportyou find it very fficult to decide. of consider myself a ronhood of the direing world. buick clave the finest lurcrossover ever. i ed some zen time with isismodel thank you. anyou know what, itorks. trtrisysm for men: flible new programs personalized to meet your goals. what's great about nutrisystem is you eat the foods youove

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patricmurphy serve as an army captain in the 82nd airborne divisn in iraq. he was awarded thonze star. he also been a prossor at west point, a criminal prosecutor, and in 2006e was the first veteran of the iraq war to be elected to congres in h first month in offic congressman murphy introced the iraq war de-escalatn act to respoib withdraw troops from iraq on a time line. he introduced that legislation alongside young democrati senar with the hard-to-remember name of barack obama. now in his second term in congress, congressman murphy has

just announced that his taking on lead sponsorship of a bill that president barack obama sa heould sign if it get to his desk. it's legislation that woul repeal don't askdon't tell. >> the policy is not wking for armed services a it hurts our national security. president barack obama has stated that if congrs gets a bi to his desk repealg don't ask, don't ll, he wl sign it into law. it is now our job and my job specifically to quarterback this to the congress the united stateso do just that. >> esident obama has, of course, been emphatic and consistentn his statents that he is opposed don't a, don't tell. that he thinks that open gay men and women should be allowed to serve in the u.s. military. what been in question to those who share the prsident's views on the issue is the sense o urgency thate has about getting the repeal done. as of now, geing it done in

congress is the job for which patrick mphy has decided to volunteer. veteran, cgressman patrick muhy. thanks very mu for joining us tonight, sir >> thanks so much, rachel, for having me. >>far as i know, you've got 151 cosponsors so far. i would lovet for you to transle thatumber into how likely it is that this bill actually gets passed bthe house this year. >> w need 208 votes in the house of representative skbes tually got one couple hou ago. anher congressman just sied on. so we're making progres every da i've been quarterbking this, rachelas you mentioned,or about ak now ande need to act with a sense of urgency to put this onhe president's desk. >> can i ask who your new signup is? >> it's jo backka, onef the cochairs of the hispanic ucus here in the house of representative >> excellent. you're a veter yourself, obsly, decorated wh a bronze star, a mared man, a blue dog democrat, you represent pesylvan, conservative on a

lot of fiscal issue why did you decide that you we the guy t take point on this issue? why does this mean so much to you? >>ure. rachel, served in the army nc 1993 and served with some great ldiersho were kicked out of the army not because of y sexual misconduct, but just because of their sexual orientation, just because they were gay. this is a national security sue, rachel. the fa that we let go ov 13,000 troops -- that's over 3 1/2 combat igades. it doesn't make any ense. and now is the time to repeal it. we've got to get it through the house d in the senate and got to get the president to sn this. >> theresident does say that he wants toepeal thelaw. as said that heoo forward getting a bill from congress. has the wte house been helping you with yo efforts? i know you've en going around meeting pe, other members of the use, face to face, you've been working persollyto try to move this bill. are u gettingdirect support fr the white house? i think th presidentast

week, his instructions to both the chairman of the jot chiefs of staff and all the secrery of defense to say, we lk at policy, we look at the implentation of it, but really the issue is, rachel, is, tis was an act o congss that made don'as don't tl into law. it willake an active congss to fix that mistake of 16 yea. and it's ourob as a cgress toet a backbone, to have the coage to get th passed. wean't punt this tohe president. we can't punt this to the courts. it'sur job. it's my job to qrterback this. and we're gog to make happen. >> wn you go around and me withember of congress o this do the ones who e against th who say tha they're not ing to support you on this, you can't count on theivote, do they mak od arguments? when people are arguing ainst don'k, don't ll are y finding yourself in solidly, rigorous intlectual debates about the policy? >> i think that would be a stretch, to onest with you. i think 's frankly disheartening.

i've only en here for 2 1/2 years, but sometimes tyive the excuse of, i can't do i in my district, i'm in a tough district. that republicans and democrats. they're like, murve, iould love to be with you. but we have lost 1300 troops. wee now ling about two per day. we need ery able body, qualified americano serve their country. i an, our top are stretched so thin iraq and in afghistan. and now it's a time, because of national security, tchge this wroful policy. ani'm doing just that. there are members, wee up to 152 righ now. but there are members on both sides of the aisle say, parick, i'll vote for it, i just can' cosponsor it. but we're getting to that 218 mark. i want to make sure when it comes up for avote, we'll pass this. we d't want to res, we want to move forward. >> let me ask you the hard procedural queion, though. >> sure. >> until a repal can get through congressand i hear your confidence that i , do unique iwould be appropriate

fothe president to hit the pause button on kicking more people out of theilitar under this policy? while a repeal is conser, ould he u his executive authority to say, let's put a halt to this d stop implemting the policy, stop theitch hunt, sop the processes of kicking people out while a repeal is under consideration? i think there's a distinction here. one thing, i was critical of prident bush. was respectful of th office, but critical of him. the one thing hereis that i criticized psident bush on his signinstatement. congress passed a law and sd we're going to disregard what that congress said. donatwant presidentbama to do the sa thing. here's what you're looking at right now. you're saying,e don't want e presidt to say, let's just forget what the congress did back 16 years ago and igno them. he hors a legal branch of gornnt. and we nd to do it as a congress and put bill on s desk. has been very clear, rachel, that he will sign it. he's been very clear to his secrary of defense and joint chiefs that he wants to make sure we're looking at how we're

going to implement a change in policy. it's our job now to act th sense of urgenc tomake it happen. we have the momentum of the americanpublic, we have even a former chairman of the joint iefsf stff. have general colin poell, whhas come out and said, who is one of t authors of the don' ask, don't tell policy6 yearsago, who h said now, we need to revaluate this and relook at it. i have the forr superinteent of the u.s. nal academy who s said, we nd to repe don't as don't tell. we have over 75% of the american public. it doesn't matter if u're in a conservative dtrict or a liberal distri if you'rean american, you should believe in equality. you should believe in th oath at we all take as an ay ficer, that we take as a congressman, to support and defend t constitution of the unit states and that constution guaiante equality for everybody when you're in baghdad in 138-degree heat like i was actly ghyears ago, when

that guy or you woman is on your lt or right, you don't care what their sexual orntation is, what theirrace, religion, r creed is. u can care whether or not they can fire an m-4 assault fle, whether they can kick down a door. that'shat this is about. that's why we nd to repeal this. now the time to make it haen. >> i think you just demonstrated why you're the right guy to be leading this fight rye now. congressman patric murphy,raq war teran, takinghe lead on the effort to reverse don't ask, don't tell. good luck wi your effts. thanks for your me. >> thankou, rachel. you're a great american. coming up, we'llet the inside story on how theederal governmentopped the manknown as the unibomber, ted zinsky, we'll hear the story from the mawhoturned him, his belove brother, david kaszszynski, and his view on how arica should dealing with convicted terrorists. whererwill you find the stabililand resources to keep you ahead of t this pidly evolving world?? these are toquestions.

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th big"c" consvative argumenthat guantanamo can't be closed amountssubstantially the argument that it's ju too risky to put dangerous peop in american prisons. you think that i there's one thing americans left, rit, and

centan agree on it's that wee good at locking people up. my lifspan in this country has en largelyhe time of the laest experiment ofss incarceratn in the history of stern world. in trying to make that argumt and in tying to contextualize the arguments against closing guantanamo, i have frequently on this show listed some of t well-kno peoplwe've got in prison in this countr people w give lie to the id thatur country can't reliably operate any sort of prison dead bolt. terroris like omar abul, the blindsheikh, and timothy mcveigh and the uniboer guy, and richa reid and charles freaki manson have all been prison in someone's hometown wiout incident. soone like the unibomber. zacarias mouaoui, arles manson, all some examples of bad guys who have been fely held in u.s. isons. amg those people they ntioned, the unibomb.

theodore kaczynski. he wasonvicted of a domesti bombing campaignhat began in 78 and lasted nearly two decades. he killed three peoplend injured 23 more. his targets were mainly universitiesnd rlines, stions of the modern technology tha mr. kaczynski despised. living alone in a very sll can in montana, it wasn't un1995 wen parts of the unibomber manisto was published in newspapers that mr. kaczynski's si-in-law shared he suspicio with her sband, david, that ted might be the unibomber. david, ted' younger brother, recognized his other's sty of writing andeliefs in the manifesto and evtually he took his spicions to the fbi. ted kaczyki was arrested at his remote cabin in math april 3rd, 1996. he's currently serving a life term in the federal supermax prison in colorado. david kaczynski, d's younger brother, has devoted his lifeo pele with mental illness and the criminal justicsystem and to camigning against the death

penalty. he's executivedirector of the alternative to the death penalty. wrote "brothers: 26 stories of love and rivalry." mr. kaczynski, thank very much for making the decision to be on the show. >> a gre delight to be with yo >> when you see the clip ose clips from this show, how does it fe to see your brother ed as an example of dangous person who's being pt safy away from society in prison? >> iteels incredi d. ted's life didn't start ou that way. he w a brilliant student, he was a good big brother, was a kind person, think, until he became mentally ill. he was o tracko become a real contributor to our culture d our ciety. unfortunately, because ohi mental illness, thgshanged dramatically. so it most in some ways feels like you're talking about somebody else, not t brother i knew. >> yove become -- you'v devoted your adult lifeo

tivism against the death penalty. and i know that the justicesoug penalty agait ted. but in the end,hey did not succeed. his wife was spared. he'sserving a life term in prison. why do you thk that they sought the death penalty against him? did you understand tha decision, and how did that mke you feel? >> it made me fl ful. made fl betrayed. ey knew that ted was mentally ill, andyet i think they sought the death penalty becauses this political pressure. this was the unabomr, after all. the person responsible f the longest running and most expensive investign in the hiory of the fbi. i think therwas political pressure to do this. >> have yo had contact to people who survived attacks by your brother, people who are family membe of those who he kied >> most have foundone way or another thank m my mom wanda and i had aery moving meeting afthe trial with one fmily that lost a ved one. i'm actuall almost best friend i mean very go

frs, with one of te's surviving victims,ary wright of salt lakety, who is just a wonderful guy. for me,hat's a sver lining. garys very dearo me a cle frie. >> one of the reons, of course, they would be thanking you is because it was your decion after you read the nisto, spected that the unabomber ght be your bther ted, that you ultimately went to the authorities. ihave to correctyou, rachel, only in the sense that my we lind reallyis the unng ero. she was the first peon to suspect. the decision w made s very much joint decision between twoeople o love ech other very much and share some basic values. >>id you know what to do once nda shared her suspicions and you started to realize you might share them? did you know what that meant you wod have to do a how wou you go through wit it and -- i understand it was a long, complicated process? >> the most agonizin part was, of course, the realizationo matter what we did, could lead to somebody else'sath.

if wedid nothing, the end result might be if the unabomber was my brother andtruck again, we would have blood on our hands. somebody would ha died because we had faile to act. on the other hand, we als understoodhat turning in ted could result in his deh if he was found glty and sentenced to death. that was just agonizg. it felt like an absolutely horrific dilemma to face. >> ultimately how did you decide? >> i think ultimatel itas the realization that lin and i both share ad we just uldn't live wh ourselves if some he innocent personad died because we h failed to act. we had to do what we couldo save innocent lis and then we had to do whatever we could to save ted's life. >> have you had any contact with ted sie that time and since he been ins carse rateed? >> i have only seen him at his trial and at his trial dn't acknowledge methere. mom and still write to ted and never wres back. it's almost like he's in t

prisons. one ishe federal maximum prison where he will spend the rest of his life and the other is theental illness, wch may be just ascruel. >> when we'reebing now as a nation, inome ws it's in the beltway and some ws it's re real coast to coast about what do about teorm. your broth is a specific case when it cos to terrorism. itertaiy was in his mind politically motived violence was committing, politically motivated murders. 'sn the larg context of the war on terror, it's hrd to fit him into that sort of a concept. do y see his case as a terrorist case? do you flike learning out what happened to him, what caused him to do what he did gis you any insight into how americanshould be thinking about terrorism? >> i actuallyhink my brother committed technicallyegally acts of terrorism that the best way to underd what was ing on with tedas to understand thate has schizophrenia. on the other hand, ihink it's ry clear -- i'm not anxpert on prison security, buto my knowledge,nobody has ever

escaped from a federal maximum security prisn, and i think we rest assed that people like m brother and the terrorists whore locked up in florence, colorado,re not getting out. ey're not going to be able to hurt anybody else. >> did kaczynski, who is the brother ted kaczynski, who is known as the unabomb, who is a coributor to this new book call "bthers," and whis the executive drector of "new yorkerfor alternives to the death penalty." thanyou so much for being willing to come on show and ta about this. thanksor writing about your storabout your relatiship with your brother in such moving ways in brothers." 's really an amazing essay you have written. thanks. >> thank you. cong up on "countdown," keith finds out about the testimony ofhe gentleman from texas who known affectionately to his friends as turd blossom, alough would i nevecall him that. first, kenent jones reports on thescalating battle between a very small dictaanvery largrgsect (annocer) we speak car.

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we turn noto our coespondent kent jones. >> hi, rachel. . >> no fewerr tn two world aders ve engaged in handndo-handombat with insects. >> thas right. > i havto go on record sayig think this setets dangerous precedt. let's tata a loo >> okay. y youay have seenhe video of iranian present mahmoud ahmadined ing battle with a rely big fly today and losing. of course, you can't hel comparing that to prident obama's famo fly-killin isode. so, ha, h we in, right? wrong! both ahmadinejad a obama made the mistakeof thinking that humansould control the insect world. fat chance, bipeds. it's their pnet went just li in it. for instance, bees interrupted a majoleague baseball game last week for52 minutes.

in 2007, the yankees/cleveland playf game was decided by flies. do you rlly think insectscare about our silly ttle pastime? theyo not. sqtoes cause malaria. when he wand scare a crowd, bi gates leased a jar fl t t little blood suers. fire ants s cadodohis, wow. bedbdbss prove that insects d dn cacarebobo our ddres,s, either. fleassauauseububon plague. no, thanank u.u. and cockroaches,, well,,hehey r ththe place. soso m message t to ahmamanenej is -- beery caful of t tyiyingo pose yoour will an adversary that oututmbmber you, thahat faster than you,u, tt t more orgaganid d th you, and that en angered,ill never stop swarming u unt t theultimately prprevl. have a nice e sendnderm.