cia director this he told them. withha ladies and gentlemen, here is rachel maddow. od evening, rachel. >> good evening, keith. thank you very much for th. it is sort of an amazing story we will be talking autarah palin and mark sanrd and senator john ensign of nada this hour. ye the original summertime republanall from grace story actually gets fallier from grace tonight. you thought the jo ensign andal was over. the is more. we'll iscussing republican se-destruction with "the new york times" columnist jeff rich he'll be joining me he in the studio. that is all to come. but we are beginning with some breakg news cia officials haveisled congress since 2001. that is no longer just a controversiaalgation from speaker ofhe house nancy pelosi. it ialso now an admission. reportedly coming directlyrom the head of thcia. leon panetta. today a letter has surfaced. it was a letter written to leo panetta om seven democratic

members of the hse intelligenceommittee and the letterays this. quote, dear direct panetta, you recall, no dou, that on may 15th, , you stated the following in a lter to cia employees let me be clear, it is not our policy orractice to mislead ngress. that is againsour laws and values. recentlyyou teified that you have determined that top cia officis have concealed signifanaction from all members of congress and misl members foa number of years from 2001 to thiweek. this isimilar to other deceptions of which we are are om other recent periods. in light of ur testimony, we ask that you publicly rrect your statement of may 15th, 2009. they don't actlly say meow, but 's implied. and it is signed, sincerely, a eshoo, rush holt, mime ompson and adam smith.

it was signed by ln panetta january 5th. it was sent to him twoays after he briefed the house commtee. now, these sev signatories are considered allies of the speaker of the house, nancy losi. her contention thathe cia deliberately misled r and othemembers of the congress about waterboarding is wha prompted the cia to sue their "wdon't mislead anyone" rebutt way back in may. now these members ofongress are saying tt leon panetta directly contradicted at statement and mied that the cia has misled congress, bute did it in testimy behind closed drs. they now want hito say it in publ. for its part, the cia is sticki to its guns, releasing a statement toght, once again reiting, quote, it is not thpolicyr practice of the cito mislead congress. joining us now to follow all o this smoo its fiery source is "newsweek" inveigative correspondent and msnbc contributor michael ikoff. mike, thanksery much for joing us. >> great to with you, rachel.

>> first, do you think that i've mmariz this right? members ofhe house say that leonanetta admitted something behind closed doors at he ought to fess up to inublic. that about right? >> well, wheer they're saying he ought to fess up tot in publ is a little unclear. but its very hard to tell at this point whether we are talking about a series potential federal ime here, and it is a federal crime r e cia to conceal inrmation or lie to congress, as chairman reyes said, or whether this is a politicafood fight by the democrattrying to defend speaker pelosi from what they view as bogus charges by the republicans relang to her comments about wartbrding, because we don't know what undeyi information is. wenow that it is not related to the intergation dispute, thatresumably sparked this, because that's wt the whole issue a waterboarding when

pelosi said that she was misled about terboarding. we know that from both sid o this that the underlyi program was highly classified. it's not clear that th was some program that was coealed entily as opposed to what we think it is, w some adjustment orodification to an ongoing told about, but was noto as about the dification. so there's aot of unanswered questions here, but ere's unquestionably a l opolitics behind this. >> it certainly seems, particularly becausef e list of signatories, because it's only members of the use inlligence committee from the democratic pty who have signed on tthis, and because of the brouhahaver nay pelosi in the past, it certainly see like tre's some politics at work here. but th t timing seems really weird. the letter is dated june 26th. so it's been out for a feweeks now. it's just surfaced tay.

the on thing twe know that's going on in intelligence politics right now is that there is a bill, the intelligee bill is moving through congress that has some controversial asseions about how many members of cgress should be in on the supersecretefings. do you think tt it's possible th this whole kerfuffle, the release of this document is related to thabill, to trying to change rrent context. >> absolutely. that bill was scheduled to come to the house floor torrow. and one of t extraordinary things that happed today is that the white house, the obama ite house threatened to veto the bill if it included a ovision that speaker pelosi and the house democrats put in itrequiring all members of the intelligence committeeo be nofied about covert programs as oppos to the so-called gang of eight, just the chairs t relevant committees anthe leadership of both chambers.

look, the decrats put that in there. pelosi put thain the, because they said the gang of eight waso subject to manipulation, the wasn't enoughversight going on and it's hard after everhing that we saw ding the bush admistration years to quarrel with that. anyet there is the obama white house saying, no, wet to be able trerict the information at goes to congress about covert action programs, so much so that they were threatening to veto the bill. i can tell you, tonight, as a result of that veto threthat hoe bill is probably going to be pulled from the houseloor tomorrow, beuse the democrats e afraid to push it with that veto threat hanginover it. >> befly, mike, are you expecting leon panetta to clr any at it is that he said and ether or not that initial statement that we don't miead anybodneeds to be clarified or he'll keep mum andet theia spokesn to deal with this? >> hard tonow. the statementonighthe agency put out is remarkably unrevealing, saying -- and besides, only that thecame

forward on h o, that panetta came fward on his own to disclose it. we'll have to see whether al this smokes him ouor not. >> michael isikoff, "neweek" correspondenand nbc contbutor, a man who is very much on top of this uf thanks very ch for joining us tonighon short notice. apeciate it. >> thank you. afr markanford's steamy coespondence became public, you would think we would have met our quota for thsummer of heark letters from hypocritical eleed official ultere, but no. welcome back to e spotlight, nevada senat john ensign whose sex scandal now cos th a inge-making handwritten footnote of his own. "e new york times" columnt frank rich will jin us shortly to talkbobout the popost republican party valalues.

prpresenent ama today got to see whatat he ulullook like on mt. rushmore. courtesy of thth b banr unfurled by intntpipid ck climbing, rerepeing greenpeace proteststs.

the top of the face e of m rushmore is momo t tha5,000 feet up at lunchtitimeododaytwo greenpnpcecersepelled on to abraham lincoln's s fohehead a third greenpeaeacer stst himself f waouout the right. and d battngngigh winds, they spad out this. a bannererhahat ys "america nonorseaders, not politicianan stop global warmining." president obobama s s italy todaday,ryryinto get an reement between the g-8 8 countries. on cuttininththe issions that cae e obal warming. so f faratat lst, it looks like a big new alal inot going to happen onon that subject anytitime sn.n. still, thougugh,lolobawarming opopnenentremain optimistic ababt the chance for changnge th ththe w american president. meantime, they have ththe viviab dilemma of deciding whwhetr r to shop the photo o op omom tir latest publicity stuntnto o moer jones or men's's heah.

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the rsmajor republican sex and corrtion scandal of the summ, twice buried, is now reaching out fm beyond the grave. new detail and scandalous evidence surfaces to further, of all things, e johnnsign sex scandal. today e "las vegas sun" blished a handwritten letter purportedly written john ensign to thcampaign staffer heasdmitted to having an affair with. her na cindy hampton. e letter is dated february 2008, atould have been during the time of t affai according to the sator's own time line. the letter reads, ciy,his is the most important letter ve ev written. what i did with you s wron

i was completely self-cented innly thinking of myself. i used you for my own pleare. i betrayed everything i believe in. i lied to myself over and ov. i justified my aions because i blamed my wi. doug has been a great frnd to me over thars and i threw alover that away over wantg to feel good. i take 100% responsibility f my actions, plain and simple, it was ong. it was sin. we called jo ensigs office today to confirm that this letter in fact written by him. they havnot returned our calls soar. the letteras given to the "las vegas sun" by the husbd of hampton, who's referend theug letter hampton today also filled in a few of the other outrageously scandalous blanks this story. he admitted he was tempting to extort millions of dollars out of senator ensign. mr. hampton also said th within 24 hours of wting this plaintive tt, senator ensign was alady back to pursuing his life. ensign, that weekendreportedly

telling doug hampton, que, i'm in love with your wife. and know from ensign's own admission thathe affair didn't end until six months afterhis, all has to be over now,t was sin letter was dat. mr. hampton also says that h wife was paid er25,000 sevence by john ensign when e left his office during the affair in april of last year. that may pe some serious ethic problems for sator eign. we already knew at her pay had been doubled during e me of the affair, but it was not previously known how mh her severance package was worth. and cindy hamptoherself is now publly calling for her ex-boyfriend, john ensign to resign. mewhile, from ensign's republican colleagues in senate, we have still heard nothing. senator vitter, still no comment, really? also, no comnt from the republan party establishment. that's aimportant part of this. because weearned at the start of the scandal that republican party fus were used to put engn's mistress' 19-year-old son on theayroll of the nationepublican senatorial committee while ensign shared

that kme. it means, esntially, republican party dors were paying ensigs mistress' son at s behest. we cled the nrsc today and they refd all questions on the matter to setor ensign's office. like i said, he's nocalling us back. but the nrsc did tell us tha they haven't recveany complain from republican party dors thus far. what, 's supposed to be weird now to have the teenage so of yourenator mistress on the yroll? then there also republican senator tom coburn, who has been dragged into this yet agai we placed a ll to his office t again for his comment because his name surfaced t again today. doug hampton sd at he read this letter in the urging ofnd in t presence of senator coburn. setor coburn was one of ensign's roommat. and he alleges that coburn confronted eign about the affair and saihe should pay the hampto millions of dolls. senator coburn offic has previously resisted our effort

for mmts on this matter, but today they did give us this statement. quote, dr. coburdid evything he cou to encourage senator ensign endthis affair and to persuade senator ensinto repa the damage he had caused his own marriage and the hampton's marriage. had senator sign followed dr. coburn's adve, this episode wod have ended and been made public long ago. the connection between cobur and ensign happeo be the sa connection that connects this republican sex scandal wi the other republic sex scandal stilongoing, the one of governor mark sanford. the connection is house in washington cald "c" street. coburn and ensign both lived together that was madeamous when mark sanford mentioned it in his lon ramblg, i was sleeping witthe argentinian la speech. he said that he received support from c streeturing the time he was continuing that secret affair with the woman in original tina. that wou he been roughly the same time john ensign was getting advic fromis c street

fries about how best to pay ofthe woman he was having his secret affair with. kind of sounds la fun house. meanwhil in south carolina today, presumably in an effort to show how the new st-scandal mark sanford is going to be different from the old e-scandal mark sanford, sanfors office, for the first me in the whole 6 1/2 years he's beegovernor, released a public schedule of events for him. we've been waiti 6 1/2 years toinout where he's going to be this week. d here it is. no plic events are currently scheduled for the remainr of the week. tada! the common beltway cventional wisdom about the scandals is that mk nford was going to be saved because of go political timing being overshadowedy goveor sah palin's awkward signation and the overwhelmi story ofichael jackson's death. then againconventional wisdom alsoaid the john ensign scandal was gone t and that came bwith a handwritten vengeance today. beltway of wisdom also holds that sarah palin would be a republican rock star and a fundaising magnet, despite the

damage she's done to herwn elecd office prospects recently. that, it turns out, may so be wrong. the's news today that the republican candidates in the onlyajor statewide elections this year, theovernors races in new jersey d virginia, are both cool to the idea of palin joining them on e campaign trail. republican bob mcdonnell of virgin told the associated prs he still doesn't fully understand the announct palin made auter own career. and a statement from chris christie told the ap, we don have any plans on having her win. times" columnist frankic york thanks for coming in. i had mark mckinnon on the show last night, and i had plned to ask him if hwas working for reblican gubernatorial candidate right now, would h want palin to coaise money. at theast minute, i didn't ask him the question, because i felt it was so obvious that the answeras yes. course, anyone would want palin to come raise money for em.

now iteems le that common wisd might be wrong. do you think that's coect? >> it's ha a half. the majority of the country, which means blue ameri and purple ameca, east persona non grata. that's why they don't wa her into virginia and new jersey, bee she'll only her their cause in closed ces and states that are obama states. e problem is, she is the biggest star in the repuican rty. this is althey have left. we're seeing wt's haening to all the other poteial stars. sign and sanford both thought they were possibly potenti candidates for the next go round, so palin probably is biest fund-raiser for the party. the question is, how they maneuver this get h into places wherehey'll love her, uth carolina, utah, idaho and nofurther damage the national republican brand, althou you have twonder, it's so damaged, maybe it doesn't even makeny difference at is point. >> one of e ironies of all the republican self-destction this summer is thathas been all

of these pple from the very same st of of the party. these faly vals conservatives, ensign and saord and palin. i don't feel like '90s politics e going to come back. i don't feel like they be a family values party anymore if only just because all this embaassing hypocrisy. but i don't lieve that right-wing republicanism is going to go away. that if they lose the family values platform, whado they run on instead >> you see it most of al sarah palin, is th sense of grievance against the elites starting with obama, b then the mainstream, soalled mainstre or liberal media. and also the elite of th republican party. they don't really ke people like mark mckinnon, for instance. and so there is this kinof populist, any thing going on. a lot of it focused onbama,

but there's a following for . and it'separate from the me-sex marriage, abortion, those issues. it related to it, but it's different. d that's the note palin's been hittin wh st of policies would a movement like that support? >> nothing good. i mean, it really --he only licy is, you know, i see russia from state. i mean, thwhole point, it has no real content. 's this unfocused anger. you see it on someone like gnn beck, someone th's aimed at wall street,hich is traditioy a big part of the republican party. but it's just kind of -- alst neolistic, and therefore, somewhat scary if it bns out of control and a probl the party has to deal wi. >> theart of it i see a little scary, and i realize other people areocing on this as the main parof sarah palin's weirimplosion over the past week. but her railing againsthe ethic colaints. first all, there aren't that many ethics complaints.

there are three tstanding. the mo serious ones were all fired before she g tapped for the vp. but to focus on that issue, that why she had to get out of office, ethics comaints, this accountabity stuff. to crusade again accountability, citizenseans of keeping tir elected officis in control, seems to me to be a pretty -- a sorof dangerous fof grievance poti for people who actually want to get elected. >> right. partularly as the party that's still coming off the abroff scandal, newt ngrich had his own set of scandals that a not that far in the past. but i think it's kinof a desperatiotory to find somethg and it will be something else. but underlying it is, you ow, you look down on you look down on us workg people who go out fishing and have, yoknow, grandchildren of wedlock and you're a bunch of sbs and it's a minori market for this. but it's a loud one and itill shell out money foheand for repuican candidates she supports in those placeshere

she is wanted. >> briefly, do democrats just stand by and watchhihappen? is this a fire ty just watch burn in the republican party, or should they behrowinpeople cans of gaand helping this ong in some way? >> think the democrats should nore it. let them cmit hay carey and deliver on the promises that obama has made to e country. >> oh, y radical. >> rad idea. >> fra rh, "new york times" columnist, thanks for coming i coming up, theelebrated fourth of july in north korea this year by shooting more missiles into the sea. very inefficient means of fishing. but they ao sort of tried to shut down "t washington post." a very strange war story, coming up. d a new taped message from guy who is supposed to be dead. it's all coming n n eveday acids can cause ieversible loss of enamel.

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>still ahead, the firstst iq veteran n elteted congress launches a new effffortoto overturn donon'tsksk d't tell. congressman patrick k muhyhy jns us shortrt. plus, ththmaman o turned his owown ototr in. and thereby stopped d onofof t longest t memest terror campmpgngns this country. david kzynski, who is the brother of the manan kwnwn athe unibomomr r wi be joining us rere and mymy fenend nt jones has on t tapththstruggle between mahmhmd d ahdinejad and a a fl that's a allomominup. > rsrst,t's time for a upup of holy mackerel stororie in today's news.s. if like me you tried to gogo t the website ofof "e e waington postst" ststday afternoon and fofounyourself unable to proceed with a big awkward netetwo e err

meage staring you in the facace, you are not alone.e. you may have also encounteterea network erroror ssssagover the stst f days at the website of f the secret servicece, e e treasury, and d enen t white house. what was goingng o turns ouout rtrth rea was waging war on us. maybe. at l lstst, at's what the south koreans are sayiying starting july 4th, morore anan t dozen majojor rprpore and gogornrnme websites in south korea and ththu.u.s.ere hit with widedespadadesilient, hard to stop denial of s sercecettacks. now, deniaiaofof svice attacks are the easiest kindnd ohahaing. yoyoessentially make someoeone website unusabab b by king so much f faktrtrfic that their seers poop out. the sosoh h koans are intimating that this latetestouou of attacks susuccdedeas much as it didibebecae it was a sophisistiteted,oordinated, not ururarden variety dns hackck. the south h rereanational intelligence servicece p o out

statement that s sai q quo, this is not a a splple tack by an individual hacker,r, b a aears to be a thororoulylylanned and execututedy y specific organization or r on s ste leleve by which they mean, north korerea'wawagi cyberwar on the u.s. government. and "the w wasngngtopost," for some reason.n. ybe they're mad about t daruru frumkin fireretotoo. up next, an n inigigng mysterery omom iq. s.s.roops have now pulled d ba from iraqi cities. l l u. combat brigades are d d to be e nene fm iraq by the end ofofext summer. and by the e endf f thyear after that, there are supposos t to nono u. . trps at all left in ir. todada a an dio message was isissu by al qaeda in iraq sasang, quote, even if thehe americicanrerein nowhere but a all spot in the iraqi i sesert so every muslilim ouou battle ththemntntilhey are expelled. ththiss not exactly a surprise message from al qaqaedinin iq. they are, after all, al l qaa a iraq.

fofoeded scifically in response tos invading that country, which h hanener had al qaeda bereret had us. th said, there is one susuririse about this new m mesgege q qda says the voice on t the tape is s a y y med abu omar al baghdadi, the leadererf f thr grgrou the reasasont't's rprising to hehearrom them because the iraqi gogovemementays they've been holding him in jail since e th spring. the iraqi governmementveven reased this picture of t t m man they say is abu omar a al baghdadi. c crse, the man in this picture e los s thing like the main this other picture, andnd 's's t guy who the news channel clclai r rlly is abu om al baghdadi. bubuitit gs weird, two years ago the iraq government sasayshehey killed abu o or r alaghdadi. the u.u.s.ililary said at the ti, the iraqis couldn't t veve killed h himececse it was the opinion of thehe utestates mimitary that abu omar al l baghghdidi w a myth. he did not exixist in fact, he was an actoror. soso ehehetoday's anti-american dio message was sent b by y a y

inin jl or by a guy who provov the e aqaqisave the wrong guy in il, or by a dead guy, , ory y an toto it's your r ca. we report, you find ititerery diicult to decide. the directctworld. buick k enclthe finest l luxury crsover ever. i ne se zen time with this mol thank you.

patrick murphy serveas an army ctain in the 82nd rborne division in iraq. he was awardedhe bronze star. he's also been a profeor at west point, a crimal prosecutor, anin 2006 he was e rst veteran of the iraq war to be elected to congrs. in his fir month in office, congssman murphy introduced the iraq war de-escati act to responsibly whdraw troops from iraq on a time line. he introduced that legislation alongside a young democratic senar th the hardo-remember name of barack obama. now in his second term in congress, ngressn murphy has just annou that he is taking on ld sponsorship of a bill that president barack obama says he would sigif it gets to his sk. it's legisla that would

repealon't ask, don't tell. >> the policy is n working for armed rvices and it hurts our national security. president barack obama has stated that if cgress gets a bill to s desk repealing don't ask, don't tell, he will sign to law. it is now our joanmy job specifically tquarterback this to the coness of the united states to just at. >>redent obama has, of urse, been emphatic and consistent ihis statements that he is opposed to n't ask, don't tell that he thinks that openly men and women shou be allowed toerve in the u.s. military. what's been in question tohose who share the present's views on the issue is the nse of urgey that he has about getting the repealone. as of now, getting it done in congress ithe job for which paick murphy has decided to volunteer. joining us n iiraq war veteran,ongressman patrick murphy.

thanks vermuch for joining us tonight, sir. tnks so much, rachel, for having me. >>s far as i know, you've got 151 cosponsors so far. i would love it for u to translate th number into how likely it is that this bill actually gets passed by e house this year. >> we need 2 votesn the house ofepsentatives actually got one aouple hours ago. another congressman ju signed on. so we're making progress every day. i've been quarterbacking this, rachel, as you menoned, for out a ek now and we need to act with a sense of urgency put this on thesident's desk >> can i ask whoour new signup is? >> sure. it's joe bhia, one of the cochairs othe hispanic caucus here in the house of representatives. excellent. you're aeteran yourself, obviously, decorated with a bronze star, a married m, a blue dog democt, you represent nnsylvia, conservative on a t of fiscal issues. why did you decide that you were the y to take point on this issue? why doeshis mean so much to you? >> sure. rachel, i served in army

since 1993 and served with some great soldiers who werkicked out of the army nobecause of any sexual misconduct, but just because of theirexual orientation, just because they were gay. this is a national secity issue, rachel. the fact that we leto over 13,000 tros -- that's over 3 1/2 combat brigades. and now is the time toepl it. we've got to get it through th house and in the senate and got to gethe president to sign this. >> t president does say that he wantso peal the law. he has said that he looks forward to getting aill from congress. has the white house been helping you with yr efforts? i kn you've been going around meeting people, r members of the hous face to face, you've beenorking personally to try to move thisill. e you getting direct suprt from thehite house? >> i think the president last week, his instructions tboth the chairmanf the joint chiefs of staff and all the secretary of defense to say, we look at the policy, we look at the

implementaon of it, but really the issue is, rachel, is, th was an act ocongress that made don't don't tell into law. it will take an active congres to fix that mistake 16 years. and it's our job as a congre to get bkbone, to have the courage to get this passed. we can't punt this to the president. we can't pt thiso the urts. it's our job. and it's my job to quaerback this. and we're going to make it happen. >> when you go around d meet wi members of congress on this, the ones who are against this, who y that they're nogoing to support you on this, youan't count on their te, do they make good arguments? when people are arguing ait don't ask,on't tell, are you findinyourself in solidly, rigorous intelctual debates about thrits of the policy? >> i think that woulbe a stretch, to honest with you. i ink, you know, metimes, frankly,t's disheartenin i've only been here for 2 1/2 years, b sometimes they give the excuse of, i can't do it in my district, i'mn a tough district that's republicansnd democrs.

theye li, murph, i'd love to be with you. but we have lo 13,000 troops. we're w losing about two per day. we need evy able body, qualifieamican to serve their country. i mean, our troops are stretched so thin inraq and in afanistan. and now it's a time, becau o national security, to chge this wrongful policy. ani'm doing just that. there armembers, we're up to 152 right no but therare members on both sides of the aisle saypatrick, i' vote r it, i just can't cosor it. but we're getting to that 218 mark. i wanto make sure when it mes up for a vote, we'll pass this. we don't want toegss, we want to move it forward. >> let me ask you thhard procedural question, th. >> sure. >> until a real can get througcongress, and i hear yo confidence that it ca do unique it would be appiate for the esent to hit the pause button on kickg more people out of the military under this policy? while repeal is considered,

should huse his executive authority to saylet's put a halt to this and stop implementing the poly, stop the tch hunt, stop the processes of kicng people out ile a repeal is under consideration? >> i thi there's a distinction he. one thin i was critical of prident bush. i was respectful of the offi, but crital of him. the one thinhere is that i criticized president bush on his signing statemt. congress passed law and said we're going to disregard what that congress said. youon't want president obama to do the same thing. here wt you're looking at now, here's what you' looking at right w. you're saying,don't want the esent to say, let's just forget what the congress d back 16 years agand ignore them. he honors a legal brch of government. and we need to do it as a congress and put a bill onis desk. heas been very clear, rachel, that he willn it. he's beevery clear to his secretary of defense and joint chiefs that wants to make sure we're loo at how we're going to implement a change policy. it's our job now to act with a sense of urgency to maket happen. have e momentum of the

american plic, we have even a form chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. we have general colin powell, who s comeut and said, who is of the authors of the don't ask, don't tell licy 16 years ago, who h said now, we need tre-evaluate this and relo at it. i have the former supentende of the u. naval academy who hasa, we need to repeal don't ask, don't tell. we have ov 75% of the american publ. it doesn't matter if you'r a nservative district or a liberal district. if you're an arican, you shouldelieve in equality. you shld believe in that oath that we all take aan arm officer, that we take as a congressman, to supporand defend the constitution of the united states. and that constitutioguarantees equalityor everybody. no matter -- and i will tell you whatrachel, when you're in bagad in 138-gree ht like i was that guy or young womaisn hen your left or right, you don't carehat their sexual orientation is, what their r religi, eir creed is.

you care whether onot they can fire an m-4 assault fle, whetr theyan kick down a do. that's what thiss about. that's we need to repeal is. now is the time to make it happen. >> i thinkou just demonstrated why u're the right guy to be ading this fight right now. congssman patrick murphy, iraq he war vetera taking the lead on the effort to reverse don't as don't tell. good luck with your effort thanks for your me keep us prised. >> will do, rachel. you're great american. >> thank y. coming up, we'll g the inside storyn how the federal vernment copped the man knn caught the man known as the unibomber, tekazinsky, we'll hear the sryrom the man who turnedim, his beloved brother, david kaczynski, , and his views on how amerirican shou be dealingith icted terroris cious white whwh wrecked my boat. well, i'm sure we can help you, captain... ahab. wellll loo like you haven' haa claim in or r fo years, so you don't h hae to pay a deductiblb. that means you sasaved $5!

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announcer: now, a free phone service shows captions of everything a caller says. i'd like to make an appointment to see the doctor. announcer: to learn more about captioned telephone, call 1-800-552-7724 or go to our website. i'll see you at 3:00! announcer: captioned telephone - enjoy the phone again! the bi" conservative argumenthat guantanamo can't be clod amounts substantially to the argumt that it's just too risky to put danrous people in erican prisons. you think that if thers one thing americans ft, right, and center can agree on it's tt we're good at loing people up. mye span in this country has been largelyhe time of the largest periment of mass incaeration in the history of weerworld. trying to make that argument

and in trying toontextualize the arguments against clg guanna, i have frequently on th show listed some of the well-known people we've got in prison in th country. people w give lie to the idea thatur country can't reliably operate any sort of prison dea bolt. terrorists like omar abd, the blind shkhand timothy mcveigh and the unomber guy and chard id and charles frking manson have all been in prison in someone's town without cint. even vy wl-known people, like the unaboer, timothy mcveig zacarias moussaoui, charles nson, all some examples of bad guys who have been safely held in u. prisons. among those people they among those op that i mentiod, the unabomber, eodore kaczynski. he was convicted of domestic mbing campaign that began in 1978 and lasted nearlywo decades. he killed three people and injured 23 more. his targets were maiy universities and airlis,

bastions of the morn technology that mr. kaczynski despised. living alo in a very small cabin in montana, it wasn't unti1995 when parts of the unabomber manifesto wa published in newspaperthat mr. kaczynski's sister-in-law shared her suspions with her husband, david, that ted mit be the unabomber. david, ted's younger brother, recognized his brother's sle of writing and belie in the manifesto anentually he took hisuspicions to the fbi. ted kaynski was arrested at in his remote cabin on april d, 1996. he's currently serving a life rm in the federal supermax prison in colorado. david kaczynsk ted'sounger brotr, has devoted his life to people wh mental illness and the criminal justice system and to campaigning against theeath penalty. david kaczynski's executive director for new yorkersor the alternative to the death penalty. for the fist time he's written out his relationship wi the brother he gr up with and admid. he wrote "brothers: 26 stories love and rivalry."

mr. kaczynski, thanks ry much for king the decision to be on the show. thank you r ing here. >> it's a great delight to be with you. >> when you see those clips, those ips from this show, ho does it feel to e your brother useds an example of a dangous person who's being kept safely away from society in prison? >> it feels incredibly sad. ted'life didn't start out that way. he was a brilliant student, he was a good big brother, heas a kind person, i think, until he beme mentally ill. was on track to become a al contributor tour culture and our sociy. unfortunately, because of his mental illness, things changed dramatically. so it almostn some ways feels like y're talking about somebody else, not the brother i ew. >> you've become -- yo devoted your alt life to activism against the death penay. and i know that e justice department sought the death nalty against ted. but in the e, they did not succeed. his wife was spared. he's serving a life term in prison. why did you think they sought

the death penalty mad me feelwf betrayed. they knew that ted w mentally ill and, t, i think they sought the death penalty because there was polical pressure. that was the unabomber, after all. the peon responsib for the most criminal instigation in the story of the fbi. i thi there was political presre to do it. >> yeah. have y had contact with people who survived attacks by your brother, people who are family members tho who he killed? >> mostve found onewa or another to thank me. my mom and i had aery moving meeting after the trial with one family that lost a loved one. i'm almost best friends with one of his victims, gary wright. to me that, i a silver ining. gary is dear te and a close friend. >> one of e reasons, of cour, they would be thankg you is because it was your

decision aft you rd the manifesto, suspected that t unabomber might be you brother, ted, that you ultimately wen to the authorities. >> i have to correctyou. rachl, only in the sense that my wife linda is the unsung hero. itas aoint decision between two people o love ea other very much and share values. >> did you know at to donce linda shared her suspicionsnd youarted to realize you mit share them? diyou know what that meant you would have to do and h would yogo thrgh with it and -- i understand it was a long, complicated process? >> the most agonizinpa was, of coue, the realization no maer what we did, could lead to somebody else's death. if we did nothin the end result mht be if the unabomber was my brother and suck again, we would have blood onur hands. somebo would have died because we had failed to act on the other hand,e also understood that turning in ted uld result in his deatif he was found guty and sentenced to death.

that was just agizing. it felt like an absolutely horrific dilemma to face. >> uimately, how did you decide? >> i think ultimately itashe realization that lindand i both share thad we just couldn't ve with ourselves if some other innont person had died because we had failed to act. we had to do what weould to save innocent liveand then we had to do atever we could to save ted's life. >>ave you had any contact with ted since at time and since he's been incarcerated >> i have only seen him atis l and at his trial he didn acknowledgme there. mom and i stl write to ted and he ner writes back. it'slmost ke he's in two prisons. one is the federal maximum prison where he will spendhe re of his life and the other is the mental illness, w may be just asru. >> when wee debating now as a naon, in some ways it's the beltway and me ways it's ally coast to coast about what to do about terrorism.

your brother is a specif case wh it comes to terrorism. it certainly was in his nd polically motivated violence he was committg, politically motivated murders. it's in the rger ctext of the war on tr, it's hard to fit him into that sort of a concept. do you see his case a rrorist case? do you fl like learning about wh happened to him, what caused h to do what he did gives you any insight into how americans should be thinking about terrorism? >> i actlly think my brother committed chnically legally acts of terrorism that the best wato understand what was going on with tewas to understand ate has schizophrenia. on the other hand, i think is very clear -- i'not an expert onrison security, but to my knowledge,obody has ever escaped from a federal maximum security prison, and i tnk we carest assured that peop like my brother and the terrorists who are lockeup in flence, colorado, are not getting out. they're t going to be able to hurt anybody else. >> david kacki, who is the

brother of ted kaczyns, who is knowas the unabomber, who is a contributor to this new book called "brothers," a who is the execute rector of "new yorkers for alternatives tthe death penalty." thk you so much for being willing toome on the show and talk about this. thanks for writing abo your story about your relationshi with your brher in such moving ways in "brothers." 's really an amazing essay you have written. thanks. >> thankou. >>coming up on "countdown, keith finds t about the testimy of the gentleman from xas who is known affectiotely to his friends as turd blossom, though would i never ca him that. fit, kent jones reports on the escalating battle betwn a ry small dictator and very large insect.

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turn now to our corresndent kent jones.

>> hi, rachel. >> no fewer than t world leaders have engaged in hand-to-hand combat with insects. that's right. >> i havto go on record saying i think this ss a dangerous precedt. let's take a look. >> okay. >> you may have se the video of iranian president mahmoud ahmadinejad doing battle wita rely big fly today and losing. of coue, you can't help comparing that to president obama's famous fly-killi episode. so, ha, ha, we win, right? wrong! both ahmadinejad and oba made the mistakof ting that humans couldontrol the insect world. fat chance, bipeds. it's their planet went just li in it. for instance, bees interrupted major league basebl game last week for 5minutes. in 2007, the yanesleveland playoff game was decided by flies. do you really think insects care abt our silly little pastime? ey dt. mosquitoes cause malaria.

when he wanted sca a crowd, bill gates released jafull ofhe little blood suckers. fire ants can n do ts,s,ow. dbugs prove that insectsts don carebobo our dreams, either. fls caused bubonic plagugu no, thank you. and ckckaches, well, they run n the place.e. so my y ssssagto ahmadinejad is this -- be very cacarefuofofrying to imimposeououwill on an adversary that o outmbmberyou, that is ststerhan you, that is more e organized than you, and d that whenenngnger, will never stop swswming until they ultimamate prevail. ve a nice second term. >> thank you very muchch, ntnt. absolutetely tririing. cocktatailomomen >> yh.h. >> today's's jul8t8t 2009. >> yes. >> which means a at 124 4 n 36 seconds s the m m gical freak showow wasnenetwo, three, four, fifivesix, seven, eight, ninin