he's scorneded in a loof ways. and i don't know that t he can takeke that. >> micel jackson has always done exactlyly what heants to do his waway, end ostory. ere's no one there to o tell hihim, look look, dude, don't call anynybody a rist at a press conference. listen, trtry not toangle your d out of a window. michchael do it his way. and sometimes to great e effect. you u know, hivideos are fantntasc.c. ♪ causese ts s ishrill, thriller night ♪ >> m mucofof h music has been amazing. u can't knock his stage e peperforncnc all that i is rtrt omichael jajasoson'genius, too. ♪ >> ooh, ooh! >> mhaha jackson charmed his way intoto fs's' hrts as a child and moonwalked i io o surstardom asn n ult.

his behavior off thehetatageas memetis puzzling and even laed him in court. still, he will be reremeerered momo o of l for the groundbreaeakingonon and dance moves that defineded h. heasas thriller, the undispsput k kinof pop. i'm lester holol anan for watching. cacaptns paid for by c-c-unersal television this sununda w witthe prpresent on the world stage, , his agenda i is deder re back home. crititicchchar his stimulus plan istuck, while the number o of unemployoyedmemerins continues to climb. d democrats appear in didisarr over the president's's masveve heththare overhaul. meanwhilile, t p pitical world reinins zzled by palin.

after her r ruruptesignation, atat'sext for her and the gogo with us, t theanan w put her on e e potical map by choosing her asasisis rning mate during the 2008 presidentntiacacampgn, arizona senator john m mccai then the view w fr t thether side of the aisle. neyoyo senator chuck schumerer. nally, the take from ourur polititicarorounable. karen hughes, rerepuicican sttegist and former coununlolor toreredent george w. bush, b bob schrumum, d demratic s satategt anand sioior advisese to the go and kryry preresideiaiacampaign, ananandr mitchell, nbc news chief foreign affairs,s, and r r sisimo "politico" chief litical columnist. >> rsrst,enator john mccain. lclce back to "meet the press." >> thank you davidid. thank you fo having mee bacack here again. >>alalys happypy to have you hehe. want to o stt t wi breaking news th morning.

the fronon story in thehe new y sometimes isis that formericice president ck cheney kept ngress in the da, his ders, to keep c coress in the dadarkbout a cia progogm.m. it's a program t that a a rector pineta has nowow shut down a iefed congress about it.t. what's your reactionon titit? >> a anot on the intelligencnce coittee. i don'n't kn w wt the details of this o t t vice president, i i think,k, shoddbviously be hrd fromomff allegations a a lvevel in hisis dirtiti. clearly,y, t r replicans did not sisign aetetr apparently that wawritten alleging this,s,o o i think it's f fnknklyoo early for me to acach any conclusisi.. >> it doesn't apappears s any linenes rere cssed in your dgment? >> i ionon'tnow, because, again, lolot this is anonymous soururceanand is is -- if i know shington, this is ththe bebeginng g a pretty involved and detatailedtoto, and i don't

have enough informatatn,n, b i think a a lot reres to come on this. s suld there be an investigigioion,o you think? >> d d't know if -- first ofof all, i would l le e tonow the facts of the case bebefo t the should be, q quo, , an vestigation. how long did thehe decectoof the cia a kn a abo this program, and when did he termrminatititand all of these things arare gog g -- are probably gogog g toe heavily didiscusd d the weeks eaead. speaking about ininveigigatns there's now word from "newsweek gazine" t today that the attttoryy general is gegeing closer t to investigati allegeged tourur during t the b administration. is is the reporting frfr daniel kliedman.n. for sources saying h he n now thinking about a appoiinina prosecutor to invevestatate e bush administrtratios s utal interrogogatioprprtices. would that be a goododdedea? >> no. fought against waterbobodiding and said watererarardi was tortrture. we passed the dedetaeeee tatment act t icich ohibited cruel and

humane treatment. i have spopoken t t forcefully as possible evererheheregainst what went t on a t tt we need -- it harms ourur imageoouch ououndhe world whenn photographs come out.. we all know that badad this s re do.. well know that the operaraveves who did it most likelyly we e under ordeders tdodoo. for us to contininue ts s d harm our r ime e thughout the world, i agree with the presidedent o the ununit s stas. itit's te e move forward and not go back. but wherere is s e e accountability?? >> well, the accountntabitity, obviously,y,s s pele's reputatationhaha been harmed veveryadly. the quesestions s we want america's image harmrmed me e drging this out further r and further? you u got -- what'ss going to e the positive resultt f fro a arg out and ventilating details what we already ew tooklala d d shld never have, and we are committed to mkiki suree

nener r haens again. i i do n e euse it. i'm just saying whatat's t effect onmmica's ime in thee world. i i dot t me to drag out my answer, but i did meetet wita a high ranking m membeofofl qaeda inin arison in iraq who saididis eatest recruiting toolol w t the pictures oabgraib. we d d't't wt to give the terrorists and the r ricical islac c tremists more tools and bullets totohohootgainst us and help t the r reciting in this ongoing struggle e we'rinin lele me turn to potitics you must h he e be shocked to see veveor sarah palin resign n as governor. > wasn't shocked. obviouslsl i i w a bit susurpsesed,ut i wasn't shocked. i understanandththatararah maade decicionon ere she can beost effective for alasas a andorthte country. i love and respect her a and h mily. i'm grateful that she e rereedo rurun thth m amamonfident she will be a a majojofafact in the national

enene d in alaska a as well. >> but youayay you werere rprprid a little bit. whwh >> well, because s she h n n called m me. we discusseded isisinc and i better understand the rereason for her decisision >hahat re they? >> well, how cououldhehe bt seserv hocould she most effectitilyly sesee e alka and the country, andd th was her decision.. >> but, senator, yououavave retataon of personal and professional touounenessnd stick-to-i-ititivess. you sought the highestst re e in the land, , esesidt of the ununitedtatas. you never quitit > don't think she quit.t. i think k e e chged -- >> she made a promisise v vots to serveveutut h term, didn't she? i don't know ifif there wasa, otote,romise. i i k knothat she will be an effectivive ayayern the national stage, and i will say y i ha never seen a s susininedersonal mily attacks that werere me e on sarah palin and heher falylyn my life. carl canon has a verer

ininresting piece about ththe media establishmhment d d e tacks that were made o on r,r, and i'm surere tt t th had some papact ethicic chge after ethics chargrge. hundreds of thousasandofof dlars worth of legal fees. but the factis she i iseery popular with our r replilica base. she will be a strong voioice. i chose her becacausshshe a rerermrmerbecause she beat an incumbent gogornrnorshe was a populalar reblblan of her own rtrty. she igniteteouour se. she did a great jojob m m running matete, enen uer the momo s susined personal attacks in ctainly recent amameric politics. y youave sustained personal rtrte, personal attack, politicacal atckckinvestigation. you have never resigigd d fr anytngng is it consistent with h your qualities ofof ldedersp to resign a an eltetepost like th?? >> s se.e.

>> it is? >> if you can n be -ththquestion how can you serve mosos efefctctivy? sah and todd and her familily made a d decioion at she can be mo e eective by stepping dowown, and she did.d. i spect that position ananththat decision, , and cacaot tell you thappreciation i have for r her. >> you think she's's quafifi to seseekighest office in the l ld? i inow she's qualified. she is q quififie >> sure. >> no doubt abouout it >> she has a a t theight ininincts. she hahaalall e right inincies. she was a mayor.r. she was governor. she unundetatandthe challenges that families s cece. she hahas a eaeabackground, and i i c condent that she will continue to o playasas say, an important role.. >>f f e seeks the presidencycy in 201012,ouou wld endorse her? i i tnk it's way too early for ththat kd d thing because she obviouslslhahas t made that decisisi y yetand traditionally, those of us s wharare e nominees

haveveaiaiteat least -- a long peodod otime before we got into that. we got a a lotf f od, strong, young, attraractiv a aiculate okespersons for our papay y an our principles. >> can you undererstanhohopeople would thinin it's a lile bit ststngnge. you vouched fofor heininront of ththe ununtr that she qualified for the highest posititionn n th landnd yet, you're not t prararedo endorse heher no >> i ieaean,eorge bush -- ronald rereag d didt endorse george herbert walker b bus unll the year o of e election. i me, , it's just way too earlr. i'm confident she e ululd ke a fine p presintnt the e esesti is what's the whole potiticascenario? >> doo you think she'll run? >> i don't know. i know she will play a m major role. i i owow s has the ability to ignite our parartyndnd t gaanize us and get us goining again n angigives a strong, positive message. >> one more ononhihis. your trustst a advor mike murphy wrote this week someththinvevery ininte he wtetes that governor sarah palin is the compmptete cll tran

wreck that kepeps on givingng. first, s sheasas aawful choice for last year's john m mccais s nnnninmate. an i ixpxpernced governor of a all state, she lacked d experience and brougug n notng to the ticket. itit was rategicallywfwful choice. knowing everything youou knonono would you u pi h hergain? >> a aololuty. in all dueue resctcto those who like to kind of exexame e th enaiai ann look backckward,d,he fafa i iswe were t three points aheadnn september 15thth,ndnd te ststk market crasheded and wentnt senen points downwn. sarah palin igniteteouour rty. we were e wiining,nd we could have won, but i'm m prd d ofhe mpmpai, and i'm proud of the people around me. i'm gratefef f forheir support. love them. i am proud to haveve hadheheonor bebeinthe nominee of the partyt of abrahah l linln and theodore roosevelt and ronanald rgaga and i willll r remaisoso >> is she e ahd d ofhe pack in tetermof leaders of this parar going foforwar

>> i ionon'tnow. in recentooll i saw, she shows mitt romney d huckabee very ghgh it's way t tooararly you might t mememb in 2007 my campgngnas dead. >>emememr well. and you cacameacack. let meme swih h ars and talk about the presidenenofof t unit s stes currently and that's baracacobobamand his performamanc lolookt t threcent poll numbers that came out, and it t show declining g ppppor his approvoval rininnow 58%. back in january it w was a6666 atat'sour assessment of how w is performing?g? > wl, first of all, his numberers arststl strong, so it's relative. second of all,l, t tnk americans dedetandably are becoming g veryry, ve c ccerned about the de, , ep political and economic debebt th w ware laying on future generations ofof americican werere cmitting generational efef stst lt week the estimate ofof the deficit wawas $1 t tllion juststoror t first nine months. $1.8 trillion.

atat by a factor of two. the hihighesininny time -- peace time in histsty.y. we are spendnding d d ending and spspenngng. o o ve months ago thought t we uld own chrysler and geneneral motors? who ththghght would own aig? o o ought we would own allll these e bankananinstitutions? it's t t m mosmassive movement from the free enterpririseysyste t theovernment in the historyry of this countrtry. the president says bebe patienen hohow chch me patience do you have?? > wel i ilso think it was inintesting. e president uses a very y effective rhetororicallolo says -- he sets up thth position of the ----ikike said, there are ththoswhwho id we wantnt t to nothing. who wawas atat we w wantetotoave a stimulus package. we wanteteonone at would help small business. thgegerator of jobs in this s country thatatououldut the rporate tax from 35 toto 2anand lplp sll businesses buy eqpment and hire people e d d would d ha i immiate shshoveleaea projects, and we

predicted that mosost ofhehe imimul package that was passss through the senatete ia a paisan fafashn would not have any r rl short-t-rmrm eect, so, guess atatwe're finding out onlyly 1 ofof the mney has been spent. a lot of it has been o on ridiculous projectcts. so i s say with respect, we republblics s haa positivive alternativive,hihichas over 00 billion llars. we h h a an ternative budget. had an alternative toto t omnibus spendidi b bil >> 40% of ththe stulul package clclud tax cuts. >> it includuded t c cs, but a loof them are in the wroro direction. y y nomake sure we focused o o small bubusissss, d, also, on rprporions which now have the e highest tatararateof any -- of any y cotrtry the world. > he's what his top economim adser said this weekek the new yoyo t tim". people knonow th p pblems of th s serusness cannot be

turned around in six mononths ninineonths. "o"o o of e president's rerengs and s his extraordininary ndnd the presididt t habeen honest with ththe ereric people about the enormity of ththe chlelee and the amount o otitimet will take to turn things arounun ththen t p psident yesterday in his radio adaddressasa this recovery a a h hasorked as intended. is h hleleveng with the american people? >> well, i'm sure ththe esesidt d doi everything that he can n to try to helplp ts s ecomy. >>ut is he leveling? is he beining raraig? > wl,l, his either not lelili now or he wasn't levelilingt t thtime of the paagage the stimulus package e because ththeyaiaid e maximum ununplploynt would be at 8%. that's w whaththeyold us. it's 9.5%, g gngng t10%. they said most o oththesprojects were shovel-l-rey,y, a the money wowould o o very quickly. we know now that h hasotot haened, and even that 1010isis a

little deceiving becauauset t haha't't bn used. what they promomis u us uld be thresult of the stimulus i in a ort-term and has turneneouout not to be trueue. i'm not saying it's s t t veveli, but it's certainly n n factually y corrt t cause they said unemployment woululbebe a maxiximum 8 8and probably ososero 7%. >> could youou spoport second imulus plan if it comes s down?? >> i think that would d t the biesest stake we could ever keke why don't we focususn n tacuts, why don't weut fus on sllll businesseses? why don't we instete o of ying we're e gointotoncrease taxes to pay fofoheheal care reform, why don'n't s saylook, let's ease ththisururdeon the small businesses particularly,y, and keep goioing b bacto that. who generates jobsbs in erera? not general momorsrs. not chryryerer. people that t geneteteobs in erica are small businene people who all ovever,r, a overy hohotown of phoenix, arizozona are e shutngnghe storefront enenterises of theirs, and, , t, general motors is too o g g to fafailnd so is aig, but theyey' tosmall to save? therere'sosomeing wrong with thaticicre, and that's why thehe amamican people are unhappppy.

>> you mentioned healtlth ca rermrm this is whwh t theresident said ck in march. said, this isrirical to t overall financial healththf the cocountr listen. >>f we want to create jojo a and rebuild our ececonomananget our fefedel l buet under control, then we hahave tadadess the crusushingososof health care th y yr. >> dyoyoagree? > igrgreehat we need to reform healtlth ca a a we need to make ititfffforble and avaiailae,e, b we are losing sight of the fact ththat t highest qualaly y heth care in ththworld is in the uniteded statates oamamica. that must bebe pseserv. so theheeyey, at we should be focussing on, is a affdadabity and availabilility f a a americanan i i don'ththk that these propososs s ardoing that. i was atm.d. andersonn i houston. ople -- senator mcconnelell an sesenar -- people fromll over the couryry from allver the world werere the.. the best, hihight t quity health rere iin america. it'sheheost that's the prlem.

>> are youou ppapareto support what thehe admisisation proposes on health care? >> well, t the leseswas by cbo ---- e congressioiol l buet fifi aftersasayi we're a trillion dollarar short andndnl covering onon-t-thi of thepepele who areininsud, now abbtt half of them are iiurured uer this planan. look, we got to gigiveeoeoplthe abilitittoto gacross state lines totoet the health insurancnce their choice we've got to h hav---- wre in agreemenent p prention, on wewellssss, trying to have tctce-based health care. a whe e t of a aasas we're in agagreent on. hehehohoulbe sitting down across the table e notrtryi to do what they did with the ststimusus package, with the e budg, , d with allll t o oths, and that is ck off a couple republblanans. let's sit down andndavave me real conversations, soso r rea negogotiatnsnsather than the chchare that we've been goinin through.h. >> theheououseays -- house democrats say y n neeto raise taxes. tax surcharge in order t to pa fofoitit. does that killll ts s efrt?

> don't know if it killlls e effort, , but i i k kil o our economy. i don't think there's s any rationale e for isisg taxes on ybybodat this particular timim and in the economimic diicicties atat wre in. look, malplpracte e form is another thing that's b bn n tan ofthe table. we nd d have that as well. at could save us tens s billions of dollars a yeyear becaususef f thprpracce of fensive medicinenehahat doctoto have too engnge e in >> a couple e of feiei policy nonote look at the stririkingtatastic out of afghahaststaneleased this ek. the e mbmberf roadside bomb inindedent these are the ones that were succccesulul tt hurt ororilillepeople back in june of 202007jujunef 2009. t to . that's gototo o trble you. it troubled me enormomous, , but t a allnew that once we we i intareas that have been controlled by the talibaban, particularlyly in lmlm province and the e ututh,asualties would up.

we tooook teterrle blow this we with ten british soldieiers killed in one daday. look, thisis isoing toto long and hard and tough, and i i ntt to work k thth the prididt, but we've got to rememeerer what rked in iq,q, and that is i requires adtition roops, if necessssy.y. listen to our military leads.s. i saw on thehe fntnt pe of "the stst this rrng, generalal mcchrystalaays we need more trpsps. let's tell t t a amecan people how ugugit is for us, tell them what's at stake, , d d i nt to work wiwith t p psident and mamakeure we win this thing,g,ut lelet's t t y to go back to the rumsfeld era o of trngngo just gout, kill people, leaveveanand try to get outut of erer >> i iththathe risk of this administrationon n?? that's the risk. at's the risk. >> you think we needed mor troops? >> i know ththate e shld listen general mcchrystal anand leaders on t g grod who, cocoing to news reports, n not my inforortitionsay we are going to nd d ditional troops in ororr to really secure..

we talk about economicic, political, milititary. fit you've got to providida a cure environment. we prorod d th time after time. >>n n tes of iran, the president sasays bseseember they abandoned d e e prram, get into negogotiioionsr face consequences. at does this administrtratn n have to do nowowo o gethem to ababdon a nuclear program?m? >> loooo t thiis one of the tougughe c chaenges we face. again,n, we want t to wrk wthth the presididen meaningful sanctctnsns nd to be imposed, b butlslso need to tell the people ofof in n wee struggling for a free e demoacac a an en society and electionsns that are f fair. we are with h m morly. i'm not t talkg g out sending arar.. i think the sesenonolevent was e deathn n t streetethat was broadcast all around the world. at will fundamentally y anange the future o of ir b bause she was the symbmbolf f anppressive d d reessive regime, and i think the wiwinds c cnge will even blow through iriran.. now, whetherer idodoesuickly or t is hard to say. we dididn'prpredt the collapse

of the b berliwawa, but it ppened, and i believe e atat i iran s sometngngs afoot that n'n't stopped. before you go, are you u prepeparedo o pport sonja sodomayor? i won't see the heariring obviously. the e ara very critical part.. obviously, she's a g great americicanucucce story, and we all respect and adadmirehaha i just likike s seehe hearings and watch vevery csese starting monday. >> all right. setotomccain, thank you. >> thanks s r r hang me back on. > up next, the other s sidofof the debate, democrcraticenenor chuck k scmemer ins us. plplusour political roundtablel. with karenuugh andogog stinemanan. only on "meet the e esess. (r. kruger) clearly it's tough timim in our economy rigight n.. price vovolalilityas put strains s e eve the strongesest of budgets. the e econy y eds energy to stngngth and grow, d continued investment ininnergy resources over t t l lonterm. exxonmobil is inveveining at record levels..

over the next t foureaea, we're looking atat sndndin mo than $100 billlln n doars in new eneneyy related projects. wewe iesest r the longngererm so we're able toto hpp support the growththhahat we know w e e ecomy needs. to build a new genetion of airplanes to connect the world. airplanes that flyly caner and farther on ls fu and make n nonop tvel possible to moreces. announcer: around the globe the peoplelef f bong are wowoining gether-- toto bngngs together. that's w we're here.

nator chuck schumer and d the view from the e othesisi of the aislafafthis brief cocommercial break. what i..? that t guidance yoget om fidelity.

thksks stay on the e line whatater youdestination, fidelity hashehe pple, guanance, d investments to help you findouour way.

we're ck. joined now by senator chuck summer new york. welce back to "meet the press." this white house is on the defensive abt the stimulus plan and the economy. over the crse of the summer vice president bidenas been outalking about the projections thnd now. they said with the stilus plan they would keep unemoyment to 8%.

here he s on the pam back june. >> this package wasold on the premisthat it would, in fact, keep unemployment at 8%. 's exceeded that with the stimulus plan. >> no, no, n it wasn't ld on that. it wasold on it would create -- it said- what happened was it would save or create jobs. it's doing that. it iing that. everyone guessed wrong at the time the estimate was made aut what the sta of the economy was,the moment this was passed. >> everydy guessed wrong. this is what hsaid bk on ly 5th at abc. the truth we and everyone else misread the economy. diyou? >> you had a wle new world. i hanever seen anything like this experience. i think none of us have. finaial markets frozen. just think, back in deceer and january, most people said thers 25%, 50% chance we're going to be in the great deprsion, and the good thing that the president is doing is two-fold. one, he has strong medicin against it. send, he has a long-term time horizo

he is not going to be boced around by what happensoday o export numrs, which were good or what happens on csumer confidence, icwas bad. and they keep adjusting. so i think that, yes, e economy is vy, very important. probably number one t american people, but the president has their nfidence. he is doing a good job, and it's going to work well. >> but i asked you if you misread this. you are the senator fr new york. you have your fingern the pulse the financial center of this country. is is a list of economists and others who said that unemployment would bworse than the administration antipated. do you agree thaeveryone got it wrong, or did t whiteouse get it wrong >> wel bottom line is i think the estitewere all over the place, and everyone said it's very hard to chart this out, becaus again, we were in uncharred waters. >> the were certainly people who said unempyment would get worse, you need a much bigge stimulus, they havgot the wrong dicine. >> there werma, mostly many on the republican side and elsewhere,ho said we need a smaller stimulus, and we don't ed thikind of thing.

the president i mean, i rememberarry somers and others yi we're trying to get the number rightbut erring on the side ohaving it a little higher because the downsidis significant. >> so you put yourselfn their lot? you misread it as well as ey d? >> i wldn't characterize them or me asisreading. you give the best estimate you can. i didn't make a projecti as to what the numr would be. we kneit was bad. we need we needed seris medine. that's what we are dog. >> let's talk about the stimulus. in nework state this is what e gao, government acting office, by the nework post. new yo has spent only about 22% of the federal stimulus set aside for the state, and the gao report revealed that mosof the money is being used just to governments afatrather than to cree jobs. this is apparently happening all over the country. is that was the stimulus was designed tdo, to plug holes in government fincing at a state level? >> it was designed tdo many things. immediately, it had et some money tohe economy. you remember -- you can quote

all those economts -- the danger of going into what economistsalled a deflationary spir, where prices go down, more jobs are lost, prices go down further, was a nighe beuse once you get into a deflationary spiral, no economist knowsow to get out. you had to avoid that at all co. getting ney quickly into the economy, which is wh the the first stage.ending did was now we're in the secd phase. money is still continug tgo to the government. >> but is it too slow? look at the numbers out of new york. >> this isot a four-month plan or two-month plan. when you have such an awful situation, t worst economy th we've had in december, the president is hamstruecause e ual tools of getting out of a recession was lowering interest rates but interest tes were already at 1 you need a strong long-tm plan that has a number of stages. now yore going to see the send part of the stimulus, whicis t job reuation creation part really kick in. >> so you're not dipointed with

at's hppening at t ste level? >> i am not. i'm beginning to seerojects in upstate new york, new york ci, the new york city suburbs begin to get going. i see thpeople working. a t of construction going on that i didn't see thremonths ago, and that money is going to start coursing into e veins of the economy. >> more broadly on the eno, back in april the presidt sound fairly optimistic. this is what he id. >> there's no ubt that times arstill tough. by nans are we out of the woods just yet. but from where we std, for the very first time, we're beginnin to see glimmers hope. >> let's look at the numbers. first six weeks in office. unemployment up approximat2%. job losses, 3.4 miion, and the deficit is up 50%. are those glimmers of hope? >> no, but there are glimmers of hope. th's the bad news, and there's lots of bad ne. let me just say, looathere weere january 20th when the president got into office and today. there are some goothings the financial systemardly recovered, but is not fren.

no longer hear day after day reports fr small businesses, middle size businees, they can'get money anywhere and they're going under. that cated auge problem, created last fall and last summer. not dealt wi. that has ramifications on in this econo. expos are up. parts of mufacturing is up. consumer snding, which was going down, now flat. th is one of theood things about barack obama, onef the many good things about o president, he has a long term rsctive, and he has an internal gyroscope. he is not going to get jred by one month numberr one month's polling data. he has his eye focus on th goal. the ecomy will be better, gradually, but certainly, and is going to get there, and i think, by the way, i woulday -- maybe i'misreading it, but i don'think so -- the american people have confidence in e president getting out of this mess.

>> let's tk about health care. his signature achiement that he wants domestically, wilhe get health care reform, a massivoverhaul? >> we dot expe it to be signed into law then, but we expect the house and sene to haveassed bills, yes. >> do you thk 's going to ppen? >> i do. >> the b claim he is making is that it' fit neutral. it not going to add to the debt. a trlion dollar program. e big question is how is it going to be paid for? a couple of optns out there, and one iso oset the price the $300 blion and thaw tax and some of t benefits. could you support that? >> i think wt we've learned ov the last week on both sides of the aisle, peop dnot want tax the benefits. democrats and repuicans and given what the house has done, given a majorityf demoats are agait taxing fits, i dot think that's going to happen. >> do you think a tax suharge of house democrats are goingo propose on the wlthiest americans? that t way to make up $500

billio >> let me say a couple of thin. first, the number one ing we ha to do to pay for this trillion dollarss cut costs, and e president has wisely said t mority of this package -- a signifint majority is going to be from cutting costs. the system is wastef and inefficient. number one. number two, we will haveo find revenu to pay for the rest. the ginninof this week everyoneaid, ll, weaw when we got specifics on the tax be fates nefitshat people weren't going for it. democrats and republicans. kerepublicans were negotiating withold chrman baucus forget . now we're oking at other thgs. he's the good news, david. wednesday, thursday the finance committee, which is in crge of ying the money, weet. wednesday, democrats. thursday, democrs and republicans. and laid outany different options. the e a whole lot of options. we emerged from th meeting on both sides of the aisle thinki this is doab. i belie that the chairman's

goal to have a plan at pays for it set by thend of this week wl happen. now,o t into the specifics -- know you asked me about a specific. obviously, the surcharge has a benefit. meetshe president's goal of not taxing anybody bow $2,000, but i think to negotiate in public when the are many different oions is not going to be very hpful, so i'm not going to do that. >> a couple of quick points, judge sodomayor, will she be approved >> i believehel be approved and there's a goohance for her to get more votes than judge roberts go which was 78. she has wod people. people that meet her are impressed. not just with her story, but she's smart, but also prtical. she's down to eah, and she makes a great impression the very impression shs made on 8 senators, she's going to ma the millions of americans as they watch the heangs, she is goingo beroved by a large rgin. >> you heardenator mccain opsed to the idea of an inveigatiointo the alleged torture during the bush administration. where do you come do? >> i general bieve that with the president and john mccain is

lookinforward not backwards, but when there are viole, you catrush them under the rug. i think that the attorney general to look for egregious violations, which is what he is doing now, is the righthing to >> is sarah palin, theute of threpublican party? >> guess i shouldn't judge and let them fight among themselve >> what you think? you think she's qualified to be president? >> i think the americapeople saw her and they saw problems in terms of preparaon and knowledge things, but, you ow, three and a half years away is a long te away, so i'm not -- >> y're hedging your bets, but you are no holdin t on the no that you are very closely aligned. here it is from "field and stream" the political odd couple. there th are. senatoschumer and governor palin, both heron "field and stam you cannotalk away from how closely tied you two are. >> god bless america. >> senator schume thank you very much. up next, our political roundtable ways inn all the week's ns. after thisis brief s stion brea.

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we're back with our roundtable, democric strategist bob shrum, rmer counter president bush, karen hughes, andrea mitchell of nbc news and roger simon of "the polico." welcome all. karen is in from austin,exas. we appreciate havi you here. ll, a lot to talk about. roger simon, i want to srt with sarah pal. thought senator mccain was rather striking his comments today. the one hand, he said he s surprised that shetepped down. hould he not be given his record as a politian, as a senator, as a leader? is this the same pern he chose to be on his ticket? >> i think iis the same person. if the republicans werchoosing a nominetoday, i believe they would choose sarah palin. the publican party has collapsed like a star going va to its dsest core of conservative voter sarah palin speaks to that cor

now, the mandarins, e elites don'like her. she's noof their ilk. she is theku at their garden party. they belve, as some in the media believe, that the highest formf political skill and authencity today is to flawlessly read a spch from a leprompter that somebodylse has written for you. that's not sarah pal. look, she's not going to bt barackbama, but all she has to do is beat tim pawlenty, bobby jindel, huckabee, mitt rney. are you sayinghe couldn't beat mitt romney? >> im strongly for her. i endorse her for the repuican nomination in 20. i think she got a real problem with the republicans. they have a survival instinct, and she said yesrday tt she was maybe ing to campaign for consvave democrats. that's because a l of republicandon't want hero campaign for tm. that party ultimatel when you saw it wh john mccain, you saw

it with bob dole, th nominate -- they ke the next person in line. i think that's probably mi romney. agree with you. she's got a big baseand i think she might n the nomination. i hope she does. senator mccain just said he agrees with r. he thinks it helps her snding. that's in the best intt of he gng forward. it's okay to resn. >> i think senator mccain in a difficult position. chose her as his nominee. he wants to support her and her family. i was surpsed. i was puzzled. she ught that office. i remember when worked for govern bush, and he decided run for lection as governor of texas. even wn he was being mentioned as presidential candidate, he felt it was important to have that seal of approval,hat re-election fr the voters. heas very honest with them and sa i don't know whether i will or won't run for preside. i want you to make that as a factor in your decision. i was surprised d someat puzzled. i think the weeks and nths aheaare going to be very critical for sarah palin. she's got loof charm. i like her she's feisty. she'a maverick. there's a fine line betwn maverick a quirky, and so i k she has to be very caref

at the next steps she takes are very thoughtful and that she really thinks them throu beforehe takes them. andrea, before we hear from you,e have to see -- this is andrea mitchell, live on the scene in atlta. thesare some of the still photos in your waders. most peopldon't know that you actually travel with fhing gear in your purse on signment. look at this. this was the orchestration on this small fisng village of gornor palin to speak her ace and look at this media scrum there. here is a question that you answer abo her fure. watch. >> can you imagine yourself running for president? >> i don't know what future holds. can't predict what the nexfish run is going to look like, much less what's going happen in a couple of years. but my focus is on my state, still, and it always will be, and my family and what is best

for them. what is best for theis to not run for re-election and to aid a lame-duck, wful session in a final year ooffice. is that -- i mean, this is the question posed to senator mccai which is sirking from those fhts the way you demonstrate leadership in a publican party? >> think that is her big flaw right now, becausevein alaska, en in her hometown ere people are enormously supportive of her, where people ve her, they said we're really disappointed becausehe quit so, that quitter label ds attach to her. e other problem is, look, she's really war she s acting, i think, on behalf o hefamily, which were hurting andhe neede do something about that. she was ry deeply unhappy. e's got enormous charm, and she's feisty. she attractive. lord knows she is attracte. she has to have coherent world view to be the republican was so raming in thatriday sh

stement and didn't really fix in her interviews with my of us is that she doesn -- e's not deep ly re. she hasn't thought throu a lot of these this, and you have to that as a national candidate. >> can a leader of t republican parhart a new urse without real new ids and a new diction for the party? in oer words, does the republic partyo get back to power need a fundamental overhaul in terms of core position? >> i think, obviously, any time a party is out of powe there's a lot of talabout e crisis in the pty and new leaders and new voices will emerge, but think the ne -- as we move to the 2010 elections, asmove 22 that the leaders who emerge will have thave a vision. it will ve to be an optimistic visi, and i think they have to make the case th ours is an inviting party, a welcoming party,t we want people to join us, that we belve that our philosophy of educating children, of pviding health care in a ally sound way, of putting money back into people's pockets rather than this massive build-upf debt and spending th we're seeing under the oba administration will have to makthe case that our policies are, in fac the best policies to take this country

forward, ande have still a cotry that is largely center right and tat is i cliented to want to hear fr us. i think the imrtant thing is th whave an optimistic and visionary messenger. >> i was going tsay, which i never do, that i largely agree with you until youot to that part about the country's large centered right. >> i said something wrong. >> no. you sa the republican party needed a positive vion. i think that'she real problem rit now. it is coming across as thearty of no. look obama fails, if the stimulus fai, if the economy goes badl republicans wld nefit anyway. theyon't have to get out there and cheerlead for fail which is what eye doing right now, and if we see signs ofecovery next year, in 2010 or 12 are what actlly matter. i ink republicans will be punished badly being sore lose and for looking almost ke they were rooting for obama to fail, which means the economy -- >> i disree with that, david. i ink what we're seeing right now is that esident obama's policies, unfortunately, are failing, and we're very coned about that.

we've moved from -- >> karen,hat' a littleike saying why didn't we ar lynn fa the day after d-day? we're only at the beginning this process. if we're looking at obama's general performance, first of l, look at the job approval numbers out of ohio. politically sensitive ohio. approval in february7%. nowt 49%. the political anfinancial realies are that they have not met expectations that th set out for the imulus plan. the president talked about glimmers of hope. we see athing but over the first six months. as a pitical matter and a fincial matter, as senator mccain said, he is notevelin now or he wasn't levelinthen. something is not addg up. >> iis not adding up. e rock star has come to an intermission her barack obama now os the economy. it's his. the americ people are holding him responsible. we passed a $780 blion economic recovy bill in february, and you just poind out, snce then we've lost 3.4 million jo

we have nospt all the recoverymoney, but we have spen billions and billions of it and people are wonding where are the jobs? barack obama says we've gotw years. this is a two-yearlan. chuck schumer id we've got two years. they don't he two years. the congressional elections are in november of 2010. they've got to show progress before then. >> i think a big test will b whether they at least can get me agrment on health care before the recess on the house side. e senate is going to be more difficult. that is a huge problemand now we've got a proposal from the hoe demoats and charlie rangel for an inco tax -- a surt. first of l, this is goi to be very heart-felt in the senate. en among lou dobbs democrats in the house it wille a tough sell. plus, the obama administration has scored this with the congressional buet office, and theye figured out that rather than just -- it doesraise $500 billn towas the health care costs, t cost of insuri the

uninsuring,ut afterten years those numbers blockharply. in the outears unless there are majosavings from health care reform, you know,ut there, you are goi to have a huge balloon of expenditures i ten years ou and that is going to be a big debate. th big lesson from thiss the failure of health care reform in what congress has to say. coress is having a say. unfortunately, it's in sever different diren on how you y r it and whether there will be a publiclan. >> i'm fascinad by this. in the political and media css we want e instant gratificatio. weave a story about doom's day coming every other d. by the tim-- when that deadline comes, therwi be a bill. they will come to an agreement i believe that bill will pass, and i think he will si it. we ought to be ver very careful. . he said by october i think we have to be very, very careful about ese kinds of judgments.

like t job loss. we were losing 700,0 jobs a nth in january. we're w sing half that number. obvisly, it's going to take ti to turn this around. we have 2,000 projects underway. 20,000 aroved. the ark of the stimus is only beginning to jthe economy. the same thing is gointo happen wh health care. we'lget it out there. by the waythe cost savings the cea calculates 1.5year it terms of lowering medical inflation and will rse gdp and lower the defit. >>the republicans, why shouldn't the be more patience? why shouldn't the reblicans o spena lot of time spending a lot of government money an under whose watch, the enomy took the turn that it did? why shouldn't there be more patience from the republican aie? >> this was sold to e american people aan immediate fix, and i thk bob is now trying -- let me quote larry somers. you'll see effect immediately. christa roamer, we'll start adding jobs, rather than ling them. house majority lr hoyer, there wi be an immediate jolt. this will begin creatingobs immediately. instead, wve seen a loss of

2.6 million jobs. >> there has been a cline in the rate of unemployment. that the immediate fix. us, you have seen a loosening up of credit. we were on the point of disaer. i think they can aurately argue thathey have avoided catarophe, but -- >> i would argue that was avoided last fal wh president bush took the politally unpopular step of the rescue -- >> can i agree with you? i wod say that what george bush and gordon brown didn itain to save t world bankg system probably prevented an overall finanal collapse, but in january ere headed into a tentially very deep recession or a deeper an deeper recessio if not a depression. and wh the administration did has cut the rate of job loss, and i thk, younow, we ought to lk at where it's going to be next september. in next september people tnk things are recering, the repuican party will pay a fty price for its attitude. >> the president was warned that

too ch of the stimulus bill would not still lavsh, that it would nolead to jobs that, it was typical pork barrel stuff that the cgress nted. we chose noto fight with congss. now, in fairness, heas trying torevent a world economic collapse, t taking this huge bill at had a lot of stuff that wasn't shovel-ready, he risked paying therice that he is paying for now. that the jobs aren't coming. >> we've gone from t euphoria of yes we can to the dp worry of can we afrdhis. this is a massi bill -- >> reagan wen through thisn 1981, and,in fact, his approval rating, by t way, at this time was exactly t sames obama's is today. >>nd unemploymentwent to 11% in 1982 >> republicans stayed with it. despite e difficulties in the midterm election, they got to 1983. the recovery ce. so did morning in americand so did the confmation of the reagan era.

the real chaenge for democrats, are they going to stick with the president? are they going to gewobblynd afraid, because they don't hang tether, they'll hang separate. >> i wanto show some of the pictures. the president s the world stage this week while the deba was intensifying traveling in russia and then to ghana. the pictur from ana are striking just from over the weekend. he visited a slave pn with hifamily. an emotional tour there. the response huge from the people of ghana to mess first african-amican president. erms of image abroad, kare hughes, as a fmer counselor to e president and as someone who was the headf public diplomacy at the state department as well. now we hear from the aorney geral that he is leaning toward, accoing to "newsweek" leaningtoward putting an inpenden prosecutor in charge of investigatinglleged tture during the bush administration. do you agree with that ia? >> i think it's tentially very harmful because everywhere i traveled, as he tried to reach out to half of our country around the rld, and i applaud president obama f trying to reach ut. that exactly what president bushsked me to do for two and a half years as the

undersecretary ostate r public diplomacy at some point it'sore a matter -- it's less a matter of are y popular or your oueach as to are effective. let's look at at happened this week. it was a great picture. absolutely iafrica. a very powerful mome for the first african-americanpresident to go to the continent of africa. some of ththings that presidt obama said there sounded like echos of presen bush, callinfor more tranarency and for leaders of the continent to invest this their people, invest in education and heth. let's look at the relts of th trip in russia. nice words were exchanged, m ashey were when president putin and president bush back in their first meing, and, yet, byhe endf the week the presidt of russia was basically warning our amic presidenthat there will be no cuts in weapons if he doesn't abandon the missile defense system. the g8 summit they kickedhe can down the road. they said we'll deal with clime change and the problem of a nuclear iran, and the u.n -- >> is he doing anything right? >> i want to stick on they are i

ca holder position. should there be accountabity for leged torture your honor the bush adminisation? >> as i read whaholder is thinking about doing, it's - well, poting someone to investigate ople who acted outside of the guidelines set by the justice department lawyers i think if that is actua wh'some to light, he doesn't have much choice b to do that cause what's been defended is the proposition that inside thosguidelines we're not going to go after peop. >> i want to button this uth both of you on one topic, a think a key point from this discuson, is how will we know whether the president vulnerablehis overall agenda in terms of going intohis midterm race? roger, i'll start with you. quickly from both of you. >> how will we know ife is vulnerab? >> or succeeding. >> wll see his poll numbers for one. we'll see how the party does. he's -- this i--e's just comingack from a trip. just for a secd. i think makes a point. th is the first trip he de that wasn't triumpha, that the americaneople saw pictures of him in ghana.

they were very warm and emotional and good, but also people were saying tho themselves, yokn, he has a health care plan he wants to wrap up in august, and ihe in ghana in mid-july. think also going to be thrown way off track this -- he esn't want the truth commission because it's going to throw everythinglse. >> i'mlat out of time. wee going to have to leave it there. andrea, i'm soy. thanks very much. we'll be right bac we knowhy we're here. to stand behind all whserve. ♪ to deliver the technologies.... vital to frereedo. ♪ to hp rry hope to thosen n ne. ♪ around thehe globe, the people of boeing..

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