welcome back to "andrea mitchell reports." and this story developing now. the white house has just disclosed camille johnston, the communications director for first lady michelle obama, has just disclosed that michelle obama's father was one with of the people buried in that cemetery outside of chicago. we're talking about frazier robinson iii. he was a pump operator. he died when the first lady was very young and he was buried in burr oaks cemetery. with me now is mark whitaker. this is such a compelling story out of chicago. we saw the emmett till family and the emotion over that and we don't even know how many graves were moved by these cemetery operators who were apparently trying to make money by taking people out of their graves and reselling the plots. it must be agony for the families.

>> this was a very disturbing story to begin with. this adds another dimension. we have to find out. we have assumed, right now, that the motives were purely monetary. was there perhaps a political motive now? if michelle obama's father was there? we don't know. there's a lot more investigation, but i think this takes a story that was -- had become a national story just because it was so gruesome, to another level. >> of course, we do not know that frazier robinson iii, michelle obama's father, that his remains may have been moved. we do not know that, we just know that he was buried this. but, obviously, now, the white house and the first family have a cause of concern and certainly inquiry to find out what his status is. kelly o'donnell joining us now from the senate. talking now about sonia sotomayor and the hearings so far. as you know better than anyone, the senators are all in their policy lunches right now, the tuesday luncheons, so they will be back. the hearings will resume at 2:00. but what they are doing now is

laying out their political points. these are the lines of division where you've got the portrait of sonia sotomayor as a judge who follows precedent, who in 17 years has rarely been overturned, coming from patrick leahy and the majority. and on the other side, they're portraying her as an activist, who would judge based on her emotions, her prejudices, her ethnicity. these are very difficult portraits to try to reconcile. >> that is the road map, as you've outlined it, andrea. and the benefit of the lunch break is that i've been able to be in touch with some of the people who have been the inside the sonia sotomayor camp. people who have been working with her through this process. and their early assessments after just one-half of one day of questioning is that they fully expected that republicans would, quote, try to go for blood in their words. and they believe that they have not landed a glove on her. again, the assessment of people close to the judge. part of what they have said is

that there has been sort of a political game playing going on. i mean that in the best sense of the word, where democrats have been able to try to address certain issues, for example, patrick leahy, the chairman, being able to bring up the wise latina comment first in order to buffer that from just sessions, for when he began his remarks. sources i've been talking to say one of the things that really strikes them is that republicans have, during this whole kind of rollup to today's events have been talking about the time they needed to go over her vast history of cases. and yet for jeff sessions, the republican of alabama who's the ranking member, he spoke about things that were not a part of her judicial rulings, her cases. spent a lot of his 30 minutes on that. that was something notable to people around the judge. they also say there's been a way they've worked in teams, both parties trying to back up other senators if points were not fully vetted, if they were not

clearly made to try to get all of those points in. for example, if diane fine feinn needed help, to make sure that key issues, especially from the democratic point of view, that they were put out there and of course the flip side, the more critical things for the republican side. now, herb kohl of wisconsin, longtime senator, but less well known nationally. he was the one that was tasked with introducing the idea of roe versus wade and the issue of is there a right to privacy. so there have been different roles that members of both parties have been playing. of course, the judge herself has been practicing. she has been doing so in these recent days as the eisenhower executive office building, the eeob right next to the white house where they set up a scene where she could, in effect, role play. the one difference, i'm told, is that with that broken ankle, the discomfort she's feeling, when she was doing her practice rounds, she was able to have her

leg elevated on a table. not able to do that in this setting today and one wonders if that's causing her any discomfort. but that's part of the inside the team reaction right here at this first lunch break. they're seeing it as going well for the judge and laying out different roles for members of both parties. andrea? >> kelly o'donnell up there in the russell rotunda. mark whitaker, do you think she did handle the wise latina comment. pat leahy gave her a softball in having rephrased her comment. it was then brought back to her by jeff sessions the way she actually said it. she said she was trying to be inspirational to latina women and she didn't intend to indicate she would do anything from the bench that was not just the facts. >> unfortunately, she chose her words poorly. i think most people who are sympathetic to her feel that way

and i think ultimately she had to admit that when she said it was bad and she was just trying to play on a comment sandra day o'connor had made earlier. i don't think it was an accident that senator leahy also started by ask iing her for her to talk about her experience as a trial judge. >> let's go directly to florida, pensacola, additional arrests in that horrible murder case. >> last thursday, july 9th, a tragedy occurred in escambia, county, with the murder of byrd and melanie billings. where we as a society, and specifically escambia county, witnessed the worse in man. cruelty and indecency. but in the last five days, as

the sheriff of escambia county, i have had the honor as the sheriff of this fine organization to witness the best in man. compassion, kindness, integrity, and professionalism. last thursday after this tragedy, we asked melanie and her husband and members of her family to come to the escambia county sheriff's office one day of this tragedy. and i'm sure you may recall standing in the lobby of the escambia county sheriff's office, while you felt very helpless at that moment, you asked me if there was anything i could do for you. and your response back to me was, sheriff, find the people who did this. it is my honor today to tell you, ashley, and your family, we have found them and they are in custody. >> we will be passing out to the

press the following package, seven individuals are currently in custody related to the murders of byrd and melanie billings. you will note one photograph is absent. the reason for this is, this individual is a 16-year-old juvenile. and the last thing i want to do before i turn it over to mr. edens is to give credit where credit is due. if you have a point in your life where you have a moment that you can stand and serve with people of greatness, you are truly blessed. i had that opportunity during my military career on more than one occasion and i can tell you in the last five days, i have stood in the presence of greatness at the escambia county sheriff's office and i would be remiss if not recognizing personally the men and women that in five days have brought this case to its conclusion. and i would ask that you direct your attention to this side of

the room. commanding our investigative unit is captain bruce wood. our case manager was sergeant rusty horde. sergeant buddy kneesmith. investigator tom watts. investigator tim hardy. investigator chris baggot. investigator bobby guy. investigator zack ward. investigator lee thighry. investigator tamara barber. also, our crime scene unit and their work in this case. i also must recognize our intelligence analysts who worked around the clock with our investigators, miss brianna hammond. initially, we had close coordination with mr. eden's office and all the attorney there is, the florida department of law enforcement, and specifically members of the federal bureau of investigation headed by special agent stewart, members of the alcohol, tobacco,

and firearms, special agent beech, and the department of drug enforcement with special agent jacobus. at that time, i will conclude my remarks for your questions and turn the podium over to mr. bill edens. >> as you know, i'm state attorney in this area and in a major investigation such as this, it is important that law enforcement and the district attorney or state attorney's office work closely together. in this case, that occurred and i would like to personally thank the sheriff and the members of his team who worked with my office. we had several people in my office that personally came out to the sheriff's office and worked and i can assure you that the second thing that's unusual in some ways about this is the vast number of resources that the sheriff allocated to this situation. you saw and you've heard him list some of them. in addition to that, those

resources were very effective because they did really work around the clock. they didn't quit and i think that is a feature of this investigation that is unusual in some regards. it certainly is very appropriate to honor those people. again, in closing, i would just like to say that i am -- i share the sheriff's sorrow as this community does to this family and am hopeful that the matter is concluded now and hopefully they will be able to move forward, although i realize how difficult that must be. >> at this time, we'll take your committe questions. >> can you talk about the connection these suspects had with the family? people want to know why that family was targeted. >> again, we have a small amount of business ties, some

friendships, but no direct ties that we can, at this time, confirm before the members here that are charged with this crime and the billings family. >> were they working on the property? >> there were occasions where mr. go mr. gonzalez sr. had a pressure washing business and mr. wayne coldiron may have been at the property. but where you would think to look far long-term relationship where property could be under surveillance for those wanting to come and do harm, we have yet to confirm that. >> sheriff, you said just a moment ago that we hope this matter is concluded. do you feel this matter is concluded, or is there another layer now to look at now that you have the people who were on the property? >> there are some loops that need to be closed, some follow-on investigations. we have at least one individual that we are specifically looking for at this time, or at, i should say, excuse me, not for.

and there may be others. but at this time, we only have one identified. >> what's the reason that federal investigators might be involved? i know you have said they have been, is there a reason beyond the current seven, or is there something else they are involved with? >> there are elements in this case that go outside of the state of florida, which i will not speak to. the reason being is that we had a meeting yesterday with the federal agencies and we passed along to them the information that had been developed during this case and so now it's within their purview to investigate this case. if it's within the confines of escambia county, of course, we will be involved. on a routine basis, video enhancement, we used the federal bo bureau of investigation, anything involve members of this group that may have been involved with drug activity, we would coordinate with our narcotics division and the drug enforcement agency. they were involved from those perspectives. again, anything that we developed outside the confines

of the state of florida have been turned over to those agencies. >> were these men hired to kill the billings? >> we have no knowledge of that. >> motive? you said there was one motive or more than one motive? >> you've moved into the prosecutorial area and i'll defer that to mr. eden. >> i think the safest, easiest, clearest thing to say is that the primary motive in this case is robbery. home invasion, robbery. >> do you know what was taken? >> what did they rob from there? >> well, they did take items that you would normally expect to be taken in a robbery. >> money? jewelry? >> well, a safe. >> where was the safe? >> well, we really can't go into any additional details. i gave you that in order to demonstrate to you what the motive was and put to rest many

questions about the motive. and hopefully that will do that. >> has the safe been recovered? >> i can't -- and again, as prosecutor, i'm sure you understand that i'm not going to get into the specifics of the prosecution of the case. and really most of the questions you're going to ask me about the prosecution of the case, and really the facts of the case. i will not be able to speak to. and i'm sure that you understand -- >> what were some of the contents of the safe? >> i'm not at liberty -- not prepared to go into that at that time. i'm not prepared to go into that at this time. i really think by indicating to you one of the items that was taken, we've demonstrated to you the primary motive was home invasion/robbery. and really, there's -- it's going to be difficult for either the sheriff or either one of us to answer additional questions about that, because this case still has to be tried in a court of law. >> what tied these suspects together? the people from escambia county

>> i really, myself don't want to go into detail on that. the sheriff can speak to that briefly. >> yes. again, what we have is business dealings, again, i will use the example of mr. gonzalez sr. he owned a pressure washing business, part-time. he was basically a day laborer also. he would hire members of this group or this organization to work on a part-time basis on an as-needed basis, as work would come through. the individuals that we have secured in the last phase of this investigation that are currently in custody from oskaloosa county. their ties are from an auto dealing group. the one pivotal person in this organization is leonard patrick gonzalez jr. he's the organizer. >> he's the mastermind you talked about yesterday? >> one moment.

>> we'll not speak to that issue at this time. >> you said that there's one more person that you're sort of looking at. >> yes. >> ways the nature of the thing that you're concerned about? was that individual -- >> anyone that aided or abetted in the commission of this crime. >> sheriff, did any of these suspects flat-out confess? >> they did. they did. i just stated, the last four individuals from oskaloosa county. >> -- what his goal was in this? >> no, he did not. >> what was the last time the suspects were [ inaudible ]? >> that information we won't release at this time. >> sheriff, what about the -- can you clarify on the connection with the county people and the power washing company, whose company was that? >> you're confused -- you confused my statement. the power washing company was owned by leonard patrick

gonzalez sr., senior, the elder. we have tied wayne coldiron to him on a day laborer basis. now you go to four workers tied to an auto detailing business called fifth dimensions. >> does this make you feel better? >> we've invited the family to this press conference. we did not state that they would make any statements at this time. >> this fifth dimension auto detailing, the people that work there, what was their connection in this? >> they had a friendship with leonard patrick jr.. >> and they all worked -- they arrested suspects that worked for fifth dimensions auto detailing? >> yes, they did. >> were any of those owners of it? >> yes, yes. >> who owns it? >> itf the primary goal of this

was robbery and they took the safe, then why in your view did they have to kill the two people? >> that's speculation. i will not speculate on how the crime spun out of control. >> do you feel you got everyone behind bars? >> you bet you, because they have the escambia county sheriff's office. >> are we talking a couple hundred dollars or did they keep all of their money in that safe and not put any of it in the bank. did they take hundreds of thousands? >> will edens has spoken to that issue. we will not discuss the contents of that safe. >> do you know who the shooters were item. >> yes, we do. >> will you release that? >> no. >> you said the crime spun out of control. >> that's not what i said. i used that as an example. who knows why a crime spins out of control. unless you're present at the time the crime occurred and you're an active participant,

you cannot speak to that issue. >> have they spoken to that? >> no, they have not. >> sheriff, was that a struggle, is that why they were killed? >> i will not speak to that issue. >> what is it about gonzalez jr., why are you [ inaudible ]? >> understand something. during this investigation, at its inception, we didn't focus in on anyone. again, this was due to the professionalism and the hard work of captain wood and his group. we started with a videotape surveillance that we pulled that gave us a red van. and from that, again, the investigation progressed to the development of these witnesses. at no time did we know until the investigation ensued that anyone was involved. we had no names, of course. >> can you discuss at all how he planned the crime or what kind of planning went into the crime? >> we have information that indicates that there was an amount of practice that was involved. there are a couple of

individuals that have prior military backgrounds in this group. so, again, as we stated early on in this investigation, it was really only one element, it was a very well planned and well executed operation. >> sir, can you tell me where it was where you sort of got your big break? you started with the red van, but when did you start to put faces on to the people who were involved? >> the big break was the video surveillance system that the billings family had in their home, actually on that compound, if you will. the second big break was when the news media, and again, my thanks to all of you for doing this for us, that you got behind this case and put it out in the media. then we began to receive calls and e-mails as to red vans all throughout this surrounding area. then, again, we focused it dun and narrowed it down, i should say, to such a point that we got a lead on this specific vehicle and then the case was on. >> sl, have you charged --

[ inaudible question ] >> everyone expresses remorse when they're caught. >> have the charges against leonard been upgraded now? >> we're in the process of upgrading the charges on mr. gonzalez sr. to an open count of murder. >> at that point, will all the suspects be charged with an open count of murder? >> yes. >> what was a 16-year-old doing with these people? >> he was part of the auto detailing group and he was with the group. i'm sorry, i didn't understand? >> the time of day that this occurred? >> there is not. not that we can determine. let me correct that statement. that is a question -- to answer that question would contain information that i'm not prepared to speak to. >> -- the background of these

suspects? >> numerous individuals here have criminal backgrounds, which i think most of the members of the media have pulled. i think if you'll get with us after the press conference, we'll assist you in that very thing. >> military background? >>well get that information for you after the press conference. >> was everything recovered that was taken? >> i will not speak to that issue. >> have you recovered guns? >> i would not speak to that issue. >> how big was the safe? did they need five guys to pull it out of the house? >> a medium-sized safe. >> what is a medium-sized safe? >> i won't speak to that issue. if you go to any safe or lock company, you'll see small safes, medium-sized safes. it's a visual thing. >> sheriff, are you releasing the 911 tapes? i believe mr. edens has made a statement, we are not. >> not at this time. as the case progresses under the rules that exist in florida, a lot of additional will come out that we really cannot address

here at the news conference today and under our rules, once the paperwork has been filed with the court, then it's public record and you'll have access to it and you can check, there will be some information filed relatively soon that will answer a lot of the questions that you people of the media, legitimate questions you've asked today that we just cannot answer. >> what's going on with the children? >> the children are with family members. i've stated many times they are in a safe, loving, and secure environment. we are working with the family through our victim's advocate and through some of our investigators ensuring that that family is taken care of. >> can you speak as to whether or not these people already prosecuted, together with the same prosecutor, or -- >> this train's been moving real fast. those decisions have not yet been made. i'm glad that we were able to move forward as rapidly as we did and get to this point. i think the sheriff and i both

agree that now is the time to consolidate the investigation, to review the investigation, to tie up loose ends, and we'll begin to focus on issues involving prosecution in court after that. >> will the 16-year-old be charged as an adult? >> yes. >> what are the charges? >> murder. open count of murder. well, it's not murder one. the way we do it in florida is just an open count of murder. only a grand jury can indict for first-degree murder. >> so the 16-year-old was inside the house? he was one of those that was inside the house? >> the 16-year-old was intimately and heavily involved, but really it's difficult for me as a prosecutor under florida law to get specific about facts and evidence. and i hope you appreciate that. >> what's the time line as far as first court appearances and grand jury? what would you expect the time

line? >> okay. i can answer some questions and give you some estimates. in terms of first appearance, four, i believe, of the defendants will have a first appearance today, two in op oskaloosa county and two in escambia county held at 1:30 at the courthouse. as far as the grand jury, we're in a process where we've moved so rapidly and it's been such a volumous investigation, there's so many investigators involved that we've got to debrief and consolidate and review. it may be some time, but in general terms, i would anticipate that within a few weeks, this matter will be presented to a grand jury. >> at that time, are you going to seek first-degree murder indictments? >> yes. >> in each and every case? >> yes. >> and will you seek the death

penalty? >> let's address -- there's two questions there. let's address the first question first. with regard to first-degree murder, there's premeditated murder and felony murder under florida law, and some of the individuals, we will charge them with felony murder. again, it's really a little premature to separate out exactly how the charges will be placed, but i have decided based on what i know about the investigation that i will seek a first-degree murder indictment against all defendants, either premeditated or first-degree felony murder. it's premature for me to speak to the death penalty at this time. the death penalty is such an ultimate penalty. we have a process in our office that is very deliberate that we go through that takes several weeks before -- >> florida attorney general, bill edens and escambia county sheriff david morgan announcing the arrest of two more people, a total now of seven in that murder near pensacola.

we'll be back with lewis free, the former fbi director, as a witness on behalf of sonia sotomayor and mark whitaker from nbc news on the other side of the break. i was in the grocery store when i had a heart attack. my daughter was with me.

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welcome back. as we have a break, a lunch break for the senators, we go to the senate where former fbi director louis freeh stands by. he's one of the witnesses that will be testifying in favor of sonia sotomayor. it might surprise some people that you are in her behalf, a republican nominee. a republican who was in, of course, several republican administrations, until you, of course, as fbi and as a judge, you were to the partisan, but you know her as a district court

judge. what do you know about her that would counteract this image of her as a judge that would rule from ethnicity rather than from the law? >> she was a republican nominee on the bench when i met her in 1992 in the southern district of new york. we had a tradition where the newest judge, which was me, would become sort of the mentor and training judge, so to speak, of a newly arrived judge. that's when i met her. and it was actually a great opportunity for me to work with her, sitting with her in court, as a second seat, helping her review and prepare opinions and from that insight which came from many months of working very closely, our clerks also worked very closely, i saw a new judge, a young judge who was completely fair, open minded, thorough, applied the law, gathered all

the facts and really deliberated over how things should be decided and what the right outcome was consistent with the law? those are all the hallmarks of not only a good judge, but a judge that has fidelity to the law and does not go outside the boundaries and parameters of precedent, which she has not, even in the 17 years as a judge. so, you know, the activist label, which i think is sometimes for people a convenient way to describe a judge who doesn't agree with them is certainly not applicable to her. she is adherent to the law and a judicial practitioner who applied the law, consistently with precedent. >> how do you explain the wise latina comment, as senator sessions pointed out today, she said it seven times and she talked about a wise latina reaching a better conclusion than a white man. >> well, you know, i think she explained that pretty well, andrea. you talked about the speech, the

other references to it. i think you've got to look at the context of the speech. she was talking to young lawyers and law students. it was a motivational speech. you know. we have here a record of 17 years of written opinions of decision making. we have her reputation and credibility, not just among judges, i was one of her colleagues at the time, but among defense lawyers and prosecutors, police officers, civil litigants, she has an outstanding reputation as a judge, finds the facts, analyzes them and applies the law. so i think it's interesting, you know, to take off on a sound bite or a comment, but i think here we're very fortunate to have a voluminous record and was pointed out several times today, really a judge who in the last

100 years of that court has more experience than we've seen. she's also been a trial judge with which i think is a phenomenal asset to that court. >> as fbi director, one of your many jobs was to investigate terror bombings. you investigated cobar towers, where we lost our military personnel in saudi arabia. one of the broad category of issues that's going to come before her as senator feinstein was pointing out, the whole balance between the executive and the legislative branch and how much oversight over intelligence. what in her background equips her for this. what markers might there be in her background as to how she would come down on the question of congressional oversight, of the executive branch, on these very tough cases and issues of the fisa law and electronic surveillance, for instance? >> they are very tough cases and it's a very delicate balance

between our liberty and our safety, which is why we have a constitution and which is why in the last administration, you had, you know, a majority of the supreme court mostly republican appointees overruling the white house white house on constitutional grounds on not one or two or three or even four instances that the reach of the executive powers was compromising the constitution, so i think in that tradition, you will see here a judge for over 17 years has been consistent in applying the constitution. has the moral courage and confidence to rule against the executive if she thinks that's appropriate. she has done that a number of times over the years in many decisions. she will adhere, i think to the constitution, but also allow the government and the law enforcement authorities to do their job. the president of the

international association of chiefs of police has not been sitting in that hearing room and supporting her because she's not believed to be very strong and very appropriately firm with respect to applying the rule of law to enhance the constitutional powers and authority of our police and fbi to protect safety, but also uphold the constitution. the isap, as you know, we represent 17,000 police chiefs in the country. it's the largest, most prestigious police organization and i think that gives you a great insight that she will be supportive of law enforcement, but she'll also protect the constitution. >> louis freeh, great to see you, thank you very much. a former fbi director and witness for sonia sotomayor still to come after he finishes her questions and answers with the senators. here in the studio, mark whitaker, nbc news washington bureau chief and msnbc's own pat buchanan joining me.

mark, we were talking earlier about some of the big, hot-button issues that came up today and one of them is, of course, affirmative action, the whole new haven case. this is the way senator leahy questioned sonia sotomayor, a friendly questioning, of course opinion >> ironically, if you had done something other than followed the precedent, some would be now attacking you as being an activist. you followed the president. so now they attack you as being biased and racist. it's kind of a unique thing. you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. what do you react to the supreme court's decision in the new haven's firefighters case? >> the issue was not what we would do or not do, because we were following precedent and when you are on a circuit court, you are only obligated to follow precedent.

the issue in ricci is what the city did or could do when it was presented with a challenge to one of its tests for promotion -- that was not quota case, this was not an affirmative action case. >> but the ricci case will forever be known as an affirmative action case. she's trying to describe it narrowly, according to the law. but the way it has been interpreted, not legally, but politically, it's an affirmative action case and she is being tagged with it. >> first of all, leahy very deliberately put it on the table before the republicans could get to it and framed it in a way that kind of set it up for her to answer. but as you say, essentially, her defense is, there was already a ruling by the district court. it was really about whether the city of new haven had grounds to throw out the test. >> fearing a lawsuit. >> because they might be sued by the minority firefighters and so forth. and she was saying, look, based

on the -- their ruling and on the arguments that were made before us, we thought that the district court ruling could stand. it was -- although, meaningfully, when leahy followed up and said, now that the supreme court has struck down that ruling and set a new standard, would that now apply, and she said, yes. >> one of the other hot-button issues, pat buchanan, is guns. the second amendment issue, orrin hatch from utah, very fiercely devoted to the gun rights, as a fundamental right, not an individual right, and a right that is a federal right, not just a state right. and she may not welcome this, but this just in, the brady campaign for -- against gun rights has endorsed sonia sotomayor today. that might not be the endorsement she would most welcome. >> i don't think she's going to be stopped by the gun issue. i think there's no doubt about

it she probably believes in gun control and believes state rights and doesn't agree with the scalia decision, but let's get back to the more important thing, the affirmative action thing. she said seven times, i believe a wise latina lady will come to a better decision than a white male. seven times. >> she didn't disavow that? >> she said it seven times why? because she believes it. take the lady at her word. not this robotic recitation. let me read you what david kirkpatrick in once sentence "the new york times" reporter said. he said, judge sotomayor has championed the importance of race and ethnicity at almost every stage of her career. she did at princeton, she did at yale, she denounced the -- >> but pat, she would argue that she hasn't done it from the bench. >> the point is, anyone who has spent her whole life advancing

ethnic, if you will, racial politics, is going to allow that all aside when she's got the power to right the law of the united states? it is inherently noncredible. >> mark whitaker? >> the fact is, we have been -- have seen, or at least have portrayed two different sonia sotomayors. there's one, the sotomayor, the judge who you see in her rulings, and that's what the democrats have emphasized, based on precedent, fairly moderate, and then there's a different judge, the republicans would say, that you would see in her speeches. and what they're saying is that it may be just as relevant to look at those speeches, because as an appellate court judge, she's been constrained in applying what may be her own personal philosophy, but in the supreme court, she would be less constrained. that's the relevance, at least, of bringing it up. but it really is interesting that you have one side emphasizing the case law and another emphasizing everything she said outside of the --

>> you've got to take the woman in whole. and the woman in whole is a tremendous advocate of racial and ethnic preferences to create a certain measure of equity in society and diversity in society. every decision that comes down that way -- >> where do you see that, pat? >> i see it -- well, frankly, she was a member of la rozza. >> you can be a member of organizations that don't necessarily define -- >> your article of faith is in favor of racial and ethnic quotas and preferences and set asides. her whole life is, she's up there in princeton, gets in as an affirmative action baby by her own testimony. first thing she does is wire atw and demands that they hire more latino professors up there. same thing at yale. >> does that accurately reflect her record at princeton and yale? >> i don't think it was an accident that leahy also asked her to talk about her trial judge experience in his first question. because, look, most people

watching this don't understand what an appellate judge -- >> and her role as a tough prosecutor. >> but they do understand what a trial judge does if they've been to a trial, if they have watched trials on tv or in movies. she said, what a good judge is to listen to the facts, listen to the arguments, and then make a ruling based on the law. and i think that what she was trying to say is, my experience, my diversity, is relevant in terms of interpreting the facts and the experience, but at the end of the day, i'm still going to rule on the law. >> you're a political reporter, andrea. they're presenting her as a tough law and order judge, a strict construction it, follow the law in the constitution. in other words, a little scalia or a little alito. we know that is nonsense. why did barack obama select his final four choices, all women, and then pick the latina out of there? this is affirmative action that he's -- it's an affirmative action judge. he knows the conclusion he wants, knows the signal he wants

to send. why not just be honest about it. in my judgment, this is exactly what this is about. >> msnbc's special coverage, our live coverage of the confirmation hearings for supreme court nominee sonia sotomayor will continue just in a moment. up next, senator judd gregg, "the new york times'" neil louis, chris cillizza, and norah o'donnell. most for headaches. for arthritis pain... in your hands... knees... and back. for little bodies with fevers.. and big bodies on high blood pressure medicine. tylenol works with your body... in a way other pain relievers don't... so you feel better... knowing doctors recommend tylenol... more than any other brand of pain reliever.

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(tucci) more bars in more places. at&t. the best coverage worldwide. (announcer) get a nokia e71x the thinnest smart phone for $99.99 after mail-in-rebate. and you're watching live pictures right now of the senate hearing. the hearing room as the senators are going to be returning from their lunch caucuses. joining us now, republican senator judd gregg in new hampshire, a ranking republican on the senate budget committee. what have you heard so far in the hearings, senator, that makes you lean one way or the other on judge sotomayor? >> well, unfortunately, we've been in the health care markup for the last four weeks. so i haven't heard too much, but

talking to some of my colleagues who have been there, they said it's been a fairly low-key, fairly unexciting event that she's been very forthright. >> unexciting is good for a nominee, right? unexciting means you're not melting down, in the parlance of lindsey graham. >> absolutely. i think to the extent this stays vanil vanilla, it works to her favor. >> there are a lot of trouble signs along the health care route for the white house right now. what are you -- within your caucus, what are you talking about in terms of the tax proposals that have come out from the house side and the likelihood that the president can achieve his goal of pushing this through before the august recess? >> well, there are. i mean, this is an incredibly complex piece of legislation. it affects every american and the issue for us is we don't want to create a new system of health care in this country, where the government basically runs it and puts the government between you and your doctor or a bureaucrat between you and your

doctor and end up with delays and rationing like they have in canada in england. i don't see any reason why we need to rush to an august recess passage. the finance committee hasn't even produced a bill yet. that's going to take, i would think, a considerable amount of time to vet once they do produce a bill. and my concerns are that we get something that covers everybody in america, that makes sure that people who want to keep their insurance can keep it and in the outyears slows the rate of health care cost and doesn't bankrupt our country with a lot more debt. >> i know you're known as a deficit hawk. the treasury has announced that the deficit has now hit $1 trillion with a "t" mark. >> that's staggering. >> it is staggering, sobering, is there anything that can be done in the midst of a recession? >> absolutely. you can put in place policies that say after we move out of this recession, which we're going to do, things are starting

to improve, as you get out of the recession, you continue to run deficits that are $1 trillion a year and don't run the federal debt up to 60% or 80% of gdp. and that means putting in place policies which bend the outyear cost curves. right now this administration has proposed a budget that massively expands the debt and deficit, even after we get out of this recession window. and that's not acceptable. it's not fair to do to our children and it's going to put our country on an unsustainable course. >> senator judd gregg, thanks for joining us today. neil lewis of "the new york times," and chris cillizza, author of the fix on washingtonpost.com, joining us now. neil, first to you, what you saw at the hearing today, the most important marker that she set, was that to try to disavow any ethnic bias from her wise latina comments? >> yes. i thought she was very fairly

explicit about it. and i think in doing so, gave any moderate republican on the committee and later the full fln opportunity or an excuse or explanation to vote for her. she was quite explicit, said she has not, will not, does not use ethnic preference in her judging. she disavowed in a clever way interpretations of earlier remarks and she got quite into it in the colluquy with senator sessions. >> chris cillizza, do you think she managed to affirm herself that she was discriminating against frank ricci, the white firefighter. she tried to argue that their ruling from the appellate court in connecticut was a narrowly framed ruling and she was following precedent not being an activist judge. >> i heard your interview with judd gregg. i think he's basically got the gist of it which is if she sticks to her past statements on

these issues that she knew frankly, sonia sotomayor knew that case was going to come up. if she sticks to the answers she's given in the past since she's been nominated in this hearing, she knows there's an extremely high likelihood she'll get confirmed. in one way it makes for not all that interesting television because we've heard a lot with the exception of her comments on the wise latina, neil's right, she sought to explain that further. we've heard a lot of this before. i feel like in some ways, everyone's going through the motions here. republicans feel the need to bring these things up, to try and get answers out of her. she knows as long as she doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of news, she's likely to be the ninth supreme court justice. >> neil, on the law, you know the law so well, how is she doing at defending her -- the more controversial of her decisions, particularly on affirmative action? >> i think she's fine. i think the interesting thing, chris says it's not so exciting, that's not true.

i'm kind of intrigued to looking ahead to this afternoon, senators jon kyl of arizona and john cornyn of texas come from states with hispanic populations. there's no doubt this is a thrilling event for hispanics. i think they may be obliged to pull the punches, which means -- >> and more of our special coverage. thanks so much to nick lewis. neil lewis of "the new york times" and chris cillizza. more of our coverage on the judicial hearing of the no, ma'am nation of sonia sotomayor. chris matthews will pick it up on the other side. stay with us. ouse. where getting a new vehicle is easy. because the price on the tag is the price you pay. you'll find low straightforward pricing on remaining '08 and '09 models. including eight that offer an epa-estimated 30 miles per gallon highway or better.

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msnbc's norah o'donnell has some thoughts. nora. >> we are seeing judge sotomayor, her mother has arrived back, her brother. they'll start right on time at 2:00. just want to point out, i spoke with a senior administration official, chris, they're pushing back pretty hard on the tone and substance of the republican questioning today. specifically that of the ranking republican, senator jeff session, the senior official essentially saying in analyzing his questions that he spent so much time ignoring judge sotomayor's opinions as a judge and instead reading a handful of out of context lines, this according to the official. this also point out he spent 30 minutes spending time not on her judicial record but instead, stuff from her speeches. their main point, those close to judge sotomayor is that if you look at her 17 years on the federal bench that you will find a moderate record. so the only line of attack that the republicans have against her

is to look at her speeches. they say they're spending so much time on it. and they're saying that's ironic, given they had originally demanded more time to study all of her opinions. they didn't want to have these hearings at this time. they wanted to push them back even further. but a couple other things we'll see in the next coming hours here. we'll hear from other republicans, we'll hear from lindsey graham, of course, who yesterday said unless there's a complete meltdown she'll probably get approved. he told me, he wants to vote for her. this is probably not going to be a party line vote out of this committee. she's going to get a number of republicans. also, we'll hear from senators cornyn and senators kyl. those two republicans from states with heavy hispanic pop layings. that's a key factor. we'll see if they're less tough on her or will have a different tone than senator sessions had in his questioning. chris? >> okay, nora, thank you. let's go to gene cummings, assistant managing edit