>> harry and louise, a couple who represented opposition to the health care reform back in the '90s returned to national ads this time in support of health care reform. for our next read on politics, let's go to marx murray, deputy political director. is the tide on health care turning? you hear people in the white house say the momentum is on their side? >> hey, david and tamron. obviously, there are so many different moving parts and the american and medical association backing the house democratic bill is very good news for people who want to reform health care. but there are so many different moving parts we'll be following tomorrow and the rest of this month. but also we're going to be talking about the economy tomorrow. chief white house economic adviser larry summers is giving a big speech on the economy in washington, d.c. finally, you mentioned that barack obama is in new jersey campaigning for new jersey governor jon corzine later today. well, he's then heading to new york to address the naacp later tonight where he will be talking

about personal responsibility and then also education. >> mark, the politics of health care fascinating. the president has met with at least half a dozen republican senators who might be standing in the way. what's the latest reporting in terms of what the message is from the white house to the senators on health care? >> well, the message from the white house is now, now, now. they really want to bust out and have the house and senate vote and pass their bills on health care. so they're really isn't that much time when congress gets back from its august recess to really start moving and getting to a conference report. what we're hearing from republicans is slow down, slow down, slow down. this represents 17% of the economy. we need to take a long time to debate this. we heard senator olympia snowe tell that to an dre na mitchell easter -- andrea mitchell earlier today. >> make sure to check out first read first thing every morning.

david, another great show. thank you very much. >> thanks, tamron. on behalf of my great friend tamron hall, i'm david shuster. "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. at last, ricci speaks. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, witnesses for the prosecution. late today came the moment when were waiting for. frank ricci and other firefighters that sonia sotomayor ruled against in the new haven discrimination case testified at her confirmation hearing. they were great tv and made a compelling case that in skirting the charge that a promotion test result the city itself administered diskram nated against minorities, the city of new haven diskram nated against worthy firefighters like frank ricci who did well in the test.

>> the lower courts belief that citizens should be reduced to racial sta ticks is flawed. it only divides people who don't wish to be divided along racial lines. >> in just a moment we'll join the debate over this case of affirmative action and alleged' verse discrimination. plus, the white house strikes back. don't look now but the campaign season is upon us. we're talking off year. president obama is in new jersey campaigning for troubled governor jon corzine, but in reality he's fighting for his own administration pushing back against rejectionist democrats and stubborn republicans in the u.s. congress. also, how are we supposed to view the cia's failure ordered by vice president cheney to inform congress on its hit squad program? a violation of the public's right to know or just the latest example of how the agency is being used as a political football? "washington post" columnist david ignatius, former cia operative, bob baer, both take that on tonight. and guess who is the

possible 2012 republican presidential candidate with the highest favorability among all republicans in the country? according to the latest gallup poll, here is a hint, she's quitting her job in less than two weeks in a very cold state. that's in "the politics fix." finally, remember how john mccain used joe the plumber as part of his grand complain strategy last year? >> and we're going to go to washington and we're going to change washington and i'm going to bring joe the plumber with me, my friends. >> well, the senator's daughter, meghan mccain, now gives us a decidedly different take on her father's one-time campaign tool. maybe she's ready to offer up her own assessment that she wouldn't give us during the campaign. that's in the "hardball sideshow" tonight. we begin with new haven firefighter frank ricci who testified today at judge sonia sotomayor's confirmation hearing. pat buchanan is an msnbc political analyst.

john patton is president of the naacp defense fund. thanks for joining us. let's look at a bit of frank ricci's testimony. >> i studied harder than i ever had before, reading, making flash cards, highlighting, reading again, all my listening to prepared tapes. i went before numerous panels to prepare for the oral assessment. i was a virtual absentee father and husband for months because of it. in 2004 the city of new haven felt not enough minorities would be promoted and that the political price for complying with title seven, the city civil service rules, and the charter would be too high. therefore, they chose not to fill the vacancies. >> well, there you have it, pat. instead of promoting firefighters, they threw out the test, they threw out these guys who did well in the test and basically buckled to whatever. let's go with your view on it. what's the impact of mr. ricci's

testimony and also the testimony of a hispanic firefighter, mr. vargas, who also lost out in this decision by the city of new haven. >> well, frank ricci is what the american dream is all about, and he succeeded through hard work and tremendous effort to overcome obstacles others didn't have to achieve his dream, and he was denied it in part because sonia sotomayor, herself a beneficiary of affirmative action at princeton and yale, threw his appeal into the trash can, which even the second appellate court said was wrong when they voted on the thing and the supreme court, of course, overturned it, and all the justices i understand said they should at least have had a rehearing. so it tells us what sonia sotomayor is all about, and it tells us what frank ricci is all about. >> john payton, sir, your view from the naacp. what do you make of his testimony? >> well, it's the same testimony he's been giving before. i think he said something similar to that when he was on this show last time. but i don't think it actually relates to sonia sotomayor.

she acted appropriately in the decision she reached. what pat just said, that all the justices said that they had acted improperly is actually wrong. the dissenters made it clear that they would have affirmed what the circuit court panel had done below. you have to separate two issues. frank ricci complains about how he was treated in this case. that's one issue. the second issue is whether or not in fact the circuit court acted appropriately. i think if you heard anything from this set of hearings, it's that she acted completely appropriately abiding by existing precedent and that the supreme court changed the rules of the game and made a decision based upon a new rule, not the old rule. under the old rule which she had applied, the circuit court did exactly what it was supposed to do. >> there's a third issue, and that is whether frank ricci and those firefighters who passed that test and won those promotions were dealt with justly when they were denied

those promotions. on what grounds were they denied those promotions? no one has demonstrated that anything in that test was bigoted or biased against african-americans. >> that's not exactly the point. >> they got those things honorably. this is the fundamental point -- >> no, the point is whether or not the test was the right test. >> her whole life sonia sotomayor has argued for ethnic and racial preferences in hiring and promotions, in going to colleges, and in getting jobs, and that has been the theme of her life, and the question is can she sit on the supreme court and forget everything she brings to the court from her life? >> she's been on the court for 17 years. there's not another case that anyone pointed to that raised any issue along those lines at all. the question is -- >> let me raise one. >> that test was fair to all of the people taking it, and new haven concluded it was not. i think i said the last time i was on the show if we had a fairer test, no one would be

complaining because everyone is better off when everyone is treated fairly. new haven thought that the test -- >> why was it an unfair -- why was it an unfair test? because black americans, none of them were in the top 19? did that make it unfair per se? let me give you the new york case where sonia sotomayor said new york had to extend voting rights to felons at at ka and the other prisons because there were so many african-americans there and so many hispanics in there that not to give them the vote was represented a disparate impact of the law even though the 14th amendment says the states decide on who gets to vote. >> actually, that's not what that case was about either. it was about whether or not under the voting rights act, section two, you could deny the vote to people who were felons, and she read the law word by word and concluded that there was no exception and that she

dissented that they should have been allowed to vote. that's not about disparate impact. that's simply about whether or not you are denying people the right to vote. now, come back to the case at hand, which is what happened in new haven and whether or not that was a fair test. the real issue is whether that test was measuring what was supposed to be measured, and i think that the evidence was pretty clear that if you wanted to know who was going to be a good leader, who would be a good commander, that was not the way you would go about doing it. you would -- >> let me ask you, mr. payton, a lot of people believe that s.a.t. scores are unfair because they're tests, because they don't like the whole notion of a culturally based test. are you one of those who believe written tests per se are discriminatory? >> of course not. >> does judge sotomayor believe that? >> well, i don't know what she believes about that, but i don't think -- she obviously took all these tests, and no one would say let's use the s.a.t. to decide who ought to be a captain and a lieutenant on the new haven fire department.

>> sir, but you know as well as i do if of the eight top applicants for lieutenant and captain four of them were african-american, nobody would be looking at that test -- >> that's because -- >> that would have been just fine, but the very fact that african-americans didn't come in the top 19, that is why the test suddenly becomes suspect. maybe the reason is the african-american firefighters didn't study as hard. maybe they didn't work as hard. maybe they're not as bright. maybe they're not doing as well on these exams, but to automatically assume that some kind of discrimination must occur simply because the test results bring in 18 white folks and one hispanic, it seems to me is a rush to judgment. >> let me ask -- no one was assuming that, new haven actually had experience with african-american and hispanic firefighters being promoted, and, in fact, 15% of their captains and lieutenants were african-american and hispanic. so new haven knew from its own experience that they certainly had qualified firefighters who were black and african-american

and hispanic. this test was used for the first time. when this test was used for the first time, those results were inconsistent with new haven's own experience, and when they actually talked to some experts in testing, they had reason to believe the test was not measuring what they wanted measured. they need a fair test for everybody. >> all right. do you think given that test and give how it came out, those firefighters should have been ge nied the promotion? >> i think if everyone got to take a fair test then we would have had results, everyone would have felt very comfortable with. the flaw in this -- >> why are you uncomfortable with the results? >> i just told you. new haven has experience with african-american and hispanic firefighters doing just fine as captains and lieutenants, passing other tests and being promoted. they used this test for the first time. you have to examine tests and see if they're shth in fact, measuring what you want measured. >> your assumption is the test is unfair because the white favors came out on top.

i don't know where you come to that conclusion. >> no, actually there are guidelines in the eoc about how you look at this, and when they looked at this and then when they asked some experts about how the test was working, the experts made this following point that you certainly wouldn't use a multiple choice test as 60% of your decision which new haven does and very few, if any, other jurisdictions do. the jurisdictions closest by wa weight the multiple choice part as only 25%. >> here is something everybody can understand. are you arguing, mr. payton, and are you arguing the opposite, your arguing mr. payton the very notion of a multiple choice objective test where you have to answer particularly questions about specific questions, chemical fires, electrical fires, are you saying by its nature a written test which involves multiple choice answers is, in fact, inherently unfair? it sounds like you're saying you shouldn't give too much weight to that. well, why not? why not? >> if you were designing this test, i think you would change both the questions and its

weighting and i'm saying you cannot have a test. i'm saying the test ought to be weighted appropriately, and the most important thing you would want to know about who can be a leader is in an interview or some other assessment that would be much more focused on what you want in your captains and lieutenants. >> sir, you seem to be saying this test came in with the wrong result rtion and we got to get ourselves a test that will come in with the result -- >> you just keep saying that over and over again, but i never said that. >> i hear you gist find. >> if you want leadership, measure for leadership. >> let's go to what justice kennedy believes. do you believe she believes tests are irn harntly unfair? did she believe this? she's up for supreme court, not the naacp. >> i showed you that statement in "the new york times." culturally she believes some of the tests are culturally biased and therefore there should be affirmative action for hispanics and other minorities. i understand the argument for

african-americans but i don't understand the argument for hispanics in this sense. they were never enslaved. they never had jim crow. puerto ricans came to the united states in the 1950s to a liberal city. why are they being preferred ahead of port genes americans. >> we have many more minorities than african-americans who have been victims of nasty diskram nation including puerto ricans and other hispanics in this country. there's no question about how racism and discrimination have affected more than african americans in this country. >> let me mention, irish americans have certainly been discriminated against for almost 100 years. should irish americans be preferred in the ivy league and get affirmative action and eth mick preferences? >> you are making a slightly different point. this is not an affirmative action case. it's whether or not we can have a fair test, and, you know, we want a fair test for everybody. >> okay. >> if you have a fair test and people actually get their promotions on the basis of a fair test, no complaints from

anybody. >> let me ask you both, do you expect -- this is a political question. do you expect this will cost the nominee any votes? i have been sort of hunching here that lindsey graham, orrin hatch, chuck grassley are three republicans that might vote for her confirmation. do you think this is going to stop that, the performance by these two witnesses today, mr. vargas and mr. ricci? is it so compelling it will kill her xans chances -- >> i think it will have no effect. >> i don't know the answer to that. the majority republicans on the floor, a slim majority right now, would vote against -- >> i'm wondering whether she's going to get at least three. i'm of the opinion -- well, i'm not sure. i'm going to watch and see how it plays in the press the next 24 hours. i have a hunch that mr. ricci and mr. vargas were very compelling on the stand and would have been very boring hearings and they may be the only people with personality we've heard from including the nominee, who has been coached so much that she doesn't display any personality, and i think

it's hurt her, but we'll see. pat buchanan, thank you. john payton, too much coaching, too much coaching, too much cover-up of the real identity of a person who may be a hell of a lot more interesting candidate than we've seen. is the flap over dick cheney's secret cia plan to assassinate al qaeda leaders hurting the agency? he tried to keep it secret. we know that. can president obama make good on his promise to look forward not backward when his attorney general is considering an investigation of criminality among those who violate the law. david ignatius joins us to talk about the potential damage to the cia in the latest disclosures and potentially what the president is up to. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

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welcome back to "hardball." the latest story about the cia concealing a secret hit squad from congress turning the agency into a political football? that's what washington post columnist david ignatius, who is sitting right here, thinks. here along with us is former cia operative bob baer. gentlemen, i as a citizen would like to see the law honored. the cia is supposed to tell the congress what it's up to and what it anticipates doing. the word has gotten out they were planning to have a hit team going around the world killing al qaeda operatives. congress is supposed to know about such stuff. you're saying they didn't have to tell them? >> if they had an idea -- if i have an idea, do i have to tell you about it in advance? >> the law says so. if you have plans, anticipated, yes. >> if you have a program that's a real program, obviously you do need to inform congress. leon panetta is the new cia director, decided he should inform congress. if i had been director of the cia i probably would have done

it, too. whether it was illegal not to have done it is a separate question. >> why wouldn't cheney do so? why would cheney tell the cia don't tell congress? his daughter, who is the only one speaking on this, says because democrats can't handle hot stuff as she put it. in other words, democrats as a party are not trustworthy with national skrets. therefore, that's her father's reason for not telling them. >> divisive cheney rhetoric that basically the country has had enough of. cheney and company lost big-time in our presidential election. i do think that we went through a period of real hysteria where everything was held in tight, everybody was panicked. we're coming out of that period. i like the idea of panetta looking at this and deciding for now he doesn't want to do it and briefing congress about it. what i don't like, chris, is congress treating this as a gotcha. the advocates of speaker pelosi have been looking for evidence that the cia has been lying to the country. >> who is doing this? >> well, i'm told when panetta went up to brief congress on

this program that he had just found out about and decided he didn't want to do and he was briefing them immediately, i am told by people close to panetta the reaction of some house democrats was, ah-ha, we have vindication for what the speaker says. >> baus nancy pelosi several weeks back said he had been lied to by the cia. >> lied to by the cia, and i think that's really the problem here is that somehow we got to stop treating the cia as a political cia. >> your column today in "the washington post" said the democrats are using this situation, the failure of this cia to notify them because the vice president told them not to about a secret hit plan, is being used by the democrats and friends of the speaker to prove that they're not an honest organization. >> that is certainly the -- >> let me go to bob baer. how do you read this? my concern is that the vice president is operating in an executive capacity when under the constitution he has no executive authority and he himself has denied, as incredible as it seems, has denied his participation in the executive branch of government. he says for purposes of

disclosure of his income, et cetera, et cetera, he doesn't have to tell anybody he's part of the executive branch, which i find part of his m.o. your thoughts on this, bob. >> the vice president is out of bounds clearly. he's hidden a lot from congress, and there were assassination squads run out of the vice president's office, directed out of the vice president's office. i have heard enough of this to make it true. but on the cia's part, they're on firm ground. no weapons were deployed. no people were deployed. it was simply taking. it was contingent si planning. the cia does this all the time. if every time the cia comes up with an idea, went to the hill, it would be tied up forever. the cia is on firm ground and i completely agree with david that this is pelosi getting back at the cia for embarrassing her. >> how do you know she's doing this? how do you know she's doing this, bob? you said she's -- you just made a statement. nancy pelosi is getting back at the cia.

how do you know that? >> that whole tiff we went through before about what she knew about torture and what she didn't and the cia called her untruthful on this, i think they're mad about it. the democrats are mad about it. they raised the word assassination. look at the evil cia is out there, skrement teams and the rest of it, when they know full we will the cia had full authority after 9/11 to go out and kill people, targeted killings. >> well, look, i think it's a misuse of the term assassination. killing terrorists is not assassination. killing leaders is assassination by the definition in any dictionary, but was "the wall street journal," hardly a democratic tool, broke the story on monday. the word assassination was first used by "the wall street journal," not the democrats. sir? so you're accusing the democrats of something "the wall street journal" did and you're saying the democrats have put together a political hit operation to get the cia to make nancy pelosi look better. give me examples of who has done

that. give me a member of congress, his or her name, who has done that. >> the fact they wrote a letter saying they were lied to. there was affirmative disinformation passed from the cia, they provided no evidence for this. >> so the chairman of the intelligence committee you're talking about. >> exactly. and this letter has been on the internet. it's been made public. these accusations, it's just unseemly the way congress is going after the cia when it was really a problem in the white house. but, again, this is washington. you know, it's the stuff floats down, and the cia gets blamed, and it's demoralizing. it is not worth it. >> well, maybe we're reaching a confluence of opinion here, which is it's not the cia's fault that the vice president goes over there any number of times in the buildup to war and tries to sharpen their case for a war with iraq, and now we find out the vice president told them at some point don't release any information to congress because as cheney's daughter now talks for him, says because they can't trust the democrats with hot stuff. we have a constitution where

somebody without executive authority or constitutional authority called dick klain che out there telling our intelligence agencies what to do and what not to tell congress they're doing. your thoughts, david. you're an expert. you know that agency as well as any journalist. >> my feeling is that the cia had no greater enemy, the cia professionalism had no greater enemy during the bush years than vice president cheney. he was leaning on them, beating up on them. he was, i think, way over the line. what we ought to want, what you ought to want, but bob baer wantsz because he worked there, is for us to have a professional intelligence service the way we have a professional military and for the country to respect that and politicians not to take turns taking shots at them. cheney took his shots when he was in and now we have -- i do think we have house democrats taking their shots. i think at some point the american people have to say enough. we wouldn't tolerate it with the military. we're not going to tolerate it with our intelligence service. back off, everybody. and i think this is a useful incident. you asked me for names and numbers and all -- >> i agree with you.

i hope i haven't spoken ill. i completely agree. i think it's cheney's fault. do you agree with that, that the democrats are abusing the cia the way cheney was. >> absolutely. it's their turn. they control the committees. they leak information. they're mad at the cia. sometimes justifiably, but the point is rather than taking thing out on this white house or the last, they're taking it out on the cia. it's an easy target and it's a target that cannot defend itself. >> and i believe that men and women who go behind the enemy lines and risk their lives every second of their lives for this country and get no credit because they can't be identified deserve better treatment than this. the vice president will we'll continue to talk about until he comes on this program and explains himself. david and bob, thank you. up next, remember how john mccain spent his presidential campaign talking up this fellow whose name isn't actually joe and his job isn't actually the plumber, but they call him joe the plumber. mccain's daughter has some choice words for joe and that's coming in the "sideshow." you're watching, it "hardball"

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welcome back to "hardball." time for the "sideshow." first up, plumbing the depths. remember joe the plumber, the mccain campaign's prime time working stiff. you can see him up on the stage at a mccain campaign rally last october with the presidential candidate's daughter, meghan. nine months later she's out there with a xa adversarial attitude toward the mccain campaign prop. here is what she told "out" magazine a publication zbered to gay and lease beian readers. joe the plumber is a dumb ass. he should stick to plumbing. if that's your term for joe, i wonder what sob ri quet she has for sarah. a topic she won't address at

least until deadline day arrives on the book she's planning to write. for tonight's big number, sarah palin has touted as the biggest fund-raising asset for the republican party. as we'll get to in "the politics fix" tonight, she's got the highest favorability of the leading republican candidates for 2012. here is an additional fact. moveon.org september out a fund-raising e-mail this week asking for money to counter what they say are the false claims sarah palin has making on climate change. how much have they raised. $100,000. see how the left is laughing all the way to the bank on sarah palin? 100k in just 124 hours. villainizing the lady from alaska seems to be paying off. up next, president obama hits the campaign trail for new jersey governor jon corzine. but how much is he campaigning for corzine and how much is he really campaigning for barack obama? you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. ( conversation )

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i'm julia boorstin with your cnbc market wrap. a late rally pushed stocks higher as investors bet on big earnings for technology companies. the dow gained 95 points. the s&p 500 added 8 and the nasdaq finished 22 points higher. ibm gained more than 3% ahead of an earnings report. ibm posted a second quarter profit of $3.1 billion. that's up 12% over last year and well ahead of analysts' prediction. the tech giant is also increasing its full year profit forecast by a whopping 50 cents a share. google shares finished slightly higher ahead of their second quarter report. helping trigger today's late rally, positive comments from

the economist known affection e affectionately as dr. doom. he says the worst of the financial crisis may be over and predicted the economy will emerge from the recession toward the end of the year. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." well, the president is hot back on the campaign trail. remember he's back on the hot campaign trail up in new jersey today. let's take a look at him. he's campaigning for jon corzine, who is in big trouble up there. he's the incumbent democratic governor. he's also going to be helping out -- biden is out in there in virginia. every year after a presidential campaign there's two big governor's races. one is new jersey and one in virginia. here is the president campaigning today. >> we inherited an economy where washington didn't pay for anything and made a lot of promises, so we ended up

inheriting a $1.3 trillion deficit. financial regulation nobody even thought of. and as a consequence, people could take enormous risks and have main street end up paying the costs. but you know what? that was the america of yesterday. we're now looking at the america of tomorrow. we're going forward. that's not the america our children are going to inherit. >> chuck todd is nuz chief white house correspondent. he's sitting right across from me tonight. also our political director. and jonathan martin politico's senior director. does the president miss the trail or does he just have to get the engine hot for health care? i' >> earlier this week, he likes the complain trail. he pushed back against republicans for the first time

on the economy. white house aides know he's better on the stump than at the rose garden. you can't be pointing your finger and dropping your "g"s. >> the dropping of theg "g"s and the sleeves. >> this new jersey thing, this is one of the boxes he has to check as the leader of the democratic party. you don't do a rally with 17,000 people in july, unless you don't want to be doing that rally with 17,000 people in october because you're -- they're getting it out of the way. get it out of the way. >> the president's biggest worry, that the litmus test on how he's doing, if he loses jersey and virginia, if both go down and the republicans win, he will be seen as a lame duck almost. >> don't want to lose both. you have to win one of thesm. if you win one, then it's a nonstory f you lose both of them, and especially jersey, a blue state -- >> no, no, no. this is about corzine. it's a one-state thing. >> that's what i said.

>> so he's got to win virginia. >> i don't think jersey matters either way. referendum on corzine. >> if you lose both politically it's a problem. when he was having small problems with the stimulus, what did he do? he left, went to places like ft. myers and campaigned. >> is he almost in a sense -- he's got to have a lot of noise and action? i have a sense -- i was away for two weeks. i got back i thought i missed out on what's going on. did he feel he went away too long for the g-8 meeting, going to ghana, russia, the papacy, all that stuff? it seemed he was if not off his game, off a little. >> it's the timing of the trip. he loves being overseas. he likes being america's -- the leaders of the free world. he enjoys the world. remember when he got in the fight with hillary clinton during the primary he always felt very comfortable. everybody thought he was inexperienced.

on foreign affairs he's very comfortable, but the timing of this trip. health care is a pain for them to get through congress. holding max baucus' hand on this. >> the chairman of the finance committee. >> back and forth and you need to be holding his hand every single day. any day that you don't, you know, he's wondering how come you're not holding my hand? what happened? >> baucus said in the paper today -- baucus says he's not helping, the president is not being helpful because he's not pointing to a direction on how to pay for this health care b l bill. he's not talking about taxing the benefits of those with good health care plans? is that what -- i'm sorry. the people on the hill who have to pass this bill feel the president is not carrying the heavy load here. >> i think they're wanting more direction from the white house, especially as far as how to pay for it. there's hesitation among democrats to tax employers because organized labor is adamantly against it. i think that's a nonstarter. at the same time where does the money come from? do you do the surcharge on the rich and then open the door to a

tax increase charge by the republicans there. is concern on the hill. most striking thing i saw today was senator harry reid, the leader in the senate, saying the president's campaign organization airing these campaign ads against democratic senators was, quote, a waste of money. >> well, you know why that is? because they're complaining to harry reid -- they're going to harry reid, get the dnc to stop running the ads. >> are they running -- >> they're running -- >> here is what i would think. i remember back in '93, a woman named marjorie, a democrat from the suburbs of philly was asked by president clinton to vote for his tax bill. she voted for it. the republicans mocked her on the floor and said bye, by, more jor ri and she got beaten by john fox. could it be a lot of democrats are scared, not just the conservatives. if they vote for this big health care bill with an increase in taxes for the rich, 4%, 5%, that they're going to get nailed?

>> because they will be hit as tax increasers. of course they are. any member of congress their chief concern first and foremost is always their own behind. the fact is these moderate democrats, especially those in cycle are -- >> i will say this, this is why everybody was wondering why is the white house rushing? they're rushing because they know the closer this calendar moves to ten, the harder it is to corral enough votes. they think they can get all the votes they can get now because it's an easier vote to explain away and have other votes to cover it up over the next -- >> here is my concern. the biggest argument for health care reform among liberals and progress sifs for the last 20, 30 years is we're already paying for health care in the emergency room so you might as well do it officially and give some people some pride. if we're already paying for it why don't we take the savings we're going to get from all the e.r. services people are getting and apply it to a national health care plan? if that was true, we're already paying for it, how come we got to have a big tax increase to pay for it?

>> that is part of it. they'll claim part of this money they're funding is in that savings. the problem is you also go through all of this crazy congressional mum bow jumbo, congressional office doesn't score this, doesn't coscore. >> i think we need better staff work. i think the president is not getting served by the hill staff in getting these cost savings because the only way to sell this to the average american is smarter and better in terms of health delivery to have this new system than the old system because most people already have health insurance. most taxpayers have health insurance. >> and not only that, most voters. >> voters who show up in off-year elections have health insurance. >> and the biggest problem with this, new health care plan won't go into effect for four or five years. >> but the taxes will. >> yes. >> i know. let's get to the bottom line here. both politically skilled persons. you said something on this program the other night that you think the president will get a

health care bill through by the end of the year. do you believe that still? >> 100%. >> a bill? >> a bill. we'll see the signing ceremony. and he will be able to claim the same success lyndon johnson did with medicare. a major first year accomplishment. >> absolutely. >> why? >> if he didn't they've set themselves up for failure. they have set themselves -- it's too big of a hit. >> how do they get 60 senators? >> well, they have 58 democrats. if they have to, they will wheel bob byrd in if they have to to get the 59th vote. ted kennedy will make it for this vote. >> part of the reasons why they're going after republicans still even though they can do this on a party line is by just reaching out to moderate "r"s, that's going to calm ben nelson down. >> any way they will lose dianne feinstein? >> i doubt it. >> she's worried about the fas cal chaos in california. >> that's a tough no vote. >> if she does she will get ned

lamonted and they will get primaried the next time she's up. >> she's enormously popular. thank you, chuck todd. >> not in the -- >> not -- >> i would question that. j >> well, thank you. in my base. i'm allowed to play favorites. i love dianne feinstein. up next, sarah palin's resignation as governor of alaska may not have hurt her chance of becoming president, but new polls show it hasn't exactly helped either. very positive numbers for sarah palin. back in a minute. access to favorite courses chef's meal with pommes frites perhaps a night at the theater with extra special seats additional hotel night, our treat your world in perfect harmony: priceless

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we're back. time for "the politics fix" with syndicated radio host michael smerconish and joan walsh editor in chief of salon.com. well, i'm not sure i can hear anybody here right now, unfortunately, but we've got the latest gallup poll right now. given a choice of six candidates, mitt romney leads with 26%. palin is at 21%. huckabee is at 19%. newt gingrich is at 14 .. pawlenty and barbour are down there at the bottom. it's an interesting poll. right now i'm going to go over the polling right now. it's fascinating to see that sarah palin -- romney is in the lead, but let's look at the favorability ratings among republicans. this is just among republicans.

palin has the highest favorability at 72%. that's quite a lead over huckabee who is down huckabee, who's down there at 59%, and mitt romney's at 56%. it looks to me like palin is do incredibly well. we're going to come right back in a moment and have our guests join us right now. ♪

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then the rest of them, what do you make of that overall, what that says? >> i know is sounds surprising when you look at the strength of palin's numbers, because you would expect giving her resignation she would have dipped or declined. she hasn't among the base. i'm not surprised. i hear from these folks as radio callers, they are the hardcore base, and, chris, the more negative she's portrayed nationally, the more emboldened they become. the question is, can she grow that base? and the answer is, no, she cannot. >> i agree with michael. she went out on a note of blaming the media and blaming the east coast elites, even though 15 of 16 ethics complaints were filed by alaskans, hr constituents, chris, but as a republican you can't go wrong by bashing the media, and people believe she's a renegade.

the things that make me or you or michael say she doesn't have the experience, why is she giving up this executive job? which is a great platform to go away and do god knows what. they see why she's doing it. they believe she's bev off as an outsider. i don't think so. i think her negative numbers have grown. >> so to make your point, joan, here she is, let's look at the second chart. just asking if you like her or not. >> no, it does not surprise me. don't forget we're talking about a vastly diminished party, but if you were to see numbers that

reflect -- it would be a far different picture. >> here's everybody included, unfavorability. i can assume it's -- but 45%, joan, to make your point is unfavorability, but in the end, all voters don't pick nominees. in the end, the party regulars, and in an off-year or an election which may not look too good to republicans, doesn't the wilder wing of the party like mcgovern did in '72, don't the wilder people win when it doesn't really look like a winnable year? who agree on a direction and have the wherewithal. i don't see mitt romney as the nomin nominee. her charisma, hr caniness, she

really has the strong platform there's a good chance they'll go for the wilderness candidate, but i want to hear what michael has to say. >> suppose you're running for governor of pennsylvania next year and you're john corbett, and you want somebody to make some noise for you, would you bring her in? >> it's an easy one. what do you is bring her into washington and have the event there. >> they loved hr there. that's part of that 20%, 21s%. as you know, chris, that's not the area that sways elections in my strait nor across the country. >> let's move on to what we watched today. joan, you