>> that alfre woodard is alive and radiant and dynamic in the morning on tv, and the tickets are still available for the radio city musical nelson mandela concert this saturday night. >> yeah, that will be amazing. the audio book is number one on amazon. the website, teach me again. >> can you go to amazon or itunes, and you can also go to the website. >> did you learn anything? >> yes, i did, when you asked me about when somebody was young how do you explain who nelson mandela was and i learned it's important to pass on the story. >> and thank you for joining us. have a great weekend. joe and i will be on the radio. if it's way too early, what time is it? >> it's "morning joe." >> are you sure?

>> and it's time for the "morning meeting" with the great dylan ratigan. take it away. >> hi, peggy. nice to see you. i have a meeting that starts otherwise i would come over and chat. this is the final "morning meeting" at the week. health care, jobs, stimulus, the president back from overseas, and he and his staff is hitting hard. and they are saying get it done, boss. get it done. moms used to say be a doctor, a lawyer, maybe grow up to be a big time ceo. not any more. a revealing new poll shows how we do job, and the indictments there in the categories, and journalists not too far behind. three lawmakers involved with a couple things.

they all had affairs, and why are they hanging out at a christian fraternity in washington, d.c. cheating on their wives? and bernie madoff goes to jail, and we talked about this yesterday. we talk about the lus fur affect. madoff actually exhibits completely detached behavior from all other people. evil. how does it happen? we have a man that knows how it happens. it's 9:00 a.m., and it's time to get to the meeting. good morning to you. let's start with the president striking back across the board again, whether it's the health care platform or the stimulus platform, the criticism of the lack of job creation in the economy. there is lots of vulnerability, the rhetoric is strong and the

price tags are too high, and the results are mercky at this point. and savannah guthrie we have to talk about this. >> reporter: you can see the white house acknowledging that their most effective advocate is the president himself. last week we were overseas and the white house was battered on the stimulus and health care and things were not getting done and the stimulus would not be affective in terms of the creating jobs, and the president has been out every single day this week with the intensity, and almost sounding like the old candidate as he pushed for health care in new jersey. listen to this. >> we have talked and talked and talked about fixing health care for decades, and we have finally reach add point where inaction is no longer an option, and the choice of a reform is no longer more than to defend the status

quo, and i will not defend the status quo. we will change health care reform! >> reporter: and two can play. the republicans dialing up their rhetoric. listen to what congressman have said in the last week about the health care reform. >> they will save money by rationing care, and getting you in a long line, and people die when they are in line. >> 1 in 5 people have to die because they went to socialized medicine. >> this program of government option is being touted as being the saver of allowing people to have quality health care at an affordable price is going to kill people. >> reporter: the lines are drawn. this is getting intense on capitol hill. at the house and the senate, work to meet the president's deadline of passing health care reform before the august recess, and the notion being they can

get together after the recess and have a conference committee and have health care reform passed by law. the senate is putting the pressure on. because if you don't act quickly, they want to get health care reform done in the first year, otherwise they are afraid it won't get done at all. >> savannah, i want to bring in the morning meeting panelist for the day. jonathan kaye part back, and he is a big time guy. and henry with us from the business insight. and steven a. smith, back with much applause and a welcome return to you. have you been great so far. i will begin with you, jonathan. not just on health care, but whether it's stimulus or whatever it is, it appears obama has -- forget it, it appears. he has upped the rhetoric. he says we are doing this. you can criticize what you want to criticize, but we are not

here to play footsies, but we are here to make policy. >> yeah, he is trying to makeup for what could be viewed as lost time being overseas and doing the other job of the president, which is to, you know, talk foreign policy and extend, you know, american power abroad. but when he was away, his domestic agenda sort of almost ground to a halt, and people were coming in and attacking it. they lost ground. >> we know the president is one of the most effective persuasive speakers, and communicators, period, that we have seen as a president in this country ever and certainly in a long time. if he goes away and the whole thing goes to hell, he cannot be happy about that? >> yeah, we have recognized the obama is the best salesman for the obama administration and the

policies it is trying to push and the goals he is trying to achieve. that's why we saw -- do you remember during the stimulus debate, he was staying in washington, and doing these meetings in cabinet room, and very washington sen trick events. he left washington, and went to indiana, and he found his voice again and really ramped up the rhetoric and helped push it over the goal line. that's what we are seeing in terms of the health care. he wants to get this done. because as he said from the beginning, he used health care, not just -- not only about covering the uninsured, but he views this as one of the strong pillers of economic recovery in the united states. >> yeah, you relieve corporation, small and large of a tremendous expense load, and you reduce hugely inefficient -- you fix a hugely inefficient

program in this country, and i am concerned we will write a check for more people instead of what the president directs us to, but they are not delivering it in the political theater. >> yeah, i think that's true. it's appalling in this country that we have so many people uninsured. have you to deal with that. you listen to the republican response. where are the answers? you are going to complain that people die? figure out a solution. it's socking it to people that don't deserve it. >> yeah, you said it there. it's horrible for small businesses. the more i hear barack obama speak, the more suspicious i get. he talked about it, like he has to sell it. it will help that you and your administration reads this bill, as opposed to going to nancy pelosi, and mandating that it be

under $800 billion and take care of the middle class, and instead you have senators signing the bill into law and they have not read it and being forced to sign it. these are things that are flat out inept. the more he seems to be out on front street, the more it says to me that he is the overseer, and this is what he wants. ? terms of the execution, he is leaving it up to the nancy pelosi's of the world. and i am wondering whether their agenda is what is best or whether it's political. that's what disturbs me and makes me more suspicious. the more he speaks the more suspicious i get about how solid the plan is. >> we are going to come back to health care and all of the rest of this. i want to move o. and staying with obama speaking to the naacp last night, we will look at that and other breaking news this morning. we will start with breaking news out of indonesia. there have been bombings at a couple hotels wounding several

americans among the hurt. and suicide bombers were staying as guest at the marriott. and then witnesses say police fired tear-gas on behalf of the opposition leader. protesters gathered to urge mahmoud ahmadinejads to resign. pope benedict is having surgery for a broken wrist. the doctors operated to realign the broken bone fragments in his arm. the 82-year-old celebrated mass and had breakfast before he decided, okay, it's time to go to the hospital and have my wrist looked at. and then president obama told a mostly black crowd that prenlg diss still exists.

>> nobody has written your destiny for you, and your destiny is no your hands, you cannot forget that. that's what we have to teach all of our children. no excuses. >> we have to accept our responsibility to help them learn. and that means putting away the xbox, and putting our kids to bed at a reasonable hour, and it means attending those parent/teacher conferences, and reading to our children, and helping them with their homework. >> a firy speech arousing the applause, and he said education is overcoming the racial barriers, dylan. >> that's the beginning of what i think is the beginning of an interesting conversation. if you go to education for a basis, and we have so many flaws in our country that can be rectified by better educational

systems. and obama recognizes that. that's where we should focus our conversation here. steven, i will start with you. compelling rhetoric from the president. and a compelling point of view. but to the conversation that we had at this meeting a couple weeks ago, is it easy for him to say, in other words -- >> it's easier for him to say, because when he is addressing the african-american community, he can say most things that most cannot say. i will tell you that right now. >> what he was talking about, because you have a lot of people within the african-american community that were a bit turned off because they felt like when he spoke to anybody else, he talked philosophy, and idealogy. when he is talking to the african-american community, he addressed behavior. he had people turned off by that. but in reality, he was right to do so because these things are needed to be addressed in our

community. he touched on all things. he talked about his agenda, and what he wanted to accomplish, and he talked about how we as african-americans have to assist him in basically reaching that point. i thought he hit the home run on all of the points. he was right on point. there was no denying that. it was a sensational speech. it was something that we all needed to hear. >> how do you address it, from an economic standpoint, any minority community, and i don't care what it is, in an economy that either doesn't include them or demands a higher level of education for participation, that minority community is not reaching. go ahead? >> you asked the question about why can't somebody else say what he said to the african-american community. right here in new york city, the unemployment rate is nearly 15% as opposed to in a white community where it's over 8%. and four times more african-americans are unemployed

right now in the city of new york. >> yeah, i know. >> when you look at that from a systemic perspective -- >> bingo. >> and the african-american community says it's not just us, we are fighting an uphill battle. so when the president steps up and says listen, i understand how we are going on, and this is how we need to address it. >> let's be honest about it, and we will talk about the other side of the street. >> america cannot tell us to be honest without us telling each other that. >> yeah, and we are going to come back and continue the conversation on race in america, and education in america. we also -- and we are also going to talk robots in america, as they are taking our jobs and saving our lives? the answer is probably both. and we will get into the economics of a lot of things

later. we will take a break. we are going to have a guy that will teach you to become the devil if you want. we'll be right back after this. . everything you need to strengthen teeth, help prevent cavities, and kill germs. introducing 6 in 1 listene® total care. the most complete mouthwash. and to complete your oral care routine add superior plaque removal in places that are hard to reach with reach® toothbrush and floss. get the complete routine, reach® and listerine tot care.

i just want fewer pills and relief that lasts all day. take 2 extra strength tylenol every 4 to 6 hours?!? taking 8 pills a day... and if i take it for 10 days -- that's 80 pills. just 2 aleve can last all day. perfect. choose aleve and you can be taking four times... fewer pills than extra strength tylenol. just 2 aleve have the strength to relieve arthritis pain all day. an eleven sixteenths wrench over here? here you go. eleven sixteenths... (announcer) from designing some of the world's cleanest and most fuel-efficient jet engines... to building more wind turbines than anyone in the country...

the people of ge are working together... creating innovation today for america's tomorrow. thanks!

i cannot aspire to be lebron or little wayne. i want them aspiring to be doctors and engineers, and not just rappers. i want them aspiring to be a supreme court justice, and aspiring to be the president of the united states of america. >> picking up with the race conversation. you have the experience in the athletic community, working at

espn, stephen, and you have seen black men reach tremendous economic success, and still being deprived of valuable education along the way, and in some cases because of the athleti athletics, and some looking the other way -- >> let's be cleared. they were not denied, but they elected not to pursue it. i am not knocking them, because the objective to getting the education even the president did not touch on it, let's be clear, it's to be paid. you get an education to get a career to pay you handsomely, and that's what we pursue. and he is talking about the importance of focusing on the education. and it's elevating your life, and your quality of life, and that of your children, and your grandchildren. >> yeah, he struck a great balance of yet it's harder, and it is. if you sit there and deny that, it sounds ridiculous. on the other hand, it's your

personal responsibility. have you to make it happen. he is a shining example of how to do that. >> jonathan, you are still there? >> yeah, i am still here. >> you look at the schools available, the public schools relative to the schools available in wealthier, whiter communities in america, if you look at education as the root cause of differents in society, and you can argue my high pautices is redirected, but there are things that perpetuate this? >> look at what the former boss, mayor bloomberg is doing to get control of schools. the same is happening in washington, d.c. the mayors are putting in very tough school commissioners for a

lack of a better word, and they want to talk about not the well-being and the perks and the benefits of the teachers, but on the well-being and educational future of the children, of their customers. >> yeah, who they are teaching? >> yeah. dylan, another point on, you know, the president's speech last night at the naacp. the clip you played coming in from the break, and you notice not everybody can be lebron and little wayne, there was enormous applause for that line. and enormous applause for many things that he said. as stephen pointed out, the president has been criticized for lecturing the black community for things that it does or doesn't do. but those people in that room are the people who are turning off their television sets, and have been saying for decades to their children, and to anybody that would listen, that the

black community needs to focus on education, on, you know, responsibility, and trying to get that broader message up. they have not been able to, because the larger culture has been about, you know, go and become a rapper, and go and become a ball player, and not look at the fundamental things people need to do to get beyond the sort of narrow casting of african-americans? >> and jonathan, one of the problems he was alluding to, when he talked about no excuses, dylan, what he was eluding to, coupled with what jonathan just explained, you have people in the african-american community that adopt a victim's mentalitm, and it's we cannot get ahead, and it's not that they are wraung, it's just that it's fruitle fruitless. you cannot -- >> the beauty of that, and the beauty of that, if you accept that, then you are not

responsible. there is a human tendency. i am -- i have a minor example. i am the child of a single parent and my dad was an alcoholic. and i could sit there and say, e my dad was a drunk -- >> yeah, we can say that we recognize -- forget the individual, the system has no compassion. it doesn't care. why waste your energy focusing on something that will not get you anywhere? >> stephen, to your point, what you said earlier, for those people who have the victim mentality and say the system is out to get me and the system -- and they are holding me back, the president of the united states is the visible manife manifestation of how wrong that mindset is. he was somebody who was raised by his mother, a by racial

person that had none of the advantages of a lot of people that we cover and know had, could rise to becoming the leader of the free world. what is stopping somebody in an inner city neighborhood or rural neighborhood from reaching those same heights. >> of any color, by the way. there is a poor white kid and chinese kid and a black kid somewhere in the city that could create -- >> yeah, and i have to go to a commercial, too. her yelling in my year. >> isn't that white america voted for him? because you wanted to send a message. you can be anything. >> yeah, done. and that's why we are having this meeting. stephen is sorry for holding up the commercial break. we are back with they said what? we criticize our congress a lot.

this is some of their own words. >> during these hearings, we are going to do that crack cocaine thing that you and i talked about before. we know why we're here. to stand behind all who serve. ♪ to deliver the technologies... vital to freedom. ♪ to help carry hope to those in need. ♪

around the globe, the people of boeing... are working together -- for what matters most. that's why we're here. ♪ ♪ mom: i can't go to class with him. mom vo: i can't do his history report for him. mom vo: or show the teachers how curious he is. that's his job. mom vo: my job is to give him everything he needs to succeed, while staying within a budget. mom: that's why i go to walmart. son: and that's how the constitution helped shape america... mom: i love my job. vo: find all the brands those other stores have but for low walmart prices, like dell, hp and toshiba. vo: save money. live better. walmart.

hello, everybody. i am contessa brewer. who do you want to be when you grow up? a congressman, and a journalists? big business stinks. they rank worse than congress. 41% say they have very little or no confidence in ceos. and 38% for congress. banks, congress, media? >> the only thing worse is being a cable tv host. i will say that unless you think i am throwing stones.

what do you think is the defining failure in management in america of any company whatsoever that was once one of the most aspired jobs in the world, where now people are embarrassed to admit they are ceos. >> gross incompetentance. all you have to worry about is to make sure you can handle a downturn if it comes. we have lost huge wall street firms, and the ceos have not owned up and said yeah, i guess we bet the farm and we lost. and that's incompetent. we had to go in and bail them out. no wonder people are mad. >> sit incompetent or corrupt? i look at them as immoral. they made sure they got paid, and it was off the backs of

pretty much the american public. which one is it. is it inepttood or corruption? >> correct me if i am wrong, that when you come to understand how aig ran their business, they under wrote the entire credit bubble, and goldman sachs realized that first, and instead of raising a hand and going and saying aig is selling fraudulent insurance, and then they said let me in on it, and it goes to morality. >> there are instances of corruption, but in a boom like this, what you find is everybody is running fast. if you don't run fast and start doing the same thing, you will get fired, because your share holders will say why am i going to share my money with you? >> and if you are a ceo of fannie mae and freddie mac and

you walk away with $90 million, is it really inept? is it whatever you want to call it because you don't know what you are doing? or are you saying i am walking away with $90 million, and i think i will be just fine. >> it's screwed up. you have the incentive to swing for the fence, and you take it off the zero, and the firm can go to zero and you still have the money. what you have to do is say over ten years, the full cycle we will base your pay on what happens. >> yeah, and this is a short -- intended to be a short conversation, so i won't carry on about it too much more, but what about enforcing a system on all private industries that they are not allowed to create risks, they are forced for the taxpayer to bail them out. the failures only need to punish the business.

it's when our politicians allow something to be created such that they can compromise the western entire economy. >> dylan sounds like he is blaming the government more than the ceos. >> yeah, the government, and the regulators, and it doesn't matter. i think part of the problems we are going to have over the next few years is because we are still in denial about citigroup. it's a zombie bank. and we are keeping it alive on life support. >> yeah, we are perpetuating a broken model, instead of letting it be broken and getting together and rebuilding it. for as good as barack obama's rhetoric s. i have yet to see him or his treasury secretary step in. >> yeah, it's the republican argument we need to step in and stop spending the money. >> yeah, why do we want to pump billions into a corrupt system where it blows out the back? it's like sending a bunch of

money to russia, which as far as i can tell you we don't want to do that either. and i will probably not be here on monday. but any way. and for all the criticism of congress, i thought we could show you how they carry themselves at a supreme court confirmation hearing. and we solved the banking problem. the bankers are not worried about anybody paying the money back, and perhaps the internet can solve that problem for them. we will have that conversation coming up. r seen. so i've come to this ring to see who's faster... on the internet. i'll be using the 3g at&t laptopconnect card. he won't. so i can browse the web faster, email business plans faster. all on the go. i'm bill kurtis and i'm faster than floyd mayweather. (announcer) switch to the nation's fastest 3g network and get the at&t laptopconnect card for free. come on in.

you're invited to the chevy open house. where getting a new vehicle is easy. because the price on the tag is the price you pay. you'll find low straightforward pricing on remaining '08 and '09 models. including eight that offer an epa-estimated 30 miles per gallon highway or better. now get an '09 cobalt xfe with an epa estimated 37 mpg hwy for under 15 thousand after all offers.

all right. welcome back. a quarter of the way here through the meeting. the president is putting the hammer down as we talk about pushing back on the health care and also the stimulus package on jobs. but are some democrats shooting the messenger. we will get into nancy pelosi's

wanting them to recalculate the numbers. and the lucifer effect, speaking of numbers. and bernie madoff now in jail. his actions are described as extraordinarily evil. we have a man, contessa, that can explain why the heart of evil begins and how it gets worse. it's not pretty. and robots. cute creations or something sinister? they steal our jobs and save lives when we go to war. what do you think henry? sinister or saver? >> saver. >> we'll see. and then the numbers, a better week for the financial markets than a bad one. it's 9:30 out on the east coast, and 6:30 in the west. and we will begin with the friends in congress, and how they carried themselves on the

sonia sotomayor confirmation hearings. and we have so many problems with finance, and health care, and defense, and you will see when you watch this. >> let's play what we found on se sonia sotomayor, right? she has been in congress. let's play it. >> senator leahy and i are talking during the hearings, we will do the crack cocaine that you and i talked about before. >> good morning, justice. >> in 10 or 15 years, judicial pay, we may not be able to pay your salary. >> you have heard all of these charges and counter charges, the wise latina and on and on. >> the wise latina comment you made. >> a wise old man should reach the same decision as a wise old woman. >> one of them was not wise.

>> you voted to stay with the decision of the circuit. in fact, your vote was the key vote. had you voted with a judge kabroni sichlt -- >> if i go home, and get a gun and shoot you, that may not be legal under new york law because you would have alternative ways -- >> you would have a lot of explaining to do. >> what was the one case in perry mason -- >> i wish i remembered the name of the episode and i don't, and there was one case where his client was guilty. >> you don't remember the case? >> i know i should remember the name of it. i have not looked at the

episode. >> didn't the white house prepare you for that? >> i just like it that i had to toss it to you to get to that. >> sometimes when we need to play sound, you don't do the sound. i am just here to help you. >> it's one of the pleasures, being a 2 1/2-week-old show, i might go to you, and say henry, roll sound bytes, and -- there is a difference of hosting a show and having a system. we are still finding our way. and speaking of finding our way, we are joined by henry blodget, and steven a. smith is here, and jonathan, you are along. contessa, you are here. we solved racism in america, and we explained the white house,

and we can call the meeting off and don't need to come back. i want to talk about banking. and the basic principle about the banks, they lend money and make money by their ability to determine who can pay the money back or not. and it has become i don't care who can pay it back. as a result, who cares. banking breaks down. and the taxpayer has the hot potato. and who has the money? the guy running the banks. and the internet has efficiency. is that a fair character? >> yeah, that's fair character. >> i have a lovely guess by the name is chris larson. and he founded an online bank, which is a lending marketplace. and what chris is basically trying to do is listen, i will

be the middleman, and take a smaller piece, and you have invest your money with me and i will loan it out and get it 7% back. and it's like ebay for loans. and he has meaningful concerns about this. before we get into the exact conversation, address your concerns with mr. larson? >> i worry about hackers getting into the system and getting ahold of your personal information. you feel more comfortable when you think there is somebody on the other line or somebody that you can reach out and touch as opposed to going to the internet and throwing yourself in cyber space. and those are the kinds of thing that are immediate concerns that come to mind. it might sound silly. it's a comfort level. >> chris, how do you -- how do you address that, and also how do you address your responsibility in vetting those -- if i give you $100 as an investor with prosper.com,

how do i know that money is being lent out so that there is standard of protecting me from getting my money stolen? >> great question. thank you for having us this morning. we appreciate it. on the security end, on the privacy issues, obviously, absolutely it's key when you talk about financial services. i think that we have been at online banking now for well over 10 years, and the truth is, i think we now have state of the art technologies to catch fraud, to protect privacy, and you know we look at our fraud rate and it's low. online banking has reached a stage now, where we all rely on it. it works. this is taking it to the next level of having people directly control how sort of banking -- how money gets from people who have it to people that need it. and we think this is the next evolution to rewire finance. it's kind of exactly the time that we need it in the country with the banking crisis. >> i could not agree with you

more. henry, go ahead. >> there is absolutely a place for this. this is microlending. the way prosper works, and it's peer to peer. and you say i will look at your profile, and i am the banker. >> i go to prosper, and i am dylan ratigan, and i am like i have a new cable tv show, and i don't know if they are going to handle it or not, and i do have the contract, and i put that information up online and you or steven and contessa read my qualifiations, is that right? >> yeah, the borrareorrower goe prosper, and we pull their credit and validate there are a real person. and then key some rummary data up on the site. >> like what data? >> what are you going to use the

loan for. and your score range. we give a credit rating. some other summary data that other lenders can see, how many other credit cards you have and that sort of thing. >> what is your responsibility if the person turns out tube bad risk? what if they turn out not to be an "a "? >> as we have had that problem, if you have not noticed, lately. >> pulling the credit and making sure that people are who they say they are. it's different than ebay. we service the loans. we are involved in collections on the loan if it goes bad. the risk and return does go directly to the lenders, the americans who -- you can have as little as $25 to lend to somebody. >> here is the problem. it sounds like a bank. and listen to me. but america doesn't trust the banks. so basically, by coming forward and basically imitating a bank,

and just an online bank, i don't see anything that he is saying that would entice you and encourage you to trust him any more than you would trust a bank? >> i have a question. >> chris, i have a question for you. if this is supposed to be like ebay for banking. do you have to join prosper.com in order to seize information on there. if i could go to ebay right now, i could peruse coffee tables, and -- >> don't tell us about what you are doing this afternoon, okay. >> if you go to prosper.com, and you say i want to go and get a $1,000 loan, can anybody go on there and see what i am looking to borrow money for? >> there are two levels. you can go there and show all the listings shown transparently. we know that people keep who they are private. we know that.

and as a lender, you can see additional credit attributes and the ratings and that sort of thing. there are certain levels. we do believe in transparency, and that's key. and banking, yeah, america needs banking and we all need banking, and we don't need banks. and the idea that i give money and make little on it, and i don't know what happens to it, and the banks are making a big spread today. and what we are doing is saying the technology is there, and every american can be their own banker, and they can decide who gets credit, and i can back people in my community and make the money on it. i can do well by doing good. i think that's very empowering. i think that's exactly what we need now, to fix this crisis. people need to participate directly. >> and i decide if i want to give henry $1,000, and you prosper, and facilitate that transaction, and you create credit for me. >> the problem is you may not

get a lot. >> you were being asked to get a banker. and bankers lose a lot. have you to have the best spread all over the place. >> and so you are much better to give $1,000 to 10 people, or $100 to whatever. >> yeah. absolutely. >> you can invest as little as $25. you are right. if you have $2,500, you can make 100 loans to 100 people. and that's diversified. that's what the secure tauization banks do. we think it's where the future is going. if you have to redo the whole system in 2009, this may be the way you do it. >> has anybody from the banking city tried to kill you? i have russians coming for me this weekend, and they are looking for the harry hung

garens. >> we are back on obama in just a second. when congress is not happy with the numbers from the budget office, should the budget office change the numbers to make congress happy. and bill carins, and we will see who the other amateur will be to have a conversation. and lucifer effect. bernie madoff evil in the minds of many people. how can people do so much damage to strangers and sleep at night? ♪ ♪ i got troubles, oh ♪ but not today ♪ 'cause they're gonna wash away ♪ ♪ they're gonna wash away

♪ ♪ ♪ they're gonna wash away ♪ this old heart ♪ gonna take them away [ quacks ] as we get older, our bodies become... less able to absorb calcium. he recommended citracal. it's a different kind of calcium. calcium citrate. with vitamin d... for unsurpassed absorption, to nourish your bones. including who i trust to look after my money. ♪ (woman) the dust might be settling... that's great, but i'm not. ♪ (second man) i guess i'm just done with doing nothing, you know? ♪ (third man) oh, i'm not thinking about moving my money. i am moving it. tdd# 1-800-345-2550

an eleven sixteenths wrench over here? here you go. eleven sixteenths... (announcer) from designing some of the world's cleanest and most fuel-efficient jet engines... to building more wind turbines than anyone in the country... the people of ge are working together... creating innovation today for america's tomorrow. thanks! no problem!

thanks! right now, all over the country, discover card customers are getting 5% cashback bonus at the pump. now more than ever, it pays to discover. welcome back, contessa. what is going on? >> it may be a couple more weeks

before we hear how michael jackson died. they are looking at the sued nims that jackson used to get his drugs. fbi is investigating a carnival cruise ship murder. a woman was on a five-day cruise. officials say they held them until the boat docked yesterday morning. check this out. marietta, georgia. police officer braved the flames of a fiery accident to pull a woman to safety. family of four traveling in the van suddenly burst into flames. two people got out and officer helped rescue the other two. dylan, back to you. >> we did this once. i think the first week we did the show. one of the most fun things i

think i've ever been able to do on tv. >> the ratings were off the shatters. >> we're going to call it the weather pro am. imagine can you get a big-time weatherman like bill karins and you could interview him and compete with him in a pro amateur type environment to figure out what the weather is going to be. the floor is yours. the forecast for the weather for the weekend. >> let's start with this. how do you explain the summer so tar far? >> this summer? sporadic to say the least. it was raining like cats and dogs and like seattle in new york and now the sun is shining. >> that is what we were doing. >> i can tell you why that is. i was at the last pro am and i learned something, stephen. the jet stream was doing this. >> over the great lakes. >> see that dip? as a result it was a basket of rain and sun everywhere else. this is what we were dealing with a month ago. >> the only thing that has

changed we're getting rid of the rain for the most part. it's not too similar but we're going to bring it back up niagara falls and allow chicago to see coolest two days in 28 years. chicago! >> you say chicago? >> did you just say the coolest? >> chicago is only 68 today and 70 tomorrow in the middle of july. that is the high temperature. have you been to chicago in the summer? >> that's believable. i need you to tell me something that is unpredictable and i don't know. everybody knows chicago is usually cold. >> but not in the summer. here is something you didn't know. >> cold. >> nooaa came out yesterday. >> who is that? >> our government. they came out yesterday and said june 2nd, warmest month on record throughout the whole world going back to 1880. remember how it was cool everywhere else? >> why is that? >> the oceans are warm and may

have to do with global warming and the atmosphere being warmer. >> it's warm in the ocean, i got that. i'm going to take control of the situation here. we have cold here and jet stream here. what is going on in the northeast this weekend? sunshine? >> average. it will be okay. a little rainy starting out saturday. rest of the weekend will be okay. >> how do you know this? >> there is probably about eight different computers that tell us what to do and we kind of look at it and try to decide which is right. that's what we're trade on. >> if you have eight different computers and use the eight to tell you you're right, that means you don't have faith in basically in about seven of them because you're only going to pick one, right? >> you kind of do an average and figure out what's best. you got to figure out what is best. that's what we're trained to do. >> how about the rest of the country? >> i got to show you what happened yesterday. impressive hail video. the big storms yesterday. that will be kicking through the southeast with the storms. there is the impressive hail we had yesterday.

we did have some of those storms. everything out west is hot and dry. dallas nine straight days of a hundred-degree heat today and only 98 today. >> that's it. >> there is your weather for weekend. >> that is my weather for the weekend? >> you're good. we're going to work with you. >> i need help! i can't get over the eight different computers. >> we got an internship whole summer. >> we will make you a weather intern after the meeting." competition is good. like the business world. >> all right. we'll take a break and back on obama. the fight with the budget office. robots, are they good or evil? and evil, where does it come from? working our way into the second hour. of the last meeting of the week. thunderstorms in the south and hot in the west and partly cloudy in the east and cold as all get out in chicago! 100 potato chips...

or 100 pringles. both cost the same, but only the new pringles super stack can makes everything pop. the choice is yours. 100 of these... or 100 pringles. same cost, but a lot more fun. everything pops with the new pringles super stack can. to redefine air travel for a new generation. to ensure our forces are safer and stronger. to take the world we share to tomorrow and beyond. announcer: around the globe, the people of boeing are working together-- to make a difference.

that's why we're here.

welcome back. we will take a moment. when we come back we will saw about the sea street gentlemen's club. like a christian fraternity for congressman who apparently like to cheat on their wives. we're going to do that and the lucifer effect. there is the club members and the lucifer effect. bernie madoff is done and gone but how can you do so much damage to so many people that you don't know and sleep so well at night? not that we know he was sleeping well at night. where does evil come from and

can it be built in good people? someone who argues, yes, indeed, it can. that conversation in the second hour of the meeting coming up. ♪ tis pain relievers -- i just want fewer pills and relief that lasts all day. take 2 extra strength tylenol every 4 to 6 hours?!? taking 8 pills a day... and if i take it for 10 days -- that's 80 pills. just 2 aleve can last all day. perfect. choose aleve and you can be taking four times... fewer pills than extra strength tylenol. just 2 aleve have the strength to relieve arthritis pain all day.

towels, sheets and then there was the stuff he wanted... like a new microwave. and because of walmart's unbeatable prices, we were able to get it all. ...and then some. set them up for success-- for less.

save money. live better. walmart. car insurance company in the nation. but, it's not like we're kicking back, now, havin' a cuppa tea. gecko vo: takes lots of sweat to become that big. gecko vo: 'course, geckos don't literally sweat... it's just not our thing... gecko vo: ...but i do work hard, mind you. gecko vo: first rule of "hard work equals success." gecko vo: that's why geico is consistently rated excellent or better in terms of financial strength. gecko vo: second rule: "don't steal a coworker's egg salad, 'specially if it's marked "the gecko." come on people.

welcome back to the "morning meeting." nice to see you. before i get to "the agenda." you can see this. look at that. do you see that? this is mid-town manhattan is behind us. a camera on 30 rock. look at them! look at it! there are giant bugs on the top of the building! you can't -- there it is! can you see him? he only does it when i'm not looking. anyway, they're not bugs. wait! they're not here. they are across the camera on top of the building. it gives you the real new york experience where, again, grand, beautiful, glamorous, towering pillars of greatness and insect

life. anyway. there it is! here we go. congress -- we're going back to the meeting now. ignore the bugs. congress as we know interwriting checks and intercreating plans, they're not that into creating efficiency and dealing with re-designing systems that have failed us. blaming the messenger when it comes to the budget office. new scandal on c-street in washington, d.c. another christian resident accused of sleeping around. at what point will the republicans give up the moral high ground? it seems to have been taken from them whether they like it or not by their own actions. what makes them seemingly good people turn evil. we are looking at the lucifer effect, whether it's bernie madoff, in our prison system, let alone, overseas. how does this happen? the reality more folks are more

vulnerable to this type of behavior than any of us would like to think. then robots. they do everything from cleaning your house and some can flip pancakes. i'm told we'll have full-on artificial intelligence within the next four or five years. robots will take your job but they will also save you from a terrorist. do we love them or hate them? savior or satan for the robots? i'm on satan thing because of the lucifer and the bugs. it's 10:00 a.m. let's get back to work and begin with the president. the president is hammering this health care plan. the krevenl budget office is throwing a roadblock that the house has put forward. the cbo saying current reform bills will not cut costs as has been argued. that it will, in fact, raise them. so it's one thing to say, listen, we're going to have health care for everybody. that is an incredibly important, in my opinion, and valuable conversation, but to have that

conversation without acknowledging the need to restructure the system and just writing a check may not be the best way forward. the cbo showing you the data to back up that point of view. savannah guthrie is live at a story wanting to shoot the messenger. what is going on down there? >> temperatures are getting a little hot on the hill. as you mentioned, the director of the congressional budget office which is widely respected reported to be independent and bean counters threw cold water on the proposals floating around the house version and senate version. he said yesterday in testimony that not only would they not control health care costs over the long term, that these proposals might create health care costs. it is hard to overstate just how deadly those kind of headlines are. the whole rational, underline the whole pitch that the president makes nearly every day now is we've got to control health care spending. for the cbo director to come out and say this was a deep hit to

the reform efforts on the hill. so we heard some snarky remarks from the senate majority leader and house speaker nancy pelosi. they don't have the head for the cbo office, but they are saying, first, they haven't looked at the house proposal closely yet. it's too early. we haven't seen what senate finance does and they have a big part of financing this whole proposal so it's really an incomplete picket. here is what house minority leader steny hoir said about this this morning. >> the president said the present cost curve is not sustainable. we have to bring it down. i think we have to look very carefully at cbo's analysis and make such adjustments as are necessary to capture that objective. >> so the health care reform efforts continue. the house is marking up its version of the bill. it already passed through one committee and senate finances where all of the action is, all of the suspense, senator baucus leading that committee had said maybe we would have something by the end of the week but it's not

happening. we're going into next week. the deadline bearing down on the house and senate to get something done. >> the conversation will come back to, one, can you get coverage for 37 million, 40 million, whatever it is, and what is the cost for that? henie blage and jonathan capehart and stephen a. smith back in the conversation. it seems a culture not just with the health care conversation, jonathan, but we're seeing with the secretary of defense and spending there. we see it with the bank bailouts and spending there, where the culture is fix the problem at any cost, because if we can go to the people with a so-called solution, a banking solution, a health care solution, a defense solution, but that solution basically is constructed on the bankruptcy of every future american, or the currency or whatever it is, i'm not saying every plan does that, but what i'm saying there seems to be very little conversation about the corruption that stephen a. smith worries about, about the

mismanagement that henie talks about and everybody wants to go to the headline, we've covered everybody and saved the banks, whatever it may be. >> remember, it's sort of the atmosphere and the mindset of, from when we hit this deep financial economic crisis. something had to be done. i think the option of doing nothing -- >> no question. i'm talking culturally. >> then you move into obama's inaugurated and he has these -- he has these priorities and these goals. as i said in the first half of the meeting, for him doing something about health care, bringing about health care reform is a major underpinning of his financial recovery plan for the united states. and so, you know, if it's going to take a trillion dollars or a trillion five he wants to go for it. but the problem is -- i think the american people have seen money, bags and bags of money thrown at so many problems that they're starting to get skittish and understandably so. but where exactly is this

moaning goib to going to come from to pay for all of these things? you throw on top of it all of the talk now about the sur charges on high income earners and people get nervous about, you know, is the problem we're trying to solve going make things worse? >> people look and say we spend more on health care than anybody in the world and, yet, we rank 37th. we're with costa rica. it's not about the spend. i think stephen would agree with me on this, as would henry, if i come to you and say, listen, give me the money, i'll do this, you want to know i'm going to do it well, not that i'm going to take the money and blow 90 of the hundred dollars you give me at the candy store and give me a 10 dollar product that i charge a hundred bucks for. >> not only that, look at massachusetts. it hasn't been very good. you know? >> they can't afford it. >> they can't afford it. when you consider the money that is being spent right now, that barack obama is proposing being spent that you bring into

account the ineffectiveness of congress and everybody else involved, then you talk about the money being spent and then there is really no checks and balances. almost as if the 2010 election is coming up. people in congress believe passing this bill will ultimately get them reelected. i all of a sudden bring their real agenda into question. you don't have checks and balances because the democrats have control of the house and senate, what have you. there is nobody to really stop and make the obama administration pause and say, wait a minute. we all want yooverls universal health care and want every american insured but are you going about this the right way? >> stephen, you can't say that there aren't checks and balances. savannah's piece set up the fact that the head of the congressional budget office testified yesterday this is going to be enormously expensive and she was right to say that this was a blow to the obama administration. >> this is going to be expensive. however, failure to address rationing, which i know "the new york times" magazine will

address this weekend, check it out. failure to address doctor/patient abuse and failure to address the fact you still haven't put the patient in charge of their health care, in other words, you're not forcing the decision to -- it's like putting the students first with the teachers to your mike bloomberg analogy from earlier. the system -- it's not about writing a check but creating a system that puts the patient in charge of their own destiny in a way that is more efficient. henry, i know you have thoughts on how to do that. >> i agree with jonathan. i think a check and balance here thank goodness the cbo came out. >> the cbo is the check and balance and say it's too big of a number. we need a new plan. how do you go to dealing with whether it's a rationing conversation and incentive structure? eliot spitzer was here yesterday and basically said, listen, single payer. i hate to say it but the reality is the insurance companies are the problem and doctors and patients want to have this relationship with each other. why do we have to park the wealth inside the insurance companies when the insurance

companies are doing something that we may be able to do much cheaper ourselves inside of the government? that's the real debate we're having. >> certainly single payer to cover, set up a basic health care system. you can have other coverage on top of that. it doesn't have to be tiers. >> a meaningful portion of the american reaction so that praise. he sits back and makes a face at me. what freaks you out when i say that? >> when you say -- when you say, you know what? people can choose. the reality is that if you have a an alternative plan, financed by the government, and it's perceived as being cheaper than everything else, and employers are allowed -- >> to dump all -- >> dump all of their people on the employment that is basically you're circumventing and having -- >> what is wrong with -- >> you are going to national -- we're doing national health care. >> i'm trying to say i want every american insured but i

want to make sure we can afford it and the quality of the health care that presently exists does not discipline. that is the primary objective in all of this. >> jon take than, you were going to say i have to move on? >> i'm done. move on. >> contessa? >> breaking news from indonesia. looking at eight americans along those injured in bombings at a ritz-carlton and marriott in jakarta. the suicide bombings killed eight and injured a total of 50. the state department right now says its confident no americans were killed but, again, they are waiting to identify those who were injured, the americans injured. investigators say that the suicide bombers were staying as guests at the marriott. so far, no group has claimed responsibility. pope benedict xvi is out of italian hospital after undergoing surgery for a broken wrist. he reportedly left smiling. he fell in his vacation home overnight in the italian alps. doctors worked to realign the broken bone fragments in his

arm. he is a 82-year-old pontiff who insisted on celebrating mass and having breakfast before getting the arm checked out. christian lawmakers decided when they went to washington, they should associate with other god-fearing lawmakers. she shared a house like a frat house to christians. actually more like a frat house. the house on "c" street may have as many links to adulterous affairs as christian fellowship. former republican congressman chip pickering accused of having an affair while living in the christian house. his wife is suing saying it ruined their marriage and wrecked his career. john ensign also lived in this notorious house. he knitted an affair in june, you might recall. and senator tom coburn lived there. he reportedly knew about ensign's extramarital activities for some 16 months. then there was governor mark sanford, who in the midst of his love affair with his soul mate,

went to "c" street for so-called counsel. i put that in my own quotation marks. and solace while he was messing around on his wife. >> it looked like a nice house. looks lovely. >> what is it when you get a bunch of guys together? >> here is the thing. let's sort this out once and for all. can we do this? the republican party going back to the early '90s or even before, basically, realized they could accumulate power by presenting themselves with some sort of holier now than they are not able to hang on than the democrats, independents and blacks and jews and whites and i don't care. the mistake the republicans made, in my opinion, was exploiting a false moral high ground as a way to accumulate power at the expense of everybody else and the reality is they had no basis to do it and if they had half a brain, they would give that up and get back on the party of being

against wasteful spending, against taxpayer abuse, against, again, a corrupt government system that basically serves the interests of those who are there as opposed to everybody else. >> it's too late! they lived in their glass house and already thrown stones. >> it's never too late. are you saying the next 100 years, republicans are going to be stuck with the moral high ground that newt gingrich stuck them on? they cannot say we screwed up and we like to sleep around on our wives but you know what? we're also against wasteful spending, we are against health care abuse. there is a open road for sarah palin and others in the conservative party to say, the heck with these infidels and to heck with the nonsense. we will now be the party of fiscal discipline in this country which we have lacked for almost two decades. >> there are conservatives who are trying that route. >> right. >> they're not getting as much

attention as the big loud-mouthed windbags who want to get up on their moral high horse and talks about our nation needs to go back to our founding fathers and the biblical -- but it's not over, because the same people who were up on those moral high horses are -- >> who is on a moral high horse anymore? they are all laying in the dirt. >> but they are still serving and still in congress. >> right. >> as long as they are in congress, the hypocrisy -- >> i get your point. go ahead. >> all i was going to say, let's not be upset about this. this is a beautiful moment. >> what? >> let me tell you why. because guess what? if you're campaigning now, let's deal with the issues. >> thank you. >> elected officials, it is a business. it is about dollars and cents. let's not look to them to have some kind of moral high standing above the rest of us. they are phoneys, hypocrites. we know it. they've been exposed. god bless them!

let's move on and not be hood-winked any longer. >> we can direct ourselves from the hood-winkry. >> the hood-winkry? >> yes. >> if they were important, they would resign and take personal responsibility. i set the bar here and i came in here and i resign. >> eliot spitzer did resign, a democrat, for his affairs. >> but, but, wait, wait, wait! engaging in prostitution with prostitutes is a crime! >> absolutely. he resigned. >> but adultery -- okay, in some states, adultery is a crime, for instance, we know in wisconsin, it's a felony to have adultery. yeah. >> really? >> yes. a lot of states -- >> didn't know that! >> but it's different -- it's different if you're a putting fibula and a crime. >> i think, stephen a. smith, in my opinion hit it on the head. we paid too much attention who is sleeping with hook and

hookers potting gay marriage in general and, as a result, we have been abused by our police stations our politicians on defense resource management and this is our opportunity to take that back. >> dylan, right here in new york is a perfect example why it shouldn't matter. eliot spitzer is gone. look at the state of our new york government. it is a catastrophe. these guys are hanging out at the subway series while there is no governing going on. they accumulate $60 million extra in debt and then have the audacity to try to tax us extra to pay for it! please! >> you need a lot of guys with testosterone in power obviously. >> hey, hey, i didn't say that! >> listen, where is jonathan? just remember who you're dealing with. what is going on here, jonathan? >> well, the point i wanted to make before it got very loud up there in new york. >> i've had with the wise

latina. she is the wise latina. i'm going to be the mad hungarian. >> i think those republicans are not going to get away from sort of demoralizing and hypocritical and holier than thou thing going on until they pull themself away from the conservative wing of their party. in order for a lot of these guys to get to congress, they have to run in primaries. as we know, primaries are ruled by the fringes of either party of the far left and democratic party and far right and the republican party. those folks want people to represent them who are -- >> who are liars. >> who are pure and all and all and all of these other things. >> they are liars. >> yes, you are right, dylan, they are picking liars and you get "c" street the noble mission, you know the secrecy we're talking about? so that people can be in fellowship and talk with one another in sort of -- not a code

of silence, but security, being able to express your feelings and not know or not be concerned that it be exposed is the word i'm looking for. then you take that element and you throw in politicians in washington who might use the lack of exposure as a way to continue on, you know? talk about the things they're doing and now full well it's not going anywhere. and that is what happened with "c" street and sanford and ensign and that chip fellow, i can't remember his name. >> they have to go back to real ideas, real issues. >> they have a wide open path. >> the economy is giving it to them. >> i've never seen a broader party which they refuse to land on which is defend the taxpayer. >> they are a short runway because they spent the last eight years forgetting about all

of that. >> we'll take a break. speaking of blowing your mind, on how the mind of a man like bernie madoff develops, does it start with the intent to screw everybody over or a little at a time until everybody actually gets up screwed over. the lucifer effect. the lucifer effect understanding how good people turn evil from abuses in the prison system, to abuses on wall street. what goes on in the minds of men and women when they exploit and damage and destroy the lives of strangers. the classic flavors of tuscany inspiration for... dinner bell sfx: ping ping ping fancy feast elegant medleys tuscany entrées restaurant inspired dishes with long grain rice and garden greens is it love? or is it fancy feast? but i did. you need to talk to your doctor about aspirin. you need to be your own advocate. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. you take care of your kids,

now it's time to take care of yourself. ♪ finally lovers know no shame ♪ ♪ watching in slow motion ♪ as you turn to me and say ♪ take my breath away (announcer) ge locomotives. customers love them almost as much as we love making them. ♪ my love (announcer) innovation today for america's tomorrow. it was tough news to hear. everything changed. i didn't know what to do. right about then, our doctor mentioned the exelon patch. he said it releases medicine continuously for 24 hours. he said it could help with her cognition which includes things like memory, reasoning,

communicating and understanding. (announcer) the most common side effects of exelon patch are nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. the likelihood and severity of these side effects may increase as the dose increases. patients may experience loss of appetite or weight. patients who weigh less than 110 pounds may experience more side effects. people at risk for stomach ulcers or who take certain other medicine should talk to their doctor because serious stomach problems, such as bleeding may worsen. mom's diagnosis was hard to hear, but there's something i can do. (announcer) visit exelonpatch.com for free caregiving resources.

doing. we're on tv here. are the bugs still here?

i think there are still bugs. what were you just saying, real quick? >> no. we were talking about the republicans. when i said don't campaign on the moral high ground. you know, you can live your life and do whatever you want. just don't campaign on that family value thing because it usually is not going to work in your favor. >> chief way to accumulate power and you're a liar half the time as we're seeing. enough, enough. we will come back and lombardo, the lucifer effect, talk about that. we may be able to turn you evil in this segment if we do our b job. probably not. but they say it can be done with almost anybody. we'll find out out from filly after this.

we know why we're here. to design the future of flight, inside and out. to build tomorrow's technology in amazing ways. and reshape the science of aerospace... forever. around the globe, the people of boeing... are working together -- for the dreams of generations to come. that's why we're here.

the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the power of the force. >> here's johnny!

>> not one generation from poor wise -- >> that was evil right there. when good people turn evil like the good bugs behind us here on 40 rock. bernie madoff comes into the category of evil. how is it you can innicket inflict that damage on your own community and. charities were big participants in that ponzi scheme and, yet, mr. madoff continued for decades down that road. there are others in the financial community and the business community. there are others in the prison system. even though there are others in all systems of our society who basically take to a completely disconnected view of their relationship with all other people. i don't care about henry or steven. i don't care about anybody, as long as i get what i want to have and i will do that even at the expense of their lives, their incomes, their families and their futures. that is how we are defining evil.

stanford university psychologist phillip zimbardo wrote a book on this conversation entitled "the lucifer effect understanding how good people turn evil." some would argue they were good and turned evil is to be called in question. in other words, some people are born evil. before we get to turning good to evil, how do you respond, professor, to the argument that some people are born as bad apples, as bad eggs? >> well, actually, that's a catholic view stemming back from adam and eve. i believe people are born with the potential to be anything, to be good or evil because we have this incredible human brain and within it, this mind, so that anything any human being has ever done becomes imaginable and possible for us. my whole approach, having grown up as a kid in the south bronx ghetto, looking at my kids who were good sieds kids and

suddenly gone wrong, the power of things around us to corrupt us. it's easy to say this is a bad kid and bad guy. bernie madoff, must have some deep-seeded -- whatever. the point is that that's the approach that we have all taken. "we" meaning every society, science, education, religion, the legal system. and what we do is if we're benign, we give them therapy. if we're less benign and put them in prison and execute it and it doesn't change, he will persist. my whole approach, having studied not only in the laboratory and abu great britain and lots of evil around the world we estimated the power of the bad apple -- i'm sorry. we underestimated the power of the bad barrel by focusing only on the bad apple. a guy like bernie madoff doesn't start off as evil. he starts off as somebody who wants to make money. people beg him to take their money.

and over time, let's even say he is a moral guy, he puts hi morality in neutral. it's what lots and lots of people do. you do that with semantic distortion. you're not cheating anybody. you're getting an edge and leg up. you're stifg the competition. dehumanization comes in. he is not cheating from holocaust project of they become clients as in social work as it's a case load so that you lose the human connection. you're not stiffing any person. it's sad. these are people who are always after you, who want -- who are pulling on your -- on your heart strings. and so dehumanization comes? >> i got to ask you, philip, if you are losing the human connection, and you're a human being, what does that make you?

>> no. you never quite aware of it. see, dylan mentioned earlier that it's really a slippery slope for evil. a famous study at yale, a thousand ordinary people, the majority, 60%, delivered what they thought could have been lethal electric shock to someone else. how does anybody do that? they were teachers and the other person was a learner and they were punishing -- >> right. yeah. but, professor, to go back to stephen's question. i think the point he is making, correct me if i'm wrong, if i no longer relate to my world as a human, with human connections, i'm connected -- we're having this conversation. i work with these people. this is my family. what am i? in other words, if we're not connecting with -- if people are not connecting to other people so i that have some interest -- not that i want good or bad for them, but i wouldn't do something to -- i wouldn't drive over him if he was in my way on the way to work as a person and

i'm like i wouldn't drive over a person. >> no. but the critical thing is that process of dehumanization. you think of the other as not your kind or your kin. you think of them as "the other." in the extreme, you began to dehumanize them and think of them as insects. for one to happen, because the hutu government went on the tv and said your house is full of cockroaches. what would you do? you kill them. in the hundred days, the hutu neighbors killed 800,000. >> i get it. >> but it's language. xechl excuse me. >> once i dehumanize you can can do whatever i want to. >> i don't want to get oprah fired or anything, but doesn't it sound like it's just another excuse to explain somebody's behavior? because, again, it's like somebody who commits murder or

does some kind of heinous act and we have some psychologist on the air explaining exactly why this happened. that's what this sounds like to me. >> no, no, not at all. no, no. you're absolutely wrong because it's not excusology. people are responsible and guilty for their action. was i've been trying to do in the lucifer effect and many other psychologists as well, is we are trying to say the mechanisms of good people turn evil. once we understand how and why, we can begin to change it. if you focus on bad people, sure, there are psychopaths, 1% of the population is joined with jeanetgenetic effects. >> "the new york times" had several psychologists say that madoff, in fact, was a sociopath. he had all of the ted bundy characteristics and soverted. that is possible. i think also equally possible it was a slippery slope. it started, well, i can't quite make the numbers this month, i'll move some numbers around.

suddenly it's a year and then five years. you think to yourself i am helping people. they are making a lot of money and i can keep this going indefinitely and maybe i'll get out of it. it just keeps rolling and all of a sudden the whole thing collapses. >> i would believe that if he wasn't living a lifestyle that he was living along the way. >> it was not a single person in enrolle ron but a whole system that got corrupted. let's look at his personality, once he is put in jail, we don't have to think about him. what i'm saying these are basic processes that infiltrate finance and politics. if we don't understand how -- it's not the oprah winfrey issue. it really is we have got to understand what is the process by which any person, any ordinary person first begins to get corrupted. how is the process by which

politicians visit prostitutes and adultery, knowing the consequences. the other big issue most of these people who do evil have a short-term focus. they don't think about the moral consequences of their behavior. they think about getting away with it this time. maybe in your mind, i'm only going to do it once and then once becomes twice and then you're suddenly down that slippery slope. >> i'll come back to my transparency model out here. because the more the visibility there is, particularly in the public theater as to what people are doing, the less likely they are to try to get away with something once. the more we use modern technology, the first time in american history, 21st century technological environment, if they apply to the 19th century government, turning the lights on will scare half the cockroaches out of the building. >> transparency is critical, absolutely. >> professor, thank you and wonderful conversation.

we will certainly you have back. locates of meeting still to be had, specifically on the subject of robots. is unemployment spiking higher? are the robots the problem? outsource than -- and row bobts. where do you draw the line? if you're taking 8 extra-strength tylenol... a day on the days that you have arthritis pain, you could end up taking 4 times the number... of pills compared to aleve. choose aleve and you could start taking fewer pills. just 2 aleve have the strength... to relieve arthris pain all day.

♪ >> directive?

>> as robots do more work that we don't want to do, more people have no work to do at all. the question is can our society adapt quickly as demand of it, as technology makes people not able to click back and forth to hand-held devices but robots will clean your house and build cars and a lot of things people used to do, not to mention the predator drones. the unemployment rate keeps going higher. you can look to the military examples also that are very impressive in terms of their ability to deploy robots and save lives. dan wilson joins the conversation and henry and stephen both still here. i'm going to start with you, henry, on the economies. the efficient theory argument is, listen, if robots can do it, cheaper, better, faster you have to let them do it cheaper, better, faster. the unanswered question is what is everybody going to do when they lose their jobs to robots?

>> well, we don't know yet. but i mean, first of all, the reason we have such huge unemployment has nothing to do with the robots. let's be serious. the economy has collapsed. the idea you can't change the economy because people are going to lose their jobs, then we would all still be farmers. you have to have a dynamic economy. the idea of knowing exactly what people are going to do ten years from now, now, is very hard. we'll see how it evolves, but this country's economy has changed so much in the last 200 years and it will continue to do that. you have to just keep the dynamic flow of capital and education, as you've been talking about, so people are equipped. you have to help them learn new trades. >> what do you think? >> i think robots are changing the economy and it has to happen. so, for instance, let's look at ipods. we have a lot of new people that are actually programming ipod applications and making a lot of money at it and it's a great job for a human being. meanwhile, building the ipods is not something human beings can do in the first place. we wouldn't, frankly, we wouldn't have all of our

technology if we didn't have robots to build it. >> in other words, henry's iphone was built by robots, not by people. programmed by people but built by robots? >> exactly. >> stephen? >> it scares the living daylights out of hee me. first of all, the will smith robots. i saw that movie. i absolutely loved that movie, but you know what? what was the movie about? robots taking over. >> right. >> do you know what i'm saying? then you have a super hero in a human being is will smith trusting them. it's not me. i don't have that kind of athletic ability but i'm cool. i'm cool. those are the things i worry about right there, how much leeway and how much priority do you give and authority do you give to something that is not human. >> it's interesting. american conversation right now is both our familiarity and comfort with the foreign and threatening with the foreign whether a foreign person or foreign race or gender legal alone a foreign object, a robot. and our loss of jobs as an economy because we're going through a massive transition and

robots may nobody not be the cause but could be the solution which jobs may be building robots and programming robots but without education you need smart, educated people to do robot people and not people not going to high school doing robot work. >> robots are the forefront of technology and represent change. >> give me cool things robots can do today that we may not know. >> so robots excel in areas where humans just absolutely can't do the job. for instance, they -- we're afraid of them because they can think. that's what we do! that is what hux human beings are all about. they think faster of us. collision avoidance systems in cars. when you have a wreck, the newer model cars can use radar to determine that based on your velocity, you're going to have a wreck. there is an obstacle, you're going too fast. it knows you're going to wreck. before the wreck happens it's priming the air bags and tightening your restraints and saving your life.

>> i understand that, but off the air -- i want the public to know. off the air, dylan sat there and said to me he has a great -- he has a friend of his who swears that we're actually going to be engaging in relationships with robots! >> we will be having sex with robots! >> we will be having sex with robots before we're dead. >> i mean, that's very scary! >> this is an interesting topic. you can ask whether robots are good or evil. the fact is they're a technology and tool. it's about human beings interact with them. human beings are good and evil. you can take a hammer and build a house for your grandmother or commit aggravated assault at a july fourth barbecue, right? either way. >> yes. >> so where is the sex with robots? >> let's not forget the theme for the movie. what happened, it said human beings, you have the capacity for evil, so we need to take over and since you said they

could think and just connect the dots. listen! i'm scared! i'm scared, okay! >> they complicate our moral situation because they are so life-like. if i kick a toaster, no one is going to care. if i kick a robot that looks exactly like a human baby or a puppy dog, well, now there is something to worry about. this is a very life-like thing. researchers at the university of washington have found that kids will actually treat robots with moral sense as long as the robot demand it. if you design a robot and you kick a puppy and it does nothing, you will have kids who think it's okay to kick a puppy. >> you're scaring me again! i'm thinking now about transformers! it's worrying me! >> there is a valid, very important conversation here which is as technology, which is

what america has become marc america for, electricity, light bulb, telephone, airplane. that's why we have the jobs and created the jobs we have. robots may be an economy for us and may help us but, at the same time, they will annihilate and have been doing that a huge percentage of the things we've had people doing and create incredible list of moral questions. >> every technology you just described has wiped out hundreds of thousands of jobs. you're going to have that. that's the change in the economy. we just need it to stay dynamic. again, you can't associate it with a current problem which is the collapse of the financial system and everything else. >> right. >> long term, look at the 20th century. you can't even imagine the change, yet the economy just kept growing all through it with fits and starts. >> but long term, when you look at the state of the economy we are presently going through right now, you look at how ridiculous it is. the fact you entertain anything that will take away more jobs,

it seems to be a dire situation. >> it may create new jobs. >> exactly. you're going to take jobs, you have to create jobs. >> you have to figure out ways to ease into that transition. >> i know. that's another reason why i wanted to call this meeting, i think. that and the bugs and the cameras on top of 30 rock which is just fine. we'll take a break. be right back after this. guys... the blue goes on the left. (announcer) getting ready for the big game? ohhhh... bring it. bounty extra soft-- the bounty with a little extra softness! it's super absorbent. and it works extra hard for your money. in this lab demo, one sheet of bounty extra soft out-scrubs two sheets of the bargain brand. game on. bounty extra soft. look for new prints. come on in. you're invited to the chevy open house. where getting a new vehicle is easy. because the price on the tag is

the price you pay on remaining '08 and '09 models. you'll find low, straightforward pricing. it's simple. now get an '09 silverado xfe with an epa estimated 21 mpg highway for under 28 thousand after all offers. go to chevy.com/openhouse for more details. a heart attack at 53. i had felt fine. but turns out... my cholesterol and other risk factors... increased my chance of a heart attack. i should've done something. now, i trust my heart to lipitor. when diet and exercise are not enough, adding lipitor may help. unlike some other cholesterol lowering medications, lipitor is fda approved to reduce the risk... of heart attack, stroke, and certain kinds of heart surgeries... in patients with several common risk factors... or heart disease. lipitor has been extensively studied... with over 16 years of research. lipitor is not for everyone, including people with liver problems...

and women who are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant. you need simple blood tests to check for liver problems. tell your doctor if you are taking other medications, or if you have any muscle pain or weakness. this may be a sign of a rare but serious side effect. i was caught off-guard. but maybe you can learn from my story. have a heart to heart with your doctor... about your risk. and about lipitor. an eleven sixteenths wrench over here? here you go. eleven sixteenths... (announcer) from designing some of the world's cleanest and most fuel-efficient jet engines... to building more wind turbines than anyone in the country... the people of ge are working together... creating innovation today for america's tomorrow. thanks! no problem!

bugs. we're back after this. living with copd... but i try not to let it slow me down. i go down to the pool for a swim... get out and dance... even play a little hide-n-seek. i'm breathing better... with spiriva. announcer: spiriva is the only once-daily inhaled maintenance treatment for both forms of copd... which includes chronic bronchitis and emphysema.

i take it every day. it keeps my airways open... to help me breathe better all day long. and it's not a steroid. announcer: spiriva does not replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms. stop taking spiriva and call your doctor if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells, you get hives, or have vision changes or eye pain. tell your doctor if you have glaucoma, problems passing urine or an enlarged prostate, as these may worsen with spiriva. also discuss the medicines you take, even eye drops. side effects may include dry mouth, constipation and trouble passing urine. every day could be a good day to breathe better. announcer: ask your doctor if once-daily spiriva is right for you. to build a new generation of airplanes to connect the world. airplanes that fly cleaner and farther on less fuel. and make nonstop travel possible to more places. announcer: around the globe, the people of boeing

are working together-- to bring us together. that's why we're here.

. welcome back. lots to talk about. evil today. evil ceos and evil robots. nothing compared to what we had to face this morning at the meeting. mid-town manhattan is behind us. basically a camera on 30 rock that shoots. look at them! look at it! they are giant bugs on the top

of the building! you can't -- there it is! there! do you see them? he only does it when i'm not looking. anyway. they are not bugs. wait! may you have a bug-free weekend! thank you for joining us for another week of meetings. carlos watson begins right now here on msnbc. the doctor diagnosed arthritis in my right knee. but with aleve, i don't have to worry about my knees hurting. only two aleve can stop pain all day. that would take three times as many tylenol arthritis pain. aleve works for me.