i want to switch to what our objectives are. ignore the bugs that are hinld me on the top of the camera. it's one thing if you are on patrol in a military unit in afghanistan. what is the protocol and how does wondering away come up? >> it's hard to do. one of the good things about the deployments in afghanistan and iraq is you cannot get away from your sergeants day and night, and this is a good kid, and been in the army a year. three months in afghanistan, and allegedly, according to the taliban, he was drunk and wondered away. so hopefully that's not the case. who knows. the armed forces are wisely keeping their mouth shut about the circumstances. >> i will make an assumption here, and correct me if i am

wrong, but i presume the objective in afghanistan is to have a form of stable government that can control the development of terrorists cells and activ y activity, is that correct? >> yeah, and we need to get out of there leaving an operative state that won't allow terrorists to act in the global environment. >> and that's the objective. jim, i want you to get in here. how do you create a stable operating government in afghanistan and pakistan without planning to be in control of the land or in control of that government? >> i had that discussion with senior military official thz morning who had just been to the reen, and they said the last thing the u.s. can do is try to impose itself on the people of afghanistan. what they are trying to do is empower the afghan people at the

lowest local level that they can. >> how does that work? >> well, it works very slowly, actually. they are going to have to infuse some kind of governmental structure, rule of law in these individual areas. and some sense of security. but that's going to take years in a region that did not have that kind of organized governmental support ever. >> this seems like it has all the makings for a so-called quagmire, where you don't want to be the person in charge of basically perpetuating that objective, which is the stable government. what mechanism if any have you seen to be successful in creating a transition where the u.s. doesn't have to be running the government in order to get the out come we desire? >> we have been there 7 1/2 years now, and we have a new commander, and it's the best we

produced since the 9/11 happened to us. we have a tremendous infusion of resources and troops. soon we will have 35,000 allies. and that's by christmas. and this looks like a decade-long challenge to build the state. we will have to tell the american people that and hopefully get their support. jim says, you cannot impose order on this 14th century society that has never had peace. >> what is the policy back story right now? what is the operating policy in dealing with afghanistan in washingt washington? >> remember, obama said the united states took the eye off the ball of the original important on terror, and that was in afghanistan, in favor of the war in iraq. and now he is sending troops over that afghanistan is his

number one priority. we are seeing between the fighter jet crash on saturday, and the kidnapping of this private, and -- >> here is my concern with the obama administration, and whether health care is the priority or afghanistan is the priority, it's one thing to send resources, and then another thing is you have to have a plan. >> we have to show some progress or the american people will think that victory is not attainable. i think that, you know, the president and secretary gates and all of the people in the american military who are charged with doing things in afghanistan are trying to come up with the best policy possible to make sure there is security in afghanistan. >> i am running out of time. jim, you have new news? >> absolutely, dylan. in terms of the soldier's

disappearance, the senior officials that just returned from the region, they say it appears the private first class soldier wondered off the base, and he was not on patrol or drunk, and he wondered off the base, and left his body armor and weapon behind to visit local afghans who in the course of his routine patrols he befriended, and he thought they were friends and possibly fell into some kind of trap. >> thank you. we will talk to you soon. jonathan, we will talk to you in just a second. contessa, the president very aggressive on health care again. what is going on? >> he is going to take the lead on the health care push this week, dylan. he wants to see this reform happen. senior white aides now say the president will make an aggressive private case and a public case this week. he is expected to have a primetime news conference on wednesday. certainly, if you are looking at the polls it looks like the president needs the push,

because the latest washington poll says 49% approve of the way he is handling health care, and that was 58% approval in april. and it dropped significantly. and the disapproval numbers jumping. and now you are seeing the rnc member, and we will listen to what he is saying. these are live pictures here. we will bring you the details later in this morning's meeting. governor mark sanford says he is sorry. he compares the past few weeks with attending his funeral and seeing what people are saying about him. and sanford suggests that this experience could make him a better governor. quote, i think this could be a far more productive last session than the one that had the

tragedy is that unfolded not occurred, and in turn peoples' lives can be made better. he doesn't say what he is apologizing for, turning his back on the people of south carolina, and abandoning his family, or dumping his responsibility for weeks. does governor stanford know? he admitted that he was in argentina with his mistress, even though his staff said they thought he was hiking on the appalachian trail. >> yeah, that would have been a good one. in our political theater over the past few years, and going back over a decade, randy cohen joins the meeting. nice to see you back.

and chris jansing back. and i think we visited briefly once in california, and now you are here for the next couple hours. >> yeah, something more significant than michael jackson. >> and jonathan is still here. and i want to bring eric, a crisis management expert, and author of the book "damage control." and the beginning of this conversation is mark sanford, and where it ends, i have no idea. eric, i will begin with you, though. adapting the title of your book, what, in a nutshell, is your point? >> well, i think that a lot of damage control is characterized by the silly mother goose where if you say you're sorry, the problem goes away, and you need to apologize and show concern. there is not a lot of data that show the mother goose chestnuts is what really works.

and what happens with sanford, he seems to believe that there is some correlation between how many times you apologize and whether the problem goes away. and what i would tell you is what the data in my experience shows there are situations where you need to apologize, and then you have to stop listening to the media saying if only you would tell us more, than the problem would go away. frankly, sometimes -- that's good for the media. that's not good for the principal. and sometimes after you make your statement, it's time to shut up and say pound sand, i am not telling you any more. >> and where do you think the line is, particularly for a conversation, and you can go from bill clinton forward, because bill clinton introduced the era of you cannot be accepted as a politician if we catch you screwing around. every since then, it's a game of

i caught you screwing around quit, and i got you screwing around quit, and some people and some don't, right? >> sanford was adamant that bill clinton should quit. and apparently he has had a change of heart. and i am not his press agent, so i don't care whether he is over exposed. i am a citizen of the country, so your last guest is calling it over exposed, i call it telling the truth. this guy's own values are you should resign under these conditions. >> i think the other problem for him is most of the american people did not know him before this. bill clinton was a known quantity. you liked him or did not like him before. sanford was only followed by people that followed politics closely. and the only way they know him is standing up in front of people saying this is truly a love story. and, you know, while his wife is

sitting at home watching and his kids are sitting at home watching. i think this apology lies in the face of when people were most introduced to him. most people saw him as a guy standing out there and saying, but really, i found my soul mate. >> and jonathan, i will get along with you in a minute. we have a bunch of different folks here. there are lots of folks in the political theater or professional sports or media who have horrible embarrassing things, or huge betriayals breaking the law. what is the breach of trust and resurrecting yourself, like michael vick coming back to play baseball, would anybody touch him? is it a behavioral line? is it what my offense was or how

i carry myself after the offense? >> are you talking about who gets rehabilitated? >> henry kissinger. despite -- well, it seems to me if you have money and power, you are neatly rehabilitated. >> let's figure this out. let's go down the line with you, chris. let's start with rudy giuliani. he is in. i will mark him as in. >> he is making a lot of money. >> he is working. and then i have a sun. that is from the weather channel. he is in. michael vick, can he come back? >> he served his time. can he do his job?

>> jonathan, do you agree with that? >> i don't want to, but he probably will. >> martha stewart is back, right? jim mcgreevey? >> well, if he comes back, he will not come back in politics but some other venue. >> and then bill clinton, he is back, come on! >> he never went away. >> and o.j. simpson was the most interesting one. he was accused of murder. it felt like o.j. was on the edge of finding a version of back for him, and then blew it. >> yeah, i was in las vegas for the last trial that landed him in prison. you had a lot of people out there, but not very many for o.j. when you think about it in the past, there were so many people that stayed on the bandwagon, and i think it just became very old. you had a chance, you could have come back and stayed quiet and

stayed in florida, or whatever, stayed on the golf course. >> what do you mean on his side? what do you mean, all the fans of felons were not supporting him any more? >> i am talking about doing the trial before he was convicted. >> well, what is important to keep in mind is what is it that we expect from you? when i got a call a few years ago and somebody said, how do you think paris hilton can survive being in jail, and going to jail for paris hilton is not a crisis, it's a brand extension. and somebody like michael vick, can he come back as an athlete? of course. can he be a supreme court justice? no. when jim mcgreevey resigned, he did knock the scandal out of the news, but he is not a governor. somebody like larry craig remained in office. i would say that was a crisis

well managed. he did not stay in the senate forever. he is never going to be president. if your goals are highly targeted, touch as an acquittal versus a better image, a lot of these things are doable. >> a heck of a sales pitch. i can see why you have your business. if coming back simply requires acquittal, i am your guy. we will take a break. we will be back talking outer space. the president pounding the table on health care. and a conversation about how all the shenanigans in the late '90s have folks in the country trapped literally inside their homes. the mobility of the highway is only useful if you can get out of your house. and we will talk about that coming up on the meeting. we have a full week of two-hour meetings coming up. garth, you're up.

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one small step for man. one giant leap for mankind. >> 40 years ago, lots of attention and for a great cause. those famous words, of course, coming from neil armstrong, the first man to set foot on the moon. today, of course is july 20th, 2009. and tom costello on the beat for the historic occasion. what are the day's events, tom? >> later today we will have the astronauts meeting with president obama. the "apollo 11" crew will remember this moment. 40 years ago at 11:00 eastern time at night when neil

armstrong first set foot on the moon, followed by buzz aldrin. and they brought back 40 pounds of lunar rocks to analyze the rocks to get a sense of what the moon is made of. last night here at the space museum, buzz aldrin made a plea to return to space, and not just space and the moon, but he made a play to go to mars. >> instead of a moon race, we can help make the moon a true steppingstone to more exciting and inhabitable place. we could venture outward to mars for america's future. >> nasa's plan right now is to return to the moon by 20/20, an

then go to mars. and i talked to the administrator of nasa, and he told me if we will go to mars, we have to be able to go put people in a submarine, and submerge them for years, and then unless we can do that, it will be difficult to go to mars. >> and nasa's budget, $18 billion. we spend on more on space development than energy development on the country. and chris jenning with us for this conversation, and so is jonathan. but we have a democrat from florida, and he flew on a mission in 1986. and nbc news veteran space correspondent covered every mission american astronauts have ever thrown, 172 in total.

tomorrow is jay's 51 anniversary with nbc news. jay, a real pleasure to have you joining the conversation this morning as well. when you look at those that analyze, jay, the space program on a yield basis, we are spending this much money is it worth it at a time when money is scare scarce, how do you look at the space program when you look at how much it kaus? >> i will tell you this, dylan. the way i look at it, apollo means we are 50 years ahead today in technology that we would not have been if we had not gone to the moon. if you can imagine technology back in the '50s, that's where we would have been. there is no price tag. >> i have a question. you have been at this a long time. longer than me for sure.

and is that skip you are talking on? >> no. >> it looks like you could be coming from the moon. senator, are you there? >> i am here. >> you understand my question. i won't repeat it. how do you look at it? >> our character is to explore, and that's how the country was founded. that's the way we are going to continue. and our frontier, instead of upward, and instead of westward is upward and inwoard. >> instead of having the 37th best health care in the world, similar to costa rica, we actually get a high yield. how do we -- how do we redirect

that adventurous spirit? i want to go to space, but we need to go to the universe of lobbying and finance campaigning, and that's resulting in the inefficiencies that we have? do you think we could redirect that to all of these other things? >> yes. and you are depositing it as if it's either or, and it isn't. it could be both. and if we negligent one to the other, then we are not fulfilling our character as a people, as explorers, and as discoverers, which you are talking about energy. we are right in the middle of energy right now, trying to do a major energy bill. >> i guess i am concerned, we could have bills for this and that, and we have a health care bill and energy bill, but unless we are honest about what our needs are for these things, and

about the whether it's health insurance, or huge inefficiencies as a country, that's the exploration, how to stop getting ripped off as a taxpayer, and that's what i am on these days with this particular conversation. jonathan, you were going to say something. >> i respectfully disagree. >> yeah, and that's why it's a meeting, but i want to get jonathan in. >> i have a question for senator nelson, and what exactly would the american people get from missions to mars? beyond exploring and exploring upwards as opposed to heading west, what specifically would human kind get from such explore ration? >> jay, let me try that. what did america get for the space program thus far? when we went to the moon we had to develop highly reliable

systems were small in volume and light in weight, and that brought about the microminutization that is part of the daily lifestyles today. so as you project that for the future, you can see the spinoffs that are going to occur, the spinoffs into modern medicine today. look, if we go to mars, we are going to be walking around those dry river beds to see if there was water there. if so was there life? if developed, was it civilized? >> my only request, senator, while we do that, and we are all in favor of that, that we don't negligent earth in the process. jay, go ahead. >> hang on, jay. >> back when all of this started, this was not about

necessarily going into space and finding new things, it was about beating -- >> russia. >> yeah, the soviets. it was war. and there was a patriotism, and enthusiasm. we are at a place 40 years later where a lot of people who sat up in the middle of the night and watched man set foot on the moon, they are not going to be around a lot longer. that kind of enthusiasm has to be somehow rebuilt. how do you do that? the question is, can you do it by what we just heard from senator nelson given the other economic realities? >> quickly, jay, and then i have to go. >> yeah, please. everybody has been answering for me. let me say this. if we don't go to mars or explore, that's the end of the human species. this thing we are on, it's a spacecraft, and we have to get off of it. we have only been around a couple 100,000 years, and we are not going to be around much

longer if we don't learn how to leave the cradle where we were born. >> amen to that. >> and senator, to be clear, we are simply asking the same adventurous spirit that you speak of to get to mars, that same spirit be used in being honest in turning overall the systems inefficiencies that plague our country, health care and education and defense, that were so terribly neglected for years. >> i work on that every year. and thank you. we are going to take a break. we are back with more at the "morning meeting." we will plug in to other things going on today. we will take a look at journalism. the death of walter cronkite last friday. did he live in the golden era of

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well, has journalism become voyeurism in this country? what has the internet done and the 24 hour news cycle? you know the conversation. we will have our version of it with the passing of one of the greatest of all-time. we will have that conversation coming up. total care. everything you need to strengthen teeth, help prevent cavities, and kill germs.

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welcome back to the "morning meeting." let's reset the agenda. half an hour in, and hour and a half to go. and reaction to some very sad images there as we try to define what our objectives are. we will review that later. the fight over health care continues. the head of the public party ripping the obama administration and democrats in congress as we speak. contessa monitoring that as we also get live pictures from the space shuttle where they are

preparing for their space walk as we here on earth celebrate the anniversary of the walk on the moon. and we are in the heavy cycle of corporate earnings as you hear the bell there. we will come back to talk about the state of corporate america. that's a later meeting. the death of walter cronkite, contessa? >> we know he was a broadcast legend. a lot of people don't know that walter cronkite was a devoted husband and father, and he died at the age of 92. he was the anchor of cbs news from 1962 until he stepped down in 1981. one of his most memorable moments came when he announced to the nation the death of president john f. kennedy. >> the flash apparently official. president kennedy died at 1:00

p.m. central standard time, 2:00 eastern standard time, some 38 minutes ago. >> the museum in washington, d.c. has a special tribute to cronkite. and here is president obama reacting to the news that walter cronkite had passed. >> walter was always more than just an anchor, somebody that we could trust throughout the issues of the day, and a voice of certainty in an uncertain world. he was family. in moments of tragedy, he looked us in the eye and shared our pain. in mow maments of triumph, he rejoiced with us. >> what he said was the voice of the nation. >> yeah, and bringing our panel

back in, "new york times" columnists, randy cohen, and of course, jonathan kahpart. if you define journalism -- i won't define journalism. how do you define it? how is it different before it was modern technology? >> well, certainly the big difference is distributiodistri. when cronkite took over the news, it was 15 minutes long. you got the news the day before in the morning paper, and then you watch the evening news for what happened that day. now we have news all over the place, 24 hours distributed to our phones and blackberries and all of the rest of it. whether in fact we have better coverage is another story. certainly cell phones allow people to get pictures of unrest

in iran when nobody else can get that, and whether that means it's journalists, they are citizens, and i am not sure they are journalists. >> jonathan, we are talking about this because we are in the process of launching a new cable show, is that three weeks old. the question is, and you are obviously depending on ratings and all the other aspects. we love to talk about health care at the meeting. it's fun to talk about and there are trillions of dollars at stake, and everybody has an interest in it, etc., etc. so far, and maybe it's me or my hair cut, it doesn't rate. you don't get a lot of viewers for a big panel conversation about health care at this point. it's not just us. if you look at other networks, they don't rate with it as well. but the value of journalism to explore that publicly, and the fraud and theft and all the manipulations that happen when that much money is around, but

because it does not rate, it gets negligented, and because michael jackson does rate, i get hours and hours of michael jackson, and i don't know how journalistsly you cut through that? >> you cut through it, dylan, by continually coming back to the issue, because it is important. it's one thing to cover health care once and never come back to it again. why would anybody be interested if you hear about it once. the duty that we have as journalists, and what is good about this show, and all news programs that focus on health care is that it's informing people so that when they do finally focus in on what is going on, the news organization that is presenting the information is not coming at this with just 15 minutes boning up on the issue, but has been delving deep into it for a long time. >> assuming the show has not been cancelled, because all we do is talk about health care and

now nobody is watching. >> well, in the 1850s with the rise of tabloid magazines, you attracted readers. and now the washington post is doing a great job, and the "time" is doing a great job. and that's how ideas permeate. >> i have a question for you, my ethical friend? >> professionally? >> yeah. >> i have a poll. you like polls, right? >> yeah, i love polls. >> the poll is simple. it says the degree -- the number of american people have that a great deal of confidence in the american news media is 8%. which means 92% don't either believe or trust what they are saying on the television. quite a bit have 11%. that gets us to 80% don't believe anything that they are

seeing. i am exaggerating. and the point is, i accept your argument, but the american people do not trust the information being delivered to them largely. >> there are so many frustrated journalists working today, if you are unable to find material, that's your fault not journalism's fault. it might be a promotion problem. but it's not a problem of a lapse of journalism. >> you are saying there is good product there, but people need to be getting to the product? >> well, read the new yorker every week. when have we had more journalists alive and working at one time? wonderful bloggers. >> now, you are just out here -- >> well, you have your own list. there are really bright and interesting people with perspectives have an out look for work, and no way to pay for it. that's another problem.

>> it's a free country. >> my landlord doesn't believe in the free economy. >> what are you paying me? >> nothing. >> exactly. it's a modern economy. >> i am not getting a paycheck, are you kidding me? >> jonathan, we will see you in a second. profession, thank you so much. we are taking a break, and we are back here at the "morning meeting" here on monday. back after this. free credit r! tell your friends, tell your dad, tell your mom! never mind, they've been singing our songs since we first showed up with our pirate hats on! if you're not into fake sword fights pointy slippers and green wool tights take a tip from a knight who knows free credit report dot com, let's go! vo: offer applies with enrollment in triple advantage. i switched to a complete multivitamin with more. only one a day men's 50+ advantage... has gingko for memory and concentration. plus support for heart health. that's a great call. one a day men's.

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i am contessa brewer. the family of a kidnapped soldier is asking for privacy. this is the first time he has been seen since captured three weeks ago. george lewis is in his hometown in idaho. >> contessa, we are outside of

the river street coffee house, where he used to work. they knew something was up after he disappeared three weeks ago. they stopped receiving e-mails from him, but kept quiet about it because they were concerned about his safety and the family's concern that this below key in case the army was able to pull off a rescue. the family release add statement sayi saying this. that statement was from his family. they are remaining in private. they are speaking through the department of defense and local law enforcement agencies. over the weekend, here at local church many priors were offered up for his

obviously, people here are very child by seeing him in that video, obviously, under did your res during the video and occasionally prompted by his captors about what to say. so this community is very much on edge about the status of bowe bergdahl. >> george, thanks. unbelievable video. a rescue from a burning car in milwaukee, wisconsin. a group of bystanders saw a crash and rushed in to save a mother and her two young children. a 4-year-old boy and two of the rescuers were burned, but everybody is expected to be okay. high schoolers from oregon have been quarantined to china because a classmate reportedly tested positive for swine flu so they killed time learning dance moves from michael jackson's "thriller." teens from st. mary's school in metford shot this video. they were wearing the shoe covers and surgical masks and gloves. as for their classmate who tested positive, apparently the

latest test came back negative. dylan is back with more "morning meeting" in a minute.

welcome back. here is contessa. you look so july fourthy and red, white and blue. >> i love america. "harry potter" turns out very popular in america. huge weekend. it opened to 79.5 million this week, according to the studio estimates from nielson. 237 million dollars would make this the highest grossing foreign open ever for "harry potter" and he is practically a grobe. grown-up now. >> big gangbusters. >> the superlatives of "harry potter" are always, you know? >> much better than sacha baron cohen when plummeted this

weekend. the concert promoter for michael jackson has concert promotion foot app. now apparently there is a bidding war for this. it looks like, this is being reported in some places, the offer right now is $50 million is where it's starting for the rights to distribute this footage. >> really? they haven't received their bid for the "morning meeting" yet? >> wow. >> do you have that much? >> $2! $50 million? listen. >> we'll get a picture of his shoe. does the family have that money? >> presumably some of that goes back to the children and the mother katherine jackson, presumably. >> but then again the meeting is not a place for presumptions, is it? >> actually, it is. frequently, we presume. i'm not saying anything about you, dylan, but pointing it out.

observe, there are presumptions and assumptions going on. >> a lot of i assuming and presuming. we're back on afghanistan. hopefully, will be an education on the soldier and what our objectives are in that country. the housing market, when it was booming booming, so, too, was the housing market. the jobs market and housing market is gone and folks across this country are literally trapped in a financial prison that is now known to them as their home. we'll have that conversation. plus six months into the obama administration. new poll numbers on the president, six months on the job. we take a look at how he is doing as his poll numbers decline amid his health care fight and, of course, the unresponsive or relatively unresponsive economy up to this point as well. the meeting continues after this. (announcer) that ball is going, going, gone! home run!

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10:00 a.m. in the east and 7:00 in the west, coming to you live from the third floor inside of a perfectly air-conditioned highly stable and safe studio environment other than the fact there are insects on top of the building that occasionally walk behind me. second hour will contain the following. we'll begin with afghanistan. on the agenda for this meeting, more on that captured soldier, in addition to that, more conversation on the u.s. objectives there. is his capture evidence of a larger problem? is this a one point that gives us an occasion to explore what we are doing with our money and soldiers in that part of the world. michael steele is jumping into the health care debate and doing so this morning and particularly about the money it will cost. what happened to getting some bang for your buck in this country? and since when is it unpatriotic to be against paper erring the country with with money to get your objective served even if half that money gets wasted or blown on something it wasn't intended for.

we'll have a conversation not only about health care but also the argument of efficiency and who is paying for what. living underwater. the financial crisis most likely has you trapped in your own home, at least a lot of folks are in that situation. this is one of the liabilities of creating huge fluctuations in people's homes in terms of pricing because when it comes down, people whether they have babies or are divorced or moving, they are stuck. prisoners in their own home and talk about how to get people out of that situation. then president obama has been in office now six months. a new poll on how he is faring. we'll ask where the politics has changed. we get back to work now at the meeting right now. getting new information out of afghanistan. i want to get back to jim miklaszewski in d.c. at the pentagon. what is going on, jim? >> dylan, in talking to military

officials here, you know, we're learning this morning what is the most likely scenario for the disappearance of this private first class bowe bergdahl who was seen for the first time since his capture three weeks ago yesterday on this videotape released by the taliban and coming from military commanders there on the ground who were actually bergdahl's commanders. and according to them, it appears that bergdahl, while on routine patrols outside the wire there at his forward operating base in eastern afghanistan had befriended some of the locals and on that evening of june 30th, simply walked outside the wire, left behind his weapon, and his body armor. apparently to visit some of the locals who he had befriended. now, the question is were the taliban around and saw him as a target of opportunity and simply grabbed him? or was this a trap? that's unknown. but with regard to the video released yesterday, as

disturbing as it was, it was somewhat of a relief to military officials say now, for the first time, they have proof that he is alive and he looked in relatively good physical condition, but if you listen to the tape, psychologically, he's on the edge. >> i miss them every day that i'm gone. i miss them and i'm afraid that i might never see them again. >> military officials say they are receiving all sorts of intelligence that indicates where he might be. the search is on, but knittedly, they really have no clear clue as to exactly where he is and all they can do is hold out hope that they find him. >> jim, barry mcafterry refoins us here with jonathan capehart. getting control of a country without having getting control of a country, which appears to be what we're attempting to do. you made mention, jim, of efforts on the ground. can you be specific at all?

in other words, what do we have our children doing in that country or what are we doing with either media or manipulation of resources or provision of resources to attempt to persuade the hearts and minds in that country on street level? >> dylan, at the street level, the first thing the u.s. military has to do is establish some kind of sense of security, that once the u.s. military leaves, these afghans don't think they've been abandoned and in fact, are abandoned even temporarily. >> where do we stand in that regard? do you have any expense of where we stand in that particular aspect today? >> in that particular aspect the biggest military offensive in afghanistan is still under way in the south in helmand. 4,000 u.s. marines involved in that operation. >> but those are open ffs? >> absolutely. >> so that is far from security? i mean, that's not even close? that is warfare? >> absolutely. temporarily. the key is, according to u.s. military officials, is to drive

the taliban out of some of these areas and then stay until iraqi security forces are able to come in and provide some sense of security to the locals. now, therein lies the rub. >> i hate to say it, but, general, if we're reliant on the iraqi security forces not only to stabilize iraq and bring them in, i'm not saying that is the only mechanism. where do we stand in the process of creating stability without having to have our children at war, our resources at risk, and our policy there -- their agenda for the simple reason it's unsustainable unless we want to occupy afghanistan for the indefinite future which i presume we don't. >> i presume we're talking about afghanistan, not iraq, by the way. they are totally different situations. iraq is a secular, modernized, sophisticated -- >> so educate me on afghanistan.

>> well, afghanistan is 14th century country. it really hasn't had peace in probably 2 1/2 generations. we're building an afghan army and police force. the army has the rudements of a beginning, but we are over 130,000 of them probably by next sum urm. they look like they are responding to the state. the police are a disaster. that's a harder problem to create honest cops, a court, a judge, you know, defense lawyers, so that's going to be the stuff of a decade or more hard work. i think the bottom line is, dylan, in afghanistan, you've got to get an economy up and running. >> right. >> not based on opium and heroin and you have to have institutions of government that exist at province and district level. hard work. and it is achievable. >> who is that? >> it's jonathan. general, in regard to what you just said, how important is the presidential election next month in fostering the stability in those institutions and the

economy and the armed services and the police forces in afghanistan? >> well, that's a good question. ambassador ikenberry and holbrooke and others are keeping a distance and all sorts of discussion. presidential elections are a big thing in afghanistan. it looks to me from the polling numbers i'm reading, karzai again will win. he is trying to balance tribal politics. my guess he will probably stay in office and coop the opposition. there is a parliament that sort of works. you know the rudements -- >> is the conflict we're dealing with over there a disorganized conflict? a guerrilla conflict? in other words, is it something we can organize and deal with, or is it just, you know, three or four guys there and 10, 12 guys there and 25 guys here with weapons, who, if they see a target, an american soldier or some other afghani asset,

they'll blow it up? >> some of them are pretty organized. i mean, the pashtun are getting rockets and mortars and using 3,500 ieds this past year. >> their bangroll is heroin, primarily? >> i think so. some numbers are coming from international jihadism but primary, this is drugs. it's also criminal content and if there is no police force, dylan n a district capital, then there is no law, except that imposed by a bunch of kids who have been perverted by war fare. >> men limited to no policing and weapons is that we're dealing with? >> the beginnings of police force are there. 4,000 new trainers are headed to afghanistan to try to build on

the iraqi army and to create a police force, but not to be discounted as a complex long-term challenge. >> indeed. listen. thank you for the conversation and the education and the insight, general mccaffrey. jonathan, i think i'll let you go. a delight to see you. >> thanks. >> dylan, we've been watching this aftermath of the mumbai terror attacks. he has denied it for months that he was involved in these november terror attacks but now the lone surviving gunman says he is, indeed, guilty. ten gunmen killed people in a taj mahal hotel. the gunman has denied his guilty the last 65 days of the trial. the british government dropped its terror alert to lowest level in three years. it's down from severe. but still a strong possibility of a future terror attack and no reason given for the change.

republicans are escalating their battle against a trillion dollar health care reform plan. michael steele said president obama and the democrats want to, his words, nationalize health care with a plan that will hurt the economy and force millions to drop their current coverage. >> many democrats outside of the obama/pelosi/reid know that voters won't stand for these polish prescriptions for health care or for ourselves. we doo too. . republicans will do everything humanly responsible to remind everybody of the spermgs going on in washington and what we must do to keep members of the house and senate out of the laboratory. senator ted kennedy is fighting back. in a news article he writes --

a new report from the nonpartisan congressional budget of office shows the health reform plan in the house would increase the federal deficit by $239 billion over ten years and then there is this new "the washington post" poll that shows president obama's approval rating, when it comes to handling health care, it's slipping somewhat, down to 49% from 57% just a couple of months ago. dylan, then the question is this really about health insurance reform? or is this about health care reform? because you're not going to save a ton of money by just health insurance. >> that's the question. the question is reform just a debate on who has to pay for it? or is reform actually reforming the system of health care, because it's hugely inefficient and hugely expensive and all of the rest of it. in a couple of hours at 1:00 p.m. eastern, president obama will have remarks himself on

health care reform. again, let's differentiate reforming the system by which we deliver and create health care in our system and simply redirecting who pays for it from the corporation to the taxpayer to the taxpayer to the individual. those are different things. obama on those subjects at 1:00 today. aaron billings, deputy editor for the capitol hill newspaper "roll call" is tightly to what happens on the hill and chris jansing is with us and randy cohen, nice to see you both. i'm going to begin with you on the health care front. actually -- not amir. i'm sorry. on the health care front on roll call. i'm going to come back with you and start with chris. what is your sense where we are headed right now? >> i think the white house has to work hard. think that i cbo number when it came out last week dealt them a

blow. they didn't expect some of the democratic pushback. pushback by some really interesting areas. if you look at the votes in the committee, for example, dylan, some of the democratic congressman from wealthy districts are saying no. so he's got an uphill battle to fight and he is going to start today and wednesday is critical. he is going to have to call into play all of his very formidable communications skill. >> is anyone in washington differing who is paying? >> i think everybody is differentiating on everything. how are we going to pay for it is the key question. >> what are we paying for? >> right. we're looking at everything now. you're starting to see a little crack. you know? the house, nancy pelosi is now saying there's some flexibility on, you know, this supposed surtax on the wealthy to pay for it and now talking about possibly taxing the insurance companies and will they attack the benefits or the beneficiaries. it's all over the map. that's the big problem.

there isn't agreement. you know, with the clock ticking, that's why you see the president getting so aggressive right now. >> here is what confuses me, randy. we know we spend more than any other nation and get less. we want more people to have health care in this country, understandably. we're having a grand conversation who is going to pay for who gets all of the health care, but there is no real conversation, that i can see, about how we get from spending the most and coming in 37th and to spending the most and coming in first or even in the top ten. or in the top 20 because it's much easier to sit around and say, listen, health care for everybody. are you against health care? if you're against health care, you're against human beings or can you do this? you're an idiot and you can't write a check. your choice is against writing a check or to be inhuman and against health care when, the reality is we need to do neither of those things and create a health care system that we don't spend the most and get the 37th best care out of it. i'm not sure how dodd that. >> that is all gwanda.

>> we've been trying to get her to come on. i know. >> >> great journalism. >> it's the golden age of journalism. >> yes. >> spending more doesn't necessarily yield more results. it doesn't matter what system you used to pay health care -- >> the politicians want to play moral. >> and children. >> and children. >> many of the uninsured you hear that a lot. >> all valid, by the way. >> because it's true! >> right. >> the other side is you don't care about anything. you want to write checks and don't deal with it and when there is an elephant in the room we're writing checks for things that don't result in good health care. we go straight to the who is paying conversation without ever indullinging and allowing ourselves the honesty -- that needs to be dealt with before we

get to who is paying. >> you also have a system that is set up, this is no news to anybody, where you have to take a very implicated subject and you have to decide what your argument is going to be. so you get people on both sides, they get together and say this is going to be our argument and, for example, the republicans have used very effectively the cost argument. >> yep. >> so it's difficult in that situation to get something that's very nuanced. >> when the trick is, i can win the argument by the emotional manipulation of either being against human beings and babies or -- >> are you for that? >> are you for against killing human beings and babies or health care for them. in other words i can use emotional manipulation or that or money. >> honesty? i'm not sure which to come down on which side. >> there is so much at stake and such an opportunity across the board whether health care and do finance and energy, to have truly valuable enhancements of 21st century aspects of this society, the technology and the process, we ignore all of it and stick with 19th century sort of

name-calling. >> well, and it's disingenuous not to acknowledge you're paying for it in any case when people have to seek primary care in emergency rooms and people go untreated there is enormous cost. not as though you're getting out free either way. i think you can hold both sides to a little intellectual integrity into the debasement. >> erin, who has the biggest integrity in the debate on congress? >> pick me! >> can i close my eyes and point? i don't know if anybody has the lock on integrity. i mean, you know, there are so many differences of opinion. the president has his wants and the republicans have their wants and the democrats have a whole bunch of different wants so i'm not sure if anybody has the lock on that. i it will tell you this. i think progress is being made. i do not think we will have health care bills signed, sealed and delivered before the august recess. time is of the essence and this president knows his capital is

not going to last forever and he has got to spend it now. >> on the other hand, the argument gets made why is time of the essence? this is a big and important problem. why are we setting these arbitrary deadlines? >> because of the deadline. >> why are things that define the future of this country, whether it is health care, energy, finance, everybody in this country, i don't care what your view is on pot, gay marriage and hookers, i don't know who is against a low cost, relatively high-yield systems for energy resource mtings, et cetera. >> i would say large institutions profit from the status quo. the name snurks insurance company does come to mind. >> at what point will the american people decide the interest of the insurance company everybody else in nerc must no longer be sevened by our politicians? the bizarre concept that relies

on our politicians that they ought to look out for those people as opposed to try to empower the wealth generation machine of a few insurance executives. that's crazy. i'm sure i'm going to get thrown out of the country in a second. >> you sound like a single-payer guy to me. >> i don't know what the answer is. i'm demanding a more interesting conversation either you're against health care or pay for it when it's ovens obvious we're getting garbage out. maybe it's single-payer. i don't know. i'm here asking questions, randy. i'm not here with answers. second hour of the "morning meeting" getting under way. hoifg housing a conversation that doesn't go away. vi we'll have much more coming up. stay with us. doesn't go away. vi we'll have much more coming up. stay with us. undefeated professional boxer floyd "money" mayweather

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sometimes it doesn't. it depends on the context you're putting it in. what is going on in housing land today some. >> a couple of things. on thursday we expect the national association of realtors to release its existing home sale numbers for june. of course, it's a buyer's market. we saw a modest increase in may because home prices are down 17% from a year ago so things are a good deal. looking at new home construction, we're looking at new numbers. the starts increasing 3.6% following a huge 17.3% spike in may. home construction down 46%,

though, from a year ago. dylan? >> and that is the biggie, the 46% number. before we begin this conversation, i want you to imagine you spent $400,000 to buy a house and took a $350,000 loan and the house is now worth $250,000. so you owe $350,000 on a house that is worth $250,000 and you're getting married or getting divorced and you want to leave that house. not an option. a lot of people in that situation because of that huge up and down on the housing front. amir nowdowns us. i was earlier on your name. founder of "the real deal" magazine you follow real estate. randy and chris also both still here. chris, you have been in california for the past -- i mean, whether it's south florida, michigan, or southern california that has been the epi center of the narrative i just described. give us your sense of how many people, how bad it is that are truly trapped in debtor's

prison. >> well, first of all, it's huge. i mean, you go through -- at first when i moved there and it was only 15, 16 months ago, you went through neighborhoods of middle to mostly lower middle class and you saw the foreclosure signs. now you're going into areas where people have a lot of money and you wonder how they got into trouble. on the other end of the spectrum, i would be interested to hear what amir has to say about this, i did a series of stories going into tent cities, talking to homeless people in shelters. tremendous number of them were construction workers. a lot of them may never even show up in the unemployment numbers. they are seasonal workers. >> not illegals? >> they are born and raised in america who tell me five years ago i was working 50, 60, 70 hours a week and then 40 hours a week and then 30 hours a week and went from my house which i sold and i was able to pay rent and then when i ran through my 40,000 dollars, now i've got nothing. i don't know how many of those

people show up on unemployment numbers, but i can tell you, in california, there has been a shift in the kinds of houses that are being foreclosed on and you certainly see a lot -- a lot of people in the construction industry who are being hurt. >> i want to explore one idea. these people suffer from the phone. can i draw on this thing? basically, when you get the huge spikeup in home prices, right? this is 2000, let's say. this is 2006, '07. then the huge rollover. underneath that was the credit bubble so you have the creation of credit here, credit pushes it up and all of the jobs are created along the way. the jobs go away when this goes down. the credit went away which gets rid of the jobs. why was the credit there? because aig was perpetrating false credit. when the house prices come back down, amir, you have people stuck in homes. when home prices moved at a much

more stable arc like that when the home prices didn't have that huge bubble, my ability to get trapped in a home was much lower. how angry should we be at our politicians for creating this entire credit zoo that creates a huge moonshot at home prices and huge moonshot in jobs growth and diligent for the politicians look at the houses and the jobs and i'm the president and it's so good. then we find out the whole thing was a fraud perpetrated by aig and people are stuck in houses and et cetera, et cetera. where is the responsibility lie? >> i think it's important to have perspective on this. since 2000 to 2006, housing prices doubled. >> yeah. >> it's good to have that, you know, that sense, that all of a sudden you bought a house and it went up. it fluctuated down and adjusted, whatever. it's also important to realize -- >> it didn't fluctuate and go down, whatever. it's a moonshot on what should be the most mature and stable

asset base we have as a country which is our housing stock. it's one thing if a biotech company from california or an internet company comes up with a crazy new idea and emerges as this developing concept and shoots to the moon. it's an entirely different thing if i create a fraudulent flow of money perpetrated by hollow credit insurance that then jacks us, mature assets price, up only to leave construction workers stuck in the streets. >> i don't think anybody argues it was a boom and we definitely needed after the crash of 2000. >> my point is how do i get these people that are stuck in these houses that are now imprison inside a financial prison and whether it was general motors or somebody else, we go to gm and say you're in prison, you can't get out. we're going to convert your debt to equity but the banks are not doing that. >> only one answer and that is to create jobs. jobs are the fuel of this economy and the only way to do that is to help intermanures and

small businesses. >> i get that, yes. >> give them tax breaks and hire people and that will change things. >> i will tell you this. why would you worth with a plan to save and help people when they are standing in quick sand? wouldn't you first go to your politicians and say i need firm ground for people. i can't have the politicians creating financial quick sand for our people and then get a job and dig yourself out when our politicians are the ones put the people into the quick sand. >> i think we need to fix it now because 2010 it will be too late. we need to create jobs for 2010 to see a recovery. right now, we haven't seen a peak in unemployment. people expect it's coming in -- >> i get the jobs thing. >> then take a year after that to even see a recovery. >> i'm aware. i think we have to be honest about the whole construction which, again, we created a fraudulent credit structure in this country. under the fraught credit structure, we kraeed created a flow of money into housing that created a false price ark in

housing that everybody, some participated, some didn't and whatever your relationship was. the point is our politicians were the ones that took lobbying money to create the fraudulent structure in the first place and now get a job and work it out. i'm fine with that, but i need the honesty to understand why i need to get the job and work it out so i also can adjust for the fact that our politicians are willing to take basically lobbying money to create financial quick sand for americans. will you grant me that? >> yeah. >> am i clear? believe me, i can make it very clear. >> tell me, tell me! >> very briefly? >> sure. >> lobbying money from the financial industry into the '90s went in to create -- >> today? >> i know it hasn't ended today which is why i asked for this meeting which is we have to stop that, right? otherwise, we'll sit here all day. a pleasure to talk to you. >> you, too. >> you're looking very nice. >> thank you. >> where do we stand with the

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new poll numbers suggesting the honeymoon ending for our president. we'll take a look at the president's first six months in office and what is ahead in the next six coming up. my biggest pain's really in my lower back. feels kind of like knives. aleve works all day on my back pain. only two aleve liquid gels can stop pain all day. that would take twice as many advil or ibuprofen.

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today, not only 40 years since we walked on the moon but six months since barack obama became the president of the united states. a new "the washington post"/abc poll shows his approval rating has trended down over the past few months. no surprise there. chuck todd with a look at the state of affairs. is the honeymoon over, chuck? >> i mean, i think the last nbc/"wall street journal" poll we were the first poll to see him under 60% indicated the honeymoon phase has been over the last month. i think wa what we are learning now it's a tougher sell. it is hard to put obama and compare him to previous presidents for this reason. he has done a lot of unpopular

stuff in the first six months and still hanging in there. when you look at the stimulus, which added to the deficit, a new bank bailout, $350 billion extra. the big things he has done have been unpopular things and he is still holding on to his personal approval rating and his personal popularity. at what point does he stop using that and cash it on a capitol hill to get the next tough thing, which is health care. i think that's this next measurement of him. the next set of poll numbers, dylan, that i would look at to say, okay, to see where things could be the next six months are the poll numbers around labor day. >> why is that? >> well, i think at that point, you'll have nine months. you'll have the health care fight much further along down the road and put it in baseball terms, probably be more like in the seventh or eighth inning. while the good idea of how far along and how much it's going to cost, that will be there. i think that will be sort of

what his ratings will be barring some outside event. >> chris joins us from the "the washington post," author of "the fix". i will say we thought about calling this program the fix but chris got there first. god bless you. the honeymoon being over, you know, i look at this conversation and i wonder whether barack obama cares about the honeymoon. in other words, what is your sense, chris, of how he is managing his agenda and does he believe if he and raum emanuel and his kabol can hammer through what they want to hammer through this week or that week or next month or the the other month doesn't matter to them? >> i think they are planning this around the legislative schedule. raumemmanuel spent time in the house. senator obama spent time in the senate before being elected so they get the legislative calendar and get the political

reality you want to get as much done when your political capital is as high as possible. members get more jittery, some of these votes, economic stimulus vote and health care vote. a reason these are front-loaded in 2009 rather than 2010. it's easier vote to take now. still not an easy vote. republicans will hammer some of the democrats for votes like cap and trade and votes like the stimulus and votes on health care but easier vote now than in 2010. >> randy, he ran, obviously, on the politics of change. was the change from a social conservative ideology and control the republican party, to a more liberal controlled by the democratic party, or does barack obama actually have it in him or the desire in him to alter the way business is done in washington so the hatfields and mccoys are both awful people and is he separating himself from

both or the operative of the democrats now? >> i think he has inherited tremendous and economic problems and social problems. and to his credit, has -- is not ignoring them unlike -- >> sure. >> by tackling the most incredibly difficult problems have eluded solutions for years, you have to admire him. how liberal his solutions will be, we'll see. that gets out worked out in the legislative process. >> his willingness to take off his shoes and jump on the deep end of the pool. >> these are problems -- >> it's his job. bizarre as though it maybe. >> in other words that would be our elected officials that the american people chose. >> chris? >> i think the slide, if people want to call it that, in his approval ratings was predictable. >> sure. >> i went to a party on inauguration day where most of the people in this los angeles, beverly hills party were supporters of barack obama. there was a great celebration, applause. tears even. but the side conversations were

all about e well, now the real work has to begin and a couple of things they all pointed out to me was, number one, he is coming in after a president with approval ratings in the 30%. he is coming in at a time when people wanted change. that's why he won because people bought into that argument that we need to do something different. but they also knew that there were the problems that we all just talked about and that he was going to have to do something. they knew as rahm emanuel understands, as barack obama understands that there was this political capital going in. by the very nature of the situation, they wanted to tackle these problems early on and there is a compressed time period and the problems are huge. >> chuck, the question is not does he deserve -- i think those are tremendous points and i think you made it first saying, listen, he is down in the polls but also jumped into the deep end of the pool. >> right. >> day after day after day after day and tries to wrestle with

every elephant that sits in every room. the question is what is his -- what is your sense of his fortitude to continue to be honest and in direct engagements with those elephants. whether it be whatever policy. what is your sense of his ability to deal with that congress? >> well, look. on one hand, he enjoys trying to do that. he doesn't mind having the long conversation. we've seen him in one of his -- one speech that got a lot of praise was when he did that 45-minute, almost economic lecture at georgetown about two months ago and it seems to quiet down some of the first round of critics that were coming at the recovery plan, that stimulus, at what was trying to be done at treasury and all of those things and it sort of quieted critics for a while. on one hand, he enjoys having the tough conversation, as long as he can own the air waves. the problem is, as you're finding out in this legislative process is that, you know, he can't dominate the conversation

the way he could dominate things those first three or four months. so i think that's been difficult. then when you're going to get to a point where there is going to be political tradeoffs. health care i think they made the political decision they will get something. no way they will get nothing. they will get something they call health care reform, he will sign it probably november or october 15th. he will get something. the tradeoff does he have any capital left to push through an energy policy. i'll than be honest that feels like it could take another year or two. i think look at something happening overseas. secretary clinton is in india and she got a lecture from the indian government sayingary not signing on to any kind of e megs standard. tell the u.s. senate india is not going to do it, they're not going to do it either. >> no. it's what a dance this man has to do. >> mention some things he hasn't tackled where he is receiving criticism from the left. that he hasn't eliminated don't

ask, don't tell and he could with the stroke of a pen and big constituency for that. they haven't vigorously investigated possible criminal acts that the previous administration committed. he did run us an advocate of a nation of laws, if laws were broken they should be investigated and justice should take its course. things he could be doing and not doing. >> one of the things befuddled us at this meeting is the lack of investigations where you get into the narratives, whether it's with cheney and the cia or pawlson and doling out of that money last fall. these are official things we're observing on relative limited information but there isn't the investigation or the funding or the inquiry. there isn't a 21st century standard from the american people for this government. it's like we have a 21st century society and 19th century government and we need to -- the government needs to come to the next century. >> 18th century. >> you wear it well. we are back.

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the first men to land on the moon are making a pitch for mars and take the request to the president himself. president obama will honor the crew of the "apollo 11" at the white house this afternoon. on this anniversary, today, "endeavour" astronauts perform their second space walk of the mission. live pictures you're seeing here. they are also trying to fix a flooded toilet on board. not the kind of problem you want to encounter in space. federal investigators are stepping in to figure out what caused two light rail trains to

crash in san francisco over the weekend. 48 people were hurt. investigators are focusing on the train operator. they say the operator turned off the automatic controls that would have slowed down the train moments before the collision. california governor arnold schwarzenegger set to meeting with state lawmakers. the state is currently paying its bills with ious and some banks cash them and some don't. lawmakers spent the weekend ironing out the issues. in massachusetts your tax dollars set to work. a bill would require the state health department to new rules to license and monitor those who engaged in piercing any part of the human body other than the ear lobe. some people might think that is wasteful but if you have a needle with color stuck in your body, don't you want to make sure there are rules governing

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all right. perhaps one of the most interesting moments in,so far happening with jay. 40 years ago today the anniversary of the moonwalk. do we have the sound? no? anyway -- yes, we do. take a listen. >> if we don't go to mars, if we don't explore, that's the end of the human species. we are on a spacecraft 8,000 miles in diameter. it is not finite. we have to get off of it. so we've only been around a couple of hundred thousand years and we're not going to be around much longer if we don't learn how to leave the cradle where we were born. ♪ >> if we understand correctly,

either we get off of this spaceship or we're all going down. my point is in the meantime why don't we stop getting our money stolen from us on health care, manager energy and much more. carlos watson with us. >> bad things happened in the watson family. tom watson couldn't pull it out. he took everything. that won't stop us today. former governor eliot spitzer and anedy carr talks what obama has done right and toure stops by to tell us why obama's biggest gift is on the cultural side and maybe not the political side. we will tell you about that straight ahead. don't go anywhere. msnbc live with carlos watson coming ahead. we may ask dylan to stop around one of these days. >> i'm hoping. >> he hooked. he is like tom watson here!

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welcome to a brand-new hour of msnbc. i'm carlos watson. u.s. military slams release of taliban video showing a captured american showing sewing a propaganda to do everything to ensure his safe return. the gloves are off and pressure on. the president seems to be launching a full-court press on health care but somewhere are some advisers shying away from his self-imposed august deadline? six months into obama's first term how is he stacking up? we are bringing out the report cards and asking what is next. good morning. i'm carlos watson. welcome to msnbc live. we've got a power-packed lineup this monday including former new york governor eliot spitzer and former white house chief of staff andy card and tv analyst

michael sarconish. and "rolling stone" editor toure and much more to check out. first a story you will hear more from the next few hours. for the first time officials in the hometown of a captured soldier are about to speak out. the 23-year-old was taken hostage by taliban forces late last month in afghanistan. the military is calling a newly released of bergdahl video a violation of international law. george is live in his hometown of idaho. what more do we know, george? >> before bowe bergdahl joined the army he was managing an espresso machine here at this coffee house and has become the unofficial headquarters for news about private bergdahl. a lieutenant of close friends here. his family remains in seclusion.

we don't want to talk to the press but they did release this statement from the father, bob bergdahl. in about an hour, we're expecting to hear from local officials at a news conference. obviously, everyone here in town is on edge about this. that chilling video has really scared people and they're very concerned about his safety. carlos? >> george, what more do we know about how bowe was captured? do we have any more details on how he was captured by the taliban forces? >> well, the u.s. military says his disappearance on june 30th was rather mysterious. they said that he left without his headlight or flak jacket. on the video he says he fell behind a group