well, the scar was an african-american, the great henry lewis gates, and though the charges have been dropped, the incident raises that old question of racial profiling. also, how did president obama's approval ratings stacks up six months into his presidency compared to other presidents at this point. that's the question tonight. and finally, would. groucho marx refuse to be part of any health care plan that would refuse to accept him as a member? what he does to this bill. we'll get to that in the "hardball" sideshow. we begin with two united states senators at the heart of the fight for health care reform. senator orrin hatch is a utah republican and a member of the finance committee. senator, you're one of the coalitioning of the willing, so-called, one of the seven senators, four republicans and three democrats, who may well decide this health care bill. what will it take to get it into a conference with the house? >> well, as you know, both the house bill and the health committee bill in the senate were very, very partisan bills.

so it would take a real bipartisan effort to try and get something that i think everybody could support. and there's a wide disparity of what we should do. and almost everybody is for improving access, reducing cost, promoting prevention. but when you get into the details, that's where you get into trouble. and, of course, we're finding that they're pushing government mandates. those are job-killers. you know, government plan. in other words, the government control of health care and medicaid expansion. these are all very, very difficult issues that have to be examined or will put this country on its back side. >> let's listen for a second, senator, to president obama. here's what he said today. >> i know that there are those in this town who openly declare their intention to block reform. it's a familiar washington script that we have seen many times before. these opponents of reform would rather score political points than offer relief to americans

who have seen premiums double and costs grow three times faster than wages. they would maintain a system that works for the insurance and drug companies, while becoming increasingly unaffordable for families and business. >> is that helpful, senator? >> well, i like the president, and he is a very fascinating and interesting man, very bright guy, carerismatic, good speaker and all that. but let me tell you something, he hasn't rolled up his sleeves and gotten involved in this thing, and that just sounds like criticism in general nature, but doesn't hi what's going on here. we're worried about having government take over health care in this country. and if anybody believes the government is going to do better in the private sector, they've got to be nuts. look at medicare, now facing a $29 trillion unfunded debt because government is running it. medicaid? they're talking about medicaid expansion. if we go either the house bill or the health committee and the

senate's bill, my gosh, you're talking about moving all kinds of people into medicaid, which would destroy the private competitive market, and not only that, but in the end, in the end, you wouldn't be able to cover the 47 million people they claim have to be covered. the fact of the matter is that there would be 33 million not covered if you take the health committee plan without moving him into medicaid. if you move them into medicaid, you still have 15 to 20 million people who would not be covered. you know, to be honest with you, we need to work in a bipartisan way. this is one-sixth of the american economy. and all we're here from the president is more taxes, more government, more spending and more budgetary deficits. and that's why when the budget committee chairman, doug elmendorff, who was appointed by democrats, by the way, and a terrific guy, very honest, when he came out and said, look, all you're going to do is add more to the deficit, add more spending, and in the end, you're not going to do as much as

you're doing now. in all honesty, we've got to work together. you know, bipartisan way. if we're going to solve one-sixth of the american economy's problems. >> if you're going to get young people and healthy people to join this health care system. i'm for it myself. my kids are in their 20s. if they join, they would be healthy and young they would be a good bet for the health care system. what about trying that together like something you have on the hill like a credit union. something that's a cooperative without -- it would have full transparency. you go into it, it would be a shared risk. a lot of healthy people in it. it might be a good deal, in fact, for everybody. what about that kind of a cooperative as a compromise between no public option and a public option? >> well, senator conrad from north dakota has come up with this co-ops approach. it's much easier spoken of in generalities than it is, you know, in putting into practice. but, you know, the democrats are insisting that there has to be what they call a public option or a government-run health care

system. and they may be willing to go with something like co-ops, but senator shimmer, who seems to have a lot of control in the democratic side, indicated that from new york, he indicated that he would not go along with it unless -- and he's speaking for the liberal democrats as a whole, they would not go along with that unless there was a federal co-ops plan run right here in washington. he said we would agree to -- the democrats would agree to appointing the board, giving them the money, and letting them be on their own. now, if anybody believes that, they've got to be nuts. that's all i can say. you know that they -- what they want to do, and let's just be brutally frank about it, they want to come up with a system that pushes you towards a single-payer system. single payer means the government decides everything. now, like i say, we see how the government has solved that medicare, medicaid with the debts and the debt structure, and the unfunded liabilities. if it you think government is going to do it, my gosh, you

haven't looked at the past. >> okay, senator. thanks for coming on. can you throw me a bone by saying that you're headed towards voting for sotomayor for the supreme court? >> well, i'm still undecided. literally, it's one of the most difficult problems i've had, because i want to be fair. i like her very much. i like her family. she has a great life story. but i've got to admit, there are a lot of troubling things about her testimony that have really bothered me. so i will have to make up my mind by next tuesday, and i'm reading the cases, i'm doing everything i can to be fair. you know, i want to be fair. but on the other hand, i've got to say, there are a lot of things that bother me. >> thank you very much senator orrin hatch of utah. joining us now, north dakota's democratic senator kent conrad, the budget committee chairman. i was asking just a moment ago, i was asking senator hatch, a republican, about the idea of having some kind of a co-ops or a credit union model like you have on the hill for all of the employees on the hill.

i used to be a member of that, the credit union, where everybody kicks in, and you get a lot of young people involved in it, so it's a healthy business. how do you flesh out that option, sir? >> we have been doing a lot of discussion about that. i think it's developing in a very comprehensive way. that you have a cooperative approach, so it's not government-run, government-controlled. it's membership-run, membership-controlled, just as you described with the credit union here on the hill. so i think it is a very much a live option. we see a group health out in washington working very well. 600,000 people performing extremely well in an unreformed insurance market, and what the -- what the experts have been telling us the last two days in a reform market, those cooperative models could even be more effective. >> well, let's talk about the other piece that seems to be the problem. the general financing, the plugging of the hole, if you will, fiscally here. have you found the $200 billion?

>> you know, we've got a number of pieces that could completely fill that hole. this afternoon is largely been dedicated to analysis of those various options. we have had today some of the leading actuaries in the country helping us analyze these options, as well as the joint committee on taxation. i think it's been an outstanding day. i think we're getting quite close now to a comprehensive agreement. >> when is the schedule look like it's going to reach fruition? do you think you might have a deal by tonight, late tonight? >> you know, we have said all along that we can't impose these kind of artificial deadlines. we'll be ready when we're ready. so much of this is out of our hands, because we come up with options, they go to the congressional budget office for analysis and scoring. and we don't know when they will come back with an answer. just like we don't know when joint tax will come back.

we keep sending them variations to try to meet concerns that members have. and we just have to let that process play out. what's most important here is not that we meet any specific deadline. it is that we get this right. we've got lots of time left in this year to pass meaningful health care reform. the critical test is, will it be right? will it stand the test of history? >> is the president and are his people doing the right thing these days? are they helpful to you in getting a deal? >> yes. the president had me down last friday, spent almost an hour with him. we had a very -- i thought constructive discussion about the options before us. i think they're doing a very good job of keeping the pressure on, because, you know, they're quite right. work expands to fill the time, and if there is not somebody pressing to reach conclusion, you never do reach conclusion around here. so i think they're playing it about right, and i think they have been very constructive.

>> you've got four republicans in the coalition of the willing -- senator hatch, of course, senator grassley included and snow included. how do you guarantee to them that whatever deal they go along with for the senate version, that it will largely be protected in conference. that this won't be a bait and switch with the liberals in the house. >> boy, that chris, is a great, great question. because that is very much on their minds, as you can imagine. and what they have been promised is a place at the table, that they'll be a real conference committee, and they will be there. and they will be fully represented, and they'll have a chance to just as they have throughout this process, contribute fully to the discussion and the debate. >> you know, you're a great guy. i really appreciate as an american the work you guys are doing out there, trying to get this finished. thank you so much, kent conrad of north dakota. coming up, remember when john mccain had to correct a woman at a campaign event who said that barack obama is a muslim? well, it's getting a lot worse

out there. you won't believe it. you thought the election was over. it's not over yet for some people. wait until you see what happened in delaware. the state of delaware, when a republican congressman, mike hasslel, the former governor, had a woman stand up and basically waved her birth certificate claiming -- well, you've got to watch and see what she says. and how big a problem is this out there in crazy land? you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. tools are uncomplicated? nothing complicated about a pair of 10 inch hose clamp pliers. you know what's complicated?

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the former governor of delaware held a town hall meeting and got more than he bargained for. >> congressman castle, i have a birth certificate here from the united states of america saying i am an american citizen with a seal on it signed by a doctor and two hospital administers, my parents, my date of birth, the time and date. january 20th, and i want to know why are you people ignoring -- >> yeah! >> he is not an american citizen. he is a citizen of kenya. i am an american. my father fought in world war ii, one of the greatest generations in the pacific theater.

and i don't want this -- i want my country back! >> he is a citizen of the united states. this man is a citizen of the united states. [ inaudible ]. >> i think we should all stand up and give -- [ inaudible ]. pledge of allegiance to that wonderful flag for the people that sacrificed our lives for our freedom. everybody stand up! >> all right. do you want me to leave?

[ inaudible ] [ inaudible ]. >> and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all. >> thank you. now we can get back to health care. >> well, they're just giving the pledge of allegiance apropos so the nut case going on there. nutty questions about the president's birth certificate are being raised not only at republican town meetings, but also in congress where a group of republicans are sponsoring a bill to require future presidential candidates to provide their birth certificates. one of those republicans is congressman john campbell of california. congressman, thank you for joining us. the reason this is fascinating is that meeting. but let me tell you the prime sponsor of this, your colleague bill posey of indiana. he said i can't swear on a stack of bibles whether he's a citizen or not. he's talking about the president of the united states. his spokesman says if he would

show a birth certificate. an authentic birth certificate, we could stop this. and congresswoman blackburn says people in her district, in tennessee, are losing faith in the american system because they don't believe this guy is a citizen. what is going on that so many americans doubt the obvious, that barack obama is a citizen to the point that you felt it necessary to co-sponsor this crazy proposal? >> first of all, chris, we'll get to the proposal in a minute. the proposal is not crazy. the proposal is just looking forward, and i want to get to that, but wouldn't you like to put all this to rest? that's what this proposal is about. >> how does this put it to rest? >> this controversy -- let me first say this controversy is not new. there were questions about john mccain. had john mccain become president, i remember then senator obama had to come out and say i don't think john mccain's eligibility to become president is an issue. he was able to put it to rest, but the fact is if john mccain had become president, you would be having this issue on the other side.

if you want to go back, people thought barry goldwater was not qualified because he was born in the arizona territory and mitt romney's father, george romney, was not eligible to be president because he was born in mexico. so this is not a new issue. what this bill does is very simple. it's only looking forward, as you suggested, 2012 and beyond, and it just -- let me back up. you know, the constitution, as you know, there's -- most elements of the constitution have implementing legislation. this particular element of the constitution does not, and this is just implementing legislation. just saying before you run for president, let's make sure -- let's have you substantiate that you meet the constitutional requirements, that you're 35 years old -- why is that crazy though, chris? >> congressman, nice try. what you're doing, it's a nice try with your argument. i'm laughing with you only to this extent because i know it's a nice try. what you're doing is appeasing the nut cases.

as you just pointed out, this won't prove or disprove whether barack obama is a citizen. let me show you his birth certificate. that's the way to deal with it. mail this birth certificate to the wacko wing of your party to see it and say i agree with this, it's over. what you're doing here is doing what the republicans did after roosevelt got elected to a third and fourth term. you say you can't do it again. you're verifying the paranoia out there. you're saying to the people, you're right, that's a reasonable question. whether he's a citizen or not. is it a reasonable question, congressman? do you believe it's a reasonable question whether barack obama is a legitimate native-born american? is that a legitimate question? >> chris, isn't it a legitimate question, and let me ask you, isn't it -- >> here is his birth certificate. >> chris, chris, anybody who runs for president, you, me, whoever, that we meet the constitutional requirements, 35 years of age, been a resident of country for 15 years, and the natural-born citizen. don't you think anybody who runs

for president should -- wouldn't you want to know that? that they meet those requirements before they run? what's wrong with that? >> do you have any doubts, congressman, about the authentic native birth in this country of our president? do you have any doubts? >> chris, my -- it doesn't -- >> do you have any doubts. >> it doesn't matter if i have doubts or not. >> oh, it matters. it's a simple question. >> i agree with -- >> no, no. you are feeding the wacko wing of your party. do you believe that barack obama is a legitimate native-born american or not? >> that is not what this bill is about, chris. >> no, what do you believe? >> as far as i know, yes, okay? >> as far as you know? i'm showing you his birth certificate. >> i'm looking at a camera right now. >> you want me to mail it to you? >> no. chris -- >> it's on the screen now. take a close look. it says barack hussein obama. he was born in honolulu. august 4th, 1961. is that a state, yes, it was.

his mother is caucasian. his fare is african. what more do you want? he is male. he was born at 7:24 p.m. on the island of oahu. who more do you want? you say as far as you know. you are playing to the crazies. >> chris, what is wrong -- >> just tell me -- >> no, you tell me, because that bill is not about barack obama. >> well, then what about you? what are you about? i'm asking you congressman -- you know what, you have a lot of authenticity. you're a u.s. congressman. say it now. he's a legitimate president of the united states. he was born in this country. >> he is president of the united states, and -- >> no, was he born in this country? >> yes, i believe so. >> i'm glad we're making progress here. >> but -- >> but the reason your colleague -- you co-sponsored a bill by this guy posey. posey's spokesman said we want to see an authentic birth certificate from this guy. his people said -- this is what the congressman said. i can't swear on a stack of bibles whether he is a

legitimate american. you are playing to the wacko ring. i'm glad you left the band of merry men and women who are out there jumping up at hearings of people like mike castle who is a normal person and raising what is really not a good question to raise. now, the reason i bring this up with you is you say this will put the issue to rest. do you think barring a president from serving more than two terms put to rest whether franklin roosevelt should have been elected a third and fourth term? do you think it really put it to rest or was it a way of whacking the guy out the door? >> no. he did serve more than two terms. >> why did you guys pass a constitutional amendment to say he couldn't do that again? to say let's not have in happen again. >> what we're saying here is let's not have questions about it again. as i said -- >> there are no questions. >> no, no -- >> here is his birth certificate. where are the questions? >> but, chris, the questions -- even those questions will go away if there's a process because if john mccain had been elected, people would be

questioning him, too. >> congressman, one last question. >> sure. >> do you believe by passing a bill that no more presidents, no future president can be elected without showing a birth certificate will put to rest whether barack obama was born in the united states or not? >> i believe -- >> do you think that will put it to rest? >> yes. probably will. >> how will it put it to rest? >> because -- well, because he will probably run again in 2012. is that what you mean or what? >> you're saying he has to show a birth certificate to get re-elected president? is that what you're saying? >> chris, it's about going forward. okay? it is about ensuring that anyone who runs for president meets the constitutional requirements so we don't have that problem. you have a major in the united states army now saying he's not going to serve because -- there's a lot of this rippling out there, and this would put it to rest in the future. not now, you're correct. >> let me tell you how to put it to rest. get a copy of barack obama's birth certificate, which you didn't have to be on this show to get a copy if you had any interest in finding it because

before you signed onto this bill i would have recommended to you if i were one of your staffers find out if barack obama has a birth certificate that shows he's born in this country before we proceed in this wacky direction. this will send a signal to the whole word if the u.s. passes a bill and asks the president to sign it that says no future president can get in the door without proving he's a citizen, i think he might get the message he's been profiled as a suspect in this case. >> let me have you think about whether it's wacky to say you shouldn't have to prove you meet the constitutional requirements before you run. i'm not sure that's not -- >> i want to see the letters that you send to your constituents and i want to know whether you tell them, you know, sir, i have a copy of his birth certificate. we really don't need it for this president, but i understand the need for future presidents, but i just don't want to see people playing to the nut wing, and you say you're not doing that. >> absolutely not doing that. it's the opposite, chris. it will shut this stuff down.

>> no, it won't. >> all right. well, we can disagree to disagree on that. >> if this shuts it down, i will be shocked. thank you. you're a great guy to come on the show. congressman john campbell who does believe, watch the are he run at 7:00, he does believe that barack obama is a native-born american, so those wackos in your district out there, don't vote for this guy because he fundamentally disagrees with you. i'm just kidding. up next, what does groucho marx have to do with the debate over health care reform? stick around. you'll find out in the "sideshow." i think we just had a "sideshow." you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. is your haircolor perfect 10? does it drip? or comb through root to tip? does the process feel endless? or 10 minute express? does it disrespect your hair? or better protect it? are your grays a fright? or out of sight? bottom line -- is your haircolor the glossy, gorgeous perfection you've always dreamed of? if it is, then it has to be perfect 10 by nice 'n easy. the color that changes everything.

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back to "hardball." time for the official "sideshow." first up, if barack obama has to bet his life or has bet his life, as groucho marx used to say, on health care, well, his enemies are out there playing a different brand of groucho. paladins of the right like bill crystal who pushed dan quayle, the iraq war, and sarah palin on us and who led the assault on

the clinton health care plan 15 years ago, he now says he plans to kill this year's attempt, literally crystal says kill it. this was posted on a "huffington post" blog likening such sentiments to the great groucho himself. ♪ i don't know what they have to say, it makes no difference anyway, whatever it is, i'm against it ♪ ♪ no matter what it is or who commenced it, i'm against it ♪ ♪ your proposition may be good, but let's have one thing understood, whatever it is, i'm against it ♪ ♪ and even when you changed it or condensed it, i'm against it ♪ >> well, that's how some of the writer -- by the way, for those who want to get the dvd of that, "horse feathers." time for tonight's "big number." if you think republicans always represent the rich and democrats the working class poor, here is an interesting trend line.

started back in 1995, just one-fifth of the country's top 25 richest congressional districts were represented by democrats. that's the top 25 were auto republicans. today in 2009 how many of those top 25 money districts are held by democrats? 14 of the 25. the significance of this right now, this democratic crowd could prove an obstacle to the white house's plan to raise rich people's taxes to pay for health care. they're going after the people that, well, they're biting the hand that fed them. think about it. you can bet the rich who voted for obama in that 25 richest districts, 14 districts now controlled by democrats might have some food for thought in terms of supporting the latest health care plan. that's tonight's biggest number. up next, what does it say about race and justice in this country when henry louis gates himself, a prominent african-american professor at harvard is arrested trying to break into his own house, well, get into his house? we'll get to that next. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

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melissa rehberger. the senate voted for $2 million to fund further projection of the f-22 fighter jets. the senate says the program is too expensive. warnings for the washington, d.c. area for a massive defense exercise. planes from the air force, civil air control and coast guard will be crisscrossing the skies over the capitol beginning at midnight. astronauts performed a series of robotic hand offs today. tomorrow they'll start putting together the station's new japanese laboratories. on wall street, stocks had a

win and the dow added 66 points, and the s&p gained 3.5, and the nasdaq up 7 points much now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." henry louis gates is a prominent black scholar and he's a harvard professor. pretty well-known fellow. i know who he is. i guess somebody in the police department doesn't know who he is or a neighbor doesn't know who he is. last week police responded to a call that his house near the university was being broken into. it turns out it was gates himself just returning from an overseas trip. during the incident the officer and gates both contend they were being mistreated by the other person involved. that was the officer blaming him and him blaming the officer. the officer arrested gates for, quote, exhibiting loud and tumultuous behavior. directed at a uniformed police officer. here is a picture of professor gates in handcuffs outside his

house. today the charges were dropped. both he and the police agreed to drop it and the release reads this incident should not be read as one that demeans the character and reputation of professor gates or the character of the cambridge police department. this is a just resolution to an unfortunate set of circumstances. does this shed light on how african-american men are treated by police? by our justice system? clarence page is a friend of ours, always here, a pal of mine going way back. >> way back. >> "chicago tribune" columnist still our newspapers, and michael is a professor at one of the great universities in the world, georgetown. sir, thank you. >> thank you, my friend. >> we weren't there. >> right. >> let's agree. none of us were there, but what do you think this is about? >> none of this makes sense, first of all. we know skip gates. 58 years old, about 5'7". he walks with a cane. >> he's got a neighbor that doesn't recognize him. she called 911. got a cop in there saying there's a burglary in progress.

he shows up, officer crowley, i love everybody is irish. he shows up and is told he's a burglar by the neighbor. it isn't all his fault, by any means. >> the only person in the neighborhood who didn't know who he was. unbelievable. >> you're lettered. the neighbor didn't know who he was. the cop didn't know who he was. what do you think happened and what does it say about america to say anything at all, michael? >> absolutely. first of all, your neighbor doesn't know you. you don't have to be famous, just your neighbor. >> that's my point. you don't know the guy that lives next door to you? she saw his profile and called in. this guy looks like he's going to beat me down. >> i don't understand it. she knew her neighbor was a african-american. he had a certain look. she sees a guy with a certain look. she wasn't profiling or what was going on? >> here is the point. america profiles though, chris. the thing is the guy -- the cop going to the house when told -- if we're to believe professor gates that he showed him his i.d. he told him he lived in the house. i think what it was about is an

uppity negro syndrome. let me be real with you. i think the fact that gates had had the temperty to signify on this guy. >> he did say i want to see your badge number. >> i'm saying black men don't challenge white policemen. skip himself has said in an interview -- >> no. >> there are not many -- i don't know many. >> i'm trying to think this through as a white guy. i have had my kids leave, whatever, there's no key. what happened to the key? i went through a window. if a montgomery county cop saw me going in my own window and -- >> i have -- >> and asked me for my i.d. card, it wouldn't have offended me probably, it would have ticked me off slightly, probably not, because i would have been glad he was on the job. in other words, wasn't the action, it was the signal. >> when these people show up at your house, racial profiling is dangerous because they can't distinguish the criminal from the guy who calls the police on the criminal. >> play god here. play god. play aclu. what should have happened here? >> i think, first of all, this should shine a spotlight on a bigger problem. maybe it's hwb, housing while black. maybe --

that's a new category of racial profiling. >> don't just arouse -- add to this. >> what does skip gates say? 1 million black men are in jail every day, i just became one of them. it forces us to see there are a lot of black guys who don't deserve to be treated -- mistreated the way professor gates was. and because he was famous, he was able -- a lot of guys who are not famous -- >> okay. you're saying prisons are filled with people who didn't commit the crime they're accused of. >> there are a lot of people who have not committed the crime. there are a lot of white guys committing crimes who never get profiled and, therefore, get away with it. >> let's narrow it. because i don't think -- you can do what you want, you're a professor. let me ask you this. this situation here, what do we do about it? i talked to people i know here who have said to me, you get stopped for speeding, everybody occasionally in their life generally might speed. some of those might get caught, okay? >> okay. >> they don't always ask you to open your trunk. i hear in case of an african-american that's very likely to happen. >> oh, sure.

all the time. >> it's happened to him on i-95. >> exactly right. >> pulled over -- >> exactly right. >> pulled over, walk the line. i'm a teetotaler. baptist minister. i told him i'm a phd student at princeton, and he said, yeah, i'm the fricking president. >> no! >> he said to you i'm the president of the united states? >> i'm the president of the united states because i told him i was a ph.d. student at princeton. that was in 1986. and before that i was beat down in detroit, michigan. and since then in princeton and other places. my point is, as clarence can testify, as i can testify, this happens repeatedly. i'm going to tell you this, if you want to know. white america would not stand by if this happened to their kids, to their husbands, to their children, to their men folk constantly being herded up, looked at -- >> what happened here? what is this you're saying happened here? >> i'm saying skip gates, a famous black professor -- >> what did the police officer do wrong? >> first of all, when professor gates showed him he lived where he lived and -- showed him his i.d., that should have been it. >> no, this is in dispute, whether he agreed to give him

the i.d. # >> when he steps out on his porch -- >> let's get back to the facts. >> here is the fact -- >> if you want to play lawyer, fine, i'm asking you as an academic what we're learning. the question i'm asking, if he cooperated with the police officer, he didn't. if he said -- >> wait a minute. >> when the guy asked for it, that's a problem. is the cop entitled to ask you for an i.d. card? >> he is. but i'm saying -- it's not a matter of trust. a guy with a ph.d. from cambridge -- >> he didn't know that. the cop didn't know that. >> you know this though. >> i know it now. >> you know it now. >> this is last thursday. >> i'm saying to you this is my point -- >> yeah. >> a black guy with all that credentials can still be mistreated -- or assumed not to have -- >> i'm trying to be clinical. what did the cop do wrong? >> you have six cops on the scene at a professor's house. 5'7", 58 years old. don't you find -- >> let's just try -- let me -- okay. let me try this. how about the police got a call from gates' house and they didn't respond. you'd read that they're not looking out for the property of a black guy. >> i'm not going to be grateful

because the police are doing their job. >> and he wouldn't show his i.d. >> kept asking him for his i.d., according to him. i have reason to believe him. >> because you know him. >> cop doesn't know him. you're a colleague of the guy. assume everybody is a criminal unless proven otherwise. and we always have these stories on black guys, not white guys. >> why do you think they both agreed to drop the case? >> we're trying to dissect something where we weren't even there. what does common sense tell you? that skip gates refused to show his i.d. to a cop at his own house? no. look, chris, the whole point is this is a racial eruption of the sort that gets america talking about what we're not normally capable of talking about. >> let me try this by both you gentlemen, friends of mine. could it be we're all carrying lots of baggage. >> yes, we are. crime statistics and stuff like that all the time, and he's carrying the baggage i've been mistreated one too many times, and that's the one too many times?

>> we all carry baggage. i have had people say, well, why aren't you concerned about black on black crime, black killing black folks, but the fact is we are concerned about it, but people really get concerned though when it's a black/white or white/black because that's what we've not resolved. and that's why we've got to talk about that. >> and if white guys were being mistreated this routinely and being murdered as they are by policemen, this would not be acceptable. that's why president obama needs to use his bully pulpit to explore race, not run from it, not avoid it, but engage it. >> i think he engaged it by getting elected last year. >> not enough. >> he's off, he's free. >> i got brothers in prison. >> and they are -- well, it will them to get a good lawyer. thank you. up next, new poll shows president obama trailing other modern presidents at the six-month mark. we'll see why. well, he's trying to do some

things and that sometimes causes trouble. we'll get back to that and what is it going to do to his health care reform bill? how his numbers are doing. the politics question up next. this is "hardball" on msnbc. [ engine revving ] [ engine powers down ] gentlemen, you booked your hotels on orbitz. well, the price went down, so you're all getting a check thanks. for the difference. except for you -- you didn't book with orbitz, so you're not getting a check. well, i think we've all learned a valuable lesson today.

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president's numbers. politico's new poll shows trust in the president to solve these big problems we're facing has dropped since march. just over half trust him to find the right answers. that's compared to two-thirds back in march, no surprise there. let me go to you, jim vandehei, your news nose. is the bill headed towards greatness and possible conclusion and a solution, or is it headed towards the dumpster of history? >> i think we're not going to know until september. they're not going to be able to get this stuff through and get real clarity on these bills going into the august break. what happens in august is what matters. there will be millions of dollars spent and most will be aimed at moderate to conservative democrats who are very uneasy with more government spending and too big of a health care plan. if you look at almost all the polling, including the one at susan's paper that's out today, he is losing a lot of support among moderate, conservative democrats. and those are the people he's got to be concerned about, because he needs that group of members to get a good bill, i

think, through the house and get something through the senate that everyone can vote for. because he's not going to get any republican support, or if he does, it's going to be very minimal. >> susan, how does it look for that coalition of the willing. those four republicans and three democrat moderates? >> we've been waiting, holding our breath for about a month to come out with a deal that's acceptable to them. i think it's still possible. if there's going to be an abruptly bipartisan bill, it will come from those finance committee members. but as each day goes by, it's clear how hard that is going to be and how much -- how more likely it is that we'll end up with a package for the real effort is to hold both moderate democrats, fiscally conservative ones, and some of the liberal democrats, which would like a much more far-reaching bill than they're likely to get. >> let's take a look at these approval ratings for the president. you can see that truman was at the top, mighty at 82% when he came in.

he came in right after roosevelt was killed, basically, or i doed. but then you see the numbers dropping down, precipitously, the last really good one was nixon at 65%. are we just in an error right now where it's tough, if you want to do something as president, like obama's trying to do, jim, that it's hard to keep up that 60%? >> it might be. he's not lacking for power right now or popularity. he has it in the polls and tremendous power in washington. the problem for him is money. with deficits recently going over $1 trillion, you've seen a big shifts in policy. and i'm not talking one or two polls. virtually every single poll where people are growing uneasy about the size of deficits, they don't want more spending. they don't understand why people have to move so quickly on a big health care plan. and he's trying to do all this while people are trying to digest whether or not the stimulus bill, which the public was told has to be big, that has to move quickly, why that hasn't worked and killed the

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politico's jim vandehei. susan, you first. sarah palin going to be out of office for a few days, heading down to the lore 48. your hunch as to how well she'll do? >> we'll hear from her at the reagan library on the first week of august 8th, i guess.

she says she's going to tweet a lot. but i guess the question is, is she going to set up a kind of structure with advisers and staff and people she listens to beyond her husband, todd, so she seems to have kind of a coherent strategy going forward? i don't think that's one of the wraps on her right now. >> jim vandehei, will she become a force in the republican party between now and the next election? >> who the heck knows? she's probably the most unpredictable person in politics right now. she undoubtedly could be a force if she choose to. whether she puts together an infrastructure to allow her to do that is a big, open question. she's extraordinarily popular with republicans. she can raise a lot of money. so she has a lot of the attributes that could make her a big, big player in republican politics, but she has to make that decision on herself. like, what does she want to do with this political career. and it's not sure she knows what she wants to do right now. >> susan, it seems to me like she has the power, maybe not to get elected president, but to set the direction.

we had a subject on this show about the what cos that are questioning the citizenship of barack obama. there are some only narrowly saying, in terms of the normal relationship that we discuss, that honestly think barack obama somehow snuck into the presidency seat, that he's a foreigner. >> i think sarah palin may see her base as somewhat different than the nutty fringe. the fact is, one of the thing wes like about sarah palin, that makes her appealing, is that she doesn't stick to the republican line. she's going to be -- i assume she's going to be unpredictable in that way. to be able to get a lot of attention and the republicans in washington will not be able to control what she says. that's why she'll be worth listening to her. >> and her support doesn't only come from the fringe of the republican party. >> we hope she comes to "hardball" and sits right here. thank you, susan page and jim vandehei. join us tomorrow night at 5:00

and 7:00 eastern for more "hardbal "hardball." countdown starts now with david shuster in for keith olbermann. which of these stories will you be talking about tomorrow? full-court press. the head of wednesday night's prime-time news conference, president obama still on offense. pushing his health care plan and stressing his self-imposed deadline. >> if you don't set a deadline in this town, nothing happens. there's a reason why we haven't had health care reform in 50 years. >> it could have something to do with this leaked internal rnc memo. quote, the republican national committee will engage in every activity we can to slow down this mad rush. they think they can control the clock? they don't even have possession of the ball. now fraud charges at the cia. a federal judge rules cia officials were not honest in protecting the actions of the covert agents facing an illegal eavesdropping lawsuit. crank calls gone wild.

the brash cranksters who dupe hotel guests into destructive acts, all for the enjoyment of their internet followers. but have the jokes gone too far? >> you need to break a window, ma'am. baseline hysteria, all the range among the gop's constituents. the legitimacy of the president's bird record. >> why are these people ignoring his birth certificate? he is not an american citizen. >> and the other great fight within the gop. rnc michael steele says joe the plumber helped the gop get its groove back, yet megan mccain called him a dumbass. the polarizing power of joe wurzelbacher and samuel black. >> i have lots of issues.