all that and more now on "countdown." good evening from new york. i'm david shuster. keith olbermann has the night off. as the old saying goes, there are two things you never want to see being made -- laws and sausages. in our fifth story on the countdown, the making of laws and sausages have collided tonight in the plans to delay and defeat president obama's health care plans. the president pushed for health care overhaul. from the rose garden, president obama said critics of this plan are sticking to a familiar script. >> i know there are those who in this town who openly declare their intention to block reform. it's a familiar washington script that we've seen many times before. these opponents of reform would rather score political points than offer relief to americans who have seen premiums double and costs grow three times faster than wages. they would maintain a system that works for the insurance and the drug companies while becoming increasingly unaffordable for families and

for businesses. >> in an interview with meredith vieira on the "today" show, president obama said that his opponents seem to be more concerned about defeating him than in helping americans who don't have health insurance. >> this is absolutely important to me. but this is not as important to me as it is to the people who don't have health care. i've got health care. this isn't as important to me as the family that's going bankrupt because they got a bunch of medical bills that they thought the insurance companies would cover. it turned out they weren't covered. so, yes, absolutely, i am deep ly invested in getting this thing done. but this isn't washington sport. this isn't about who's up and who's down. this is about solving an enormous problem for the american people. >> helping americans without health insurance, said mr. obama, is why he has put reform on a fast track. >> before this august recess, why is that deadline so

important to you? why even set a deadline? >> well, because if you don't set a deadline in this town, nothing happens. the default in washington is inaction and inertia. and there's a reason why we haven't had health care reform in 50 years. >> missing the august deadline would appear to be the entire plan of the republicans who don't seem to have an actual health care plan of their own, other than to defeat president obama's. the republican's message man, alex castilano, set out a list of instructions for party members this month. among them, quote, if we can slow this down, we can defeat it and advance real reform that would actually help. key message point, we've got to slow down the obama experiment with our health. house majority leader steny hoyer dismissed republicans who would suggest that democrats are rushing health care reform through congress. quoting him, in the last 18 months, we've been discussing extensively, this is not a rush to judgment. this afternoon, president obama summoned conservative blue dog democrats to the white house for

a meeting. some blue dogs in the house have indicated they would like to see negotiations on health care reform continue into the fall. earlier tonight, congressman barron hill of indiana said important strides were made today with regards to health care reform, but he did not give specifics. in the senate, one of the key blue dogs is finance committee chairman, max baucus. "the washington post" reports on its front page that health-related companies and its employers gave the democratic chairman's political committees nearly $1.5 million in 2007 and 2008 when baucus began holding hearings and making preparations for this year's reform debate. lots to talk about with our own political analyst, jonathan alter. and a senior editor with "newsweek" magazine, jonathan, good evening. it no longer seems to be just senator demint, president obama is now pitting all republicans against americans who don't have health insurance. might the republicans come to regret turning health care reform into a political fight with the president?

>> well, you know they don't seem to regret much of anything, as they're on the way over the cliff. what demint said, where he said that this would be barack obama's waterloo, that they would "break the president" on health care, this was music to the white house's ears. this is just what they were hoping for. the republicans have walked into a big trap, where by seeming to politicize it, by trying to make it about making barack obama fail, they've gotten on the wrong side of the american people. does that mean that this is all a shoo-in now, of course not? there's a lot of tough sledding ahead, tough negotiations. but the president caught a break this week in the way the republicans handled themselves. >> on that point, since the republicans have made it clear that defeating the plan is their only goal, and as you point out, that plays into the president's hands, does the measure then only have to pass for president obama to win politically? >> no, i think it has to be a fairly decent bill.

it can't be cosmetic reform. but will it be a bill that pleases all progressives? of course not. everybody is going to have to compromise, and we might end up with something like the energy bill that just came out of the house the other week. kind of a big, hairy, ugly piece of legislation that nobody really likes, but that does advance the debate and that can then be amended some. you know, ted kennedy wrote a cover story in "newsweek" this week where he said, look, you don't get it all right necessarily, the first time. when they did schip, for instance, people were not happy with the bill. here we are, several years later, and it's insuring 7 million kids. so you don't want, as the president says, the perfect to be the enemy of the good. it's not going to be a perfect bill, but if he puts some points on the board, if he gets something through, which i think is quite likely, there will be huge political benefits for him.

>> jonathan, what happens if the legislation does get pushed back until after the august recess? >> well, it was always going to get pushed back until then, because september was always when there was going to be what they called the house/senate conference committee, where the house and the senate come together and try to reconcile the differences in the two bills. they'd hoped to get the first part of the process completed by august 8th, where the house passed their bill and the senate passed their bill. it now looks like that probably won't happen until the beginning of september. but the basic timetable of having about six week where is the house and the senate resolve their differences in september and early october is pretty much the same as it's always been. you're going to see very, very intense lobbying in august and in september, as everybody weighs in on this, but i think this thing is far enough down the tracks right now that it's going to be hard to derail. the only ones who can do it are the conservative democrats. the republicans simply don't have the votes to do so. >> and on that point, jonathan, if democrats in congress cannot get their act together to pass effective health care reform in

the next few months, with the overwhelming support of a democratic president and the control of both houses of congress, will it ever happen? >> well, ever's a long time, but this is the best chance that there's been for a substantial health care reform since 1912, when theodore roosevelt first put national health insurance in a major party platform, in the bull moose platform, and it's come up over and over again in the years since. the american medical association was totally against it. this time, the ama has come out for it, a number of the other interest groups are for it, so the odds are pretty good, david. >> jonathan alter of msnbc and "newsweek." jonathan, thanks as all for coming on. >> thanks, david. >> you're welcome. the lack of a republican plan to actually reform health care, not just defeat the president's effort to do so, perhaps best embodied by party chairman, michael steele. yesterday, chairman steele seemed to follow the sausage-making memo word for

word, if not step by step. and on msnbc this morning, when steele gave four suggestions for bringing out health care costs, joe scarborough tried to point out that those suggestions would not be enough to contain exploding health care costs. >> those four issues will not cut costs. >> you're absolutely wrong. >> we cut costs -- >> joe -- >> are you hear telling me that if we do those four things -- hold on a second. >> please, spare me. >> spare you? >> yes. >> give me a cbo estimate. >> do you mean to tell me if you do tort reform, you're not going to cut costs? >> you'll cut costs, you're not listening to my question. >> they will cut costs. >> except the four things cited by michael steele will not cut health care costs nearly enough. chairman steele did admit yesterday that policy is something he does not do. also, how can you really trust

someone on health care who does not even know what kind of health care insurance he actually has? >> what type of health insurance do you have? do you get that through the rnc? >> yep. through my employer. >> what company is it? >> blue cross/blue shield, i believe. >> all right. chairman michael steele -- >> or maybe not. >> not sure? >> i think it's blue cross/blue shield. >> for more on the effort to block health care reform, let's turn to former chief of staff from the senate finance committee when it was chaired by the late senator daniel patrick moynihan. lawrence, good to see you. would the republican's launch have more credibility on this issue if, a, the party's chairman knew what kind of health insurance he had, and b, if he did policy? >> wow. it reminds you of a time when the first president bush was caught campaigning for election in 1992 and not knowing the price of milk in america. for michael steele, he couldn't have appeared more out of touch with people who are worried about preserving their health insurance, people who don't have it, people who have fought hard to get it.

and know exactly who their carriers are and what their deductibles are and how much they spend every year. that was as bad a moment as you could ask for. and watching joe scarborough take him apart was a unique pleasure. watching a republican like joe go after that party chairman better than i think any of us could have. >> lawrence, there's also an rnc party memo who says the entire goal of the exercise is to slow this sausage-making process down in order to defeat it. not fix it, defeat it. is that the ugly truth if there is no actual republican health care plan? >> there isn't one that has any kind of consensus within the republican party. certainly, chuck grassley, the lead republican in the senate finance committee is in favor of all sorts of the obama plan elements, but just not all of it. and there are others, ron wyden, democrat on the finance committee has a bill that no one's paying any attention to that does have real bipartisan support.

but there isn't something that republicans are rallying around, saying this is our alternative. and they are now in a tactical position, where they don't really need one, because the obama plan is on a curve downward in popularity in the polls. everyone's noticing that in both parties. and so the republicans really can stand back and watch obama, in effect, campaign for health care against himself. that's what happened to hillary clinton last time around. what happened was, hillary clinton was unable in her campaign to sell the plan to the public. she was unable to do that. and the more she tried, the more the popularity of her plan went down. so we've seen this before. >> and on that point of resistance also coming from democrats. as we mentioned, "the washington post" reports that finance committee chairman max baucus has received nearly $1.5 million from health-related companies and their employees. as a former chief of staff of the finance committee, does that seem to you to be a huge

conflict of interest? >> well, look, he was running for re-election in this last election, in montana, which is not an easy state for democrats to hold on to. i've worked with him when i was on the finance committee, worked closely with him. his integrity has never been questioned in this area. and you cannot simply, in my experience, match up someone's campaign contradiction contribution and think you then know what they're willing to do legislatively. charlie rangel, chairman of the house ways and means committee, the counterparts of the finance committee, he represents new york city, where the number one industry is actually health care. not a lot of people quite realize that. he has a lot of health care contributions, and he has gotten a bill out of his committee which a lot of people in the health care sector don't like and some do like. you know, and chairman baucus is now in favor of things that are far to the left of what barack obama campaigned on. like an individual mandate. obama campaigned against that. an employer mandate. obama campaigned against that. taxation of benefits, health care benefits.

obama campaigned against that. so baucus is actually out to the left of obama on a few things. it's very hard to tell how those campaign contributions affect that. >> great point. lawrence o'donnell of msnbc and "the huffington post." thanks, as always. appreciate your coming on tonight. >> thanks, david. >> you're welcome. the senate judiciary committee has put off its vote on supreme court nominee sonia sotomayor for one week. meanwhile, support for sotomayor among gop moderates is growing. the committee vote is now scheduled for july the 28th, after republicans requested more time to study miss sotomayor's record. democratic chairman patrick leahy says he's confident sotomayor will win confirmation by a bipartisan vote of the full senate in time for the first supreme court's session. this as susan collins of maine becomes the fourth republican to break with conservative leaders and publicly support sotomayor. collins joins republicans richard lugar of indiana and fellow mainer, olympia snowe. coming up, a judge adds fuel to the fire that the cia is less than honest when it comes to

claiming state secrets. in fact, its actions could be so egregious that fraud charges, fraud charges could be coming against even former cia director george tenet. the con conspiracy theorists show themselves as a big problem for the gop. and the big joe the plumber debate. g b you could buy 300 bottles of water. or just one brita filter. ( drop plinks )

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when republicans claim that house speaker nancy pelosi must have known about waterboarding in 2002 because the cia would never have misled her, they staked their credibility on the cia's credibility. as we told you last night, newly released documents in a separate case now strongly suggest that the cia was willing to lie at almost exactly time about something far less politically charged. our fourth story begins in 1993 when drug enforcement agent richard horne fought with the cia. horne seen at center, filed a

lawsuit against the state department official to his right here, franklin huddle, and a covert cia operative named arthur brown, claiming they bugged his home. why did horn think his home had been bugged? on august 12th, he called a coworker from there. on august 13th, huddle saw a cable. quoting horn's call from the u.s. embassy in berma to the state department. on august 14th, a friend of horn's in the state department told horn about it. horn was soon transferred, thereby losing his beef with the cia. after returning home, though, he recalled his earlier puzzlement over why the u.s. officials who maintained his burmese apartment had suddenly decided they had to get in to replace an upstairs lamp and a downstairs coffee table that matched his furniture with an oval one that did not. he suspected a bug, and he sued. in 2000, cia director george tenet invoked the state secret program. in 2004, tenet got the case dismissed. and tenet's cia had lifts brown's covert status in 2002

and no one told the courts. last march, acting cia general council john rizzo, a player in waterboarding too, told the court that brown alerted one cia lawyer in 2005 that he was no longer covert, but that the lawyer kept it to himself, leading the government filings that in rizzo's words, quote, incorrectly indicated that brown was still covert. rizzo apologized profoundly. judge royce lambert, quote, not only was this false submission intentional, it was also material. 12 days later, brown sent the court a filing of its own, saying, in effect, rizzo's full of it. quote, i recall notifying in person two attorneys in the cia legal office about the change in my cover status in 2002. in other words, rizzo, the cia's legal chief admitted one of his attorneys withheld the truth from the court. and then a former cia agent

accused not only two more attorneys of knowing the truth, he also accused rizzo of lying about it. the judge, a national security veteran, has ruled the cia e committed fraud against the court and is considering sanctions against tenet, rizzo, and others. and in a secret hearing, this may refer to, quote, all these lies. with us tonight is james risen, author of "state of war: the secret history of the bush administration," also an investigative reporter for "the new york times". james, good evening. >> thanks for having me. >> first, can you give us a brief sketch of judge lambert? >> the interesting thing about him, he was also the chief judge of the fisa court, the secret court that handled warrants on

wire tapping, and he was the only judge on the court who was told by the bush administration that they were approved that they were going around the fisa court with warrantless wiretapping. so he has a lot of history now with the bush administration and with the issue of intelligence and what's properly notified and what's not. >> in that may 13th hearing this year, the judge said about the government's secrecy, quote, i am sick and tired of getting the runaround. and, quote, you handcuffed the court this nonsense. and the justice department was, quote, saying the u.s. is not accountable for their own lies. what is he really saying? >> the interesting thing to me, i looked into this case a several years ago as a reporter. i tried to report on the horn case before it became public. and it was very difficult to get any real information and it kind of boiled down to a he said/he said issue. so i was never able to actually publish a story about it. and then when i saw this latest from judge lambert, now i realized what was really going on behind the scenes at the cia. and it gives a lot more credibility to the horn case than i think anybody realized at

the time. >> this case began under president clinton and current cia director panetta also gets called out by the judge, so this is certainly bigger than politics. is this about the cia or perhaps even a culture of using secrecy as a shield? >> well, i think that's the issue, is that the cia has always, you know, they're just as credible as -- they're human. some people at the cia lie just like at every institution. and to say that they'll never lie or that they will always tell the truth is just silly. i mean, every organization has people who lie or people who, you know, are honest. so they're just like everybody else. the only difference is that they kind of hide behind a veil of secrecy. >> what happens now, both with this case and the republican claim that the cia does not lie? >> well, i think that was a silly argument to say that the

cia never lies. you know, this case does not mean that nancy pelosi is telling the truth about waterboarding. i don't think you can say that. it just means that the people at the cia are human and that they're not superman and that they're not -- you know, they're no different from the rest of us, except that they have secrecy to protect them. >> but then does it also say something about the republicans who claim that the cia would never lie, they would never mislead anybody? >> yeah. i just think -- i mean, that's just kind of a silly argument. you know, and i -- i think, frankly, nancy pelosi has made a mistake in trying to go down this road of saying that she was lied to, when it was probably true that there was some kind of briefing. i think it was a much more nuanced story than either side wants to say, but i think it was also silly of the republicans to make it such a political deal. >> james risen of "the new york times," thanks, as always, for your times. we appreciate it. >> sure. beware summer travelers. your rooftop luggage is not safe in the animal park. "oddball" on your side after the

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on this day in 1925, an anniversary of note if your name is sam brownback. high school biology teacher john t. scopes was found guilty of breaking a tennessee state law,

teaching evolution. scopes wu find $100 for telling his students about darwin. the conviction was later overturned. meanwhile, the gop has since acknowledged that evolution has an important scientific theory, since they have evolved since abraham lincoln to joe the plumber -- wait, wrong direction! and on that note, let's play "odd ball." we begin at the park in england where we join the scopes monkey trial riots, 84 years overdue. it's just another relaxing afternoon drive at the animal park until your station wagon is attacked by 140 wild baboons. they like your rooftop luggage, then it's monkey-see, monkey-do and before you know it, your underwear is being worn as a hat. the pash issued this reenactment of what could happen on your

family vacation, but warns that baboons have graduated to more serious crimes, such as hot wiring your car with a monkey wrench. to rio. where one man is taking on a city mannequin one at a time. sick of the potholes in his neighborhood, a local tire repairman who must not like getting work created pothole john. the doll is placed in front of the roadblock and low and -- lo and behold, city workers show up to patch up the holes and repave streets. for added effect, the mannequin brings along his fishing gear. so far, he's been able to rescue one boat, two tin cans, and a mid-sized suv. and finally, to japan, via man's best friend out for a stroll. we get a closer look and it's groucho bark. what pooch wouldn't want the gift of comically slanted eyebrows. the dog's name the panda and he was born with dark patches of fur right above his eye.

for the most part, panda is a happy little fella, except on weekends when his owners drag him to all those eugene levy lookalike contests. live by the conspiracy theory, die by the conspiracy theory. why cries that obama is not really an american citizen are a big problem for the gop than it is for the white house. and the great joe the plumber debate. is he a guiding prophet for the republicans, or in the words of megan mccain, a dumbass. could he be both? ♪ who says there's nothing like the taste of cool whip ? ♪ she does. ♪ and she does. ♪ and these guys too. ♪ obviously they do. ♪ oh, and her. ♪

hawaii's republican governor says he is, the director of that state's health department says he is. his birth certificate says he is. but our third story in the countdown, some people still say president obama is not an american citizen. take a look at this recent encounter during a town hall meeting on health care between republican mike castle and one angry conspiracy nut.

>> congressman castle, i want to know, i have a birth certificate here for the united states of america saying i am an american citizen with a seal on it, signed by a doctor with the hospital administrator's name, my parents, my date of birth, the time, the date. i want to know why these people are ignoring his birth certificate? he is not an american citizen. he is a citizen of kenya. i am here with my father who fought in world war ii, the greatest generation and i don't i want my country back!

>> the you're referring to this, he is a citizen of the united states. >> just yesterday, rush limbaugh on the radio, i have to prove to new york city and state tax authorities where i have been every day for the past three years. barack obama has yet to have to prove that he's a citizen. all he has to do is show a birth certificate. and army major stephan frederick cook who challenged the legality of his deployment, claiming that based on the birth issue the president wasn't really the president. but let's get real. msnbc's own website, first read asks, if mr. obama weren't a united states citizen, don't you think first the clinton camp or then the mccain camp would have said something during the

two-year presidential campaign? and if you were to believe mr. obama were not born in america, you would have to believe that not only the president governor and the health department were lying, but it began back in 1961 with the hawaii newspapers that printed his birth announcement. and also, mr. obama could become president obama 48 years. let's bring in from washington, d.c., chris kofinis. thanks for coming on. >> thanks, david. >> this citizenship stuff is not idle chatter in the gop. what does it say about the intellectual integrity or the lack thereof in the gop when so many republicans believe this canard. >> it suggests that there are a lot of republicans out there with some disturbing beliefs and too many have gotten in the car and driving fast to crazytown. what's interesting about these conspiracy theorys, there are conspiracy theorys out there that say we never landed on the moon. there are conspiracy theorys out there that say elvis is still

alive. there are conspiracy theorys, and this is my personal favorite, that the royal family are also reptillian. animals from the planet draco. that may be true, i don't know. but the notion here is that you have republicans basically falling into these kind of crazy conspiracy theorys. i just didn't know that so many conspiracy theorys apparently registered republican. but here's where it gets a little bit more disturbing for me. there seems to be a pattern of behavior when it comes to certain republicans with every administration. if you remember back with the clinton administration, there were people making the despicable conspiracy theory

that somehow vince foster was murdered instead of committing suicide. and this was a pattern where they tried to sully and discredit a democrat, in this case, obviously, president obama, his rightful win in november. and it just -- again, i think it's a very scary statement about where the republican or at least some factions of the republican party are. >> there are a group of republicans in congress sponsoring a bill that would require presidential candidates to prove their birth certificates. some of these lawmakers claim, we aren't talking about president obama, but that's what their wing nut constituents are focused on. so what are the lawmakers doing? >> what they're doing is wasting time. they're wasting the time of their constituents, they're wasting their rightful place in terms of dealing with the problems the country faces. this notion of somehow president obama is not an american citizen, anyone can go to factcheck.org and actually see the evidence that makes it very clear that he is an american citizen. but the problem with conspiracy theorys is you can't disprove them.

because these people will never believe any of the facts. and what's scary to see is that members of congress, any member of congress would directly or indirectly give this credence, you would think they would actually spend more time coming up with a health care proposal instead of wasting their time with these kind of useless pieces of legislation. but, again, that's not too surprising. >> the bigger picture seems to be that if president obama was not born where the evidence shows he was, the right wing can validate their feeling that mr. obama's not one of us. he's not really an american. to his credit, congressman castle, who we saw in the video, condemned that thought and those who go there, but don't other republicans for the good of the party have a responsibility to also say president obama was born in the united states and he is an american citizen? >> they do, and, unfortunately, i'm not sure how many are going to. some may choose not to because they don't want to give this kind of crazy theory any credence. some may not because they actually are afraid of what you saw in that castle town hall. a just riled up group of people who believe this. and these conspiracy theorys are disturbing on multiple fronts. one of my old professors said that conspiracy theorys are the easy answer for the weak minded. and there's a weak with mindedness when it comes to solving the major problems the country faces. and now you're seeing these

dangerous elements that are basically trying to discredit president obama's victory and suggest that he didn't win and didn't win rightfully. and the problem with that is, it takes us down a very dangerous path. and for me, it's not only discrediting it, i'm starting to get, you know, starting to get the sense that there's some real racial undertones to that. and that is not only sad, but it's disturbing. i would hope that republicans, when they hear this, do more than what representative castle said. which he obviously said that president obama a citizen, they need to be more forceful in condemning this. >> democratic strategist, chris kofinis, thanks for joining us tonight. >> thanks, david. >> you're welcome. from his birth certificate to his choice of blue jeans, president obama taking a hit on his fashion sense at last week's all-star game. comedian michael ian black join us. preying on hotel guests. prank calls in the middle of the night with some very dangerous consequences. and when rachel joins you at the top of the hour, backlash against the "c" street crowd. coming up, taking prank

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and later, the gop divide over joe the plumber. to michael steele, he's a savior, to megan mccain, he's a dumbass. comedian michael ian black weighs in.

prank calls have been around for decades. no one is immune from them. prime ministers, queens, even sarah palin have fallen victim to them. but in our number two story tonight, a disturbing new type of prank call has law enforcement very concerned. the goal isn't to leave the recipient a little red faced. it could leave the person on the other end of the phone seriously injured or even dead. nbc's kerry sanders explains. >> reporter: the trail of damage at hotels runs from florida to arkansas, to nebraska to california. victims say the prank calls seem so believable. >> we have a major gas leak occurring in the hotel. >> reporter: the pranksters are so brazen, some have posted their calls on the internet. >> we need you to break a window, ma'am. >> reporter: in this fake emergency call, the guest is suspicious there's a gas leak. but after someone else joins the call, it all seems so real. >> are you serious about this? >> we're serious, right. >> i'm the general manager and

we're verifying it is a serious gas leak and we do at this time need you to break that window so that you can get air -- >> i'm overlooking the pool. you know that? >> that's fine. we're not worried about anything but your safety at this time. >> reporter: as the guest tries to smash the window open with an iron, the callers who don't sound like teenagers stay on the line. >> get away, lady. you don't want to get hurt. >> she's on a mission. >> she just told me to do it. get away! >> reporter: police say the ringing phone scam usually comes when a guest is asleep. groggy when street sweeps aren't sharp. that's what apparently happened with the deputy suckered in orlando. >> there's a guy on the second floor of a hotel. hotels can be pretty high up. he breaks the window, been told to throw the mattresses out. imagine if he was on the 10th, 15th, 20th floor and that's the only way out. >> reporter: in another variation of the prank, guests were told to pull fire alarms or smash sprinklers, setting them

off. eleanor brown, also a hotel guest, didn't know what was going on. >> i just heard the man in the room next to me, where it all happened, yell. >> reporter: hotel managers samir patel called police after his hotel was targeted. >> someone called the hotel and convinced one of our guests to bust out the window, throw the mattresses downstairs. >> we weren't the first hotel targeted. supposedly not going to be the last hotel targeted. >> nbc's kerry sanders reporting. this is no prank. joe the plumber helped get the gop its groove back. the latest wisdom from rnc chair michael steele. he obviously hasn't talked to megan mccain lately. you're watching "countdown" on msnbc.

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> you may have heard that megan mccain called joe the plumber a "dumbass," yet michael steele actually praised mr. plumber for getting the republican groove back. so in our number one story in the countdown, let's put it nicely. the republican party is like a box of chocolates. you never know what you're going to get. meanwhile, the president of the united states addresses the flak he's catching over his mom jeans. but first joe the plumber wurzelbacher. it was not too long ago that mr. wurzelbacher did not want, quote, years anywhere around my children. so when megan mccain was asked about that, she said, joe the plumber, you can quote me, is a dumbass. he should stick to plumbing. enter rnc chairman, michael steele, who without any prompting from "hardball's" chris matthews paid mr. wurzelbacher a huge compliment just yesterday.

>> we couldn't even argue the basics of the economy in the last election, effectively, and it took a happenstance conversation with a plumber before we could really begin to get that groove. >> yes. chairman steele, joe the plumber really turned things around for your party. the leader of the free world has his own party. the jeans he wore at baseball's all-star game, roundly criticized as ill fitting, kind of like mom jeans. but when the "today" show's meredith vieira asked president obama about it, he said, i'm a little frumpy, and also, quote, those jeans are comfortable. in other words, get over it. and democratic senator claire mccaskill and what she twittered late last night about the health care debate. i support the pubic option on health care reform, but must make sure private market can kpet. -- compete. but nine minutes later she tweeted again, correcting her mistake, "public option." let's bring in michael ian black.

currently starring in the comedy on comedy central. good evening, michael. >> good evening, david. >> let's start with joe the plumber, a pretty wide range of opinion about him, even among republicans. care to offer yours? >> well, first of all, i'm a huge joe the plumber fan. everything that he says, i'm fascinated to hear it. i love his opinions. his insightfulness, and his craziness. but it's interesting that on one hand he said, i'm, quote, not just a dumb plumber. but he also said -- no, he said he was a dumb plumber, but he also said, i'm not some ignorant redneck who doesn't have anything to say about anything. so it sounds like he was maybe contradicting himself a little bit, but that's the genius of joe. he can talk out of both sides of that plumbing mouth. >> turning to the president and his jeans, he also said that, quote, here's my attitude. michelle, she looks fabulous. for people who want a president to look great in jeans, i'm

sorry. so the president is sticking with frumpy? >> i guess he is. but by the same token, nor do we need a president who shops at ne says. we don't need a president who necessarily looks great in tight jeans, but would it kill him to get a pair of levi's? would it kill him. i understand they're comfortable, but levi's make excellent products. >> and then there's senator mccaskill, who almost turned the health care debate into a soft-core porn dialogue. thankfully, she didn't let that spiral out of control. >> well, this is a typo. we've all made typos before, but it made me wonder the brazilian obama's health care reform plan? >> and on the other side of the aisle, chuck grassley loves to tweet, particularly when complaining about president obama, like this now-infamous tweet.

when you are a hammer, you think everything is nail. i'm no nail. are senators generally speaking, simply, out of their element on this whole tweeting thing? >> here's the problem. twitter is designed for people who can speak in short, succinct sentences. that's not necessarily a senator's forte. they're not necessarily good at confining things to a 140 characters or less. it, frankly, worries me if they can't get out two sentences without making a gaffe. i think that should be concerning for all americans. >> there's the growing dramatic narrative about whether republicans will be able to kill president obama's health care reform. would you like to venture a guess as to who is going to win that one? >> i don't know. on one side, you've got 45 million uninsured americans. on the other side, you've got a handful of very rich lobbyists. i'm going to go with the rich lobbyists. historically, that seems to be the group that wins. >> and speaking of winning, megan mccain, fair to say that her description of joe the plumber is one that probably, i don't know, most americans agree with? >> megan mccain is my favorite republican.

i absolutely adore her. every time she speaks, i'm like, why aren't people like her running for office? i think she's great. and i think she's correct. joe the plumber is -- and you can quote me on quoting megan mccain -- is a dumbass. >> is there any doubt? >> no. look at the man. >> look at him? what does that mean? >> i take that back. listen to the man. >> okay. comedian michael ian black, also starring in michael and michael have issues on comedy central. michael, always a pleasure to talk with you. thanks for coming on. >> thanks so much for having me. >> you're very welcome. you can usually catch me weekdays on msnbc at 3:00 p.m. eastern along with my colleague, tamron hall. thanks, everybody, for watching. and now to discuss the backlash against congressman and senator who is prayed inside the secretive organization called the family, here the rachel maddow. hey, rachel.