week's debate involving the wing nuts who insist president obama is not an american. i don't know about that story, but it is something. and the dozen members of congress who are pushing this damn story. not to mention the on-air provocateur who likes to push the buttons every night and every afternoon. the editor of the conservative american standard magazine says these so-called birthers should take a road trip back to reality. my friend, the legend r. emmett tyrrell joins us to chat about that and what he's been saying in his magazine. plus, if think the birthers are the only ones crying conspiracy wait until you hear what some people now think the government is hiding about ufos. sarah palin's last day in office comes this sunday. i have a suspicion we're going to hear a lot more from her once she's flying down here among the lower 48. that's in "the politics fix" tonight where it belongs. we begin with president obama, our president, heading back in front of the press people to continue the conversation the whole country is involved in about the arrest

of professor henry louis gates. dominic carter is a senior political reporter for "new york one" and ron brownstein is the political director for "atlantic media." gentlemen, let's listen to the president. he's the most important person in the country, especially on this issue. here he is today and what he said about his choice of words. >> i want to make clear that in my choice of words i think i unfortunately gave an impression that i was maligning the cambridge police department or sergeant crowley specifically, and i could have calibrated those words differently, and i told this to sergeant crowley. i continue to believe based on what i have heard that there was an overreaction in pulling professor gates out of his home to the station. i also continue to believe based on what i heard that professor

gates probably overreacted as well. >> you know, the amazing thing is how quickly you can turn a him, a stranger, into a guy you just talked to on the telephone. that's what the president did with sergeant crowley. what do you make of the way he handled this latest development that he was at the head of this afternoon, sir? >> chris, today was a well-scripted moment out of the white house, out of the president, as compared to the other day when the fact of the matter is you can agree or disagree, but the president was speaking from the heart. what's interesting about this situation, mr. obama, the president, is someone who has transcended race. we saw that, chris, during this campaign, and yet this is the most racial moment we have had from this president. he's african-american, and i just want to say this chris up front, a strong supporter of law enforcement i am, but you have to understand, i venture to say about 98% of african-americans in our country have had some type of situation or they know someone where they feel that individual has been treated

unfairly by the police, and so i think we're looking at someone, a rare occasion where the leader of the free world was speaking candidly from the heart. >> i was listening to the radio today, i think it was cnn, i'm not sure which nation -- which station i was listening to. it was a pretty intelligent comment. listen to this, dominic. suppose instead of professor gates it was professor henry kissinger, a white guy, who was in his house and he was accosted by a black police sergeant and that police sergeant came into his house and started having words wisd him and then arrested him. what would be the reaction to white america with all the talk about chip on your shoulder and all this kind of attitude. all this study going on here by the country. i thought that was a shockingly brilliant way to set it up as a different perspective. i might say, be honest about it, this cop's got an attitude, what the hell is he arresting the great henry kissinger for because he shows words of anger

because he's accosted in his house by a police officer? >> don't you think it's a separate issue that the president, regardless of the circumstance, should be commented on a specific case. there's no doubt that president obama has been interested and concerned and engaged in the broad subject that dominic talked about throughout his career. he sponsored legislation on racial profiling in illinois. i thought where he was off key and a little off his usual precision was on being so specific and commenting on this individual case. "a," as he said today, he didn't necessarily have all the facts. but "b," even if he did, is it really appropriate for the president of the united states to be offering that detailed of individual law enforcement decision, as opposed to saying there's a prodder issue here we need to discuss as a society, which is where we came back to today and i think is more in tune with the way, the care with which he's handled racial issues -- >> don't you ever want to dust somebody up and say is there a person inside there? does everybody have to talk like a slot? here is the president. we're all slots. his slot is president. but at some point it would be nice to know,

on a touchy moment when he was a little tired, maybe a little edgy, you find out who he is. it's not a bad thing to know. once in a while. even if he didn't -- i'd rather he made a mistake occasionally so we can find out who he is. here he is today talking about how he wants to weigh in on this thing. >> i have to tell you that that part of it i disagree with. the fact that this has become such a big issue i think is indicative of the fact that, you know, race is still a troubling aspect of our society. whether i were black or white, i think that me commenting on this and hopefully contributing to constructive, as opposed to negative, understandings about the issue is part of my portfolio. >> dominic, i can't think of a parallel, we always like to find parallels about somebody else being president and having to talk for their group, the group

they came from within our country, their community, in a way he has to do this. i think it is a challenge for him to be both a black man in america and president, and he has to find out a way to do it. he's taking time to figure that out. when he's tired at night, when he's not tired. when he's thinking with his staff, when he's thinking on his feet. it has to come together in some general notion of who he is. it's going to take time. what do you think? >> it is going to take time, chris, and that's something this president, unlike any other president before him, is going to have to deal with. he is the president, the leader of the free world, but the fact of the matter is he's the first african-american president, and this guy is walking the fine line with almost every word that comes out of his mouth. but, again, you know, the point that ron made, and i do have to agree, he does have a history of dealing with these issues in terms of his past as a state senator. now, the police unions, you know, they're upset, and one can understand their point of view, but, chris, and i know you've been talking about this, but

just think about this for a second as it relates to race relations in our great country. a professor from harvard university, a man who walks with a cane, in his mid-20s, in his own home, who identifies himself. so then what can happen to the 16-year-old kid with his hat to the side and jeans perhaps hanging off his backside that hasn't done anything wrong? >> well, you're an evocative speaker, sir. what do you think? >> i want to disagree with you. i think he has figured out from the beginning how to talk to america as the first black president. as a candidate. and the strategy has been from his emergence in 2004, that his goal is to be the president of all of america. without in any way denying his heritage or without in any way failing to bring that experience to the national stage. but always trying to integrate that in the broadest sense into an identity that encompasses all americans. i thought it was a little unusual about this comment, it seemed to kind of slip off of

that. where he was today i think took him back to where he has been most successful. >> he had to call the cop because you have to feel that your president -- this is ideal, that no matter who you are as an american, if you could sit down with the president of the united states, he would be sympathetic to your situation. that's an ideal. >> right, and i think -- and the analogy, the kind of reverse analogy of henry kissinger, i would find the reverse analogy to be if there was a case of police discrimination and he absolved, as the president, and say i think he acted appropriately. when rudy giuliani did things like that in new york, people were outraged. it just really isn't the role of the leader, i think, of the free world to be the arbitrator on the specific case, as opposed to the perfectly ledge lat issue of raising the broader problem. >> here he is i think getting back to true north. here is president obama late this afternoon about the invitation -- it was proffered by crowley, the cop, who had -- what do you call it -- the chutzpah to say why don't you

have us over for a beer. here he is responding to that proposition. >> at the end of the conversation there was a discussion about -- in my conversation with sergeant crowley, there was suggestion about he and i and professor gates having a beer here in the white house. we don't know if that's scheduled yet, but we may put that together. >> okay. here is the question to you, dominic, my friend, it's late tonight. it's 11:00 tonight. we're in a saloon somewhere in new york. a couple of african-american guys sitting around, old friends, they've had a couple beers each, and they're talking about this thing. what are they saying? speak for everybody. what are they saying about the president, the way he handled this, the way he had to handle it, whether he had to back down, whether society forced him to ameliorate, to modify, modulate, whatever. what do you think regular people

were saying about him tonight, black fellows? >> that's a great question, chris. i was getting a haircut today and when i was listening to the gentlemen say, they were latino gentlemen, they said police officers have to understand that we want to be treated like everybody else. it would go a long way to show us the same respect that you show everyone else. that's the first thing they're saying. african-americans in barbershops and in beauty salons across america are saying, wow, this guy is -- meaning the president -- is standing strong. they understand that he had to, if you will, walk away from the issue of race during the campaign, but he's not avoiding it as the president of the united states -- >> the latest iteration of this when he went to the press room, are they saying he had to kowtow this or made a reasonable step back? what do you think they're saying? regular guys? >> i think he say the president had to do this today, it's good damage control, he couldn't go into the weekend with this hanging out there. he is the leader of the free world. african-americans understand that, and that he can't step on his own message of health care. >> i love america. >> obama's great strength from the outset and his ability to

deliver for minority communities is based on his capacity to understand and show empathy for all viewpoints and not be an advocate for one. that has been his strength from the outset. anything that takes him away from that is a mistake. >> this is the greatest thing about having this job, to be in on this conversation. the greatest thing. because this is america talking. we're all going to be talking all night about this. thank you, dominic carter. sir, have a good weekend in new york and ron, have a good weekend down here. i'm going to the movies tonight. coming up, we don't know exactly what happened between sergeant crowley. we're talking around the conversation none of us were in, and professor gates. how we see this case depends greatly on our race, our experience, our conjecture, and what we've figured out from our experience. can this be a teachable moment, as the president said? let's get back and talk about it. we're going to go up to boston and talk to some people up there. coming up, we're going local in boston. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. >> my hope is as a consequence

of this event, this ends up being what's called a teachable moment where all of us, instead of pumping up the volume, spend a little more time listening to each other. g b you have questions. who can give you the financial advice you need? where will you find the stability and resources to keep you ahead of this rapidly evolving world? these are tough questions. that's why we brought together two of the most powerful names in the industry. introducing morgan stanley smith barney.

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the fact that it has garnered so much attention i think is a testimony to the fact that these are issues that are still very sensitive here in america, and, you know, so to the extent that my choice of words didn't illuminate but rather contributed to more media frenzy, i think that was

unfortunate. welcome back to "hardball." the reverend eugene rivers is with the azusa christian community church in boston, and charles blow is a columnist with "the new york times." gentlemen, thank you for joining us. i'm sure you have thoughts. i won't get in your way. take it away, reverend rivers, about this whole thing from a boston perspective. >> i think the president today engaged in perfect political choreography. he made a mistake. he put the word stupid in the same sentence with police. he understood that this was a major problem, he was smart enough to regroup and reposition himself because this was cascading into a major crisis in terms of racial division. there was a misunderstanding between professor gates and sergeant crowley. this misunderstanding morphed into a major racial kind of a fight nationally. it was getting away from us, and the president to his credit brilliantly regrouped.

he understood he had stepped in a cow pie. he got out of the cow pie and said, look, we have to back away from this, we're going to stand down. he brilliantly called the sergeant, extended the olive branch so there was peace in the valley. the professor and sergeant crowley will get together, they'll have a beer, and that will be the end of the story. brilliant. >> your take on this as a journalist? what's your view of what we've watched here in america? >> that won't be anywhere near the end of this story. i think it's a -- i think you're right, reverend, it's a brilliant move on the part of the president to call and to extend -- and to say basically, i'm sorry, although he didn't use those words. but this issue doesn't go away. the issue of racial profiling in america in general and very specific to this case, the sergeant has said that he will not apologize and he has done nothing wrong, and the professor says that his account, which is completely -- very different

from the sergeant's, is the truth. somebody is lying, and whoever is lying, it has profound consequences either for the people who are under the jurisdiction of the cambridge police and everyone that sergeant crowley has come in contact with heretofore, or for all the scholarships that the professor has taken part in over a long and distinguished career. set aside what president obama did or did not do. there's still a big story here and we have to find out the truth. >> let me ask you, reverend, suppose it was henry kissinger, not henry gates, who was in his house and the police officer was african-american and it got out of hand and kissinger lost his temper and started screaming at the black cop in a way that made the cop feel inferior and indignant and he had to stand up to himself, to the point of using his office to arrest him. what would that have told us? it seems to me it's almost impossible to imagine that society wouldn't have come down

on that sergeant if he was black in that situation. >> absolutely. >> i mean the american majority would say that cop has got an attitude. he caused the incident. henry kissinger of course was in the right because it was in his house. >> obviously, this was a terrible arrest. it was a clear-cut case of bad policing. had it been kissinger and the black cop forcing the issue, the black cop would have had an attitude problem and kissinger would have been within his rights to complain. look, henry louis gates was arrested in his house for breathing while black, bottom line, understood. poor policing. now, this incident morphed into a racial problem that we've got to pull back from. i want to pick up on a point that charles blow made. look, in the real world outside of 02318, harvard square.

in the real world the way this would be handled as the rhetoric got away some cooler heads would have prevailed, called both of the parties in, there would be an apology, the concession would be there was a misunderstanding. we would not racialize to the extent where you get unnecessary polarization. there's a real issue of black people being -- black men in particular being -- >> i think we're going to court on this. i think we're going a totally different direction. no matter what the president said today, this isn't patty-cake time. this isn't bean bags. i have a sense lawyers are circling up there going to the professor. your thoughts, charles, in them saying you have a case here. that picture of him in handcuffs is a hell of a case to go to a jury. and that that cop has got a lot of explaining to do. your thoughts? i don't think this is over. i agree with you, i don't think this is over. >> i don't know if it's a court case. i talked to the professor for a long time yesterday. after the president's speech today, i called him back and spoke to him about 30 minutes. he's not a rabble rouser.

he's very much interested in getting that point across. he is a scholar. this is an awkward position. he feels like this is an awkward position for him, but at the same time, you know, he feels like he's in an awkward position in the sense that his words are that the police report is an act of fiction, that pretty much everything -- or most of what's in it is just a lie. and that's -- >> well, what's the main thrust of it? is he saying he wasn't tumultuous? that's an odd word for a police report. the sergeant said he was behaving tumultuously. was he exploding in a way where the police officer felt there was nothing else to do but end the situation? i'm not defending the cop, i'm wondering what he said happened that was different from that police report. how is it different? >> what he said to me not only was he not tumultuous -- when the officer entered his house,

the first words the professor gates said he said to him was, could you please step out of your house? it wasn't that i'm in your house for a 911 call, none of that. after he said no, he said, i'm here investigating a 911 call. was that an initial attempt just to arrest? because after you get outside your house you can do that, because he didn't have a search warrant? i have no idea but that's kind of the underlying point. >> where does this go? >> what's that? >> where does that go politically? my point is that, there was an injustice done, it was poor policing. what's the political end game of the discussion? >> i think that barack obama is interested in making it a teachable moment. i think professor gates is interested in making this a teachable moment. i think if we as a country can use this incident as a teachable moment, it would be great. >> agreed. >> but to get to that point somebody has to admit they were wrong. right now, both sides are saying they will not do that. i would love to be in that room for a beer to find out --

>> what happens when they're both lawyered up and they both have the their stories the way they know will make it look good, then we'll never get to the truth. will we? >> chris, what happens if they lawyer up is that you get more racial polarization. the country gets more racially polarized. >> on this issue though, i think -- there's a body of evidence that it's a real phenomenon, right? so whether or not we're lawyered up or not, that is not going to change the past, which is that we have been able to document that this is a real phenomenon. that's just -- >> look, everybody i know who is african-american, everybody, confirms that through personal experience. gentlemen, we could take -- we could have a whole town meeting on this. i'd love to, actually. i'd like to have it at the scene of the house, in fact. >> you should do it. >> give me some money. thank you very much. up next, it's been a week of conspiracy theories but none as zany as this. white house press secretary

robert gibbs, he gets asked about the obama administration's been covering up the existence of ufos. we'll listen to a new american story, but it's always in the ether. [ female announcer ] swiffer 360 dusters cleans deep... you'll love it so much, you'll send your old duster packing. ♪ love stinks! ♪ yeah! yeah! ♪ love stinks ♪ [ female announcer ] swiffer 360 dusters cleans deep into hard to reach places and removes allergens, feather dusters can leave behind. the thick all around fibers trap and lock on contact. swiffer gives cleaning a deep new meaning. exact change, buddy. ♪ love stinks!

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for the "sideshow." first up, one for the conspiracy theorists. white house press secretary robert gibbs is used to out of left field questions, but this one from a c-span viewer today may just take the cake. >> good morning. my question might seem a little silly, but it's very serious and i was wondering if you could take it very seriously. there's a massive movement right now of hundreds of colonels and ex-cia officials and air force pilots who are demanding that

obama administration live up to its promise of transparency and let the american people know the truth about the existence of ufos. >> and we'll get a response. thank you for the call from seattle. >> ryan, i take your question seriously not simply because of the topic but also because if you're calling from seattle and it's a little after 7:00 here, it's a little after 4:00 in the morning there. look, i have not been briefed on whether or not there are the existence of ufos. i haven't talked to the president about this topic. >> i think it was useful mr. gibbs pointed out the caller was up at 4:00 in the morning worrying about ufos. personally i'd be open to any hard evidence that the earth has been visited from abroad. some people simply believe in cover-ups and conspiracy generally. especially in the wee hours of the morning. maybe the best solution here is simply a good night's sleep. next up, looking for love this weekend? well, if you're one of congressman ron paul's diehard libertarian followers, and there

are a lot of them out there, look no further than this new online dating site, it's called ron paul singles, and it claims to put the love in revolution. congressman paul says while he doesn't know who created this site, quote, i suppose it's all about freedom bringing people together, spiritually, politically, and now romantically. what a romeo. what a cupid. i can't second that one too much. now for tonight's "big number." a blast from the past. recognize this scene of then vice president richard nixon standing alongside soviet premier nikita khrushchev in moscow at an american model house exhibition. the unscripted starring -- or sparring between these two leaders over the merits of communism versus capitalism came to be known as the great kitchen debate. how long has it been since this historic day? 50 years exactly, that cold war showdown. a half century ago.

the first real political use of the tv medium happened on july 24th, 1959. it's the 50-year anniversary of the great kitchen debate. tonight's "big number." up next, how big a political problem do republicans have with this so-called birthers movement, those wackos who insist president obama is not an american. we'll talk to one prominent conservative who thinks enough is enough. and this weekend on "the chris matthews show," we'll be talking to our panel of top reporters about why former president bush refused to pardon scooter libby and what bush people think libby and cheney are hiding. welcome to the now network. currently, thousands of people

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deaf, hard of hearing and peoplecall or click today.ities 'sprogressive. here's what's happening. the california assembly has

approved a plan aimed at closing the state's $26 billion budget shortfall. the package now goes to governor arnold schwarzenegger for his signature. iranian officials say 17 people were killed when a passenger jet went off the runway and burst into flames while trying to land near tehran. more than 100 other passengers escaped unharmed. the ousted president of honduras was back inside his country momentarily today. president manuel zelaya was forced to cross back into nicaragua when honduran troops arrived to place him under arrest. wall street pulled out a gain in the final hour of trading but results from microsoft and amazon dragged the nasdaq lower. the dow jones industrials finished almost 24 points higher. the s&p 500 added 3. the nasdaq lost 7. those are your headlines. now back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." we've been investigating why right wing talk show hosts and almost 12 -- a dozen members of congress are pushing the conspiracy theory that president obama was not born in the usa. they're called birthers. they have a name, and they want to force the president, i guess, to produce an authentic, as they say, birth certificate, but he did, actually, during the campaign do that. here are the pictures to prove it. plus, hawaiian officials have verified its authenticity, but the birthers don't let the facts get in the way. listen to conservative radio talk show host g. jordan liddy here last night on "hardball." so if he wasn't born here and he's never gone through a naturalization process. right? that you know of? >> not that i know of. >> therefore, he's here illegally. you're saying he's an undocumented alien. >> illegal alien. >> he's an illegal alien. so the president -- so he should be picked up. no, i'm serious. let's go all the way. by the way, who do you think is

in on this? do you think his wife is in on this, his mother is in on this? how many people were in on this conspiracy to make it look like he was born here? his mother must be involved, his grandparents must be involved. how many people are part of this cover-up? >> his mother is dead. >> no, how many people were part of this presentation to us that he was born here? >> i don't know. >> some conservatives have had enough of this. by the way, here's barack obama's birth announcement from 1961 in the "honolulu advertiser." it's a big newspaper back there. tom costello, who works with me, he stopped me in the hallway and said why would gordon liddy say what he said last night, that the mother put an advertisement in the local newspaper that her son was born here so he could be an american. everybody wants to be an american. my brain wasn't working yesterday. the kid would have been an american anyway. we have joining us right now -- because you have a son. bob tyrrell is the founder and editor-in-chief and a legendary name in this business of

journalism in one of the oldest most conservative magazines, "the american spectator." this seedling -- it's not even a conspiracy theory. people like lou dobbs are saying i think he's an american, i just want to know more, i want to see more documentation. rushbo is out there having fun with it. but what bugs me is elected officials. bill posey, richard shelby, all kinds of people, look at what some republicans have said about president obama's birth. republican congressman bill posey of florida said, i haven't looked at the evidence. it's not up to me to look at the evidence. i can't swear on a stack of bibles whether he is or isn't. senator richard shelby said, well, his father was kenyan, and they said he was born in hawaii. i haven't seen any birth certificate. you have to be born in america to be president. thaumg thank you, senator. i've never seen him produce documents that would say one way or the other. and a spokesman for congresswoman marcia blackburn of tennessee said her constituency were losing faith in the american system because of the absence of a requirement the president show some

documentation. this goes on and on. why are these guys doing this? >> i guess because they're not reading "the american spectator." because last -- during the election, we looked into this story and we found no evidence supporting it. in fact, evidence too the contrary. that he was, indeed, born in the united states. i think -- >> you got "the advertiser" piece, didn't you? >> i don't know if we were the original, we did dig it up. >> that is a pretty good indication somebody was born when it says so in a local newspaper back in '61. we're looking at it right now. you'd have to believe, as costello my colleague points out, that the mother said i want my son to be president in 48 years so i'm going to claim he was born here, not just that he's my kid. >> well, to me, it demonstrates one of my deepest-held insights into politics, that more often than being about ideas or ideals, politics is about a person's psychological needs, and in this case they have a psychological need to have enemies. a lot of people in politics do. that's i think what's behind these congressmen and senators also to believe in conspiracies.

it makes it a lot easier to believe in conspiracies than to be an empeer cyst and actually have to look at the facts. >> what do you think of conspiracies and people who believe in them? >> i share the same views you do. i think it's a lazy way of looking at things. i think it's a demonstration of another great motivation in history that's unsung, and that's the motivation of boredom. a lot of people -- >> hah! >> a lot of people are easily bored. >> how about this guy that called in the other day to c-span, which is a great network, calling in to robert gibbs, the president's press secretary at 4:00 in the morning talking about ufos? i thought gibbs was brilliant. because he said, i notice it's 7:00 back here, it must be 4:00 there. you got up at 4:00 in the morning to ask a ufo question. >> it demonstrates to me i wouldn't do a good job in that man's job, gibbs' job. he's got it, i don't. >> i think about conspiracies. this idea of the president. the thing about it, it comes down to this. you know when you're young especially, you walk into a

party and you have this notion everybody there knows each other but they don't know you. you usually get over this and recognize that everybody is as lonely as you are and as individual as you are. they don't all know each other. some people never get over that idea. they think everybody is out to get them. so they believe there's meetings going on at all times among everybody they don't know against them. that there's meetings involving when kennedy was killed, the secret service was involved, the fbi, the cia, the irish mafia. everybody was involved in killing kennedy. how do people think -- they think there's something called the government, by the way. you and i know there's no such thing as the government. it's just a bunch of scared bureaucrats waiting for 5:00, in some cases. >> that's right. i think -- i'll pick up on what you just said. let me pick up on the fact that you're an author and i'm an author. we've written about history. we've read history. we've even rubbed up against a few historic figures and we know that history is filled with great stories, and in all those great stories very few of them are conspiracies that were ever

proven. the facts disprove all of these conspiracies. can you think of one conspiracy that was ever proven to be valid? how about the conspiracy roosevelt is behind pearl harbor? was there ever any proof to that? no. yet it's hung on year after year after year. but you and i know, those who read history and care about history and it's wonderful that history books are very popular -- >> my dad believed that one. i'm ashamed -- i'm not ashamed. my dad believed that. he used to believe it was the united states. wasn't roosevelt, he stood up during the great depression and got us into the war. he said i still think he -- >> he and i come from the same kind of background -- >> but the problem with that theory is it assumes that franklin roosevelt would risk being hanged, which he would be, he would have been no matter how great he was, if it ever got out that he actually had one phone call or one conversation where he said, why don't we put the american pacific fleet in one simple place and why don't we tell the japanese navy to come in there and the air force but

don't tell anybody about it. >> american presidents of either party don't treat their armies that way. they don't treat their citizens that way. most of our presidents have been pretty moral -- >> let me ask you -- i'll give you a stage. the conservative movement in america right now. you lost the last election with a middle of the road conservative like mccain. where do you see it coming back, as a magazine man, over the next four years, eight years? how do you come back to power? we know this country rotates, it alternates in power, left and right. how do you guys get the next turn? >> remember i wrote a book called "the liberal crack-up." then i wrote "the conservative crack-up." now i'm writing another book on it. i think the cracked-up state -- look at the whole field. you have the conservatives here, diminished by corruption and overspending and things like that. but over here, you have the liberals. now, i think sean willen, the great liberal historian, and i agree on this. the liberals are still in a fragmented, cracked-up state. real see over the next couple of

years if they can keep their fragmented -- >> who is your leader four years from now? is it too early to know? who is the leader of the right? who is the barry goldwater, ronald reagan? >> there are some very good leaders in the house of representatives right now, paul ryan, pence, people like that -- >> everybody says ryan. >> this guy m >> this guy mcconner is -- >> i hear ryan a lot. maybe because he's irish, and we like him. r. emmett tyrrell, a famous name. we call him bobby. thanks for coming on. up next, president obama and the arrest of henry louis gates. it isn't henry kissinger who got arrested. we'll see. will his comments today quiet his critics. the president who first blamed the stupidity of the police. is he off that one right now? come on in. you're invited to the chevy open house. where getting a new vehicle is easy. because the price on the tag is the price you pay on remaining '08 and '09 models.

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we're back. time for "the politics fix" with michelle bernard, the president of the independent women's voice and an msnbc political analyst and a syndicated radio host and my friend michael smerconish is an msnbc contributor. i want to start with michael. your views about this. i have been trying to find a parallel for us white people, if you will, although we don't usually talk like that. because this is so racially divided in a sense. if this professor in this story we've been talking about at harvard had been, say, an unknown but

but prominent, somebody like larry summers, the economist or someone like that who is equally prominent, and the officer had been a -- the sergeant had been a black police officer and everything else was exactly the same, would our reaction be, how is this black cop giving a hard time to this prominent guy here? he obviously was coming in there with an attitude? i'm just trying to figure out how much baggage we all carry and try to equalize it a little bit. your thoughts, michael? >> my hunch is we probably would. i base that, chris, on the fact that i have just spent two straight days, that's two radio programs a day, six hours of live talking each day. this is the only subject people have wanted to talk about. and when i hear the inflexion of someone's voice and if i can determine their race, i can pretty much tell you what they were going to say about this case. and so i think that if you reverse the roles, the result would have largely been the same. >> meaning?

the whites would have taken the pro-civilian position, and the blacks would have taken the pro-cop position? is that what you're saying? >> meaning we have come -- meaning we have come a great distance in this country with the election of the first african-american president, and we still have a lot of territory to cover. that these lurking suspicions are still out there. and all it takes is the right set of circumstances to bring them to the surface. unfortunately. >> yeah, i -- i look at this and i think, cops, you know -- you know, the trouble -- my father is a court reporter. every day he wrote in court. a lot of people in criminal court were black. you get a certain attitude and it encrusts you. it gets around your head. you begin to start making what are prejudicial comments that are based on experience but when you apply them to the next stranger you meet they're prejudicial. ? yeah, absolutely. >> based on statistics or anything else, it's still prejudicial to make an assumption about a human being based on the other people's behavior. go ahead. >> i watched sergeant crowley do an interview this morning on the "today" show and i couldn't help but have empathy for him.

but i think one of the most important things we've heard throughout the whole day today was the term you just used, which is baggage. i think what is missing in the larger conversation about this whole thing is that racism hurts. it literally, physically, and emotionally hurts. i think that i would be reticent to say you'll ever meet an african-american, particularly of a certain age group, who hasn't been looked at funny or stopped in a grocery store -- >> i'm curious. is it true that a 25-year-old african-american hasn't had to face the weird stares you get going into a restaurant that was mostly white, the weird stares you get when you go into a circumstance that's mostly white, the weird attitudes you face when you try to get a cab, the weird attitudes you have on the subway. is anybody free of that at a any age? you say younger people haven't experienced that bad vibe? >> no, it depends on where you live and the type of younger people that we're talking about. if you're a younger person who's wearing a skullcap and you've got your pants hanging down your

behind like i heard somebody say earlier today, you absolutely have experienced that and probably experienced it from whites and african-americans -- >> that's a special statement in itself. >> exactly. >> like long hair for us in the '60s. if i had long hair, people would assume certain politics. >> it's a stereotype. my brother was stopped in our own neighborhood, predominantly white, you know the area, i've told you where my parents lived. stopped in the neighborhood, he was driving my mother and father's car and the police wanted to know what a young black man was driving that car in that neighborhood and they let him go when i pulled up. >> did they do a trunk search too? >> no, i happened to pull up at the same time. because i'm assuming, and again this is a stereotype, but because i'm a black woman and i got out and could verify this was my brother and we lived in the home, they said, "i'm sorry, you're a nice, polite young man," and they let us go. what i'm saying -- >> do you ever feel it? >> absolutely, working in law firms and people walk up to me and automatically assume, tall, black woman, must be the legal secretary, not the partner in the law firm. could you get me a cup of coffee? >> what about do people give you weird looks?

>> no. >> you don't get negatives? >> well, yes, sometimes. >> you're obviously -- i wondered whether people in this society still feel -- i think it's there. >> the bottom line, chris, is it hurts emotionally and physically. and i think that when people are out there to go after henry louis gates, just try to have a little impathy for a man of his age and what he has gone through to make the career that he has and be arrested in his home. >> the guy screams his lungs at him, what's he supposed to do? that's a question i don't know the answer to. what do you do when you've been humiliated yourself? we've got to talk about sarah palin. she's going to be on the loose as of sunday. also, hillary clinton's going to do a rare, big, full-hour discussion with our colleague david gregory this sunday, all hour with her on sunday "meet the press." ...or if you're already sick... ...or if you lose your job.

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and michael smerconish. sarah palin leaves the governorship of her own decision. a new poll shows she's down to 40% favorable. she had been up to 58%. that's not that high, back in september, after her nomination. you first, michelle, will she fly or fall politically the next year? >> she'll make a lot of money next year. she's got nowhere to go but up. if she started high and remained

at the numbers right after the convention we'd see her implode the way hillary clinton did. i think she's going to rise. >> won't she be a big star out there on the circuit? >> she'll be a huge star out there on the circuit but she'll only attract support from the gop conservative base. the worst aspect of those numbers are the internals that show that a majority of americans believe that she's lacking in substance. and i don't know how outside of office she can improve on that number. >> if you are pat toomey running for the senate next year, would you like her to come in and do a lunch for you? >> i'd like -- yeah i'd like her to come in in central pennsylvania or the northern "t," out of the media market, attract the conservative money and leave. >> michelle, would you want her to campaign for someone you liked? >> i agree with smerconish. >> aaa ball, out of the big leagues. thank you, michelle bernard,

michael, as always. join us again monday nights at 5:00 and 7:00 eastern for more "hardball." which of these stories will you be talking about tomorrow? the president versus the cambridge police? the. >> cambridge police acted stupidly. >> today the police stand by their man and escalate the very public dispute with the white house. >> i think the president should make an apology for all law enforcement personnel throughout the entire country took offense to this. >> the president tries to tone things down with a surprise walk-on at the white house briefing. >> i could have calibrated those words differently. >> will those words finally put this controversy to rest? not for rush limbaugh, whose rantings are stoking racial resentment. >> you have a black president trying to destroy a white policeman. we're all going to have a mug shot. >> robert gibbs tonight. the health care slugfest.

will more time for talks lead to a b bitter bell. and by the awesome power of twitter, we learn republican senator chuck grassley is egging on the democratic dogfight. we have white house reaction to that as well. the first grandmother breaks her silence. >> grandma is beginning to feel left out. >> rare public comments from marian robinson on sasha and malia growing up too fast and what it is like to move from a bungalow on the south side of chicago to the executive mansion known as the white house. and sarah's swan song. this sunday, governor palin bids adieu to the highest office in alaska and hello to her national ambitions. >> life is about choices. >> but with her latest poll numbers at an all time low, can she save her party or will she put the twit back in twitter. all that and more now on "countdown". >> it is pretty insane.