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♪ good morning. i'm carlos watson. this hour on msnbc is president obama losing the message war on health care? today the president hits the road trying to sell his message in back-to-back town halls and a number of skeptics growing can he convince the american public he is on the right track with health care. on capitol hill negotiations continue with house and senate lawmakers still stuck in a crossroads over cost and that much debated government-run option. moving out. defense secretary robert gates says some u.s. troops as much as an entire combat brigade could be coming home from iraq ahead of schedule. homeland security secretary janet napolitano.

former secretary of defense william cohen and paul ryan and democratic senators barbara boxer and evan bayh. plus sharon waxman founder of the rap.com and dan abrams will join us coming up. first we fast forward to the top news headlines. a big announcement from the cdc on the swine flu vaccine. they should put pregnant women in line to get vx nated against the virus. a new study found pregnant women infected with swine flu have a much higher risk of severe illness and death. in iran, initial protesters will be put on trial starting today. it's all a part of iran's crackdown on massive opposition following last month's disputed election results. in the meantime anger is growing there over allegations of abuse against the detainees in the crackdown. authorities investigating the death of michael jackson descended upon the las vegas hotel of his personal doctor. murray is casually walking

around his vegas country club after the raid. now, dr. murray is the focus of a manslaughter investigation. he maintains, though, he did nothing wrong. fox news commentator called president obama racist. he made the statement tuesday on fox and friends' morning show. >> this president, i think has exposed himself as a guy over and over again who has a deep-seeded hatred for white people. i'm not saying that he doesn't like white people. i'm saying he has a problem. he has -- this guy is, i believe, a racist. >> unusual perspective. fox news senior vice president said beck was expressing his own views and not those of the fox news channel. the white house had no comment. every day we invite a guest to join me. today i'm pleased to have katrina. good to see you. >> thank you. another day in america. delusional and dangerous. >> what do you make of that? >> i think there is a lot of

hatred and a lot of anger and pain and despair and against the backdrop of the economic pain in this country, people like glenn beck's rantings, also deranged. you know, we've seen this other times in american history. the paranoia. but i think it's very scary. >> why do you think or maybe said differently. what will it take for some conservative leaders to forcefully and clearly step forward and say this is over the line, it's inappropriate, not unlike in the '50s what william f. buckley did with the -- >> well, it took him a long time to denounce someone like joe mccarthy who also poisoned our politics. what would it take, carlos? look what we heard. you have to ask what would it take? we've heard it already. you think a republican party has some semblance of desire to reassert itself as a force in american politics, certainly in a country with a a changing demographic. its future rests on speaking and in more tolerant ways and at the

moment looking like political suicide if they don't speak out more broadly. >> let's bring in a senator after weeks of health care negotiations in the senate, are they about to yield some results? finance committee chairman max baucus says his bipartisan panel is closing in on agreement and that may win over some republicans but causing a major rift in the democratic caucus. barbara boxer joins us now. good to see you. >> good to see you. >> do you feel like a positive end is in sight? we hear lots of the back and forth but do you think a substantive bill is on it is way to being reached on the senate side? >> i do believe so. i can't tell you the hour it will happen or the day, but, soon, it will happen. i think what a lot of people are missing is that the finance committee bill which senator baucus is trying to make bipartisan is just one step in a very large process. we have the health committee bill.

as you know, senator kennedy is the chairman of that and in his absence, senator dodd sent down a good bill and we have a bill that hopefully, will be bipartisan and come down and harry reid, our leader, will take the best of those and put them together, will pass something and we go to conference with whatever the house bill looks like. so this is just the beginning of a very difficult process. >> senator boxer, i want to bring in katrina, who is joining me this morning. >> thank you for the rundown on the process in d.c. but let's talk about the bottom line. a majority of democrats, 72% plus, support the public plan. do you believe that will be in the final piece of legislation and, if not, what do you tell democrats who see a majority house and senate and democratic president? what are they voting for? >> that is two separate questions. i do think we'll have a public interest option at the end of the day. because we have to contain the

cost. the insurance companies are just been raising those premiums. do you know that in the last nine years, the small business costs have gone up a hundred percent? and i've just seen the new america foundation study that says in california, if on nothing is done, my people will be paying 41% of their income to health insurance. it's just not sustainable. so what is the best way to keep down the cost? i think it's competition and i think a public interest plan will do just that. >> senator boxer, i want to ask you about a very different topic, immigration. >> sure. >> california, obviously, has benefited tremendously from immigration over the years but it's also been one of the flash points for the immigration debate. do you think we'll get substantive immigration reform this year, or is the policy docket too full? >> we need to begin moving toward comprehensive immigration reform. we need to secure our borders

and we need pass citizenship for the people who are here and who have played by the rules. i'd like to see that happen. certainly my people in california want to. i know senator reid wants to and senator schumer is in a good position to begin this process. so i think, you know, it's unfortunate we have all of these big issues at the same time but we have to deal with all of them, because for eight long years, they were all neglected. that's the truth of the matter. >> senator boxer, your great state of california is a failed state because of the budget crisis right now. what do you seek from the federal government by way of a second stimulus directed to the states or revenue sharing plans that would benefit states in crisis? >> well, first of all, i do not have a failed state. we have a failed budget process. >> right. >> it's impossible. you need a two-thirds vote for the budget, so what happened in this particular standoff is the

governor just sort of gave up and he went with the hard right and everything was done with cuffs and that was bad. what can i do? i think that's a good question. for me, the most important thing is to get our country out of this recession. it has meant that i've cast some very, very tough votes in the past and i will continue to do so in the future. but states can't be bailed out by the federal government. we've got our own budgetary problems. so we need to set the stage for policies that will mean economic growth. let me give you an example. if we pass strong energy independence legislation which means that, finally, we move away from global warming, we will create thousands and millions of jobs in this new alternative energy sector, which will absolutely prime the pump. in terms of stimulating the economy, we've only gotten about 25% of that stimulus money out there. we need to get it out there. i think it is going to make a

very big difference. i think we see already in housing and my state in opinion particular, it looks like we've turned the corner, so my job is to really focus on policies, like getting good health care bill passed, like getting a good climate bill passed. these are the things that are going to directly help the states, as well as our usual appropriations bills and so on. >> senator boxer, i want to ask you about some of the executive pay caps. there has been a lot of talk in recent days and recent weeks about whether or not, once and for all, some of these banks and other institutions that have been bailed out by taxpayers will institute meaningful pay caps and see them through even in the face of the kind of showdown we see at citigroup right now where one trader is looking to receive about a hundred million dollars. do you think there will be significant movement on pay caps for executives, particularly bailed out companies? >> i think when you are bailed out by the taxpayers, how you possibly can take that money and

use it to pay off the very people that got us in trouble makes no sense at all. after you pay back the federal government, every penny, plus interest, then it seems to me you should be able to set the pay. however, i've been one who believes that we ought to have a cap on what a company can deduct on their tax returns. in other words, i don't see how you can allow a deduction for a hundred million dollar pay package so i'm looking at that as an approach. >> senator boxer, thank you so much for joining us. >> thanks for having me on. >> good to have you. ahead, will accelerating the u.s. troop withdrawal from iraq force factions that bury the bad blood once and for all? defense secretary robert gates has a tough love message on the ground in baghdad. plus securing the homeland. obama administration issues new rules for preventing terror attacks on u.s. soil. are the days of color-coded terror alerts about to disappear? we got former secretary of defense william cohen straight

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welcome back to msnbc live. defense secretary robert gates says he sees a chance for the acceleration of u.s. troop withdrawal from iraq for a top in baghdad he warning iraqis they are running out of time to settle their differences between american troops leave. form secretary of defense under president clinton william cohen joins us. good to see you again. >> good to be with you. >> how surprised were you to hear secretary gates say that there may be an accelerated troop withdrawal given all of the continued difficulties, not only in iraq, but next door in afghanistan? >> well, not surprised, but pleased to hear him say that. it would seem to indicate that

greater progress has been made than anticipated and that the iraqis are starting to really take charge of their own country, and so if that's the case, and then they can maintain stability and security, then that would warrant an earlier departure on the part of the american troops. i think it's a bit early to say we've reached that point yet, but the signs appear to be good. >> listen to what secretary -- former secretary of state colin powell had to say on iran and that i want to talk about that country and the challenges going on there. >> iranians have unique ability to take anything we do that is critical of them and turn it against us and to mobilize their population against us. there is a churning taking place right now and i think it is best for us to watch this and let the iranians sort out where they are going. >> is secretary powell right? is less more for the moment? should the u.s. effectively hang back and see what happens?

>> i think that clearly is the case. i agree with secretary powell. we have seen a good deal of turmoil, a crackdown on the rising dissent that is taking place in that country. for us to send any kind of city hall that we are in any way enthusiastically supporting this, i think, would turn against those who are trying to express their opposition to ahmadinejad and others in the claire cal rule. the best thing is watch it unfold and hope that we see the seed of democracy starting to spring forward and produce a different iran that we know today. so i think the best course of action as secretary powell has said is let's just watch it as we can right now. >> secretary cohen, president obama was in moscow recently for a summit and spoke about the need for a strong and prosperous russia. >> right. >> a few days later, vice president biden traveled the

soviet region and spoke in different ways about rush is a, saying it was weak and not getting its act together and we didn't have much business with it. who is making foreign policy in the white house on russia? >> i don't think there's any question that the president of the united states who speaks for this country on foreign policy. i've known vice president biden a long time. we went through congress together in 1972, as a matter of fact, so he is a dear friend. he speaks from the heart and he has his own personal opinions. i think that there are times when he should hold those but it's the president of the united states who articulates and form later foreign policy. >> could i just ask you briefly, 50 years ago, the first two soldiers in vietnam were killed. we're now looking at escalation in afghanistan. history, by analogy, isn't perfect, but what is the exit strategy from afghanistan? how do you define success in afghanistan after we've now -- coming out of iraq, a war that has not made us or the region more secure? >> i think the first thing we have to do is make sure this is

not, quote, america's war. there was an editorial that appeared in "the washington post" several weeks talking about this because there was some of my republican colleagues were suggesting this was obama's war. and they were indicating it's america's war. i would go much further to say this is not just america's war, this is a global war as such in terms of multiple countries having an interest in seeing afghanistan not become a haven for al qaeda or other types of terrorists. to the extent it's perceived as america's war, i think that's going to be very difficult for us because other countries will start to walk away, some already have, and leave the united states trying to bring stability and security and to eliminate the al qaeda elements in taliban, elements in afghanistan. that poses real problems for us, not only for our military men and women who will be serving us but also politically. i'm not sure the american people will than willing to sustain a long-term effort.

it has to be long term and more of a nature building than a military type of response and we need many other countries involved. if they walk away, they're going to see a return of the taliban and al qaeda and that would not be good for anyone. >> secretary cohen, i want to turn to domestic issues, finally. i suspect you probably know professor skip gates up at harvard and you probably have watched that issue unfold. any thoughts there now, almost a week later, about what transpired and what should happen going forward? >> well, i did see secretary powell's comments recently and i agree with him. i think given the history in this country that black people have suffered, historically, there is, obviously, a low threshold in dealing with the police. i can say with some at least experience that white people tend to feel that we're protected and i speak from this. my wife, who is african-american, would say that many black people feel they are being patrolled. and so there's a different

perception on the role of the police in the lives of whites and blacks and that is an issue which has to really be explored. my wife and i, last year, held a conference called race and reconciliation, bringing white people and black people together, saying, let's have an honest dialogue and honest conversation about race. we need to continue that dialogue and, in fact, we are prepared to do that this fall and looking at our criminal justice system and she has been a leader in this and we intend to follow up on it. but i think general powell had it right. should have been adult supervision and both parties should have cooled down. it was a mistake to carry it to the extent that it did, but i think everybody understands now we've got to have cooler heads prevail. >> secretary cohen, thank you for joining us and looking forward to having you again soon. >> great to be with you, carlos. coming up, first trials set for protesters jailed in iran's protest crackdown. should the obama administration increase pressure against iran's

leaders? senator evan bayh, one of the driving forces against tougher sanctions on iran, joins us straight ahead. you're watching msnbc live. ♪ well i was shopping for a new car, ♪ ♪ which one's me - a cool convertible or an suv? ♪ ♪ too bad i didn't know my credit was whack ♪ ♪ 'cause now i'm driving off the lot in a used sub-compact. ♪ ♪ f-r-e-e, that spells free credit report dot com, baby. ♪ ♪ saw their ads on my tv ♪ thought about going but was too lazy ♪ ♪ now instead of looking fly and rollin' phat ♪ ♪ my legs are sticking to the vinyl ♪ ♪ and my posse's getting laughed at. ♪ .m, baby.

i'm carlos watson. now iran just announced the trials will begin this weekend for protesters arrested in the country's post election crackdown. all of this is new graphic reports of political protesters abused in prison. in fact, some detainees reportedly been beaten to death. indiana senator evan bayh now joins me. good to see you again, senator. >> good to be with you, carlos. >> i know that tomorrow on one of your committees, you're going to offer up a fairly substantive bill about dramatically increasing the sanctions on iran. is now the right time to wade into this battle? yesterday, we heard former secretary of state colin powell who almost seemed to say, let's hold back and not get too involved in the iranian situation for fear that they may manipulate our involvement. >> i think now is exactly the

right time. the reason for that is the window of opportunity to actually deal with this problem is rapidly shrinking. the iranians are moving forward as fast as they can to achieve a nuclear xant capability that would destabilize from that region as well as the rest of the world and present us with a dilemma of accepting that or use force to prevent that and that is not a great alternative either. right now, for the next, you know, 9 to 12 months they are vulnerable of imports to refine petroleum. they have a lot of oil but not enough refining capacity. if we confront them with the prospect of sanctions on the importation of refined petroleum products that could be damaging to their economy which is already very weak and perhaps, perhaps get them to rethink their drive to achieve nuclear weapons. >> now could that have any impact here in the u.s.? we know that all of these things are interconnected. could that have any qacket impact here on the gas pump and what is still fairly percentage

fragile u.s. economy? >> no, none whatsoever. this did not deal with the export of oil from iran which, by the way, we don't buy, but it does affect the global market. this deal solely with refined petroleum products going into iran that makes their economy go. the iranians know they are vulnerable and worried about this and why they are moving rapidly to try to expand their own domestic refining capacity so that in other nine months or a year they will no longer be as vulnerable as they are today. now is the window of opportunity for acting. if we don't the opportunity will have passed and we will be confronted with difficult choices. >> you have within iran deploring the crackdown on iranian protesters but you have some of the most significant divisions within the ruling establishment that we've seen in decades. so sanctions have been counterproductive in the past. why now this window of opportunity? why not try engagement not to legitimatize whoever emerges in this iranian government but to do better in reducing the threat of an iranian nuclear program?

>> katrina, i think you have to do both. i'm not suggesting sanctions are the -- an alternative to engagement. i think you need to have a straightforward negotiations. i think you say here is what in it for you in terms of of your economy and global acceptance on the stage, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. if you don't here is the price you will pay. to date, you're right. the sanctions are -- well, some of the financial sanctions have wale actually increased the cost of doing business but not enough to get them to change their behavior. a straightforward answer is prospect meaningful sanctions might not work but it's worth a try because the alternative is much worse than achieving nuclear weapons. you go with the sanctions. the prospect of sanctions if the negotiations -- if the engagement is not successful. >> senator, i want to ask you about the increase of special

ops and covert operations. i know you're involved with our intelligence effort and sitting on the armed service committee. does the u.s., given these various issues we have around the globe, including afghanistan, pakistan and et cetera, do we need to dramatically increase our funding for special operations and step forward in a meaningful way in terms of our covert efforts? >> well, it's one of the most successful things that we do, special ops. obviously, we can't talk about covert action, but any time you can deal with some of these problems, it's a lot better than having you know, people killed in a war and that sort of thing. we are stepping up our investment in this area. i think going forward we need to do more. we had a big debate about the f-22 fighter plane and billions of dollars and been at war in iraq and afghanistan quite some time and that weapon system has not been used in either of those conflicts. covert action is -- it's

international security interests. makes sense to do more of what you've suggested. >> thank you for joining us. look forward to having you again soon. >> thank you, carlos and katrina. >> good to see you. for more on the topics we're discussing check out carloswatson.msnbc.com. coming up, great escape. whether it's romance novels or the super natural on the big screen we take a look at how americans are escaping the reality of the hard economic times through a little imagination. we explain coming up. h whoa! honey honey honey honey honey! okay... i mean... you can't... this isn't a stove, alright? i mean... what if i just walked into the kitchen and started making a salad? - that'd be weird. - right? i mean, look, there's a technique. - okay... - ( strikes match ) wow. it's okay, everyone. - thanks, hon. - you're welcome. announcer: yep, it's that easy,

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to being able to manage your diabetes properly. it's very important for me to uh check my blood sugar before i go on stage. being on when i'm feeling low can be like a rollercoaster. it does at times feel like my body is telling me to do one thing... and, my mind, my heart is telling me to do something else. managing my highs and lows is super important. with my contour meter i can personalize my high/lo settings so it really does micromanage where my blood sugar needs to be. i'm nick jonas and never slowing down is my simple win. president obama is in raleigh, north carolina. a few minutes he will be holding another town meeting on health care this time. nbc white house correspondent savannah guthrie joins us now. will the president be holding a

second town hall -- i realize he is hold ago second town hall in virginia later today. is there a sense any of this is actually changing the debate on health care? >> that's really the question, isn't it? we've seen in polls an nbc is going to debut a poll today that health care reform and this whole debate has really hurt the president in some of the polling numbers, so he sgoing out there and doing these events which, of course, here at the white house, they feel some of the best things we do. they think he is their best advocate for their argument. he is trying to sharpen and retool that argument today. we're going to hear him really try to focus on what health care reform would do for those americans who already have insurance. the watch word from the white house are stability and security. i mean, they know, obviously, health insurance is a huge problem in this country right now. when they talk about health care reform means you have coverage you can count on they are essentially sending a message if you're insecure about your job and you worry if your lost your

job you would lose your health care insurance that is a concrete benefit you will get out of health care reform so that is the message they are trying to send by focusing not just on what health care means for those who don't have insurance but for the americans who do. let's face it, more americans have insurance than don't. >> is there any talk about bringing celebrities into the conversation? i mean, honestly it seems like they have having trouble galvanize people to what seems to be a very emotional and personal issue and lots of good stories. but maybe they somehow need to jump-start the process. has there been any conversation about the white house bringing some celebrities to talk about the issue? >> i don't know about celebrities. but i know this is an issue that gets talked about a lot within the white house. i think there's an acknowledgment that their message isn't getting through and that is why we see, for example, today, a slight retooling, a slight adjustment. you know, part of the issue here is that health care reform, the

problems of diagnose, the problem why we need health care reform from the president's perspective is a little bit hidden, right? he talks about premiums going up. well, look. most people pay their premiums through their paychecks and never look at it again. it comes right out. they never see it so if their premium is going up they may be generally aware of it but it's not something they notice like writing a car payment every month. they've got to really cut through and break through and get the message across not just what health care reform would do but why it's necessary in the first place. >> savannah, thank you so much. if you have ideas on health care that you want to share bus, what the president and the white house could be doing, go to twitter.com back slash carlos watson and we'll talk about that later in the show. it turns out americans are looking to comedy did and romance during an escape in the economic recession. americans heading to the movies are choosing comedy and fantasy and animated flicks.

sharon waxman is the founder of rap.com and joins us now. interesting. you would think in some ways the book business would be cool off and be a luxury people would step away from it but sounds like that may not be the case during this recession? >> yeah. i think the book business overall is struggling the same way that newspapers are struggling. but don't forget it is summertime and as you point out, it's a really tough economic time and people are looking for all kinds of escape. so you've got two things going on. one is that we've already seen at the box office that people do want to escape and it might be one reason the health care message ain't getting through that you referred to and maybe they need to get hollywood screen writers to get in there to get the public to pay attention in a romance, perhaps. >> little grey's anatomy help maybe? >> i'm not kidding. "e.r." took on the issues through the '90s and it penetrated through to the public.

now, it's clear that what people want is escapist fantasy and the romance is about as escape as you can get. that is a welcome boost to the book business which has been going through a crisis. >> sharon, i want to bring in katrina here. are you reading more, katrina, during this recession? >> i'm not your candidate here. but the publishing industry is suffering as sharon said. and it's interesting. as in any great economic downturn during the economic depression, the film business did very, very well. i think americans are seeking escape, as sharon says and i do think she's right that the messaging out of the white house, you got the greatest celebrity in america in the white house right now in president obama. >> john mccain was right on that? >> no. president obama messaging the clear compelling human stories and the moral. >> that's what i don't get. i feel like we don't hear the human stories. we don't hear the erin

brockovich stories. >> completely true. >> we hear instead about blue dogs and process, about public option. >> i would be interested in what sharon thinks. it's been lost in this accounting in washington as opposed to the moral human story. >> well, that was my thought also. i just got back from washington last night so i'm really coming with an outside washington perspective. i was really surprised to see what the tenor of the conversation is like. you have a guy who is usually pitch perfect. through that campaign, he knew exactly how to communicate beautifully and eloquently. and why he has lost that ability to tell -- he leveraged his personal story which is so compelling throughout the campaign and they know how to -- there's two things. one is leveraging personal stories which is what you're talking about. and the other thing is bypassing all of the powers that be, the media establishment like the cable news networks, like the big newspapers, and going directly to people through e-mail but for god sake, the man invented that.

i don't know why he is not doing that and sorry to divert from the harlequin question. it's very -- i think it's very striking to me. >> sharon raises an important question. i think this is a defining moment, not just for america as to whether we have a system that can pass a health care system for all americans but for president obama. because he was a brilliant campaigner. he went out and he spoke about change from below. hasn't mobilized that change from below. he has been too inside d.c. and i also think it's a defining moment for him as a leader. he was a great campaigner. but can he lead? can he be lbj before vietnam when lbj knocked heads to get some of the great legislation in this country. you got to lead to do that and he has stepped back a little bit too much. >> sharon waxman, only 30 seconds. before we go, you were at comic con. speaking of fun things to do during this recession. >> yeah. >> one of the major comedy conferences. tell me what you saw there. another little bit of anomaly during this recession.

>> well, that's a crazy event. it's a comic book event so it's like the geeks from all over the world come. but it's become sort of the definitive place for all of the movies to debut because you have the most crazy passionate fans there, so you have young girls lined up, sleeping in line to see the stars from twilight, robert patterson and kristen stewart and have four movies in the works. this debuted there last week where you could feel the level of the room was off the charts and those of us grown-ups hadn't actually heard about this movie. it's a really good place to get the buzz going. and so, you know, twilight was one of them and avotar that is coming at the end of the year which supposedly is going to change film-going. that is how innovative that movie is supposed to be. it's interesting. >> sharon waxman, thank you for joining us and see you next wednesday, huh? >> yes.

thanks. coming up, democrats at odd against health care. are they playing in republican hands? paul ryan will join us. we want to hear what you think about the great health care debate. does president obama need to do something different innovative and maybe help with messaging and begin to wag his finger at democrats? twitter me. you see my face and click on it and let me know what you think. we'll talk about it during the show. you're watching msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. carol! denise! you've lost weight! it's just all these giant things make me look small. i eat this fiber one yogurt. (mr. mehta) it has five grams of fiber, zero fat, and fifty calories. please, this is too creamy and delicious. it's true, only fifty calories. (announcer) fiber one yogurt. some pharmacies make you work for it with memberships and fees. but not walmart.

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welcome back to msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. now with the august recess looming health care negotiations are continuing on capitol hill today after six hours of negotiations house democrat leaders and key blue dog democrats broke up last night

without a deal. republican congressman from wisconsin paul ryan now joins us. good to see you, sir. >> hey, how are you doing today, carlos and katrina? >> very well. you ro wrote recently in the "milwaukee wisconsin journal sentinel the following. now, i know not only have you been in congress several terms but you worked on the hill a couple of different senators and you know this issue has been around a long time. are republicans being genuine in their complaint this is moving too quickly? >> west yes. . i don't think we should pass bills that we don't know what they cost. i don't think that is being abusive. i have already proposed other legislation, a number of republicans are proposing alternatives. you can look at the patient's

choice act on my facebook page and see many proposals we put out there to say let's get everybody insured and everybody insured who has pre-existing conditions and you can do this without the government taking over and without all of these new taxes and new spending programs. so we want to see how health care reform is done but we want to do it right. if you rush this through before anybody each knows what it is, that's not good democracy. that is not doing our work for our constituents. what is wrong with going home for august, having town hall meetings, listening to our constituents and then coming back in september and doing this right? >> congressman, what about the reverse? what is wrong with staying in session at a time when 14,000 americans are losing their health care every day in which people are going bankrupt and in which we know we've got a real problem here and more and more people are losing -- what is wrong with congress stopping all of that and staying in session and working through it for the good money that they get paid? >> so you don't think we should go home and listen to our constituents? >> i think you should go home each weekend. i think you go home each weekend.

>> go home each weekend? >> correct. you can listen to your constituents which i agree is an important thing to do and don't disagree with that but i don't know that you need to be gone for a month. and i know people aren't going home for the weekend to listen to their constituents. they are going overseas to different parts of europe. you and i know that -- >> i'm doing a dozen town hall meetings on health care. i'm not going to europe or anywhere else like that. but let's just concede the point. you're right. we could work this thing through but we shouldn't rush this thing through just to rush it through for some artificial deadline. let's get this thing done right. so look. we have differences of opinions here but the problem that this plan has experienced is it has run face into the fact and the facts are the congressional budget office is telling us this makes our fiscal situation worse. this increased health care costs and doesn't decrease health care costs. this new entitlement that is being proposed grows faster enmedicare and medicaid and

creates deficits now and in the future. that is not my opinion but what the congressional budget office is telling us and that does not meet the president's proposal. that does not meet the president's goal of bending the health care cost curve and being neutral. >> i want to ask you, you have good government plan health care. why shouldn't all americans have what you have? >> i have good private sector health care. we do not have a public sector -- >> that is employee plan? >> that is right. the federal employee plan. a list of private plans to choose from to select and my employer, you, the taxpayer, pays for a portion of that, of these private plans. >> with a public plan option? >> is there no public plan option in the federal employee health benefit plan. you're mistaken on that point. my patients choice act which i introduced with other senators and congressmen proposes what you're suggesting is give people the ability in state basic exchanges to have a plan like we have here in congress. a private health care plan that

is actuarially equivalent to what we have in congress. we had a vote in the ways and means committee which amendment i had let's put all members in the public health care plan so we can experience the same thing we want to impose on the rest of the country. that amendment failed. >> sounds like that sounds like an anti-competitive vote. competition is at the heart of america and to deny americans competition by denying them the option of a public plan, it seems to me, uncertain. >> you know what is weird about that line there? katrina, i know you and others are very much in favor of a single-payer plan which is to deny competition and have the government run it at all. what is concerning about this debate to wme you're using capitalist rhetoric to move a plan that is anti-market. the problem is the facts tell us this. the public plan option quickly becomes a government-run monopoly. the reason is the public plan has so many inherent advantages against the private sector that

the private sector can't fairly compete and what the actuaries are telling us in a few short years the public plan option displaces the private sector, qloirs dump their employees on the public plan and then have no choices but the public plan. so let's not try and sell a government-run plan using free market rhetoric. let's have honest debate on what this is all about. >> congressman, i want to come back to this conversation and while you're in wisconsin next month i hope you will join us from wisconsin because i'd like to continue this conversation. >> if you want to come to wisconsin, i'd be happy to have you. >> would love to do that or at least it would be via satellite. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> with the popularity of gossip web sites exploding who is policing them? minutes from now, at noon eastern, stay with msnbc for live coverage as the woman who called 911 triggering the arrest of harvard professor skip gates speaks publicly for the first time. you're watching msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. ( shouting )

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welcome took msnbc live. love perusing gossip website bus confused what is fact and what is fiction, now a new side to add to your favorites, gossipcop.com is the first website to police the gossip industry. dan abrams and mike bluetis are the founders of goes is sipc-- gossipcop what made you do it? >> over the past 15 years, i have seen the whole industry evolving, starting out with people who are good june lists and bloggers weren't journalist bus printing what ever was outrageous rather than accurate. their numbers went up. they decided at that point, this is a formula that works. >> where do you put the perez hilton's of the world in this sphere? >> you know, stipes he's got great sources and other times, he is dead wrong. on his site still, he has fidel

castro is dead. >> is that right? >> absolutely. you can check it. >> all right. all right. so, if i go to gossipcop.com, i do that each day why? >> because you're going to see all these other stories and want to know what's true and what's not true. you probably hear a few stories and go that is a good story but i tell you it is only a story and not true or point out where someone has a really big scoop and i will applaud them for that. >> dan why did you -- we are in the middle of a recession, lots of companies are laying off, you now started not one but two new companies two new web businesses, mediaite, six weeks ago and this one. what made you jump into a fray? >> as a lawyer, i know there are few legal remedies when people get the stories wrong. gossipcop is the place to go when you want to correct the story. >> interesting. are you looking for some celebrity to jump in and say, you know what -- >> i'm hoping they are going to call michael, that their

representatives will trust michael and say hey but that doesn't mean he is going to trust them every time. means he will have a reporter's nose here and say is this true or isn't it? and we have a rumor reel thermometer on the side says on a one to ten basis or zero to ten how confident is mikal and the team that that story is accurate? >> katrina, i want to get you in here, your thoughts as you hear this. >> i mean, i read "s weekly" every week, my daughter gets a subscription, love gossip. i have to say with all due respect to dan and mike 58, i think we need a lot more policing of things we have heard on the show just before this segment. we need policing of covert ops, policing of lobbyists -- >> don't lecture me about what i should do, why don't you do do it? >> that is what the nation does, 144 years. >> this is what i do on mediaite, i have a site that policesed the media, not the

gossip sites but media like you. >> all power to you, dan. all i'm saying with the limited resources -- >> i understand. but i don't want to come on television to be lectured by you about what i should and shouldn't be doing. >> i didn't mean to lecture, what i bea live would be a valuable contribution to our country. >> bottom line, the final point, i think that what happens on the gossip world i think undermines faith in the mainstream media, meaning that i think the reason people sometimes don't trust the mainstream media on political issues is, in part, batesed on what happens in the gossip world. people say, you know what so many stories thought inaccurate this he don't believe the people doing the hard reporting every day on the most important stories of the day. time for more media accountability. >> that is partly -- if i could just say there has been an obliteration of the line between information and entertainment, dan, which you know well and that contributed to what you're describing. maybe your site will help us understand. >> i hope so. >> that on lit racial. >> i hate to do this, we have to

leave it there our thanks to katrina, dan, michael. i love this. end spirited. >> a battle. >> gossipcop.com. and hand it over to dr. nancy snyderman who is going to pick up our coverage from here. you are watching msnbc. she is straight ahead. free nights from hotels.com. how? well, funny you should ask. you see, after i book 10 nights, i get a free one. say i spend 2 nights at a big name hotel, 3 at a boutique, and 5 at a beach resort... and boom! free night. ( dings, monkey chatters ) ( in a baby voice ) aren't you a smart one? ( monkey laughs ) accumulate 10 nights and get a night free. welcomerewards from hotels.com. smart. so smart.