care for all americans, and that ensures affordable access for all americans and is pro-life because it will not put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government. >> i just want to know, lizz, was that scripted or was she winging that? >> here's the thing about reverse foxx. she is from the great state of north carolina, who has a sort of getting rid of the elderly plan, which is called the tobacco industry. so she is -- that is hypocrisy at its fine fast you ask me, when somebody from the great tobacco state of north carolina is talking about health care. >> now, what do you make of these ads that are going out, comparing americans, saying that there's going to be a government takeover? wide receivergoing to have the government get in between, you know, our doctors? >> it's crazy because, you know, your friend tony perkins, i've seen him on your show. your friend, tony perkins. i call him your friend, tony perkins. i must give you grief about it. the family research council has started this ad where you see

two horrible elderly actors, the worst i've ever seen, and they're at a kaffeklatsch together. the man says, oh my got, i can't get my nebulous treatment i need, they're going to give all the health care money to planned parenthood for abortion! what? there's no mention of abortion in any of the plans as far as i know. they're just going to keep ratcheting it up. you're going to see more of these ads with more scared old people, more scared people in general, just saying, they're not going to -- they're going to give my unborn baby lippitor! they're going to give lesbians breast implants but i'm not going to get my treatment! it's just going to be crazy. >> it is crazy. lizz winstead, always a pleasure to have you. you mention your mom every now and then. she's hanging in there. you've got her squared away on this? >> no. you know, she won't watch me on this show. she'll turn it down to see what my hair looks like. she thinks you and i are the

devil. she's awful. >> we'll see you next friday. earlier in the show i asked you what you thought are the good economic signs proof big movement works? 89% said yes, 11% said no. have a great weekend. i'll be at the baghdad theater tonight in portland, oregon. we'll see you next week on "the ed show" right here on msnbc. lunatic fringe. let's play "hardball." leading off tonight -- well, good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, lunar watch. a republican leader in congress put out word today that i am responsible for the weird word that president obama is from another country. actually, and we need to use that word more often these days, actually a new poll shows that a majority of republicans, nearly six in ten now, either believe the president was born elsewhere

than the united states or are, quote, not sure about it. yes, this is a problem for the republicans. it's also a problem that while only one in ten americans give any real credence to this strange claim, the main source of this barack is a foreigner notion can be traced to one part of the country. the south. the rest of the country, north, west, midwest, thinks it's beneath any real consideration. what does this say? why the south? why do so many southerners polled say they're not sure or say barack obama was definitely born out of the united states? troubling, isn't it? also, home sweet home tonight. members of congress are heading home for the august recess and town halls, but what can they expect when they get there? with health care reform up in the air, democrats are nervous. republicans are on the offense, and both sides are finding themselves the targets of tough new tv ads. a lot of members are wary of even holding traditional town meetings because they're turning into chaotic mob scenes.

new information about karl rove's role in the firing of those eight u.s. attorneys. let's look into what he did. interesting numbers coming out of alaska. you know, all politics is local. well, ex-governor sarah palin's negative numbers, her unfavorable number is now higher than her favorable number. are people mad at her for quitting or what? maybe they're just mad at her. that's in "the politics fix." rudy giuliani, big surprise here, takes the policeman's side in the case of the cambridge professor. that's in the "hardball sideshow." first tonight, the birthers, they're called. karen finney is the former spokeswoman for the democratic national committee, and todd harris is a former adviser to john mccain. you're smiling, todd, but i'm going to talk to you about something that's not worthy of smiling about. a research 2000 poll done by "daily coast" shows that 77% of the country believes the president is one of us, an american, born here, raised here, elected here. 11% believe this thing out there

about the birthers movement, that he was somehow born somewhere else. 12%, the same 1 in 10, believe they're not sure. they don't know what they're talking about. democrats and independents overwhelmingly by the way say, yes, he was born here, and elected properly, legitimately so. but a majority of republicans, self-identified republicans, six out of ten now say either they don't think he was born here or their quote, they say, not sure. nine out of ten people in the northeast, nine out of ten people in the northwest, nine out of ten people in the west say, yes, of course he was born here. you get down to the south and more than half have a problem. he think he was born somewhere else or their quote, they say, not sure. what do you make of this? eric cantor, he's one of the republican leaders of the congress, he said, quote, mr. cantor -- i love the way he speaks for him like he's the pope, mr. cantor finds it ironic that those most eager to talk about the president's citizenship are, in fact, some

of his biggest cheerleaders, whether it's chris matthews or others on msnbc, "the huffington post" or camera toting liberal bloggers chasing people through the streets of washington. well, maybe we should show -- let's watch the video of one liberal blogger. this is mike stark trying to get a straight answer out of some members of congress on this birther question. >> i would like to talk to you but i am -- no, no, no, no. r >> quick question. >> no, no. >> do you believe barack obama was born in the united states? >> you know, i have to go right now. i wish i could talk to you right now. but i'm on my way -- >> people are going to think i'm tugging you. >> what i don't know is why the president can't produce a birth certificate. i don't know anybody else that can't produce one. i think that's a legitimate question. no health records, no birth certificate -- >> he's produced a certificate of live birth, right? >> not that i've -- i don't believe so. >> no, he has. chris matthews held it up on "hardball" the other night. >> talk to chris matthews. >> you can talk to me mr. blunt.

i like mr. blunt but you know what, i think he's playing games here, guys. he knows you can't get a passport unless you show your birth certificate. you can't do a lot of things without showing it. this guy has produced his birth certificate. this health records thing i have no idea what he's talking about. it seems to me your party, todd, is playing to the whack jobs. they're having fun with this issue. they don't want to say no to them. people like senator shelby have their press plaques go out and say, he doesn't believe this stuff. they personally, when asked about it, refuse to knock it down. we now have more than ten members of congress who are on record demanding that all future presidential candidates produce a birth certificate as if they haven't done so far. we're looking at pictures of them. this is not my imagination. the republican party has gone nativist. it's becoming like the know nothing party of old. what is going on, todd harris? >> whew. >> well, that's a great question. >> that's a long intro. >> yeah, and i'm going to you down in texas, by the way.

most of these members seem to be from texas, the state that wants to leave the union according to rick perry, the governor, is the one that doesn't think he's from the union. this is fraught with irony. a guy named ted poe, a member named kenny marchant, a member named lewis gumert, a member named john carter. it doesn't surprise me dan burton is on this list. the guy that likes to shoot up cantaloupes. randy neueberger. why do you have so many texans who think the president is not from our country? >> well, i don't know. i'm in austin. i guarantee you none of them are here in austin. >> well, austin is a pretty smart town, i know. >> i think that this whole issue is ridiculous, frankly. i think the people who are pushing this issue are not a bit nuts, but a lot nuts, and i have to tell you, chris, you talk about republicans playing games with this issue as if there's some strategy behind it. every single republican consultant i know rolls their eyes at this issue and wants it actually to go away because i

think we are making real traction taking on the president on, you know, his massive government health care bill, wasteful spending in the stimulus bill. all of these issues, real substantive issues that i think actually matter on election day. we're getting in some good licks against the white house. and this issue is a massive distraction from all of that. i don't know a single republican strategist or consultant who enjoys any of this, but i will say, i do have to agree with cantor's office. it seems to be people in the mainstream media and people who are more on the left who are giving the platform to this whole ridiculous movement -- >> todd, stop. >> to even have his voice heard. >> come on, todd. that's a little ridiculous. it's a legitimate thing to say -- to make the republican members of congress have to explain this kind of ridiculous idea that's floating out there. let's be honest, a number of them don't have the guts to say to the camera they think it's crazy and ridiculous. why?

probably they don't want to offend the whack jobs at home just like they didn't want to offend rush limbaugh. the fact that they're trying to have it both ways here, on the one hand trying to say it's democrats making an issue of it, but then on the other hand you do have a legitimate birther people who are -- i think they're a little crazy, but then you don't have any -- not one single republican member willing to say, you know what? this is ridiculous. we need to move on. so you can't really have it both ways. >> john boehner said as much two days ago, but the mere fact that -- >> none of the others have. >> well, he is our leader. the mere fact that karen thinks we should be talking about this, i think -- >> i actually don't think you should be talking about, it todd. i'm actually more concerned what you're concerned with is getting licks in against the president rather than actually solving problems. >> why is roy blunt out there -- >> chris wanted to talk about it. >> just a minute, todd. you're my good buddy. why do you think roy blunt is out there pushing this issue. we saw him do it on camera. we can show it again if you

like. he's out there saying he wants to see the president's birth certificate. he was up there on the platform during inaugural day. why didn't he come down and ask the guy who was about to be sworn in, can i see your birth certificate? why is he doing this now, todd harris? >> i have no answer for that. i think it's inexplicable. look. >> hah! >> the national review, which is hardly a left wing publication, just wrote an entire editorial saying this whole thing is ridiculous. of course he has a valid birth certificate. of course he is an american citizen. the more we talk about this, the less we're able to talk about obama's massive takeover of our health care system, and i think that's an issue that more people should be talking about. >> you know, chris, there are a couple points here. one, if you remember, there was an issue during the campaign about, as todd should know quite well, john mccain's birthright given he was born in the panama canal. there were a handful of members of the congress including hillary clinton and barack obama who passed a measure to point out how ridiculous it was and how important it was to move on.

past that. you know, the other point i would make about this -- >> this is a different story, karen, totally different story. >> it's not a different story. really if we're going to get into this whole -- >> karen, it's not -- >> chris. >> they're raising whether he's american or not. it's not whether he was technically born out of the country. they don't believe the guy named barack hussein obama is one of us. they are pushing it this morning, kenya, not that he was technically ineligible. >> if we really want to play this game, which is ridiculous obviously, which i don't really want to, you know. there were people who wanted to try to raise that issue on the fringe of the left during the campaign. and we said that's not how we're going to win this election. we're going to win this election on the issues, and we did win the election. but the other thing i want to point out that i think this poll shows, here you have the base of the republican party shrinking, and we're really starting to see that in 2006 where you started to lose support among hispanic voters. we saw the trend continue in 2008 where republicans lost support among african-american voters, young voters, women voters.

this is what's happening to the republican party. the shrinking base of the republican party is this narrow percentage that apparently believes in this birther issue. and i think a lot of republicans don't want to accept the fact that we won, and this president is actually trying to move forward and do some things for the country. >> let's talk about the republican party for a second, your party, todd. it seems to me you're losing -- you lost specter, although that was opportunistic. obviously. you lost specter. obviously his opportunism is based on the fact that your party is in bad shape in the northeast. you lost -- you're losing all kinds -- you have no members of congress from new england. you have one or two left in new york. it's dying out as a political party in the northeast. meanwhile, you got voinovich, the lame duck senator from ohio, i have never seen a member of the senate say this, we have too many jim demints and tom coburns, it's the southerners. people hear them and say these people are southerners, the party is being taken over by southerners. what the hell they got to do

with sinus i have never heard such a regional attack over within a party. i have never heard the democrats -- what do you make of your party? it seems to be having a geographic divide here. >> i couldn't disagree with senator voinovich more. the problem is not too many jim demints. the problem is we don't enough george voinovichs in places like ohio and enough candidates who can run and more importantly win in places like the northeast. but i will say that given everything -- i think the greatest gift ironically to the republican party's chances next year is how far to the left president obama and the democratically controlled congress has moved, and you look at the congressional generic ballot, republicans are moving up every single week. >> can i suggest where your party went wrong and then i will let karen take over. your party went wrong when george bush, the governor of texas, a young guy, didn't know much about a lot of things, asked the senior uncle figure his avuncular figure, dick

cheney, to pick his vice president for him. dick cheney somehow picked himself as chairman of that committee. >> convenient. >> in picking himself, he knocked apart a guy like tom ridge, who was a good moderate republican from pennsylvania. if your ticket had been built north/south, a texas governor, a pennsylvania governor, you would have had a reasonable party representing the country. instead, you got an oil patch party put together through the -- well, i think the mischief of dick cheney knocking out ridge from consideration. do you agree with me, your party would be a lot healthier if you didn't have dick cheney, who talked us into the war in iraq and did everything else lousy in that last administration that you can point to. isn't that where you went wrong, cheney? >> look, you know -- >> come on. isn't he the root of evil? isn't he what's causing the problem? >> i have no idea if something that didn't happen had happened how things would be today. what i will tell you is that the fact that george w. bush was not on the ballot in '08, won't be

on the ballot in 2010, i know that's putting a lot of people on the left just in fits, but -- >> we did just fine in '08 without him. >> but he's not leading the republican party anymore. >> we did fine in '08 without him. i want to put in a plug. because i have family members, democrats in the south, in north carolina and southern virginia, so i don't -- so i think they'd be a little offended to think that it's all about being republican. i want to give a little plug because there are a few folks around that fly the flag for democrats, but again -- >> karen, you missed my point. thank you. >> chris, it was a joke. >> you missed my point. >> it was a joke. >> i know. you missed my point. thank you, karen, for holding the flag down there. anyway. todd harris, thank you, sir. what a good sport you are to hold the flag as the party goes down. coming up, with the august recess upon us, what will members of congress face when they go home? well, angry mobs apparently are disrupting the town hall meetings all over the place. tough new ads running against everybody. i think they're going to go on vacation myself.

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welcome back to "hardball." august is nearly here, and there's still no health care bill. president obama acts like there's an urgency to getting this done, but why isn't anybody else acting that way? where are the people marching in the streets? the streets are empty in this town. if they really want it, where are they? ron brown, political director for "atlantic media." susan page, washington bureau page. i do not want to knock health care. i believe this country needs a health care plan for everybody, especially the uninsured, but the streets are empty. disabled people come here, gay rights people come here, anti-war people come here, pro-life people come here. when someone wants something,

they fill the streets of washington. susan page, the streets are empty. >> the august deadline was a political deadline -- >> where are am people since january when this president was elected? there's no public demonstration of support for health care. >> i think the white house has been a little surprised at the trouble of ginning up the support from this network that was so helpful during the campaign on the issue of health care. i think it may be a question of timing. obama thought you needed to get it done before august because he knows he's fighting a lot of battles. he needs to get it done while he's still pretty popular. i think when they come back the sense of urgency will be there. people do expect something to happen by the end of the year -- >> you slipped over the visuals. this august the president will be up there with his very attractive family hanging out with the celebs in martha's vineyard. nothing wrong with that. except, it's a time he said it's urgent that we getting some done. is that going to seem too complacent? >> i think their plan is not, as you suggest, to have a major focus from him in terms of big drive in august. i think your larger point is correct. in general, across the board,

whether it was stimulus, climate change, or now health care, i think the organization of the left has not been what the white house would have hoped and expected. there really hasn't -- they have not been able to generate the kind of grassroots pressure, particularly in the marginal districts with the blue dog democrats, the moderate republicans, the democrats from red states. 22 democratic senators from states who voted for bush. they have not been able to -- and what's really striking about all of this, chris, is if you think about what's not happening. they are having trouble generating pressure for this even after obama has been successful at neutralizing the biggest guns in industry that helped mobilize to beat clinton. you don't have the drug industry out there with ads against it. you don't have the insurance industry out there, the hospitals. >> there's no harry and louise. >> the doctors are more supportive than not. despite that, the general trend in public opinion has been moving away from them, and that says that they are losing the message war at this point even without the biggest guns that could be arrayed against them. >> it's a complicated issue. it's not like abortion. you are for or against abortion. you are for or against gays in the military. health care is a very

complicated set of interconnecting issues, one affects the other, and i think it's true that it's been harder maybe than they expected to get things going in the house and senate, but it's just a different sort of issue. there is urgency. a lot of urgency for people who lack coverage like up to 50 million americans, and a different kind of urgency maybe for people who have insurance and are worried about costs going up or having to deal day and night with their insurance company. >> why isn't the president out there selling -- you know, they used to say in politics, play your strengths. maybe they should. >> he seems to be defensive. he says this won't hurt you. we won't have people coming to your house telling you how to die, that stuff. fighting that fire. instead of saying, you know, what kind of a country do you want to live in? do you want to live in a country where 50 million people don't have health insurance? they have to go to the emergency room? do you want to live in that country? do you want to live in a country where when you change jobs you lose your health insurance? do you want to live in a country where pre-existing conditions can nail you from any real coverage? he doesn't seem to be making the positive case. >> i think they have to move more to focus on what this would mean to people with insurance.

85% of american dozen have insurance. there's been analysts like drew altman of the kaiser foundation who studies health issues who argued from the beginning the key variable would be whether people are insured believe it would hurt or help them. those numbers started positive for the administration, they have moved in the wrong direction -- >> michael moore did a better job with the movie "sicko" than this guy's done because michael moore aimed that movie -- maybe because ticket prices are 12 bucks to see a movie -- and said, you think you're insured? they got experts, doctors down at the insurance company knocking off every benefit you're trying to get. the president hasn't been doing that. >> that's true, although i do think they have now discovered insurance companies are unpopular. health insurance companies. and you hear rhetoric from the white house and from the hill -- blaming and calling them villains -- >> speaker pelosi is now finally doing -- she's trying to -- >> there's some contradictions in that in that the administration and the hill have been working more closely with the insurance industry than clinton was able to and they

agree on certain key elements of the proposal. which is basically trading an individual mandate on people who buy insurance -- in fundal and transfer form. >> i'm with you. >> for the administration to turn around and make them the demon blocking reform isn't as credible as it might have been -- >> george haggan was the moderate republican senator from vermont who said, let's declare war in vietnam and come home. like that guy said, that colonel in iraq. should the president say what all i ever wanted was the whole country to be in this together and if i can get an individual mandate from the time you turn 18 or 21 like you do with a car, you have to join a national health insurance program, i have won. >> go back to susan's point. the problem is once you require individuals to buy insurance, which is the key to fundamental reform by bringing everybody into the risk pool, once you do that, you have to make it affordable for them. the only way to make it affordable is to provide government subsidies to help people of moderate income. pay for that insurance. once you do that you're back to the question of how do you pay for it. you really can't just do that

one thing and escape the larger problem you have -- >> okay. are we going to have -- let's jump ahead. let's be really smart here. come october or november this year, around thanksgiving, when they're playing -- they always let the turkey go, the president does that bs thing. >> pardons. >> pardons the turkey. around that time will the president sign a bill that's gotten through both houses that basically says you have to join, that basically sets up some kind of network of cooperatives that allows you to get a cheaper rate than you might get from an insurance company? will we have that? >> look, i think the democrats have opened door number one. they have gone through door number one in 1993 and '94. door number one was allowing the whole thing to collapse. when they went through door number one, they lost control of congress and stayed out of power for 12 years. there's a lot of fear about going through door number two and actually doing something, but it's hard to imagine they will conclude that the risk of going through door number two is bigger than the risk of going through door number one. >> defeat is a loser. allowing this --

>> losing on this bill is defeat. >> there will be a bill, but the question is how big a bill -- >> do you buy that argument that ron just said? if you lose, you lose -- then you have to become a dick morris democrat. basically. >> and you've got a democratic president, 60 votes in the senate, how are you going to not -- >> here is my theory. this president ran as a transformational president. he didn't want to be another president like clinton or jerry ford. he wants to be like ronald reagan or franklin roosevelt. if he gives up on this bill, if he loses on this bill, he ends up being just another survivor president like clinton. hanging in there, doing school uniforms. am i tough enough? >> you will have a bill, but how big a bill and how bipartisan. >> one thing to keep in mind, the specifics of the bill still poll better than the general, overall do you support where the congress is going, which is yes. the administration -- the opponents are doing a better job of defining the bill. that's the one ray of light for them. in this polling. be specific. >> who wants to be on the "titanic" knowing there's only enough lifeboats for the rich? that's the problem. >> the rich are okay with that.

>> that's what we have to keep asking. are you happy to live in a country where huge numbers of people don't have health insurance? thank you ron and susan. up next -- by the way, the president can have that metaphor if he wants to. up next -- remember when sarah palin was called the most popular governor in america? wait until you see her latest numbers. they're taking a dive. she's in a snowbank up there. [ female announcer ] new swiffer wet jet cleans so deep,

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back to "hardball." time for the "sideshow." first up, rudy giuliani takes sides again. famous or infamous for always siding with police, former new york mayor rudolph giuliani did it again last night as he positioned himself opposite from president obama on the professor gates episode and what we can learn from it. >> he's actually right. it is teachable. here is the lesson. shut up. also, shut up when a cop is asking you questions. how about you don't insult them, you don't yell, you don't scream. my father taught me that when i was young.

i grew up in brooklyn. it was a good lesson. >> the mayor is right about what you're supposed to say to a police officer, but what about what a police officer is supposed to say and do to you, how he's supposed to treat all people the same. that's the question the president tried, rightly or wrongly, to answer. next up, my old boss tip o'neill once noted all politics is local. what does a number like this mean for the once popular governor of alaska? look at that number. 48% of alaskans now have negative feelings about governor palin edging out the 47% who have positive feelings. back in may of 2008, a year ago, that same poll had her positive rating at 86%. she's had a 40% drop. the new numbers are a less than ideal springboard, you might say, for a presidential campaign run in 2012. more on the ex-governor's troubles in alaska in tonight's "politics fix." now for tonight's "big number." what else press secretaries are masters at the art of dodging questions. each one over the years picks out his evasive method of choice. current press secretary robert

gibbs, his favorite tactic, he says, i'm not going to get into it. >> i'm not going to get into commenting on what is or is not accurate in the media. i'm not going to get into the politics of and the demographics of it. i'm not going to get into scoring that each and every day. and i don't want to get into a back and forth. i'm not going to get into envoys and things like that. i'm not going to get into scheduling announcements. i'm not going to get into prejudging this. >> so what's he getting out of all that? all in all, how many times has he, the great robert gibbs, deployed the device of i'm not going to get into it? according to politico, 120 times and more. white house press secretary dodged over 120 questions with the 120-time mention of i'm not going to get into it. that's tonight's "big number." where do we come up with this stuff? coming up, how involved was karl rove in the firing of those eight u.s. attorneys during the bush administration? mr. rove says he did nothing wrong, but new information suggests he may have had a lot more to do with it than he's letting on. we'll get the latest on rove and what he was up to.

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here's what's happening. u.s. officials confirm that three americans have been taken into custody in iran after they reportedly crossed the border without permission while backpacking in northern iraq. the president thanked congress today for giving the cash for clunkers program a much-needed boost. congress passed legislation extending funding for that program that allows consumers to trade in their less fuel efficient cars to upgrade to more fuel efficient models. senator chris dodd announced today that he has been diagnosed with early-stage prostate cancer. dodd will undergo surgery during recess next month. he says he feels fine and plans

to seek re-election next year. cautious optimism about today's gdp report led to a mixed close on wall street. the dow jones industrials added 17 points. the s&p 500 up a fraction. the nasdaq down almost 6 points. a quick programming note, president obama's national economic council director, larry summers, will be on "meet the press" this sunday. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." karl rove gave closed door testimony to the house judiciary committee regarding his role in the firing of those federal prosecutors back in 2006. and some e-mails shed light on his role in the firings. "newsweek's" michael isikoff is an msnbc contributor and mother jones magazines david corn also writes for politicsdaily.com. together they rote "hubris." i'm sure you can get it

somewhere. >> it's in paperback. >> remainder. i'm just teasing. it's a hell of a book. you guys did all the work in one of my favorite, chain 93 and those guys didn't. telling us on the war, covering their tracks. perhaps more cover-up here. the last time we talked about karl rove, bush's brain so-called, he basically skated on the prosecutions in the scooter libby case involving valerie plame, soon to be a major film, but can he do this again? in other words, it's always the question, not the crime, it's the cover-up. as we all know. >> the short answer is yes. the trouble he got himself into during the valerie plame investigation, and it's useful to remember he had to testify five times before the grand jury and came very close to being indicted, patrick fitzgerald was looking very closely, was because he testified to things, then got contradicted by e-mails that were -- that fitzgerald got

ahold of. so then rove had to explain why he testified -- why he didn't testify accurately his first times before the grand jury. in this case, remember, he never testified last year or two years ago when the judiciary committees were holding hearings on this. he was -- you know, they claimed executive privilege, so there was no fixed testimony to which he could be contradicted to. he didn't finally give his account to both the special prosecutor and the house judiciary committee until after he had already seen the e-mails that were already out there. so the bottom line is it's very unlikely he is in any legal trouble. >> david, in the case where you have -- i know presidents are allowed to pick special prosecutors, u.s. prosecutors at their own discretion and their pleasure. they serve at their pleasure. i understand that. but i understand it's against the law to obstruct justice. >> right. >> if there's a prosecution in progress and it's seen that a

presidential aide or anyone else had a prosecutor yanked in the middle of a real prosecution in order to protect the defendant, that's a crime. >> if you could prove that, that would be obstruction of justice. i mean, the argument here in the case of the new mexican attorney one of the most famous of the nine, was that he wasn't -- >> david iglesias. >> david iglesias. was he wasn't doing the bidding of republicans in new mexico who wanted him to go after what they considered to be democratic voter fraud. so they got rid of him, supposedly get somebody in who would do political prosecutions. now, as far as i understand the law, that's not illegal. now, you may not -- >> it seems to me you would want a prosecutor to prosecute. >> but not trumped up charges. >> no, no. >> but if you do that, it's still unseemly. there's still a reason not to admit it to the public or before, you know, a congressional committee, and so -- but i think mike makes a good point in that karl rove managed not to have to give sworn testimony for over two years. so in that time things also

cooled down -- >> lets get back to the legal skulduggery. what he was able to do that skirted the law that avoided being prosecutable. did he or did he not have a buddy who worked for him that he got a job down there as special -- as u.s. attorney? >> tim griffin, yes. >> that's on the record did he that. bump a guy, a u.s. attorney who is doing his job, so he could get a crony a job. >> right. >> and look -- >> that's legal? >> well, yeah. i mean, it was not -- u.s. attorneys are political appointees. they could be replaced at the pleasure of the president for political reasons. they can't be replaced to obstruct an investigation. if the u.s. attorney wants -- if the president wants to have somebody who's a buddy of karl rove be replaced as u.s. attorney, there's no problem why he can't do it. it's been known for quite some time that rove wanted tim griffin in there. the new e-mail his lawyer showed "the new york times" and "washington post" make that case even stronger. the only legal issue here is not obstruction, it's whether

somebody made false statements. there was a letter that went out early on that said the department of justice did not know -- was not aware of karl rove playing any role in the replacement of bud cummings by tim griffin. that was false. it was admitted to some time ago. the new evidence makes it even stronger. >> the new evidence also indicates that indeed he was more involved than he has said in the past, which is another -- again, it's not a crime in washington to lie. we know that. if you tell the president of the united states, i'm not involved in this valerie plame leak and then they come out and say to the public and then it turns out you are, which is exactly what happened with karl rove, it's not prosecutable, but again it's wrong. and so karl rove now makes his living as a pundit, a so-called truth teller, his own truth. if it turns out this evidence indicates he's not a guy to be trusted, that should have some impact, too. >> what do we know now. as reporters you have written the best book on it, the role that rove and libby, the chief

of staff to the former vice president, all those guys, played in terms of the big role in american history. the tough way in which they prosecuted the war, made the case for the war and then punished those who brought it into question. >> that's the ultimate legacy of the entire bush crowd is the war in iraq and all the mistakes that were made. and misrepresentations -- >> it looks like we're finally going to be pulling out of there pretty soon. >> there's no question that rove was not an architect of the war itself. he was the political guy in the white house. he did play a very key and instrumental role in sort of shaping the spinning of the war and the spinning of the post-war aftermath in which they had to explain -- >> and the exploitation of 9/11. >> right, exactly. >> i mean, that was his big contribution. the exploitation of 9/11 for political purposes and how they used that in part to sell the war in iraq which led to a host -- >> what went wrong politically? why did the bush administration because of the way they led this country lead to the election of barack obama? i do believe these are connected. >> i think you're right.

>> i think there was a tremendous national reaction to rovism, to bushism, the whole connection of these guys. >> they wanted the war so badly they rigged the debate. if there had been an honest debate before the war, we don't know exactly what he has but we still think we should do something, however you want to put it, you could win or lose that debate. i think they feared they would lose that debate. by rigging the debate with bad evidence and saying there was no other possible course of action, which was not true either, and then dismissing the inspections and then saying we know this is going to take three weeks, it's going to cost no money. the whole way they rigged it led to a bad taste and showed the politics of karl rove really is not good in the long run. >> and that plus the fact that by 2004 when things really started to go south in iraq, they had to spin that and they had to downplay all the problems that the war was causing, the increased casualties, the mismanagement of occupation, because they had to get re-elected. that was rove's brief in 2004.

again, so by downplaying it, the problems festered, became worse, the public didn't realize -- >> you guys are my heroes. you do all the hard work of investigative reporting. thank you michael and david. the book is called "hubris" look for it in the box outside the bookstore. those are great places to buy books, by the way. it's another sarah palin scheduling snafu. you think this is crazy except there's a crazy pattern to this person. she sets up these big events, puts out the word she's going to go somewhere, and doesn't show up. is this what, simon says? what's the story here? she was going to go to the reagan library. we were saying that was her big event. apparently she now says i'm never going to the reagan library or whatever. but the big story is her poll numbers are crashing up there in snow country, up in alaska. "politics fix" coming up. we're going to talk sarah and the birthers. i think they're all connected.

coming up, should mainstream republicans such as they exist anymore be worried their party is being hijacked by the crazies, by the birthers, the wacky conspiracy theorists and mostly from the south? and by the way that's a big

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we're back. time for "the politics fix." michelle bernard is msnbc's political analyst, and jane newton-small is a washington correspondent for "time." thank you for joining us tonight. what do we make about the birthers thing? i have been accused of hitting this too hard. i'm stunned every time i look at these numbers that just came out this morning. they are stunning. most americans give this short

shrift. one in ten people think it's for real. and they haven't really thought it through, i don't think. but it's so heavily embedded among the republican party, a majority of whom either buy it or think there's something to it, and in the south, and this is very troubling. majority of people are either in the group that buy the fact he wasn't born here in the south or think they're not sure, they say. michelle, i wonder about the ethnic story here. >> i don't want to pick on people in the south because i don't know if it's that they are southern or just the fact that the republican party right now just seems to be a geographic party. but it's embarrassing. i don't understand it. i didn't think it could get any crazier after we had people continuing complaining that he was muslim despite the fact he kept saying i'm a christian. i have been watching all week for the last two weeks. we've seen his birth certificate, even the fact that anyone had to show it is an embarrassment and there are many republicans now who are saying, you know what? those are right wing conservatives. don't call me conservative. i'm a republican. there's a difference. >> roy blunt was asked by that

blogger the other day, standing in front of the capitol, and he still plays the game. i want you've got to get 10 or 11 members pushing for resolution on this thing. look at these numbers. this is not dreaming it. okay. obama is born in the united states. 93% of the northeast say, of course. they say he was born in the united states, end of story. 90% in the midwest, 87% in the west, 47% in the south. i mean, what's this about? what's wrong with this picture? you've got to go -- this has got to be strange. your thoughts. >> well, look, if this is just symptomatic of there's no strong leader for the republican party in washington, d.c. like when -- >> would strong leaders say these people are nuts? >> no, but when nancy pelosi was speaker before barack obama was elected, all these people from the left trying to say, impeach bush, impeach cheney, she was strong enough to say, no, i'm not going to let anyone introduce legislation, i'm not going to say anything about it, bam, no one's going to do it. in the house now, you just don't have guys who are strong enough

to say, no, don't introduce legislation that's embarrassing to the party, that 11 members are going to sign on to, and cause all kinds of problems in the party. >> i disagree. i think the republican party enjoys people are getting hopped up on the right. the more people are hopped up on the right, we have an election next year where very few people vote. minorities don't vote, young people don't vote. we know that, it's historical. if they can get older, white people to vote in the election next year and they're hopped up on this thing, a third of them are. look at these numbers. >> it's disturbing. >> a majority either in -- wasn't born here or i don't know if he was born here. that's the majority. if they can get their party hopped up on this right-wing crazy juice, they may be able to get the core of a mandate to beat the democrats next time. >> is it going to happen outside of the south? they'll turn around -- >> these are national numbers. >> i know but look where they're concentrated. >> i know they're concentrated here. let me go through these names. i think it's fascinating. these are members of congress.

marcia blackburn, john campbell of california, john colbertson of texas, bob green of virginia, randy nugamyer of texas, dan burton, isn't he the usual suspect, of indiana, john carter of texas, lewis gillmert of texas. kenny marchott of texas. all elected members of congress who want to see the birth certificate of the next president because they believe this guy snuck under the wire. >> you'll note that none of the leaders are on this. roy blunt is a former leader and also is running for governor of missouri. >> he's a member of the congress. >> he is a member of the congress but he's not in leadership anymore. he's running for governor of missouri, he's out of leadership. >> senator shelby was asked about it. he'll probably answer the question. their flacks go out and say -- they don't want to break -- they want a big tent that's big enough for the nut jobs. we'll be back with michelle bernard and jane newton-small with more of "the politics fix."

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we're back with michelle bernard and jane newton-small for more of "the politics fix." sarah palin. i con to argue part of the attraction of the republican party. compared to, say, mitt romney. she's interesting, she's glittering, she's got something to say. let me ask you since we haven't had you on the show lately, jane. has she got problems with the fact that her favorables are lower than her unfavorables up

in a part of country she says is typical, alaska? >> certainly. i mean, look. she's not had an easy couple of months. she hasn't had an easy time really since -- my god, since virtually the acceptance speech at the republican national convention. and she's got a lot of issues that she really isn't trying at this point -- she says she isn't really trying at this point to reach out to moderates, reach out to independents. what she really is looking for is to reach out to the base. with the base she still remains incredibly popular. >> these numbers, the fact that she went from -- well, something like 86 down to 46, something like that. >> i mean, when she was elected as governor of alaska she was elected more so on the backs of democrats than she was on the backs of republicans. because she'd taken on frank murkowski, republican governor, very corrupt and she'd done a lot of damage to republicans in her own party. almost everything she did in her first term -- first two years, excuse me, was on the backs of democratic support. not republican support. so that 86% approval rating was really a lot of democrats, a lot of independents, not a lot of