into harvard. if he doesn't arrest me ever again! >> gates also said he hoped that he and crowley would catch a red sox or a celtics game at some point. looks like sports can do a couple of guys good. every morning, as you know on this show, i welcome a fantastic guest co-host. today i'm pleased to have rolling stone contributing editor toure with me. >> good to see you. >> we are joking and laughing about sports when it comes to skip gates and jim crowley. >> it seems the powder has come out of the keg. the air out of the balloon that we can laugh and tell jokes. they are talking about maybe going to lunch together. it's interesting whether or not they go to a red sox or celtics game because the celtics have a proud history, the first black player in the nba and the red sox have a embarrassing history

the last one to take a black player. >> my gut says they will go to the celtics. >> but the red sox are the heart of new england. >> the patriots maybe. they didn't mention the patriots. let's broaden the conversation and bring in erin burnett. we have a key economic indicator coming out less than an hour from now. car companies at noon will release their july sales numbers. ford is already saying it reported first monthly sales gain in nearly two years. the company credits the cash for clunkers program for its revved up sales, but the popular program is now in jeopardy. >> if we don't get the $2 billion from the senate to match it up with what the house passed, we would have to suspend the program next week. >> nns's erin burnett joins me live now. good to see you. >> good to see you, carlos. >> how much optimism is there on wall street? we're north of 9,000 and feels like we're heading to 29,500.

do people feel like we've turned the corner? >> there is optimism on wall street. how much of is momentum and how much is real? the big question out there is even when you look at clash for clunkers. we're going to get growth right now thanks to the up and auto production but how much of that will last? that is the debate in the market as to whether or not we go up or not. right now,er higher and bullish tone on wall street. the question can we get above 1,000 for the s&p 500. everybody is watching the senate to see if we get the approval for cash for clunkers. >> a couple of interesting articles the last week about high-speed trades, a lot of the people who are professional traders on wall street using super powerful computers to trade stocks and some say that we're setting ourselves up for another crisis where things go

awry thanks to meese computers this time. is there any of that concern on wall street you're hearing that the super fast computers being used for trades are going to create havoc down the road some. >> you know, look. people are saying if -- if he is hearing that, i'm sure some people saying that. frankly what would distinguish whether this is a problem just in terms of laws would be whether they are using this information that they get on these fast computers to go ahead and, quote/unquote, front run or trade ahead of their own clients is where potentially something could be illegal. other than, that getting that information, the couple of milliseconds you get ahead of the market would not be something classified as illegal. to the point, that may mean there is an issue. you look at volumes of stocks traded on the exchange, it is incredible. most comes from the big computer programs. i think jury is out on the significance of it but the risk it's not a small part of the

market, it's a big part of the market. >> erin, thanks for joining us. house of representatives is in recess and republicans are planning to spend the summer break putting the heat on democrats. now, according to one gop leadership aide, the party strategy on health care is simple. quote. republicans congressman from new york, peter king, joins me now. good to see you. >> good to see you. >> that's pretty tough language. is there a sense among your fellow republicans that momentum has swung in their favor? if so, what does that mean from a policy perspective? >> yeah. i think it's pretty clear over the last month, momentum has swung in our favor. but, you know, we have to avoid too much humor and avoid i believe going for the kill. what we have to do is make our case, try to make it ineffectively that the president has overreached, that he is

attempting to totally reform or change the health care system without really an idea of where he wants to take it. i mean, four or five different proposals out there and, you know, this is not a major issue among the american people. the last poll showed 14% see health care reform as being a major issue. yet, this could have a real impact on the american people. so that's why they feel -- i think this is a metaphor for the president going too far, too fast and not lived up to his campaign promises of governing from the center. but we have to avoid acting as if we've won this battle. right now, the voters are turning somewhat against barack obama. it doesn't mean they're coming toward us. we have to play this, i believe, effectively but not going for the kill. we're just laying out our plan and why we think the president is congress. >> let me push you on, though. . what you said is provocative to say the least. the polls i've seen say that north of 60% of the voters think this is an important issue that needs to be addressed.

infects no less than a conservative stallworth from utah says republicans among others will pay the price at the ballot box if there isn't major health care reform. he disagrees with the president what it should look like but saying it's a must. are you saying this is not a critical issue and major health care legislation doesn't need to get passed this fall? >> what aim saying when you ask the american people what the most important issues to them health care reform does not rank high. if you ask americans do they want health care reform they say yes. when you talk about what it means, it's not what i believe president obama wants. i think approximately maybe 10 million to 15 million people who are not going to have health insurance under any circumstances. we should be focused on them. we should also be looking at issues like affordability where you can take your insurance from one company to another, where we would give subsidies to those who can't afford it and allow small businesses to get better rates on their insurance

policies but not this overall government plan. i still believe we have the best health care system in the world. we can adjust it or modify it but not radically change it the way the president wants to. >> i want to switch subjects on you. several weeks ago you posted a youtube video. i want to run that for you and get your reaction to it. >> all we hear about is michael jackson and let's knock out this. this guy was a child molester and pedophile and to be giving this much coverage to him day in and day out, what does it say about our country? i think political correct no one wants to end up saying we need michael jackson. >> congressman, any regrets on your part those were inaccurate or temp rat words? >> no i stand by everything he said. i believe most of the american people believe with me. michael jackson was a magni magnificent artist. having that said the nine to ten

days treating this as this was a world war iii type of event, every time you turn on the television breaking news on michael jackson and ignoring the fact he brought young boys into his bed he is a person who led very distorted lifestyle and, to me, our values have gone totally out of whack and i thought it was important to say. nobody else was saying it. i said it and i stand by it. what really surprised me is some people tried to make it a racial issue which it was the furthest thing from my mind was considering this a racial interest. i wouldn't care what color michael jackson was or, you know, this was clearly to me a person who had a very distorted, per dr verted lifestyle and he was being glorified and it made no sense. >> i want to bring in tour, my guest co-host. >> you call him a pedophile and strange person but he was acquitted in a court of law and settled a couple of cases but a settlement not an admission of guilt. for you as a lawmaker to call him a pedophile when he was

acquitted is actually slander s slanderous. why do you take that step? how does it help the people of long island for you to be railing on tv about michael jackson and how does it help your senatorial campaign when most new york city people are huge fans of michael jackson. >> no. first of all, i think the great majority of people would agree with me. if they don't, they don't. certainly my experience i've had is people agree with me. if you're an entertainer and you're on television, you talk about how you bring young boys into your bed to sleep with you, to me, that is pedophilia. we can have different definitions of it. the average american, average person if they hear an adult male is enticing young boys to spend the night with him in bed i think that is as close to pedophilia and to be not exhalted. >> a separate point. >> no, it's not. no, no, it's not slanderous.

he admitted he took young boys to bed. to me, that is close enough to the mark to say that that is pedophilia. that is something -- i mean, that is perverted. >> with all due respect that is a slippery slope for to say that it's close enough. if he said that he had young boys in bed, that's very -- that's a very slippery slope for you to, all of a sudden, turn that into pedophilia and say -- >> no, no. that is close to the mark. that's what you said, how does the average person feel? you go out in the street and say to someone, hey, this guy as an adult put young boys in bed with him. do you consider him a pedophile? 99% of the people would say yes. >> but the average person on the street is not a lawmaker is the difference we're talking about here. >> but make a -- what is that? >> i wonder how deep does this go for you? elvis married somebody under age. one of the rolling stones married somebody under the age

and marvin gaye slept with somebody under age. >> i said that michael jackson led a perverted lifestyle ignored by the media and i will stand by that and say anyone who goes on television and talks how he wants young boys in bed with them that is a horrible, horrible example and i will stand by what i said and say that is pedophilia. whether or not a court can prove that particular case, he is still a pedophile. would you let your child be in same room alone with michael jackson overnight? i don't think so. >> you're saying the justice system failed in that case? >> certainly it did like o.j. simpson was acquitted. i don't think anybody thinks o.j. simpson wasn't guilty of murder. in one sentence he was acquitted but if o.j. went on television and said he brought women into his room and he had carving knives then i would say he is a murderer. in this case with michael jackson i stand by what i say and i think common sense is my side on this.

>> congressman king, appreciate you joining us. >> carlos, great. thank you very much. >> do you agree with congressman king? let us hear your take. send me your tweets. find my picture there and click it and let me know what you think and we'll read some of the answers later in the show. promises, promises. is president obama about to break a big one and, if so, will he be able to survive the political backlash? we'll talk about that straight ahead. you're watching msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. >> i can make a firm pledge under my plan. no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes. >> read my lips! no more taxes. tools are uncomplicated?

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welcome back to msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. today, president obama is marking implementation of the post-9/11 gi bill with a speech at george mason university. nbc political director and white house correspondent chuck todd joins us now. what did you make, chuck, of the interviews this weekend on the sunday shows? treasury secretary tim geithner, larry summers, christine yeah romer all seem to be walking an interesting fine line there talking about the economy. >> well, they had a couple of challenges. one, first, you had secretary geithner asked a hypothetical about tax increases for the middle class and deficit and all of this stuff. he seemed to do what frankly any economist would do is you never say never on anything just like

a foreign policy adviser is asked about military intervention with north korea and iran, you never take an option off the table for fear of looking like a flip-flopper down the road. so i think the administration is a little concerned that got such wide pickup when it was an answer to a hypothetical but you're right on the other challenge, which we've talked about, i think, quite a bit which is not only the first was the administration trying to sell the stimulus and trying to remind people they really believe it will work, give it time, give it time, give it time. but the next great thing goes to the cover of "newsweek" last week when he said the recession is over, which basically all of these economists from the administration all a but agreed with, never said it because technically we are still in a recession but it feels like the numbers, look at it, we may have hit bottom but the recovery is not going to feel good to a lot of people. so selling the new normal as some have called it, the fact that you're not going to see your house go up in value 10%

every month and not see the gigantic bonuses and raises even among upper middle class families, that businesses aren't working the same way they did over the last ten years, that new normal is going to be the next difficulty for this administration. >> chuck, how bogged down -- i hate to use that phrase, but i'm not sure what other phrase to use appropriately here. how bogged down has the obama administration become in the health care battle? i know it's a prime of to be objective but are they not able to move other parts of their agenda forward? >> i don't know if it's that. i think in many ways they are still pushing massive regulatory rear form which is huge and it's a big fight, a fight that the public won't read a lot about, but a huge fight between the fed, treasury, who is going to be regulating what, so there is going to be that in the fall. but health care -- look. it's an engaged political fight whether you want to call it bogged down or what, it doesn't

matter. they have to finish the fight and cannot walk away without something. >> chuck, thank you so much. we are now listening for a moment to president obama speaking at george mason university, celebrating the first 9/11 gi bill. let's listen to what the president has to say. >> a very tough bill done and part of the reason they were able to get it done is because of their extraordinary personal credibility. these are what one is new to the senate and one had been there a while and, yet, together, they formed an incredibly formidable team and they are both class acts. please give a big round -- >> we want to bring back chuck todd for a moment. chuck, we're starting to hear a little bit about the 2010 elections, even at this early point, and you wrote and your team wrote about a notion that republicans may start become optimistic about 2010, they make up some seats in the house inspect. is that right? are republicans feeling a little

mo joe? >> history and imagine suggests they would be politically inept if they couldn't figure up to pick up some seats. democrats on the house side have won every seat left for them to win. yes, you could make an argument for a dozen more under the right circumstances they will be competitive and do very well and they might argue even as many as 36 republican incumbents that they could potentially target. but there are nearly 50 democrats sitting in districts john mccain carry and, remember, that means there's another dozen or so in districts that the president barely carried. so it's a big competitive field. house republicans are talking about 80 democratic seats that they can target. the question now, carlos, the real way to judge how this mojo is working is the next three to six months is the last push for them to candidate recruit. this is how in 1993 at this point in time, you had an idea the republicans had a shot at

this thing because of all of their success in recruiting. we'll find out in six months. >> chuck todd at the white house, thank you so much. now let's listen in to president obama speaking at george mason university. >> education. obviously, i'm honored to be here and to renew our commitment to ensure that the men and women who wear the uniform of the united states of america get the opportunities that they have earned. i was a proud cosponsor of the post-9/11 gi bill as senator. i'm commit to working with secretary shinseki to see that it is administered as president. we do this not just to meet our moral obligation to those who sacrifice greatly on our behalf and on bhach of the country. we do it because these men and women must now be prepared to lead our nation in the peaceful pursuit of economic leadership in the 21st century. this generation of service men

and women has already earned a place of honor in american history. each of them signed up to serve. many after they knew that they would be sent into harm's way. over the last eight years, they have endured tour after tour of duty in dangerous and distant places. they've experienced grueling combat from the streets of fallujah to the harsh terrain of helmand province. they've adapted to complex insurgencies, protected local populations and trained foreign security forces. by any measure they are the author of military chapters of military service in the history of our nation and i don't make that statement lightly. for we know that anyone who puts on the uniform joins an unbroken life of selfless patriots that stretches back to lexington.

the freedom and prosperity that we enjoy would not exist without the service of generations of americans who are willing to bear the heaviest and most dangerous burden. but we also know this. the contributions that our servicemen and women can make to this nation do not end when they take off that uniform. we owe a debt to all who serve and when we repay that debt to those bravest americans among us, then we are investing in our future. not just their future, but also the future of our own country. now, this was the lesson that america was sometimes too slow to learn. after the civil war and world war i we saw far too many veterans who were denied the chance to live their dreams. men who were unable to find in peace the hope they had fought for in war. and fdr knew this.

in 1943, before the beaches of normandy were stormed and the treacherous terrain of hee woe gee ma was taken, he told the nations that the veterans of world war ii would be treated dimple. he said that they must not be demobilized and i quote, to a place on a bread line, demobilized to a place on a bread line or on a corner selling apples. instead, roosevelt said the american people will insist on fulfilling this american obligation to the men and women in the armed forces who are winning this war for us. that is precisely what the american people did. the gi bill was approved just weeks after d-day and carried with it a simple promise to all who had served. you pick the school, we'll help pick up the bill. and what followed was not simply an opportunity for our veterans, it was a transformation for our country.

by 1947, half of all americans enrolled in college were veterans. ultimately, this would lead to three presidents, three supreme court justices, 14 nobel prize winners and two dozen pulitzer prize winners. more importantly, it produced hundreds of thousands of scientists and engineers, doctors and nurses. the backbone of the largest middle class in history. all told, nearly 8 million americans were educated under the original gi bill, including my grandfather. no number can sum up this sea change in our society. reginald wilson a fighter pilot from detroit, said, i didn't know anyone who went to college. i never would have gone to college had it not been for the gi bill. h.g. jones, a navy man from north carolina, said, what happened in my rural casswell

county community happened all over the country, going to college was no longer a novelty. indeed, one of the men who went to college on the gi bill as i mentioned was my grandfather and i would not be standing here today if that can you not had not let him in search of opportunity. >> we've been listening to president obama speaking at george mason university about a new gi bill. we will break away from that now republican coming up next the man who could hold the fate of the republican party in his own hands but he has to escape the showdown about to explode in the showdown state. who will win the millions over jackson's millions but is there anything left to fight for? for more on the topics we're discussing check out carloswatson.msnbc.com. we'll be back in a moment. you're watching msnbc live. "mor has the fastest hands boxing has ever seen. so i've come to this ring to see who's faster...

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welcome back to "morning msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. ear the top three stories we are following. obama administration is considering transferring some guantanamo bay detainees to u.s. facilities equipped to hold them. those convicted could serve time in the maximum facility. automotive industry set to release july sales numbers. ford expected to release numbers at the top of the hour. the company says it will report first monthly gain in nearly two years thanks in no small part to the cash for clunkers program. a simpson bond hearing. he is in prison awaiting ab an appeal on his conviction. this week the senate vote on the supreme court nominee sotomayor. jon cornyn of texas now joins us

to discuss it. good to see you, sir. >> thank you, carlos. >> senator cornyn, some expected you might support sotomayor but you've come out fairly strongly against her. how much flak have you been taking from folks in your state who feel you, as a former judge and former attorney general, haven't given her fair due? >> well, it was really my goal to make sure that the judge had an opportunity in her hearing to express her views fully and fairly and i asked her that question, do you feel like you've had a chance for a fair hearing and express your views and she said, yes. the problem, carlos, had to do really with my concerns about her judicial philosophy. she has written that there is no such thing as neutrality and objectivity in the law and we know that in some troubling areas like the second amendment, private property rights and equal protection, particularly with her ruling on the new haven firefighter case, that a number of her most important rulings have really been outside of the

mainstream. so it's with some regret that i won't be able to support her nomination. >> judge, i'm about to call you judge which was your old title. senator cornyn, let me take you back home to texas where an interesting political battle is brewing. a republican intramural fight. the senior u.s. attorney from texas kay bailey hutchinson is going to resign her seat and run against rick perry, the incumbent governor, for that seat. have you taken sides in this and how worried are you as someone in charge of republicans running for the senate next year, that you guys could end up losing that seat in texas to a democrat? >> well, that's my most -- the most important concern i have is about what happens in that special election which it looks like it may be in may 2010. no, i'm not going to take sides in the gubernatorial primary. both of these people are great public servants and friends of mine. but this is a open special

election which last time texas had something like this, texas was a blue state in 1961 and john tower, a republican, was able to win under the circumstances. so as head of the national republican senatorial commit yen and somebody worried about our diminished numbers here i want to make sure that doesn't happen next year. >> you had a example when lloyd bentsen stepped down from that seat. you do have a history where the seats can flip. let me ask you about the economy in texas and elsewhere. we saw the cover of "newsweek" and a lot are suggesting we've had bottom and beginning to turn a corner in the economy. is that your position as someone who sits on the budget an finance committees? >> i hope that's true. we're starting to see the stock market pick up. the problem is unemployment is going to keep getting worse. i think we'll see unemployment go up over 10% nationally and,

of course, that's two points above what the president said we would get if we just passed this stimulus plan. so they've got some explaining to do there and, frankly, i think all this borrowed money and this reckless spending has made things worse, rather than better. >> senator cornyn, i keep wanting you to call you judge cornyn for some reason. i know you deserved as a district court judge and on the texas supreme court. got to let that go. pleasure to have you today. thank you for joining us. >> thanks, carlos. today a judge takes up questions surrounding michael jack son's estate and family issues. msnbc courtney hazlett joins us live to talk about that. courtney, i'm hearing that different stories, that, infects michael jackson may not have had 4 million or 500 million but his fortune may have been significantly less. is that one of the issues talked about today? >> well, you touched on a really great point, carlos. his estate is worth $5 hundred million but the value right now is only about a hundred million

and financial restructuring it looks like you could bump it up to 200 million and goes back to wa we've been talking about all along he had a lot of things that were worth money but in terms of how liquid he is a totally different story. another interesting point we just learned from inside the courtroom, proceedings haven't begun yet but hearing a lot from the public information officer. aeg, the folks who were behind the concert series, they filed court documents this morning. haven't found out exactly what they contain, but we do know they have to do with aeg being looped into some of the financial decisions as well. so just another player now added into this entire thing. >> courtney, this is toure. how are you doing? >> hey there. >> you talk about michael jock -- jackson not having liquidity but we know he is worth 500, 600 million. isn't that going to get his mother and his children past whatever problems coming up? >> it all depend on when they get the money.

it's a very good point. part of the reason we've been hearing katherine jackson arguing to be named one of the administrators of the will because in california if you're an administrator of a will, you can collect a fee between 2% and 4% of the assets of the estate. that means before you pay back any of the liability and debts and things like that you can collect this fee so it's money that comes in immediately. the 5.5 million dollars that was uncovered is money comes into the door immediately. the auto biography released in october is quick cash, too. if you're katherine jackson and you only get 40% you're allotted it takes a long time for that cash to actually get to you and as we all know, michael was supporting the family day-to-day. they need the money now. >> courtney hazlett in los angeles, thank you so much. straight ahead, combating soldier suicide. why are so many men and women in uniform taking such drastic measures? and is the army and we as a nation doing enough to help america's bravest? it's an exploding scandal and it hit the cover of "the new york times" yesterday.

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welcome back to msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. the number of suicides in the army has risen to the highest level since recordkeeping began 30 years ago. in fact, from january to mid july of this year 129 suicide were confirmed or suspected. that's more than the number of american soldiers who died in combat during the very same period. erika good is the environment editor for "the new york times" and broke the story on its front page yesterday. good to see you. >> hi, carlos. good to be here. >> what are the things that frighten me about this story and the very personal stories you write about here. you talk about one north carolina group of soldiers who overseas 175 of them and 4 have already committed suicide. one of the things that scared me about the numbers, you say the numbers possibly don't count all

of the soldiers who have committed suicide. some of the veterans and others. is that right? >> that's right. the army tracks suicides among active duty personnel and also among reserve soldiers who are not on active duty. but the army, once you've left the army, you're not taught by the army. the v.a. can really only reliably track suicides among veterans who are in their hospitals and who seek their services, and then there are all the people out there who, you know, never go to the v.a. for help and there is no nationwide centralized system for tracking suicides among military veterans. >> unbelievable. erica, i want to bring in toure, my cohest, we were speaking on the money yesterday. he is the one who brought your story to my attention. toure, please. >> is there something particular about this iraq conflict, this iraq war that is making so many

men and women take their lives versus other wars we've had in the past? >> toure i think it's a question that comes up and i think a lot of people wonder that. it's a very difficult question to answer because the army only started tracking suicides in 1980, so after the vietnam war, for example, there were certainly rumors that there were huge numbers of suicides, there was testimony before a congressional hearing in the late 1980s that suggested it was a lot lower than people had speculated. but, you know, really no one knows what the toll of suicide among veterans of previous wars has really been and some of the overall suicide numbers now along veterans do include vietnam veterans who now older and some of them are still becoming extremely depressed and taking their own lives, sadly. >> in your story, you talk about that mental health screeners for

the army are letting people through who they are not -- who they are concerned about, because the army is so desperate to bring in more soldiers. so is it something that some of the wrong people or some depressed people are going into the conflict, or something that is happening there and they don't get proper support when they come back home? >> i think it is -- you know, certainly the young man that i focus the story on and a couple of the other people in this company that was the case. i don't know how generally that's the case as far as the screening issue goes. but certainly it's all of these things. one of the things that's very clear is that we don't know enough about what is happening in these cases. the army is launching this five-year study with outside researchers who are going to look over time, look really closely into the lives of soldiers who have committed suicide, and that may answer

some questions. but suicide is never caused by one thing. it's always a perfect storm. you know? it's a lot of things coming together in the soldier's live, in the veteran's life. >> thank you for joining us and thank you for your coverage on this story. >> thank you, carlos. breaking news. msnbc is following at least ten people are reported injured at a new bedford, massachusetts, recycling plant. you can see the pictures there. reports are this is a chemical type of situation there. now, this shot is courtesy of whdh in boston. we'll bring you more details as it becomes available. again, a chemical plant in new bedford, massachusetts, reportedly continue people injured and could be severely. we'll know know. we're going take a quick break. when we come up next, the taxman cometh for the rich and famous who thought they were simply above the law when it comes to stop paying uncle sam. the explosive investigation at wrge wrge widens and more of that straight ahead.

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welcome back to "msnbc live." i'm carlos watson. now, tens of thousands of americans hiding money overseas may be about to pull a get out of jail free card. that's right. swiss bank ubs will reportedly hand over the names of 5,000 americans stashing their cash in switzerland. not the 52,000 names washington wants. the big question now, will we with find out the names of those 5,000 tax cheats? with me now to discuss it is "wall street journal" tax columnist, laura saunders, one of the people who's been following the story closely. laura, good to see you again. >> good to be here. thank you. >> tell me what's going on in your mind? is this another case of tax cheats or something more significant? >> i think this could be the tip of a very large iceberg. there has been some kind of agreement between the swiss bank, ubs, and the government to turn over a lot of names.

>> and that's a big deal, because the swiss have repeatedly said, put your money over, because we'll never give up who's stashing their money. >> they say, we never, ever turn over names, unless you've done something really crooked, so now they'll have to adjust their definitions a little bit and turn over some of those names. one of my sources said they think the government will get all the names it wants, eventually. >> and so then, what happened from here? are you saying that lawyers, doctors, dentists, athletes, entrepreneurs, others could be prosecuted? >> yes. we have never seen so many u.s. taxpayers potentially subject to criminal tax prosecution on one issue before. >> this is the biggest instance of this ever? >> i think so. as far as i can tell, it is. and i think that it's the tip of a very large iceberg and that the irs is going to go after it and after it and after it some more. >> and we'll see several rich and famous people, sort of hauled into court or hauled into jail for this? >> we'll see. i don't know. we've seen three already. you know, people with $8

million, $9 million who had -- in swiss banks who have pled guilty. one of them paid a $45,000 bribe to find out if his name was on the list of names to be turned over. >> and it was. >> well, i don't know quite how that worked, but he wound up pleading guilty in federal court. >> so what about those folks who are inevitably going to say, hey, look, i was just following the advice of my tax adviser. my tax adviser told me, my accountant said, do this, and that's what i did. you know you're going to hear that. >> well, your mother once said to you, if somebody told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it. this is pretty bad advice to follow, frankly. >> you think it's pretty black and white? >> almost more black and white than any other issue i've seen in taxes. >> but rich people have all these different outlets they can go to, if it's not the swiss, the caymans, here, there. isn't this just normal business for rich people? >> well, i think the irs, and the congress, want to make sure that it's not. that tax evasion is not okay.

>> so where do we go to from here? is there an opportunity that congress could reach back, because enough people could be complicated, enough wealthy and connected people, and congress somehow provides some version of amnesty? >> well, there is a little bit of an amnesty for some people. but the irs, every person who walks in and asks for amnesty, the irs looks at them first as a criminal, and then has to decide if they can go on to the amnesty. and it's not a real amnesty, is a very, very expensive clemency program. you might owe $300,000 on a $1 million account. >> so where do we go next? what do we watch for? >> we look and see what the details of the agreement are and watch and see what the irs does next. >> and again, this is just one bank that we're talking about. there are many more. >> there are many banks in switzerland, many tax havens, there are banks and brokers in the united states. >> we'll leave it there. laura saunders, thanks so much. as always, i'll turn to my daily big thought, my "c" note.

there were plenty of stories this week about how democrats have lost their way on health care, president obama may be in trouble. we've seen lots of polls that suggest that. while all that may be true, and in fact, august could be the place and which there are a variety of winds blown, i think the reality is, it may not be the town halls, may not be the debates, may not be the new ads that ultimately shift the winds of change here. in fact, it may actually be a very real, very human, very personal story. we've seen that. whether it's been cindy sheehan on the iraq war, whether it's been terry schiavo on end of life, or even more recently in the case of the young iranian woman, neda soltan, sometimes it's a heart wrenching story, a very personal story of someone's struggles that bring a larger policy issue alive. that's what i suggest we end up looking for. is there a personalized story on h health care that we may not be able to predict that ultimately turns the winds on this one. that's what i'm watching for. hope you enjoyed the show. want to thank toure, my guest

cohost tonight. before we go, we got an update on breaking news. that news out of new bedford, massachusetts. authorities are saying in new bedford, about a dozen people have been exposed to an unknown gas at a city trash hauling company and ten have reportedly been taken to the hospital with respiratory issues. it's not known whether those conditions they were exposed to and the cause of the gas leak remains under investigation. we'll bring you more details as it becomes available. in fact, we'll hand it all right now over to dr. nancy snyderman, who's got more on this and a number of other things today. nancy, what are you following today? >> hi, carlos. obviously, we'll keep our eyes on that problem in new bedford, but we're also going to talk to howard dean this hour, about the health care battle on capitol hill. and there's a big hearing going on in california about the custody of michael jackson's children and who will control the money. plus, do we really need this? a doll that allows little girls to pretend to breast-feed? it comes complete with props and even suckling noises. it's approaching noon on the

east coast and that means the doctor is in. hey smart, heard you're getting free nights from hotels.com. - how? - well, funny you should ask. say i stay 5 nights on business, then 5 nights on a family vacay, boom. free night welcomerewards. smart. so smart.

having to go in the middle of traffic and just starting and stopping. having to go in the middle of a ballgame and then not being able to go once i got there. and going at night. i thought i had a going problem. my doctor said i had a growing problem. it wasn't my bladder. my prostate was growing. i had an enlarging prostate that was causing my urinary symptoms. my doctor prescribed avodart. (announcer) over time, avodart actually shrinks the prostate and improves urinary symptoms. so i can go more easily when i need to go and go less often. (announcer) odart is for men only. women should not take or handle avodart due to risk of a specific birth defect. do not donate blood until 6 months after stopping avodart. tell your doctor if you have liver disease. rarely sexual side effects, swelling or tenderness of the breasts can occur. only your health care provider can tell if symptoms are from an enlarged prostate and not a more serious condition like prostate cancer. so have regular exams. call your doctor today.

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coming up today on "dr. nancy," there's a big hearing taking place right now in a california courtroom over michael jackson's kids, as well as who will control his fortune. and while that's going on, i'll take you inside an operating room for a real-life demonstration of the powerful sedative propofol. that's the drug that's at the center of the investigation into the singer's death. and is president obama ready to tax the middle class in order to pay for health care reform? i'm going to talk about that and more with physician and former head of the democratic national committee, howard dean. plus this. [ baby crying ] [ sucking sounds ] >> a new doll that allows little girls to breast-feed. it comes complete with fake nipples for the child to wear.

and a religious leader suggests that facebook is leading teens to suicide. we'll take a look at that controversial comment. hi, everyone. i'm dr. nancy snyderman. we'll have more on those stories coming up. but first, let's head over now to monica novotny who's at the news desk with a hearing going on right now in the michael jackson case. good morning -- or i should say, good afternoon, monica. >> nancy, good to see you. this is one of the big stories we're following today. it's the hearing taking place right now in los angeles to deal with michael jackson's estate and of course, custody of his three children. now, there are huge crowds outside the courthouse. lots of camera crews, as you'd expect. jackson's mother, katherine jackson and sister, la toya, entered the courthouse a short time ago. now, debbie rowe, the mother of jackson's two older children, she's not expected to attend. the superior court judge will be deciding a number of issues today. and nbc's jeff rossen is outside of the courthouse. jeff, what can we expect today? >> reporter: yeah, we can expect a few things. one of the things they're going to be tackling is, of course,

the all-important custody deal. what will happen to michael's three children? as you know, there's been a lot of back and forth between debbie rowe, the biological mother of the oldest two and katherine jackson, the jackson family. they reached that custody deal last week and it is up for approval today with the judge. that could get pushed right through. the judge could also, you know, want to investigate more and extend it by about 30 days. there are a lot of possibilities. the going thinking is he'll probably just push it right through. the other thing they're going to look for today is a family allowance for katherine. as you know, katherine jackson, as we have reported here on msnbc and nbc news, has been asking for more money to take care of the children. her whole argument is, look, michael jackson was our sole bread winner, basically, the family lives off him and all his earnings. now that he's gone, so's the cash. we need more money to care for these children. the other thing they're going to look for is the bigow