explain the need for reform. white house advisers say they believe it is showing extreme views from the other side. certainly not all people who have the opposing view of the president are doing this by any stretch, but they believe it shows extreme views out there. they believe that this could potentially help them. it will be interesting to see as the meetings are going forward over the next three weeks, the big obama organization, the organizing for america group is also going to be holding meetings and things so of course, they don't want to have any stories of people getting hurt or things, but as a messaging point of view, the white house is not at least some in is white house are not that displeased by some of these mob scenes. >> jeff, it's interesting. there are also different views within the u.s. senate. i talked yesterday to kent conrad of north dakota, chuck

schumer of new york. they had somewhat different views on how important this was. let's take a listen. >> so august, in your view, is not the month when health care dies? >> well, i hope not, but you can see what's going on. there are groups that are out agitating, trying to disrupt public meetings with specific strategies they have put on the internet on how to disrupt meetings. shouting, yelling. people in different parts of the room with a very orchestrated script on how to disrupt public meetings. i mean, is that what we've come to in the united states, people functioning as thugs in meetings, shouting people down? >> i was at a street fair saturday. i could tell the people who were really concerned than those trying to spread false information. that's politics.

>> jeff, let me ask you, from the democratic side, you mentioned that the pro-obama organizers are out there. labor unions who are very passionate about this issue. does the white house feel they need to restrain people on their side? >> this was definitely one point of discussion. yesterday, there was a meeting on capitol hill. they basically went through some helpful hints if you will for democratic senators, what they should do. they're not telling them to not hold town meetings and things, but you know, are hopeful that you know, these meetings will be substantive and kept on the issues. i think there is sort of a red state, blue state. senator conrad, when he goes home, if he hears a lot of these

groups and a lot of people who are opposed to health care reform, it may have some type of an effect. the white house is worried about this ending the month of august, where all that has been discussed are these disruptive things. they're hoping it's not on television every day and they can actually get something accomplished at some of these meetings. >> does the white house want the left to pipe down in terms of their attacks on some of those red-state democrats, people like kent conrad who are negotiating with the republicans? do they feel that's constructive, those ads against the sent ris democrats? >> no, they do not. both senators have expressed their displeasure with the white house as these outside groups are running these ads. the white house is, and through

their own organization, is doing more positive things, trying to encourage them to come along. they disagree with these other groups applying more pressure. they think it's stirring some of this up. >> interesting to see how both sides are going to try to modulate that temperature over the next few weeks. thanks for joining us. >> thank you. the question is, whether a health care bill will get done and when. i talked to chuck schumer about the issue. let's take a listen. >> i think the realistic time is mid-september because they've been at it for three, four months. if they can't do it by september 15th, i think the view on the democratic side is going to be they're never going to get it done. there's always a worry that delay, delay, delay. you lose any momentum

whatsoever. i think any artificial deadlines are just unwise. the most important thing we can do is to get this right. i've got a friend who was in the marines stopped me the other day and said, in the marines, we've got a saying. time sent on recognizance is really wasted. that's really what we've been doing. i say to my colleagues, i understand. if we get those closer to being right, deal with this in a way that's more acceptable, that will make what follows easier. >> do you see anything in that agreement so far that rank in file democrats cannot support? >> we don't know the details. for instance, i've been very much involved in the public option. if you call it a co-op, but meets certain criteria, has the strength to go up against the

big insurance companies and the big suppliers, bring down prices, fine. if it's going to be a measly little thing that's just a fig leaf, not fine. >> then you have the question of whether the democrats are willing to shoulder the burden themselves, alone, for a massive change in 1/6 of the economy. are they? >> i think we are. as president obama has said, we prefer a bipartisan plan. we're willing to make concessionings. it's not the ideal thing chuck schumer, max baucus would want, but there's a limit and it's better to do something that we think will solve the problem rather than come up with a bipartisan agreement for bipartisan sake. the proof in the pudding for this is not going to be who votes for it. do you have republicans or not. >> so if there are zero republican votes, you're

confident you can get 50 plus one democrats? >> yes. we're still figuring out how reconciliation works and it's not that easy. again, the preference would be to do bipartisan, but it's certainly a possibility. >> you've said you don't believe a public option can pass the senate. senator schumer said he doesn't think you're right. that you may be able to get the votes. are you guys counting votes differently? >> perhaps we are. >> but let's do the math. you've got to have 60 votes to pass health care. you take away kennedy and byrd and two democrats who oppose. that's still 55 votes. reconciliation, that's a majority. >> be careful what one wishes for. the way reconciliation works is quite a bit different than many people know. the upshot of it all is the parliament told us if you try to

write reconciliation, you'll will left with swiss cheese. there's another important part of this. under the rules of reconciliation, everything would have to be deficit neutral over five years. under the budget resolution, you have ten years. that makes a dramatic difference. and under reconciliation, it all has to be deficit neutral every year after the five years. that makes trying to cover virtually everybody in the country almost impossible. >> you heard some of that split between the democratic left and split. nowhere more does it show up in the the plans to tax million-dollar incomes. schumer is open to it. conrad is weary to it. >> i wouldn't take anything off the table. i think it's really important to get a health care bill done and

so there are better ways and worse ways, but to draw a line in the sand right now on anything is unproductive in you believe in a bill. >> if we're going to bend the cost curve, the things we need to do are going to be in the health care sector. the cbo has said to us, yes, you can raise the revenue in that way. it does absolutely nothing to bend the cost curve. whatever you do on the spending or revenue side needs to affect health care expendture. >> here's even more welcome news. a committee investigating mortgage deals has cleared both democratic senators of breaking senate rules. in separate letters to each senator, the committee said it found no credible evidence that they broke the rules, but said they should have been more careful to avoid the appearance

of impropriety. the number of americans losing their jobs is down. numbers for july were less than expected. that's the first decline in more than a year. >> though we lost 247,000 jobs in july, that was nearly 200,000 fewer jobs than in june. and far fewer than the nearly 700,000 jobs a month that we were losing as the beginning of the year. >> and president obama took the opportunity in the rose garden to say his administration has pulled the economy back from the brink and cite those numbers as evidence. congress is about to start its summer recess, but should your elected officials be taking a break now? up next, randy coen en. and with more and more people out of work, there are

more and more people scamming people out of a job. 3... 2... 1. ever wonder how cheez-it bakes... so much real cheese in such small bites? ♪ baking complete! well, now you know. cheez-it. the big cheese. in 1972. ♪ more than thirty years later, not much has changed. ♪ gain. to smell it is to love it. what are you waiting for? mr. evans? this is janice from onstar. i have received an automatic signal

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progressive.nnouncer) "call or click today.s fastest 3g network" we are back on "the new york times special edition" and now, it's time for op edge, our weekly look at the sharpest columns "the new york times." paul krugman says we have good reason to be angry over the way wall street executives get paid -- next up, in the wake of bill

clinton's success at freeing two american reporters, nick says no one should count on the american public changing kim jong-il's dictator ship. he says -- and randy cohen takes on vacation time. he says -- randy joins me now. it feels to me like a cheap shot at congress to focus on their

vacation and i say that because i cover this place and most of those members of congress, when they go home, they're working all the time. parades, town meetings. it's not a week at the beach from my perspective. >> those parades, that's gruelling. i sympathize. but they do work hard, fisherman, the crews in meat plants. they don't get eight-week vacations. >> but i'm saying they're not vacations. >> well, they don't get time off, time away from the office. if congress is going to grant that to itself, surely other americans who work equally hard are entitled to it, too. >> you mentioned they get paid $174,000 a year. doctors, lawyers, many other professionals, even newspaper reporters who make $174,000 a

year. are you making the argument that we would have a better congress if we paid those people less and forced them to stay in washington? >> i'm making the hi pock rasy argument that if you're going to grant yourself all sorts of perks and privileges, you should ensure the same things for your constituents. the european union guarantees every worker four weeks off. there's no reason we can't to it. >> but randy, if american businesses are hurting, we've got companies including "the new york times," making people take furlough, unpaid time off. how in the world could the congress mandate that newspapers, television networks, any other businesses, give people more vacation than they're already taking? >> there's a congressman in florida who has a vacation bill he's developing.

he argues the contrary, that this would be a kind of economic stimulus. it would spread out the work, be an enormous health benefit. and would not have the adverse economic effects. >> interesting. i suspect it's not going to happen, but it's something to think about. thanks for being with us. >> thanks for having me. coming up, tape from the times and a year long chronicle of life at the california food bank. and the first lady of south carolina announces new living arrangements at the governor's mansion. it's about time. it seems like the world will never be the same. but there is a light beginning to shine again. the spark began where it always begins. at a restaurant downtown. in a shop on main street.

a factory around the corner. entrepreneurs like these are the most powerful force in the economy. they drive change and they'll relentless push their businesses to innovate and connect. as we look to the future, they'll be there ahead of us, lights on, showing us the way forward. this is just the beginning of the reinvention of business. and while we're sure we don't know all the answers, we do know one thing for certain, we want to help. come see what the beginninlooks like at openforum.com

everybody knows "the new york times" has all the news that's fit to print. here are some of the stories you shouldn't miss that week. the timely piece aimed at

protecting the jobless. there are more people out of work, that means more scams. this article details some common scams including bogus work at home scams. it offers these tips. be skeptical, keep things private and specialize your search. here's another piece that answers a question a lot of people have asked -- how does the "top chef" host stay so thin. she reveals she keeps two dress sizes on set for when the pounds pile on. and a very different beauty icon is the subject of one of the most e-mails stories this past week. it's a profile of lauren luke, internet ukrainian museum in the east village.

the single mother -- taped in her bedroom into the start of an empire. and now to tape from the times. video you'll only see on nytimes.com. she spent more than a year following families and individuals who work and visit the food bank in california. >> i can't afford the food at the grocery stores and this is extra food for me. hard times everywhere. got to make ends meet where ever you can. >> every 50 come new each week, im be at 600 families and there's just no way thattic do that. we have to turn away. i haven't had to do that in 15 years. >> recently, the nation's food banks received a $100 million

windfall of extra food as part of the stimulus law. see this video and more at video.newyorktimes.com. and next, how much of it is real outrage and manufactured. plus, bill clinton to the rescue in north korea. is he now the administration's secret weapon? mr. evans? this is janice from onstar. i have received an automatic signal you've beein a front-end crash. do you need help? yeah. i'll contact emergency services and stay with you. you okay? yeah. onstar. standard for one year on 14 chevy models.

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welcome back to the "new york times special edition," only on msnbc. i'm john harwood. here's what's making headlines right now. the associated press is reporting that at least a dozen recent incidents, flights by u.s. jet liners malfunctioning equipment made it hard to see how fast it was flying.

a similar incident in the air france flight in june. the discovery suggests the equipment problems are more widespread than believed. jenny stanford is moving out of the governor's mansion, but says she is continuing to work on her marriage following her husband's affair. in about a half an hour, mel martinez is retiring early. nbc confirmed he intends to step down by the end of the month. and now, it's time for "the caucus." joining us now -- our first topic is the economy and health care. jackie, we had unemployment figures out today which were better than the white house expected. how much of a boost does this give obama? >> i think to show what a boost it gives him, you have to think

what it might have been. there was talks it might have been as high as 10% that would have opened the door for republicans to you know, ramp up their attacks, that the stimulus from february didn't work, that the policies in general were a failure. that didn't happen. still nearly a quarter of a million people out of work. brings us to about 9 million people out of work since the recession began. so the administration continues the balance act and not getting so optimistic that it doesn't sort of feel the pain of all the people losing their jobs. >> do you get the sense there's a real spring in the step of the white house? not only did they have the news on joblessness, they had sotomayor and the freeing of the

two hostages. >> the sotomayor confirmation, welcome news, but expected. as to the jobs numbers, i'd say they're breathing a sigh of relief. a lot of people fearing that would hit 10%. >> i've heard the rate was going to keep climbing until next spring. do we have any sense yet of whether they think that is going to start now and be sustained beyond this number? >> i think there's a sense it's bottomed out. most of the economicists that i was reading their forecasts were expecting 9.6, 9.7. but the hope is that this is not only that we've bottomed out and it will actually start to come down a little because remember, this is a nearly 10% rate that

compares with their projection of 8% employment. they'd like it to come down closer to 8. >> before i turn a mark on the north korean story, i want to ask you about sotomayor. 68 votes. nine republicans. how did that come out in terms of the president trying to show breadth of support and republicans trying to protect themselves from the charge that they're unsympathetic to the hispanic electorate? >> i think president obama got a little bit of a dose of his own medicine. when he was a senator, he voted against the confirmation of chief justice john roberts. he said at the time, he felt he was qualified, but they were more qualities for him and judge roberts didn't meet that test. well now, republicans are kind of applying that same obama rule, if you will, to the

confirmation of justice sotomayor. so while he got a good victory, he had 59 votes of democrats, he would have 60 had senator kennedy been there. he got nine republicans. i don't think you could say he got broad support among republicans. >> i've heard some democrats make the point, even some republicans, that because there were only nine votes and 31 no-votes, that republicans are going to take a big hit. >> they might. >> i think that republicans were respectful towards her. nine votes is not chopped liver. it's something. it's not as high as some people thought it might go. i don't really see them taking a big hit from this debate. do you? >> i think it may go district by district or state by state. if you look at kay hutchison, that's a state with a lot of

hispanic voters, so that may come back to her. other states with not such a large hispanic population might not suffer. >> i think they you know, do no harm. they didn't particularly hurt themselves, but that's measures from a very low point where they had just about lost any semblance of support. and again, this is another one where you have to remember where we're coming from. george w. bush when he first got elected was able to increase the republican percentage of hispanic voters and his, as you know yourself, his advisers were intent on building up that percentage by 2004 so that based on opening, only eight years ago for the republican party, to actually capture the hispanic vote and look how far away we are from that. >> and look at the news today on mel martinez stepping down early. >> mark, let's talk about bill

clinton in north korea. first of all, how did he get involved and i want to ask you about a headline i saw in the huffi huffington post. hillary upstaged by bill again. >> you have to say on the day that the president, former president, flew into north korea and pulled off this rescue, if you want to call it that, was the same day that she went to africa for an 11-day trip and to an extent, he did eclipse her for a day or two. >> in a good way. >> and in a way she's certainly not going to be unhappy about. she was very involved in the planning on how to get these two young women out of captivity. al gore was one of the people who was earlier thought of as a potential candidate for this job. the way it unfolded, the north koreans got the message that

they wanted someone from the united states with the stature of the president and they wanted bill clinton. the white house did due diligence. they talked to the north koreans and determined that if the president went, he wouldn't be embarrassed, he would bring the two young journalists out with him. >> robert gibbs at the white house has been saying consistently, it's a private mission and no linkage to any other issues. this is a pure ly humanitarian mission. do you accept that? >> well, look. they were very clear about this and it made a lot of the sense to be clear. a former president, someone who's out of office doesn't have authority to negotiate with the north koreans on their nuclear program. to that extent, they're right. on the other hand, he's a former president with a long history in north korea. he's intimately aware of the issues. >> he almost went as president.

>> his final weeks in office, he really wanted to go and didn't because a deal seemed out of reach at that time. so what he did do, he went. he took away with him his own insights of the health of kim jong-il, his psychology. and he'll now go to the white house or perhaps the white house will go to him and they'll debrief him thoroughly. and that will then go into the white house's calculations going forward. >> let me ask you about one more thing for that trip. that's the stage directions. bill clinton knew he was going to have a success, which he did. but when he was sitting down there with kim jong-il, i've never seen a more grim look on his face. how important was it for him to have no trace of a smile? >> extremely important. this was primarily a publicity

opportunity for the north korean leader. he wanted the world to see him on the same stage with a former u.s. president. president clinton's job was to give him as little as a publicity push he could. the only trace of a smile i saw was when he was standing at the top of the stairs welcoming the two young journalists. >> i've got to think, given how me must have been feeling, that was one of the hardest acting jobs ever. coming up, u.s. forces have reportedly killed the chief taliban leader in pakistan. if they have, what does it mean for the fight in neighboring afghanistan? we'll talk to richard engle. plus, 40 years later. reflections on the woodstock

festival. i wasn't there. a woman who was tried to explain it all to her son. at 155 miles per hour, andy roddick has the fastest serve in the history of professional tennis. so i've come to this court to challenge his speed. ...on the iernet. i'll be using the 3g at&t laptopconnect card. he won't. so i can book travel plans faster, check my account balances faster. all on the go. i'm bill kurtis and i'm faer than andy roddick.

(announcer) "switch to the nations fastest 3g network" "and get the at&t laptopconnect card for free".

it should be no surprise that after video games like wii boxing and dance, dance revolution burn more calories and energy than simply sitting in front of the tv, but energy expended was equal to a brisk walk. this doesn't mean they should replace physical activity, but can be a good alternative. we're back again. developing now, reports today that the chief taliban leader in pakistan has been killed in u.s.

missile strikes. richard is live in kabul, afghanistan. richard, i know some people in the white house are eagerly -- do we know it, have we confirmed it? >> reporter: we haven't confirmed it 100%. the biggest problem is no body has been recovered. the attack allegedly took place on wednesday in an area very much under taliban control, so there would be no u.s. forces or even pakistani forces that could go in, recover and identify a body, but pakistan's foreign minister says he's quite confident that baitullah mehsud was in fact killed and officials from the taliban also have confirmed that he was killed. >> so richard, if no body has recovered, can we be confident in those reports and what's the

basis for the ground bases for what we're hearing. already taliban officials were meeting today to try and choose a new leader, so that is an indication that something significant happened. it could all be a game, a deliberate tactic to try and confuse people who are hunting baitullah mehsud, but people believe he has been killed. the taliban is also very concerned that there could be upstrikes by the u.s. fimilitar to catch them in a state of disaway. >> thanks so much for that update. and today, president obama signed into law legislation revving back up the catch for clunkers program. last night, the senate approved a vote providing another $2 billion for the program.

from today to next friday, i'll be taking part in "talk to the times." i've got a few for you right now. let's start with meredith -- >> you grew up in washington, d.c., so some people would probably consider you an insider. how do you maintain your objectivity when reporting on politics? >> all right. guilty as charged. i did grow up inside the beltway. the notion of liberal bias in the media is not a fantasy. it's a fact if we're talking about the orientation of people who go into journalism. however, it's also true conservatives whine about it too much and it's less than in the past. now let's go to allen.

>> hey, john. given the current state of journalism with newspapers closing, do you think it's still possible for a young journalist to work their way up through the ranks at the paper and make a career in journalism? >> i think it is possible, but it's not going to be a single-shot career in the newspaper business. as you see there's a "new york times" show on this network, everybody is looking to branch out in media. there's still a value for journalism, you can still make money, but you've got to be able to do it online, in front of a camera and you've got to be able to write as well. one more question. michelle. >> even though the only thing people seem to remember about that interview you did with obama, that pesky little fly, what part in your opinion, was the most important?

>> you're right. everybody remembers that incident. i thought the most significant bit of news that came out of that interview were his comments about iran. he made the observation there wasn't that much difference between president ahminedjad and mousavi. that attracted criticism for president obama, but he was trying to distance himself from getting too out front in terms of the outcome of that election and the u.s.' response to it. you can e-mail us your questions. more video from "the new york times" website now and reflections on woodstock. one woman attended the festival and chronicled the events with her son. >> facebook and myspace, that's

sort of the culture. i don't think there's an antiestablishment thing anymore because sort of what we started with this technology and popularize is becoming the establishment. i think that's the dominant cultural trend. >> why won't you let me go on facebook? no, but i understand and also, i think that you guys get your sense of community from facebook, which is a virtual woodstock in a way. >> that's interesting. kids new establishment. just remember, don't trust anyone under 30. it was held in bethel, new york. 32 musicians performed in front of millions of concert-goers.

i mean, if i was trying to -- this is my house now. so it probably wouldn't happen. but let's say my old house in chicago. here, i'd get shot. >> now i was sitting in front of president obama at that news conference. i laughed at that joke, but is his sense of humor edgey? matt bai joins us now. is he over the line? >> over the line depends on where you see the line. i think there is a generational element to it. if you grow up with seinfeld,

"saturday night live," you have a different idea of things. we're used to mocki ining genre. it puts americans who really bought into the ideas of hope and change and don't like this undercurrent that comes with that humor, the sort of sarcasim that can bleed through. >> you talk in that piece about this as another side of the phenomenon of presidents not really saying what's on their mind. you mentioned the cambridge police acting stupidly. i happen to believe he was telling the truth and they were acting stupidly, but clearly, that was not the message he wanted to convey and it got in the way. is there any indication that the humor part is also stepping on the message they want to convey on policy?

>> it's absolutely stepping on the message. people go off script, we call them phony. that's a recuring theme. we say what's wrong with them. there's a little bit of a catch 22. you can't just have a funny thought. at the same time, i think there's a cost because i think that the quality that he has and the way he has of signalling to people, that this seems as crazy to him as to you, is very central. >> some of that bill clinton stone face that he had in that north korean photo. thanks, matt bai. and that's it for this hour of

"the new york times special editio editio edition". is this really grass roots rage or k-street trying to impact the debate on health care. plus, why is congress planning on spending more than half a billion dollars of your texas money on private jets? it's all part of the big picture and it's coming up here on msnbc, the place for politics.

mr. evans? this is janice from onstar. i have received an automatic signal you've been in a front-end crash. do you need help?

yeah. i'll contact emergency services and stay with you. you okay? yeah. onstar. standard for one year on 14 chevy models. you all want to run your businesses more efficiently, so we've brought in a team of experts to help. one suggestion is to make your shipping more efficient with priority mail flat rate boxes from the postal service. call or go online for a free supply and up to $160 in offers from authorized postage vendors. shipping's hassle! weighing every box... actually, with flat rate boxes you don't need to weigh anything under 70 pounds. if it fits, it ships for a low flat rate. ok, but i ship all over the country. you can ship anywhere in the country for a low flat rate. ship international, too. yes, but i ship hundreds of things, in all sizes. great, because flat rate boxes come in four sizes. call now and we'll send a free supply,

plus up to $160 in offers. when you're ready to ship, we'll even pick them up for free, no matter how many you have. priority mail flat rate boxes only from the postal service. a simpler way to ship. call or go online now to get started. the big picture today. health care town halls turn violent. not just shouting protesters anymore. it's now shoving protestors, with injuries and arrests. why are things getting so out of control? plus, moving out. the wife of south carolina mark sanford says she is taking the kids and leaving the governor's mansion. what does this mean for the marriage and his political future? and flying high. congress plans to spend more than half a billion dollars on

brand new jets to cart them across the country. in this economy? really? later, suspended for not saying hi to the boss. a city worker got docked two days pay. good afternoon, everybody. i'm david schuster, live in washington. >> i'm monica novotny, live in new york, filling in for tamron hall. in the big picture, town hall meetings turning angry and in some cases, violent. in tampa, florida, a crowd trying to get in, turned into a shoving match. and in detroit -- called a fraud and repeatedly interrupted as he

tried to explain the president's health care reform. and in missouri, street fights after a raucous meeting held by russ karnahan. is this democracy being denied or perhaps something completely different? how did an effort to explain and debate health care reform turn into a series of angry mobs? are these angry americans exercising the right to free speech or simply following the instructions of conservative operatio operatives in washington. the vice president for policy of freedom works, one group organizing the protests -- max, first of all, thanks for coming