about the democrats' health care plan. >> as i recall, stalin in the 1920s issued about 20 million end of life orders for his fellow russians. pol pot did it during the vietnam war. he ended -- issued about 2 million end of life orders. it's being done in africa today. mugabe is doing it every day. adolf hitler issued 6 million end of life orders. he called his program the final solution. i kind of wonder what we're going to call ours. >> in a mature democracy of 300 million people, can a couple hundred noisy protesters and a few demented ones like this guy actually hijack a serious national debate about health care reform? joining me now is congressman anthony wiener of new york city.

congressman wiener, how do you like being compared to stalin and hitler because what you're trying to do is extend health care coverage to people in america who don't have it? >> they say if you've got the facts, you pound the facts. if you don't have the facts, you pound the table. i guess nuts like this are really banging a drum for an angry message. the problem with all this is these are pretty seer why is issues we have in front of us. people have legitimate december agreements how to deal with them. we're not getting to them because one guy is shouting so 200, 300 people can't get their questions answered. history is not written by guys in that team. history is written by people who really engage in their democracy in the way it should. i kind of welcome it. i welcome the passion, that we can figure out a way to let everyone have their say, i think they're going to wind up with a better product. >> the "new york post" has a report that you had a meeting of some kind with constituents in new york city, and the way you did it they say is that you just didn't announce it ahead of time so the nuts like this couldn't go and disrupt it. is that the way to do this? >> that's funny, somehow the "new york post" knew to go there.

>> i was wondering about that part. >> if we were trying to hide it, inviting the press to come by was a strange way to do it. no, we did -- >> did you schedule it late? did you schedule it at the last minute? >> no. we went to a neighborhood senior center as part of a tour i'm doing all around the district, trying to find people where they are in the middle of august. there was no effort to hide from the debate, and frankly, we had a pretty good debate in that room. what was interesting, a lot of people who were legitimately compared because some of the things they've heard on angry radio, you know, i've had so many medicare recipients stand up and say, i'm outraged about government-sponsored health care, let's do away with it. these are medicare recipients. obviously some of the message is getting garbled. i've got to admit, lawrence, i'm kind of torn. to some degree i like a good fight and i think it makes for sometimes an informed debate. but we do have a situation now where you have people just standing up and yelling no, no, no, no when people are trying to ask questions. i don't know who benefits from that. >> would the democrats have been

strategically better off, especially those who believe -- there's a large group in the house who believe single pay is the way to go. delete the word 65 and over from the medicare statute, open it up to everyone. if you had gone for a program like that, you'd at least have chair charity in the argument. it's a yes or no vote for something people understand. if you don't understand medicare, someone in your family's getting and they can answer for it. right now i've talked to voters, very educated, new york city voters, this past week. obama supporters, intense obama supporters. none of them understand what the house has voted on already in question. none of them understand what the senate finance committee is talking about or what the president's talking about. and they're trying to. how do you then go out there and in this month try to turn around that massive confusion into, oh, okay, now as a voter i understand what i support? >> well, look, you're exactly right. single payer, government-run health care, the best way to explain what that looks like to people is point to medicare. if you say to someone who's 55 years old, you're going to get

medicare ten years earlier, they're thrilled. >> financing problems which is a -- >> that's right. and you're better off being able to call your congressman to fix them than signing up to buy stock of a health care company. but you're right, if we learned a lesson from '93 and today, it's simplicity is what is -- really helps us. these are complicated things. to some degree the white house is, i think, making a mistake when they think kind of bringing some of the insurance guys into the tent and some of pharma into the tent. the fact of the matter the insurance companies are going to have to realize that when they're putting hundreds of billions of dollars in their pocket, it's taking money out of the health care system. but all of that being said, one thing is enduring. and that is the republican -- the opponents of this plan fundamentally are standing for more of the same. and i think most americans when you talk to them understand that's unsustainable. >> when i listen to nancy pelosi's language about attacking the insurance companies as final marching orders to you guys going into recess, the part i don't get

about that is the bills all preserve the health insurance companies, and order more customers into their operations. so how do you condemn them, say they're the most evil thing in the country, and by the way we're going to keep propping them up with this legislation? >> you're exactly right. i think nancy went a little too far. health companies are doing what private companies are supposed to do. maximize their profits, give as little as way for the dollars they write in. my job is to try to get taxpayers a value for their buck. you're right, we are trying to shoehorn this in. what the obama plan is way better than the present situation. but i think everyone's argue is the same thing. if you have a puck plan, then the insurance companies will have to compete. well, if more and more people are choosing the public plan, why are we even bothering with the private plans? i think that's the conflict we're in. i believe a single-payer plan like medicare for all is something that people would understand, it would wind up costing us a lot less money, we

take the money that's going into insurance profits, put it into quality health care. it's a sell but at least it's a sell that people understand. >> anthony wiener, thank you very much for joining us today. what is your next public meeting scheduled? >> i'm refusing to say. e-mail me. no, we'll be at key food in marine park. >> there you are. thank you very much, congressman wiener. for more, let's bring in our panel. john harwood, cnbc's washington correspondent and political writer for the new york times. sam stein, political writer for "the huffington post." anthony wiener's not afraid of the mobs. i don't think the mobs have made it to new york city. in some of those districts out there, some of those swing states and swing districts, i don't see any end to this, do you? >> i don't. and i think it's going to have a disproportionate impact, especially on those representatives and senators from the red states who are much more electorally nervous than people like congressman weaner the city of new york. look, i think simplicity is a virtue but i think there is zero

chance that congress is going to pass a single-payer plan. what i do think is likely, though, that is the heat over august is going to polarize the situation, is going to end up snuffing out any remaining hope of a bipartisan plan, and you're going to see democrats come back after labor day and march this thing forward under the banner of reconciliation and try to get the votes on the democratic side, they probably can do it. >> sam stein, when you see all of the confusion that surrounds these plans, that are basically indescribable to civilians out there, looking back, how about this for a strategy. the democrats get wiped out on this in 1994, they stay quiet about it for two years, then they start introducing the medicare for all legislation which they know they're going to lose on. they start to get some hearings on it. and you know, about 15 years later, right around now, the country is actually ready for a real yes or no vote on medicare for all. that seems to me in retrospect to be a better way to go. >> hindsight is 20/20, i guess.

and ideally, yes, you would have greased the wheels before introducing comprehensive health care bill. you know, the issue here, and i tend to agree with john, is that there are very few avenues to get health care legislated. and right now, what you're seeing with town halls is that some of the doors are attempting to be closed even further. and i have to agree, listening to the white house recently, and talking with senator schumer as well, which john did as well, the issue of reconciliation is going to come up at some point. and there is going to be a sort of fed up aspect of the democratic caucus, whereby after september 15th when finance shuts it down, they're going to just guard the party and get what they can get. and you know, i think that's what the ultimate outcome's going to be. >> we're going to get some of john's interview today with kent conrad, the senate's expert on reconciliation, to see what he thinks the of the prospects actually working. john harwood, i don't see what's different in the current model of behavior, both in the house and the senate, from 1994.

i don't see what the play is that gets them across the finish line. what's the different play? what's the new pass play? what's the new double reverse that someone's invented in the meantime to get there? >> a couple of things. first of all, you've got a robust majority in the house as you did in '93. however, it as more ideologically homogenous majority, a more liberal majority. you can control and marshal more votes as a leadership than in 1993 when you had southern democrats wiped out in '94. secondly, you've got 60 votes in the senate, 59 if senator kennedy cannot return. i think there is a pent-up an tight. you have some industry and business players support. the combination of those things and barack obama's skills means there's an opening for this to happen. i've talked to dick gephardt a couple of months ago. he said, i'm seeing exactly the same dynamics as '93-'94, we ought to punt right now on trying to expand coverage for those who don't have

uninsured -- don't have insurance now, and try cost control, and do the coverage part later. i don't think the democratic caucus has any appetite for doing that. but it's very tough. >> sam stein, as we move closer to the finish line, not one of these bills that's been voted on in the house has universal coverage. and in fact, the amount of coverage that's being suggested is getting smaller as we move along in the process. when we get to september, october, and the finance committee's delivered something, and you're out on the senate floor, might the fight actually be this very, very difficult fight that only covers -- ends up covering about half of the uninsured or a little bit more than half of the uninsured and people start to look and up say, why are we even bothering trying to do all of this if we don't get the universal and going to have to come back and campaign for universal again? >> well, i take it one step further. the irony of this debate is while obama is being charged with socialism he'spared down his health care plan

drastically. the one downside to town hall protests, there's real division within the democratic caucus over what's happening right now. i know there's a bunch of senators threatening not to vote for a health care bill that does not contain a robust public option. republicans could reap the benefit from exposing the differences within the democratic caucus. they're getting painted with pent-up frustration and nazi images. they could do it more subtly and expose what are really dynamic difference in this the democratic caucus in the senate. >> we'll be back to our panel later. are the obama care protests any different from the hillary care protests 15 years ago? we've seen in movie before. is there still time to change the ending? i'll ask former clinton labor secretary robert white next. cash for clunkers is available at your chevy dealer, but funds are going fast. so hurry. let us recycle your older vehicle and you could qualify for an additional $3500 or $4500 cash back

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but we lost 247,000 jobs in july. that was nearly 200,000 fewer jobs lost than in june. and far fewer than the nearly 700,000 jobs a month that we were losing at the beginning of the year. today we're pointed in the right direction. we're losing jobs at less than half the rate we were when i took office. we've pulled the financial system back from the brink.

>> that was president obama on today's better than expected jobs report. the unemployment rate dropped a hair, from 9.5% to 9.4% nationally. the obama white house is looking for positive signs but the bigger question is, how will we know when we've recovered? the president has already warned that it won't lack like the good old prebust days when the dow was over 12,000 and people were buying houses with no money down. joining me now for more is robert reich, professor at uc berkeley. he's also author of the book "super capitalism" now available in paperback. you're secretary of labor, the new unemployment report comes in, you've gone down .01%. how does that feel? >> i would not break out the champagne. for one thing, we are continuing to lose jobs in this country. the good news is that we're

worsening at a slower rate. that's not exactly good news. and it doesn't even include all the people who are too discouraged to look for work, it doesn't include all the people who are working part-time who would rather be working full-time. it doesn't include the millions of people who were lucky enough to get a new job when they lost the old one but are being paid less than the old job paid them. this is still a terrible situation for most people. >> how would you define recovery? >> i would define recovery as guessing unemployment down to 3% or 4% or 5%. and also getting the payrolls way, way up. and getting earnings up. those are the three issues. and we're nowhere near. it may take another year. it may take another two or three years. this is an economic problem. but lawrence, it's also a big political problem, because next year are the mid-term elections and every republican is going to be talking about not only health care, if it's still in the works, but also the bad jobs numbers and the obama administration, and many

democrats are going to have to say, well, we're doing everything we can. >> now, as labor secretary, you're flooded with statistics every day, all this stuff coming at you. what would you be asking for most urgently? what would be the indicator you're wanting to look at now to try to predict what you thought would be happening six months, a year from now? >> i'd look at first-time claims for unemployment insurance. that's very useful. that shows basically where people are, how many people are out of jobs and worrying about it. i would also try to find some indicators that showed the number of people who have been out of work for six months or more. right now we have a record number, record pessage of americans who have been out of work for six months or more. they are going to run out of their unemployment insurance, even extended unemployment insurance, in september. that's a very important figure. and we've got to make sure that comes down as well. >> now, you're a veteran of the clinton health care wars 15 years ago. you were around in the '60s during the big protest explosions that broke out then. what do you make of --

>> i'm not that old, lawrence. >> i'm saying you were in high school when those protests were going on in the '60s. what do you think you're witnessing now? this does seem different to me, what's going on in these health care protests. what do you think? >> this is much more coordinated and organized. this is -- you know, we have a word for it, and you've used it. it's as ttroturf rather than grassroots. it's coming out of washington, washington lobbying groups that are very, very closely associate with the. party. some of it's being fomented by angry, right-wing talk radio. but this is designed not to enhance the debate. this is designed to bring down health care as part of a long-term strategy as they tried in 1994 to bring down the clinton administration and regain control of congress. that was the republican strategy. and to some extent it worked because in 1994, they did regain control reserve control of congress.

>> robert re criticismich, than joining us this afternoon. a new twist in the florida senate race. undefeated professional boxer floyd "money" mayweather has the fastest hands boxing has ever seen. so i've come to this ring to see who's faster... on the internet. i'll be using the 3g at&t laptopconnect card. he won't. so i can browse the web faster, email business plans faster. all on the go. i'm bill kurtis and i'm faster than floyd mayweather. (announcer) switch to the nation's fastest 3g network and get the at&t laptopconnect card for free.

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welcome back to "the ed show." now for "ed-lines." president obama met with new york senator schumer at the white house this afternoon to speak about health care reform

at the senator's request. the meeting came a day after some house democrats announced opposition to a white house deal with drug companies that would place a cap on the pharmaceutical industries' share of the cost of health care reform. senator schumer said of the issue, "when i read about it, it gave me heartburn." but there could be plenty more in the various health care bills to give a new york senator heartburn. one of the little-known economic facts about new york city is that its single-biggest employer is the health care industry. so when a president is pushing legislation to reform that industry, a new york senator has a lot to worry about. florida senator mel martinez announced his resignation from the senate this afternoon. >> at this stage of my life, and after nearly 12 years of public service in florida and in washington, it is time to return to florida and my family. so today i'm announcing my decision to step down from

public office effective upon a successor taking office to fill out the remainder of my term. >> the senator had already said he would not run for another term. florida governor charlie crist, who happens to be running for martinez's seat in 2010, could appoint himself as the replacement. but he's already said he won't do that. so now we can assume charlie crist is looking for a place holder to hold on to that seat so that it will be an open seat for charlie crist to run for in 2010. today, the senate ethics committee dismissed complaints against senators chris dodd and ken conrad. the senators came under scrutiny last year after questions arose that they may have violated the senate gift rules by accepting discounting home mortgages from countrywide financial. wheel the ethics committee found they did not violate the rules and there were no sweetheart deals they did say dodd and conrad "should have exercised more vigilance" in their dealings with countrywide. coming up, rahm emanuel

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welcome back. as democrats in congress take the health care debate to their home states this month, the message from the white house is clear. the democratic infighting has to stop. this week, white house chief of staff rahm emanuel warned liberal groups to stop attacking blue dogs in health care ads. meanwhile, president obama told democratic senators that he didn't like the liberal groups spending advertising dollars to take aim at congressional democrats. joining me now, democratic congressman elliot engle. he serves on the house energy and commerce committee. he represents new york city. congressman engle, let's take a look at an ad moveon.org is

running. >> today in georgia a patient lost insurance coverage for medical care she needs -- hospital bills will eat up another family's savings. >> a small business owner is worried about affording health benefits for his employees. >> when congressman john bare rerecently had a chance to help fix our health care crisis, he vote ed no. instead of helping georgia families get more affordable choices, congressman barrow sided with the special interests and insurance companies. >> congressman engle, is that helpful to the process? >> well, i'm on that committee and i voted yes. but i don't agree with the ad. i don't think it's particularly helpful to the process. we have a lot of work ahead of us to show the american public why we need health care reform, and we do, and we can make the case. 47 million americans without any kind of health coverage. people denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions. and co-payments and the cost of health care premiums has risen way, way beyond the rate of

inflation. so we should be concentrating on that, on convincing the public that we need health care reform. i don't particularly think an ad like this is very helpful. >> now, you and john barrow have very different districts. you represent a section of new york city, he's -- represents a district in georgia. what do you think about his no vote on that bill in the energy and commerce committee? what do you think motivated him? >> well, i know john barrow. he's a good member of congress. and we're friends. we disagree on this particular issue. i did not like that the seven blue dogs, in essence, held the bill hostage until they got what they wanted. but you know, they're only doing what i do. they're only fighting for their constitue constituents, for what they believe. it may be different from what i believe. but they're fighting the good fight. >> are they fighting for their campaign contributors? >> well, i can't say what they're fighting for. all i know is that i'm fighting for health care reform, because the american public desperately needs it.

we all need it. the current system is unsustainable and the republicans are wreaking havoc throughout the country, disrupting town hall meetings with orchestration, with -- right out of a playbook. and we need to convince the public that health care as it currently is not sustainable. and therefore, we need reform. and i think president obama is doing the right thing and a good thing by going around the country, spreading his message. and that's what i'm trying to do. >> congressman, are you getting any pushback from your constituents on what you voted on so far and what charlie rangel's committee has delivered which includes three new top tax brackets? that revenue would be taken disproportionately from new york city compared to other areas of the country. so i can imagine there's a certain pressure on you about some of the things that are in this bill already. >> well, look. no bill is perfect. but what we are doing out of the energy and commerce committee, and the three bills that are now -- have now passed committees, we are trying to

reform health care. people think that the current health care is just sustainable. they can continue a year from now, five years from now, to have the same health care. we're saying, no, it's not sustainable. premiums are going to rise. more people are going to be uninsured. more people are going to be denied coverage. if you lose your job or change jobs, you're going to find that you have no coverage. so we're trying to reform it to make sure that the american people have the kind of coverage we need and deserve. there's a lot of confusion out there. when i'm getting from my constituents is people are asking questions. people want to be able to keep the health care they have now. and that's what this does. if you like your health care, as the president has said, you can keep it. you can keep your doctor. we just want to make sure that hospital emergency rooms aren't being used -- continuing to be used to give so many people primary health care. the system is broken and we need to fix it. and the democrats have a plan to fix it. republicans have a plan to

disrupt town hall meetings and to be negative and to just say no. the same party that voted against medicare and medicaid back in the 1960s. so we have a positive plan. we think that when the public knows the plan, they will support it. and charlie rangel's idea was to get some revenue from the top brackets of people who are millionaires, who are making the million dollars or more per year, if that happens to fall disproportionately on new york city i'm glad people in new york city can afford to do that. we're not looking to tax middle income people or people that can't afford it. if we have any money for this bill, any kind of taxing will go only to people making the million dollars or more a year and i think that's fair. >> congressman engle, thank you for joining us on "the ed show." >> thank you, it's my pleasure. >> for more on the health care wars, let's go to our panel. we've got -- what's happened here? we've got sam stein, we've got junk in my teleprompter who's not telling me on the show.

we've got sam stein, we've got cnbc chief washington correspondent john harwood. john harwood -- we also have michael medved. i know that only because i see him on the monitor. someday the prompt is going to catch up with the show here. michael medved, what do you make of this protest that's going on out there now? it does seem organized. and there was an early version of this discussion where we were saying, doesn't this work against the protesters? because they look so chaotic and they look as if they're just there to say no and cause trouble. now is it mature? we're calling it maturing over the matter of 48 hours. does it start to look like, hey, wait a minute, this whole area is just too contentious and crazy, maybe it just hurts both sides of this reform effort? >> yeah, i think if you take a look -- i haven't been to any of these town meetings, i have vent phone it firsthand. when you look on youtube, these do not look like the kind of events you would want to participate in. what i think is ironic here is the democrats so much attacking

people for doing what tim democrats have called upon, which is people getting involved in the democratic process. let me tell you, i've had people call my radio show who themselves have gone out to these meetings and they're upset and they're concerned. they are not paid. they are not foot soldiers of some kind of jack-booted republican storm troopers. they're normal americans who are worried about one thing, and that's spending. and that is the 100-pound -- 8-pound gorilla in the room. it now appears that we are going to go over $2 trillion with our deficit. and the real question about health care, and this is something that congressman engle i don't think addressed adequately, the real question is, how do we pay for all this? debt is of great concern to americans. grassroots americans, ordinary americans. and i don't think the democrats are helping themselves, president obama, by saying you have no right to go out and to protest and to make your concerns known. >> the protests are coming from

both sides now, including what we just saw from moveon.org running an ad against the democratic congressman in georgia. barack obama wants that ad to stop. nancy pelosi wants that ad to stop. rahm emanuel wants that ad to stop. what's going to happen on the left, in the attacks that they're aiming at the moderate democrats? >> they're actually going to go up. conversely. i talked to a few of the officials with the groups actually running these ads who say they're just going to actually increase their ad buy. they find these politicians are being too thin-skipped when it comes to these ads. they can take it to their elected officials. let me make one distinction about protesting on the democratic side and the republican side. sciu which is sponsoring some of these counter protests if you will preceived phone calls and threats of gun violence today. proclamations they were nazi officials. rush limbaugh listed an address of one of their headquarters in st. louis and urged people to show up. twitter feed telling people they

were going to show up with guns at the headquarters. that doesn't strike me as the democratic, lowercase "d" style of protesting. i don't think anyone would really advocate that. i don't think it's proportionate to equate what's happening amoney these labor unions to threats of gun violence and charges of naziism. i just don't. >> we're going to get to john harwood and his interview later in the show. this country's passed government-run health care before. how did johnson do it? it's very important for me to uh check my blood sugar before i go on stage. being on when i'm feeling low can be like a rollercoaster. it does at times feel like my body is telling me to do one thing... and, my mind, my heart is telling me to do something else. managing my highs and lows is super important. with my contour meter i can personalize my high/lo settings so it really does micromanage where my blood sugar needs to be. i'm nick jonas and never slowing down is my simple win.

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getting a public health care plan passed is not impossible. we've done it before but it seems many people either don't remember or just don't know it. like the people attending a town hall for a texas democrat, jean green. >> i'm serious in this room, how many people by a show of hands oppose any type of socialized or government-run health care? >> in the united states, we have socialized medicine. it's called medicare. and all of us will get it eventually. and all of us know someone who's happily out right now. 43 million americans are covered by the program today. we've already heard, don't touch my medicare shouts in the health care debate. medicare faced steep opposition in the legislative stage in the early '60s. critics warned of the dangers of socialized medicine.

you might recognize this face. courtesy of a 1961 american medical association campaign. >> write those letters now. call your friends and tell them to write them. if you don't, this program i promise you will pass just as surely as the sun will come up tomorrow. and behind it will come other federal programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country. until, one day, as norman thomas said, we will awake to find that we have socialism. and if you don't do this, and if i don't do it, one of these days you and i are going to spend our sunset years telling our children, and our children's children, what it once was like in america when men were free. >> medicare passed the house on july 27th, 1965. a day later it passed the senate. and lbj signed it into law on july 30th. at the truman library in independence, missouri, with harry truman, who had first proposed national health

insurance by his side. joseph califono, special assistant to president johnson, he is now the chairman of the national center on addiction and substance abuse at columbia university and joins me now by phone. the struggle to pass medicare was not done in one legislative session. it was over a few years in the early '60s. and in the end, the vote was actually a very large vote in favor of it. including a surprising number of republicans, wasn't isn't it. >> yes, it was. i mean, remember, lyndon johnson, right after the tragic kennedy assassination, said he would fight for medicare as long as he could breathe. and until he had breath in his body. he actually had to kill a social security proposed increase in 1964 in order to keep the pressure on the senate and the house in 1965.

but when it was passed, we had half the republicans in the house, 70 republicans for it. and we had almost half the republicans in the senate. there were a lot fewer than there are now but we had 13 out of about 30. so it -- and, you know, what you showed there is exactly right. that attack, we also were attacked, that medicare would interfere with the physicians practicing medicine. in fact, we had to -- after the law was passed, the american medical association came to see lbj in the white house. and the issue was whether the doctors would take part in medicare. it was an incredible meeting because before the -- classic lbj, lawrence. before they could say a word he said, i have a real war going in vietnam, i have no civilian

doctors, will you send vrs over there in and they said, of course. then he called the press in. the first question from the press is, will the doctors participate in medicare? and lyndon johnson turned to the head of the ama and he said, these men are willing to risk their lives to help the civilians in vietnam for their country, of course they'll participate. won't you, doctor? and the head of the ama said, yes, mr. president. now they -- then they loved it. they liked it so much that when we tried to change the way we paid them in 1968, three years later, they fought to keep medicare just the way it was. >> yeah, seems like it was nothing better for the wealth of doctors in the second half of the 20th century than medicare. and when we saw ronald reagan there, joe, saying that the country was going to sink into socialism over medicare, did it surprise you when he became a presidential candidate he never once said, we better repeal medicare? >> no. nor has any republican that i'm aware of, of any significance -- i don't think we've ever heard mccain say it, i don't think

we've heard george bush say it. it really was -- it was remarkable. the other thing is, it's not just medicare. we also have medicaid. and let's remember that while people think of medicaid as just a bunch of poor people out there, medicaid provides -- created the nursing home care that we have in this country for millions of older americans. and they're not complaining about that. >> joe, there are a lot of similarities and a lot of differences between the early '60s, trying to legislate this, and what president obama's trying to do now. there were 68 democrats in the senate when this vote was taken. seven democrats were able to vote against it. and it still sailed through. you had a masterful legislator as president of the united states, which we'd never had really before or since. and you had dynamics, cultural dynamics and social and psychological dynamics going on. for example, as you alluded to earlier.

this occurred in the wake of the assassination of president kennedy. the country was still in mourning. the country was still willing to support things on an emotional basis because it had president kennedy's backing implicit it in. how much of that was a factor, do you think, as this moves through the congress? >> i think that was a factor, lawrence. i think very much so in johnson years. i think there was another factor, which is very important. the 40 to 50-year-old americans were suddenly facing having to take care of their parents. the 65-year-old americans in 1965 did not have corporate pension -- corporate health care plans. did not have -- really didn't have any health care coverage. so that we had a tremendous amount of pressure from the middle class americans to do something and help them. we also, you know -- we made all

kinds of agreements, as you're well aware, to protect doctors in the practice of medicine, to give them things that they wanted, to give the hospital things that they wanted. some of which we're paying for today. but medicare is undoubtedly one of the most popular programs in the history of this country. probably second only to social security. >> joe califano, thank you very much for joining us today, teaching us a little history. >> thank you, lawrence, great to talk to you. coming up, forget 60 democrats. they may only need 50 to pass health care reform in the senate. can the democrats really do it that way? john harwood talks to the only senator who knows. it's the chevy open house. and now, with the cash for clunkers program, a great deal gets even better. let us recycle your older vehicle, and you could qualify for an additional $3500 or $4500 cash back... on top of all other offers.. on a new, more fuel efficient chevy. your chevy dealer has more eligible models to choose

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some democrats think they should leave republicans behind and pass a health care bit with 51 democratic senate votes. john harwood sat down with senator kent conrad, chairman of the budget committee, member of the senate finance committee, to ask if the reconciliation process which requires 51 votes would really work for health care reform. >> be careful what one wishes for. if you try to write substantive legislation using reconciliation, you'll be left as swiss cheese. there's one other critically important piece of this people need to know. under the rules of reconciliation, everything would have to be deficit-neutral over five years. under the budget resolution,

you'd have ten years. that makes a dramatic difference. and under reconciliation, it all has to be deficit-neutral every year after the five years. that makes trying to cover virtually everybody in the country almost impossible. >> music to my ears. i could listen to senate parliamentary procedure discussions all day. back with me now is at any tonight's panel. sam stein, john harwood, michael medved. john harwood, no one knows more about this in the senate than kent conrad. no one in the house of representatives understands senate parliamentary procedure. very few senators do. kent conrad's one of them. are the rest of the senators and the democratic caucus listening to him about this? do they understand how complex and how much it could misfire? >> i think they are and i think certainly harry reid is cognizant of that. i'd be interested in your view, though.

what i think i learned covering you, and i wish i had e-mail then because you were hard to get on the phone, was that senators and particularly senators involved in financial stuff, can sort of figure these things out and make it work and delay things and phase in different provisions to try to work out whatever they want to dor. so i'm a little skeptical that they can't do it this way. you tell me, can they make it happen? >> no, i agree with conrad. what happens is what they will do is raise a budget point of order saying, this provision of the bill right here involving health insurance reform on pre-existing conditions, which is absolutely critical to health care reform legislation, is irrelevant to the federal budget in the following ways. then you need 60 votes to overrule that point. so it will take 60 votes within reconciliation to include most of the things that people want included in the bill. and that's basically what conrad's talking about. sam stein, what about the left out there, the people reading "huffington post" and other

areas who believe they should just forget about republicans because they think this reconciliation process would work. are they going to start studying senate parliamentary manuals anding iffing this out? >> all they have to do is listen to the last part of "the ed show" today apparently. >> it's going to be very hot on you, too. you'll see reconciliation used as the lingering prospect, you better get on board with president president or this will happen. the other thing to look out for, people are talking about it, to have all democrats commit to voting for cloture. the idea the to get around the filibuster, get 60 votes. you have the number of votes. then you can vote your conscience. let it get to an up or down vote.

michael medved, john harwood's right, northernly in this legislative process, it like we could pull anything up from our sleeves and get it into the bill and reconciliation. once you get into this level of discussion the people who are nervous about this, on your side of the world, more conservative side of the world, viewing this reform effort, don't they start to think, sounds like you're cheating. isn't that the only message they would get from their reconciliation concept? >> sure. what's striking is in politics what you want to do is unite your side and divide the other side. and right now conservatives are very encouraged. because we are united in wanting health care reform but not an independent government plan, a government option, not wanting some of the more contentious things that are dividing democrats. when you see things like those ads that you showed before, people on the left running ads against blue dogs -- >> we're going to have to leave it there, michael. that's "the ed show."

"hardball with chris matthews" starts right now. 9.4. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, been down so long, looks like up to me. for weeks the white house has been preparing us for double digit unemployment. that sometime soon the rate would hit 10%. well, the president's spokesman said that again today, but people around here figure the white house was relatively happy today when it got the monthly jobless news. the unemployment rate actually fell by 0.1 of a point to 9.4% and job losses last month totaled 247,000, down from recent months. no one is suggesting these numbers are good, but, yes, they beat expectations and could give the president's poll numbers and

leverage on health care a boost just when he needed it the most. why? because they say that his economic program of targeted and overall fiscal stimulus is beginning to pump some juice into this economy. plus, let's ask this question plainly. is the anger at those health care town hall meetings only about health care or is it really about the culture war? and yes, sadly, about race? there's no question that many people generally oppose reform, but a lot of people think what's got some of those protesters so upset is that they can't accept an african-american as president. how much of this is about health care reform and how much is about the person pushing it. we're going to debate that hot one. and democrat versus democrat. some liberal groups have been targeting democrats for failing to support health care reform. rahm emanuel has said, stop, this doesn't help. are they listening? also, florida senator mel martinez surprised everyone today when he announced today he's resigning before his term expires. in fact, he's qung