killings, rod's words indeed still haunted the friends who once fell under his sway. >> i hate him and love him at the same time, you know what i mean? part of me will always love him but i hate him for what he did to those people. for all the lies he told me, all the control he had over my mind. >> i would like to ask him, why, what happened, how? why did you go mad? >> i wish i never met him. i could still be the same person i am today if i never met him, but i would only have parents now. >> in november, 2000, rod ferrell was spared the death penalty. the supreme court of florida reduced his sentence to life without parole on the basis of ferrell's youth at the time of the killings. in the meantime, the so-called vampire king has achieved the type of immortality he always >> in november, 2000, rod ferrell was spared the death penalty. the supreme court of florida reduced his sentence to life without parole on the basis of ferrell's youth at the time of the killings. in the meantime, the so-called vampire king has achieved the type of immortality he always coveted. the story of the murder and the group's subsequent flight to louisiana is now included on new orleans' famed haunted history tour.

that's this edition of "msnbc investigates." i'm john seigenthaler captions paid for by nbc-universal television this sunday, the happy home coming. >> when we walked through the door, we saw standing before us president bill clinton. now the back story. how the wife former president did washington pay an unacceptable price? or is this an opportunity for finding a new way forward with

the world's most secretive nuclear power? our guest in the middle of it all, the national security advisor, general james jones. then, the obama economy. >> today we are pointed in the right direction. >> job losses point to recovery. but when do we expect to see americans back to work? is the government's still must louse plan reaching them quick enough? joining us, michael bloomberg and corey from new year see on job, housing, and fears of the swine flu hitting their cities this fall. finally, congress leaves for the summer and finds heat over health care back home. the politics of health care reform. anchor of krns's street signs,

erin burnett, and editor of newsweek magazine, john meacham. >> first, general james jones, welcome back to "meet the press". >> thank you. >> this was the scene played out in los angeles. former president bill clinton accompanying the two women back home. what can you say about north korea and more specifically about kim jong-il. >> well, this was a private mess mission and we can get more into that if you'd like but it was a private mission in which there was no official or unofficial messages sent by president obama. so we celebrate the fact that we've had this great reunion but we can say that we can also

report that the president -- the former president did spend time with the korean leader, that he appeared to be in control of the government and he sounded very reasoned in terms of his conversations. his health is a big issue, but obviously we didn't have any time to make an assessment there. but he seemed in control of his faculties and the president -- the former president was able to engage him on the number of subjects. you know, he had a very -- a relationship with his father and when the president was in office, so he was able to make sure that nuclear weapons do not reappear as an issue. >> i don't want to speak with president clinton, we're in the process of getting his thoughts

as well. we have not completely finished with that. but it's clear thus far that he did press home the fact that if north korea really desired to rejoin the family of nations in a credible way, that the way forward is not to build nuclear weapons. and so rejoin the six-party talks and within the context of those talks, they could have a dialogue with the united states. >> north korea doesn't want to be part of the six-party talks. just a few weeks ago they were exchanging words with hillary clinton. do you have any sense that that's changed, that they will come back to that now? >> only time will tell. i'm quite sure the former president was very articulate and very persuasive, that the north koreans know what the global community, the members of the six-party talk expect. and there is a path for them to

move forward. >> any positive signs? is there a deadline in your mind about when they need to come back? >> i think this is such a big issue that and we're making such good progress with our relations with china and russia and other countries to show them the wisdom of making the right decisions. but it is up to them and we know what it looks like. >> how did this first come up, the idea of sending presidents clinton over there? you did a lot of vetting of this idea. what were your concerns and how did it come up? >> well, it actually came up through a private channel through communication from the two girls to their families. and evidently the north koreans implied that if former president clinton were to take on this mission that they would guarantee the release of the two girls. >> but it had to be bill clinton? it couldn't be al gore or bill

clinton or anybody snels. >> they specified bill clinton. and so the president said, well, let's see if former president clinton would be willing to do that. >> so there would be no reservations in your mind or the president's mind? >> i think from day one the president gave us a task of trying to get those girls back and that was -- that really was job number one. and we thought former president clinton said that he would take it on a private way and that's exactly what happened. >> but you're experienced. north koreans say things all the time and don't live up to their agreement. how did you contest that he would not come back empty handed? >> well, ultimately, regardless of all of the backwards and forwards on this, we did have -- we do have channels to talk to the north koreans. we received personal assurance from the leader that they were

the, in their terms, granted special amnesty. and if former president clinton came to north korea, that he would leave with those two girls. and ultimately you would say okay. let's see if they live up to their word athey did. >> an expert that kim jong-il wanted and he got it. there is the former president sitting right next to him. henry kissinger said this, a visit by the former president of the united states and married to the secretary of state will enable kim jong-il to convey to north koreans and perhaps to other countries that his country is being accepted into the and did this president just hand kim jong-il a propaganda victory? >> i don't think so.

we've had this mission with the japanese, the chinese, russians, and we've had 100% support by all of these countries. the former president also asked for the release of south korean detainee and the japanese inductees, which we think would also be a great picture to achieve those unification of those families which are very concerned about. so i just think that we wanted to get those if girls out and north korea gave us a path to do that. by the way, if we haven't done that, we would be having a different conversation tonight -- today, because they would have said, well, you had an opportunity just to send the former president. >> to that point, former president clinton, he goes to kim joung ill and north korea, if you want a break through

that's been so lucid to previous generations, should president obama go to north korea and talk to kim jong-il? >> that's the future relationship of our country is wholly dependent on the ability of the north koreans to understand where they are not only in terms of the united states but this big issue of nuclear weapons. >> but would you rule that out as a potential for a break through? >> i wouldn't speculate on hypotheticals. we are doing the right thing with the whole family of nations. proliferation is a huge issue in iran and it's a global debate. it's not just about bilateral relations. this is a very serious problem. >> let me go through a few other hot button issues. in pakistan, an important al qaeda figure, the head of pakistan's al qaeda leadership,

reportedly killed. are you able to confirm that today? >> i wish i could, to be honest with you. totally. we think so. if you want to put it in the 90% category, pakistan has confirmed it. we know there are reports now from the tribe that he wasn't, that the evidence is pretty conclusive. >> what does it mean? well, i think this is a big deal and it's not only -- by the way, it's not only happening in this part of the world. it's happening in other parts of the world as well with some -- with gradual coming together by the family of nations to reject terrorism as something acceptable. in terms of the reason, it means that the pakistani armed forces and pakistani government are doing quite well in terms of their fight, against extremism. this was -- he was the public enemy number one.

it's their biggest target and we've already seen dissension of the ranks of who is going to follow him. if this happened and we think it d. this is a good thing. >> just so -- you believe he is in pakistan? >> that one is more elusive. we are very much on the hunt. we think that he's still in that general region. but that's a tough nut to crack. this was a big issue. >> >> what he needs to achieve that mission successfully? the question about the washington post reports today about the long-term cost to america. the obama administration spans u.s. involvement in afghanistan and military experts are claiming that they are taking on commitment that will last at least a decade and a cost that will probably eclipse that of the iraq war. what is the end game in afghanistan? what kind of time frame should

americans expect? >>. >> to turn the responsibility and economic prosperity over as quickly as possible. we're doing that three ways. one is the comprehensive strategy that focuses on the troop strength and that is required and security economic development and good rule of law from local mayors all the way up to kabul. the u.n., nato, world bank, all sorts of nongovernmental organizations, all of the instruments are there to turn this thing in the right direction. the question is, how do we get

them to work more co-hees civil. that's the new strategy. and if we can get that done and we will know that fairly quickly. we published the new set of metric. they are being developed in concert with the congressional guidance. we have an envoy hard at work to frame this whole thing and we think it's going to move in the right direction. >> you can't predict here where the tipping point is, just like we couldn't predict it in iraq. if it's done right, the tipping point will be much, much quicker. we will know whether this strategy is working within the -- by the end of the next year and we'll be able to make some predictions by that time. >> general mcchrystal wants more troop force afghanistan. will he get a skeptical response

from president obama? >> he's doing what all good commanders do when you take over a big job, you do an assessment. he has the overall strategy that's been agreed to and he's making his testament on how to function within that strategy. but it has to be whatever we do, it has to be within the context of what was agreed upon in march. a very comprehensive one and the three american hikers? >> yes, the government has officially acknowledged that they have them in their custody. >> and that is news? >> we do have that confirmation ahmadinejad, is he in the position to engage with the

west? >> we certainly hope so. he's the authority figure that we have to deal with. but there are major problems going on. i wouldn't say major problems but major events going on in iran that have to do with the election. but we have to do with the figure tif authority that are in position. we have sent strong messages that we would like these three young people released as soon as possible and also that they have them in their custody as well. these reason innocent people. we want their families reunited and we want it done as quickly as possible. >> thank you very much. coming up next, how is the president's economic plan fairing across the nation? two big city mayors. michael bloomberg and corey booker weigh in on what they are seeing. plus, our political round

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mayors michael bloomberg of new york city and cory booker of newark, new jersey.

we are back now with a look at the economy and the president's stimulus plan and their impact on big cities across the country. we welcome mayor cory booker of newark, new jersey, and welcome back, and michael bloomberg of new york city. thank you for being here after such a day of tragedy in new york city yesterday and that midair collision between a tourist helicopter and a single-engine plane into the hudson. this was the image of the impact yesterday and what led to, as you told new yorkers and around the region, a grim recovery effort as that went forward

yesterday. and as we look live here this morning, that recovery effort is ongoing now. what can you tell us is the very latest about what you've learned? >> well, the most important thing at this point is to make sure that our divers don't risk their lives because this is not a rescue effort. this is a recovery effort. both the aircraft are under 30 feet of water. we haven't even found one of them yet. visibility is only a couple feet. we do think we've found the helicopter. we've recovered a couple of bodies. we'll continue to search until we get everybody out. but the bottom line is it's going to take time and we want to take care. >> nine people killed, including a 15-year-old boy, italian tourist on that tour, helicopter, as well, such a terrible loss of life and also questions about unregulated travel in the air in that particular corridor. are there some changes that should be made about the fact

that there can be such unregulated travel there? >> well, the national transportation safety board will do a complete complete investigation and figure out what happened and see whether measures should be taken. that in the end will be up to the faa. they're the ones that set these rules as to where you can fly. these are very heavily used corridors. helicopters are very important to the city and used all the time. tourists seem to love it and for commerce. this is -- just an accident, total tragedy, or may be, in fact, if we had different procedures you could have prevented it. we've not had very many accidents in the area. the last one that was most notable was the plane putting down in the hudson river where everybody survived. in this case, we don't think it was survivable from virtually the instant the crash took place. and it's very tragic as you point out. >> all right. let's talk about the economy now. the jobless rate now is at 9.4% nationally, some good news for the administration, jobs being lost at a smaller clip than we've seen earlier on in the year. here's the unemployment rate for your two cities. new york city, 9.5%, pretty close to the national average,

newark, new jersey, however, 14.3%. and it speaks to something that's happening around the country in cities. this is what reuters reported last week. u.s. cities are now vexed by surging unemployment with 18 metropolitan areas recording jobless rates of more than 15% in june, according to a labor department report. it was the sixth continue second noif that all 372 metro areas in a monthly survey registered increases this-in the rate, a full 144 metropolitan areas reported jobless rates of at least 10% in the month, up from 112 in may. a year ago, only six cities had rates that high, more than three-quarters of americans, of course, living in cities. mayor booker, are you seeing recovery? >> well, look, this is an economy that has a tremendous am of pain. unemployment is often the last thing that recovers. so, we're seeing hope and possibility, most importantly, but we're not seeing the recovery yet. and what's good, though, that's happening is the obama administration is giving us a tremendous opportunity to reframe our city and to change the narrative of american cities. so, what while we're doing the

blocking and tackling of trying to help people on unemployment, trying to find ways and opportunities of attracting business and the like, what we're also seeing is opportunities to stimulate a new economy within newark. one of the best examples, there's a new green economy. we believe if you're going to have the american dream in newark, it's got to be a green dream. we've attracted three solar companies to the city under my leadership. we've started training people in weatherization and having people getting good union jobs doing that. we see opportunities to retrofit city buildings and reduce the cost of government and energy. a lot of the streams of the stimulus money are setting the stage, in my opinion, to change newark's economy so it's ready for the 21st century. >> mayor bloomberg, are you seeing recovery? in march you said there was a crisis of confidence. do you see that changes?

>> let me first say something about what cory can't say but has to be true. he has one of the most difficult jobs in america. he's taken over a city where you've had many years of under investment and lack of foresight and he is ooh the future of newark. they have a chance to rectify things. he's got a tougher job than i do. in new york city, we do see some green shoots. businesses are doing slightly better. but remember, we still have people losing their homes, we still have people losing their jobs. i'm encouraged for the future. new york is unique and the country is getting better and the president's programs, i think, are helping, but nevertheless, we can't walk away

and say, well, all we have to do is sit back and it's going to get better. so, we're trying to focus on helping small businesses by reducing their taxes and giving them loan programs, training people for the jobs that are available, not necessarily the jobs they had, making sure that when the other industries come back, the people that we need will be there. and i think what you're seeing is is we've saved $2 billion or $3 billion over the last few years because we thought that the good times would end. we're using that now to get through this tough period, but we're also working hard to attract businesses from around the world to come to us because we have to have a future. >> is the stimulus getting to the cities? >> well, in new york's case, the city's case, we've had a couple of billion dollars in what you'd call budget relief mainly for education and medicaid. we've had some stimulus moneys, much smaller amount, for infrastructure and those kinds of things. i think the main thing the stimulus program has done so far, however, is given the country hope that there will be more economic activity down the road because, remember, most of the stimulus money hasn't been spent yet.

the infrastructure money we've got, the requirement was shovel-ready projects. we have some. we're actually putting it to work. we're trying to create new jobs, jobs that would not be there otherwise. but we do have a crisis of confidence, and i think this president can look back on six months in office and say i've gotten the country a little bit through that, i've given them some hope. we still have a long ways to go. nobody should suggest that this is easy. but i think you've seen the worst and now if you have worked in the past and made investments and diversified your economy you're going to have a future. >> let me talk act taxes. mayor booker, if the president wants to expand government with not just the stimulus program but also a massive health care overhaul, can he keep his pledge of not raising taxes on the middle class? is that the responsible thing to do? >> well, look, in our cities we're finding that the more we can create tax incentives, the more we can create tax-free zones, the more you stimulate the economy, the more you create opportunity. if we're going to create competitive cities for the future, we've got to continue programs like the one started by jack kemp and supported by many democrats, which was enterprise zones and things like that. i'm hoping, and my conversations with the obama administration is if they're looking for ways to create more competitive cities to compete with the mumbais, the dubais, the shanghais, cities

like new york and cities like newark. the challenge is when you want to do more and provide more as a government in terms of services, we have to figure out a way to pay for it. but take the reality of health care for example. right now urban hospitals are being crushed under the weight of paying for the uninsured, paying for undocumented immigrants. i've had two hospitals close in my city that sent out tsunamis in terms of waves of people that need help and need support. we've got to find a way to pay for these things because unfortunately the cost is getting passed on. >> that's the question. can you do all of that? can you relieve that crunch and just tax the wealthiest americans or do you have to extend that? >> you have to talk about totality. if you don't have things like tort reform or advocating prevention programs, if you start working more aggressively in the totality of the problem, you reduce the burden on the

taxpayer. that's why cost control is important. >> mayor bloomberg, this is something you wrote in may in "newsweek" magazine about the challenges for president obama. if he's willing to risk seeing his poll numbers in the 20s, he'll earn many more long-term victories and deep respect from voters. is he living up to that, or is this refusal to think about a middle-class tax hike inconsistent with that admonition? >> two separate questions. i think he is living up to that. my advice to him is there's two important things to do when you take office. one is to build a team. number two is to address the toughest issues right away because then you have time to take unpopular decisions and win the confidence of the public back when your decisions turn out to be the correct ones. and he has. he can't take on everything, but he's certainly taken on a number of controversial things here and he's been dealt a tough hand, although it's fair to say that every president coming into office has a tough hand. it is not an easy job. i think he is doing exactly what he should do. we'll have some failures. then there's no easy answers. everybody wants more services. nobody wants to pay for them. you can only get so much money, so much blood out of a stone. you have to share the burden. we have to make sure that we're

competitive with countries overseas, as cory said. we're in an international competition for the best and the brightest and for jobs. >> mm-hmm. >> and this country's immigration policy, for example, is driving the industries of the future overseas. if you take a look at where the most innovative medicine is being done, it's being done in india, and an awful lot of the doctors doing it were educated here. >> but does the president have to look beyond the rich for taxes? >> well, yeah. there's just -- the middle class bears the real burden here. that's why the middle class is getting hurt. and what you keep hearing, i take the subway in the morning, and people, everybody talks about what their complaints are. it's new york. and paying taxes is something nobody likes. now, they like the services that taxes pay for, but you have to have the burden -- everybody's going to have to sacrifice, everybody's going to have to reach in their pocket if we're going to have a city and country of the future. >> does he have to reconsider

that promise not to raise taxes on the middle class? >> i think we'll see down the road. in the end, the president has to deal with the reality, and some of the things are beyond his control. have the burden -- everybody's going to have to sacrifice, everybody's going to have to reach in their pocket if we're going to have a city and country of the future. >> does he have to reconsider that promise not to raise taxes on the middle class? >> i think we'll see down the road. in the end, the president has to veal to raise taxes on the middle class, but we certainly are spending an enormous amount of money that we don't have. and we've got to get our costs under control. we've got to be a lot smarter in defense purchases. we've got to be a lot smarter, as cory pointed out, in providing medical services. one of the big problems with health care is that we spend a

lot more than we do in western europe but they have a longer life expectancy than we do. there's something wrong. and addressing that issue are the people in there giving -- doing the things that we want? do we have the right hospitals in the right place? are we relying on the right tests? cory mentioned tort reform, and unless you do tort reform and immigration reform, you're not going to really fix the problem with health care. >> let me talk to you both about a very important public safety issue and that's the issue of guns. mayor bloomberg, you have spearheaded an effort called mayors against illegal guns. you've spent $2.9 million of your own money in that effort. you recently were successful in defeating the nra. there was an amendment in the senate that would have allowed individuals to carry concealed weapons across state lines. you defeated the nra. that measure failed in the senate. but even in defeat, the nra

claimed some silver lining. this is how the las vegas sun reported it last sunday. >> how can you muster the clout and the power to take on the nra? >> we have 450 mayors representing 50 or 60 million people. it's mayors -- cory, myself, john peyton in jacksonville, tom menino in boston -- mayors who have to go explain at the hospital to the loved ones that their sons, daughters, spouses, parents aren't coming home. we see the damage of illegal guns. and i think that we can pull together. you know, the nra doesn't spend that much money. if you look at what the real numbers are, i think that we can pull together here and raise enough money. and incidentally in the past, i gave some, i did my share, but there were plenty of other people that did, as well. we can raise enough money and take on this issue and explain to congress this is an outrage. there's a federal law that says criminals can't have guns and we should enforce that law and get guns off the streets. nothing wrong with the second amendment. >> would you personally put more money in? >> i'm not only going to do that myself but ask plenty of other people to do it. if you want to beat the nra, you have to get your message out and that costs money.

that's all we're trying to do. i don't think this was a victory for me in the thune amendment defeat, this this was a victory for america, this was a victory for all our police officers across the country who would have been more at risk with their lives if the lowest standards were applied to everybody, which is what the amendment is about. >> we have to break out of this left/right debate. this is not an issue of the nra versus liberals. this is an issue that mayor bloomberg and i agree that, i'm not concerned about law-abiding citizens having access to guns. not one shooting in my city last year was by somebody who went,

had a background check, bought a gun in my city. does not happen. what we're concerned with is these myriad of laws that create a flow of illegal weapons into our cities that most americans -- in fact, mayor bloomberg, again, extraordinary leadership, polled gun owners and 80% to 95% of gun owners agree that these laws should be changed. example. how is it you can be on a no-fly list as a potential terrorist but you can still go to a gun shop and buy a trunk load of weapons? how is it you can go to a retail shop and done a background check on you to buy a gun, which we all accept is reasonable, but off loophole at gun shows? which means again a terrorist or someone with malevolent intentions can go get a truckload of weapons. most gun owner, the overwhelming majority agree, these loopholes should be closed. this is an american issue, not a left/right issue. >> are you disappointed with president obama for not leading the charge against assault --

this ban on assault weapons? >> no, but i'm certainly going to urge him to do so. i talked to an knee duncan and he said one of his signature issues is guns. when he was in chicago he watched 12-year-olds get shot by some crazy guy with an illegal gun and it's just got to stop. and i couldn't agree more. i'll certainly urge everybody. this isn't a bat where will you want to assign blame. as cory pointed out, it's north, south, east, west, big city, small city, republican, democratic, same people say there should be reasonable controls. the supreme court has said reasonable controls are constitutional. we're not trying to get rid of guns. we're simply trying to get guns out of the hands of criminals where the federal law says they don't have a right to buy them. >> let me ask you about education. swine flu this fall, what impact is it going to have in both your cities, especially this question of whether schools should be closed as a result? >> we dealt with the swine flu this past spring. we made the decision repeatedly whether to keep the school open

or closed depending on the percentage of kids that reported to the nurse with a fever and cough. the experts basically say if the child appears sick or you appear sick, stay home until the symptoms go away. but closing the schools isn't the right answer in most cases for a variety of the reasons. one, the kids aren't going to stay home. they're going to go to the park, where they're just as likely to catch it. two, remember, a lot of parents work and missing a day of work or, worse, leaving the child home unsupervised puts the child in danger or hurts the family. and number three, there's just no evidence that it really stops the flu. a lot of this is by the time you find out people are already infected. the good news is this has been a relatively mild version. the bad news is we don't know what's going to happen before. but even the the president recommends that we keep the schools open and the centers for disease control now run by my former commissioner department of health and mental hygiene has said basically, evaluate it every time, but closing the

schools as a blanket thing is not the right solution. >> go ahead. >> again, we have to do the basic blocking attack that's going to protect our children especially from this challenge. i want to allude to something mayor bloomberg has been a national leader on. we can't allow the problems today to distract us from tomorrow. we need to give full attention to swine flu, but the real health challenge in schools today is the overwhelming obesity problem, childhood diabetes. these are the kinds of things we have to have a comprehensive health initiative. not only will parents know what to do if they have the sniffles but i also want parents to know what to do to prepare their children nutritionally. these long-term health problems will have an effect on our gdp in the level of billions. >> mayor bloomberg, you're up for re-election for a third term and here's the headline recently about the poll.

the poll suggests the mayor may be losing some ground. you were up in june by 22 points over william thompson, your rival. now that's narrowed to ten points. why do you see the race tightening? >> well, number one, the polls don't matter other than the one that's taken on november 3rd, election day. >> i've heard that before. >> number two, some of these things are how you ask the question. three, i can't worry about that. i got elected twice because people wanted know listen to them and do what i think is right and stand up even if it's not good politically but just focus on not giving away the store, make sure the government is efficient and deliver the services people want for the least cost. i'm going to continue to do that. that will resonate with some

people, and others say i want a political environment where i can get my friend appointed or i don't want to change something because it's worked and i'm comfortable with it. and i happen to think there are new things you can do all the time, and if you don't, you won't have a future. i'm just going to do what i think is right. >> mayor booker is very political aastute, and on twitter he recently wrote -- so, mayor, you can make news here. will you shave your head for re-election? >> let me equivocate on that and duck the issue. but i think -- my hair is falling out at sufficient rate that i won't have to shave. >> time for a preemptive strike. >> i know you're going to say that. >> ip endorsed mayor bloomberg. he's a republican. we cast our country too specifically in left/right debates. he's been a leader on gun issues for all americans, brought people together on low carbon

footprint, the left/right coalition. this is the way to move forward. we have issues in the country that unite people. i am the right leaning for ex-offensive ender programs because we miss the opportunities to get them to work where they'll produce tax receipts and benefits for society as a whole. i'm proud to sit here as a republican because that's the only way our country will move forward. >> your name was mentioned for potential governor of new jersey. governor corzine is staying in the race. he's vulnerable, as you well know. what will this race for governor of new jersey say about the president's performance? >> well, i think this is two separate issues. governor jon corzine has been a governor that has been extraordinarily successful. murder in our state has gone down 24%. he's had to cut the state budget $4 billion, but yet he's increased investments in education over billion dollars. the problem with jon corzine right now is most of the state of new jersey does not realize the tough cards he was dealt and the great decisions he's made under difficult, difficult circumstances.

and as far as obama, look, we have two graces nationally right now, virginia and new jersey. many people want to use them as a litmus test against the incumbent president. but understand this -- we're in a down economy, facing incredible challenges. every incumbent in america is going to face very difficult times in their re-election. this has nothing to do with the president. we are in national crisis. hopefully, we're going to come together to do this. it shouldn't be about watching the stock market. >> thank you both for being here today. next, congress takes heat this august over health care back home. who will win the battle over it? our political roundtable weighs in, david brooks, erin burnett, and jon meacham. in the i've been growing algae for 35 years. most people try to get rid of algae, and we're trying to grow it. the algae are very beautiful. they come in blue or red, golden, green. algae could be converted into biofuels... that we could someday run our cars on. in using algae to form biofuels, we're not competing with the food supply.

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and we're back. if you thought the health care debate was heated in washington, outside the beltway it's gotten down right hostile. >> open up the door! >> from tampa, florida. >> just say no! >> to austin, texas. >> this man would --

>> to romulus, michigan. town hall meetings over health care have turned chaotic. death threats against members of congress, taunting and shouting, even fistfights. democrats claim it's all political theater organized by reform opponents. >> i also have no doubt that there are groups that are -- have spread out people across the country to go to these things and to specifically generate videos that can be posted on internet sites. >> i mean, is that what we've come to in the united states that we're going to have people basically functioning as thugs coming into meetings, trying to disrupt them, shouting people down? >> republicans in office and on the airwaves insist the anger is real, reflecting real fears about a government takeover of the health care system. but the rhetoric has become extreme. >> there are far more similarities between nancy pelosi and adolf hitler than between these people showing up at town halls.

the protest, a hitler-like policy. >> white house advisers say the tactics will backfire against the gop, but can the president retake center stage of this debate? >> and we're joined now by jon meacham of "newsweek" magazine, cnbc's erin burnett, and david brooks of "the new york times." welcome to all of you. david, that is the question. that what's going on here and how does the president retake center stage? >> i hadn't seen the rush limbaugh thing. that is the question. what is going on here and how doeses the president take center stage? >> what he's saying is insane. but i guess i would say that the first thing is, there's been conventional wisdom. it's such a tough issue. and the obama administration is better than the biden and bipartisan so leaders of both parties didn't do it. they chose more or less the

democratic plan and now all hell is breaking loose. and it's not just the crazies, but if you take overall poll ratings for health care, people are -- the american public are not as skeptical as when the clinton health care collapsed. there's a real public concern about real issues. >> when you look at this from the approval rating and the quinnipiac poll, the president's handling of health care. here are the numbers. approvals at 39%, disapprovals at 52%, erin. that's the question. big battle lines about whether this is manufactured grassroots organizing, opposition against health care. the truth is there are people who are angry and there are people who are opposed, whether they're being whipped up in some circumstances or not. >> i think that's absolutely true. you've seen those numbers drop

dramatically in terms of approval. numbers from the end of july and in the past couple weeks how dramatically they've dropped. americans don't want health care that isn't bipartisan. i think people are focusing in on the health care plan is focused on extending coverage to all. the cost cutting that might be required as part of real health care reform doesn't appear to be a significant part of this bill and that's getting through. most people, when it comes down to it, sort of like the health care that they have and then they get afraid that's going to change. that's partially i think what you're seeing. >> also the question of where is the president's leadership right now? because there's the criticism that he's overlearned the lesson that bill clinton learned, which is you can't dictate to congress, let them do it. but what is he for? and in the absence of that, people are whacking everything. >> i think that's exactly right. my sense is if you ask a lot of even very well-informed people what's in this plan, i'm not sure a lot of people could really explain it. and i think that it's an unusual failure on the president's part to execute a kind of public education. i don't think he's made the case for this and now to go to the insane point from our conservative colleague, now you have the extremists taking over, and it turns into a very predictable, very un-obama-like fight of the extremes where you're going to have the folks coming in saying socialism, socialism, socialism, you're going to have the left saying that they're all crazy. and by the time it's over, what's really going to happen.

and i think that's -- this is the opportunity. the president has an opportunity here to step in and say, look, we've all -- it's hot. it's august. let me explain what this plan really is. and i just haven't -- i personally am not understanding that. >> sarah palin on facebook to the point of the opposition, this is what she writes -- the rhetoric, and also the question of what's true and what's false and what people are arguing about this notion of a death panel. >> again, that's crazy. the crazies are attacking the plan because it'll conduct off granny, and that's simply not true. that simply is not going to

happen. the real reason for public skepticism is obama very eloquently and very truly said we've got to bring down health care costs. everybody's costs are rising. it's eating into your wages, the budget, everything. and the problem with the house plan is instead of bending the cost curve down, it would increase the cost curve so inflation would be 8% a year when it's all implemented and that's just disaster. so, what the obama administration has to do, and i agree with jon, make this obama-like, say weerg going to produce a plan. and i hear by the end of the month they'll have a plan. say this is what we stand for. you can't sell anything without a plan, but it has to be a plan that cuts costs to have a rational discussion instead of scaring people. >> and out of the white house the message is they'll focus on consume procedure text from insurance companies and they say they have polling once americans

hear that message support goes up. >> people love their doctors and hate their insurers, a basic way of looking at it. i think they need to talk about that more. obama has said, and the thing that has interested him most as president is he thinks the country is interested in complexity and will listen to explanations. i just don't think there's been that effort on health care. understandable reasons. there's a hell of a lot going on as you heard from the mayors. >> i'm sorry. i want to talk about the economy to that point, erin, and bring you in on this. the good news this week, the job loss chart and here's what it showed. it shows the job losses slowed to the lowest level since august of 2008. you see that orange bar is the number of job losses over 200,000, but a lot better than it's been. there is a flip side, though. there is some bad news. another chart shows you people who have been out of work for six months or longer is actually at the highest point that it's been in some time, topping out in july. what do we make of this?

>> it's a tough one because -- and you saw this playing out, how the administration reacted to the numbers on friday. there is something to celebrate in that you can't go from losing 600,000 jobs a month to adding jobs the next month. that is a process. we are in the midst thoof. that is about as good as news can get. what you also saw on the unemployment rate is a lot of people are dropping out, giving up. we are likely to see an extension of the already extended unemployment benefits so a little help there. but it raised the question you raised with the mayors. the stimulus money. is it really working? how quickly is it going out the door? the most important question for the economy is once that money is spent, and we're going to get $100 billion for each of the next five quarters, but once that is spent, what is next? what is going to drive economy forward? the president has said that's going to be alternative energy. we don't yet have, interestingly, an energy bill or a real alternative policy. >> we do have cash for clunkers, though, that they hurried to reauthorize. >> that part was great. when they came in office, they said it should be timely, temporary and targeted. a lot of people think they should just ram $400 million

into the economy through payroll tax cuts, whatever they can do. instead of, that they had a very complicated stimulus package that was spread out over long ooh period of time, maybe 10%, 20%, depending on how you count it has gone out so far. that has had some success and plugged some holes but it has not tremendously stimulated the economy. meanwhile, we have another $500 billion we haven't spent a time of and that's going to come out and has relatively little to do with stimulus. i think they should have gone back and done a temporary, targeted thing like cash for clunkers. >> that's a tough one, though. you get an immediate pop from that. i've been talking to auto executives in the past couple days, and they're saying we might have a bubble, factories will reopen, but we don't have the demand in that this country to sustain that. >> the stimulus doesn't do anything long term. >> it's not a long-term plan. i would be remiss if we didn't spend a little time on one of the images of the week. a great political story in burbank, california. you had a former president and a former vice president, clinton and gore, with the two journalists in north korea coming home. and there was the much commented on lingering hug between the two.

jon meacham, a fascinating political story. they were in the '90s after the 2000 race, estranged far while and seem to be back together again. >> it's like the bush/clinton brokeback mountain. you know, we're back to that. i think the -- what's so terrific in a way is clinton was able to get these reporters out. that's a very serious matter. north korea is a foe of almost epic -- possibly epic dimensions. and anything that gets us in there to get a sense of who these people really are is a good thing. sending the most -- sending bill terrific in a way is clinton was able to get these reporters out. that's a very serious matter. north korea is a foe of almost epic -- possibly epic dimensions.

and anything that gets us in there to get a sense of who these people really are is a good thing. sending the most -- sending bill clinton, whose emotional intelligence is off the charts, was really lucky for us. if anybody can come back and paint a character sketch of what's going on with those people, it'll be bill clinton. and i just want to say if it's all right -- >> sure. >> there are two places where this is going on right now. "newsweek" has a correspondent who is being held in custody without access to a lawyer and without a formal charge in iran. there are a number of show trials going on in iran as that regime, like the north korean regime, tries to hold on to power and would urge all of us to pay attention to the situation in iran in that we have people who are being held without due process, which is personally tragic but also a significant political story, because it's about a regime trying to fight history. >> we have about 20 seconds, david brooks, general jones talking about the potential for breakthrough with both north korea and iran with the spirit of engagement.

is there something that happens out of north korea that paves the way for that in a different way? >> i think in both cases the regime is more likely to change than the nuclear program. we have to focus on changing the regime, not persuade crazy regimes to change their nuclear program. >> thank you all very much. that's all for today. we'll be back next week. 1 #