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. thnchts is control. control over our lives! >> and fighting fire with fire. for the first time health care reform supporters are bringing

out the big guns. will it be enough? about-face, after calling president obama's health care plan pure evil, sarah palin flip-flopped on facebook. the fight over flight. the south carolina governor mark sanford use the state plane for personal business? it looks that way. and a controversy is putting his future up in the air yet again. and why is jon minus kate? kate goslyn gives an exclusive interview about why the couple split. and the hotown hall brawler are rowdy, but are they unamerican? you'll see if others think they're crossing the line. good afternoon, everybody. welcome back. i'm david shuster live in washington. >> i'm cameron hall live in new york. good afternoon, everyone. in the big picture, health care town hall. david, as we know, they've been disrupt add cross the country.

some have even turned violent. now there is a report of someone bringing in a gun to a meet and greet, not a town hall, but still nonetheless a member of congress present. a visitor dropped a gun and picked it up at a meet and greet event held at an arizona grocery store last week. now her aides did call police after fearing for the lawmaker's safety. no one, thankfully, injured in that. nobody arrested. meanwhile, president obama is trying to take back the discussion on health care reform after angry town hall meetings took the focus away from what many, of course, say the real issue here. the white house is trying to get the upper hand in this message launching a new website called realitycheck. the obama administration is using it to clear up the myths out there about health care reform. and house democratic leaders have also set up a health care war room of sorts in the midst of their august recess. they want to give democratic

lawmakers a chance to get answers on health policy and also help each other respond to the series of political attacks out there. john decker is a washington correspondent for reuters. he joins us live from inside the white house. john, it's great to see you. >> reporter: good to see you, tamron. >> you have the white house setting up this website. when you look at the town hall meeting, not a lot of young people. it's a lot of older people who may not be necessarily internet savvy. who is this really aimed at this reality check? >> reporter: it's aimed at people that have anxiety of the health care overhaul from congress once the bill finally bets put through. so it's not necessarily geared to one dem graphic group. it's geared to just many americans out there who have concerns, who have questions about the type of overhaul that is being put through congress right now. >> and it's interesting, john, i want to point to something the president said in his weekly radio youtuba dress. trying to dispel a lot of the

rumors that are out. there let's play that. >> let me start by dispelling the outlandish rumors that reform will promote euthanasia or cut medicaid or bring about a government takeover of health care. that's simply not true. >> john, what do we make of this? our own chuck todd noted when you have the president talking about euthanasia and trying to clear that up, this is a best example of the white house maybe really not in charge of the message at least up until now. >> they're on the defensive. there's no question about it. and i think that this is what the white house and leaders in congress fear that if there wasn't a bill that came through the house and the senate before the august recess, that they would be dealing with this right now and these town hall meetings are indicative of that. they may not be reflective of a percentage of voters against the health care plan but they're flektive of the anxiety that americans feel about an overhaul of health care. >> and it is that message that we're hearing from those people at the town hall that seems to

be the loudest voice even if it is not necessarily the majority. and we're still trying to look at those numbers. i want to bring up former governor sarah palin. she went on facebook and referred to what we're seeing as evil. but now she is taking back, john, as you well know, some of her comments. now we must stick to the discussion of the issues and not get sidetracked by tactics that can be accused of leading to intimidation or harment. wh harassment. what do we make of the new sarah palin compared to what we saw a day or so ago? >> it was just over the weekend when she had this comment she made on her youtube -- sorry, facebook page in which she referred to death panels and said that plan being offered up in washington is an evil one. unfortunately, there's no plan that is calling for these "death panels." and if there was one that, certainly would be evil. i that i what sarah palin realizes is her rhetoric got ahead of her message. and she's pulling back. and that's exactly what she did today. >> john, always a pleasure. thank you so much. i know there are a lot of little

nuggets that's ball continues. thank you. >> thank you. >> now the bigger picture, each of the key groups and constituencies in this debate, now the best argument is sometimes a personal story. but one story conservatives have been using is falling apart. conservative activist claimed that after criticizing the reform, he was roughed up by union members. his lawyer said that man was beaten and punched. but mr. gladly douses up and without any obvious injury. >> i didn't want to get involved in this at all. >> now there is more to the story. it turns out that he has no health insurance because he lost his job. that's right. he was laid off and lost his insurance. the key issue that democratic reform proposals would fix.

the details of the reform plan can be confusing to everybody. and the positions of key groups and constituencies can be bewildering as well. so here's help. the for profit health insurance industry is the government-run plan known as the public option because the insurance companies here that consume woerz find the public plan more affordable and attractive and insurance companies would thereby lose customers and profits. the biggest labor union support a public plan and calling on members to counteract right-wing activist who's have been disrupting town hall meetings. the unions, though, do not want any plan to be paid for by taxing employer based health care benefits. since many union deals over the years included such benefits. drug companies also favor the white house plan in principle. lobbyists are spending as much as $150 million in commercials supporting reform n exchange, the drug companies extracted promise that's the bill will not soar a rate for drugs.

reigning in the drug companies is something that mr. obama promised during the campaign. and so progressives argue that the president has been a flip-flop. the key drug companies onboard. another group supporting reform is aarp. the group just unveiled a multimillion dollar campaign and surrounding the debate, they're trying to reassure seniors who fear losing that to care. >> special interest groups are trying to block progress on health care reform. derailing the debate with myths and scare tactics. >> we have aarp's legislative policy director us with. in addition to the ad campaign you, have a lot of moving parts here. do you believe it's enough for the obama administration to assist in this battle for reform through the website, fact check videos, through op-edss that enough? >> i think it's all part of a concerted effort that we need to help dispel some of the myths and scare tactics being used out there. simply just going through the

web sites not going to be enough. we need to go through web sites, through the press, town hall meetings, a combination, i think, would help get us back on to the real debate, the issues people care about and not the scare tactics that have been raised. >> what is the key falsehood that is out there that you think is scaring seniors and is not true? >> i think several of them right now, some of the allegations have been about a government takeover of health care, rationing care, particularly scary to seniors. there has been some suggestion that doctors are going to force you to sign away your rights to live and actually have to die. these things are just absurd. there's no policies out there. there's no plans out there that go to any of these issues. >> now i know that aarp with this ad campaign is trying to counter that. how are you doing? you are winning this or losing? it does seem basically some of the innings that pop-up, people are confused and that cannot be a good oman for getting reform done. >> that is true. there are real issues in the health care reform debate, things we've been talking about for many years. we're getting sidetracked now

with some scares and lies. frankly, people have a vested interest against health care reform are really the ones perpetrate something of these, you know, myths. they want to have it throughout for them. we started our own campaign today to try to combat the myths. we're hoping we can get back on real track of getting affordable health care and lowering prescription drug care cost ands making sure that people can see their doctors. >> david, were you at all caught off guard in any battle you had misinformation? by intentional means or by here is accident. that is what two doctors over the weekend who say they have countless patient who's are confused and just want the basics. they want to know where the president stands or some solid information that they can wrap their minds around. so who then is at fault for getting to this point where you and other organizations have to spend more time fighting this than you are really telling people the black and white of what this means. what is health care reform?

>> there are a lot more ways to get out to the people with misinformation. we have got under the fence a little bit. everybody was talking about both democrats and republicans. the needs to reform health care reform. now we have people trying to scare people to say we don't need health care reform. we have to get back to the real issues of affordable care, access, lowering prescription drug costs. >> david, thank you so much from the aarp. chairman, i think you got it right. it is a lot easier to beat this argument back with falsehoods than it is to try to explain here's how all of us are going to benefit with reform. >> and that's the thing. now we are in this august recess. and you wonder how much of that time really will be just beating back all of these myths out there when you've got doctors saying their patients are confusing and in some cases the doctors say they are confused where the line in the sand is of what this administration really calls health care reform. it makes for a very interesting four weeks. it is heartbreaking, david, when you see the seniors fearful that

there are death panels that will determine their existence. that is very scary. it is truly the true sense of the word a scare tactic out there. >> indeed, it is. david, in less than 90 minutes, the ntsb will update its investigation into what caused a sight seeing helicopter and small plane to collide in mid air between new york and new jersey on saturday. meantime, the recovery efforts have been suspended due to what new york police commissioner ray kelly calls treacherous conditions in the hudson. a strong current and visibility underwater near zero. and divers had been in the water until about 1:00 p.m. today trying to recover the two bodies that remain. those victims of the crash, the plane's pilot and an adult passenger. the divers are also hoping to recover wreckage of the small plane spotted by sonar under 50 feet of water. the wreckage of the helicopter was pulled out yesterday under difficult conditions. divers were only able to see about a foot in front of them. nbc's ron allen is on the new

jersey side of the hudson river in hoboken. ron, as the search is suspended, the investigation certainly is continuing. what is the latest? what are the new details that they're piecing together what happened there? >> reporter: well, they say it is suspended because there is a lot of activity on the water. there have been boats out there, crane on a boat. there seem to be divers and little boats. we can't tell if they're going in and out of the water. but there is a lot of activity for what is a search suspended. that is something we'll ask the ntsb about when they have the briefing at 4:30 or 5:00 eastern. we believe one reason for the delay is that the ntsb officials were talking with the families that were involved in this. and this really was at some level a family tragedy. there was a family aboard the plane headed to the jersey shore for vacation time. there was a family and some friends aboard the help couldn'ter from italy who were victims of that part of the tragedy. at this point we really don't know what they are finding as they dove over the wreckage of

the helicopter. they managed to pull it up. we believe they located most of the wreckage of the plane. again, because the conditions are so difficult at 60 feet deep, they're unable to bring it up as of yet. we will problem hear more about what timetable they have for that. of course, once they have the wreckage, that givers them some clues. they also have radar information and pictures from the public. they're looking for more pictures and surveillance videotape from some of the businesses that are along the river. so they're trying to piece together everything that happened in as many ways they can to try to find out what happened. >> ron, as they do that, have there been more calls about these sight seeing tours and whether they should be allowed? it's a very busy airway over there. >> i think at this point that is a bit preliminary. there is a lot of attention focused on what is going on on this river. there are a number of congressmen from the area calling for flights to be suspended. the bottom line is we're talking about an area that is a mile or

less wild, several miles long. and at any given time of the day, particularly on a bright summer day, there could be as many as 15 to 20 aircraft flying around at very low altitudes. without contact with an air traffic control system. it's a lot like driving down a highway. but again, every time there is a tragedy like this back in the case of 2006, there are calls for tighter restrictions. and there are, of course, security concerns in this corridor of air traffic as well. so, again, we're going to hear more about that as we go forward and about the investigation as to what happened in this specific set of circumstances. tamron, back to you. >> thank you so much, ron. you know the other disturbing part about all of this, of course, it is so awful for all the families. just getting a report that there may be thousands of new yorkers who witnessed this thing on saturday. so disturbing to see something like this happen. >> yeah. and it is for people, you know,

who don't know the area, it's just down the street from ground zero right near also where we had that air force one scare flyover as well. you know people are absolutely shaken up. david? >> indeed. up next, yet another one, david. a new claim about who is really the biological mother of michael jackson's children. katherine jackson's attorney called these people, folks who are looking for a genetic lottery. plus, a new scandal for mark sanford. accusations about misusing state money and using his government plane to fly back home for a hair cut. and today's making their case. president obama save us from the second great depression? that's the big question out there. what is the big answer? most for headaches. for arthritis pain... in your hands... knees... and back.

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there are new developments. stories and a new controversy for the governor of north carolina. personal flights could be putting mark sanford's political life on the edge. kate breaks her silence. that's the mother from "jon & kate plus eight." she said she is doing as well as can be expected in light of the breakdown of her marriage. she became emotional during an appearance on the "today" show when talking about her children and why she still wears her wedding ring. >> i don't want to upset them. while it's been very real and as hohn environment honest as i need to be, i don't want to shock them.

>> even though she is wearing the ring, kate goslyn says she does not believe she will reunite with her husband jon who has been seen out with a number of other women. she says it's not -- it is very clear that they are two different people with two different sets of goals. and, david, probably could have seen this one coming. people are coming out of the wood work claiming connections, claiming to be the parents of michael jackson's three kids. >> that's right. the godfather of michael jackson's children now says he could be the biological father of paris jackson. mark lester told british tabloid news that he donated sperm for debbie rowe, the mother of jackson's two oldest kids. lester says paris bears resemblance to his daughter. a court hearing is underway about jackson's estate and there are conflicting reports about whether kick of pop will be buried? courtney hazily joins us from los angeles. courtney, let's start there. the conflicting reports about when he's going to be buried. what's that all about? >> reporter: you know, we've

been hearing so much since literally the day of the memorial whether michael was buried or not, at that point in time whether he was barry gordy's -- there was the site that is the focus of this from the beginning. nobody from the family has confirmed that is the case. nobody i talked to said that is true. in fact, quite the contrary. they said no, there is no burial today. so just another wrinkle in this story that never seems to have a normal day to it. >> now what about the children and custody and who is the real parent? where does that stand? >> you know where that stands legally is where it was, you know, before we got here today on monday. the woman stood up in court and said i'm the mother of blanket. and then came outside here and just launched into this tirade of claims that honestly were bizarre to say the least. and she has no attorney. she's representing herself. she is rattling off names of people that she said are the

real father of these kids. truth be told, until she can prove some real connection to michael jackson, it's probably -- it's distracting to sensationalize it. you have real kids here who are still mourning the loss of their parent. she shouldn't be out and saying such things. >> well, you know, here's the other thing. this whole issue of mark lester, he's coming forward because he simply wants to be able to visit, not because he wants parental rights. >> right, david. among aulg the claims that we're hearing about who is the parent of these kids, mark lester has the most solid one. and that's because he's not trying to be a parent. he's not trying to get custodial rights. he's saying i want to be able to maintain the relationship that i had with my kids before michael died. now a lot of people are saying if you were that close, then why doesn't the family, including katherine jackson know about it? and truth be told, that's because there wasn't a lot of intermingling. if you wanted a one way ticket out of michael jackson's inner circle, the best way to get that is to get too close to his

family. so mark lester, very close friend of michael's, godfather to the kids. had a relationship with him and had plans with them later on this summer as well. he told that to monday yak know vot any. now he has to speak up like this in order for him to be able to maintain that relationship, david. >> courtney, thanks for the report. >> you got it. david, we just got breaking news in. we were just talking with ron allen out near the hudson. they try to recover that small plane that collided mid air with a helicopter. tonight they resumed the search after suspending it for a short period of time. they resumed it about 2:45 eastern time. and police believe that they have located the wreckage of the plane. they're still also trying to recover the bodies of two victims killed in that awful tragedy. you're looking at live pictures right now. they describe the -- the police commissioner described the conditions of the hudson to be

treacherous. but you see them out there now. they believe that they've actually been able to locate the small aircraft and hopefully will be able to locate the victims and give their remains to the families. as can you imagine, just heart broken by this terrible tragedy. we'll keep an eye on the breaking news out of there. just ahead, the latest on the pair of deadly typhoons devastating much of east arab yachlt look at that video. more than a million people evacua evacuated. and hundreds -- 800 feared dead in this. later in the show, is the taliban really winning in afghanistan? that's what a newspaper headline says today. "the wall street journal," look at what the general may or may not have said about how the war is going. ♪ is to get as far away from it all as possible.

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in today's "need to know," two typhoons in asia.

>> they're creating misery across east asia. morakot hit southeast asia. some 800 may be buried in the mud after part of a mountain broke off and engulfed the entire village. that village is still cut off from the outside world. look at the new video from taiwan. it shows another building collapsing as the floodwaters and they swept ate way. look at that. on saturday, tv crews filmed a different building falling into the river. taiwan's official death toll now stands at 14. and today, the typhoon was barelying across china. one million people across the coast were evacuated. six people are dead. there and the other storm slammed into japan leaving 13 people dead. forecasters warn it could hit tokyo tomorrow. stunning, chilling video over there. still ahead, yet more

trouble for south carolina governor mark sanford. the hits keep coming with this guy. >> that's right. reports he used government planes for private trips. like to get a hair cut. he can survive this latest scandal? also, how do you sell cars when you've run out of cars to sell? we'll talk about the dealer of the unintended consequences of cash for clunkers program. you're watching "the big picture" on msnbc. ( conversation ) garth, you're up. hold on, i'm at capitalone.com picking a photo... for my credit card. here's one from my prom. oh, what memories. how 'bout one from our golf outing? ( shouting ) i know, maybe one of my first-born son. dad, mom says the boys gotta go. personalize your card by uploading... your own photo at capitalone.com. what's in your wallet? ♪

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new contract for 2300 employees in california and nevada. on friday, the company ratified a new contract with nearly 19,000 employees in the midwest. and budget cuts gave a boost to mcdonald's bolt tom line. the same store sales climbed 3.4% in july, partly due to new product offerings like the cafe coffee. that is it from cnbc. first in business worldwide. now back to msnbc. welcome back. i'm david shuster live in washington. >> and i'm tamron hall live for new new york. in a half hour from now, embattled south carolina governor mark sanford is going to host a meeting that he calls open door after 4:00. sounds like a nightclub. they are town hall style events. voters can ask the governor about anything that's on their minds. one of the issues is certainly likely to be the govern's alleged use of state airplanes for personal and political

trips. sometimes with his wife and children in violation of state law a cording to the associated press, sanford has used state aircraft to travel to his kid's sporting event. hair and dentist appointments, thanks giving give aways and even a birthday party for a campaign donor. >> and the bigger picture, can governor sanford survive yet another scandal like this one? according to the associated press story, the plane for the dentist and barber appointment and the kid's sports game and five of the last six thanks giving weekends to fly himself and his wife and four sons from the family's home for the state christmas tree liting. the cost to taxpayers for those flights alone, $5,536 including almost $3,000 for the plane flying empty to pick everybody up. joining us live from columbia is jim davenport, reporter of the associated press. shou this story going over with south carolina voters? >> reporter: it's generated some

interest out there today and yesterday. >> i want to read what you the governor spokesman said regarding this story. he says -- >> is that statement accurate? >> well, look, i'm not going to engage the governor's spokesman on our storey. we stand by our story. i do, however, want to say that the story is based on the facts represented in the public record and provided by the governor's office. >> now as far as the governor's travel, i mean obviously whenever a governor does personal travel and goes to kids' sports games, i guess there is an expectation that you reimburse the state. was there any evidence that the governor tried to do that in this case? >> we have no indication of the

governor trying to reimburse the state for this. there was reimbursement for his travel to argentina last year that was part of the state trip to originate in brazil and where the governor's affair with his mistress began. >> jim, you know, you said you had some interest there. you said it tongue and cheek. but subdued. are people steamed up there? he said this state is hurting. and whether there is discrepancies or not or whether you disputes this, is that a state with double digit employment and more money spent on the travel of this governor? >> i'm actually -- >> i guess i'm asking you to give us a gauge of the response. you said you had some interest in it. what has -- gauge for us the response from people who read this. >> there's another story that's being written today.

it has to do with the legislative reaction. a lot of this has to do with the legislative reaction. we'll let the legislature decide how they want to react to the governor's use of state aircraft. >> jim dafrn povenport of the associated press, great reporting. i have a feeling that legislate yours are not going to be very happy about. this it's going to be to intriguing to see how people react at this event that governor has when they say, look, why don't you resign? i mean every day it is another scandal? >> obviously, it's fascinating to hear what lawmakers have to say. but it's the people. it's the taxpayers' dollars that he was supposed to be protecting and said so. and that's part of him being against the stimulus. i mean i want to hear what the people are out of work in that state have to say about this. >> yeah. we would all like to spend money to go to thanksgiving and have the state pay for it. tamron, cash for clunkers. >> two day after congress

offereded 2 e$2 billion to extee program, dealers are running out of cars. that's a bummer. customers are using the government cash to buy new and more fuel efficient vehicles. and those are models, dealers say, delg out. well this marks a major shift from earlier in the year when the economic down turn left dealers with, you know, too many cars and not enough customers. and rick desilva is the owner of liberty hyundai and liberty sub rue in new jersey. what a problem to have, rick. you know, you go from feast to famine as they say. but give us your perspective on this. a lot of other bad things certainly that you could be dealing with. >> yeah, we look at it as good stress actually is what we look at that problem. but, yeah, we are running out of cars. there's been a lot of activity on the showroom floor. that settled down a little bit coming into today. but up to this point, it's been pretty brisk. we've had a lot of activity. >> certainly when we saw from the numbers the early numbers

showed most people were interested in buying foreign made cars for fuel efficiency reasons. but that were you at all caught off guard? what do you do? do you give someone an iou? how do you handle it? >> we kept up with the pace. but it hasn't only been international name plates. the domestic dealers also have been very successful in bringing people in. they have a lot of cars, too, that fall within the parameters of the program. so consequentli, they have been selling a lot of cars, too. >> tamron and i are dying to know what it all means. i mean everyone wants to say this means the economy is recovering and the cars are flying off the lot. your perspective, somebody that is right there, do you think the economy is turning around? >> you know, it's hard for us to determine that. you know, prior to this program, there was a lot of pent up demand. but i feel that things are turning around. we have seen more people walking through the door, credit for people getting them financing for the vehicles has been a little bit better than it has been in the past.

so consequently, i think there's a good feeling that things are turning around a little bit for all of us. >> here's a key question, are you able to hire any more salesmen or people at your dealership because of this? >> absolutely. we're always looking for good people. it's been tough just keeping up with the flow through the doors. and consequently, with some of the stores that have closed down, there are people looking for jobs. so, yes, we've been able to put more people back on. >> that is great news in itself. >> thank you, rick. the critics say is it allowing for people to get jobs? this is one example of someone who said he's been able to hire. david swreshgs breaking news. i just got this in my hand regarding the dij investigation of michael jackson. the coroner of the department of the coroner in los angeles says they completed the investigation into the death of michael jackson. the investigation they say was thorough and comprehensive but, listen to this david, the los angeles police department continues to investigate. as a result, they're going to

continue to have a security hold on the investigation. isn't that something? so they're going to -- because of this investigation to maintain the integrity of the on going investigation with the los angeles police department has requested a continuous of the existing security hold on all the department of coroner's documents related to michael jackson's death. so they at least know, at least from the coroner what kill him, david. but the l.a. police department because of that investigation that allegedly involves, you know, a laundry list of doctors, they're not releasing the information. so they know what killed mr. jackson now. >> i think we know that it's not going to take long for some of this information to leak out. i guarantee every beat reporter on the story is working the sources to find out what is in this document. the telltale document makes me just go with the reason why he died this is going to come out. we'll see. up next, did president obama save the u.s. from a second great depression?

>> it is today's making their case. and in our next hour, kathy griffith from comedian to cougar? the 48-year-old comedian stepping out with that young man, you know him. he could have been sarah palin's son-in-law. levi johnson? what are they doing kissing kathy griffin? what is this about? we have the details on where they had their date even. some lunch.

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he writes -- >> here to make their case, a correspondent for the "nation" and national staff member for the john kerry presidential campaign. also with us, amanda carpenter reporter and blogger for t"the washington times". amanda, you first. krugman says the stimulus helps. your view? >> i think he's making statement that's are very hard to quantify. underneath all his rhetoric about the great depression is his basic argument that because the economy hasn't -- stopped contracting as fast, that is somehow recovery. i don't think it s it's not even clear we're bottoming out or stabilizing. so the --

>> amanda, he's not saying we're in a recovery. he said the stimulus prevented a second great depression. >> right. but what i'm saying is that the premises, because things aren't getting as bad as fast as they were, that somehow things are better. and a lot of other people are taking that as a sign of recovery. i think they're being -- not -- they're going way too fast about that. unemployment is still up. we've taken a massive gamble, a $787 billion. and we're not on our way to recovery yet. i mean we were promised three million jobs to create that and it hasn't happened. >> all right, your view? >> i do think that there are different ways to measure this. are we talking about avoiding bad things or creating a great economy i don't think anyone is seriously arguing that somehow the economy is great. we have 9.4% unemployment. if you are one of those people, that's terrible. i do think krugman who knows a lot more about economics than i do is making argument we have heard from several experts in this field which is deregulation

with a failure. and the bush policies basically said hands off the market. let people run wild. the sec is not going to be involved and we're not going to have government as a strong engine of the economy. we tried. that it failed. it's how we got into the mess. we have seen a massive shift here. yet, we have government not just getting out of the way but playing a role and trying to have more regulation. i think obviously we have to learn from this whole record and see that, yeah, you need the government in the mix even if we don't get a great economy out of it. we do stave off the type of problems associated with a great depression. >> amanda, you have some noting that conservatives out there are not slamming the bailout of the banks because it did work. and that's a story line that perhaps they cannot capitalize on. but, you know, you followed the news. i mean there was a point where people literally thought we were going to wake up and god forbid have lines of people trying to get soup and bread. that we were full on our way if something wasn't done immediately to this second great depression we're not hearing

that. so whether we're in a recovery, as you said, the numbers can be looked at a number of ways, but we're not headed to this cliff that was the second depression and great depression. so what is behind that? >> i think there is a good deal of fear monday gering that went on in saying that a great depression is coming. >> from both sides? >> yes. i think john mccain got pressured to go in and us is spain the campaign. he others wi would not have taken. people are saying we're going to go into a greet depression. and it's not clear that all this action saved us or this prolonging of this would have happened. >> i agree with amanda there was fear mongering. i don't think either party looked great. but there is something we have to take home as a lesson here which is you do need the government patrolling, protecting consumers, protecting investors. if you don't have that, you have worse problems. i think it's concerning that they're not reacting to. this they're just rooting to

lecturists about how he hasn't sparked a big enough recovery instead of changing the philosophies that failed underlying economic philosophies that failed us. >> thank you both very much. tamron, this gets right to the heart of the debate. do you believe in stimulating the economy through cutting taxes or do you believe that the government is the only one that can essentially make sure that money gets in the system, in this case the government made sure money got into the system and by all accounts it certainly averted what a lot of people were fearing. >> i think that's what ari was pointing out, what story line do you choose to follow. we're still in a recovery but when you flat out ask was a second depression avoided, what was the answer? i think people will say, yes, it was. >> especially with the market up like 3,000 points. >> exactly. remember the days when they were tracking the market with how many days obama had been in office. whatever. up next though, "crossing the line." why did house speaker nancy pelosi call some town hall protesters un-american? did she go too far with that one? and later in the show,

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welcome back. is this crossing the line? over the weekend, i can't tell you how many people wanted to share their thoughts with me about the tone of these town hall meetings across the country. i heard it on facebook, twitter, and even face-to-face. >> we ain't going to do anything. >> why don't you go home? >> why don't you go home? >> sit down. >> how dare you! how dare you! >> i had people asking are these real protests? are the people really being used? when are we going to talk about the real issue of reform and not what some are calling side show and distractions?

those are some of the questions people were asking out there. but in this morning's "usa today" did two democratic leaders go too far in trying to categorize what we're watching. in an op-ed from house speaker nancy pelosi and steny how -- hoyer they write these disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not to just of different point thes of views. but it's this line that's raising a few questions, this line. pelosi and houier say, quote, drowning out opposing views is simply un-american. it's that line that a lot of people are concerned about. politico asks the question is calling the protesters at your event un-american the best political packet?

they also writ america is closer than ever this century's deferred goal but can the goal be reached without using tactics used by conservatives when protester challenged the war in iraq. when does the un-american name-calling example start to cross the line in dissension or disrupti disruption? whatever you choose to call it, but un-american? also, an update already on this store. john boehner released this statement about the un-american remark. he says each public forum should give every participant the opportunity to express their views, but to label americans who are expressing vocal opposition to the democrats' plan un-american, he says that's outrageous and reprehensible. now republicans have faced criticism for the same thing. they took heat for saying those against the war in iraq were un-american. we know that. so has the speaker of the house crossed the line here? you tell me. let us know what you think,

twitter.msnbc.com. it's almost 4:00 on the east coast. we're just getting started. we'll have a lot more on those health care town brawls and how the obama administration plans to fight back. nbc news political director chuck todd will join us live at the top of the hour. also, the latest on this police chase and horrific accident in california that left five kids dead. could this have been avoided? plus a live update from the ntsb on that plane/chopper collision over new york's hudson river. you're watching "the big picture" on msnbc. ♪ and as you can see it kinda bites! ♪ ♪ so sing the lyrics with me: ♪ when your debt goes up your score goes down ♪ ♪ when you pay a little off it goes the other way 'round ♪ ♪ it's just the same for everybody, every boy and girl ♪ ♪ the credit roller coaster makes you wanna hurl ♪ ♪ so throw your hands in the air, and wave 'em around ♪ ♪ like a wanna-be frat boy trying to get down ♪ ♪ then bring 'em right back to where your laptop's at... ♪ ♪ log on to free credit report dot com - stat! ♪