echo chamber that allows someone like rick santorum to think he could be elected president of the united states. late period elvis was more grounded in reality than this guy. i've made a short series of things that are more likely to happen than rick santorum getting elected president. the movie g.i. joe sweeps the independent spirit award. steve bartman is elected mayor of chicago. >> very good. >> chompsky is added to the cast of gossip girl and a sex tape surfaces featuring rush limbaugh and glenn beck and a sex doll with ronald reagan's face on the front. actually i'm sorry. that should be the things that have happened. >> santorum is downplaying the iowa visit but says your voice becomes more amplified. sounds like a message from thomas edison. the recording device -- your voice becomes more amplified in a place like iowa or new hampshire. is that the lesson for the republicans? don't change the message. just turn it up to 11. >> don't under estimate the

power of sheer volume, keith. the town hall protests have proved anything, in fact you don't need to say anything, just sheer noise. a bit of a display. in a short sentence describe to me the public option. >> an alternative to the -- >> see how effective that is, keith? >> the talking stain commercial comes to mind. santorum and 2012, all the other possibilities seem to have come back to the pack for various reasons. at this point, if the republicans had to nominate somebody today for 2012, who would tobacco and you can't pick paula abdul. >> okay. well, judging by the attendance of the sort of right weaning people at the town hall protests i think maybe angela landsbury but that might reawaken the whole birther movement. >> she is really very cool. comedian christian finnegan also very cool. thank you for your time. >> thanks. happy anniversary to my wife. >> that'll be $20. that's "countdown" for this the 2,295th day since the previous president declared mission accomplished in iraq.

go forth and spread beauty and light. now with her guest dr. warren hern ladies and gentlemen here is rachel maddow. good evening. >> good evening. thank you very much for that and thank aut home for staying with us for the next hour. on july 27th, two and a half weeks ago democratic congressman frank cratovil was hanged in effigy outside his congressional office in maryland. the staged lynching, the well tied noose and all was gleefully staged by an antihealth care reform protestor. later that week on august 1st the democratic congressman from texas held a town hall event at a grocery store in austin to talk about health care reform. and antihealth care reform protestor there greeted him with a mock marble tombstone engraved with the congressman's name on it. two days after that on august 3rd democratic congressman brad miller of north carolina reported to the capitol hill police that he had received

death threats over his support for health care reform. one antihealth care reform protestor called his d.c. office and told a staffer, quote, miller could lose his life over this. the very next day on august 4th the idea of a democratic congressman being killed because he supported health care reform became a punch line for republican congressman todd aiken of missouri. >> people in washington, d.c. have come back to their districts and had town hall meetings and they almost got lynched. >> that same day democratic senator chris dodd, who had just announced days earlier that he has prostate cancer, had this screamed at him by an antihealth care reform protestor outside one of his town hall events. >> barack obama clearly says, all you should do is take a pain killer. how come we don't just give

chris dodd pain killers? like a handful of them at a time? he can wash it down with ted kennedy's whiskey. >> two days late other than august 6th the fox news anchor glenn beck on national television turns the threat of a political assassination into the acting out of a political assassination when he and one of his staffers wearing a nancy pelosi mask role played what it would be like for glenn beck to poison the speaker of the house of representatives. >> i just wanted to -- you going to drink your wine? are you blind? do those eyes not work? i want you to drink it now. drink it. drink it. drink it. i really just wanted to thank you for having me over to wine country. you know, to be invited i thought i had to be a major democratic donor, long-time friend of yours, which i'm not. by the way, i put poison in your -- no. >> after that on august 7th

there were more death threats. congressman baird of washington reports his office received this fax with an image of president obama with a communist hammer and sickle symbol paint owned his forehead and the message, death to all marxists, foreign and domestic written underneath. the day after that on august 8th antihealth reform protestors started turning up to democratic town hall events while armed. in arizona, a gun is dropped during a meet and greet with democratic congressman giffords. the same day a man with a concealed gun is escorted out of an event held by democratic congressman steve coen of tennessee. yesterday the staff of democratic congressman david scott arrived at their georgia office to find a four-foot swastika painted across the sign for their office. congressman scott says he was also sent an obama death threat fax similar to the one sent to brian baird's office only this one also addresses congressman scott himself and uses the "n" word. also yesterday democratic

congressman dennis moore of kansas reports that he's received two death threats over the last ten days. one he describes as a phone call into one of his congressional offices. the other is a threat he says he does notd fe feel comfortable discussing with the media. also yesterday a town hall event featuring president obama himself in new hampshire. among the antireform protestors outside was a man who stood outside with a loaded hand gun strapped to his leg. he was holding a sign at the time that read, quote, it's a time -- it is time excuse me to water the tree of liberty. a reference to thomas jefferson's famous words the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. as we noted last night just for context when timothy mcveigh was arrested after the oklahoma city bombing in 1995 he was wearing a t-shirt that had on the front of it a picture of assassinated president abraham lincoln with

the words sic semper tyrannis the words shouted by lincoln's assassin after he shotd him. on the back of mcveigh's t-shirt were the same words as were on the sign yesterday. it's what he picked out special to be wearing when he got his mug shot taken for blowing up a federal building and killing 168 americans. at the same event for president obama in portsmouth, new hampshire yesterday a 62-year-old man named richard terry young was arrested after sneaking past security officials and into portsmouth high school just a few hours before president obama was due to arrive. mr. young was allegedly carrying a knife when security officers found him and when they got a warrant and searched his pickup truck they found a 38 caliber semiautomatic pistol hidden inside a bag in his truck with a round in the chamber. today at a town hall event for democratic senator ben cardin of maryland "the hill" newspaper

reports that one antihealth reform protestor stood outside the town hall, quote, with a small, handwritten sign, cardboard sign that read, quote, death to obama. the forces against health care reform are the same forces that have always been against health care reform. corporate interests that profit from the way things are now and the politicians who support those corporate interests. health care is a multitrillion dollar industry and special interests want to protect what they've got. that is common knowledge. that is politics as usual. what is not politics as usual is that opponents of health care reform have chosen to fight at this time with force and with threats of force. not just fringe talk show hosts but members of congress telling their constituents that barack obama is like hitler. members of the united states senate telling their constituents that they are right to be afraid. that health care reform really is a plot to kill the elderly. corporate funded conservative pr operations promoting those lines

of attack and then telling their activists to go put the fear of god into members of congress. are we now operating in a political environment which is not just politics as usual, which is not just a rowdy debate? has enough kerosene been poured on the flames that the possibility of violence, even assassination, is being port deposited as a real political tactic in the united states? it's not a rhetorical question. it's not even a question about rhetoric. because there are people in this country, people in the health care field, in fact, who have faced the actual threat of assassination as a political tactic. two and a half months ago kansas abortion provider dr. george tiller was assassinated and the man who is charged in the case purportedly believes the assassinations were justified because of his own beliefs about abortion. that belief in justified political violence was cultivated by the extreme antiabortion movement that scott rohder is known to have extensive contact with before dr. tiller's death.

at the antihealth reform protestors flirt with the same ex-halation of violence that echo in the extreme antiabortion movement in this country. it is worth remembering that the possibility of american politics turning to violence and terrorism at the fringe is not all theoretical. joining us now is dr. warren hern, director of the boulder abortion clinic in colorado. he is one of the few remaining doctors in this country who perform late abortions and he has lived for decades now under the threat of assassination. dr. hern, thanks for joining us tonight. >> thank you for inviting me, rachel. >> doctors who perform abortions have faced the real threat of violence and assassination for many years now. do you see any parallels between the sort of rhetoric and threat we're seeing now against health care reform and the character of the threats that you have faced for years? >> yes, i do. i think that this is very

frightening. i'm alarmed by the kind of treatment these mobs are giving to members of congress and the encouragement they're getting from important political leaders like sarah palin and others. the -- we began seeing aggressive rhetoric and very violent rhetoric coming from the antiabortion people even in the '60s and the early '70s that had to do with even things like birth control and family planning. i received some of these threats in 1970-1971 when i was working with the family planning program in washington, d.c. in 1973 when i helped start the first nonprofit abortion clinic in colorado i started getting obscene death threats in the middle of the night. the antiabortion violence began in the '70s and picked up a lot of steam. there was a time when people

could debate this subject, which is obviously very controversial, and people have different opinions, and the debates were usually rather civil, but the antiabortion people began to be more aggressive, more harsh in their rhetoric, and more aggressive in their tactics and began using violence against property against doctors' offices and clinics and it was obviously a trend in the wrong direction. and in the '80s we saw the increasing threats on people, among women who were seeking services and upon doctors. all of my colleagues who provide abortion services have received countless death threats over the decades and the assassination of dr. gunn in 1993, the attempted assassination of dr. tiller in 1993 and the other doctors

illustrates the antiabortion movement is the shock troops for the radical right, the radical political right, the radical religious right in this country and i think we can look at what the antiabortion movement has done and turned to and see that this is the trend that we are in. they have -- the antiabortion movement decided more than 15 years ago to use political assassination as a tactic, as a method of not only political expression but a way of organizing their followers and getting support and that's what they've been doing. they've been assassinating doctors and the question i have pointed out when they get through assassinating abortion doctors, who's next? >> dr. hern, in both the antihealth reform movement that we see now and in the extreme antiabortion movement or in the antiabortion movement even more broadly, of course the large majority of protestors and even people whofl strongly about the issue are peaceful. but there is a very important

part of the antiabortion movement that is not peaceful and i wonder if you see violent rhetoric especially the use of nazi imagery, the allegation that people are nazis or like hitler, is that an important bridge from protest into actual danger, into actual violence? >> well, it even starts before that. the use of the term abortionist for example to stigmatize doctors, the use of the term pro life by people who are killing doctors, all the other rhetoric associated with the antiabortion movement is prelude to the violent actions people feel justified in taking and feel empowered by this rhetoric. and the -- it's very clear there's ban preen a progression violence increasingly toward individuals. this is one of the frightening trends so we have to be very concerned because the violence, the aggressive rhetoric action or statements lead to more

violent action and to assassination. the antiabortion movement and the rest of the radical political and religious right is fundamentally opposed to the basic premises of american society. they don't accept the rule of law. they don't want debate. they don't want discussion. they don't want reason. they don't want moderate discussion. they want totalitarian, theocratic society and are willing to use violence to get it. that's one of the things we're seeing. the mob rule that's going on in some of the congress -- members of congress town meetings is a prelude to that kind of violence and disruption and it's the antithesis of the democratic process. >> we don't have to imagine it. we have seen how it works out in the antiabortion movement. dr. warren hern director of the boulder abortion clinic, a man appearing on television with us in a way that takes considerable bravery given the threats to you. thank you very much for your time tonight, sir. good luck to you.

>> thank you, rachel. coming up, a republican u.s. senator who got a shout out from the president just yesterday about how reasonable he's being in the whole health care debate. this morning told his own constituents that they ought to be afraid. that health care reform really is a secret plot to kill old people. this is why the word "bipartisan" is now spelled m-y-t-h. stay with us. insurance. you're good. thanks. so is our bike insurance. all the coverage you need at a great price. hold on, cowboy. cool. i'm not done -- for less than a dollar a month, you also get 24/7 roadside assistance. ght on. yeah, vroom-vroom! sounds like you ran a 500. more like a 900 v-twin. excuse me. well, you're excused. the right insurance for your ride. w, that's progressive. call or click today. but i've still got room for the internet. with my new netbo from at&t. with its built-in 3g network,

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remember the birthers from

way back in the olden days like earlier this week? the people who believed that president obama is secretly foreign and therefore secretly not really president? the birthers are starting to look positively cool, calm, and collected when you compare them to the deathers. the people who maintain that health care reform is a secret plot to kill old people. this is a theory that was started by betsy mccaughey, the director of a medical device company called cantelle medical corp and also a former director of a biotech company called genta and a senior fellow at the hudson institute, a conservative think tank funded by some of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the country. betty mccaughey is the person who decided to tell people that the provision in the house bill that says medicare will cover it if you want to get a living will, if you want to tell your doctor what you want to happen at the end of your life, she's the one who decided to tell people that provision is actually totally the opposite of what it is. a provision that says you decide what you want to happen to you

has been termed by betsy mccaughey and everybody who has repeated her life since then into exactly the opposite of what it really is. kind of wacky, right? i know. but never mind the fact it's totally made up. it's really, really working for the antihealth reform folks. >> it does want to kill people like myself. i'm 73. i'm one of those throw aways we've heard so much about. >> a death sentence for us old folks. >> this bill was passed two years later. would my wife be alive today or would obama have told thoer take a pain pill? >> some panel telling me i cannot have health care because i'm 73 years old and i'm not worth anything anymore and i resent that. >> as you may have noticed in that footage the town hall deathers allot of them are senior citizens, senior citizens who have had the bejesus scared out of them by antihealth reform special interests like the health care executive who

started this lie in the first place. now, a loft town hall deathers operating from well-stoeked fea and being fed misinformation can be understood as victims of a diabolical disinformation campaign designed to prey on them and use them. but then there's this guy. >> there is some fear because of the house bill and there's counseling for end of life. >> that's it. >> and from that standpoint you have every right to fear. you shouldn't have counseling at the end of life. you ought to have counseling 20 years before you're going to die. we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> that's not some random, misinformed senior being taken advantage of by the special interests. that was actually the senior senator from the state of iowa, the senior republican on the committee considering health reform in the senate. that was republican senator

chuck grassley of iowa. and this isn't the first time that senator grassley has shown real class with a "k" on the issue of health care. >> i've been told that the brain tumor that senator kennedy has because he's 77 years old would not be treated the way it's treated in the united states. in other words, he would not get the care that he gets here because of his age. >> i've been told that. so i'm repeating it. haven't looked into checking it out. for example by reading the bill that i'm responsible for passing or not. but i've been told, little birdie told me, here you go. here's what the bird said. yesterday's presidential town hall in new hampshire, president obama praised senator grassley as one of his, quote, republican friends on capitol hill who is sincerely trying to figure out if they can find a health care bill that works. republican sincere friends like

charles grassley. who do you think president obama counts as his political enemy? joining us now is the democratic candidate who is hoping to unseat senator grassley next year. he's running for the u.s. senate in iowa. thank you very much for joining us. >> thank you, rachel. >> honestly, i am not in the habit of bringing on politicians' competitors to assess how those politicians are doing because there is not enough suspense about what you will say but i wanted to ask you tonight about winterset, iowa where senator grassley this morning made these comments that people ought to be afraid, that health care really is a plot to kill old people. he thinks that line will help him there in winterset, iowa. do you understand why he thinks that? >> well, it's outrageous that he said it, first of all. but i think what senator grassley is doing is he's creating a strategy to walk away from the negotiations. he realizes that there is no compromise and that he has

played this string for as long as he can. he's destabilizing his own base, even though he is not giving away anything in terms of those negotiations. he has to walk back to his own base and so he sees this group of people mouthing fairly outrageous things and the senator in the past has not been adverse to mouthing outrageous things himself. but i think this is the turning point where the negotiations are broken and he goes back to the fold where he almost always is. it gives him a cover so that when the elections roll around next year, he can present himself as a moderate but his history has been to vote with the hard core right republicans almost exclusively. >> he's not doing much for his moderate image by telling seniors in iowa that they have reason to be afraid and that

this is a secret plot to kill them. aarp is now launching a campaign to try to undermine this rumor to try to clear the air and make it clear to america's senior citizens that this is not what health care reform is about and that they're being used when people are trying to scare them about this. are seniors organized in such a way in iowa that they are likely to, when they learn the truth about this, and i think they probably widely will, that they'll be angry with senator grassley for having done this? >> i think they will. there is a well organized group of health care advocates amongst the elderly. i've seen them in the hundreds at other health care forums that have been in different parts of the state before this thing blew up the way it did. in terms of this thing about pulling the plug on grandmother, if you remember that particular amendment came from a republican senator in georgia, who is probably not wanting to pull the plug on granny.

i lost a wife to cancer about four years ago and i can remember receiving end of life counseling as to how things were going to play out, what the choices were. it was extremely valuable. i think end of life counseling is actually more for the living than it is to those that are ready to pass on. it's something that is done today. it's done sometimes with the insurance companies, sometimes with charitable institutions, but it is nothing new. >> bob krause, democratic candidate hoping to unseat senator grassley of iowa when he runs for re-election next year. i will tell you that i can't see it but i've just been advised we have a technical problem which means you can only see half of me and half of you. let us both pray they haven't mixed our two halves together for both of our reputations, right? mr. krause, thanks very much for joining us. all right.

coming up, yesterday we uncovered the surprising truth that might be at the heart of the right wing obama is secretly foreign conspiracy theory. it turns out that there is surprising overlap among people who don't believe president obama was born in the u.s. and people who don't believe the united states includes a state that is called hawaii. tonight we have a great excuse to put an exclamation point on that story, plus there's huge news about operation iraqi baseball coming up. [ engine revving ]

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there. we are checking his time card. that is all coming up. but first, it's time for a few holy mackerel stories in today's news. in a moving, subdued ceremony today at the white house, president obama paid tribute to the 16 recipients of this year's medal of freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor. recipients included actor sidney portier the first african-american to win the best actor academy award. also antiapartheid activist desmond tutu and also sandra day o'connor and a man quite surprisingly and unwillingly sucked into the national fake debate about health care reform, physicist stephen hawking who

has als or lou gehrig's disease. on friday, a publication called "investors business daily" ran an editorial against health reform that promoted the made up right wing talking point that health care reform is secretly a plot to kill old people. and then they got truly inspired saying, quote, people such as stephen hawking wouldn't have a chance in the uk where the national health service would say the life of this brilliant man because of his physical handicaps is essentially worthless. that's right. in the uk, see, stephen hawking wouldn't have a chance. the british health care system in which everyone is guaranteed care, that would totally have destroyed him. stephen hawking is british. stephen hawking is from britain. that is where the british national health service is. professor hawking, himself, responded to this tremendous avalanche today by telling "the

guardian" newspaper, quote, i wouldn't be here today if it were not for the nhs. i have received a large amount of high quality treatment without which i would not have survived. if you want to follow more reactions from real british people to the american right wing trying to make out the british national health service as if it is the effigy of evil and hated by the people who benefit from it, you can follow the ridiculous discussion on twitter by searching for the hash tag, we love the nhs. not kidding. try it. very amusing. next up on the bizarre health debate circuit the republican senator attended a town hall event in his ohio district yesterday and there he very responsibly urged his audience to be civil. >> that's why we're having this forum. i would just indicate that nobody shouted you down and i would appreciate it that nobody shouts anybody down. we're here to listen to people. it needs to be done in a

respectful way. yelling at somebody we don't agree with, you're not going to convince someone. >> a call for civility from the congressman. that's awesome. his follow through? not that awesome. >> you're really not going to vote for this are you? >> i don't know. >> oh, come on now. that's why it was so civil in here. >> do you want an answer to my question? >> yeah. you're not really going to vote for this are you? >> i will not vote for hr 3200 in its present form but we're not done yet. >> air not voting for health care under any form are you? >> that is a [ bleep ] question. >> really? everyone knows you're not going to vote for it. that's why it was so civil in here. >> in case you were adding up all the irony to see if the story exceeds your recommended daily irony content, for the record that was the followup to a call for civility from a congressman named latourrete who chose as a setting for his spewing expletives to his

constituents the ohio town that is named sugaring falls. again, not kidding. and finally, we have a correction to make. for something that i said right, i said correctly on last night's show but for which we posted at least one and i think maybe even two wrong visuals. public policy polling interviewed north carolina voters between august 4th and august 10th. respondents were asked whether or not they believed president obama was born in the united states. 46% said they didn't know or they weren't sure. 46%. and among republicans in north carolina, it was worse. 76% of north carolina republicans said they didn't know or were not sure that obama was born in the u.s. so the headline here? more than 3/4 of north carolina republicans say that barack obama might be secretly foreign. therefore, might secretly not really be president. now, why does a headline like that from a specific poll about a specific state make national news? well i'm glad you asked.

it's because the people taking this poll were such geniuses that they thought to ask the perfect followup question. since the president was born in hawaii, after asking people whether or not they thought he was born in the u.s., they next asked whether or not these folks know that the united states actually includes a place called hawaii. are you aware that hawaii is a u.s. state? when asked if hawaii is part of the u.s., 12% of self-identified conservatives in north carolina said no or they're not sure. this story, this poll result is true. what i said last night was right. we just posted the wrong thing on the screen. and you know what? i'm almost happy we screwed it up just so i could have the chance to say it all over again. 12% of north carolina's self-identified conservatives don't believe in hawaii. who's going to be the twoun breone to break it to them? ♪ well i was shopping for a new car, ♪

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earlier this week we learned that attorney general eric holter is still seriously considering torture prosecutions but according to "the l.a.

times" he is only considering them in the case of people who departed from the bush administration approved torture program. so people like john yu now world famous for helping to legally justify the use of torture are apparently in the clear when it comes to what is being considered by the new attorney general at least for now. as the contours of the potential prosecution come into clearer focus there is some fresh news about the men who designed the actual torture at the heart of the torture program. they are bruce jetson and jim mitchell. today in "the new york times" they published the first half of a two-part series on the history of the torture program "the times" honing in on these two psychologists who cree atded the torture protocol for post 9/11 prisoners and apparently were working as contractors for the cia and made millions of dollars for themselves in the process. among these sensational revelations in today's report, neither had ever conducted a real interrogation prior to

creating and overseeing the bush administration program. neither jessen or mitchell had any particular knowledge of al qaeda. neither jessen or mitchell spoke arabic or any of the other foreign languages that might be spoken by the subjects of interrogation nor did either man possess expertise on the culture from which these subjects would be coming. and neither jessen nor mitchell had ever done any relevant scholarship in the field. dr. jim mitchell's doctoral work was to compare the effectiveness of diet and exercise to combat hypertension and dr. jessen followed family sculpting a therapy technique where patients arrange family members to physically represent their emotional relationships. these are the men the bush administration chose to design and implement the little shop of horrors interrogation methods that made the united states of america a practitioner of torture about which we are still wondering whether anybody will be held to account.

joining us now is the former master instructor and chief of training at the navy's survival evasion resistance and escape school. mr. nance is now a consultant on counterterrorism and terrorism intelligence for the u.s. government. malcolm, thank you so much for coming back on the show. >> good to be here, rachel. >> one part of these men's resumes that is related in some way to interrogation is they were formerly psychologists at the s.e.a.r.s. school. did you know them during your time as an instructor? >> well, i met them at the s.e.a.r. conferences we had every year in spokane, washington and they were pretty well known within the community because they were the chief psychologists at joint personnel recovery agency so all the s.e.a.r. staff at the school knew who they were. >> what is the job description? what were these guys responsible for? >> well, there are two different worlds with relation to that. jpra being the parent agency and the executive agency of the sear

program, they developed and designed training and curriculum and standards based on knowledge which was collected in various hostage takings and prisoner of war situations. however, the staff psychologists at the s.e.a.r. schools themselves were there really for stress management and the mental health of the staff and students who went through the program. >> and do we know which type of -- which one of those categories mitchell and jessen would have fallen into? they would have been the former, right? >> yeah. i think they would have been the former. they were mainly there to help develop the curriculum, the standards based on the psychological profiles of victims and the entire body of work that we had within the s.e.a.r. community on the behaviors of detainees in captivity. >> it seems like the important thing here is something you and i have discussed before about torture and about what happened in interrogation practice in the u.s. after 9/11.

as you have explained before, s.e.a.r. techniques are essentially reverse engineered from techniques that were used against american p.o.w.s to get false confessions out of americans. how does that translate into interrogation expertise for these two men? they were ultimately hired to put together an interrogation program even though they had never actually done one themselves. >> well, that's where we're having a bit of difficulty. you had interrogation experts at joint personnel recovery agency like colonel steve kleinman who was there at the same time. he is a trained interrogator, actually had operational experience in carrying out interrogations. however, s.e.a.r. expertise with regards to interrogations is all done in a mock environment. and what it is is really designed to make sure that students meet a certain standard when they're going through a stress and duress simulation. so what they were doing may have some carryover but only in the sense that they would have

carryover in simulating the enemies who were carrying out -- who were carrying out all of these terrible, terrible confession and coercion regimes and techniques on former u.s. prisoners and that's the basis of all of our information. they are regimes which were carried out by the communists, the fascist nazis, and applied against u.s. citizens, service members, and that body of knowledge came to the s.e.a.r. community and that is what was being simulated. >> one of the other things that i think is a term that gets bandied around by civilians who don't have experience when we talk about not only the politics of interrogation but the utility, this idea of somebody being broken, the subject of an interrogation being a broken person. and that was described by political actors about the interrogation techniques as sort of the goal, about what the idea was to -- what the object was of

what we wanted to be doing to al qaeda prisoners. does breaking a person in interrogation terms make sense if what you're trying to do is get real information out of them? >> that's a really key point you're hitting on here. the process of breaking, quote-unquote, a prisoner is not something interrogators do. they really don't want to break you down as a human being and take away all of your ability to think and reason and give a coherent answer. that was something that was developed by hostile regimes who saw that a confession is what they wanted out of you. they didn't care whether you had done it or not. a confession is what they needed and to get that confession what they would do is break you physically, psychologically, and mentally so you could get into a state of learned helplessness and you would comply no matter what they would say. now, this killed hundreds if not thousands of american service members in korea, world war ii, and vietnam. and this is not something which

any real interrogator would want to try because of course at that point you are not getting information. you are just getting compliance. and any idiot can comply and that makes no intelligence whatsoever. >> and it's that which apparently these two psychologists had experience in, and they didn't have experience in real interrogation yet they were called on to put this interrogation program together. malcolm nance, former chief of training at the s.e.a.r.s. school, invaluable insight. thank you so much for joining us. >> my pleasure. coming up on "countdown" keith olbermann asks former new mexico u.s. attorney david iglesius about karl rove's role in firing him. next on this show an update on "the rachel maddow show's" iraqi baseball. my mother made the best toffee in the world. it's delicious.

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the toronto mru jays won today 4-3. but not all of the basketball news delivered a dishaertenning blow to the humble squad from a foreign country. quite the opposite actually. on july 13th, mcclatchy newspapers and then because of their article subsequently this show, reported that the iraqi national baseball team barely had enough equipment to exist. they had one aluminum softball

bat, shared used gloves, no cleats, no uniforms at all. neither mcclatchy nor we intended that reporting to be a call for donations. but spontaneously and overwhelmingly, offers to help out the team flooded into our offices from around the country. as if we were not weepy enough already about sports in our sappy little office, this was a genuinely awe-inspiring, make you weepy, sports-inspired episode of american all truism. and we did not ask for it. it just happened. it's been 30 days since our iraqi report of baseball gear deficit and in the meantime three companies committed and followed through on their offers to help. ctg athletics provided mitts, cleats and batting gloves for the team's players. the mcclatchy baghdad bureau helped us get the right shoe sizes so ctg could send the

right sized cleats. then jerry cohen from seattle stepped up and offered to make special lightweight uniforms for the team because flannel in desert weather doesn't really mix. the uniforms are blue, which is what the team wanted, and the awesomely blue unis are ready and ready to be shipped out momentarily. with so many of the necessities covered, i just threw in batting helmets and a bunch of baseballs and an official rule book just in case they're nerds like me. and a company called star usa shipping in ohio sprung for the seriously considerable expense and hassle of getting the stuff over to baghdad. mcclatchy's baghdad staff, again, helped us out with staying in touch with the team and making sure they got everything. so, because of all of this totally self-interested, self-disinterested altruism and efficiency and generosity and awesomeness, today in baghdad, baseball. wow. the goods so generously offered by you and put up by krectg and

star usa and mcclatchy were delivered to the iraqi baseball team could only be described as an ironic, sue me if it's funny and performance-enhancing drugs and contracts of how totally awesome baseball really is. >> i would not be exaggerating if i say that. we were promised 40 to 50 times that we would get up and that our voices will be heard. but this is the first time that someone would follow through with what they promised. this game came here in 2004 after the former regime fell. this game was prohibited by the state. it did not allow such game. and when the regime fell, we started watching videos of the game and see baseball stadium. we love the game, and many iraqis love this. but we could not play it in the past as it was not allowed. when we were kids, we used to

play a game a bit similar to baseball. we used a piece of wood similar to the bat and instead of a ball, we had a tiny piece of wood. so you would throw it and then hit it with the bat. all iraqis in general loved that game. and baseball's similar to that. when we play baseball, people come to watch. we like it. and ask if they can play with us. they ask to join the team or play with us. we are so happy with all of these considerations. we would like to thank all of those who have helped and supported us. we have great ambitions for the future. and god willing, we will enhance our skills. we would like to thank not just nbc but all of those who gave the nation, even those who gave moral support. >> so, yeah, thanks to everyone who gave not only donations but moral support. huge thanks, again, to cpg

athletics in the bronx, ebits field flannel in seattle, start usa in ohio and to the folks at mcclatchy and nbc in baghdad, who made today happen. i should also mention that ebits field is as of right now offering the iraqi national team jerseys for purchase at their website and 10% of the proceeds go to iraq and afghanistan veterans of america. our friends at iava. there's a link to iava and ebits at our show website today. would i put it on but i am too embarrassed. the other big thanks goes to you, our audience, for offering help. it's honestly been a moving experience to hear from you and we heard from people all over the world. as i have said before when reporting this story, we all do still have opportunities to capitalize on that sentiment. what you will also find on our website right now, rachel.msnbc.com are links to charity that's serve the people of iraq. follow through on your baseball-inspired impulse to

help out. go on. go on. go on. finally, one last word to the iraqi national baseball team -- go get 'em! hit it to right. a little bingo out there. unless, of course, you're playing the red sox, in which case, take it easy, guys. don't strain anything. powerful medicines for fast relief of your diarrhea symptoms, so you can get back out there. imodium. get back out there. i just want fewer pills and relief that lasts all day.

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