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we're shopping for car insurance, and our friends sa we should start here. good friends -- we compare our progressive direct rates, apples to apples, against other top companies, to help you get the best price. how do you do that? with a touch of this button. can i try that? [ chuckles ] wow! good luck getting your remote back. it's all right -- i love this channel. shopping less and saving more. now, that's progressive. call or click today. home at last. nearly two decades after his plan was shot down in the first gulf war, the his remains are being returned back to the states. >> we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull

the plug on grandma. >> the politics and fear the right wingers are doubling down on the death panels that don't actually exist. should the democrats forget about the gop and just go it alone on health care? also from friends to frenenemies. cheney and bush. the not so wonder years. i fell in love with one woman i should not have fell in love with. we all get that. everybody's been trying to move on. >> don't cry for him, argentina, and south carolina. >> marc: mark opening up. plus, can he open his mouth again to avoid jail? good afternoon, i'm tamron hall life in new york. the big picture right now, the white house down plays criticism

from a key republican. senator grassley, the ranking member on the finance committee and one of the only three republicans working with democrats on the reform bill. now, he's bringing up the false claim that the president's plan are create so-called death panels. >> in the house bill, there's counseling for end of life and from that standpoint, you have every right to see her. we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> and robert gibbs responded just a short time ago. >> we'll hope to quell the misconceptions that are apparently held by some in the senate about what the bill is and what the bill isn't. but we'll continue to hope that they can make progress. now, whether or not it happens,

i don't know. >> and questions about the so-called death panels are being raised at town halls across the country. you're looking at pictures from pennsylvania where arlen specter is holding a town hall right now. there's bad news for the white house. the protesters are having an impact on the national debate. you can see the lines of people. they don't care how hot it is. according to a new "usa today" gallup poll, 31% of voters say they are more sympathetic to the views and 16 say they are less se sympathet sympathetic. savannah, we heard senator grassley, obviously people know what he was referring to, so why the ginger response from the white house? >> well, they're still trying to

work with senator grassley. there's a continuum. you have boehner saying this is going to lead to euthanasia and then folks at the white house saying this ining this is ridi. what grassley did was something in the middle. at least not pouring cold water on the notion that there's something scary about this voluntary, end of life counseling. he said himself, you have something to fear here and put out a statement saying the fact that this can be misinterpreted is one of the reasons you won't see this end of life counseling in the bill the senate finance committee is working on now. that being said, grassley is still one of the few republicans still at the table. >> and how much of the remark that we heard yesterday from senator grassley were about

political survival? >> well, you know, it's an interesting question. i mean, there he is, facing his constituents. they're concerned. he doesn't want to seem like he doesn't get that. it's not like he likes this house bill. he does not have very fond words for the house bill, which is essentially a bipartisan bill. >> thank you very much. now the bigger picture. at what point should democrats drop their efforts to include republicans in health care reform? president obama has consistently said that he wants to pass a bipartisan bill and tuesday, even gave a shout-out to a couple of republicans negotiating with democrats. >> i think that there are some -- my republican friends on capitol hill, who are severely trying to figure out if they can find a health care bill that works.

chuck grassley of iowa, mike of wyoming. olympia snowe from maine. >> but despite senator grassley's comments yesterday about what's being called a death panel, the white house still wants to get republicans on board and again, listen to how carefully press secretary robert gibbs handled grassley this afternoon. >> i still think there is the possibility of getting bipartisan agreement through the finance committee in order to make progress on a piece of legislation that can pass the senate. >> and when asked specifically about whether grassley was playing rope dope, he said, we'll see. richard, what have democrats gained by trying to work with grassley so far? >> i think president obama generally if you look at the polls, is getting high marks from the public on the stimulus and elsewhere in trying to reach

out on health care particular, when the question is is president obama trying to work with republicans. the public says yes. are the congressional republicans trying to work with democrats? the public says no. president obama did get elected on the flat form of trying to break all the old tension and the public wants that. now, how successful is that like lick likely to be? they won't get a tremendous number republicans, but they'll get enough. do they get grassley at the end of the day? we'll see. >> here's the bottom line. it does seem that in order to get grassley and any republicans, democrats are going to have to give up the public option that progressives say they're going to have. do you go with progressives who say the republicans haven't given up anything but grief. we've got a votes, let's take the public option and jam it

down republicans' throats. or do you back away from that and anger the last, but so be it, get a republican vote. >> to a certain extent, that happened on the stimulus. people on the left thought these tax cuts weren't money well spent. at the end of the day, i think they will anger the left and try to get a deal. >> we're interrupting richard because the -- let's watch. >> as good as it gets. the best and the brightest. >> i know the family likes to stay private and the media respects it. you stay in contact with him somewhat. i'm sure this is a moment of closure. >> all right, jack jacobs joins us now. we were hearing strange voices on the feed. but your thoughts, the first

person killed in the 1991 gulf war. he was shot down. the mystery of course for so many years as to what happened to him and now, every indication was that he was killed shortly after he was short down perhaps on impact and now that we have the remains, they're coming back some 18 years later. your thoughts? >> the first thing is we don't realize how long ago it was. it was 1991. almost 20 years ago and the time just goes by. we've had yet another war in the same region again since then. the other interesting thing that comes to mind is the whole question about whether or not the navy and defense department had done enough to find his remains. at the time that he was shot down, he was flying over 550 miles an hour and that he was probably shot down with an air to air missile from the mig, which meant that the aircraft

was almost instantly destroyed. and the aircraft was thrown way off course and he probably pulled something like six or seven gs when he was struck by the missile. so it's likely he was killed not just on impact, but in the air before the aircraft came down 28,000 feet or so to the desert below. related to that is the whole notion of how easy or difficult it is to find remains in that area. he was shot down over an area north of -- i'm sorry, in the western part of iraq in a trackless waste. it's extremely difficult to find anything there. and it's not surprising that even the best efforts from the defense department using satellites and people on the ground couldn't find his remains. >> what we see this family standing underneath the black

umbrellas clutching the flowers. they've waited for this. wondered all of these years if he could have been alive. his name was skeen scrawled in an iraqi jail. people thought he was being held for those 18 years. speak to the emotion of what we're seeing now. >> well, it's interesting that we don't realize how the emotions wax and wane over time. this enormous grief on the part of family. >> we're seeing his remains right now being carefully lowered from that chartered aircraft. you have the navy personnel standing there as well and his family just a few steps away from there. >> they're going to take the remains around to places he frequented back in the area after it is loaded on to the vehicle. there's this initial burst of

grief, not only among his family, but also among his friends and shipmates. i think they were -- his aircraft was aboard the uss gorge washington when it was at the persian gulf the time of his death. an outpouring of grief. nobody likes to lose a shipmate or family member, and then a long period of time with a lot of contention discussion between his family and friends on the one hand and the defense department on the other, about his status. missing, dead to missing. missing, presumed dead. and finally, kia after all this time. one of the things that occurs as a result of his remains being shipped to them, and i know because i know a lot of people who loved ones were discovered, there's a revisiting of grief from almost 20 years ago. >> friday, the casket will be

taken outside of memorial jackson high school and then the hearse will drive by locations associated with his life. the church he 'tended. he was a sunday schoolteacher at lake shore church. >> you know, jack, i wonder if you can put this in perspective because for a lot of people who are too young to remember the gulf war 18 years ago, can you explain why there's so much attention on scott speicher. i wonder if you can put it in some context. >> i think it's interesting you mentioned those numbers because i think those figures, that's part of the reason why so much attention was paid. don't forget that this was the

first time that we were actively engaged a long time in the middle east. the war was short and extremely violent. he was the first person as far as we know, the first american kia in the war. we had relatively few killed in action in that war. his status changed from time to time. >> let's look again. this is the flag-draped coffin of pilot speicher. for clarification, this, we don't have to tell you what this is. the black object we saw earlier, we were uncertain if those were the actual remains. >> it may be. however, there were -- his remains were found not far away from where some of the aircraft wreckage was located and may be

that that box contained some personal items. >> a young boy who saw the body originally buried as a teenager and later helped, they claim -- >> more than a decade later brought american forces over to the spot where they say tribes men had buried the body. >> we see the family now approaching the coffin there and the roses being placed. >> but you asked david about why this sort of imbalance in interest. one of the reasons is we've gone through a will the of war in the middle east since then and sometimes we get a little -- immune to seeing all this stuff. but the fact to the matter is that he was the first face of wars in the middle east for the

united states. the other thing is that both his mates and family pressed very, very hard for a resolution of what his status was and he's remained in the department of defense's eye for a long, long time. >> the nation obviously watching this. we don't get to see this often. we know the rules have now changed. the appropriateness of showing a body in a coffin, but this is a stark reminder of all those lives. he was the first in that first gulf war, but those people still over there now in heavy fighting in afghanistan and with so much intensity, we know we will see this again. >> the war in afghanistan is heating up dramatically as we send troops over there with the taliban actively defending against our attacks to eliminate them and every day, we have more casualties, so this thing will be repeated again and again i'm

afraid as we try to accomplish our mission. >> and now, they're having a moment of silence.

>> jack, we don't get to see this very often because of restrictions on the return of remains, but i wonder if you can explain if this is the typical return ceremony you would see at dover. for all those years when you weren't allowed to see the ceremony, if it went like this. >> but without the families present and more than one casket. the honors, every single one of those remains as they're honored to scott speicher.

i spoke with a lot of the friends of mine who said it was a bad idea to show all this even if the families of the deceased servicemen wanted it to be shown and i think it's a very honorable ceremony and we should honor those, particularly those young people who sacrificed for all of us and millions of people in other countries who seek freedom. if we've got a minute or two, i want to address one more thing, answer your question. it's very unusual to have somebody who is missing. because of the way we fight our wars today, very few missing. >> thank you very much. you are looking at live pictures of the return of pilot scott speicher after nearly two decades. we'll be right back after the quick break. (announcer) illness doesn't care where you live...

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help he wants the white house to be making determinationings of who lives and who dies, which will read to the regulation of every life in this country. >> welcome back to "the big picture." i'm tamron hall. >> that wi'm david schuster. sarah palin though is going back to standing by some of her claims that the democratic plan will deny care to sick people. here's what she has written now on her facebook page --

but not all republicans agree with that. lisa murkowski, who's also republican says making up things about the health care bill will not help anyone. >> it does us no good to insight fear in people by saying that you know, there's -- end of life provisions, these death -- so quite honestly, i'm so offended at that terminology because it absolutely isn't. >> a lot of people argue the white house has been put on the defensive by this because they're having to explain what is not in the bill as opposed to what's in the bill. the president even addressed the so-called death panel and

allegations. >> the rumor that's been circulating is this idea that somehow the house of representatives voted for death panels that will basically pull the plug on grandma. because we decided that we don't, it's too expensive to let her live anymore. i am not in favor of that. >> so what is in the bill? here's what section 1223 says about what medicare would pay for. it would pay for an explanation by the practitioner of advanced directives. it goes on to say -- it does not say the patient has to listen or follow any of it.

ken vogel for politico, it would seem clearly enough, if they looked at it rationally, if medicare wants to pay for my grandmother to have a consultation, great, because then we don't have to pay for it. how did it get turned into this argument over death panels? >> well, there was just enough of sort of a basis for opponents to hang this idea that there were death panels that it made a great talking point and we're still talking about it even as it appears that the senate finance committee, which is the panel that's going to produce the eventual bill, has no interest in seeing any language close to this in the bill. it has kind of snowballed to the point where it has become a talking point that is no longer based on the facts of what was in the original house bill.

>> the republicans have won on this politically because everyone is talking about what is not in the bill and democrats can't get their message across. >> and that's probably one of the reasons why the senate finance committee is not enamored with having this in provision by stripping in out and saying they have no interest in it. you would think that maybe they would disarm this as a piece of ammunition, but this type of debate is one of the main reasons why the obama administration had set a pre-august recess deadline. >> and let me ask you. we've got this statement from senator grassley saying now that the senate, the bipartisan group dropped the bill entirely because of the way it was misinterpreted. interesting for him to say when he used that language yesterday

used with the word, fear. why would he say that and say we shouldn't have been talking about it? >> it was a little puzzling the way he addressed this issue as his own town hall, but the -- saying that this was not going to be in the final senate bill was a realization that this was not a productive debate. >> but an example of how some are willing to mislead because he had the opportunity to clarify. he was familiar with the facts yesterday. >> certainly. and i don't want to try to get in his head, but there are other opponents who are misleading on this and it's a great effect. it's got hundreds of people going on to the town halls that previously were like libraries and they didn't attract a whole lot of ruk kus debates.

they have succeeded in muddying the waters a little bit and hurting the chances for health care reform. >> thank you. they say in politics, while one side is arguing logic, the other side is arguing passions and from the gut. usually, the gut wins and that's why democrats are so frustrated. republicans have got all the emotion on their side whether it's fair or not. >> a lot of people, even us as journalists, have a hard time getting through and understanding fully, so imagine being a 70-year-old person. you're tuning into some of the dialogue and you get confused and in some cases it appears these people are being taken advantage of. >> or you're tuning into conservative media and you hear this stuff repeated. be sure to watch msnbc tomorrow

at noon eastern for a special edition of the dr. nancy show. you can send your questions or send a video question. up next, dick cheney. is he turning his sights on his old boss? >> new details about the former vice president's upcoming book. and then mark sanford goes it alone. talking about living all by himself in the governor's mansion. 20-30 times a day.

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with a half an hour before the close, the dow jones industrial average is higher by

23 points. nasdaq is up 7. oil prices up 36 cents to settle above $70 a barrel. new jobless claims increased last week. analysts expected the number to drop to 545,000, but ongoing unemployment claims fell. if you're planning to do a lot of flying next month, jet blue has the ticket for you. the deal goes from september 8th, to october 8th, but you must book the pass by august 21th. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. back to msnbc. we're getting fresh video in now of some wildfires in california, not too far from

santa cruz. about 24 people have been ev evacuated in a town called bonny doon. it's a part of highway 1 that not too many travel on. this is about an hour and a half south of san francisco and not too far from the coast. fire officials have evacuated more than 2,000 people and are working to try to contain the fire. we will keep you posted on how this mission goes. south carolina's governor says his political career is dead. >> yes, david, those are his words and this is the latest revelation from him. as ethics investigation may be over several personal trips. this is sanford defending himself on the radio. >> i'm dead politically. i'm not running for another office. i just want to make the most of the 16 months that are remaining in trying to honor where i

started in this thing, which is how do you do, what would make people's lives just a little bit better in south carolina. >> meanwhile, sanford will leave tomorrow for his first u.s. air force reserve duty commitment since his affair. kevin is joining us. if he's politically dead as he put it in his own words, why is he not resigning? >> i think some people on both sides of the aisle that are asking that same question. there's nothing that anyone's taking seriously with you if you have no credibility, why are you staying in the job for another 16 months, especially in a state like south carolina with 12.5% unemployment. i think he's the type of person that doesn't want to go out like this. i think he's also concerned that i don't like the guy that's set

to take over for me if i were to walk away. he trusts himself more than he trusts the lieutenant governor. in our state, you do not pick your running mate and that's a big rivalry. i think he's also trying to accomplish some things. if there's any silver lining to this at all, i think he feels he's been humbled so much at this point, politically, that he has no choice but to work with our south carolina general assembly. so the hope is they can actually get something done this year, this is pretty rare when you combine those two parts. >> another way to look at it is that he just doesn't care in the least. according to the newspaper in south carolina, he would not say on wednesday whether he is in communication with the woman,

his mistress. how are people reacting to that? >> i don't think he's bringing her up to live in the mansion. i don't think governor sanford would disrespect the mansion or his wife or the office any more than he's already done it. i've interviewed him a number of times, he's a beaten man right now, david. he is a guy that at this point, understands and acknowledges any hopes he had politically are gone. you used the sound bite from my program from yesterday. i am dead politically. he knows come 16 months, he's going to fade off into the sunset. maybe he'll end up in argentina with this woman. i don't know. i don't think he wants to hurt jenny any more than he has. i don't think he wants to damage his sons any more. politically, he is just going to be a pinata for the next 16

months. i think people are getting to the point where they will at least accept an apology. >> all right, kevin. thank you very much. thank you. fascinating that kevin said he's willing to be a pinata for the next year and a half. >> usually when people are throwing things at you when you're on the stage, you get off the stage. >> obviously, he's got some kind of plan and we'll see what that is. i'm curious if he thinks this is the end or if he's hoping that better days are to come and he can run again. new details from former vice president dick cheney's forthcoming memoir will reveal his frustration with his old boss. from "the washington post," cheney felt bush stopped taking his advice and according to

post, has been holding conversations with policy experkts, even past colleagues. someone who attended a gathering was that -- in the bigger picture, what kind of relationship did the former president and vice president have? in the past, cheney has expressed contempt for out of office officials who write tell-alls, but reportedly said quote, the statute of lim limitations has expired. after years of praising bush, cheney now says the former president turned out to be more like an ordinary politician in the end. joining us now on the phone is the director for the center of politics in virginia. is it the contrary that he is

narsistic, self-ab and is the ordinary politician? >> you know, where you stand on memoirs depends on where you sit. when you're the target, you're opposed to this. when you're throwing the spears, you're in favor. it's interesting how the perspective has changed and it's going to be a fun read. >> what are we learning about dick cheney in this? >> we're learning that things were not as they appeared. but we had some hints during the second bush term that everything was not rosy between bush and cheney, but things may have deteriorated further than we had imagined. i assume that will be outlined in the book. >> if this is accurate, it sounds like the former vice president is talking to everyone who is listening. but how far is he willing to go?

we saw a lot of push from the former vice president earlier in the year. we have not heard a lot from him lately, but is he really willing to go there regarding the former president? >> it is surprising to me that he would go that far. he was chosen by bush. when cheney ran himself in 1996, he did very, very poorly. he was handed this office by george w. bush. i think that will surprise a lot of bush loyalists. but we'll have to see what he says in the book. sometimes, pthey'll leak information like this and the book ends up being disappointing. >> thanks. we keep hearing from a lot of people who were defenders of dick cheney, that he is still

sore that president bush would not grant a complete pardon to scooter libby. i think the rest of his life is going to be bothered by that. >> that would be one of the most interesting chapters of the book, if he would tell his true perspective, but that the former vice president would be offended that the president was no longer listening to him. it's supposed, i think, go the other way around and is very telling about the power structure as it was perceived during those eight years. >> maybe it never occurred to dick cheney the reason the president wasn't listening to him he didn't like what he was saying. why should executives keep their salaries secret? and the big easy for brad pitt. the movie star talked about the possibility of running for mayor

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ask your doctor if caduet can help you go... for both your goals. in today's "making their case," more outrage over huge bonuses paid to automakers and banks who took billions in taxpayer money. >> for a long time now, there's been too much secrecy in this city. the old rules said that if there was a defensible argument for not disclosing something to the american people, that it should not be disclosed. that is now over. transparency and rule of law will be the touch stones of this

2 presidency. >> despite that promise, the white house is still refusing to release salary details for the top seven companies that received massive bailouts, including the auto industry which received more than $80 billion. is the obama administration dragging its feet? here to make their case, blogger for the american prospect and a blogger for the ink well. sabrina, is this a big deal? >> this is what happens when you get the government involved. you have them determining salaries when in reality, we should have just left these companies to succeed or fail on their own. >> but tim, why not let the american public decide whether these salaries are fair? >> i think we need to have a few more facts on the table.

one, if we let gm fail, we would be out more jobs than we are now. the administration is going to be releasing these numbers. they're going to propose what they want to pay and feinberg's going to look at the numbers and say, this is acceptable, this isn't. so it's not going to be a secret. i think the reason he's doing this is clear. taxpayers have invested in these firms and we have every right to know what our money is being used for. the president has said he wants all of these bailouts to follow commercial principles. they're going to act as much like the free market as they can, but he's also said his goal is to get out of the auto business as soon as he can. so this is only a temporary

factor. >> you don't think the white house is being secretive at all? >> i think i'm more concerned about their secrecy on national security than this. i would think it's fair to argue they should disclose the proposal gm and chrysler are making to kenneth feinberg to see what they're asking for rather than what they get in the end. >> i heard tim say you want transparency on national security more than this, but do you believe when it comes to money, that we would ever have true transparency, especially when talking about bonuses, this conversation has turned. >> right. these are going to be political decisions as opposed to economic ones. what's interesting is that we're talking about, the underlying asumts is that these people are receiving bonuses that are way

too high. >> when we left it up to the wh with the financial crisis. we saw pay totally not linked to performance at all. that's one of the problems that led to the crash in 2008, and that's why we're trying to have new regulations for compensation to say if an executive is going to get paid, they should get paid for making their company work well so you don't have people walking away from dying companies taking hundreds of millions of dollars in bonuses. >> i don't really think these companies should have been bailed out to begin with. i think there are other ways we could have encouraged economic growth. having the government get into the auto business is not one of those ways. >> tim and sabrina, interesting discussion, and thank you very much. we will get into the interest of transparency on things like the pharma deal perhaps tomorrow but we appreciate you coming on. tamron, you can cut it a bunch of different ways. you cana the white house will eventually release these numbers, but there are a lot of things they promised they would

release sooner that they haven't released yet. and so people who think, oh, the obama white house is doing everything they promised, not in the least. >> you touched on that big pharma deal that is said to have happened that the white house didn't give details. "the huffington post" is reporting they received an internal memo indicating there is some deal that was struck that we'll hear more about in the future. >> and also the part -- i think it was president obama who raised the bar. wasn't it president obama who said we're going to broadcast these negotiations on c span so everybody can see whose interests are where. no, that hasn't happened. >> we'll see what happens. just ahead, todays a "crossing the line." david, is it really fair to put a guy behind bars for yawning? yawning? yawning? we're going to explain what happened to this fellow and how many days he spent behind bars.

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welcome back, everyone. in today's "crossing the line" yawning is said to be contagious, but is it really worth jail time? clinton williams was just released today from jail after spending three weeks behind bars for yawning. williams was actually sentenced to six months for making what court documents call a yawn-like sound in a hearing. the yawn happened as williams' cousin, jason mayfield, was being sentenced for drug charges. judge daniel rosack found williams in contempt the court and according to the associated press witnesses disagree whether

his yawn was out of order. a county spokesperson said this was a deliberate attempt on the part of this individual to disrupt the proceedings and shows disrespect to the court. the guy's cousin says that's not what happened. it's his cousin though. early reports indicated the judge wanted an apology from williams before he would actually release him from jail. today no apology, but the judge said this, quote, i just -- make it clear, you were never in custody for yawning. you never were. it was a sound that was offensive to the court. an offensive sound equals three weeks in jail and a six-month sentence? wow. "crossing the line," you tell me. let me know what you think. every time you talked about this story, you were yawning, so to the pokey for you. >> that was in the previous segment, i'm sure. it's almost 4:00 on the east coast and there's a lot more ahead. should president obama still go for republican support on health

care? even if they're talking about death panels that don't exist? some democrats are wondering if the white house is getting duped. also hillary clinton making headlines from halfway around the world. what she said about jeb bush and the 2000 election. and why officials may release the only man in prison for the bombing of pan am 103. this is "the big picture" on msnbc. ic playing ) - ♪ oh! what do you say to a spin around the color wheel? - to paint with primer already mixed in? - ♪ yeah yeah yeah... - test samples instead of can commitments? - ♪ whoo! - what do you say we dip into our wallets less... - ♪ are you feeling it? - ...and grab ahold of the latest tools out there... - ♪ oh! ...so we can quit all that messing around with extra steps - and get busy turning our doing dials up a notch? - ♪ whoo! ♪ oh! more saving. more doing. - that's the power of the home depot. - ♪ yeah yeah yeah.