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this hour on "the big picture," a key republican was part of the bipartisan push for health care reform, and he plays the false grandma card. >> we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> this afternoon the white house refused to criticize grassley directly and pointed to another senator by another gop

senator. >> it does us no good to incite fear in people. >> the obama administration now more interested in avoiding direct conflict with key republicans than in making dramatic health care changes. hillary clinton unplugged. the secretary of state making headlines again for candid remarks overseas. this time it's about bush versus gore. >> in 2000 our presidential election came down to one state where the brother of the man running for president was the governor of the state. so we have our problems, too. >> and why some are now slamming her latest remarks. in detroit a police chase this morning ends in a fireball. a driver tries to escape the cops but crashes. the second police chase turned deadly in less than a week. what's being said about police procedures and public safety. hey, grizzly, get out of my pool, and the other things we thought you should know. the upcoming beer and pop summit you won't forget, and

participants may not remember. all that and more this hour on msnbc. good afternoon, everyone. i'm tamron hall live in new york. hey, david. >> hey, tamron. i'm david shuster live in washington. tamron, today in dramatic fashion the obama white house underscored that bipartisan in health care reform is now the priority even if that means watering down democratic plans, abandoning campaign promises, and not directly confronting the false charges of leading republicans. in our big picture, it all became clear from the soft approach today towards republican senator charles grassley after grassley made a huge false claim about democratic plans. yesterday at a meeting with constituents in iowa, grassley repeated the lie that's been made on the republican frung th fringe. >> in the house bill there's counseling for end of life, and from that standpoint you have every right to fear. we should not have a government program that determines you're

going to pull the plug on grandma. >> but there are no such government programs in any democratic bill. and even grassley's republican colleagues have called the charge false. well, this afternoon faced with the choice of either condemning grassley and signaling a firm approach or giving grassley a pass, the white house chose to forgive and forget. >> we will hope to quell the misconceptions that are apparently held even by some in the senate about what the bill is and what the bill isn't, but we'll continue to hope that they can make progress. whether or not it happens, you know, i don't know. >> president obama has been having weekly discussions with grassley in the hopes he will join democrats and make reform bo bipartisan, but that's leaving the white house on the defensive over what the white house has gained from those efforts. >> seems to be playing

rope-a-dope with the white house, leading you along and then slamming the door. >> well, i guess we'll see about that. >> is grassley playing? the white house approach is increasingly angry. those who supported obama are now demanding he do health care without the republicans. the scare tactics on the right continue a conservative group is now running this ad about the democratic plans. >> seniors may lose their own doctors. the government, not doctors, will decide if older patients are worth the cost. and the cruel joke here is that many of our politicians are designing a health care plan for the country that they don't want to apply to themselves. >> the scare tactics do appear to be affecting people, and the impact is especially dramatic on the fringe. yesterday a man showed up at a health care town hall in maryland with a sign that said kill obama.

and on the other side it said kill michelle and the stupid children. the secret service were notified and that man is now being questioned and is under investigation. for the bigger picture, where does the health debate go from here, especially when you think about some of those signs out there. right now the white house is playing defense trying to counter some of their critics claims they say are false. president obama will be holding two town halls this weekend, one tomorrow in montana and another in colorado saturday. but there's still a few more weeks until congress is back from recess, and there's a lot more time to debate and a lot more opportunities for people to be misinformed. joan walsh is the editor in chief for salon.com. i want to start with senator grassley. he's come out in regards to the comments he made the bipartisan group drop the end of life provision from the proposal even though he brought it up yesterday, he said that people have every right to fear. when you hear signs like david just mentioned, isn't it a great responsibility to make sure you

are always stating the facts, especially when you're an elected official? >> yeah, i would agree with you, tamron. and i know grassley is a conservative, but i don't really consider him part of the bomb-throwing fringe, like sarah palin. >> which is part of the shocking nature of this angle of the story. >> right. he knows better. he knows what's in every bill, and he know that is end of life counseling provision does not have anything to do with doctors deciding who lives or dies. it will give medicare patients the opportunity to have a paid consultation so they can think about those issues like many upper middle class people already do. we have lawyers. we have doctors. we have psychologists who work on these things. many older patients, medicare patients do not. it's really a cruel hoax and even i thought better of chuck grassley. >> what do you think of the white house's response from gibbs today though? >> well, you know, i'm not going to be quite as hard on that as you and david may be. i think they're very much still hoping to get some republican

support. they're not stupid. they see what we see. i think they have to be the ones who are left at the table rather than the ones who leave the table. at least i think that's what they're thinking right now. i don't know how this is going to end up. i am disappointed that obama seems so willing to compromise with people who really have not given him anything at all to work with, and as you guys said, potentially sell out his base on the issue of the public option. that has not happened yet. i have every hope that it won't, but it could. there are very few encouraging signs for progressives right now. >> joan, hope and confidence are two different things. are you confident that the president is not going to sell out his base in exchange for trying to get some centrist republicans and what do you think -- i mean, are you seeing anything, and maybe max baucus is the only person who really knows, but are you seeing the white house, the democrats' position, are they getting anything with this approach of using kid gloves on grassley, being so ginger with him?

>> no, i don't see that they're getting anything, and, no, david, i couldn't describe myselves a confident right now. i'm pretty confused at the turn this has taken. again, when we were all back debating would hillary clinton or barack obama be a better choice for the democrats. one of the strong thins obama had in his favor was that he is a con sill yator. we elected him to try to heal some of the partisan wounds, and yet he's gotten no cooperation from the other side. in fact, you know, we're looking at a situation now that is i would say crazier than what bill and hillary clinton faced in the '90s with impeachment and every kind of investigation. we thought that was bad, democrats thought that was a little bit shrill. this is crazy. it's scary. there are people carrying guns. there are people saying kill obama, and so any republican who is contributing to that climate really has some soul searching to do because this is ugly. we can argue about single payer or public option.

we can even argue about maybe we don't want medicare to pay nicely for people's end of life counseling. maybe we will take that out of the bill. but this level of lying and vitriol and scaring people is contributing to a very dangerous climate. >> it's always a pleasure peeking with you and tweeting with you. >> yes, tamron. and tamron, joan gets right to the point. there is -- we talk about the civil war and the republican side. there will be a huge civil war on the democratic side if mr. obama decides to abandon the public option, alienate the left side of his party. that would be very dramatic. >> it would be. tamron, another major story that we are following, a terrorist could soon be set free. the scottish government is considering a request to release the only person convicted in the 1988 bombing of pan am flight 103 over lockerbie scotland. former agent abdel basset ali al megrahi is serving a life sentence for planting the bomb that killed 270 people, including 180 americans.

but his lawyers are asking for xration gnat easter compassionate early release because he's dying for cancer. families of the victims say they're outraged. stephanie goss joins us from london. what's the latest on this possible release? >> reporter: well, david, scottish officials are saying they're going to wait until the end of the month before they make a decision on whether they release al megrahi or not. his defense team is really asking for two things. either to release him back to libya so he can spend his final days with his family or transfer him to a libyan jail. they made a similar request last year in october, which was denied. doctors came in and said that it seemed that al megrahi could actually live for several years with his condition and it seems his cancer has worsened, spread to other organs, and his chance for living is slim at this point, and that is their argument to have him released on compassionate grounds. david? >> interesting story. nbc's stephanie gosk. thank you for the report.

we're following some breaking news out of california. hundreds of firefighters are battling a wildfire that's already forced about 2,400 people in the santa cruz mountains to evacuate their homes. this is tape coming in to us of this breaking news. authorities have issued a mandatory evacuation order for the entire population of bonny doon, that's a community of about 2,000 people, and that's about eight miles north of santa cruz. we see the incredible thick smoke and this is all, unfortunately, too familiar for folks in california, but they're trying to get when possible obviously the upper hand on this latest wildfire to hit california. hundreds of firefighters on the scene, 2,400 people or better evacuated. they're looking at 2,300 acres or 3.6 square miles and they have zero containment according to the information i have got here right now, david. now we've got some live pictures of the wildfire as well in santa

cr cruz. a great number of people evacuated. the latest information, zero containment with this wildfire. we'll keep you posted on this breaking news story, bring you all the latest on it. still ahead, yet another police chase has ended in tragedy. how can officers hunt down criminals while keeping the public safe at the same time? >> look at that video. plus, the secretary of state catching a little bit of grief half a world away. does secretary clinton deserve this recent criticism? she's made some new remarks about the 2000 election. we'll play her remarks and you decide. you're watching "the big picture" on msnbc. ... you can use it while you do just about anything. it molds better... it grips better... and seals better. you can even drink water with it on. crest whitestrips advanced seal. it's a breakthrough technology... that molds and adheres to your teeth better... ...giving you a dramatically whiter smile.

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welcome back to "the big picture." for the second time in one week questions are being raised about the dangers of police chases. >> this comes after a police pursuit in detroit ended in a fiery and deadly crash. look at the video. police were chasing a stolen pickup truck when it collided with the minivan and then struck the utility pole and burst into flames. police say the driver of the pickup was killed. the drivers of the minivan suffered minor injuries. it was just last saturday in california another deadly end to a police chase. the driver of a stolen car crashed into a pickup truck killing eight people. of the eight, five were young children. ron shindell is a former new york police department inspector, also a former member of the new york highway patrol. here we are, two deadly incidents, one including children. is it time to take a look at the

procedures across the country or have one uniform policy on what to do with these chases? >> i think it's time to look at this from a multipronged approach. one of the approaches, of course, is training and recertification across the lines, a standardation across the lines for all police agencies, at least state by state if not a national standard. but there's also we need to look at the law side of it, which is when these folks run in these cars, when they're fleeing from a felony, there has to be a charge tached ee eed -- attach that as well. attaching those charges may reduce the number of people that flee in these cars somewhat. >> this is an intersection in detroit. obviously there's not a lot of traffic, but usually if there's a cvs, you know there's a number of people in and around that area. what is the right thing to do here? i mean, what would be the procedure to keep people safe? >> here you have a daytime

chase. you're expecting a lot of people to be on the street, a lot of traffic. just as a general thing, you would not pursue, unless it was a danger ussoous felon, under conditions like that. >> can you see anything police should have done differently or is this just what happens when people run from police? sometimes they get in accidents and kill themselves. >> police have to make stops. sometimes these things aren't pursuits but they're just traffic stop that is go bad. they don't get to the level of pursuit a felon or someone in the car sees the police behind them. he takes off like a shot and the next thing you know there's an accident. it wasn't really even a pursuit n cases of pursuits where there's some extended time and there's a chance for the police to make a decision, a tactical decision and for their supervisors on the scene to make that tactical decision over the radio, there needs to be a lot more training and a lot more supervision out there. >> ron, it's always a pleasure.

can you believe two of these in less than a week that we followed, and we see these kinds of things all of the time. we have covered them, of course, being cable news, but i don't know if there should be a uniform policy. people have lost their lives. >> i'm sort of surprised people don't lose their lives more often over this. we see so many of them where they end and somebody gets caught and arrested, whatnot, but it doesn't always end that way. >> coming up, a dramatic new video from the u.s. marine operation in afghanistan. we've been talking about this. troops trying to protect civilians and fight the taliban at the same time. but first take a look at this. wow. >> so what is that you may be wondering? that is a high rise demolition in china. the building which stood about 340 feet tall was brought down using controlled explosives. it was never actually completed,

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there are a lot of things that could be considered news in this world. >> but, david, there are only a few story that is make us say -- >> no way! >> no way! >> check out a scene in a backyard in california. this is a bear, david. i don't know would you believe think you were seeing things. this is the part that's kind of funny. he walks up to the swimming pool, eases in and then just enjoys himself. this one was certainly not shy or afraid of chlorine. he just scaled the wall and made

himself right at home. that's kind of cute. >> i wish we had video of him crossing highway q10 from the national forest to get there, but maybe after all that work you need to cool off. >> it's a hard day's work being a bear. some frightening moments for the pilot of a small plane. he reported gear problems before approaching an airport in venice, florida. the plane lands, but as you can see, it ends up tipping forward and comes to a stop on its nose. the two people on board, they were fine. they were able to get out safely. david, this is funny. tony danza, no way, could be headed back to high school in philly. he's working on a new reality show. it's called "teach." philadelphia education officials will vote on whether to allow this program. it would feature danza co-teaching an english class.

danza is already training teacher training. what do you think? >> i think he's gone gray in a big way. he doesn't look anything like the tony danza i remember. the new york city fire department has a new honorary member. a 5-year-old boy. they say he's a hero. talek jumped to action calling 911 when his mepregnant mother passed out at home. >> hello, you need the police? >> yes. my mommy passed out a little bit. >> put your hand over her mouth, see if you feel air coming out of her mouth. >> yes. my mommy gots seizures. >> she what? >> she gots seizures. >> oh, she gets seizures? >> mom says she taught her son what to do in an emergency when he was just 2 years old and she credits him with saving her life

and the life of his baby sister who was due to arrive next month. >> what a cutie, and he's brave. well, if it seems too good to be true, david, you know the saying, it probably is. bargain hunters found that out the hard way when best buy.com listed a 52 inch sam song hd tv for the rock bottom price of $9.99. >> no way. >> yeah, way. >> no way. $9? >> here is the crummy part. the tvs were really on sale for $1,800. some people rushed online, ordered them from best buy, but the deal was a mistake, and best buy is not going to honor the price. >> shame on them, tamron. their mistake. it's not the mistake of the people who responded. >> eat the loss. i worked retail my whole high school life. you make a mistake on the price tag you're supposed to get it. the customer is always right, best buy. >> indeed. what is wrong with hillary clinton speaking her mind?

we'll take a closer look at all the criticism mrs. clinton is getting over her comments abroad. also, will people in new orleans some day call brad pitt mr. mayor? one of those stories that's out there. we'll follow the dots on it. you're watching "the big picture" on msnbc. so? mmmm ok. you were right. these healthy choice fresh mixer thingys, they taste fresh... say it again! what? say it like, "mmmm, these healthy choice fresh mixers taste freshh!!" they taste fresh... wait. what are you doing? got it. you're secretly taping me? you were good too! but you know, it wasn't a secret to us, we knew... yes, but it was a secret to me. of course, otherwise i would be sitting like this and completely block his shot. so that's why i was like... didn't you notice this was weird? no. they taste fresh because you make them fresh. healthy choice fresh mixers. in the soup or pasta aisle.

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here is your cnbc market wrap. stocks posted gains on wall street today. the dow picked up 35 points. the s&p 500 added 6 points and the nasdaq gained 10 points. new concerns on the housing front, foreclosures are on the rise up 7% from june to july and up 32% from last year. realiti and retail sales fell short of expectations dropping 0.1 of a point in july. analysts expected a gain of 0.7%. auto sales are up with sales

jumping 2.4%. automakers are definitely benefiting from the success of the cash for clunkers program. ford will build another 10,000 vehicles this quarter to meet the growing demand. the automaker says production will increase nearly 21% as it manufactures more focus and escape models. that's the cnbc first in business worldwide market wrap. there you have it. david? good job on that, tamron hall. bravo. >> i do what i can. i do what i can. >> in the big picture, secretary of state hillary clinton continues her ten-day african visit. it's what she said about the 2000 u.s. presidential election that's making headlines here at home. clinton held a town hall in nigeria yesterday. she was discussing the importance of free and fair elections when she compared nigeria's rigged elections with the 2000 florida election in the presidential race. >> in 2000 our presidential election came down to one state where the brother of the man running for president was the

governor of the state. so we have our problems, too. >> the state department backed up mrs. clinton's comments saying she made the comparison to show despite the florida recount and the election dispute there, was still a peaceful transfer of power here in the united states. >> and in the bigger picture, david, the fallout for secretary clinton. her remark about the 2000 election is the second controversial comment she's made on her overseas trip. earlier this week in the congo, she gave a terse response to a college student who questioned -- whose question was mistranslated to say what does your husband think instead of what does president obama think. she replied she was the secretary of state, not her husband, but is secretary clinton feeling more heat because of who she is? anne kornblut is a white house reporter for "the washington post." everyone is trying to psycho analyze this. they're looking at crystal balls, at the past, and what happened in north korea. is this a real story line here? is this a different side of secretary clinton than we've seen? >> well, it certainly is a story

that's very frustrating to the clinton people, the people around here. i know they wanted this trip -- she's been gone for 11 days. she's gone to seven countries in africa. they were hoping that we'd all be talking about her work with rape victims and her diplomacy efforts in all these countries. instead, the focus has been on her comments. you know, i think that the latter comment i have not heard talked about as being quite as controversial as the first one, her demeanor certainly she didn't snap the way she did the first time, and that sentiment that the 2000 election was stolen is something that i'm sure the liberal base loves. it's something that some -- something the liberal base actually believes. but nonetheless, given that she is the chief diplomat, are these the most diplomatic words she could have uttered and does she need to be more diplomatic than she was as a candidate or even a senator given her role now. >> she was asked again apparently about her husband. here is her answer, how she expressed herself regarding

that. >> i have had a great time on this trip. i opened this newspaper, and i think she looks like she's having a great time, and from my perspective the most important part of this trip are the relationships we have built, the commitments we have discussed, the problems that we have honestly explored. >> so there she is. she did not apparently answer the question directly with something related to her husband, but nonetheless, will this be her achilles' heel no matter how well she's received and reviewed in this position, that it will perhaps come back to trying to again connect the dots with her and her husband and try to psycho analyze her? >> in a way she can't win. if she answered that question directly, we'd all lead with her answer and say she was undiplomatic. on the other hand, she's lapse back to diplospeak there. i have no doubt she will get back on track. this is the problem with having a celebrity clinton of state. somebody who is larger than life the way she is, but it's also

the advantage for them when she goes into these countries where no one would know who an ordinary secretary of state is she carries extra star power. it's the classic situation she's been in for many, many years. >> when ever you have a famous person, it's taking the good with the bad that comes with it. thank you, anne. it's great seeing you. >> reporter: thank you. a mystery at sea. how did a cargo freighter just disappear in the atlantic ocean. "the arctic sea" vanished more than two weeks ago. the crew last reported that several masked men boarded the ship, tied up and beat the 15 crew members but then the crusade the masked men took off in a high-speed inflatable boat and that's the last anyone has heard from the crew. the ship left from finland july 23rd and was scheduled to arrive in algeria on august 4th. family members of the crew members have issued an appeal to the russian government to carry out a full-scale rescue mission. and, david, we're following late-breaking news from

afghanistan. there's word an american service member was killed in an attack in southern afghanistan. no other details right now. three british soldiers were also killed today by a bomb in southern afghanistan, and there are dramatic pictures as u.s. marines and afghan troops battle for a second day to drive taliban forces from a town in southern afghanistan that they've held for years. some 400 -- look at this video -- marines and 100 afghan troops launched an assault on the town yesterday and the taliban has been putting fierce resistance. meantime, marines have bravely rescued a family from the town. they have been trapped in their home caught in the cross fire between the u.s.-led troops and taliban fighters. even a baby there. but the head of the family seemed reluctant apparently to even leave. >> tell him that right now it is not safe for them to walk over there. they have to come with us. tell them the taliban has guns all over there. >> all this is going on ahead of

afghanistan's second ever presidential election set for a week from today, august 20th. the taliban has vowed to disrupt the vote. there are also vowing to cut off any finger stained with voting ink. our "face-off" just ahead. have some republicans pulled a bait and switch on the president? >> private talks in good faith, but then public statements about so-called death panels. should democrats now go it alone on health care? so i could hearf as a ringtone ♪ ♪ who knew the store would go and check my credit score ♪ ♪ now all they let me have is this dinosaur ♪ ♪ hello hello hello can anybody hear me? ♪ ♪ i know i know i know i shoulda gone to ♪ ♪ free credit report dot com! ♪ that's where i shoulda gone! coulda got my knowledge on! ♪ ♪ vo: free credit score and report with enrollment in triple advantage. every day special.

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tamron, we're going to get a new perspective later this afternoon on that collision between the helicopter and a small private plane over the hudson river on saturday. nbc news has obtained some exclusive amateur video of that collision along the hudson river between new york and new jersey, and msnbc is going to be airing that new video on "the ed show" at 6:00 p.m. eastern. nine people were killed when a small plane slammed into a sightseeing helicopter on saturday a new perspective later this afternoon. it's time for today's "face-off." the question is should the administration continue to seek bipartisan on health care or should democrats cut bait and try to pass health care without the gop? >> david, here is the president at a town hall in new hampshire tuesday singling out several republicans for their help. >> i think that there are so

sosome of my republican friends on capitol hill who are sincerely trying to figure out if they can find a health care bill that works. chuck grassley of iowa, mike enzi of wyoming, olympia snowe from maine. >> well, today senator grassley issued a statement saying the senate finance committee would drop a provision in its bill for end of life consultation in order to avoid having the provision, quote, misrepresented. here is the same senator, grassley, seeming to do just that yesterday. >> the house bill, there's counseling for end of life, and from that standpoint you have every right to fear. we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> here to face-off democratic strategist richard good stein

and republican strategist alex. richard, let me start with you. we heard the contrast, the president complimenting senator grassley and then he didn't use the language death panels as others, including sarah palin, have used, but he said fear and these people who are standing so close to him should be worried about these consultations. what do we make of what's happening between grassley, a few others on that bipartisan group and the president? >> well, i give the president high marks, and i think the public does, too, for turning the other cheek. senator grassley knows better. what republicans and democrats know is that doing nothing means that health care costs will continue to double and americans will continue to lose health care and problems like pre-existing conditions and so forth will totally mess up how things happen in the workplace. that said, the public wants bipartisanship. that's in part by president obama got elected. they give him high marks.

they see him reaching out in a way they don't see republicans doing that. i think with what happened with the stimulus earlier this year, so long as the president sincerely tries to accommodate republican requests up to a point, and the public understands he's sincere in doing that, i think so long as he is seen as being genuine, that probably is enough. that said, i don't think he's going to let perfection be the enemy of the good. i think he wants something because the alternative is really not acceptable to anybody. >> alex, i want to play what a republican senator, lisa myrrh could you si, had to say abo-- had to say about all of this talk of death panels. >> it does us no good to incite fear in people by saying that there is end of life provisions, these death panels. quite honestly, i'm so offended at that terminology because it absolutely isn't.

there is no reason to gin up fear in the american public by saying things that are not included in the bill. >> alex, which republicans are right, those who continue the death panel conversation or like miss murkowski who says it's disgusting basically? >> well, i think senator murkowski is right, it doesn't do anybody much good going out and trying to intentionally scare people with misleading information, but that's part of what the white house is doing. people are scared that with obama care they're going to lose their doctor, lose their private insurance. the white house says it's not true, but if you ask experts, it is true. getting back to the earlier point about -- >> alealex, which experts are y talking about? that one group that was funded by the insurance industry that republicans like to cite? who are you talking about? >> yes, amongst others. >> so we're talking about

experts funded by the insurance industry. let's be clear. >> if there's a government plan, it will be tougher for private insurance companies to compete with a government plan that has the full faith and credit of the u.s. government supporting it. i think that's common sense. but getting back to the earlier point by bipartisanship, at that same event from new hampshire yesterday that you played the clip from, the president said that he was willing to go it along without republican support. that's not a very open end request for republicans to sit down at the table. republicans have been offering a lot of ideas about how to fix america's broken health care system, and the white house isn't listening. >> richard -- >> you make a great point, but can you name one concession, one concession that goes against republican orthodoxy where the republicans have said, you know what? we'll give up this issue in exchange for you giving up that issue? just name one issue that republicans have given up -- >> we haven't been invited to the negotiating table yet. >> alex, that's not true. 160 amendments.

160 amendments on the republican health committee. i mean, i don't know how you can say republicans are not involved when there are 160 amendments that are part of that provision. >> and how can you say that when you've got grassley as a republican and separate from the comments he made, he has been a part of this bipartisan group and doesn't he count as a republican? >> well, but that's my point. the white house is saying we may go our own way with this. >> but are there republicans still involved? grassley, there are at least four. they don't count? >> there's a small group of republicans talking to a small group of democrats in the senate. the white house is not reaching out to republicans asking for their ideas and taking them seriously. that's unfortunate -- >> i'm not sure that's true. richard, here is the bottom line. at a certain point the democrats have to say when is it worth it to continue trying to have these discussions with the republicans, which the republicans have made it absolutely clear, they don't want any public option of any kind, at what point do the democrats say, you know what? we've tried in good faith to do

the negotiations. it doesn't serve our interests anymore. we've got the votes. we'll do it alone. when do the democrats reach that point? >> again, if you're asking kind of when in the calendar, my guess is it will be sometime in september or perhaps as late as early october, and i think when that happens kind of politically is when they really tease out and say, okay, look, this is our final proposal. here is the basis for our belief that this proposal will do the trick in terms of costs and preventative medicine and so forth, and if they still get kind of met with, well, we want the free market to control everything, the free market is what's led to these tripling of health care costs and to people dreading getting sick for fear that, again, a pre-existing condition will keep them from ever switching jobs or if they lose their job, that their kid won't get any health care. so i think, david, to your point, it happens when -- it happened with the stimulus. we have kind of seen a dry run of this. you get to a point and you say, look, the republican orthodoxy

didn't work under bush on economics, and we think for health care it hasn't worked for a long time. this is what we think will work. >> so far the democrats have been debating democrats. the reason the house of representatives didn't pass a health care bill wfer they went on recess was because conservative and moderate democrats had big issues with what nancy pelosi was trying to drive through the house of representatives. it so far has not been a republican effort to stop it because they haven't reached out to the republicans. they've been debating amongst themselves and they can't even agree. >> let me tell you where the debate hasn't gone. as david and tamron pointed out, between enzi, snowe, and grassley, three pretty involved senators working with baucus and conrad, for example, in the democratic finance committee, there's been real engagement there. i think to say there hasn't been outreach to republicans it's belied by -- pick up any newspaper over the last several weeks. again, i think -- >> on the front end of the process you have democrats debating democrats in the house of representatives not working

with republicans. on the back end of the process you have -- >> because the republicans came up with their own plan -- >> that's right, alex, because in the house the republicans came up with their own plan, had no plan on how to pay for their own plan. you have the dnts at least trying to figure out how can we be fiscally responsible. the republicans adding nothing to that. there was no plan -- >> the democrats plan creates a huge deficit. >> they came up with a plan about how to tax the wealthiest 1% of americans, but republicans would not even come up with a plan for how to pay for their own plan. in any case -- >> we have plenty of time to continue the discussion. thank you both. i hate it interrupt you in that way, but we have to -- i wish we could continue but we cannot. up next, some things we thought you should know today. >> brad pitt's political ambitions? president obama gets his tennis numbers wrong. shame on him. and talk of a pot summit on capitol hill. then on "hardball," chris matthews will look at whether

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apparently joe the plumber is soon going to be joe the comedian, at least for a night. the man made famous by the 2008 presidential presidential race has agreed to be a comic. last year mike huckabee won the

top prize. what do you think of that, tamron? >> i think some people thought he was a joke. my mike was not on i'm told. >> too bad. there is a lot going on. here are three things we thought all of our viewers should know. >> a request comes after a legislative assistant for vote hemp says officers confiscated their bags of hemp fiber. the hemp come from the cannabis plant. it can be used to make paper, clothing, even some shampoos. officials are now from vote hemp saying they are looking at the issue. >> do they say beer always makes things go better, even hemp? tamron, for the last four years brad pitt's charity has been working hard to rebuild homes in new orleans. during an appearance on "the

today" show ann curry noted some people are urging him to run for office. >> this is a nice rendering for you. if chosen, would you run? >> yeah, yeah. >> would you serve? >> yeah. i'm running on the gay marriage, no religion, legalization and taxation on marijuana platform. >> okay. >> i don't have a chance. >> would you want to be the guy? >> i don't have a chance. >> would you -- >> didn't i just answer this? >> you didn't answer. you said -- >> that's my answer. >> your answer is no way because you're not the guy. >> i don't have a chance, no. >> did you hear him say no way? no way. >> brad pitt, political realist, who would have known? >> okay. >> go ahead, say it. >> i'm not and you're not going to make me. the president needs to brush up on his tennis facts. he apparently got a few things

wrong at his medal of freedom ceremony when talking about billie jean king's amazing career. >> after purchasing an $8 racket with money earned from chores, 11-year-old billie jean declared a goal to be the number one tennis player in the world. yet what we honor are not simply her 12 grand slam titles, 101 doubles titles, and 67 singles titles, pretty good, billie jean. >> billie jean told reporters after the ceremony that the president was way off base. >> he didn't get any of my facts right. did you see all the -- how many titles. not even in the ballpark. >> adorable? in case you were wondering, billie jean's number of titles