think something will stick. well, i think it's catching up with them. >> finally, congressman blum blumenauer. i'm just curious, are you so hot under the collar about this, after being so mall lined, if you bumped into charles grassley in the hallway of the congress, would you tell him to his face that you're not telling the truth to the american people? >> absolutely. this -- i find this deeply offensive and frankly there are a number of friends of mine that i plan on following up with to try to understand what's in your head. this is stuff that you supported last month. why aren't you speaking out in support of it now. >> thank you, congressman, keep up the fight. you're welcome here anyname. i appreciate yew honesty, thank so much. >> i appreciate your work. you bet.

let's bring in todd webster, jonathan wiseman, and also republican strategist and former communications director for the republican congressional committee karen hanready. are we just not hearing the right things? is this part of the strategy? what do you think? >> i have to agree with you tonight, ed, this rhetoric about the death panels is real ly overblown and not accurate. i agree, they should have read all 1,000 pages of it as well. if they're opposing it, i want them to have read it. look, i'm all for, you know, folks going and talking to a doct doctor, an attorney, whoever, and making these decisions before they reach the point where their children and spouses have to make the decision, very difficult decisions. my parents have made those

decisions, my husband has made those decisions, i think it's very important. i think the real -- i think the obama administration has really dropped the ball, though, on the messaging on this. >> i think they've got to get tough, i don't think there's any doubt about that. todd webster, you were with tom daschle, there was always rumors about tom, they were trying to vilify him for years, it finally got him out of office. we just had a congressman say that grassley is lying. when does the white house start talking like that? when does the white house take off the gloves and forget this bipartisan stuff? >> well, look a lie will travel halfway around the world before the truth gets its sneakers laced up. we're now seeing why they wanted to get health care done before the august break, because the longer this sits out here, the longer the insurance companies and hmos have to try to organize these latching on to bog gus issues and creating mini firestorms.

it's interesting this is happening in august, because this death panel issue is like the lobster boy at the county fair. it's a sideshow from what the real issue in this health care debate is, which is health insurance reform, chug whether the status quo is going to be allowed to continue, whether insurance companies can continue to discriminate against people who have preexisting conditions, whether 40 million americans will have no health insurance whatsoever and whether it is premiums will keep going up 35% a year, and americans are going to have less coverage. >> jonathan, i know a lot of media people gog on vacation in august. i don't think anybody is leaving right now. does this put more pressure on president obama to become aggressive and answer some of these? he did it the other day in portsmouth, but didn't go so far to point fingers. >> another thing that's against you, ed, you know, barack obama really rallied this country

during the election by talking in loftier terms, tried to bring us toward or better angel and talk about what's good for the country. in fact, his approach in the last few weeks has been about you, what's in it for you? he hasn't really appealed to the country to say, look, this is not about your health insurance. this is about what what is best for the country, what is best for 46 million people without insurance. what is right or moral about our -- about reforming the health care system. instead he's had these little fights -- these are skirmishes instead of the big, broad battle he should be waging. >> jonathan, next week he'll have a conference call with some religious leaders, what do you make of that? that is playing to the moral fiber of the country, is it not? >> right. i think maybe that's when he gets his footing. it's a very interesting battle with the evangelicals. they're pressing the idea that

this is going to fund abortions, this is going to do euthanasia. they're playing small -- the evangelicals who oppose it are playing small boar on it. obama will try to play big and talk about morals, and we'll see who wins out. >> panel, stay with us, we've got so much more coming up. appreciate your time tonight. also, dick cheney's blowing off some steam about former president bush. it sounds like he believes the former president was a political sellout. that's next in my "playbook," and more with my panel. stay with us. ♪ well i was shopping for a new car, ♪ ♪ which one's me - a cool convertible or an suv? ♪ ♪ too bad i didn't know my credit was whack ♪ ♪ 'cause now i'm driving off the lot in a used sub-compact. ♪ ♪ f-r-e-e, that spells free credit report dot co baby. ♪ ♪ saw their ads on my tv ♪ thought about going but was too lazy ♪ ♪ now instead of looking fly and rollin' phat ♪

♪ my legs are sticking to the vinyl ♪ ♪ and my posse's getting laughed at. ♪ ♪ f-r-e-e, that spells free- credit report dot com, baby. ♪ it's not too late to tell me what you think. our survey tonight is -- is health care a moral obligation? text "a" for yes and "b" for no. the results are coming up later in the program.

plus dick cheney is start to go vent his frustrations about president bush. hey, dick, something tells me the feeling was mutual. that's coming up next in "the playbook." these days, wouldn't it be great

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my favorite part? eating it. honey bunches of oats. taste the joy we put in every spoonful. dick cheney's back, trashing his old boss. shooter's telling folks in miss memoir how he really feels about his former partner in crime, and his feelings aren't warm and fuzzy. it turns out during his second term, w. started standing up for his former puppetmaster once he approval ratings started to tank. it seems shooter saw this as a moral weakness. let's bring in politico's chief political correspondent mike allen. why do we feel like we'll be talking about this the past ten year? how big of a division do you

think there was? >> of course there was a big division from day one, as you know, ed, these two leaders took very different approaches. they had very different backgrounds, and she sure hope we'll be talking about it. they both have books coming out. >> how far do you think dick cheney will go? >> i think he will not criticize the former president. his book will make news. they say the statue of limitations is gone on some of the confidences, but we're seeing an overdramatization of very real differences. the president's team wishes that the vice president would pipe down a little bit. their view is until very recently you had an incredibly popular president.

so they've been seeing things differently. what we saw in that story in "the washington post" was the suggestion from the vice president that the president had gone soft at the end, that he had not fought the good fight even when things were looking bleak. >> is he talking about iraq? is he talking about afghanistan? what is he talking about? >> specifically he was not talking about those. we're told the vice president hasn't said it quite this way, but we know at the end there was a very personal difference from them. the vice president felt very strongly then, feels strongly today that his aide, scooter libby should have been pardoned for his role in the cia leak case. the president did not do that, and it's a bur between the guys to this day. the president and vice president talk occasionally, but not a lot. they were never close personal friends. the vice president was always there to serve the president. he feels like he did that job, now he's moving on to serve himself. >> that just threw gas lee on

the fire and the friction, because obviously cheney wanted his buddy pardoned throughout all of this. a story that's developing, you know, as the days unfold post-bush era, that's karl rove, these e-mails that have come out. how vocal do you think dick cheney is going to be in defending karl rove? would he get involved in that? obviously he must have known what the heck was going on, it was an attack on the judiciary, but it seems to me there will be a lot more come ing fromthese two gentlemen. >> i think that's right. if the vice president talks about this, he'll frame he answers in terms of the office, and the presidency and the release of these e-mails. but those e-mails are juicy. it's becoming a campaign issue. just tonight the new jersey governor, jon corzine is calling on his opponent to answer questions about the rove e-mail. if karl rove is becoming an

issue? a bunch of states, that's quite a surprise to administration that we thought was sort of history, but karl has a book coming out, too. they all do, so he doesn't mind being on the griddle a little bit for that reason, too. the president's going to go on the road tomorrow, a town hall meeting in montana, max bachus's backyard. if there was ever a time to call out a colleague and not giving the president what he wants, it would be max backus. what's the mission here? >> the mitts is none too subtle. carol lee tomorrow on politico is reporting that the tickets will be given out for the president's town hall on health care in a little different way, first come, first served, which means there could be more dissent and a little more excitement. people have said the president

is good at asking questions, he should go ahead and take the tough questions, nobody is going to rattle him, and he doesn't get tagged with the suggestion he does, that the questions were too easy, because the people were screaming, so maybe a little excitement tomorrow night in montana. >> thanks, mike. mike allen from politico tonight with us on "the ed show." what is your church doing about health care? anything? i'm calling on the leadership of the christian community to explain to me where they stand, and when it comes to helping the sick. i'll put to to our panel next. (music playing)

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welcome back. our text question tonight, is health care a moral obligation? check "a" for yes, "b" for no. the panel is back. todd webster, jonathan wiseman and karen hanretty. before we get to our moral decision, our friend bill press, radio talker, was at the press briefing with robert gibbs, and asked him this question about basically trusting senator grassley. >> can you still count him as an ally? >> i still think there is a

possibility of bipartisan agreement through the finance committee in order to make progress on a piece of legislation that can pass the senate. >> he seems to be playing rope-a-dope with the white house. >> well, i will -- i guess we'll see about that. >> todd webster, is the white house playing softball on this issue? i think they are. what do you think? >> i need 60 of course, and the program will be stronger if they do have republican support for it. i think, you know, the clock is ticking, but it's not in the final seconds yet, so i think they ought to try to hold out, and if not grassley, then olympia, or susan collins or some of the moderate republicans. >> the senator from iowa has made it very clear that he will are not support anything that has any language every a government program or a public option how's the president going

to navigate around that? >> remember, you heard robert gibbs talk about getting some of the out of the finance committee that would progress the process. the idea is, you just keep the shark moving so that it doesn't drown. whatever comes out of the finance committee is probably will be what the senate bill looks like, but, you know, these deals are done behind closed doors when the senators and house members and white house meet to hash out the final deal. that was always what president obama wanted down before the august recess that we didn't see this kind of mayhem we're seeing. they'll have to do it in september. first they need something through the senate. >> karen, i thought the president did an excellent job in portsmouth, new hampshire, debuvged all the right-wing bullet points and even made it very clear that the president of the united states -- as president, he is willing to raise taxes.

now, it's been a while since we've had an answer like we got yesterday. if you're at $250,000 a year and more, he's in favor of a tax increase. how's that going to fly with his number one, his colleagues. do you think the democrats have got the guts to go down the road? >> no, i don't. i'm not entirely sure why you think the president is so gung ho about a public option. i think he's more than willing to compromise on the public option. he's going to sell out the left wing of his party on health care. when he's done with that, he'll sell out the left wing of his party at cap and trade. >> then i think he'll be a one-term president. >> he's more than willing to toss aside a public option in order to get some sore of bipartisan bill on health care out of, you know, before the end of the year. it's going to happen. you can cry on my soul when he does it. >> there can be no fundamental change in this country unless

there is a public option. so if the president wants to take that game able with his base, i ge gis he only wanl tons in the white house for four years. i think he'll have a real hard time. i'm not afraid to say that. i honestly believe that. he has to get the victory on the public option. todd, your thoughts on it? >> i agree completely, but i think paul begala, the smartest person i think at articulating the democratic message, if you look at what fdr did with social security, at first it didn't cover a lot of people, and it was an important incremental step. better to get half a loaf than get the perfect bill. that said, i think the cutting up the loaf ought to be happening, as jonathan said it, at the final conference between the