china's economy had grown meaningfully in the last quarter. do you believe those numbers, or are you skeptical like some who say hey, it's an authoritarian regime, they can cook the books if they want? >> no, they're really moving. when they did their stimulus, they had the shovel-ready projects all over the country. a little bit different from us. they're building subway systems, hundreds of kilometers, workers working. you see it with your own eyes. there's something real going on there. >> i have to ask you about some of the disturbances in china, though. it seems there have been a number of different protests, whether it's been other protests. was there a sense of more public unrest in china, or am i just reading individual reports and there's not a lot to tie them together? >> no, there's a lot of tension. you know, it's economically related in part, but also all along the fringe areas of the country. you know, the outer western parts. you have minority groups that are in conflict with other parts of china. so there's tension.

there's no doubt about it. >> we're going to have an interesting show. lots of conversations to have including with erin burnett about a subject i know you care deeply about. does the obama administration need to do a whole lot more to really get this economy in the recovery? >> we'll talk about it. >> we'll talk about that a bunch. in fact, the bvm administration is signaling the white house may be willing to abandon the public option. a key feature in their health plan. health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius says the government program is, in fact, not essential. >> what we don't know is exactly what the senate finance committee is likely to come up with. they've been more focused on a co-op, not-for-profit co-op as a competitor, as opposed to a straight government-run program. and i think what's important is choice and competition. and i'm convinced at the end of the day the plan will have both of those. but that is not the essential element. >> nbc news white house correspondent savannah guthrie joins us now. good to see you. >> reporter: hey there, how you doing?

>> good. savannah, i'm not surprised, i guess, to hear the white house kind of backing away from the public insurance option. i kind of feel like former governor howard dean who assumes that the senate will pass something without a public option. they'll go into conference between the house and senate. and miraculously could end up back in there. am i the only one thinking this way? what are you hearing up in d.c.? >> reporter: you know, in some ways the body language was here all along. so yeah, i'm with you, carlos. i'm not sure it was a total shocker to hear the administration seem to back away a little bit from the public option. at least saying, look, it's not a deal breaker if we don't have it. because over these last few months, especially since the co-op option came into favor and certainly seems to be what's going to come out of the senate finance committee, whenever asked, either the president or press secretary robert gibbs, hey, will the president sign a bill if it doesn't have a public option? they always kind of hedge. they always left a little bit of wiggle room. so it doesn't shock me entirely. now, look. it may be that the senate

finance committee comes up with a bill or not, bipartisanship fails and they decide to do a democrat-only plan. and then the plan is back in business. so i think it remains to be seen. we do see the administration leaving its options open as it has all along. >> savannah, i want to bring in dr. jeffrey sachs from columbia university who's been involved in a lot of policies both here and overseas and ask him about the role of economists in this conversation. jeff, we saw former president clinton in the early '90s when he was trying to pass the stimulus package and do other things. he often would get 100 economists to sign a letter, put it in "the new york times" or get the ceos from silicon valley to buttress his argument. i don't see this happening, calling on economists and others. why is that on this public option question? >> i don't know, if 100 economists signing anything

would come into much public interest to save the economy. >> right. >> i don't blame them on that. i guess, you know, my question to savannah and my question for the administration is what is central if the public option is not central, what is the bottom line? one of the problems with this whole debate over the last couple of months is that we're debating in a very ethereal way, in other words, very unclear. what's the plan? what are we defending? what are we attacking? what's the critique right now? what is secretary sebelius saying is the core of this at this point? >> savannah, to you. >> reporter: well, some things are real obvious, okay? like the insurance reforms. i think there's a set of eight which i call it the top ten gripes people probably have against insurance companies, preexisting conditions, cutting off people once they're sick or reducing benefits. that kind of thing. that's got to be a core part of any health care reform. i think we'll see that in the relatively noncontroversial. this other thing about the public option is a real good

point. something the president clearly favors. and the reasoning behind it, the nonnegotiable from the administration point of view is whatever we do here with health care reform is it's got to increase choice and competition and bring costs down. so this issue of the co-op, it seems to me, just reading between the lines, if the co-op or whatever comes out of the senate finance committee looks and acts like a public option, accomplishes many of the goals of the public option, but isn't a government-run health care, per se, sounds to me that's something the administration would look at and be interested in. but i think what you're really hearing -- and frankly progressives and folks on the left side of the democratic party feel kind of angry or frustrated today because they're just wondering, well, wait a minute. is this really health care reform, or is this something that's going to be watered-down changes that they'll call health care reform? so there's a lot of tension. the administration really walking the line here. >> savannah guthrie at the white house, thank you so much. >> reporter: sure. president obama says that the public option is, quote,

just one sliver of health care reform. but is it? for more on this let's bring in democratic strategist bob shrum, also joining us msnbc analyst pat buchanan, also the author of "state of emergency: the third world invasion and conquest of america." good to see you both this morning. >> morning, carlos. >> bob, who did i elicit a laugh from? from pat or bob? >> you know, it's sort of a predictable title for one of pat's books, but it will probably sell a lot of books on the right and help the republican party to permanent minority status. >> i've written two books since then, bob, and that was about the immigration debate which as you recall we won pretty well. >> oh, yeah, you really won. you managed to drive that hispanic vote for the republican presidential candidate down from 44% to 35%. and republicans can't win without 40% of the hispanic vote. >> we're doing just fine right now. i notice obama's in strategic retreat, bob. >> actually, you know what?

you guys have brought this to the perfect place. i didn't even need to set this up. hey, bob, i'm going to go to you first. is pat right, is the president in strategic retreat at this point midway through the august recess, and if not, what in your mind does he need to do in order to ultimately get meaningful health care reform done? >> i think he's going to get meaningful health care reform done. i think savannah guthrie just made a very important point, which is it doesn't matter if it's a co-op as long as that co-op actually provides the kind of competition and the kind of alternative that we need to make the health insurance system work more effectively. people talk about obama in strategic retreat or obama's poll ratings. the poll ratings that matter are the poll ratings next year, not the poll ratings now. and i think as we head into the midterm elections next year, the president's going to get a lot of credit for what's going to by then seem to be real economic recovery. and he's going to get a lot of credit for health care reform. >> hey, pat, is there any kind of major health care reforms that realistically we could

expect to see five or six republican senators sign off on, or in the end, is all this talk about bipartisanship ultimately going to whittle down to the two senators from maine? >> i think there is. i really do. and, look, i think obama is really yielding to necessity. it wasn't going to get through senate finance, this deal. and so he says, okay, that's not essential. and howard dean this morning said what they're going to do is put the co-op in. then you get the government option in the house bill. then you marry them in conference. and the co-op goes -- i mean, the government option goes back in. then we ran it through both houses with 50 votes. i mean, i'm not sure that's a very smart thing to be talking about because what you say is we're going to run right over the blue dogs in the final vote. but i do think obama is correct that he's got to step back from some things. the death panels are gone. government option is gone. i think you can get some republicans. i think he can win. i think there's a lot of forces in there, carlos, that want a

bill, institutional forces, and i think he can win. he's doing what he's got to do. >> what do you think would be a true bipartisan solution right now? how could you get coverage up for the tens of millions of people that are not covered right now that can't afford it? what would be the real bipartisan way to do that? >> look. i mean, you've got to get the government option out of there. you've got to get the death panels out. but i do think in terms of things like the portability stuff, insuring far more people than you're insuring right now, you know, guaranteeing folks getting access, there's a lot of things in there that a lot of republicans support. and if obama pares out a few things, i think he can still win this thing. it's a tough thing to do because there is a perception that he's in retreat. and the conservative republicans have got the taste of blood. and they want to take him down. and i think there's a possibility they can, but he's doing what he's got to do. >> bob shrum, you get the final word before we head out. >> well, look. to pat -- pat's talking about

these conservative republicans. to them it's all about politics. the truth is there are over 50 million americans without health coverage today. we have to get them covered. and by the way, pat, there were never death panels in this bill. there was a proposal by johnny isaacson of georgia to allow people to have counseling about what kind of medical interventions they wanted at the end of their life. >> bob, pat, do you have a living will? do you have a living will? >> no, i don't. >> you should and everybody should. >> but sarah spotted them there and now they're gone. you know them as well as i do. >> sarah palin for the republican nomination, i want her. i think it will be a great campaign. >> she's doing what she should do, and she's doing it very, very well. and you know it, bob. >> and i think you should be her chief strategist. you should be her chief strategist. >> who were you chief strategist for? how well did they do? >> al gore who was elected president before you guys stole the election in 2000. >> that's the way it goes. sure. we stole them all. >> you stole that one, though.

>> '60. we're even. >> no one believes that stuff about '60. >> i have to interrupt because this is a good one but i have to leave it there. bob shrum, pat buchanan, spreesh you folks joining us. i hope you come back and see you later this week. this is not done. thank you guys. >> thank you. should the white house be open to a co-op plan instead of a real public health plan? tell me what you think. go to twitter.msnbc.com. jeff sachs and i will read your tweets in about 20 minutes. also ahead, bright spots in the economy, is it a sign that things are getting a little better, but why do 57% of americans believe the stimulus isn't working? and the man who threw his own family's pets into a ring of vicious fighting dogs is now encouraging you to love your animals. is michael vick believable, and will the philadelphia eagles fans ever love the man who may be too easy to hate? the eagles. you're watching "msnbc live." going to miss

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welcome back to "msnbc live." i'm carlos watson. after a full six months after the president implemented the stimulus plan rngs it's got a long way to go when it comes to convincing the american people that it's working. a just-released "usa today"/gallup poll found that 57% of americans think it had no impact on the economy or it's making things worse. meantime, just 18% of those polled say it's done nothing to help the situation. let's bring in erin burnett. good to see you. >> reporter: good to be with you, carlos. >> what's wall street saying after what's been a last terrific month and a half or so, or actually i should say several months? >> it's interesting. we have a starkly down day due to concern about the economy. and it lynxes into the survey you were talking about, carlos. what we just saw overnight,

right? japan's economy grew. that is a feat. but then everyone looks at the number and says, well, it was really because of government spending. and that's part of the concern we're seeing in this economy which is that the growth that we have had is due to government spending. now, interesting public perception says that the stimulus plan is not working. economists and investors might be critical of whether the plan could have been structured differently or how quickly it's working. but it is fair to say that in the second quarter of this year, the stimulus plan did contribute to growth. somewhere between 1% and 3%. but it certainly did. the perception issue you can see is a significant one. and one that i think the obama administration, no doubt, is paying close attention to today. >> erin, i'm joined by dr. jeffr jeffrey sachs who knows a little about the economy. >> good morning. >> the economy is dragging, even if it's being given a little bit of lift. unemployment still rising. everybody seems to have the same view that it's going to rise to

more than 10%. consumers are feeling pretty miserable. growth is basically near zero, whether it's positive or negative. >> you hear you agreeing with the 57% who say the stimulus hasn't worked. >> i don't think the stimulus has done very much. it's probably had a very minor, positive effect, but a very small one. there's more spending to come. one of the disappointing parts of our economy and the way government works, frankly, is that a lot of the infrastructure spending, the physical -- the buildings, the roads and so forth hasn't even gone out the door yet. because it takes so much time in this country to get something done these days. when i was in china just a couple of weeks ago, they're building more than 100 kilometers of subway system right now. they're really building it. they turned the dial. they get more workers on tracks, more roads being built and so forth. in our country, we announce it. we budget for it. then there's long procurement periods, the planning and all

the rest. may be good, may be bad. maybe just read tape. but most of that spending hasn't even started yet. we'll get more of a kick going into 2010 but little of that has happened so far. >> carlos, it's amazing. you know, all the environmental approvals we get in this country, which is a separate issue, is something that can slow these projects down. but the white house says we'll get $100 billion in this spending. and i guess the question is are we going to need it over that extended period of time? what jeff is referring to, you know, we really may. because you simply have not -- we're still losing jobs. we are not creating jobs. it is hard to see exactly when that might start. >> erin, my guess is we're going to be very happy to have that spending coming online. it's not that we're going to get this massive rebound and then say why do we need it? we're going to need it going into 2010, probably beyond that. >> it will be a tough thing to watch. erin burnett at cnbc, thanks for joining us. >> good to see both of you. coming up, the president has

signed the defense of marriage act is speaking out against discrimination. is president clinton's tone a sign that gay advocates rights are winning? more on the news the white house may be considering a health care co-op plan. is now the question, what in the world is a co-op anyway? stay tuned. you're watching "nsnbc live." i'm carlos watson. even during times like these, there is a light beginning to shine again. it comes from a restaurant downtown. a shop on main street. a factory around the corner. entrepreneurs like these are the most powerful force in the economy. the reinvention of business begins with them. and while we're sure we don't know all the answers, we do know one thing for certain: we want to help. come see what the beginning looks like at openforum.com introducing the all new chevy equinox. with an epa estimated 32 miles per gallon.

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welcome back to "msnbc live." i'm carlos watson. the house is working to combine three committee bills on health reform into one bill for a floor vote that's expected to happen at the end of september. now, at the same time the senate is looking to strike a health care deal before september 15th deadline set by president obama. joining us to talk about all this is nikki tsongas of massachusetts. congresswoman tsongas, good to see you this morning. >> good morning, carlos. how are you? >> very good. congresswoman tsongas, how are you feeling about the words we're hearing on the senate

side, both like those of kent conrad, the smore who chairs the budget committee, and others who seem to suggest that there won't be a public option in the senate bill but more likely a co-op? do you feel good about that? do you feel like that's actually progress you can sign on to? >> well, i think we have to remain to see what happens as the senate does its work, and then the house passes out its bill and we bring the two together. but i remain committed to the importance of a public option. if you think about it, with the mandated coverage for every individual in this country, that's 47 million new customers for the private insurance industry. and it seems to me we have to have one not-for-profit competitor in the mix. and to me, that's the public option. the great importance of it is provides competition to the private insurance companies. it provides expanded choice. you know, one of the things i've learned as we've gone about this debate is there are many parts of this country that really have a choice of maybe two for-profit insurance companies.

in massachusetts, we have many more insurance companies to choose from. many of them not-for-profits. and it seems to me everybody across this country should have that choice as well. >> congresswoman, jeff sachs, nice to see you this morning. i wonder if there's a growing consensus how we'll pay for the expanded coverage. is there a surcharge on the millionaires going to be the way to go, or is there some other option around which the congress is coalescing right now? >> well, the surcharge is still the piece that we see in the house bill. the senate, obviously, has had very different approaches to it. we've yet to blend the three bills that have come out of the various committees in the house. but the surcharge seems to be the one that's sticking. so i think it remains to be seen what the senate does. and again, as we move forward with the two bills passing their respective bodies and then coming together in conference. so the surcharge at this point is the house version deemed to be the appropriate way to go. >> congresswoman tsongas, last

question for you. there was some controversy over at the white house, so-called secret deal with the pharmaceutical industry. do you think that the white house should be going more aggressively after the pharmaceutical industry to ask for more in savings that the industry has pledged? in other words, should they be looking at $150 billion when we talk about how to pay for this to lower the overall costs of health care? >> well, i can tell you as part of the past couple weeks we've had in our district work periods, i've been meeting with constituents. and we all heard about the various town hall forums that many members have held. but one of the recurring issues and one of the real concerns the american people have is the real power that the pharmaceutical companies hold. so i think there's much work yet to be within with holding the pharmaceutical companies accountable. >> congresswoman tsongas, thanks for join says us. i hope the next time you're in new york you'll stop by and join us live in the studio. >> thank you, carlos. have a good day. >> you, too. for more on the debate and other

hot-button issues, check out our website. go to carloswatson.msnbc.com or go to twitter.com/carloswatson. coming up next, is the tide turning for gay rights in america? now, the man who brought you the defense of marriage act and don't ask, don't tell sounds off. plus, the risk of health care reform. as the left and right roll out strategies, we look at how the heated debate could impact both parties in the midterm elections. that's straight ahead. you're watching "msnb live." you're listening to some good music. i'm carlos watson. ren't always my favorite day. with all the pet hair in the air, i'd spend class preoccupied, bothered by itchy eyes. but now i have new zyrtec® itchy eye drops. it works fast, with just one drop, to relieve my itchy eyes from allergies for up to 12 hours. no other allergy itchy eye drop works faster or longer. which is good, 'cause there's a lotta paws to shake. with new zyrtec® itchy eye drops i can love the air™. (announcer) find it in the allergy aisle next to other zyrtec® products.

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the santa cruz mountain areas still only about half contained. about ten square miles scorched since wednesday. and the city of chicago is essentially closed to save money. many city offices are shut down including libraries, health clinics and city hall. a handful of reduced service days are planned through the end of the year to help balance the city's budget. and two days after senator jim west secured the release of an american prisoner in myanmar, that man is undergoing medical treatment in bangkok. 53-year-old had been sentenced to seven years in prison for sneaking into the home of myanmar's pro-democracy leader. senator webb's release during a week with the country' leadership. the obama administration's now actually changing their tune. one of the real risks of reform and how could a health care deal impact the midterm elections? joining us is former commerce secretary gutierrez. secretary gutierrez, good to see you again.

>> pleasure, carlos. good to see you. >> good to see you. we started a conversation last week. and you were saying that one of the pieces of analysis that hasn't happened in your mind is talking about the real risk involved in any kind of health care reform, even bipartisan reform. do you want to outline two or three of the areas that you think we should be putting more focus on? >> sure. i think the obvious risk is that we spend $1 trillion, and our costs go up, which is essentially what the congressional budget office says, or that we spend the $1 trillion, our costs go up. and because the public option takes off, the reimbursement rates, the hospitals and doctors declines. and what you have over time, over 10, 15 years, potentially lower quality hospitals, fewer hospitals, fewer doctors, fewer drug innovations and fewer medical devices. i'm not saying that will happen, but nobody knows what will happen because this is one big massive experiment. i think the american people,

carlos, like a moderate -- a moderate spectrum. they may be center right, center left, but i think they reject extremes. what we're hearing, i believe, is the american people are sensing that this whole plan is going to an extreme. >> jeff sachs here. nice to see you. i'm wondering what you think about the challenge of bringing in the 50 million people who don't have insurance at all right now. and that seems a crisis that is an immediate and urgent crisis, not something that can wait. i wonder, you know, aside from the public and the not public options and so on, what about the uncovered? >> yeah. and i think that's a good question. it's important to outline what exactly are objectives and goals and what is strategic and what is tactical? my understanding, jeff, is that that number, if you start peeling through how much really can we do, and how many people are actually uninsured that

would like to be insured but can't be, somewhere between 10 million and 15 million. if that's the target, i'm sure we can come up with ways of using existing programs, of helping those folks, of finding some way of subsidizing that. i think everyone wants to help in that regard. it's a matter of what do we do now? what is important to do now? what can we afford to do now, and do we have our focus on the right challenge? >> but secretary gutierrez, you know, that's what frustrates a lot of progressives and others which is that when republicans are asked how to cover those 50 million, the perspective of many progressives that republicans don't have an answer. and the thought is that there's a moral necessity -- there's a moral imperative, if you will, for all members of the public debate to step forward with the clear solution on how to cover the 50 million in the sense that republicans don't have an answer, that they've only got a no. >> well, what we said is -- we

have been very supportive of individual empowerment of these insurance exchanges which we believe will go a long way to providing competition. i mean, if the goal is competition, we can do that without creating a public option. what i heard from the president is that the public option is a tactic. it's not strategic. howard dean is saying it is strategic. it is everything. it's where we want to go in the future. it's what we want to be in the future. we want to have a health care system where the government is in charge. we can insure people. again, you go back to 50 million, i'm saying 10 million, 15 million. we need to understand what that number is because it makes a huge difference. but if the goal is that, and we want to focus on that, i'm sure that republicans can come together on a bipartisan way to think about how can we help those folks have health insurance? but right now the debate has been we need a public option. we need a public option because

somehow we need to make these insurance companies be honest with more competition. there are different ways of getting competition. the public option is not the only way. and i think the obama administration is actually being very wise in recognizing that and not trying to ram something through that the american people feel very uncomfortable with. >> secretary gutierrez, thank you so much for joining us. we look forward to having you back again soon. >> pleasure. thank you. up next, the state of gay rights in america. now, the white house has just taken a bold move. details on that right after the break. what are your thoughts about the state of gay rights in america? moving forward? moving backward? staying in place? i want to hear what you have to say. just head over to our website, twitter.msnbc.com. follow the link to my twitter page, click on it there. let me know. or just go to twitter.com/carloswatson. also ahead, triple threat in the tropics. now, the atlantic hurricane season kicks off with three named storms.

plus michael jik fights to repair his image. but is the damage too far done? we've got that conversation straight ahead. you're watching "msnbc live." i'm carlos watson. carol! denise! you've lost weight! it's just all these giant things make me look small. i eat this fiber one yogurt. (mr. mehta) it has five grams of fiber, zero fat, and fifty calories. please, this is too creamy and delicious. it's true, only fifty calories. (announcer) fiber one yogurt. but i did. you need to talk to your doctor about aspirin. you need to be your own advocate. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. you take care of your kids, now it's time to take care of yourself. they say imports always get the best mileage. well, do they know this malibu offers an epa estimated 33 mpg highway? they never heard that. which is better than a comparable toyota camry or honda accord?

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welcome back to "msnbc live." tropical depression claudette is dumping heavy rain on the southeast right now with winds near 35 miles per hour. now, the first named storm to hit the u.s. this season was actually downgraded from a tropical storm after making landfall in florida. right now claudette is barrelling over alabama and mississippi. luckily no major damage is expected. we'll keep watching it right here on msnbc. now to today's provocative daily topic. the future of the gay rights movement. the obama administration has literally just filed court papers today claiming the defense of marriage act discriminates against gays even as government lawyers continue to defend the law. now, justice department lawyers are seeking to dismiss a suit

brought by a gay california couple challenging the 1996 defense of marriage act. in the court papers the administration urges the repeal of the law but says in the meantime, government lawyers will continue to defend it as the law on the books. former president bill clinton who was president that signed into law spoke out strongly against both discriminatory policies just a few days ago. >> the thing that changed me forever on don't ask, don't tell was when i learned that 130 gay service people were allowed to serve and risk their lives in the first gulf war, and all of their commanders knew they were gay. they let them go out there and risk their lives because they needed them. then as soon as the first gulf war was over, they kicked them out. that's all i needed to know. that's all anybody needs to know to know that this policy should be changed. >> with me now to talk about tipping rights, carrie elivel, frequent cohost on this show. good to see you. >> great to be here, carlos. >> this is big news.

a little bit of a thunder bolt this morning. say more about your thoughts hearing that the white house, that the democratic administration is opposing what had been a democratic-led law. >> yeah. well, i mean, i've got to say, i was a little shocked this morning. because the white house hadn't shown any signs of this previous to taking this action. and i think what it says is that the white house decided that it was untenable to defend a law that takes away the states' rights to define marriage as they see fit. i mean, i get the sense that they just decided that was a politically untenable, you know, tactic to defend going down the road. >> now, kerry, put all this in a little bit of perspective. because you and i have been talking about whether or not, over the last 12 to 18 months, we've seen some interesting movement, if you will, in support of gay rights. and you've mentioned a couple of things that you think suggest that there's been some forward progress. do you want to walk through a couple of those? >> well, sure. i mean, there's been, obviously,

look. we've tripled the number of states that legalize -- have legalized same-sex marriage just this year. if you look at the senate, there were eight senators going into this congress that support same-sex marriage. and now there are 12. so we added four just this year. if you look at something like iowa, i mean, that gave mainstream credibility to the idea of legalizing same-sex marriage. and then there was vermont which was the first state to legislatively legalize same-sex marriage. then i think we have a few things coming up that will be very interesting. you know, shortly after vermont happened, you had new hampshire, and you had maine legislatures also legalize same-sex marriage. and on november 3rd, maine voters will have a chance to take a look at and weigh in on whether or not they want to keep that marriage law. >> now, but kerry, for all of that, it sounds like, you know, like so many things. all of this will lead to california. and ultimately california could

be a decisive factor in all of this. some folks are saying that proposition 8 which banned same-sex marriage in california last year, there was a notion that it could be challenged at the voting booth next year. but some gay rights advocates are saying 2010 may be too soon. the state may not be ready. let's wait until 2012. what does that say to you about support for gay rights and arguably one of the most progressive states in the union? >> well, i think the jury's still out on california. you know, as usual, within our community, there's disagreement over whether 2010 or 2012 is the right time to go. people who are arguing for 2012 say, look, there's donor fatigue after an $85 million campaign. there will be a fresh new wave of progressive voters who can weigh in on this in 2010. but, you know, the other people argue, look, momentum is on our side. look at how many great things have happened already this year.

and we may add new york yet this year. i mean, governor paterson has already said earlier this year that he still plans to take a vote on same-sex marriage bill in new york. so this isn't over. i wouldn't be surprised to see this on the ballot in 2010. there's something very different about having your rights and having the supreme court say that the constitution guarantees you a right to marry. and then having the voters sweep that away. once you've had rights, it's very different. and to wait until 2012 to try and realize those rights again is a very long time for people who live in that state. >> kerry eleveld, look forward to having you back soon. coming up, should michael vick get a chance? he returns to the gridiron under the skeptical eye of some fans. we've got that conversation straight ahead. dave and touray join jeff sachs and me.

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welcome back to "msnbc live." i'm carlos watson. michael vick is back on the football on the football field and back in the public eye, working to convince americans that he deserves a second chance. vick told cbs' "60 minutes," he's now disgusted when thinking about his involvement in the illegal dogfighting ring and says he deserved trading his massive atlanta falcons contract for 18 months behind bars. >> for the cynics who will say, you know what, i don't know. michael vick may be more concerned about the fact that his career was hurt than dogs were hurt. >> i don't -- i mean, i don't -- football don't even matter. >> losing $135 million contract doesn't parmatter? >> it don't matter. >> why not? >> i deserved to lose it, because what i was doing it.

>> let's bring in sports writer dave zooirn and toure, an msnbc contributor. toure, i'll go to you first. as you look at this, you felt contrition on the part of michael vick? >> i felt he was extremely humbled. i saw some level of remorse. definitely upset that all this had happened, felt that he'd done the wrong thing in the past. does he really love animals now? does he really feel -- i was waiting for him to say a life is a life and he didn't say that. he said things like that on the globalgrind.com, he blogs for them, so he was more contrite about his animal stuff there than he was was "60 minutes." he talked about crying in jail. that was a big thing for a macho football player to say. >> where does michael vick go from here? we see so many players, whether it's adam "pacman" jones who played for the cowboys, or

others who got in trouble trying to get a second chance, but don't get all the way across the goal line. they keep stumbling again. do you think michael vick will succeed and return to good graces? >> well, first of all, it's great to be here, carlos. thank you so much for having me. >> my pleasure. >> here's the deal with michael vick. this is no better team for him to go to to get this second chance in philadelphia. and there's no worse city for him to go to than philadelphia. i mean, it's a terrific team for him to get this second chance, because they have a strong ownership, strong coaching staff, he has a big brother there if donovan mcnabb, the starting quarterback. but when you think about the city of philadelphia, think about some of the most rabid fans in all the sports world. and despite its progressive sheen, let's be honest, philadelphia is the city of frank rizzo, the city of the bombings and gino's cheese

steaks. >> you're saying there's racial strife that's been existing for the existing quarterback. >> donovan mcnabb is about as exciting as eating lentil soup and even he is polarizing in philadelphia. what will michael vick be in philadelphia? >> i'm sure you'll remember when the philly fans booed kobe bryant on his return for the all-stars games. they'll boo everybody. >> i think they'll embrace vick if they see a win, a reason he's making the eagles a little better. i don't know, and i want to hear dave talk about this, will vick be responsible for one win that the eagles wouldn't have had if he hadn't been there, especially late in the season, perhaps in december/january? i'm not sure he's going to do that. what do you think, dave? >> i think he's going to make a huge impact on the team.

and i'll tell you why. right now michael vick has the sixth highest winning percentage of any quarterback in the national football league, and he's of one -- >> 52% accuracy rate. he can't really hit the guys out in the field. >> but he didn't always have the best receivers, let's be fair, in atlanta. >> and he averaged seven runs a don. he's a tremendous talent, former number one pick, only quarterback in history to rush for 1,000 yards. >> three games away. >> i've got to work leave it there. i hope you come back. your friend, toure, actually owes me a dinner. >> no, i do not! >> he doesn't want to be honest about it. >> no, the bet was vick would start by week nine. >> we're going to go to the tape. we're going to go to the tape. right now, it's time for our

"c" note. >> i'm getting hungry. >> jeff saks just came back from traveling the world once again and i wanted, jeff, to ask you as we close out here, a couple of intriguing things that you may be seeing as you travel the world, india, china, other places that the rest of us will only read about in the next three to six months. >> one, the world economy, which we've seen bottom here is actually growing in some other parts of the world. so we're not tumbling into utter collapse. this is big news. both china and india, a lot of economic a econom economic activity. that's good. second thing i was really shocked by, we just saw, we got the new weather in the caribbean. we have a new el nino, which is a worldwide climate change, annual change. and what it means is because of what's happening in the pacific ocean, we got drought in india. so you say, what is drought in india? well, they produce sugar, they produce beans and other things

that are now going to be down. world market prices are soaring for those things. so in this interconnected world, this climate stuff is bouncing all over the world when it hits. the third thing i saw is that everybody is trying to scramble right now. how are we going to get on to a long-term, really sustainable recovery? and that brings us to an event that people need to watch a little bit, which are these negotiations about the future of the world energy system that are supposed to take place in denmark at the end of the year, in copenhagen. >> copenhagen later this year. you're going to be back. >> that's big for our economy. >> we're going to be announcing next month a very special series with jeff saks you'll see here only on "msnbc live." that does it for me this hour. dr. nancy snyderman picks up our coverage next. ♪ bicycle, what are we waiting for? the flowers are blooming.

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coming up today on dr. nancy, is the public option on or off the table? major debate erupting this afternoon as president obama appears to open the door to health care co-ops. could this get anymore confusing? we're going to get to the bottom of it. plus this -- >> nothing could be further from the truth that there's somehow a death panel. >> life and death. it's the other big debate in the health care reform bill. the end-of-life provision. is that going to go away too? and what is it really all about? and the swine flu shot, news reports about potential dangers stirring fear, not hysteria yet, but today we have the facts you'll need to know about this vaccine. and sleeping like a baby. you see those little ones in magazines everywhere. we're going to tell you why some of those images could be dangerous to your child's

health. hello, everyone, i'm dr. nancy snyderman. we begin with a new twist to the health care debate. the white house this weekend appearing to back off its demand nor the public option that would give health care access to everyone. both the president and his secretary of health implying that the administration would consider privately run co-ops and that has set off a firestorm of debate. >> the public option, whether we have it or we don't have it, is not the entirety of health care reform. this is just one sliver of it. >> there are not the votes in the united states senate for the public option. there never have been. so to continue to chase that rabbit, i think, is just a wasted effort. >> the public option is really the only way tio inject the kin of things that the president wants. and i think the secretary was wrong when she said it was not essential, it is essential. >> if they went back to co-ops in