>> there is truth to all, all of it is true. nothing has changed. for months, the white house has offered -- make or break. it's not a line in the sound. it's not essential in the reform. it's a preferred method. so yes, they still believe in it. like when the president put forth his plan to pay for health care, the tax hike he's recommending, which has to do with how much money people in certain tax brackets can write off when it comes to chartable donations is probably not going to be the way it's paid for. he still talks about a preferred method. so the public option. it's his preferred method. but they now have let out more publicly that this is negotiable. if this is a co-op -- it becomes

more of a government-backed plan. in some form or another, so that, they just exposed what we had already been hearing about for months. >> one more thing. we're hearing a lot about if you like medicare, that's still going to be your option. he told the veterans today, veterans benefits are not going to change. the problem is, there have been some widely publicized, well-exposed issues with the kind of medical care our veterans get or the lack there of. the same thing goes with medicare, that sometimes, there are huge flaws in the system. is that the right way to tout a new system? >> you can put holes in -- everybody's got a horror story when it comes to health care, whether it's veterans, health care or with private insurance. that's the risk on any of this. i would say this. but it's just as risky. the president talked about how

if veterans like their insurance, they don't have to change. that is true. he can guarantee that. the problem is when he says that line to folks that have private insurance. he can't guarantee that employers might not change their health insurance plans. >> all right. thank you. my big questions today on health care, why are we still talking about death panels? is the president trying to convince is inconvincible and would a college-style debate clear up the question? a college student has challenged the president to one and we'll talk to that student. if you have comments or questions, you can share with me here on twitter and i may read or share some of your thoughts on the air. two tropical depressions and a hurricane making for a soggy south. claudette was downgraded to a deprepgs and gets weaker by the

hour. and ana could hit in the next few days. hurricane bill, this is the one we might need to watch closely. let's go to kristen. she's in panama city, florida, out standing in the nasty weather. you still getting rain there from claudette? >> reporter: the national hurricane center may have issued its last advisory on claudette. here in panama city, we are still feeling the effects. also, the water rougher than it has been. this storm really a rain-maker. the winds not the big issue. here in panama city, we've seen over three and a half inches of rain. some areas could get up to six inches. the biggest impact is that claudette was a wake-up call. friday, we were talking about how we were two and a half

months into this hurricane season and still no named stormed. three formed this weekend, which gave people less than three hours notice. so really a wake-up call. now of course, we are watching the remnants of ana, and bill, that is a hurricane out in the atlantic, expected to be a major hurricane. while right now, it doesn't appear to be threatening the u.s., claudette, a reminder that things change quickly with these systems. the good news, no major damage from claudette and it was definitely a wake-up call. authorities say it's a race against time for a georgia woman missing for almost a week. she disappeared last tuesday. her boyfriend says he was talking with her on the cell phone when he heard a struggle and she screamed and said, don't take me. a homeowner found her cell phone

friday three and a half miles from where she disappeared. we're in the middle of a heat wave in new york, but you wouldn't know it by wall street. the dow jones industrials are looking a little puny today and there we go. the s&p -- look at that. the dow down 170 points. i would say that's more than puny. the nasdaq is off by 42. scott cohen has the latest for us. w >> puny would refer to the trading volume. you've got to take anything this time of year to the perspective. trading volumes are light, but there is concern about how far the markets came. the markets are correcting a

little, maybe more than a little. >> thank you for the update there. moving on. still ahead on msnbc, the fight over health care reform. the white house apparently waffling on the so-called public option. does that anger some of the president's core supporters here? michael vick at football practice again today. he says he cried many nights in prison, so does he deserve to be back? a live report on how the economy is taking the air out of the windy city. ♪ (announcer) transform your water. women who drink crystal light drink 20% more water. crystal light. make a delicious change.

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the white house seems to be backing out of health care reform. this weekend, president obama says it was only a sliver of his plans. kent conrad says the public

option really is just a waste of time. >> there are not the votes in the united states senate for the public option. there never have been, so to continue to chase that rabbit, i think is just a wasted effort. >> so no public option. how about health care co-op? that came up this weekend. with me now, ron christie, and chris kofinis. great to have you. let me ask you, chris, we saw kathleen sebelius this weekend talking about how it was a sliver of this option and then yet today, we have linda douglas saying nothing has changed and the president still thinks this is the best option. mixed signals? >> i'm not sure if it's mixed signals. i think what's happening is the significant piece of health care reform everybody agrees on, putting a cap on out of pocket

expenses is significant. people agree, i think most democrats and even a few republicans, that is always going to happen. now, the bigger question is in terms of insuring competition and bringing cost down, do we go with a co-op route or the public option route. i think that's where you're going to see a lot of debate and you're already seeing a lot of the debate and discussion among democrats and republicans. >> ron, it's interesting because when you hear republicans talking about health care reform, they indicate that yes, it would be nice if everyone had access to health insurance. what's so wrong with a public option? >> what a lot of republicans are concerned about with a public option, if you get the government involved with providing insurance coverage, it's ultimately going to destroy the private insurance market. one of the big fears we had was the fact that when you hear the

president up there saying that if people like their health care coverage, they can keep it, under a public option, that would not be true. you would have a system where the government would provide a list of qualified beneficial plans for employers to choose from and it could drive out private insurers. >> on that point, given the fact that the government already provides insurance to active military members, to medicare, anyone who gets medicare, that's a government option, to the federal employees. there's a lot of options available to federal employees that the government sponsors. it seems to work for millions. why not the rest of us? >> it works, but also doesn't work for several hundreds of thousands of others. if you look at the indian health service, you have a lack of very good quality health care options. if you look at medicare, that's

essentially talking about rationing services. if the government hasn't been able to do medicare properly, the indian health service properly, why should we have a public option? >> i mentioned a lot of people around the va system have problems with the way medical benefits are administered to our nation's veterans, so let me move on then to this option of co-op. there's been a lot of back and forth, chris, on co-ops. do you think that's something that democrats could then sell in terms of getting health reform passed? >> if the public option gets discarded, there's going to be people on the left who are very upset. so there's going to have to be some convincing. that's just speaking the truth. at the end of the day, public option or co-op, my perspective is simple. the american people want this crisis to be resolved.

costs go down and those who are not insured insured. if you lose your job, et cetera. my concern is coup does that, that's great, but if not, public option making more sense because from a political perspective, it makes much better sense to solve the problem than to make it a short term, political problem. >> here's howard dean. he was on "morning meeting" this morning. talking about the public option. >> you're pumping $60 billion a year into the private health insurance industry and that's an enormous mistake and hardly equals as reform. >> let's say you don't pump, ron, billions of dollars into health care reform. say you call it health insurance reform and all you do is mandate coverage that you're going to have to accept people with preexisting condition, but only

be able to charge so much for health insurance down the road. is that an idea that you think conservatives could support? >> i don't. it's putting the government at a position to pick winners and losers. when you have the government saying you have to take everybody with a preexisting coverage, you're going to kill the insurance market. what would be a better thing the you cannot buy insurance across state lines. let's allow those employers to purchase insurance across state lines, have a tax credit for people who are in need. there are many other options, but either a public option or nothing seems to be a congruent argument. >> do you like ron's ideas? >> no, because it doesn't solve the -- >> but, in terms of policy lines. >> yeah, that's not the problem. but here is the fundamental point.

what i find, looking into the republican argument, it doesn't make any sense because they will not come out and say they oppose medicare, medicaid or veteran's health care. what this is the political. if you look in terms of the policy itself, their argument also doesn't make sense because the notion of arguing is arguing against competition. competition that's going to force private insurers to run more efficiently. >> the point is that if you're not in it to make a profit, then you can undercut those who are and there by put them out of business. >> that's exactly right. >> in a logical way, that makes sense, but we have systems in place where the government is competing. but not competing very well. ron, chris, guys, thank you. president obama may pay a visit to ailing senator ted kennedy during his upcoming

vacation. the obamas are expected on the vineyard next week. no comment from kennedy's people or the president. michael vick is back on the practice field. he's getting used to his new philadelphia eagles teammates. the disgraced quarterback's been busy trying to rehab his image. part of the public relations push, his appearance on cbs 60 minutes last night. >> who do you blame for this? >> me. >> and the feeling you're feeling now is -- >> disgust. pure disgust. >> gene long is a "washington post" sports reporter. would you put michael vick on your fantasy football team? >> i certainly wouldn't. i think he has a long way to go

before he establishes himself as an elite quarterback again, but he is in a great situation at philadelphia. he has a lot of the stability there. he can take his time and get back into football shape. >> so here's donovan mcnabb from his blog. he says -- whether it's the olympics or super bowl or the nba championship games, the sports guys always play these really amazing redems stories. athletes who came back to redeem themselves. is this potentially another redemption story? >> it could be one of the biggest in football history. the eagles underwent one last

year with mcnabb. him and michael vick have been friends for a long time. he lobbied for vick to be on the team, so there's no concern about him losing his starting job. he just wants someone on the team to make it better. they've been winning because they know how to pick players like this and not pay them a lot of the money, but get the most value out of them. >> let me play another piece of this interview with "60 minutes." >> i knew, you know, the magnitude of the decisions that i made and the poor judgment and what i, you know, allowed to happen to the animals. and you know, it's no way of, you know, of explaining, you know, the hurt and the guilt that i felt and that was the reason i crashed so many nights. >> forget about everybody else, in philadelphia, is that sort of

an admission likely to resognate? >> i think when people heard they had signed mcnabb, a slight majority felt it was the wrong thing to do. now, i think that's kind of subsiding a bit now that's he's on the practice field. if he comes in when mcnabb gets hurt, mcnabb is not a young player, and if he produces, i think the fans in philadelphia will embrace him. >> you know, i went to syracuse university, so to hear that mcnabb is not a young player, oh, that hurts. >> i would say not young in nfl terms. >> and having lived in wisconsin with brett favre, really old man. thank you. up next, new video of michael jackson shopping with his children just before his death. there you're seeing the

rehearsal. and tom delay dances back into the limelight. we're going to explain after a quick break here. it's a... a fork? you're a wombat. ( doorbell rings ) honey, it's the pizza guy. sure. me again. okay, now this is the last te alright? thanks, you know we don't deliver anything like this. this crispy flatbread. mmmm. mmmmm! so delicious! are you like havin' a party or somethin'? ( slam ) hello? introducing the taste that's never been delivered. digiorno crispy flatbread pizza. for deliciously italian-inspired toppings on crispy flatbread crust, it's not delivery, it's digiorno. hello, i don't think we have met.

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have an update here on michael jackson. in a couple of hours, another probate hearing will be held on his estate. part of what might be discussed, a new line of clothing the king of pop was designing with ed hardy. we have exclusive video of the designs that jackson approved right before he died. jeff rossen is in burbank. seems like there is still money to be made now even after jackson's death. >> we were talking to some experts and some celebrities make more dead than

approve more deals today and now, this exclusive information that jackson was working on a clothing like with the lead designer for ed hardy, the popular brand. you can see some of the popular designs that michael jackson approved himself just before his death. now christian says he wants all of this to come out, the t-shirts, rhinestone socks and belts and all. he wants to work with the estate on it. he told us there are many, many designs he wants on the shelves. >> how many different michael

jackson designs do you have? >> 100. >> that's going to be a big part of the line. >> oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> he said there's no reason why the line shouldn't come out and also told us that michael jackson wasn't just a performer, but a pretty sure businessman and was heavily, heavily involved in the marketing of this line that of course, he would never see. >> thanks for the update. delta 2 soars into history. the rocket mission was launched today. they are used to send global positioning satellites into the orbit. the hit show, "dancing with the stars," brings together musicians and actors and now, politicians. former house majority leader, tom delay, will join the new season. in congress, he was known as the

hammer for coming down so hard on member of his own party, but criminal charges, accusations of corruption derailed his career. he was forced to step down. he's still facing a couple of criminal charges, but hey, "dancing with the stars" has revived other careers. look at mario lopez of "saved by the bell." who knows what could happen.

hello, everybody, i'm contessa brewer. why are we back on death panels? i mean, who in the world honestly believes you reach an advanced age and get put down like an old racehorse? and yet, the president has to keep reiterating. >> it would give you all the

information you need if you want it, to put you in control of your ziss. >> joining us now, anne kornb t kornblut. is sarah palin getting a lot of mileage on health care reform? >> yeah, it's pretty surprising because she left her job as the governor of alaska and has been able to really push this debate in the direction she wanted. which is to talk about government control and focus on end of life issues, two things that have gotten merged. what we've seen as you pointed out, was the white house having to respond to that, having to explain it to people who are scared. as a result, diverting attention from what they wanted to talk about, which was controlling costs of health care. they're trying to get the debate

back to those three things, but had to talk about death panels for three days. >> when they talk about delt panels, they're talking about paying doctors who are consu consulting with patients over living wills and their final wishes. even senator -- let me play what senator grassley had to say. >> there's some fear because the house bill, there's counseling for end of life and from that standpoint, you have every right to fear. you shouldn't have counseling at the end of life. you should have it 20 years before you're going to die. we should not have a government program that determines when to pull the plug on grandma. >> again, the government doesn't have a plan on when to pull the

plug on grandma. number two, do you think we're focussing on that part of the debate, even as senator grassley said, you should be having these counseling sessions 20 years earlier. are we missing the point that living wills are something we all should consider no matter how old we are. >> those comments are pretty baffling to the white house. he's there taking talking points that pretty much incite debate. conservatives, republicans have talked in the past about end of life counseling, having end of life wills -- >> even sarah palin, as governor in april 2008, encouraged alaskans to seek out counseling services for these important decisions. >> but i think what's happened is there's been an inflation of two ideas. these two ideas have somehow

gotten merged together so that we're talking about death panels, but i think that's why you're seeing the white house push back saying this isn't going to happen. >> i appreciate you clearing it up. it's hurricane season. let's get a check now on the stormy weather. claudette dumping rain on the deep south. in southwest florida, residents are cleaning up after a tornado ripped through the area. about 23 homes were damaged. meanwhile, hurricane bill is churning in the atlantic and picking up strength. it's still thousands of miles away from the u.s., but it's still big. firefighters are gaining ground on two large wildfires in california. the fire is now 67% contained. another in yuba county is 25%

contained about burn about five square miles. on the calendar today is august 17th. in chicago though, it's like new year's eve because the city's saving money by shutting down some of its services. peter alexander is there. what, for instance, are they shutting down to save money? >> reporter: sure doesn't feel like new year's eve. suffice to say a lot of people are left out in the cold today. if they were hoping to get paid going to work, it is an unpaid day of sorts. one of those mandatory furloughs. that means city hall is shut down. sanitation isn't coming to work today. important to note though, 911, emergency services will still be there to answer. fire and police are not taking the day off. not the same is true for the

public libraries and health clinics. we'll put up on your screen the three days this year the city is doing this. they are today, the first one. the second one is the friday after thanksgiving and finally, christmas eve. the goal, to save $8.3 million. some aren't complaining, others are frustrated. it's money they could use right now. but when you consider the fact that just last month, chicago laid off 400 city employees, many that work for the city are still happy to have their job. >> looks like the others who are at work today, meter maids? >> yep. that means you can still get a parking ticket. don't wor arworry. the city is still looking to make money. there's a guy with a boot on his car and no luck. the car's sitting in the driveway for a little longer. >> thanks. new reports out of great

britain stirring fear in the united states about a neurological problem and the swine flu vaccine. health officials are warning doctors of a vaccine linked to 25 deaths in the '70s. they are linked to a disorder that can lead to paralysis or death. a new study out of d.c. finds more than a third of photos in women's magazines show babies sleeping in unsafe positions and environments. so we have the video for example. what you're not supposed to do, put a baby to bed with a blanket. doctors recommend babies be placed on their backs with no bedding or stuffed animals. many parenting magazines though

show cozy scenes of babies. up next, you've enjoyed reading their magazine for over 85 years and now, they've filed for bankruptcy. and we're fact checking the back and forth, those viral e-mails that i'm getting. are you getting them? >> yep. >> all right. we're going to get through those just ahead. with my new netbook from at&t. with its built-in 3g network, it's fast and small, so it goes places other laptops can't. i'm bill kurtis, and wherever i go, i've got plenty of room for the internet. and the nation's fastest 3g network. gun it, mick. (announcer) sign up today and get a netbook for $199.99 after mail-in rebate. with built-in access to the nation's fastest 3g network. only from at&t. nation's fastest 3g network. pothole:h no...your tire's all flat and junk.

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welcome back to msnbc. so i know that there's a lot of back and forth on health care reform. while we're waiting for lawmakers to come up with a concise, cohesive piece of legislation to talk about, many of us are getting e-mails that get forwarded on and on and on, that sometimes contain a lot of the misinformation. got an e-mail from somebody that i love and i'm going to go through it and fact check the information in there.

joining me now is adrian. good to see you. this e-mail that i got says, it was a bulletin of health care legislation. it points out on page 42, the health choices commissioner will decide choices for you. you will have no choices. true or false? >> i think what they're trying to say is that the house-passed bill would inject government into a lot of decision. i've not heard that terminology, but it certainly that has potential to inject more of it. some of this stuff is kind of pumped up, but i think that some of it is also kind of distorted. >> okay, so this is a wait and see. okay, page 50. all non-u.s. citizens, illegal

or not, will be provided with free health care services. >> another wait and see, but most likely, i mean, the l lawmakers i've seen have gone to great lengths to say they will not be delivering these services to illegal immigrants, so it's hard to imagine that would be in a final agreement. >> page 59. the federal government will have direct, realtime access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer. >> there's been a lot of talk about making the system more ip friendly, but that was in the context of moving patients' records around so you don't need three sets of test results. again, this is the kind of thing where people are maybe spinning it into another realm. >> the president took great pains to say the government

would not have access to your bank account. next, the government would cover family therapy. true or false? >> i have not seen something using that terminology before. they have been talking as we discussed before x about paying medicare to deal with end of life counseling decisions, but that seems to be off the table. now at least if you listen to some of the senators who are involved in doing a bipartisan plan. >> but if that logic lends true, doesn't that then lead us to the conclusion that if your insurance covers marriage therapy, then insurance companies are interfering in your marriage? >> well, i mean, i think what they're trying to do, again, create the spector of a big, government-run health care plan. the fact is, we don't know yet, even if there is going to be a government plan, we saw the white house back off of that

this weekend. it's kind of -- you know, a lot of this is speculative and a lot of it is based on people's fears of privacy. we have one, not very concise bill out of the white house so far, so so much of this is wait and see. >> i think, i agree. can i ask you about something you're tweeting about on twitter? >> sure. >> it's the justice department, or the obama administration filing new papers saying that the defense of marriage act discriminates against gays, yet at the same time, the justice department is defending the act. what is going on? >> this is a court filing where a gay couple in california are trying to over turn the law. basically, the justice department has to continue defending this case if it believes the law is constitutional, but it agreed in a filing today that it could be discriminatory.

it's one of those things you see in a lengthy legal filing. the obama administration's position on this has really antagonized the gay community and i'm sure this won't clear this up. >> thank you. today, a new signal that the worst of the housing slump could be over. new numbers. let's go to diana. >> the nation's homebuilders are gaining confidence cautiously. the survey rose from 17 to 18. going up is a good thing, but 50 is actually the line between positive and negative sentiment, so we've still got a ways to go. the survey measured three areas of confidence. current sales traffic, which is flat right now. current traffic, which bumped up three points. then, ek peckations over the

next six months. that's a good sign that builders expect to see sales be much better than in the past six months. the first-time home buyers credit, that tax credit expires on november 30th, so the question is going to be once that is done, will they be able to keep up this kind of momentum. >> thank you. and take a look at this. a camera man in taiwan almost swept away. the camera man was covering the aftermath of a deadly typhoon and was trying to cross a flooding creek. fortunately, some locals helped rescue him. we'll be right back. achoo! (announcer) what are you going to miss when you have an allergy attack? achoo! (announcer) benadryl is more effective than claritin at relieving your rst mptoms.

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following breaking news from

the justice department, we found out they have arrested a well-known computer hacker, albert gonzalez. he and two others have been arrested, accused of stealing 130 million credit and debit card numbers from places like 7/11 and a grocery star chain. they would go in and figure out which were the big companies and even go to these retail locations and check and see what kind of machines they were using in order to steal these numbers. again, he's a well-known hacker. he and two others with their accuse of the largest single reported data breach in u.s. history. we'll have much more on this on msnbc. in the middle of all the

resent town hall fury, a university of colorado student calling for a little bit of logic. the 23-year-old is challenging the president to an oxford-style debate. >> in the world, can a private corporation providing insurance compete with the entity that does not have to worry about making a profit, does not have to pay local property taxes, not subject to local regulations. >> we are working on a series of proposals to address the questions you're raising. i believe that we can work them out. but those are specific questions as opposed to broad, philosophical questions about whether government has a role to play or not. >> zack lane is a senior studying political science. nice to see you today. did the president answer your question to your satisfaction?

>> the answer he gave me is what you played and i'm happy they played that because it's what we hear a lot is that we're looking into it. the fact is, at the rate they're trying to push this bill down our throats, we need answers. >> the president spent about four minutes answering your question and says if you want to talk about how private companies compete with the government, look at the post office. i mean, fedex and ups are doing very welcol competing against t post office. >> it's not apples to an princip they compete on packages. >> right -- i get that it's

comparing different systems of delivery and you're delivering different products, but you have a private entity competing against a public entity and somehow that competition happens and works. in fact, their vesting -- >> it works, contessa, let me say something -- >> let me finish, please, since we're going to have a logical style debate. since you're having the post office compete, fedex and ups are actually vesting the ups of this delivery of letters. >> so your definition of works is that the public sector can't compete and it's failing to provide what they need? closing down thousands of branchs, that's working? >> the example you used is that if you have public competing against private, that somehow is private entities are at the disadvantage and my point is

that it doesn't like like fedex and ups are at a disadvantage because it's the post office that's falling. >> if you would have listened to my first point, fedex and ups can't send a 40 cent letter to alaska and make money. the reason the government does it is because they can get it subsidized by us taxpayers and our government is happy to lose money on things. i have a question. can i ask you a question? >> no. because that's the end of my show and -- over my time. that wraps up this hour for me. david schuster and monica novotny pick things up next. co-op versus public option. they'll examine the two side by side in the health care debate.

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option, this is not worth pouring a trillion dollars into. we're not going to be able to control cost without a public option. >> public option, doa. did the white house cave into pressure? will a watered down bill save the nation's health care crisis? tropical triple threat. it's bill that's the real concern. it could be a major hurricane by the end of the weak and could be on a path to hit the east coast. "alienation," the number one movie at the box office this weekend, but this is not make believe. we'll tell you about the new mission to find out whether we'll really alone in the universe. and what do bill clinton, levy johnson and the skirl have in common? good afternoon, everybody. i'm david schuster live in washington. >> good to be with you,