organization's support for health care reform. that could be interesting to see how that develops. >> thank you. a few folks here today. lynn sweet, the last time you were here, it was the arlen specter town hall, and you got to say hello and good by. and hopefully we get more out of you today. and jonathan capehart, and anthony wiener. a quote from you from the huffington post. what do you mean by this? >> the fact of the matter is we are in the bind because of the rapid growth of health care cost. that's true of all health care. and we are saying to health care companies, taking your 15% of profit and don't put it for tax

cuts or patients. the problem is we need some force, some government force that can get us altogether as a group and say we are going to negotiate for lower prices. that's what the public plan is all about. >> totally understood. i guess what confuses me a bit is why the best way to go about doing that is to create a government-run health care company as opposed to things that would make for other competitive markets for health insurance and for those that cannot afford it? >> well, we don't need to create government -- >> i misspoke. the only way to fight the government is to use a public option, or do we have enough control in the government where we can create more competitive markets for health care? >> the government does not have much control over the health

care industry right now. we here in new york city have a lot more choices. there is not a lot of competition. i put it to you this way. how much true competition is there, when you go to york wour workplace, and -- >> well, is the public option the only way to create the choice? >> allowing health care companies to create competition among themselves has not worked out particularly well, because for individual consumers, they have one choice. everybody has a single payer whether they call it that or not. it's their pocket or medicare or medicaid. the best example i make of this is walmart. walmart is able to offer its customers $4 prescriptions. they go and say they have a buyer pool, and we will pay 4

bucks. why don't we do that? let's just say medicare for more people. put it that way. >> how is this playing in the house? how upset are people in the house about any indication of backing away from the public option? >> a lot of people buy the argument that only by having true competition can you have lower prices. i don't think insurance companies will take care of this problem on their own. and the fact of the matter is, who is the white house negotiating with? are there any republicans now that say if you do a, b or c we will sign on? grassley is the guy negotiating the bill. >> how do you fix for that? in other words, how do you elevate the conversation between the president and the democrats and the republicans from public option or nothing, to public option and something else? >> the president has to say i believe in a public option, and

maybe he doesn't -- >> he did not say that. >> you are saying what should happen? i would like him to support my single player plan, and he doesn't. he should stick to his guns and say that's what i want. if republicans suddenly appear and say that's what i want. there may be negotiating. and the american people understood the idea that their insurance company is right now taking a lot of money in their own pockets for profit and over head. >> i understand that. going back to the earlier conversation, which is it concerns me the only way to force a competitive market for health insurance is to create a health insurance company. not because i have a view on health insurance, because it suggests to me our government is able to create free and competitive markets -- >> here is the problem. the problem with free and competitive markets is this is not something you can shop around for? >> you do it in congress.

>> well, we are the exception. and who is the employer for congress? taxpayers. now, if you really want to offer that to every american, we really bankrupt the federal government. and then the question is, are we really prepared to say some people like other commodities and won't be able to get it. and the answer is no, we pay for them whether it's inefficiently or not. we, the taxpayers, end up page for it. >> lynn, are you there? >> yes, and i have a question. i want to make something crisper. if i am hearing you right, you want the barack obama white house to negotiate for the democratic family for whom you can make a deal, you control the house, and he should work within the family, and not go overboard in seeking republican votes that probably are not there and work out the differences that way. that's what you are advising the white house? >> that's exactly right.

i will not put it as partisan as republican or democrats. i think what a lot want is competition and more choices for themselves. i think the notion somehow swing democrats or conservatives will lose their seats is missed. if president obama sticks to his guns and the principles of these outlines, i think they will gain streets and not lose them. >> to follow on the flip side of lynn's question, focusing on the house where the democrats have a huge majority and can pass anything at once, and then you go to the senate where there is a lot of unease about the plans, how do you reconcile the two? is it possible you can vote health care reform down if the conference bill does not have a public option or anything that comes close to that? >> well, no votes for the obama plan, or the co-op plan, or no votes for my plan. right now nobody has 218 votes,

which is why presidential leadership, jonathan s. so important right now. it's important that he sticks to his guns. i believe my plan of having medicare for all americans is a simple plan that everybody understands and it's based on a foundation -- >> what are the cost implications of that? i think the president said listen, we will bend the curve, and the budget office said not by our math you won't bend the curve, and in general the ruling parties are going to the cbo and saying it works, and then they say no. >> when you talk about the expense of the bill, it ignores the fact that we in new york pay $3 million for the uninsured. we are not paying for that any more. there is no doubt about it that you are going to -- hopefully what we can do is take the existing amount of money that we pay, and pay it more efficiently. don't pay the uninsured, give

them insurance, and we wind up paying less in the long run. what have we done here if it didn't help? >> thank you for this conversation. enjoy your day. contessa, what is going on out there? >> we are watching breaking news from the housing market. construction of new homes fell slightly by 1%. and it says the recovery from the housing is likely to be become e bumpy and gradual. breaking news out of afghanistan. a deadly suicide car bombing. the blast comes two days before the 10th presidential elections there in afghanistan. nbc news chief correspondent, richard engel, joins us. what are you learning about the attack? >> reporter: nato confirmed one

of the convoys was attacked and there were nato casualties among the killed and injured. according to afghan officials, at least seven civilians killed and 40 injured. this attack claimed by the taliban took place on the outskirts of kabul where there are several u.s. and military naval basis. it's the key supply route used by all of the military personnel when they move between bases and it's one of the most frequently targeted places here in kabul. the taliban said it will pick up attacks leading to elections on thursday. it's trying to disrupt the vote, and so far it has shown that it has been able to carry out attacks right in the center of kabul in what are normally highly secured areas. >> richard, thank you for staying on top of it for us. hurricane bill has maximum

sustained winds at 100 miles per hour, and it's expected to grow. what are you looking at in terms of protectory here for bill? >> well, you can see on the satellite perspective the eyewall regenerating itself over and over again. that's a sign of it gaining strength. this storm is expected to make into a category 3 hurricane in the next 24 to 48 hours. the pressure continues to fall. that's another sign of strengthening. the movement important. west northwest. we look for it to change to a more northerly path. we will take the storm well into the waters of the atlantic, and then making a direct line for

bermuda. it looks like it will stay away from the u.s. coast. >> this is the heart of hurricane season, and this is to be expected. >> thank you contessa. much more here on the "morning meeting." it's the biggest i.d. theft ever. how can one man steal more than 130 million dibit and credit card numbers, especially when he was caught doing it before? tom delay, dancing with the stars, perhaps a brilliant move by the folks at abc to get cable folks like myself to talk about it. it's working. we are back after this. my guys brush their teeth like they clean their room. i'm glad anticavity listerine® smart rinse™ attracts stuff like a magnet, then shows it in the sink. ewww. gross.

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well, prosecutors calling it the largest identity left ever. three people charged. contessa has the news. >> this was a rising star in the cyber underground. 28-year-old gonzalez launched the scheme. he stole 130 million credit and debit card numbers from 2006 to 2008. and authorities didn't have very far to go to find gonzalez. he was already behind bars. the secret service informant is also waiting trial on charges that he swiped 40 million credit

card numbers? >> he did this from jail? >> no, he previously had done this. they caught him because he was swiping the credit card numbers from other merchants. they caught him on that scam. and then they wrapped up the investigation into the bigger scamp involves the mini maurts and credit card payment company. >> we are joined by kevin mitnik. this is a fact. he served five years in prison, and he was at one point the most wanted computer criminal in the world -- >> hi, kevin. he is there. >> they convinced the judge you could start a nuclear war by whistling in the pay phone, and that's a quote. you cannot use any technology

but a land line phone once being released from jail. how poorly protected are we? >> well, obviously a lot of big brands vulnerable on the internet. it's an arms race. a company that tries to secure their networks and infrastructure, and hackers keep breaking in. >> if you were to look at the most recent crime, and particularly when you look at the recurrence of it, do you have a sense of a, how he did this, and b, why would they let him back out knowing that he already had done this twice before? >> well, i think in the recent case, he was charged with the tj max hack, and while he was in jail and they were conducting on going investigations, they realized he was part of the other criminal acts as well.

how he was able to break in a lot of these systems was by exploiting a vulnerability. when you go to a website and you have to fill out a form, sometimes the programmers don't write that application security so the hackers can manipulate how that program works by putting in special characters into the form. >> special characters like princeness new name, like lines? >> no, certain characters, and they manipulate how the program works so the hacker gain access. >> how do we protect ourselves from this, from people that can do this, like you? >> what businesses need to do is audit the web applications and have them tested by ethical hack turs, and consumers need to watch their credit card

statements. you can put fraud alerts on your account. any transaction, say, over $10, you can have it send you a text message on your cell phone. any fraud that happens on your account, you will find out immediately and you can call your card immediately and cancel your card. >> is there a tell tale sign for a hacker? >> how do i know if i am dealing with a ethical hacker as opposed to an unethical one? >> do a background check and look at the work they have done lately? >> you don't wear a special pair of sneakers if you are an ethical. ignore me, kevin. thank you for the information. we appreciate it. we will plug in straight ahead here on the "morning meeting," contessa, in the world of politics. now, the infamous joker

poster of the president. the "morning meeting" rolls on. we are back with you only and exclusively on msnbc right after this. paws. check. bottom. needs work. sorry, son. [ female announcer ] you can't pass inspection with pieces left behind. it's soft and more durable. so you're left with a more dependable clean. fewer pieces left behind. new charmin ultra strong. introducing the all new chevy equinox. with an epa estimated 32 miles per gallon. and up to 600 miles between fill ups. it's the most fuel efficient crossover on the highway. better than honda cr-v, toyota rav4 and even the ford escape hybrid. the all new chevy equinox.

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welcome back. what are the stories we are looking at here? >> remember the obama posters that made him look like the joker from "the dark knight." >> was it an evil right wing conspiracy? >> no, it was a young guy, and he took the cover portrait of obama and up loaded it to flicker. and all of a sudden, somebody removes the link that says i took this from "time" magazine, and put the word socialism under

it. here is a 20-year-old history major, the l.a. times is reporting that he is a palestinian arab american and socialists himself. imagine the irony that his portrait of obama was co-oped and used as a white wing symbol. >> it's really a college kid with a computer? >> yeah, we don't know who took the photo from flicker -- >> who ever took it was politically useful at the time, i am sure. >> speaking of online sharing sites like twitter -- >> you are an addict -- >> god is on twitter? >> he is everywhere. you send a message to a guy on

tweeter, and his name is zeke hotel, and you can send a prayer, and he will prinlt it out and put it in the wall. >> you twitter him and he will print what you twitter him and take it into the western wall in israel. yeah, he placed 1,000 rolled up prayers in the wall already. >> is this something he is doing, or charging for this? >> no, i think this guarantees him a way to heaven, if you believe in salvation by works. i may be getting too theological. >> we will leave it with twitter, and a piece of paper and a wall. >> i highly encourage prayer by twitter. >> maybe one on the commercial. coming up in the second half hour, there may be folks hoping

for the public option, and sending prayers themselves right now as the co-op continues to at least garner conversation. as an alternative, we will get perspective from the health care co-op that has been running successfully more than 50 years, and more than 100 million patients. how does it work? could it work on a national level? the ceo of the health care co-op with us right here after this. ld not enough sleep. what i wouldn't do for a do-over. (announcer) new neutrogena total skin renewal. gentle exfoliating puffs and micro-vibrations speed surface cell turnover. it's clinically tested to help undo the look of a year's worth of skin aging in just one week. that summer of sun? i just made it disappear. (announcer) new total skin renewal. neutrogena recommended most by dermatologists. do-overs do exist.

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good morning and welcome back. it's a lovely tuesday in august. how are you? it's time to reset the agenda this half hour. several democrats firing back on the talk of no option. many say they will not vote for a bill if the public option is not in it. coming up, we will ask obama's former commerce secretary and former republican center judd gregg where he stands. and a so-called gang of six, those six senators because of the states they are from represent only 3% of the population of america, so why are they making the decisions on the health care bill for the entire u.s. senate? "so you think you can

dance." this time with tom delay. "dancing with the stars." we will discuss this, because why wouldn't we? and the opening bell on wall street, and next hour we are talking about the president's pay czar threatening to claw back ceo bonuses paid to executives over the past few years, who prospered, of course, building the world's largest credit bubble. now try making this argument to democratic leaders, and it doesn't go so well. an update on the debate? >> democrats are speaking about the apparent shift from the white house. there is a flury of news releases. nancy pelosi said they agree the public option will create

competition. the cochair of the congressional progressive caucus says real reform cannot be accomplished without a robust public option. and then there was wisconsin senator, feingold that says passing health care reform in name only, something that he says is not interested in doing. that brings us back to the most heated debate in august. can the president side with insurance co-ops. i know we will talk more about what co-ops bring to the table. >> let's do it now. lynn sweet, and jonathan capehart here, and daonna zimmerman. it's a co-op, and donna, welcome to the program. tell us exactly what your business is and how it works and how it's different from, say, a more traditional health insurance company?

>> thank you very much. yes, health partners is the largest consumer governed health care organization in the country. we have over 1 million members. we are regionally situated in the midwest. importantly, the health partners is an integrated organization meaning we have health care delivery systems, and we employ over 600 doctors, and we have three hospitals. we integrate the financing aspect of health care along with health care delivery. as you mentioned, our history and routes go back to the cooperative movement. we were a co-op that was formed in 1957. >> i will stop you there. i think that's where people get confused. what does that mean? from a patient standpoint, because the debate is this, can we trust -- can the health insurance companies get to a fair price for health insurance

simply by having to complete with some form of a national co-op, or do we need a public health insurance company from the u.s. government to force the health insurance companies to a more competitive environment? help us to see how a co-op works and would it be a viable competitor? >> well, i think it could be a competitive competitor depending on how the rules are written for the game. what would be the key rules? >> you want to have a level playing field for all competitors in the marketplace, and you would want to have states' insurance laws also respected, so you don't do anything that would erode coverage that already exist in the region where the co-op is operating. keep in mind, too, the most

important thing about co-ops, they create a solution for a problem. in this case if the problem is looking for expanded coverage, more choices in health care, and for more affordable choices. >> i want to talk about some of the key successes that are attributed to your organization. one, a dramatic reduction in tobacco use among your members, and i aassuming tobacco reduction is down. and millions of dollars in savings for generic drugs, and then this is the real interesting thing, financial incentives for high-risk patients to get healthier. what is that third item? is that something that only a co-op could do? could a health insurance company do that or public option do that? >> i think the benefit of the nonprofit model that we have at health partners is we have a consumer-governed board. we have members all members of the health plan and having

health and wellness at the top of our agenda, creating benefit plans that encourage people to be healthy, and it's really why we are as successful as we are. every decision that we make as a group is very much a part of our board of directors leading the way, and we are thinking of the best -- what is best for both members and patients. we think a nonprofit model is very, very important to consider. but i think the most important thing that we have to remember is that when we are talking about expanding coverage, we also need to be talking about delivery system reform, and some of the things that you cited about health partners, we think those are models the rest of the country should follow. if we truly transform health care in the delivery system, it will be more affordable and we will have more choices and be able to cover more people. >> lynn? >> i have two specific questions. do you pay -- are your doctors

directly employed by the co-op, or do you do contracts with them? if so are your rates that you negotiate higher than the medicare rates that are paid for other minnesota regional doctors? >> our doctors are employed directly by health partners. when i mentioned we had 600 physicians employed, but we also contract with over 30,000 other providers. so we are -- we both have a network model as well as our own doctors. >> could somebody join your plan, not through their employer? that is a big deal to people. >> yes. >> you can? that's a very different selling point. and are the doctors that you have to contract, are your negotiated rates the same or higher than what medicare pays them? >> in general, in our region of the country, medicare rates are very low. we are one of those high quality

low medicare paid states. in general in our marketplace, we pay physicians and our contracted physicians, we have to pay at higher levels than medicare pays, because they are artificially low in the marketplace. that's one of the things that we actually hope will happen with the health care reform, we will begin to look at different ways to pay for medicare, and we will address what really is an equity in how health care is paid across the nation. >> jonathan? >> could health care such as yours to ramp up and to scale to compete with insurance companies on a national level? one of the knocks against co-ops is sometimes they don't work, and they have not worked? >> again, i think there is not a lot known about what will actually be in the senate finance bill about the rules and regulations about how the co-ops will function. again, that will determine whether they will be able to

compete or not compete. but we also think that perhaps the one size fits all solutions is not the way to go. in many ways, health care is very locally driven. again, in minnesota, we have organized medical group practice, and a way of doing things that does result in the high quality out comes, and, you know, co-ops are probably better locally or regionally based. >> are you concerned something could hamper what you are trying to achieve? >> yes, we are concerned something could hamper what happens here in minnesota. that would be in a government plan was based off of the medicare payment system, it would very much unfairly damage health care providers in

minnesota as well as health plans being able to offer product because of the low rates that are paid to places like minnesota. >> that was my point i was making in asking you that, because that's one of the concerns people have when they talk about meshing different systems, is that one of the ways that you do save money is by driving down the payments, and you are aware of that there? >> i want to follow-up on the point. do you feel, donna, you have seen overall medical costs in minnesota come down because you exists? >> yes, we certainly do believe that is the case. our own medical group, the health partners medical group, when we think about minnesota being 20% to 30% less expensive on a medicare basis than the rest of the country, our own medical group if we measure it on the total cost of health care services, not just on a basis

that -- well, we have a market basis that we claim that we successfully raised the bar. >> i am running on the clock. but if people wanted to learn more, myself included, jonathan and everybody else, where should we go on the internet to learn more about what you guys are doing? >> well, you certainly could come to the website, healthpartners.com. you will learn about what we do and stand for in public policy and the types of programs and services that we offer as well as our really great results. >> donna, thank you for taking the time to begin the process of educating us, and those that are watching here on msnbc this morning, how it is that a co-op functio functions.

contessa, what else is going on? >> breaking news coming to us from phoenix. kpnx is over the scene. phoenix police found two very young children they believe were kid naps from their homes this morning. four guys reportedly barge into this house, and they take -- look, you can see right there -- do you see the officer holding the 2-year-old boy who they say was kidnapped, and also an 11-month-old girl. they suspected this might have been some sort of armed robbery. they said they believe the mother did not know the suspects. imagine the fright and furry to have the children ripped out of a home by four strangers and they drove away in a suv, dark-tinted windows. they were dropped off -- the kids were found several miles from where they are taken. now you can see both of the children, and i am sure their mother will be very, very relieved and anxious to get them

back in her arms. by the way, they are still looking for the suspects. i am looking for details, but so far no details if they were on the sidewalk there waiting for the officers to find them, or how they were found. when i get details i will pass those along. a former sunday schoolteacher broke down in tears after hearing an indictment. huckabee was indicted after she was charged with kidnapping and raping her neighbor, sandra cantu. she was found in a suitcase at an irrigation pond near her neighborhood. what is next, george? >> contessa, what is next is more court appearances leading up to trial. huckabee was in charges when she heard the charges, charges that could put her on death row. she had scratched on her forehead and arm, apparently

from resisting to go to court. the judge said there was some trouble getting her to court and ordered her to be present at all future court hearing. huckab she was in a lot of stress. >> i am glad the judge said she would have to appear to every one of the court dates. that should not keep her -- she did a lot worse, don't you agree? so a little few scratches should not matter. >> her next court appearance is september the 10th. the prosecution is pressing the judge to set a trial date early. contessa? >> george lewis, thank you for that. coming up, dna evidence has become a key, as we know to,

solving cases. what if dna evidence was fabricated? scientists now say it can be done. the details next right here on msnbc. i did not like suffering from nasal allergy symptoms like congestion. but nasonex relief may i say... bee-utiful! prescription nasonex is proven to help relieve indoor and outdoor nasal allergy symptoms like congestion, runny and itchy nose and sneezing. (announcer) side effects were generally mild and included headache. viral infection, sore throat, nosebleeds and coughing. ask your doctor about symptom relief with nasonex. and save up to $15 off your refills. go to nasonex.com for details, terms and conditions. introducing listerine total care. everything you need... to strengthen teeth, help prevent cavities, and kill germs. introducing 6 in 1 listerine total care. the most complete mouthwash. but i've still got room for the internet.

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but when it comes to our bones, we both look to reclast. you've gotta ask your doctor! or call 1-866-51-reclast. year-long protection for on-the-go women. welcome back. turns out dna evidence, they say, can be faked according to researchers in israel. they show that if they got access to a dna profile in a database of a computer, they could make up a dna sample to match the profile without obtaining any tissue from the person in question. scary stuff. on the phone, dna expert, lawrence koblinski. how difficult is this to do? >> it's an amazing accomplishment. it's really an engineering

thing. what was done is, for example, a blood specimen taken from a woman had all the white blood cells cells. to that sample was added dna obtained from a male through phenomenon amplification. basically they transferred the male dna into the female blood which lacked female dna. and the result was a blood sample that contained the male's dna. in other words, they have fabricated a blood stain and that is very dangerous in a sense, because if you find that at a crime scene, you will identify somebody there who has not been there. >> right, for sure. the obvious question is does this rule out dna evidence and if it does, what does that do to the criminal justice system? at least modern version of it.

>> no. dna is the gold standard and, quite frankly, if somebody wanted to plant evidence, they could take, for example, a cup you drank out of and leave that at a crime scene to cause confusion for the police. a planting of evidence has been an issue for decades now, and this does not change that. i think it's a very interesting engineering accomplishment and i think we have to be careful how we interpret evidence, but by, no means does it destroy the ability of dna to identify perpetrators of horrible crimes. >> so to be clear this is another version of tampering. >> precisely. >> in the 21st century sense. tampering and planting of evidence. you know, we're aware of that. >> yeah. >> this is not going to change criminal justice. >> one of our producers is concerned about what this might do to "csi." >> no, it's going to be up there

with measures and methods of samples. no problem. the perp will be caught. >> thank you, professor. we will head to the break room and toure is here and so to is contessa and judd gregg coming up at the top of the 10:00 hour but dancing with delay still to come. disgraced former house majority leader trading in his suits and ties for spandex and tights with "dancing with the stars." the delay factor coming up.

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. course, our friend to him delay front and center in this break room. toure is here with the details the great danceoff. >> break room with one story because only one story big enough for the break room today. what do stars do when the heat waves and flashbulbs stopping popping? they go to "dancing with the stars." we will enjoy next season tom "hammer" delay who resigned from congress in '06 after being indicted on violating campaign finance laws. here is delay talking this morning about why he is doing the show. >> conservatives can have fun, too, you know? >> yeah.

>> yeah. conservatives can let their hair down and open their collar and put on some dancing shoes and get out there on the floor just like the rest of them. >> they most certainly can. delay is tangle along football legend michael irvin and singer macy gray and kelly osbourne and "dancing with the stars" has been a fun way to freshen up your brand and takes courage and humility to do that stuff which is why you will never catch my man dylan off the show. it's not just fun. people get about $200,000 for being on the show. very nice parting gift. >> there was speculation by our executive producer is brilliant, okay? she speculated and said abc did this so "dancing with the stars" would become conversation at all of the channels. this is a way to get the cable guys talking. we're in charge. >> you think our viewers are a

little more than "dancing with the stars" viewers? >> i get confused. >> bill carter and the times said they wanted dan quayle. >> really? >> that would have been interesting. >> why wouldn't he do it? >> they didn't say whether or not they actually asked him. you know? we don't want to step on people's toes sort of thing but that would have been interesting. they've been want ago politician and finally got one. we'll see how the hammer does! i think debi mazar and michael irvin have to be the odds on favorite, athletic. >> sarah palin would be fun. >> she would be fun but she is fun at everything she does! >> still ahead, second hour of the "morning meeting," does president obama's abandoning of the public option in order to get some republicans on board help his cause or hurt him? we will talk with obama's former commerce secretary pick and current republican senator, member of the wyden/bennett

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all right. good morning to you. nice to see you. welcome back to the second hour of the "morning meeting." resetting our agenda for the hour. public option do or die. some democrats threatening to torpedo health care reform altogether if there is no public option in the bill. but will the public option kill any chance of any gop support for that very bill? we will ask republican senator judd gregg in a second. small states, big players. why do the six senators in charge of coming up with a senate bill, why do those people represent less than 3% of our population and why do they have the biggest say so in health care reform? then taking back bonuses that may well have been ill gotten. the president's pay czar threatening to claw back bonuses

that bailed out banks. is this not the same as foreclosing on a house you couldn't afford to own? we'll have that conversation. rallying the gun lobby. guns are showing up at rallies and town halls across the country. is this just free speech? or an idiotic powder keg waiting for a match to light it? it is 10:00 a.m. pull up a chair and join the "morning meeting." the white house willingness to back off of that public option for health care, some democrats up in arms this morning and many threatening in fact, a revolt. nbc news white house kort savannah guthrie live with the latest. hi, savannah. >> dylan, how are you doing? we're getting push-back this morning. i walked out of an on the record off the camera briefing with press secretary robert gibbs who says there has been no change in the administration's position about the public option. he says we've been boringly consistent on this. while the preference is for a

public option what they want is more choice and more competition and think public option is the best way to go and deny they were in any way trying to send a signal over or otherwise to members of congress that perhaps the public option wasn't part of the final bill. they say their position has been clear all along. note, however, their position isn't that the public option itself a deal-breaker. they remain open to whatever increase choice in competition. you know many liberal members of congress have been upset about this. listen to congressman anthony wiener on your show a moment ago. >> a lot of people buy the argument that only by having true competition can you keep down prices and i don't think anyone believes that the insurance companies are going to take care of this problem on their own. >> well, as i said it's not just congressman wiener but speaker pelosi coming out with a statement yesterday reiterating her option for a public option and senator feingold saying the following.

now you have a position where the white house is having to calm and tamp down concern among the liberal members of the democratic party, so health care reform, the battle continues. >> thank you, snaen. joining the conversation is senator judd gregg and former commerce secretary pick for the president before the senator withdrew from consideration. he is not a fan of the plan he sees coming out of congress right now and has made that clear in a series of op-eds and is a sponsor of wyden/bennett, one proposal coming out of the senate but not coming out of the key location which is out of senator maximum baucus' office and that gang of six. welcome to the conversation, senator. tell us your opinion on the public option verse co-op public option conversation that sparked up over the weekend. >> i do think the white house changed their position and sort of disingenuous for them so say they're not. they started out strongly committed to a public option which is understandable because the president said he is for a

single opinion hay payer system. they basically mean the government sets the price and the government sets the care standards and when you get into that type of a system, you're getting into a system like they have in canada or in england where, basically, certain procedures are rationed, they're delayed. if you reach a certain age, you don't qualify for certain procedures. and prices are controlled and, therefore, innovation is stifled and new drugs don't come online and you don't see those companies producing a lot of new drugs. >> sdhaent rationing sort of already exist? now it's at the health insurance companies level. we ration health insurance if you can't pay for it, and the health insurance company can't pay for it, you don't get it. >> not in that sense. the question is when you put the government in charge of limiting spending what you immediately have is a significant system

where you end up with a bureaucrat between you and your doctor and a government bureaucrat deciding which drugs will be developed and which won't. >> what those who say we have a insurance bureaucrat between me and my doctor now. >> can you change the doctor if you don't like it. >> that's not true. i can't change my health insurance company if i don't like it. that's why we're having this conversation. >> well, actually, no. we're having this conversation because there are 47 million people in this country who don't have insurance who we want to figure out how to get insurance. that 47 million is not a homogeneous group and 27 million of those people are more than 75,000 and between the ages of 25 and 45 and simply opt not to insure themselves and if they fall off their motorcycle and get seriously injured or have an unfortunate disease situation, then the rest of us pick up their costs. what we are trying to do is figure out a way to spread the burden of insuring those folks without dramatically increasing the cost of health care for

everyone else and -- >> i understand. we also spend 17% of our gdp which is more than anybody else spends, and have -- listen, it goes on and on. let's talk about the bill. you are cosponsoring this bill and the republicans role in this conversation. first off, why did you decide to cosign wyden/bennett? what did you like about it relative to everything else that you saw? >> it uses the private sector to drive the policy that will basically move towards resolution and control costs and expand coverage. under the wyden bill, everybody gets a type of coverage, even people who can't afford it today will be able to obtain coverage through a subsidy. under the bill, basically, we say that we're going to control out your costs by basically increasing the incentive for people to be healthier and consumers of health care. focusing on diseases, which are driving health care. and basically creating an atmosphere where there is competition for people relative to their insurance and giving them different options.

you know, everybody doesn't need one size fits all insurance. >> last question. same one we asked senator grassley yesterday and you're even more interesting situation or that i guess both 6 you are in different ways. what can you do or willing to do if you see a health care plan come out of the senate that basically has the characteristics that you would want that gives you what you would aspire to but you do not have republican support for it, how do you bridge that gap? what can do you as a republican with someone like ron wyden who is a democrat to bring perhaps less flexible or more dogmatic members of your party into the conversation from the scare tactics and what not? >> i think the real question is if there is a bipartisan bill that comes out of the senate and there may be because the baucus grassley group working hard and the wyden bennett bill which you mentioned. how do you preserve the bipartisan elements of that bill when you have speaker pelosi who

is committed to having the government take over the system? and that, i think, is the big hurdle here. in other words, why would people sign on to a bill in the senate if they know that the speaker of the house and the president's people are going to torpedo that bill and move toward the government plan when it gets in the conference? and so unless the president comes out and says he is for the bipartisan bill as it leaves the senate and he is going to stand by that bill as it goes to conference, i don't think you're going to get a bill here. >> anything that you think you or other republicans, senator grassley, others that are in the conversation, either in the room with max baucus or in the room in the conversation that you are having with other republicans on a bipartisan level to elevate this to a more constructive place? >> well, i think we have. basically i signed on to a bipartisan bill which is a comprehensive bill. i have my own bill and a couple of other proposals i could support. the coburn bill i could support.

i'm perfectly happy and open to a variety of approaches here and not approach any of the dogmatic attitude. the problem is the house of the leaders and pelosi is and the people speaking for the president now are being open, but there is other folks down there who are basically saying, no, we want a single-payer system under any scenario. >> thank you for taking the time to talk to us. >> thank you. we're following breaking news out of arizona where two young children who were kidnapped early this morning have been found in phoenix. you're looking at pictures here from kpnx where where you can see the officer with an 11-month-old girl and 2-year-old boy that were apparently dropped off at a house a couple of miles away from the home where they were kidnapped. police still looking for four men. the suspects, they believe, this may have been part of an armed robbery. they had barged into the house in the wee hours of the morning and toot kids and all-out search was on for these children.

again, found a couple of miles away so we're waiting to hear about how the reunion goes with the mom. breaking news out of the afghanistan this morning. taliban claiming responsibility for a deadly suicide bombing targeting nato forces. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the details. what are you learning about this preelection violence? >> we spoke to a taliban spokesman. he, obviously, claimed responsibility for this attack and said there would be more leading up to thursday's election and said the priority now is to target nato and u.s. forces in that order. the taliban believe the targeting nato forces is more effective because they generally don't return as much fire. they softer targets, and that afterwards, a second priority would be to target the u.s. military. they are trying to avoid afghan civilian casualties because they want to show that the taliban is trying to disrupt the foreign occupation of this country to try and disrupt the foreign imposed election, but not kill

afghan civilians. >> richard, aren't there also questions about the legitimacy now of the election ballots that have been sent out multiple times to people and payment for ballots? >> there are many questions about the legitimacy of these election. you have to understand how remote and isolated many parts of afghanistan are. we were out yesterday with some people distributing ballots on the backs of donkeys that are going to some of the most remote villages and there have been repeated reports you could go to market and buy ballots for $10 to $30 and buy registration forms. it is not a country that is particularly well secured or particularly well organized for elections. there will be several thousand international monitors on the ground but most of them will be centered in kabul and in large areas. there are concerns in some of the remote places or in taliban-controlled areas that there could be widespread fraud.

>> richard, thank you very much. dylan, we're looking at a lot of people looking at this election with great interests to see how things turn out and whether it can be accomplished in a straightforward, honest way. >> for good reason. thank you. still ahead, the obama administration pay czar looking to take back bonuses already paid to executives of bailed-out banks. imagine i sold you a bridge for a few million dollars and then the bridge turned out not to be mine. should i be allowed to keep the money for selling you that bridge? should the government be allowed to claw back bank ceo bonuses? that conversation after this. having the right tools is crucial to being able to manage your diabetes properly. it's very important for me to uh check my blood sugar before i go on stage.

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good day. i'm contessa brewer. the so-called pay czar says he has broad and binding authority when it comes to executive pay at companies received billions of bucks in taxpayer bailouts and threatening to use a claw-back to get the money back. here he is what he said. he is reviewing executive pay of seven companies that have yet to return a quarter of a billion dollars in pay-out money. andrew hall's contract intiltss him to as much as $100 million this year. citi says it needs to pay competitive salaries to retain top talent. i guess for a hundred million dollars, that ought to do it, dylan. >> i got it.

thank you very much. chief executive and chief -- author of bailout nation, our panel remained lynn sweet and jonathan capehart. very quickly, who should be subjected to claw-back? what is it and why is it okay for some possess-to-make a lot of money and not others? >> claw-backs are where governments or whatever entity goes back and takes bonuses and excess compensation from the executives who help drive these companies into bankruptcy. >> like taking a house from somebody who bought a house they couldn't afford. >> foreclosure. >> or buying a car and you couldn't afford the car payment? >> think of it as bonus -- >> jonathan capehart, why am i impatient on this bonus foreclosure where clearly the bonuses were paid on the belief there was one thing we all found out what we thought existed, didn't exist. it was a pile of garbage, but the bonuses were retained. why have we not seen more action on this and are we about to? >> go ahead, lynn.

and i'll follow you. >> i'm sorry, jonathan. okay. quickly, i think there is a lot of other stuff in the news now with health care and did you see public outrage over those aig bonuses. i think claw-back is a terrible word to use because people don't understand it. it's meaning you need to refund some of the money or never give it out in the first place. even that word alone makes it hard to understand. therefore, i think it dampens down some public interest in this thing. these stories need to be told simply to have more of an impact. >> right. >> you get something you don't deserve or even was a mistake and that is part of this, even if there was a mistake made and somebody was agreed to for something they shouldn't have gotten under these government sponsored bailouts, then, you know, the system should be allowed to make up for that. >> hey, dylan. i think another reason why, you know, there hasn't been much action on this, ken feinberg is going about this very carefully.

personally, i think this idea of clawing back and taking bonus money away from people as a corny as it might be these folks are earning a hundred million dollars in bonuses and men in bonuses that most of the nation wouldn't ever make in salaries in their lifetime, i think it sets a really awful precedent when you have the government -- >> hang on, hang on! >> contract is not -- that your contract shouldn't be honored. >> let's be clear then, jonathan. to follow that logic, you would say it's -- if i buy a house, i buy a$10 million house opinion i cannot make the payment. they foreclose the house on me. how is that different i sell aig and i sell insurance on all of the loans in america, i cannot pay for any of the defaults but i keep a few hundred million dollars or billion dollars in bonuses and then when the hurricane of credit defaults comes, i stick the losses with the government. to me, it's a direct parallel to

a housing foreclosure and to say it's a bad precedent to take an asset that was stolen back, it's like saying it's a bad precedent to take a piece of candy that a kid stole out of a candy store -- >> i got that, dylan. my concern is the government coming in and saying that a legally binding contract is no longer valid. >> we did that with -- these are bankrupt companies! when you bankrupt an enterprise -- >> jonathan! >> jonathan! >> valid. that's what bankruptcy does. >> wait a minute! >> these things are renegotiated all the time in business. >> exactly. >> and these things are not -- this is not like the 11th commandment that your employment contract with knever be renegotiated. >> particularly if we find out you're stealing. if we find our your contract is legalized stealing. >> that's inflammatory, dylan. let's try not and do that because the people who signed these contracts thought they were negotiating a good deal. >> i'm talking about the ceo of the bank, lynn. i'm talking about the ceo of the

banks who directly decided to elevate the risk levels in order to elevate compensation, knowing that they did not have the collateral to incur the liability at the time. i take issue with your suggestion my statement is inflammato inflammatory. i think it's inflammatory to pretend did didn't happen. >> ten ceos of the biggest financial institutions the past couple of years their bonuses alone for the top ten were over $2 billion. >> just the ceos of the banks? >> just the ceos their talking about. >> the people making decisions -- >> for the privilege of destroying these companies. if this is supposed to be incentive pay, performance pay, gee, imagine if they did well and bankrupting these companies and that is really the problem here is these banks should have been put into a normal insolvency process and everything should have wiped off the table and started from scratch. the way we did with -- treating the banks differently than everybody else aleaves the stress that the fed and the

treasury department feels, but in the long run, it just makes things much worse. >> understood. lynn, last word here? >> quickly, i think the salaries went up, assuming went too high. the expectations of people in this line of business needed to be changed sooner and that is where agree with you, dylan, the jobs weren't worth the millions they were paid -- >> money is supposed to represent the creation of value not your ability to steal money which, again, selling insurance for something you can't pay the claims on is stealing but it's better because they send you the money up front ahead of time. >> there are actually ceos that are worth the money. look at steve jobs and look at jim simons of renaissance. >> sure. >> look at -- >> a difference between creating a billion dollars for society, richard branson, whomever, and manipulating the system to steal a billion dollars as if you were a kid robbing a candy store and expecting it because you've got a contract that can you keep your billion dollars. crazy. >> you have to treat those two groups differently.

>> exactly. ahead, jenny sanford speaking her mind about the affair that pushed her out of the south carolina governor's mansion and ruining her husband's career for that matter. we're plugging into politics once again here on msnbc here after this. pollen. when i really liked to be outside, i did not like suffering from nasal allergy symptoms like congestion. but nasonex relief may i say... bee-utiful! prescription nasonex is proven to help relieve indoor and outdoor nasal allergy symptoms like congestion, runny and itchy nose and sneezing. (announcer) side effects were generally mild and included headache. viral infection, sore throat, nosebleeds and coughing. ask your doctor about symptom relief with nasonex. and save up to $15 off your refills. go to nasonex.com for details, terms and conditions. we're shopping for car insurance, and our friends said we should start here. good friends -- we compare our progressive direct rates, apples to apples, against other top companies, to help you get the best price. how do you do that? with a touch of this button.

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welcome back. plugging into politics. here we go. contessa brewer, what do you got? >> governor sanford, jen wife, is profiled in this issue of "vogue." she can understand what her husband is going through, because, damn, she would like to have somebody 5,000 away to e-mail. wouldn't -- you know, never like to have an e-mail pen pal. anyway, what she says is her own desire to escape, she can understand this. she says on the husband's affair through counseling she went into all of this therapy, she found out that his affair is much like an addiction to alcohol that they simply cannot break off the

affair and she says she feels sorry for her husband and his mistress. wow. mike huckabee, the former governor of arkansas is in israel and the atlantic has a report about the fact he blasted president obama and said obama should not be telling israelis where they can live or where they should not live. critics are saying this is a bit of a double standard because, you know, the gop blasted al gore for going away and criticizing president bush when he was in saudi arabia when al gore was. they say it's a double standard. why is it okay for a liberal or a conservative to go to israel and blast the president and it's not okay for vice versa. >> like the guns. >> honestly it doesn't look like it's blown up that much on the blogs. it's mike huckabee. he wasn't the vice president. >> he's just having fun over there talking and fun for us to talk about it a second and then we move on. >> moving on. up next, this one perhaps

more consequencial. six senators in charge of the senate health care bill, if there is going to be one, represent less than 3% of the u.s. population all in. they control the debate over health care reform. is that the way washington should work? small states, big players here after this. achoo! (announcer) what are you going to miss when you have an allergy attack? achoo! (announcer) benadryl is more effective than claritin at relieving your worst mptoms. and works when you need it most. benadryl. you can't pause life.

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welcome back. some of the biggest players in the health care reform conversation, in fact, come from the smallest states, lease populated, in fact, in our country. contessa is here with more and how that plays into this particular debate. >> here is what iowa senator chuck grassley brought to the meeting on monday. he says medicare is proof enough public option won't work everywhere. >> a government-run plan that dr. dean wants is not the more than extension of medicare and in rural america, we know what is wrong with medicare. they don't pay enough and so you don't get doctors and other health practitioners to come to rural areas. >> he is one of the gang of six senators working on bipartisan reform. these lawmakers represent some of the smallest states in the union. in fact, all six combined only represent 3% of the american population. >> got it. let's look at that again. here is your gang of six. senator bingeham.

you will say all of these states have relatively low population. senator conrad, north dakota and senator in wyoming and senator snow, maine, grassley, iowa and senator baucus out of montana coming into this conversation. from washington, d.c., charlie book and msnbc political analyst. lynn sweet is also here. lynn, is this too -- are we reading too much into who these people are in the states that they represent? or is it an appropriate anxiety that this much power resides in this particular context? >> may i refer to the federalist papers for the answer here, dylan? >> please do, please do. yes, please. >> they talked about something called the tyranny of the majority. one of the reasons we have senators, two from each state, which was a debate of the founding of our nation whether big states should have more representation, i think is for situations like this. there are so many checks and

balances. there are so many ways to go. you used the word conference this morning which most people don't know but in the end both chambers have to agree. for the moment at this shot in time these people have a lot of power and soon lose it once these measures advance. right now, yes, they have inordinate amount of power but, no, they won't have in the whole process. >> but do they get to set the terms of the conversation in the beginning? how big is their influence over what happens from here? >> they have a big megaphone. but this isn't going to last. any one senator under the system can put a hold on legislation. they do this all the time for appointments and things like that. maybe not anything of this magnitude. the senate exists sometimes to be the deliberative body and that is what it will be. no matter what this thing is a success, but they're telling you -- the senate people who run the senate that, right now, they don't want to give the democrats the edge. just think.

it's 3-3. that is magnanimous of the democratic leaders and some saying why not make it 4-3 to make it move along faster. >> charlie, what is your perspective? >> one of the things i learned when i first came to the hill as a college student intern in 1973 is that on capitol hill, size doesn't matter. you know, every house member represents, you know, roughly the same size population. on the senate side, you know, it doesn't matter. california, utah. in those days, the majority of the leader was mike mansfield from montana and his number two was robert byrd from west virginia. the number one in the senate now is harry reid from nevada and number one on the republican side is mitchell mcdonnell and his number two is robert bennett from utah. dick durbin from lynn's home state from illinois, it's actually unusual for a big state senator to actually have like a huge impact player in the senate

because usually it's smaller and moderate size to get the power. >> sure. but does that variable play into a conversation about health care reform which is a 305 million person problem ultimately, particularly for both health care and the economics of providing that health care, does a model like this, is a model like this ill-suited to deal with a problem like health care, i guess? >> yes, this is when -- >> lynn, go ahead, first. >> when you have an each panel, it's hard to make a decision to get something done. i think it's asking for consensus troo early in the process by the small number of people when you have all of these issues swirling around you. that's -- you know, this is the issue management problem for the obama white house right now. on the other hand, it sounds very reasonable, doesn't it, to have 3-3 evenly balanced to consider this. but as a practical matter -- you know, every committee in the senate has more democrats than republicans because they recognize it's a democratic-run

chamber. this case is an exception to how other committees are made. that's another reason why you have this process seemingly at a standoff over some of these issues and -- >> the other variable, charlie, is, again, if you're a small state senator, there's at least the conspiracy theory and data to back it up, more vulnerable to being supported by political action committees and special interests. there are less people to raise money from and that are you easier to influence. top five senators for campaign contributions and among that gang of six, wyoming. senator crapo out of idaho and new hampshire, senator gregg, we just spoke with and bennett and cochran are the biggest recipients of money as a percentage, right, from political action committee. the other question, charlie, if you're a small state politician, are they more vulnerable to the influence of special interests?

>> i don't think that's really -- i mean, the thing is it's a percentage of what they are overall getting and not that much. the thing is i think you need to get past the small state thing. these six members were not picked at random. they were picked because they were people who were seen as not rigid ideologs and could work together quietly in a small group and not kill each other and come up with a reasonable proposal. there are specific members not in this group because of who they are and because of their temperament and because they are inflexible ideologues. >> a good point. i think most americans probably wouldn't have known much about the six names you have there. everyone knows kennedy senate senate and everyone knows john mccain and i think a reason some of the more fire brands aren't on the panel. very good point, charlie. >> lynn, thank you so much. charlie, thank you for joining us. we will get reaction from the

white house today to all of the latest developments in the health care reform fight at noon today. linda douglas, the communications director for the white house, joined us a couple of days and joined dr. nancy today. really the first response, if you will, direct from the white house to all of the co-op conversation and, of course, the gang of six. that is today at noon only and exclusively on msnbc. contessa has the balance of the day's noon. >> president obama will meet with e gipp shaun president at the white house. they are to discuss the stalled middle east peace talks. after a serious falling out over bush administration pressure on human rights and democracy in egypt, his first visit to the united states. a shot out of arizona where police found two kidnapped children. a awe-month-old and 2-year-old. with me on the phone is sergeant andy hill, the public information officer with the

police department there in phoenix. can you set the scene for me? how did you find these kids? >> it started about 1:30 this morning. we put out a bullet. amber alert was being prepared. 6:00 this morning we got a call from a couple that live in a residence unrelated to any of this. they heard some noise outside and walked out front and the suspects are dropped the kids off in the front yard. they are okay and in good hands. >> the two little kids in the front yard by themselves froed dropped off there? >> that's right. i'm imagining the suspects saw the media coverage. we told them we wanted the kids to get to safety and fortunately they got to that part of it and now we have to try to identify the suspects and find them. >> the hunt is on for four men. do you have a description of the vehicle and any motive for them taking these kids? >> this is a home invasion kidnapping and it's under investigation now.

i'm sure we will have a motive. what they did probably come in and forced their way into the home. the mother with the two kids and tried to hide from them. they looked for money and looking for something in the home and didn't get it but they did take the children. described as back males, all four of them and one wearing a ballistic vest and a situation that happens all too observe here. we are fortunate in this situation the children are fine and safe. >> sergeant hill, thank you for the updates. more breaking news. out of miami beach, police searching for the parents of two toddler girls found roaming the streets in their pajamas early this morning. those children identified them ses as 3-year-old angelina and 1-year-old melanie. they say their parents are felix and sasha did you so far no one has reported these little girls missing. police are asking if you have information, contact the miami beach, florida, police. u.s. health officials say they only will have 45 million

doses of flu vaccine as opposed to 120 million they were expecting in october. about 20 million doses will be delivered each week thereafter. the department of health and human services blames delays in manufacturing and packaging of the vaccines there. >> thank you so much. still to come, protesters packing heat at town hall meetings and it continues to happen. is this freedom of speech? or an implied threat, even if it is legal? guns at town hall meetings. we are back after this. these days every penny counts with everything you buy.

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all right. guns at town hall rallies you're probably familiar and people continue to do it packing heat at these health care protests. what is going on? >> we are closely following town halls and other events around the country today to see who shows u.s. and what they bring with them.

more than 20 town halls scheduled from east-to-west, virginia to washington state. yesterday president obama addressed the veterans of foreign wars in phoenix. a man outside wore a semiautomatic assault rifle on his shoulder and a pistol on his hip. the associated press reports about a dozen people in all at that event were visible carrying forearms firearms. last week a guy stood outside obama's health care town hall with a gun strapped to his leg and police arrested a 62-year-old before that new hampshire event for carrying unlicensed loaded gun. the reason we're talking about this, a lot of talk here because people feel like, yes, there are second amendment rights for sure but also there are questions about whether this has a racial overtones. here you have a man of color in the presidency and white people showing up with guns strapped to their waist or their leg. >> it is real that there is tremendous anger in this country

about government, the way government seems to be taking over the country, anger about a black person being president. just several upheavals in the country the last ten years from 9/11 to the economic tsunami to the black man becoming president and, you know, we see these hate groups rising up and this is is definitely part of that. >> doubt if barack obama were white you -- say if it were bill clinton you would not see people showing up with weapons strapped to their legs? >> you know, i don't know. i don't know. i mean, that's hard to say. but you do see a rise in hate group activity throughout the country. >> i think that the combination of the bank bailout coming through and the conversation where people know that they were stolen from in that. they may not know how but they know that 14 trillion dollars of american taxpayer money was used and a bunch of people kept the money and know the health insurance thing and get the variable of a black president on top of all of these other things

and that's the move they cherry on top, if you will, to the accumulated frustration for folks. >> i'm not going to be surprised if we see somebody get a chance and take a chance and really try to hurt him or really -- >> of course. >> it's up to the secret service to make sure it doesn't actually become history, but, you know, i think we're going to see somebody, some sort of squeaky from, some sort of mark hinckley figure because so much anger about him in the country about government. >> and racism when you put those two together. >> but also because when democratic presidents take over, during the clinton administration, we did see weapons ban on the semiautomatic assault weapons and did you see people showing up with guns to prove a point? >> no, but the economy was good then and at that point, passing a law that allowed the largest financial ponzi scheme ever in '99. times were good, right? in other words, when people have jobs and feel like they can get rich and the credit is flowing and you've got a more

comfortable white president, socially -- the temperature is lower. >> when you show up -- >> of course. >> a lost people aren't exposed to reps weapons. >> we can't separate the mood of the country which is uncertain and a lot of tumult going on from being a black president. the two fit and feed each other and so many people are happy about it and feel it's a new post-racial america and so many people are mad about a black person reaching that level. >> combine that with the reality of unemployment and health care and all of these real things that are frustrating the people feel the government not delivering to them what they feel it should. >> you can't separate the health care debay bait at anger at government in general. we've seen the major government moves with the bank bailout and with what happened in detroit and now here comes a third one so people when they talk about socials and that is the real emotion of government taking over! >> and government taking over at the same time they are allowing the so-called fat cats in the banks, everybody is -- the

status quo is getting away with it and that makes people frustrated, too, and they are. >> just to put a finer point on this because people are worried about the government getting too big and taking power where it should not does not necessarily correlate to people being racist. it's not necessarily because of -- >> that's true but i would say people frustrated with the government raises the overall temperature. >> right. >> totally unrelated you would install a black president and a time when the temperature is higher and you just have a more volatile combination, where people have to behave in a more conscious manner. >> you just know that there is a significant swath of the country that is still angry about there being a black person as president and will do whatever they have to do to show their anger. >> i do. >> but, again, there are different items that come together that can be a bad combination. the take-away here, we had a fairly productive meeting. judd gregg, a nice conversation, to say the least. lynn sweet and mr. capehart were

good and toure is always entertaining. contessa. >> not so much. >> keeping us up-to-speed. we come to you, we got a kidnapping. >> can we break some news? contessa really wants to be on "dancing with the stars." >> no. >> if anybody from that show is watching, if anybody from that show is watching, contessa wants to get down! she wants to dance! >> i want to get paid for it! >> we will ring abc. >> you want the 200 k is what you really want! people have discovered how easy it is to use legalzoom for important legal documents. at legalzoom, we'll help you incorporate your business, file a patent, make a will and more. you can complete our online questions in minutes. then we'll prepare your legal documents and deliver them directly to you. so start your business, protect your family, launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side.

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♪ >> all right. welcome back. we wrap up the "morning meeting" with our take-away. what else is there to say? but dancing with delay, the hammer, the former house majority leader will shake his dance groove thing on "dancing with the stars." were on own contessa brewer showing off her dancing stuff.

>> hold on! >> they are so excited to dance. look at contessa earlier efforts and then, please! >> okay. now this doesn't count because that was dancing matt and he is doing a jig and i was just trying to do that! that's not a good example of what i can really strut out. >> how would not they not want put that on network television? >> people, that is not my potential for dancing skills! >> that is courtesy of our producer on the show, brett osmond. >> let it go. there you go! good stuff. >> i took a class ballroom dancing in college and should come up with something better than that. >> that is what we're working on. >> i bet you're on that show next season. who could they get who would be -- >> no one! no one! >> more grabbing than you? >> that will do it. carlos watson picks up here. i'm dylan.

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good morning everyone. welcome to msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. the white house feeling the sting of liberal back slash after a inc. single government run public option may not be a central issue to reform. the white house says nothing has changed and today senate democrats are sounding off. taliban steps up attacks in afghanistan ahead of this creak's critical election. it's called the largest case yet of credit card and debit card threat. is your credit safe? the markets are trying to climb back from monday's plunge to a six-week low.

what is behind the new crisis of confidence? from the house floor to the dance floor! that's right! jaws are dropping from coast-to-coast as former republican majority leader tem de lee tom delay is lacing up his dancing shoes. congresswoman allison schwartz joins us and robert rice stops by and general mcaffrey will join us and kimberly martin and savannah guthrie live at the white house and richard engel in afghanistan and emily miller, tom delay's former communications directors gives us the inside scoop on him. the top headlines. more violence in afghanistan two days before the presidential election there. unfortunately seven people killed when a taliban suicide bomber attacked a nato conqoi voueds outside of kabul. three other people including two u.s. soldiers killed in a separate blast.

federal prosecutors say a miami man stole more than 130 million credit and debit card accounts. albert gonzalez is a onetime government informance who had previously stolen more than 40 million accounts by hacking the retail network. you see his pickets there. the fbi will investigate the beating of a man by minneapolis police officers. in fact, jenkins was pulled over for speeding in february. you see video at one point the video shows him being kicked and punched by several officers who claim he was uncooperative. >> all i remember was getting out of the car, getting thrown down, and feeling the punches. and those last words were i can't bring you. >> he suffered severe cuts and bruises to his face, as well as permanent damage to his thumb. tough story there. i want to introduce my guest co-host. i'm pleased to welcome and