constitutional right to bear arms, but why are they doing it at presidential events? this country has a bad history of guns and presidential events starting in 1865 and running through garfield, mckinley, teddy roosevelt, who was shot at, fdr who was shot at. harry truman who was shot at. jfk. garlt ford who was shot at twice and ronald reg whon was shot. let's get at it tonight. why are people bringing guns to presidential events? and lats have a discussion about robert novak, the conservative tiff columnist and provocateur. he knew how to shake things up. he died today. let's touk to pat buchanan and eleanor cliff about him. they were two people who were with him when he hit television. we begin with that new nbc poll that explains the heat over health care. it really does. nbc news chuck todd is our political director, of course, at nbc news, and also the chief white house correspondent for nbc news. by the way, twinkle toes couldn't make it tonight. tom delay is working hard to get

ready for dancing with the stars. he took time out to begin his rehearsal. he'll be on tomorrow night. twinkle toes is his name. it's no longer the hammer. sorry, that's your job description. president obama job approval -- thank you, chuck. we got a chuckle. health care, 41%, the same as it was a month ago, 41% for it. 47% against it. no change there. also look at this. if you think the republicans are gaining in this mishmash, look again. 62% don't like what the republicans are doing on health care, 21% do. 3 to 1 they don't like what the republicans are talk about. this is interesting, chuck. chuckaroo, how can it be people are so mad about health care, and yet at the same time they're not giving the republicans anything. >> this is our third straight poll where we have seen erosion in president obama's numbers in some form or another, whether overall job rating in this, in health care, the various thing we saw -- >> who do they trust now? >> that's the thing.

we have not ever yet seen a bounce up for the republicans. it is still -- look, we always say the country has add and doesn't seem to remember what happened just five minutes ago. they still remember that they fired the republicans for the last two elections, and so -- >> they're invested in that retirement. >> they haven't yet -- there's nothing to believe there. there is room here. if obama fails, if obama and the democrats fail, you know, the big warning to both political parties is if there's a short-term -- if it happens soon, there's going -- something is going to pop up somewhere else because they're not going to bounce for the republicans. they'll either not show up to the next election -- the angry voter will either not show up or some other third entity is going to tap into something. >> really? >> that is what you see. if it is seen as gridlock failure here with the democrats, the republicans haven't built up that trust. there will be -- >> gun toting right wing movement people out there who are far beyond either political party -- >> the republicans would say this.

they would argue we haven't had to do anything to be for anything yet. we're sitting here only running against something. >> let's take a look at this number too, another set of numbers in the new nbc poll a majority of the country is concerned health care reform will go too far instead of not going enough. now you see the growing concern, do no harm, going too far 54%. only 41% say it's not doing enough. >> two most important groups i would argue are seniors who, by the way, the lowest demographic group of approving of president obama's performance. all the age groups narrowly approve the president, seniors it's the lowest number. that's not good for any democratic president. but -- >> but they already have health care. >> well -- >> isn't that why they don't want any change? >> they're fearful of the change. >> but they have it now. >> correct. >> they have government-run health care called medicare. >> that's right. but i'm saying they have lost the message with seniors. the second group that's important in that number we just showed is people with private insurance. and that's 60% of the country has private insurance.

and they are very concerned about seeing change because right now at the end of the day they still -- >> getting to your point here, a majority of the country opposes the idea of public health care, what's called public ouchingpti. it's very narrow. >> interesting thing because there are some groups trying to criticize us because of the way we're wording questions. if you add the word choice it can buy us a poll question. we took out the word choice and said competitor, that public -- the government option would compete against private insurance companies, and that's where you get a more narrow -- >> but guess what? the liberals are not mad at us -- >> they want the word choice. everybody will be angry about something. most important number in that demographic, we have a blue dog demographic subsample here which are white democrats who do not -- call themselves liberal, call themselves mod rad or even

conservative. >> they approve in much lower numbers. it's no wonder the president is putting that on the negotiating block. >> let's take a look at this story that is are making people angry. right now the country say 43% town halls do harm. 42% say the opposite. >> by the way, this is total polarization. 64% of democrats -- >> this is what i really want to get to. this is the reason why people are carrying guns, why they're getting so heated. these are the reasons i think. let's take a look at what the country thinks of the criticisms voiced at town hall meetings about health care reform. 55% think it's more likely that the illegals will get health insurance. i have been checking around the hill. people say this bill that comes out of the congress will not pay for health insurance for illegal immigrants. >> 55%. >> so they're wrong. >> they're wrong, but this is what they're hearing and this is what -- >> it's a scare term and it's not right. second one, let's -- the government takeover. it will lead to a government

takeover. well, now, without even a public option being probable, the odds of this turning into a government takeover are almost zero. >> one could argue thz a dee baitable point. there are kfeconservatives that will say medicare is already the start of eventual takeover. this is a debatable ideological view -- >> that's just a general trend towards more government involvement in our social issues. >> correct. >> let's look at this one. pay for abortions. half the country say it's likely the taxpayer -- checking on the hill, they say the hyde amendment is still in effect. no federal dollars for abortion. >> what some conservative groups argue is that because you will -- because the federal government will subsidize lower income folks to buy private insurance, that will cover abortion, that you go from "a" to "b" to "c" to "d" and eventually that's proof that taxpayer money eventually will pay for abortion. it depends on your point of view if you take that entire "a" to

"b" to "c" to "d" route -- >> that's a fair leap. >> so tom people that's a fair leap. >> if you subsidize insurance and the insurance covers abortion, you're saying these plans will do that -- >> no, i'm saying -- >> will these plans cover aborti abortion? >> not a single fact checker has been able to prove that. >> how about death panels? 45% says -- we did n >> we did not use the term death panel. the way we worded it, the government would make the ultimate decision of when to stop giving medical care to the elderly. so we did not use a charged political term. 45% believe this. and for what it's worth, seniors actually believed it less than the overall public. there has been this idea that somehow this is a scare tactic with seniors. >> they believe government will pull the plug. >> no, they don't. >> 45% do. >> 45%. >> that's a lot.

>> it is a lot. >> you figure they're not going to be for it. >> it's a lot of people. you could argue -- we have one other question in here. you make all these points on the myths and you have 50% on three of the four. 45%, a near majority on the fourth. when you actually give them the president's plan, a majority approve of it. when you lay it out. >> 53%, 43%. >> what does that tell you? it means he's not getting his message across. >> let me ask you -- let's get off the public opinion to politics. you're very good at it. >> yes, sir. >> i am sort of a political moderate meaning i'd like to see progress made in this country but i want to see our society hold together. that's what kind of a person i am. i want this society to stick together. i want america to work, all right. that's my basic notion. if you don't get 60 votes in the senate and you don't get 218 votes in the house, all this is blather. >> right. >> so why do people hold the positions that won't get 60 in the senate and won't get 218 in the house? >> i'll tell you this -- >> why would -- and still say -- >> the public option.

they will fight over -- >> and still say it's health care reform. >> i'll tell you where the white house's head is. they're frustrated because they believe actually the left -- the people most up in arms on the public option don't understand what they're even for when it comes to -- when you ask some groups on the left what's the public option, they each give you a different definition. so the white house is trying to preach patience and saying, hey, hold on a minute. maybe the co-ops is going to be able to do what will you want it to do on the public option. but you need to be patient here. you need to understand that this stuff isn't politically popular, and in fact it's not even politically popular with some democrats. as i pointed out. the blue dog democrats -- >> we have anthony wiener coming here. >> anthony wiener's constituents, i can tell you, we can look -- anthony wiener's constituents want what anthony wiener wants, single payer health care. >> right. >> and that's the political fact of life. >> yes.

i agree. thank you very much, chuck todd. thank you, sir. >> coming up, backlash from the liberal side of things. indication that the president may be backing away from the public option and liberals don't like t let's see what's workable here. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. i'm okay with cutting back a little, but i still want to put my best face forward. with crest whitestrips advanced seal, i get whiter teeth that lasts for 12 months. all from one little box, i say that's a pretty good deal. crest whitestrips advanced seal. the no slip white strips.

so why are protesters bringing guns to presidential town meetings? what's the message here? whaen "hardball" returns. i'm racing cross country in this small sidecar, but i've still got room for the internet. with my new netbook from at&t.

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the public option, whether we have it or we don't have it, is not the entirety of health care reform. this is just one sliver of it, one aspect of it. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president obama on saturday just a few days ago talking about the public option. well, is it dead? meaning will there be a government option, a government alternative to private insurance for some people in this country? democratic congressman anthony wiener is from new york. he's been around for a while, and he's a powerful member of the house powerful energy and

commerce committee. sir, i watched you on the "today" show -- no i think it was "morning joe" this morning. you were good. >> thank you. >> let me ask you this question. you are for single payer. >> i am. >>. you believe the government should run medicare for everybody. >> ho not run with you we should pay for it. >> but the government -- >> but she shouldn't give money to insurance companies to pay for it. we should let a program like medicare prei am bourse doctors and hospitals. >> you were tough with joe scarborough saying what do insurance companies actually do? was that a rhetorical device or do you wonder what they do? >> what the value added that they bring. what it is they're adding -- >> steven spielberg makes movies. what do insurance companies make? >> in a commodity sense of the word like automobiles, for example, you can choose what car you drive, where you drive it. >> right. >> they apportion risk. that's not happening in the insurance industry in the health insurance. you're not shopping around when

you need an operation. it's not a commodity. so the insurance model doesn't work in the traditional sense like a car or house. >> why do you -- you know this country all across the country even though you're from the east coast. i'm from the east coast y do you think the people in the heartland are suspicious of a government-run health care financing plan rather than something that has brand name on it? they seem more comfortable with a corporate brand name. >> because they have been successfully -- people have confused the notion of liking your doctor or hospital and liking your insurance company. i don't think people despite what the president says actually likes their insurance company. they like their doctor and are concerned that relationship is going to get broken. if you sit in a town hall meeting as i have, i did a brunch of them, you have senior citizens nodding in agreement when you say medicare works. >> it's a great deal. >> you have younger people saying they don't get it. try this test out. take someone who is 50 years old or 55 and say you're going to get medicare next year. they're going to be very happy. people who understand medicare are not as suspicious and that's

40% of the american people. >> you're a politician. you deal with constituents all the time. i remember working on the hill you get a lot of case work you have to deal with, people with particular problems with the government. they don't get a disability claim. why is it some people in the political middle are less fearful of some corporate person, middle level person, like in "sicko" the movie, saying no to you on a claim but they're more worried about a government official saying no. they can't get the transplant or them ri. >> it depends what lens of your experience your looking through. we deal with hundreds and hundreds of cases where we have people with problems with problems with their health insurance. very rarely do we have people with problems with medicare. people pay into their health insurance and they're concerned they're going to lose their coverage. that's an unfounded fear. people who know someone in their family who have medicare buy the wiener argument we should make this simpler and extend medicare to more and more people. >> if they can afford it. you admitted we have a financing

problem with medicare. >> 100%. >> how can we give the whole country medicare -- >> healed on a second. the financing problem with medicare is there's less growth in medicare spending than in the private insurance side. and fewer people are losing their insurance on medicare, meaning nobody. the taxpayer is getting hit anyway. this is the thing i think the president has done a bad job w the uninsured i care about them as a academic matter but i really care about them because my constituents are paying for their health care through hospital emergency rooms. if the president would get up and say you don't like paying that bill either, i don't want to either, we want to make sure -- >> i like that argument. we're paying for it anyway. a person has a right to go to an er and there's a requirement to take care of people that are coming in. if we're already paying for this health care, then why does it cost an extra $1 trillion to do it officially? >> it doesn't cost an extra trillion. >> that's the issue, the bug. >> people are looking at it all wrong. i pay $3 billion extra taxes in new york city because new york city residents are getting stuck

with this. let's do this smart and do it with the federal government or a co-op or do it with something else. we are the overall -- if the overcall cost doesn't go down, we fail. >> you think you're giving relief to the localities. >> we pay $2.5 trillion for health care. if we don't pay $2 trillion in five years from now, this whole process is a failure. >> it's a week before halloween. you have a vote on the floor, vote on a bill. it doesn't have the public option. will you vote for it? >> i don't know. probably not. because if it doesn't -- >> suppose your -- >> the math is meaningful to me. if, indeed, it turns out it doesn't save us any money, it keeps this cost going up and up, my citizens are not going to get any relief the answer is no it and i think frankly a co-op plan won't do it. >> suppose it has mandates, it has subsidies, encouragement to business to insure people and something to do with reform in terms of pre-existing conditions and portability, will you vote for -- >> and no cost containment could

the costs keep going up and it bankruptcies our government, i can't vote for that. >> is there any way to get a bill past the congress except with 60 votes in the senate and 218 in the vote? >> i think he can do it with 51 in the senate under reconciliation. >> but you would be willing to blow up the senate rules -- >> there's a reason there's a democratic house and a democrat senate, democratic presidency. that middle block of americans want us to get this done. >> what do you think the republican reaction would be if you ignored the rules and pushed through a bill -- >> honestly, waiting for republican senators to be pleased with the process is something i'm not prepared to wait for. >> the war begins -- we've been through god damn wars in this country. it's easy to start. tough to end them. how do you stop a war that starts in the united states senate because you jammed through -- >> what do you mean jam, started a war. what are you -- >> what are the republicans going to do? >> outside of this town the american people really don't care about -- >> will the government still function if you try to jam this through with 51 votes? >> i think it will.

>> you think the republicans will put up with it? >> i think people will be upset. if it works -- >> i know people aren't -- >> i'm saying structurally. >> so you basically believe the republicans will take it on the chin. >> there was a lot of hot language. look, whether or not -- you know, i understand the idea -- >> you're trying -- >> i do not buy -- i don't buy the idea that we have to build this reform on the foundation of enzi and grassley. that's not -- >> and snowe. >> and snowe. that is not getting us anywhere. the problem with what is going on at the white house right now is they're negotiating against themselves. >> so you basically disagree with the president, his strategy seems to be try to get some republican support. ted kennedy probably can't make the vote. you will need 60. that's their strategy. you don't like t. >> i don't believe it will be successful. i don't believe -- >> they won't get to 60. >> i don't believe they will get to 60 with anything worth all that much, and it's certainly not going to be what he's been going out and articulating we've

all been fighting for which is control cost -- >> have you talked to rahm emanuel about this? i think he disagrees with you. i think he believes something is better than nothing and you disagree with that. >> in the abstract i generally would go for something. cost containment is such an important part of it. we're bankrupting ourself. >> you believe public option is is the key to cost contain am. >> i think single payer is the way you do it. i don't think -- >> but it's essential. >> i don't believe that co-ops do it. >> you believe it's essential. >> i believe there's nothing else in the bill -- >> do you see an armageddon struggle over this in the fall? meaning the liberals will say no way. >> i think that the president realizes at some point here a switch goes off, and they say, you know what? why don't we push for what we actually think is going to be the best possible policy and try to sell it to the middle that elected us. >> let me ask you two liberal questions. should health care reform, the new bill, should it cover abortion? >> i believe --

>> should it cover abortion. >> i'm uncomfortable with the idea that someone who is less well to do should have less option on any -- >> this covers like four times -- >> this is a weird one. i heard your discussion with chuck. what goes on is kind of preserves the status quo which is weird which is the health plan can offer it if they want. we should not treat health care that someone who is well to do has more options than someone -- >> so you dond like the hyde amendment. >> i don't. >> should it cover illegal immigrants? >> no. >> should it? i mean under your goals -- >> under my goals they're getting paid for now. >> so you'd support covering them? >> i think the whole paradigm has to be we should cover people who are getting hospital care in emergency rooms in a more efficient way. i want to fix the immigration laws but none of the bills being contemplated are going to allow anyone to sign up. i ask you this question, someone who is undocumented walks into the kings highway hospital on kings highway, they're going to get care. we're going to wind up paying for it so we might think we are

doing something by saying don't cover them. >> you're an honest man and it's good to hear you. you're scaring the hell out of people on the right. we have to talk to everybody on had show. thank you for coming in during the recess. this is a working congressman and it's august. anthony wiener, thank you. you were great on joe this morning. up next, tickling your funny bone. health care is getting beat up on the late night comedy. wait until you see jon stewart. the power of satire. stewart is something. wait until you see it. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. new blackberry, huh ? yeah. me, too. how sick is the web browsing ? all the apps, gps, video... yeah... you didn't get your blackberry with the verizon network, did you ? no. sorry. so it doesn't work here, does it ? no, but... paperweight mode. all right. ( announcer ) blackberry runs better on america's largest 3g network.

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something very alfred hitchcock about that opening. time for the "sideshow." first up, here is a good look at where the president now stands on health care. i mean t it's done in satire but it has the whole story. the president said we need to

have a government-run health care plan to compete with the private insurance companies. that's what he said. now he says we don't. here is jon stewart last night sending up this disconnect and how it's hurting the president. >> wait a second. what did you just say? >> the public option, whether we have it or we don't have it. >> no public option? we still get to kill old people though, right? mr. president, i can't tell if you're a jedi ten steps ahead of everything or if this whole health care thing is kicking your ass just a little bit. why is this so hard? why can't you guys just stay on message? remember the bush team, a little discipline, a little repetition. they saw this as a war nobody wanted and nobody needed. >> the one choice we don't have is to do nothing. >> the one ongs we do not have to do nothing. >> doing nothing is no longer an option. >> must invade iraq. must invade iraq.

salesmanship! those guys could sell ice cubes to eskimos. the democrats, i don't even think could seles kimmos [ bleep ] they need. insulation. >> i don't want to be governed by people who are willing to say anything to get their way. next up, face time, different times. bill and hillary clinton both met with president obama this afternoon but not at the same hour. she, the secretary of state, had her meeting with the president at 1:30. he, the former president and hero of pyongyang, had his meeting with the president at 4:00 this afternoon. don't you wish you could listen in, a, when the two boys got together, and, b, when hill and bill compared notes over the phone afterwards? how was it for you, dear? time for tonight's "big number." the aarp has gone out on a bit of a limb by backing efforts for health care reform, so here is proof that no good deed goes unpunished. how many seniors have canceled their moub in aarp this summer

specifically citing aarp's push for some sort of health care overhaul. 60,000 seniors have walked out on aarp this summer over reform. tonight's big number. up next, why are protesters bringing loaded guns to rallies outside presidential events? they're bringing them to town meetings. there they are in the holsters. what's going to keep the guns holstered? that's my question. and this is "hardball" only on msnbc. bicycle, what are we waiting for? the flowers are blooming. the air is sweet. and zyrtec® starts... relieving my allergies... 2 hours faster than claritin®. my worst symptoms feel better, indoors and outdoors. with zyrtec®, the fastest... 24-hour allergy medicine, i promise not to wait as long to go for our ride. zyrtec® works fast, so i can love the air™.

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i'm julia boorstin with your cnbc market wrap. stocks rebounded today on some better than expected retail earnings and analyst upgrade for american express. the dow gained 82 points. the s&p 500 is up almost 10 points. and the nasdaq added 25 points. target shares finished more than 7% higher.

the discount retailer reported lower profits in the second quarter but still managed to beat expectations. home depot shares gained more than 3%. here again profits were lower but still not as low as predicted. hewlett-packard finished 2% higher on the day the hardwaremaker expected better than xted quarterly earnings. and american express saw its shares gain more than 4% after two investment firms raised its rating expecting it to outperform the market. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. w back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." when obama, president obama, gave his speech monday at a phoenix arena, about a dozen people carrying guns, including one man with a military-style semi-automatic rifle, were among the protesters outside. just last week when the

president spoke in portsmouth, new hampshire, a man outside the event had a gun strapped to his leg and in a separate incident in portsmouth, a man was ri a'sed for having a loaded unlicensed gun in his car near the school where obama, the president, held the health care forum. ronald reagan's hosted the ron reagan show and allen gotly founded the second amendment foundation. why would a person bring a gun to a president yool event. >> i think the only legitimate reason would be for self-defense, in which case it's better to carry it concealed rather than open carry. i think politically it's not an asuit decision to make. while it's maybe legal, i think it doesn't help the pro gun rights cause when you see people do that. >> what is their motivation? >> their motivation is they know president obama is anti-gun rights and they're raising an in your face kind of thing saying it's my right and i can do it. but it doesn't sell right and doesn't get much converts to our cause. >> you really believe that.

>> yeah. >> you're not just bs'ing me. you really believe this is gun rights and his position on gun rights even though we've had democratic presidents for years who take basically the same position he's taking on gun rights and nobody has shown up at events carrying guns ever. >> well, i don't think they've been quite -- there's no doubt obama's most anti-gun rights president we've had in the history of the united states based on his past performance, his actions, his voting record, and statements he's made. >> i don't agree with you, but you're right, i think there's a more deep seated reason here. i think it has to do with people's real ideologies involved here. ron, it seems to me the problem we've had with presidents is people who come to events with guns have used them. i'm going through a history here. your dad, of course, suffered from that. 1860, 1865 rather, lincoln. 1880 we elected garfield. he was killed. 1900, mckinley. teddy roosevelt was shot at. fdr was shot at. the mayor of chicago was killed

by that assassin attempt. harry troou man was attacked by prekian nationalists. a secret service agent was killed. gerald ford was shot at twice. jack kennedy was killed when he was shot. and your dad was almost killed. your thoughts on this subject. why do people bring guns to presidential events? >> i think it's a much bigger than than allen a suggesting. i don't think it's about second amend rights or health care. the future is coming, chris, and many people are scared of the future. this is one of those pivotal moments in our history when you can sense that something is happening, something is going to change, and many people get very frightened by that. some people can hire lobbyist to push back against that change. other people who don't have that capacity do things like carry guns around. allen is quite right, the only real reason to carry a loaded handgun or assault-style rifle anywhere, hunting, target practice, or you intend to kill someone in self-defense. now, they're not going hunting. they're not going for target practice. so who is it they think they

might have to kill. they're holding up signs talking about the tree of liberty needing to be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots. maybe that gives us a little hint there. >> what are the rules of engagement, mr. gottlieb, for the people who bring guns. under what circumstances would they use them? >> first of all. >> take a look at what's legal and not -- >> under what circumstances would they use the guns? in a public event like this with people crowding around a president, a school somewhere. under what circumstances at such an event, with i is where they're bringing the gun, would they use it. >> this is an outside rally area with people protesting on all sides of an issue. sometimes they get violent. for self protection you may want to protect yourself -- >> you really -- are you talking -- i wish i had you under sodium pentothal, sir. do you honestly believe that somebody brings these guns because they think somebody else in the crowd is going to kill them? >> chris, i'm saying that's the legitimate reason to do so. >> no, but is that the motive here? >> no, i don't think that was the motive here and i said that

up front. i think the people are making a political statement. i don't think it was the right place or time to do so. >> if they're making a political statement, the guns don't have to be loaded, alan. they can simply be empty on their back, but these are loaded handguns and assault-style rifles. there's no reason for that unless you're intending to use them. >> well, i can't say i disagree with you. i don't think it was an appropriate place to have those particular firearms. but let's be honest, all these people were there legally, lawfully. they did not threaten anybody. they were exercising a right that's legal in the state of arizona. >> you can have a legal right. that doesn't make it right. a legal right does not necessarily make it right. >> it may not make it smart, but it was definitely right. that's why the police officers did not arrest anybody. they were all legal, and everybody was very well-behaved. you might want to argue on the opposite side it could be a polite society. >> until the shooting starts. >> you abo but there was no shooting. >> think about the wisdom of strapping a loaded assault

weapon to your back in the midst of a crowd you can't control. somebody could grab that gun and do god knows what with it. it's foolishness. >> i might want to have my handgun concealed on my person and no one would know it's there. it would be for my self-protection but i wouldn't be flaunting it. it would be safer for me because the element of surprise would be on my surprise. >> if you were at the book depository in dallas in 1963 and you happened to walk through one of the book depository rooms upstairs and you saw a man with a rifle, what would you do? >> well, in that particular case you would have had my handgun with me and i don't think we'd have a dead president. >> how would you have known that that person intended to use that rifle against the president? >> i think it -- >> you say you have a right to carry these guns around -- >> if you see a guy pointing a rifle out -- >> i'm saying five seconds before the pointing. i'm saying just having the gun in proximity to a presidential event.

you have no problem with that? >> there was no reason for that person to have a gun in a book depository sitting by a window. it's obvious he was there for no good. that's why people with firearms can help protect presidents -- >> now you're really getting loony. if you're a secret service agent and you're watching a crowd and you're watching the people with guns that are loaded as ron points out, do you have to have a special agent in each case watching each guy with a gun because it seems like that person would require special attention. what do you think? >> well, chris, this person -- >> you were a kret service -- >> he wasn't near where the president was. my guess is there were no secret service people there. it was only local police doing crowd control because it was nowhere near where the president was. let's be honest about it. >> let me ask you about this. if you were a secret service agent and you saw someone on the perimeter of one of the presidential events, would you keep your eye on the guy with the gun? >> of course i would. i mean i'd be stupid not to. >> how many agents will we have

to have? for every guy carrying a gun we need an agent. >> no you don't. when you have it in public and everybody can see it, the odds are you aren't going to do anything. it's when you can't see it you have to worry. >> alan is speaking as somebody who has a little more experience than you do with the secret service. if you've got somebody with a loaded weapon at an event that the president is at or any other politician, you're going to have security personnel watching them. they're going to be watching them when they should be watching something else. >> wait, again you're right, but this wasn't an event where the president was at. he was not out on the street where the people were. >> let me tell you last week we have an event where now about a dozen people carrying guns showed up in phoenix with the president. a dozen people. that's a lot of people for secret service agents to keep an eye on. let's kill it right now. you say they brought the guns for display purposes only, right in they didn't really bring them for self-protection, brought them for display. >> that's what it looked like. >> okay. number two, but you see no reason otherwise for bringing them. you don't really believe them brought them for self-protection then? >> no, i think they were making a political statement.

i don't think it was the right venue to do it. >> thank you. >> political statement they don't have to be loaded. that's the bottom line there. this is about anger. this is about anger -- they were loaded. this is about anger and anger and guns do not mix and that's what we're seeing at these rallies. >> the fellow i had last week said you're stupid. he said he had a gun and it was loaded. he said never carry a gun unless it is loaded. he made fun of me for requesting the questions because he's a second amendment guy -- >> you're making an assumption they were all loaded for these people. you're making a statement we don't really have any facts to back up. >> well, if they weren't loaded, chris is right, there's no point in carrying it. then it's just a piece of metal that's worthless. >> then it's a political statement, isn't it? >> is it? is it a political statement or is it something else, alan? >> ron, you just said -- >> you know what -- >> that's true but they did have it loaded, didn't they? at least one did have a loaded. >> second amendment is clear,

gentlemen. the second amendment is interpreted by this supreme court is you have an individual right to bear arms. my question is this. you have a right to jump around on a pogo stick. you don't go to church on a pogo stick. there's a right place and a right time. we agree on that all three of us. >> thank you, ron and alan. up next remembering robert novak who died today at the age of 78. we'll have some people -- there's on old picture and an early picture of bob novak. we will have a couple people like pat buchanan and eleanor clift who knew this guy when he got started only on "hardball" on msnbc. just a good paying job. that's why i like this clean energy idea. now that works for our whole family. for the kids, a better environment. for my wife, who commutes, no more gettin' jerked around on gas prices... and for me, well, it wouldn't be so bad if this breadwinner brought home a little more bread. repower america. i hope our senators are listening.

coming up, columnist robert novak who was a central figure in the washington political life of this city has died. that's on "hardball" coming back right now. it's a... a fork? you're a wombat.

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welcome back to "hardball." journalist and conservative columnist robert novak died earlier today after a one-year fight with cancer. rob novak was a must-read columnist, that's the best you could say about anyone in in business. you want to read what they have to say and got to report. "the washington post" ran novak's column every day, even though he didn't exactly fit with that paper's high-toned sensibility. novak knew how to make trouble. he new the best fights were intermural. usually somebody min the republican mad at somebody else in the republican. he knew the gut element in journalism, the resentment toward what he called the beautiful people. who nixon called those liberal pinup boys. he knew that gut of resentment because he shared it. bob novak didn't follow fashion. he hated on his own terms and he defended people with the same

bite. i think he defended some people like dan quayle simple because the liberal elite were attacking dan quayle. all that made him irresistible. pat buchanan andtibble. pat buy can 9 abuchanan and eleanor clift knew him well. apparent will you you had a hand in bringing us bob. >> well, we shared offices on the same floor. 1750 pennsylvania avenue, a block from the white house. novak was instrumental in getting me on the mclaughlin group. we'd drive out there friday afternoon in his la baron convertible. he'd have a chicago cubs cap on. i thought he was my buddy. then you'd arrive at the studio, the red light would go on, he'd be lunging at me, wagging his finger in my face saying "eleanor clift and people of her ilk." i don't think i knew what ilk

meant the first time of times. he loved the battle. but he was a reporter, and as somebody who was a reporter, i really admired. he had sources everywhere. buried in every bureaucracy. and he married one of lyndon johnson's secretaries for goodness sakes. so he had sources on the democratic side as well as the republican side. >> pat, i don't think i missed a single episode of "mclaughlin group." you and those guys were in your prime, 30 years younger. you and bob and eleanor, whatever the latest nickname was. >> well-a-nor. >> there's the young, tough, irish -- well, scots-irish-mick. quite a crowd. >> it was a phenomenal thing. it was balanced more to the right, the first one of those shows that ever was. novak was the lead pony if you will. we took a measure, everybody's yelling how many words you got. they did a word count. we got 400 or 500.

novak had 1,100. mclaughlin had 2,200. >> mclaughlin was mad at novak for being close enough. >> your point about, if you wanted to settle a score with someone, chris, drop the good stuff on novak. >> let me ask you about that. eleanor, it seems like his columns were brilliant at getting to the heart of politics which is usually intermurals. the most visceral. the gut hatreds in my experience with politics is people within the same party not liking each other. he always seemed to know how to get to that fight in the republican party. >> right. what he was good at was getting at the scuffling in the wheelhouse. and state department versus national security. the intermural battles within the white house. it was dinner table gossip. i don't know how well it related around the country, frankly, but i think washington dined out on his column. and liberals as well as conservatives would drop something into his column, then

it was a great place to get an airing. but novak himself was so pleased that he was kept on at the "washington post." because he recognized that his era was passing. and he thought they could have let the old guy go. but it was fred hyatt, the editorial page editor, who said, you always learn something from the novak column. as you said in your setup, that's a very high standard in a very noisy journalistic area. >> he was a reporter columnist. there was always news in the column. there was always the meeting that you didn't -- people didn't want you to know brr he had the information in the column as well as the opinion. >> let's get back to our regular fighting with pat buchanan and eleanor clift. i want a left/right fight about this health care thing require think you're against it ask eleanor's for it, just guessing. with an epa estimated 32 miles per gallon.

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pat buchanan, eleanor clift. i think i'm somewhere on the center-left on the issue of health care. i want a system that makes health care accessible and reasonably affordable for people that don't have it now. and really starts a government commitment which we can fill out over time to get everybody insured, especially young, healthy people, get them all aboard. what do you think's going to happen between now and the end of the year? are we going to get a bill or not? >> i think we're going to get a bill. if the democrats don't produce, i think the anger against them in the midterm elections next

year will be quite strong. and they would quon dem obama's presidency to failure. if he doesn't get this after all he's invested. now, what he gets is up for grabs at this point. i'm waiting for the barack obama who the country voted for to show up in this battle. and they view everything through the last campaign. and they're saying, oh, he's a great closer. there's still lots of fight left on this public option. and if you use the analogy i think we're in the reverend wright stage of the campaign right now with health care. i think he can come back. and i think the public option is not dead. yet. >> i think the public option's dead but i do agree with eleanor -- look, barack obama's got to step in there himself and tell them, i can't get that through, you guys. and we can't get that, we can get this and this and this and this, some of the things you mentioned. now, put this together and i want it on my desk by october

15th. this is what we've got to go with. we've all tried the big thing, we're sorry we didn't get single payer and all that but we didn't get it. this is what we got to get. >> okay, i think we're together. he needs a core bill. let me ask you this, eleanor. can he get the 60 votes, are you with anthony wiener who was saying, you don't need 60, just jam it through with 51 or 50? >> i think there's -- the danger there is it gets so pock marked and they can take out things that don't directly relate to budget. but, you know, i think he'll have -- if he can't get the 60 he'll go with the 51. they'll getting some and they'll call ate victory and republicans will say it's a failure and then they'll go home and selke. they'll getting some and it will be significant. even insurance reform is significant. >> this they ram it through with 51 votes and try to do that he'll split his party in half, tear the party apart, sink the blue dogs and he may not even

get it. >> i think he needs 60 and 218. thank you, pat buchanan, eleanor clift. join us again tomorrow night at 5:00 and 7:00 eastern for more "hardball." right now it's time for "the ed show" with ed schultz. i'm ed schultz. this is "the ed show." good evening, americans. live from 30 rock in new york, it's "the ed show" on msnbc. tonight, we are clearing the air on public option. administration officials now insist the president has never distanced himself from the public option, despite what we've been saying the last couple of days. communications director for the white house, office of health care reform, linda douglass, will go head to head with me on that issue in just a moment. plus, the chairwoman of the congressional black caucus is here. she's got some sharp words for

the secretary, that is, kathleen sebelius. i've got a few words for her too. madam secretary, you're not in kansas anymore. joe the plumber is getting dumber by the minute. says he wants to beat the tar out of nancy pelosi? hey, speaker, if the secret service needs some backup, just give me a call. and at this hour, can you believe it? brett favre comes out of retirement again. minnesota vikings are going to give him a one-year deal, $12 million contract. i'll tell you what it means for the vikings and those cheeseheads in wisconsin, the packer fans. that's all coming up in my "playbook." get your cell phones out. we want a text survey tonight. here's the key issue. will the liberal revolt save a public option? "a" for yes, "b" for no, to 622639. we're going to get to my "op ed" in just a minute. first, the white house's mixed messages on health care. several white house officials are insisting nothing has