town halls. i cannot recall a time before this presidency when people felt they had to demonstrate their support for the second amendment by carrying loaded guns to presidential events. what are these people really trying to say? why do they need to bring loaded firearms to say it? that's our hot debate tonight. it's hammertime tonight. former house majority leader tom delay will be here to fight the good fight for the right and will to give us the inside skinny what's in his playbook for winning on "dancing with the stars" a town hall protestor learned why it's not smart to cross barney frank. we'll show you why tonight. finally, were be rod blagojevich might soon have to find another line of work. first we begin with the debate over health care reform. chuck todd is the chief white house correspondent for nbc news. news web's howard fineman is a msnbc political analyst. start with a couple of these options. you ram it through, you get 50

votes and the vice president to break the tie. do you what's called reconciliation. are they seriously talking about that opposite right now. >> senate democrats are seriously talking about that option. the leadership has always been somewhat mistrustful of this bipartisan president obama has sanctioned with the finance committee and saying to heck with that. we'll do it through reconciliation. if we do that, we can't get the public option. we can put all kinds of window dressing in there to try to pass a bill that enough house democrats would then support. that's what senate leaders are talking to me about. they may be bluffing. they may be doing that in order to try to put fire under that bipartisan thing. that's what they're talking about. i wrote about it on my blog. >> obviously that's one option. chuck, that's called a lot of things but it's certainly called reconciliation. ironically, it is usually when you get back with your wife after a fight. >> this is the opposite of it. >> in this case, it's the opposite. it's a divorce notice.

what do you make of the probability or plausibility of them saying to hell with the normal senate way of doing things, we're going to go with a simple majority or even 50 and use the vp to break the tie. >> this is a hammer that frankly the white house has not been hiding that they would think about using this. the president himself hinted at it in that interview he did with me in indiana two weeks ago. he said the bottom line is to get result. he wants the bipartisanship but if it's going to mean not getting a bill this year, that's not acceptable. i've talked to other people in the white house who think he thinks the whole 60 vote voted thing seems ridiculous if you have 55, 56 votes for something in the senate, that should be enough. so he is already, i think in, his own head has no problems with going a route that isn't 60 votes. i think he feels that the 60-vote threshold is unfair particularly when you have a bill like this which has become so party line or very polarized.

don't let the senate rules tie it up if you have the 55 votes, 56 votes that normally would be enough. >> howard, let's go back to the idea what, about going the regular route trying to go 60 votes and beating a filibuster that way. >> it doesn't seem like that's possible. >> mike enzi of wyoming? >> the problem with doing that is that you would then pass a bill in the senate that was -- that is way too conservative to be reconciled with whatever the house would vote for. whatever they would come up with in that fashion would just not sell in the house and even if they got to a conference committee on it, it would be impossible. the big problem is if you go the 50 vote route you can't have i'm told in terms of legislative rules you can't have the public option. >> what about the third option, chuck? i haven't asked but this today, the idea of saying okay, we're going to go for what we want, public option, all the good liberal things, the kind of thing that nancy wiener would like, the members of the black caucus would like, a liberal

bill, jam it, lose it and blame it on the republicans for killing the health care the american people want and then take it to the election next time. >> the problem is, let's say the anthony weiner, is bill that he would love to see i don't think could get more than 30 votes, 37, 40 votes in the senate. that isn't what they'ring go to do. they may play another game here which is call the bluff of the republicans. do you really want to fill bust ter this whole thing? almost force them to do the fill buster. >> like in the old days like in the movies. >> well, not necessarily that way where you draw it out, but force them to be the ones to stop it. then see you know, and then see if you can go the reconciliation route or go another way. find another corner. look, the two games being played is i think the white house is going to assess do, they jam it through, do the reconciliation, could be a political cost to some, could really hurt them with some conservative democrats or some independents or do they

go and call the bluff of all the republicans an see if they stick together. they might not stick together on this. >> let's try the joan walsh theory. she was on the other day. in fact, i think she did this on another program. pretend you're jimmy stewart like in the old mr. smith goes to washington" which i recommend everybody see at some time in their life, maybe what the idealists would like to see the senate be. we've put the bill together. we think it's right for the country. if the republicans want to debate it, we'll debate it for a copial weblgs. but at the end of a couple webs, we want to vote on this. if you still don't want us to vote, you're basically filibustering. you bring the cots in. stay here all night and the american people are going to watch you not debate us but basically delay us from doing what the majority wants done. force them to put the movie on. make them show themselves sleeping, standing up all night, listening to them read the bible, all those old tricks they do on the floor, make horses

asses out of themselves. force them to do it. say you have the right to do it. give them the full rights of the minority, let them show they're moss backers slowing this thing down. why not do that. >> i can see the 24-hour coverage. >> we'll be on. >> howard, we'll be up all night. >> have the cot out there too. >> absolutely. >> good theater and good democracy, wouldn't it? wouldn't it be democracy. >> there is another route here. you know, they do have the 60 votes, the democrats do. you could see them cutting a deal where they agree to get some of these democrats to not vote for the filibuster, you know, to get it onto the floor. don't forget there are two votes here, if you would do something like this. get it to the floor. yeah, and then ben nelson, for instance, just don't vote with the republicans on filibustering it, and you can vote against it after we've clear it had

through. >> bernie sanders unfortunately suggested that the first time and bernie sanders the socialist from vermont, independent vermont. >> shouldn't be cutting the deal. >> i know, but people tell me that the voters are too smart for that and will say to a moderate democrat, you voted to kill the fill bust ter, you voted to grease the skids for this bill, it's your fault even if you don't vote for final passage. chuck makes a good point. the voters may say look, you voted against our interests. >> i think they'll look at the final vote. there's another small complication here which is that senator ted kennedy and senator robert byrd are too frail and too sick to vote. >> byrd is voting sometime but not senator kennedy. >> i know that sounds like -- >> it could be a crucial point. >> getting the votes. >> the only way we'll know is if it comes down to a vote. let me ask you about two other people in our world, could he enlist the clintons, not the obamas? that's bill and hillary, the

president and secretary of state. george stephanopoulos made an amazing statement. let's hear him on "good morning america." >> white house officials have talked privately whether to use the clintons more on health care. you saw president clinton go out and speak to the left progress i bes in that net roots convention last week where he warned them of the consequences of failure there. there have also been discussions whether to employ secretary of state clinton. no final decision on that yet. >> howard, i always thought that this coalition and i know chuck's focused on it, this coalition of the clintons and barack obama is critical, not just on foreign policy but it's not -- this ace political merger. will they come out and help. >> what george said is the staff has talked about it. chuck may have better information than i, but from what i can tell, they have it, if they're going to do it, they haven't asked bill clinton about it yet. did i ask one top white house official what about it. are you going to have clinton

involved. he said it's news to me at this point. >> chuck, are you skeptical. >> i'm very skeptival. think about it for a minute. so this is the headline that the white house would want? the white house is struggling to sell health care so they're going to tap the two people who failed at it the last time there was a democratic administration. that's not the story they want. and that's the story they would get by tapping. however, this gets at a bigger problem for this administration. the only person they have to sell health care is the president. there is no other credible person. they don't have a good surrogate from capitol hill. ted kennedy's not available to do it, to get out there they need help here to sell this thing. >> barack obama has a lot of experience at winning as you said at the top of this segment. he doesn't have a lot of legislative experience. he doesn't. if it comes down to a few votes, especially if it's blue dogs, bill clinton would be very, very helpful. >> white conservatives?

>> hillary will turn her nose up at it but bill clinton could get involved. >> i think the big thing is for the president to lay out what he thinks is evenings essential to be part of any health care reform, why the country needs it. no more pussy footing. no more dancing around the subject. clear-cut statement as to what the american people need and he'll fight for it whether he gets it this year or eight years from now, this is what he's going to keep fighting for. ronald reagan did that with tax cutting an and strategy jib defense. other presidents have made clear, lincoln with emancipation. this is what i'm here for. he hadn't done that yet. >> very quickly, you guys brought up this issue of not understanding legislative battles. you wonder was health care jinxed from the beginning when they couldn't get tom daschle confirmed. they have not yet found a replacement for daschle and what his role was to be which was to get a bill out of the senate finance committee. that's why they were going to tap him. >> i agree. a lot of presidencies need more

than the president. jimmy carter needed burt lance, didn't have him. ronald reagan had jim baker and he was lucky to have him. sometimes you need more than the guy that was elected. thank you. up next, were are the protesters bringing loaded guns to rallies and outside obama town meetings. this is interesting. they bring the guns and bullets. the guns are loaded. why? this is "hardball." not gunplay. only on msnbc.

why are some protesters bringing loaded guns to presidential town halls? we'll ask former majority leader tom delay when he comes on. with my new netbook from at&t. with its built-in 3g network, it's fast and small, so it goes places other laptops can't. i'm bill kurtis, and wherever i go, i've got plenty of room for the internet. and the nation's fastest 3g network. gun it, mick.

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welcome back to "hardball." so why are people carrying loaded guns to presidential events these days and what message are they sending? john velakco is sit right with

me and brian levin is the director for the center for the study of hate and extremism and the author of the book is it the limits of dissent." i assume you gentlemen will disagree. people bring guns. right now, they've been doing it a lot. assault rifle was brought to an event the other day. at one event, a dozen armed people at a presidential events. if you're the secret service, you've got to keep an eye on everybody with a gun. they're an loutd to carry the gun but you've got to look at them. we're going to need a hell ever a lot of agents if they keep doing this. why do they bring loaded guns to presidential events. >> these are law abiding citizens. >> why. >> they're making a statement. gun eveners have been vilified for so long and the target of so many retrikzs to take away their guns, we strict when and where they can carry them. they're making the point we're tired of the government trying

to take our rights away. it's not just about health care. it's a bigger issue. >> what is the bigger issue. >> that the government wants to take away a lot of our freedoms. the second amendment is high on this list. when dh president campaigned, he changed as a supporter of the second amendment. when he came into office, he quickly turned the tables. >> didn't he back the decision to the individual right to bear arms. >> he said that he did. >> i mean after it happened. >> as soon as he took office. >> this year he did it, after the court ruled, he said fine with him. >> he said he supports the individual right to keep and bear arms but also supports legislation that would take that right away by banning so-called assault weapons. >> you don't think they should be banned. >> no. >> let me go to brian levin. what do you think of people bringing loaded pistols or, well, semiautomatic rifles to presidential events? >> well, look, this is not an issue about the second amendment or gun rights. here's what i mean. antonin scalia in the opinion d.c. versus heller which

affirmed an individual right to private gun ownership said look the second amendment is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner and for whatever purpose. i think it's absurd we should have guns now as jewelry or as a political sign when we have a fundamental right like gun ownership in the united states as covered by the second amendment. the government is still able to make reasonable measures with regard to restricting it. i think for presidential protection, it is entirely reasonable to extend the perimeter that guns are not allowed. we have to do that because it's just too risky for our head of state, irrespective whether it's george bush or barack obama, the fact of the matter is the supreme court held 5-4 that private gun ownership is a fundamental right but by the same token, we can regulate it. i think in this regard, we must. and the gun owners of america has always taken extreme positions and used deception. they said recent measures by the administration were going to ban

bb guns or toy guns or ban reloading. they engage in fear tactics and deception and i think that should be exposes here, as well. >> let's focus on the presidential issue. how close do you think a person should be allowed a gun to a president when he's coming out in public. >> as close as the secret service will allow. >> i'm asking you. you said it's a fundamental right. how far should we let it go? suppose you got into a big high school gym and president obama or president anybody is having a town meeting. should they be allowed to walk in the door armed. >> support the right of the people to bear arms. >> should they be allowed to come into the president's company, sit in the first row with a loaded gun. >> i've been at events. >> i'm asking a question. >> former governor of arizona. >> suppose the president has a town hall meeting at a college gym or fieldhouse. should everybody in the place be allowed to have a gun? >> if it's legal to carry guns in that location, it's fine with me. >> fine with you from everybody in the room comes in with a gun. >> i would feel more safe if law

abiding citizen who's use guns over a million times a year successfully. >> how would a secret service agent know which of the people who came to a presidential event intended to use the gun? how would they know. >> secret service responsibility ultimately. >> how would they know which one. >> may i interject. >> i want to -- how would they know which person intends to use it? most people bring guns for a person, east self-defense or they may feel threatened by a brez they don't like because they think he's after his gun rights. >> i don't think that's the type of people we're dealing with. >> how do you know? you're one of those people. you said the ez's trying to take away your gun rights. >> if a criminal shows up. >> a law abiding gun rights advocate like you shows up with a gun, you don't like this president's position on guns, do you? >> no, no. >> why would you be particularly trustworthy in a situation carrying a gun with the president present how would we know you wouldn't be a true zealot and take that gun out. >> because gun owners in this

country are the most law abiding segment of society. >> after a person buys a gun, they're law abiding if they follow the law, therefore they will not use it criminally? >> there are criminals who use guns and that's all the more reason. >> i'm asking you a simple question. if you were in the secret service, would you open the door to a presidential event for people to come in carrying guns. >> i don't think those laws are going to change. >> would you if you were head of the secret service let people walk into a presidential meeting carrying guns? would you. >> i think it would be fine. >> would you? you you would. >> the white house secret service, would you let people come into the auditorium 10,000 people all carrying guns. >> the president has armed security. >> i'm asking you, would you do that. >> i'm going to put the question to you. you can take five minutes to answer it. if you're head of the secret service, would you let regular people walk in to a presidential event armed. >> regular people are the ones who are supposed to run this country. absolutely.

threw don't want to lose their second amendment rights. >> you would have no problem with that. >> if they're abiding by the law. >> he said it's okay if he were head of the white house secret service detail to let the whole room fill with people carrying guns. i don't know what to make of that except it's a pure position. >> it's pure and someone insane as someone who just lectured law enforcement on friday about this there's a ril risk of assassination in this country. you see the anger out there. yes, most gun owners are law abiding. we have a fundamental right to interstate travel but i wouldn't allow someone with an suv to ram into an arena. we have a right to freedom of speech but we don't let people with bullhorns shout down the president at town halls either. antonin scalia said that you know, we can regulate this stuff. this is not for any purpose whatsoever. the extremes positions that gun owners of america consistently take.

>> what would be your position on the level of firepower? would it be okay for a person to go to a presidential meeting carrying a semiautomatic rifle. >> brian's talking about. >> let me ask you the question. would it be okay if a guy walked into a debate between mccain or obama carrying a semiautomatic rifle? would that bother you. >> it bothers me when the government restricts the right to bear arms. >> even from carrying a semiautomatic weapon into a presidential debate. >> you're talking about a hypothetical. >> no, i'm not. hypothetic hypothetical. >> a dozen firearms in phoenix. >> chris and brian is talking about the latest decision. >> we're talking about common sense. >> thank you. >> regulations can be in place but these people are not breaking any laws. that's why they're allowed to carry them. >> that's why we're arguing about it. >> we're not talking about a law. you say it seems perfectly reasonable. how many people do you think like you? it's reasonable for the rez to be surrounded by armed people. >> the majority of the american people support concealed carry, the right to keep and bear arms,

the majority of the united states. >> it's okay to go to presidential event with a concealed weapon? >> the majority of the united states senate, 58 members supported a concealed carry amendment just over a week ago. in the united states senate. that's democrats, republicans alike. this is an issue that cuts across party lines. people have a fundamental right to defend themselves. >> do you fly in airplanes much. >> i'm asking. does it bother you they have metal detectors. >> yeah, i think that the -- we supported the right of pilots to be armed. >> i'm talking about somebody getting on plane. somebody getting on a plane, you don't think they should have a gun. >> law abiding citizens with conceal carry permits should not be disarmed. >> we should have people flying on ampls carrying guns. >> there's been so much misinformation. >> you keep saying. no, i go on a plane, i have a metal detector. i think some of this stuff at tsa doesn't make sense. i think there's a lot of stupid

stuff that goes on but i think the metal detector makes sense because i don't want anybody getting on a plane with a gun. >> any time a state or locality makes it easier for citizens to carry guns, the chick littles of the world say the sky is at all. if citizens were allowed to carry guns on airplane. >> let me tell who i i kiss agree. if i get on a subway in new york city, i'd like to to know there's no guns. i'd like to know -- lied like to have a metal detector at movie theaters. i wouldn't mind if a cop stopped people in the street if they had a gun. >> sounds like you don't want to be free. >> i don't want to have my city turn into dodge city. >> how many people get murdered in this country every year by guns. >> thank you very much, john. you're perfectly right to your opinion but i think it's insane to fill gyms and fieldhouses with people carrying semiautomatic weapons and expect the president of the united states to come in. the number of assassinations in

our history is extraordinary. lincoln, garfield, mckinley, teddy roosevelt was shot at, fdr was shot at and they shot the mayor of chicago by accident. harry truman was shot at. jack kennedy was killed. jerry ford was shot at twice. ronald reagan was almost killed had it not been for the secret service agent, he would have been dead. we live in a dangerous society. let's not make it more dangerous. it's a free country. are you armed? >> this is d.c. >> are you a birther. >> i was born. >> do you believe the president was born in this country? >> i have no opinion one way or the other. >> you're not parliamentarian of that crowd though, are you. >> i'm a second amendment advocate. >> but you're not part of that crowd you're not one of those people that doubts. >> are you one of those people that doubts he's a legitimate american? >> i'm not taking the bait. i'm just an advocate of the second. >> do you think he's a legitimate american? >> do i think the president.

>> yeah, he was born here. >> i'm here to talk about. >> you can't answer that question? okay. you don't have to answer the question. i think he was born in the united states. i don't think he should be picked up as an illegal alien like you guys seem to think. >> no, we never said anything close to that. >> what are you saying. >> we've never said anything. >> john is not taking a position. he's agnos tick on the issue. brian, thank you for being on. we see what happens when barney franks spots a ufo in this town meeting coming up on msnbc. new blackberry, huh ? yeah. me, too. how sick is the web browsing ? all the apps, gps, video... yeah... you didn't get your blackberry with the verizon network, did you ? no. sorry. so it doesn't work here, does it ? no, but... paperweight mode. all right.

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>> back to "hardball." first up, crazy rhythm. last night congressman barney frank held a town hall meeting on health care in dartmouth, mass pass and will a woman

questioner compare obama health care with hitler. he didn't like the comparison and thought it was loony tune. >> why do you agree with the policies as obama has, why are you. >> when you're asking that question, i'm going to revert to my ethnic heritage and answer your question with a question. on what planet do you spend most of your time? it's a tribute to the first amendment that this kind of vile contemptible nonsense is so freely propagated. >> ma'am, trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. >> what do you say to someone zoned into some other universe? time for tonight's big number. covering all your bases. today president obama is calling on support from religious leader who's see health care reform as a moral issue. according to "the new york times," he'll address over 1,000 of those religious leaders in

conference calls to get their support. he's reaching out to over 1,000 leaders of faith today to preach the gospel of health care, tonight's big number. up next, the hammer, former house majority leader tom, they're calling him twinkle toes delay takes the stage. this is "hardball" only on msnbc. (announcer) illness doesn't care where you live... ...or if you're already sick... ...or if you lose your job. your health insurance shouldn't either. so let's fix health care. if everyone's covered, we can make health care as affordable as possible. and the words "pre-existing condition" become a thing of the past... we're america's health insurance companies. supporting bipartisan reform that congress can build on.

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i'm amanda drury with your cnbc mark wrap. stocks rebounded today after a shaky start. the dow jones industrials finished 61 points. the s&p added almost 7 and the nasdaq gained nearly 13 points. a surprise drop in inventory sent oil prices soaring more

than 5%. more than 4% higher at $72.23 a barrel. druck manufacturer merck was today's top gainer after a court upheld a patent on singulair. and shares in swiss bank ubs fell almost 3% after it agreed to hand over details on more than 4,000 secret accounts to u.s. authorities. tree trying to determine how much of the $18 billion in those accounts is the result of evading u.s. taxes. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." >> january 20th, and i want to know, why are you people ignoring his struggle? >> lower your taxes.

>> how dare you? >> no more lies. no more lies. >> what are you going to do to restore this country back to what our founders created according to the constitution? >> i'm not a lobbyist with all kind of money to stuff in your pocket. >> nazi policies as obama has? >> welcome back to "hardball." rowdy crowds some carrying guns showing up at town meetings in all parts of the countries protesting health care reform and some protesting the way things are going in this corrupt. are they mad about health care or the presidency or what seems to be the nature of the 21st country? tom declay, i think you miss the boat, congressman. the country was turning in your direction. you just missed it. you joined the cast of "dancing with the stars." we've got to talk about that. who's your partner? let's get some of the scuttle

out of the way. you have a partner, her name, sir. >> her name is cheryl burke. i got the best partner one could get. can you believe it? can you believe it? cheryl burke. >> i'm impressed. let me ask you now, she's a professional dancer, right? >> correct, yes. even in the dance studios. >> let me get the set on you. are you one of those texas boyce, you know, square dancers, the old days wearing the boots and the tux together and all that stuff. >> black tie and boots and dancing the texas two-step, poleka, waltz. i even took disco lessons once. >> well, let me ask you, can you do the british quick step, that stuff you have to do to the songs like cole porter and irving berlin, that's the hardest one for me to do. >> i can't do it right now but i hope to do it. my wife and i have always wanted to take ballroom dance. now they're going to pay me to take lessons. so this is cool. the only downside, i've got to

show you, look at this shoe. a tex can doesn't wear a shoe like this. this is what they're making me wear. it's a little pump with high heels. >> are you going to be a little light in that shoe? no more comment. let's drop this conversation. let me ask you about what's going on in the country. you're a man of the right and proudly so. i wonder whether you're even comfortable the way it's headed. we've got people that question whether the president is legitimate or not, whether he was born in the united states or not and they mean it viscerally. they don't think he is. where are you on that one. >> chris, you shouldn't be surprised about this. this has been going on for. when i did my town hall meetings, i'll never forget one back in the '80s on health care by the way. they brought in quadripleenl i cans on gurnness and dumped them on the floor in front of my podium. this is not new. what's new is the people that came into disrupt my town

meetings, we just let them go on because it usually turned off the people that were there. what's happening here is the american people are all on their side. and as evidenced by barney frank. barney treated them with arrogance and that's not what you do. you let them go. but the problem is, they're making an impact. and the american people are on their side. >> he with, let me ask you a couple questions where you stand. we have some people on that were pretty far right but they say they're not birthers. they don't question the president's legitimacy. how far do you go these days, mr. leader. >> are you over there with the birthers with, them, are you over there with those who think it is a hitler ariane plan like that woman in massachusetts said yesterday. >> do you think it's hitler like what the president is doing. >> i want the president, nancy pelosi, harry reid to keep the federal government out of my health care, period. >> when you turned 65, they're getting into your health care whether you like it or not.

medicare is a government program. >> i want medicare to be privatized. it shouldn't be a government program. it's the thiching driving up health care costs, not that we don't have a public option. it's medicare, medicaid and s-chip. the government run programs that are running up health care costs. that's where the reform ought to be. >> so you want to get rid of what's known as hcfa and all that will government apparatus, replace it with private sector health care, with private sector insurance. >> amen. >> let me ask you this. you keep skipping over this birther thing. a half dozen members of what was your delegation, you built that delegation, you built that republican stronghold down there cull berson, people like that are birthers and raise the questions of the president's legitimacy. the implication is this guy ought to be picked up because he was never naturalized and therefore, in the country illegally. where are you on that one? >> i would like the president to produce his birth certificate.

i can. i can. most illegal aliens here in america can. why can't the president of the united states produce a birth certificate. >> are you actively seeking that paper? do you want him to produce -- are you tom delay with your political and professional and career history in the united states government questioning this man's bona fide. >> no, no. >> you're questioning it. you want to see his paper. >> chris, the constitution of the united states specifically says. >> i know it. >> you have to be a natural born citizen. >> i never asked you for yours. >> ask me, i'll give it to you. >> has anybody ever said, mr. delay, give me your birth certificate, of course not because you've got a texas accent and seem homegrown. >> chris, can i speak? they have asked me if i'm a resident of texas. they even sued me about being a resident of texas. how about that? the democrats sued me about being a resident of texas. that's just like asking me for

my birth certificate. >> no it's not. >> what's the difference. >> mr. delay, did anyone ever ask you if you're an american? who? >> democrats have looked through my -- are you kidding. >> have you ever they ever asked whether you're an american or not? >> they have spent 15 years trying to demommize me and put me in jail. of course, they've asked me if i'm an american citizen. >> let me tell you something. the problem they have with you is not whether you're homegrown or not. they figure you're definitely homegrown. they've got other problems with you. >> chris, will you do me a favor. >> sure. >> will you do me a favor? will you ask the president to show me his gift certificate, i mean his gift certificate, his birth certificate. >> no, i'm not going to ask him because i don't get to ask him. you want me to go up to the president and say can i see your papers like he's an illegal alien? when i've seen -- here's what i've seen. i've seen a honolulu newspaper announcing his birth in hawaii. i've seen that. do you think they cooked up that

newspaper announcement back in 1961, do you think they cooked it up so that he could za be president. >> as a newspaper article, an official document? >> do you think they cook it had up. >> wait a minute. is a newspaper article an official document. >> it's common sense we're talking about here. common sense. >> there isn't anybody in america that's been born in america that didn't get a birth certificate at obama's age. now, maybe at my age, there are people born. >> they gave us the document that was made available to anybody in hawaii who asked for a birth certificate. that document they give you you. that's all i know. let me ask you about this gun thing. you're a gun rights thing. can it be carried too far? if you were head of the secret service, would you let people come into presidential meetings carrying arms. >> no. >> what do you make of those who think that's a legitimate demand. >> to use the second amendment. >> that's in the a law. that's a security matter. and the secret service has every

right to take a meeting where the president is and make sure nobody has a gun on them. that has nothing to do with passing a law keeping people from carrying a gun. in fact, i'm really mad because i got indicted they took my concealed carrier weapon license away from me. i think that's a violation of the second amendment. >> okay. thank you, sir. >> you bet. >> good to have you on. i don't think i'll ask him for his birth certificate. >> how about these shoes. >> i think you're going through some changes, sir. indications the president may be backing away from the public option. has liberals fired up. what can they do? the politics fix is next. this is "hardball" as you can see only on msnbc. when i was seventeen i was not good to my skin. long summer days and not enough sleep. what i wouldn't do for a do-over. (announcer) new neutrogena total skin renewal. gentle exfoliating puffs and micro-vibrations speed surface cell turnover. it's clinically tested to help undo the look of a year's worth of skin aging

in just one week. that summer of sun? i just made it disappear. (announcer) new total skin renewal. neutrogena recommended most by dermatologists. do-overs do exist. more on that verbal confrontation between barney frank and that health protestor at that town meeting that said that barack obama is pushing hitler message when "hardball" returns.

time for the "politics fix" with joe walsh and jean volko. let's listen.. >> why are you supporting him? >> when you ask me that question i'm going to avert to my ethnic heritage and answer that question with a question. on what planet do you spend most of your time? the tribute to the first

amendment this contemptible nonsense is so free lly propagated. a conversation with you is like arguing with a dining room table. i have no interest in that. >> he doesn't want to argue with a dining room table. is this the way democrats should approach their critics on health care? >> you know, i just have to say god bless barney frank. i know he lost his temper and a coal, but he's a hero to a lot of liberals, chris. we still come at it, still come back as friends. but what's going on is a kind of thuggishness and we're supposed to treat these people like they deserve an equal place at the table when they're organized by right wingers. we had someone on your show that says he's not a birther. he's a birther. he's with we the people. everybody is acting like katie

is just a normal person. she's part of the right wing movement. these aren't just normal americans scared about what's going to happen. they're whipped up into a frenzy and i'm proud of barney frank today. >> are these people misrepresenting themselves as individuals when they're part of a faction that's been led to say what they say and have, in fact, been given talking points? >> whether they've been organized by any outside group or not, the fact is that they did show new the dead of summer to a town hall to talk about a very wonky issue. i don't think you can discount that. that said, clearly they are seeking confrontation and they are seeking to use confrontations like the one that congressman frank had to sort of manufacturer a show that there's opposition perhaps beyond the numbers or of a different intent -- >> to what effect? to engage in debate and argue the issues? or to shut down this move for health care reform just by static? >> yes, the latter absolutely.

they're not coming there to have a debate. the folks who do come there with legitimate questions are being drowned out. so to that extent, kudos for barney frank moving on from who is seeking a confrontation to someone who has legitimate questions. nevertheless, we're playing this clip and opponents will be rallied by clips like this and clips showing confrontations to be further confrontational. >> i think liberals are being rallied by seeing barney frank speak the truth. the idea that a gay jewish man is being told he supports nazi policies. i mean, it's got to stop. >> i guess you've nailed it. we'll be right back. i want to talk about this. i think the only sheer winners if barack obama doesn't win with health care is going to be the republican party. there will be a winner if he loses. hin shield against acid attack.

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what's in it for me? i'm not looking for a bailout, just a good paying job. that's why i like this clean energy idea. now that works for our whole family. for the kids, a better environment. for my wife, who commutes, no more gettin' jerked around on gas prices... and for me, well, it wouldn't be so bad if this breadwinner brought home a little more bread. repower america. i hope our senators are listening.

>> it seems the republican has a clear ambition now. sack the quarterback, humiliate the other team. they get a double win, they defeat the president on health care and claim he was trying to be a socialist. >> i agree. there is somewhat of a risk that they could be seen as obstructionist. polls do show the majority of americans do support some version of health care reform.

but that's vastly outweighed by handing barack obama what would be his first major defeat and they would try to present it as a repudiation of this big government agenda they say obama and congressional democrats are trying to institute. >> joan, you talked to a lot of democrats in your reporting, do they realize if they find problems with the president's plan that they don't think is perfect, if they bring down this thing to defeat, they have handed the other party something to hammer them for years to come? >> i don't think they realize that, chris, because obama is not saying that to them. instead you have rahm emanuel confronting progressive democrats and telling them not to gang up on the blue dogs, the people who have been the president's loyalist supporters are being kicked by this white house. and that's where the real risk is. you know, to see the public option decried as some left wing plot, i didn't know it was left wing to care about waste and fraud in government and in spending. and obama himself has said the

public option is crucial to hold down costs. if he passes a bill that doesn't hold down costs and the tax payers are holding the bag, he's toast either way. so this can't be a win at any cost thing. >> joan, we don't always agree as you pointed out, but you had a fascinating notion. don't call it a kbhuk noouk leer option. say if the other side wants to filibuster we'll give them all the time in the world to filibuster, but at some point it's going to be clear to the american people that's what they're doing, they're filibustering. call for a vote. let them talk. bring the bunk beds in, stay for a month or two, stay till christmas or new year's, but make them filibuster like in q. mr. smith goes to washington." i think it's a great idea. >> i agree. >> well, it was your idea. >> it's a lot of people's ideas. >> why not do that, ken? just do it like the old days. let them filibuster but make them filibuster.

>> you're counting on people paying attention and people having a strong reaction against this type of tactic and i don't think we can say that that is a given. you know, there are a very small number of people who are paying attention now. a lot of people are not still. >> thank you, ken, thank you, joan. join us for more "hardball." right now it's time for "the ed show" with ed shultz. >> >> i'm ed shultz. this is the ed show. good evening. it's "the ed show" on msnbc. it's about that time to fish or cut bait, that moment on health care. mr. president, the nice guy stuff with the republicans is really wearing thin with the left. the liberal lions are starting to roar. i spoke with two members of the congress today, both say it's

time for you, mr. president, to draw a line in the sand. dr. howard dean will weigh in on that in just a moment. white house officials are now saying they're surprised that the left of the left feels so strongly about this. we'll see what congress and dennis kucinich has to say about that. the president just got an earful from people of faith. tens of thousands are now calling on him to see that this is deeper than politics. this is about morality. a key leader in that movement will join me at the bottom of the hour. you're going to want to see it. plus, congressman barney frank knows how to do the smack down. plus more on the race in pennsylvania. but first, tonight's op-ed. well, the white house is -- well, they're looking for