3rd and found that his situation was deteriorating, that his prostate cancer was no longer responding to treatment and that he has three months or less to live. now, the justice minister said he is conscious of the deeply held feelings, especially by the families of american victims of this, but he said that megrahi now faces a sentence that is imposed by a higher power and that no court can overrule. and he said that here in scotland, people pride themselves on their humanity and that the perpetration of such an atrocity as the lockerbie bombing should not be the basis to lose sight of who we are and what we believe, the scottish people. it was on that basis that he made this very controversial decision. he had intense pressure, especially from the united states, even secretary of state hillary clinton spoke out very

bluntly about this. >> i knew a lot of these families. i talked with them about what a h horror they had experienced, and i just think it is absolutely wrong to release someone who has been in prison based on the evidence about his involvement in such a horrendous crime. >> reporter: now, i guess you could say the scottish justice minister's answer to that is that just because the victims of that atrocity were not shown compassion does not give the scottish people, the scottish government, a reason to deny compassion to a man who is now dying. so, we understand that megrahi will leave this prison, if he hasn't left already -- we haven't seen him, but we're not sure that we will. he's expected to leave now or in the next few minutes, go directly to the airport, where it's understood that a plane has been flown from libya, and

inside that plane we understand is colonel moammar gadhafi's son who will escort mr. megrahi home to libya. >> thank you. on the phone with us, senator frank lautenberg, democrat from new jersey. your thoughts? >> well, my thoughts are, first of all, disappointing, because when we talk about compassion for megrahi and think about what he did to 270 families across the world, it's outrageous. these were young people typically. a lot of them had been students abroad, coming home to meet their families. it was christmas. and there was no compassion there and there was no thought of family reunion, and here we want to show pity to this evil individual who brought down that airplane and reunite him with his family? i think it's outrageous. >> what of this? libya, as you likely know, has the largest oil reserves in africa. the united kingdom currently

imports, i don't know, 30%, 40% of its oil from the gulf of sidrah or libya. it is believed by 2015 the united kingdom could double that number to 80% of their oil coming from the united kingdom. is that, quite simply, the trade of a terrorist for access to oil fields? >> well, it would be terrible if that was the case. that we surrender our liberty, our safety to a commercial deal, it doesn't sound right to me. and the libyans showed bad faith all along and finallied that had to admit that they had participated in a heinous crime and agreed to compensate the families. well, there is no compensation for those families. >> sure. >> and to worry about this man in his last days, he's on his way to death, they say, but the people who survived those families have a life sentence, a life sentence of abc sensence,

heartbreak, et cetera. to be worried about this man's condition i think is kind of bewildering, i must tell you. >> senator lawsuiten berg, stay with me a second. bert ammerman lost his brother in the lockerbie crash and has served as a spokesman for all the families on that plane. the emotion you feel this morning. >> absolutely maddening. it hit me this morning. 20 years later our loved ones have to be found guilty for being on the plane and we as families have to be guilty for pressuring our government to face the truth and justice. fortunately we have had some like senator lautenberg to help us, but everything in this 20-year odyssey has been reluctant cooperation from governments. to talk about compassionate release, my brother was blown out of the air at 31,000 feet. he would have had to have a parachute. it makes no sense except big business, oil, let's open up the

libyan oil. >> what strikes me, senator lautenberg, again, 40% of the oil coming into england comes out of the gulf of sidrah and lib libya. 1% of the oil for american oil comes from there. does that explain why american politicians and -- i shouldn't be so crass, because i would hope we have a moral standard in effect, but when you look at the available energy sources to england and this decision that's hard to make heads or tails of otherwise, how do you make a decision that that is a trade of a terrorist for oil fields? >> you're suggesting they're paying a ransom to get oil. >> yes. >> well then woe beyond is civilization. it cannot be conducted on that basis. libya has to sell that oil. they need the revenue. and they're going to sell it. and no incident of this type is going to interrupt the flow of that oil or the flow of

commerce. so, that's -- it's not valid. >> bert, you get the last word. >> well, it's 20 years later and this is the sad last chapter on this odyssey. i at least thought that one individual, and that's only one had been convicted, but at least serve the sentence. today's enemies are tomorrow's allies, and the first day that gada fi is out of power and dies, i'll be the first one to support reopening relations with libya but not a day before. >> bert, senator lautenberg, thank you so much. contessa brewer here, of course. good morning, contessa. what's going on? senator ted kennedy wants to make sure his senate seat is filled quickly should he lose his battle with brain cancer. he sent a letter to massachusetts governor deval patrick. i am writing to you about an issue that concerns me deeply. the continuity of representation for massachusetts should a vacancy occur. anne thompson is in hyannis, massachusetts. tell us more about the letter. >> reporter: well, the letter --

in that letter, contessa, senator kennedy asked that the state law regarding succession of a senate seat is amended. currently, under state law, if a u.s. senate seat becomes vacant during this term, there is a special election that is to be held sometime within about a five-month period. there is no provision in the law for a gubernatorial appointee to fill that seat in the interim. senator kennedy is asking that the law be amended, that the governor be given the power to appoint someone to fill that senate seat until a special election is held, and that that person promise not to run for the senate seat, that they just serve as a place holder. now, what's not said in this letter, first of all, is one of the reasons many people speculate why senator kennedy wrote this letter, is his concern about health care reform and should that come to a vote and he would not be able to cast

that vote on behalf of massachusetts. he says that massachusetts deserves to have two votes in the senate, not just one. the other thing, obviously, even larger than the issue of health care reform, which has been the issue of senator kennedy's career, is obviously his own health issues. you know he was diagnosed with malignant brain cancer in may of 2008. and while he does not address his health directly, he does say that this is an issue that concerns him and the great joy, the great privilege of his public life, has to be -- has been to serve as senator and continue to serve as senator for the state of massachusetts. continue anne, thank you very m. a disturbing picture of what was going on in the control tower when a helicopter and plane collided over the hudson river. a controller is heard jobing about a dead cat. we have plenty of gas in the

grill, fire up the cat. according to the transcript, he continued to batter just moments before the crash. afghanistan's second presidential election. taliban terror attacks shut down more than a dozen polling sites. insurgents launched scattered suicide and rocket attacks. coming up, richard engel will have a live update from kabul. meantime, a new poll finds the majority of americans, 51%, say the war in afghanistan is not worth fighting. that's up six points in a month. in 2004, the cia turned to private security contractor blackwater usa to help carry out a secret program to kill top members of al qaeda. according to "the new york times," it cost the cia several million dollars. a senior official tells nbc news blackwater was hired at an early stage of the program which never became fully operational. blackwater is nhas come under

heavy criticism for its alleged role in a 2007 shooting that left 17 iraqi civilians dead. the transportation department is developing plans to wind down clash for clunkers. dealers are on pace to exhaust the program's money by early next month. hundreds of dealers across the country have already withdrawn from the program because they say they're not getting reimbursed fast enough by the government. secretary raiy lahood says dealers will get their money back. they just have to wait longer than they would like. >> thank you so much. more ahead on the "morning meeting," including president obama making a new appeal to conservatives to support his health care plan on moral grounds as the white house tries to consider a new strategy to get health reform passed. is our government's ability to do this a direct referendum on our ability to be governed, period? and michelle obama's shorts at the other end of the spectrum. people are weighing in on whether her casual attire at the

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all right. welcome back. team obama making a hard sell on health care this thursday. about four hours from now, the president makes his appeal on conservative radio, going one on wuk with michael smir canish. we will carry that interview live on the andrea mitchell show later today. later this afternoon, the president will attempt to rally grassroots groups including organizing for america. it's an event that the dnc headquarters there, the president making an appearance. and then showing his range, yesterday the president appeared

live on the espn show "nascar now" and asked faith leaders to push reform on a conference call. this was just yesterday. he discussed what he calls the moral obligation to reform the health care system. meantime, as the senate's so-called gang of six prepare for a conference call of their own tonight at 9:00, the "wall street journal" has the following headline. the white house and democrats are considering a strategy to break the health care reform bill into two parts and pass the most expensive provisions solely with democrat votes that could speed up the vote and get a measure passed by the end of this year. but because of special interests, because of all -- the way our government is set up, is there anything in the health care reform bill at this point that actually provides and mandates so there's health insurance for everybody and controls cost, which is why we started this conversation in the first place. there are some out there like our next guest who says you may get health reform but it won't reduce costs nor provide

coverage, which will make you wonder what we're doing. mike taibbi with another brilliant piece in "rolling stone." i recommend it to you. there's the cover of the magazine. in a second, you'll see the cover of the article itself. sick and wrong. you argue that this is not only a health care issue but a direct referendum on our government's ability to function. >> right. >> why? >> i covered the presidential campaign all last year, and health care was the number-one issue on the minds of democratic voters. i mean, voters specifically elected this president to deal with this problem. >> mm-hmm. >> and the same people elected a gigantic democratic majority in the house, 60 votes in the senate. if they were ever going to do this, this was the time to do it. if they end up coming up small on this issue now when they had the first chance in a generation to actually do something, it's going to tell us our government is really not capable of handling an urgent national emergency. >> we know that. we watched them with the banks and effectively they empowered the banks to continue to

function at the expense of the taxpayers. >> right. >> katrina. crisis going further back, totally different time, no response, inability to react. health care, spent 17%, 18% of our gdp. you know the statistics. >> right. >> what can the american voter do other than vote for a new president or vote for a new congressman next year? if they agree with your assessment, this is a referendum on our government's ability to do what has been asked of government. that if that's not happening because special interests control the congress, what can people do to effect that? >> well, i think in the short term there's something can do. they can pressure their sitting congressmen to not vote for this bill if it ends up being completely watered down and doesn't have a public option. >> how will they even know? >> how will who know? >> how will the voter know if this is a good bill or bad bill? there's so much propaganda around the whole conversation. >> true. >> they don't get into the three pilars of mandate, cost control, accessibility. none of that gets talked about because of the scare tactics.

>> true. and there will be a mandate but it will be individual. in other words, everybody will have to buy insurance, go out and get one, but that's going to be the only thing with teeth in the bill in end. >> the most interesting thing that i thought you wrote in the piece or one of them was the fact that all the garbage, the things that protect the drug companies the things that protect the health insurance companies, are already in the bill. >> right. >> and that the good ideas, the strong aspects of single payer and option have been pushed outside, we're sending the crap in hoping the good ideas get in the bill. >> most people in washington believe this was a handshake deal between the white house and the insurance and pharmaceutical industries from the very start. you know, the evidence for that is that just a few weeks ago pharma, which represents the pharmaceutical industry, agreed to pitch in $150 million to help publicize and support this bill, which, of course, wouldn't happen p if there was anything in the bill that would adversely affect those people. >> what if everybody in american for a month bought their drugs

from canada? in other words, if the american people really want to see health care reform and don't feel they're getting that delivered to them from their government, that the government still is the agent of health insurers and drug companies, not patients, and for that matter -- or doctors for that matter. >> right. i think that's the next step. right now it's shown that voting alone suspect really going to do it. the only power people have is their own vote and their own dollars. at this point we'll have to vote with our dollars in some way that forces these people to pay attention. that's a good idea. >> matt, good to spend time with you. pick it up, check it out online, rolling stone, it's a nice piece and great journalism. the american status quo seems to be generational theft no matter where you look. you're like, oh, we'll just do this by stealing from the children. we'll carry the interview with the president live at 1:10 this afternoon. if there is something you want

him to ask the president, send it -- questions@msnbc.com. we'll put it in the queue and it may well get asked. do stay with us on ms for all the obvious reasons, not only the health care coverage but ongoing coverage of the lockerbie release. contessa has breaking news. >> we're looking live at what we believe is the convoy carrying the lockerbie bomber. his name is abdel baset al megrahi. we believe this is the convoy that is taking him from the prison where he had been sentenced for the 1988 bombing of pan am flight 103 over lockerbie, scotland. in 2001 he was convicted and sentenced. but a scottish judge says because he has prostate cancer and is going to die, that scottic law required him to release megrahi on compassionate grounds, but now megrahi gets to go home to libya.

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all right. welcome back. breaking news as we are looking at live pictures in scotland, contessa, al megrahi being released. >> here's the guy, if you can imagine, responsible for the deaths of almost 300 people over midair in lockerbie, scotland, in 1988. it looks like there's a convoy that's arrived at the prison to pick him up and he gets to return home to his family, gets to return home to his native lin ya because a judge says that scottish law requires the compassionate release of this man who now has prostate cancer and is going to die. >> we spoke with both senator frank lautenberg earlier in the program and bert ammerman, whose

brother perished in that flight. we'll be joined by jack and kathleen flynn, whose son was aboard that flight. will's such a list of things here, but the possibility that this is a politically motivated decision to get access to energy resources in libya, that this is either an act of compassion for a terrorist for reasons we are -- hard to understand for the reasons you just said or it's an act of compassion for a terrorist for reasons that are understandable because it is a trade for energy. i say understandable in the sense that there is a trade here where it's a person for energy, both -- i don't know which one's more appalling. >> but, again, the judge is pointing out that scottish law requires that if inmates have terminal illnesses and they apply for compassionate release, that the judge considers this. the fact of the matter is he is a terrorist. >> considers this and does this are different things. >> it is -- it is true. it's appalling that someone who could be responsible for the deaths of so many people could

now -- i mean, here you have moammar gadhafi sending his son to accompany him -- >> and a private airplane. >> -- back home. absolutely. >> so, moammar gadhafi sends a private airplane with one of his children on it to pick up a man who perpetrated one of the most offensive assaults ever, right? i mean, literally to blow up a commercial airline and kill innocent victims in the sky, purely for reasons of malice, to terrorize, is, again, one of the most heinous crimes that an individual on this planet can commit against other people. and so, it's beyond my comprehension what the room for compassion is in a situation like this. >> well, the scottish officials say there was no secret political deal, there is no deal to promote the oil interests that they have in libya. they are rebutting that, they say. and, in fact, a lot of british

people support this le re lease on compassionate grounds. they say, look, he's going to die. he has a terminal illness. what's the point of keeping him in prison until his death? >> well, just the fact that he blew 300 people out of the sky -- >> i'm not -- not me. he killed alumni from my alma mater, syracuse. >> not suggesting you want to defend him. >> 35 of the alumni from my alma mater were killed over locker e lockerbie, scotland. >> we're joined by jack and kathleen flynn, bert ammerman soon to join us, too, his brother died in this attack. jack and kathleen, your son was killed. your response this morning. >> i thought it was incredible that, you know, after 20 years we were sitting there and listening to the release of the person that murdered our son. it was just incredulous to me that life has turned this around and there's no -- this is a moral issue and where's the

justice? >> jack? >> one man can make this decision. i mean, the judges -- we had -- judges made the decision in the conviction. and just one man can make the decision of compassionate release? i can't believe there was no review of that? how does he have the authority to do that? >> and, bert, what is your understanding, of, a, the political recourse of any that resides in the united states relative to this decision, and, b, your understanding of scottish law and the ability of one man to do this in the first place? >> i think it's minimal. this is the sad last chapter in our 20-year odyssey. politically there's not much more the families can do, and legally they've shut down the appeals process, so any other information that might be available we'll never get. >> you said the last time that you were here and others have said many times it is obviously facts to back it up, libya has the largest oil reserves in africa. you believe that's why this is happening. >> oh, no question. this is all being driven by big business, by oil. the clinton administration tried

to start it, open up relations. the bush 43, and now finally it overrides morality. >> senator lautenberg here condemning this, the secretary of state condemning this. your response to the condemnation of american politics as you watch this happen. >> well, i mean, i appreciate mrs. hillary clinton's efforts but, you know, it's too little, too late. i think everybody got a little sidetracked on this. i mean, i think that people did not realize that mccaskill was actually going to do this. i think we all kept saying that's not going to happen. he's not going to let this guy go. >> sure. >> i mean, so he's got prostate cancer. jack had prostate cancer, you know, ten years ago. so, i mean, we just were blind-sided. that this was going to happen. >> jack, if you could, just to understand how outrageous this

is, and i have the same question for you, bert, but, again, tell us who your son was and where your son was going when this man blew up this aircraft. >> j.p. was a junior at columbia university spending a semester abroad on the syracuse program. so, he was one of the 35 syracuse -- >> got a phone call working in. poorly timed. >> j.t. was on his way home. fortunately for his 21st birthday which was november 24th, the family had gone to visit him in london. >> and your brother? >> he was on a business trip. he wasn't supposed to be on a flight. >> what do you mean? >> his company -- he was on the 12:00 flight. his company asked him to stay for one more meeting. so, he was lucky, there was space available so he could get on a flight and be involved. to answer your other question, it hit me this morning driving in. listening to this was the most sur vale experience. 20 years later i guess our loved ones are guilty for being on the flight and the families are guilty for trying to pressure

our governments to do what's right. why do i say this? we had to force our government for an independent investigation, to force them to pass the security act of 1999, force our government to have a trial, force them to take the conviction, then we had to watch the clinton administration try to get passports, bush 43 complimenting gada fi on state-sponsored terrorism and president obama shaking his hand and now we're talking about compassionate release. the only thing i can assume 20 years later, we're guilty. >> dawna friesen at the prison with a statement from the white house. hi, dawna. >> reporter: hi, there. yes. we're just waiting here, actually. media helicopters are hovering up above the prison because it's believed that a police vehicle has driven in a short time ago, that it's here to escort al megrahi from this prison here in scotland to the airport where it's understood that a private jet is waiting to fly him back home to libya to die. now, within minutes of this

announcement being made by the scottish justice minister, there was a statement issued by the white house, and it said, "the united states deeply regrets the decision by the scottish executive to release abdel baset al megrahi." as we have expressed repeatedly to officials of the government of the united kingdom and to scottish authorities we continue to believe that megrahi should serve out his sentence in scotland. the scottish secretary was under considering pressure from the united states, not just politicians but families of the victims there not to do this. but he decided that, as he said, megrahi now faces a sentence imposed by a higher power that no court can overrule. he is going to die. and he said that the scottish people pride themselves on their sense of humanity, that it is not proper for them to not show compassion to megrahi at this point in his life. so, we're just waiting -- sorry.

go ahead. >> beyond that, dawna, and continessa explained it well, t scottic law says the judge has the option to release any prisoner on compassionate grounds, and i emphasize "the option" to do this. it's still unclear, certainly to me and i know it's unclear to the families that sit to my left and right this morning, why it is, what is it about this particular prisoner that led this particular judge to exercise that option? what is it that, of all the prisoners you could have a compassionate release for who are sick and old in prison, why this man, and why under these circumstances? and do they have any reason or obligation to explain further? >> reporter: yeah. i -- well, i think, you know, the justice secretary was asked a lot of those questions after he made the announcement and, you know, you'd have to ask him directly. but his response to that was essentially there is a judicial process, a law in place here. not all prisoners i have to tell you are suffering terminal

illnesses. probably not that many who are in prison here. but anyone who is suffering a terminal illness who has the standards, the guidelines aren't spelled out especially. but they've been taken to mean three months or less to live, has the possibility of -- the ability to apply for compassionate leave, to be released. and once a prisoner applies for that, it has to be considered. so, that is the judicial process that the justice secretary says he went through. he wisely consulted with the families here in britain, he had a video conference he said with the families of victims in the united states, and this is the decision he came to. now, he was very clear that he knows there will be many people who don't like what he did, who don't agree with him, but it is his decision and he's standing by it. >> the judge said he consulted with families. did he talk to you? >> he hasn't got to my phone yet. >> mom? >> no. he was -- we had a video

conference with him, and we certainly -- >> okay. >> -- made our points well, you know, in his ear to say this is not acceptable. and i want to know how many people in scotland had been released on -- you know, what's the number? what's the number? you know? i mean, i don't think -- i've never even heard of it before. >> and we're looking at the video now, and here's the man responsible for killing your son and your brother, and here's the convoy now just pulling out of this prison. he was to serve a life sentence in this prison. >> that's right. >> and as you pointed out, it was justice that was a long time coming because the bombing happened in 1988 and for years and years the families pushed for justice. and now to see this, it's got to be heartwrenching. >> yes, it is. >> not just for the families of the american victims, but there were families around the world. >> right. >> who lost loved ones in that horrific bombing. and to know the details and to

see him now heading toward, as you point out, the plane from libya with moammar khadafy's son to export him back to his native land. >> it looks like a victory parade. the parade has started. it almost looks like a coronation the is taking place, then he'll get on his plane with gada fi, he'll be treated as a hero, die as a martyr. in the end, if you sum it up, state-sponsored terrorism wins. >> jonathan capehart, the political implications in the context of what mr. ammerman just said. >> one thing we have to keep in mind is this is scottish law at work here and that the united states has neither the authority or jurisdiction over what, you know, government officials in scot land do. and the only thing that the united states can do is what the white house has already done, which is release a statement saying that, you know, it regrets what happened. and, you know, before this decision was made, i think as

dawna friesen reported, you know, the government and the state department was, you know, pulling out all the stops to try to get this -- >> in all due respect, in all due respect, the one thing i've learned in the 20 years of this odyssey is what that what the united states wants they get in their relationship with the united kingdom. and if they use back channels, this would not have happened. the public statements are being made, and this is truly deniability across the line, and we go back to big oil and business. i just respectfully have to disagree. >> libya has the largest oil reserves in africa. libya has the equivalent of 3% of the total reserves of oil in the world. the united kingdom currently getting 40% of its energy from that part of the world. they believe the uk could get that number to 80% of their oil from the gulf of sidrah, which is where these reserves are. 80% by 2015. >> oh, yes. there's a lot of socialization going on, too. i mean, the duke of york, i think, just was -- had a party and invited khadafy's son.

there's a big socialization going on between libya and the uk. >> jack? >> yes. i mean, it's absolutely horrible what's going on, okay, and it comes down to big oil is dominating and justice is not being served. even though mccaskill constantly talks about justice, okay. i can't imagine why that one person could make that decision and make such a wrong decision. >> interpret what you just said, and i'll come right back, jonathan, but interpret what you just said, whether it is explicit or not, implicitly anything that happens here is ultimately a reflection of either passive disinterest by the u.s. government or active endorsement off the record in some fashion. >> oh, absolutely. and it started with the clinton administration. so, it's gone from the clinton administration to bush 43, now the obama administration. >> jonathan? >> well, i'm a little

uncomfortable. you know, with all due respect to the victims' families and also to you, dylan, you know, until -- apparently there's a story in the guardian newspaper about how there are people who are accusing prime minister gordon brown of being the one who's pushing british oil interests with libya. and that's what led to this decision. and i would like to see more reporting on that before we go the extra length to say that this one man was released so that britain could get now 80% of its oil from those reserves. >> here's the statement, in fact -- >> i think what we're looking at is it's hard to identify another reason why this happened. >> but then it gets to my other point, and that's something that the moms there on the panel, i'm sorry, i can't remember your name -- >> kathleen. >> kathleen. you raised a very good point. how many other people have been released due to compassionate release, or has anyone --

application been rejected? that's a key piece of legislation to help understand. >> dawna friesen, are you still with us? is dawna still with us? >> reporter: yes, i am, dylan. >> do you have an answer to jonathan capehart's question, and, for that matter, the rest of us? has there ever been -- >> forgive me. i was just -- >> has there ever been someone who has applied for compassionate release and not gotten that? do we have numbers? >> reporter: i don't know that detail. afraid not. i can tell you probably not that often that someone has a terminal illness in prison. i mean, i don't think it happens every day so, in that sense the compassionate grounds, as the justice secretary said, apply specifically to someone whose life a is about to end, not to just -- you know, the grounds he said, he was specific, are not spelled out, so there was some discretion. but that generally speaking in the past it has always been someone who has three months or less to live. >> a government spokesman polled "the guardian," and here is a direct quote. we have a strong justice system

in scotland and people can be assured that the justice secretary's decisions have been based on the basis of clear evidence and on no other factors. again, watching this convoy. >> my issue with that is if p that was the case, if this was done on the basis of clear evidence, which we would hope most decisions made in a court system are made on the basis of clear evidence, at the very least they could provide to us what that evidence is. >> right. >> does anybody know what the clear evidence was other than the fact that he's going to die or may be terminally ill? beyond being terminally i'll, is there any clear evidence that anybody has that suggests why the decision to exercise -- i understand the option exists. but it's one thing to have the option to do anything and it's another thing to exercise that option in this particular instance on, quote, unquote, clear evidence that is unclear to me at the very least. >> well, i find it fascinating that one man, kenny mccaskill, has the power to make this kind of a decision when before that every single trial and appeal

had five scottish judges listening. >> to make one decision. >> to make a decision regarding the trial, the pan am 103 trial. >> okay. >> that's the thing i don't understand. so, we went from having at least three scottish judges in every -- through the whole trial and also through the appeal and then all of a sudden we're down to one man in the scottish system decides that the guy who -- >> well, they claim there is clear evidence, but it's unclear to me what the evidence was other than the fact he's terminally ill. >> that's right. >> if you listen to his comments, he thanked everybody, to cover himself, the gentleman who made the comments today. he said his hands were tied. but the most insulting comment that was made was when he said the judicial system cannot supersede a maker, and he's going to his maker. my answer to that was, wait a minute, so that means when they bombed pan am flight 103 they're

more important than our god? how dare you say that mercy takes place because now he's going to meet his maker? it made absolutely no sense. and that's what angered me the most in the statement. >> and jonathan capehart, it's not that the rule exists or there's an optional ti for compassionate release but the statement there's clear evidence for compassionate release when, at least as far as we can tell, no one is presenting that evidence to the public. >> i wonder if that evidence is sort of medical evidence showing that, as dawna just pointed out -- >> no, no, no. >> wait a minute. that dawna pointed out that usually this is done when someone has three months or less to live. >> i have no doubt that's true. usually a compassionate release is when someone has three months to live. but that doesn't mean every single person who has three months to live gets released. >> that is correct. i'm just answering your question about what the evidence might be. >> the judge released four pages about what factors went into it, and much of the evidence is

medical evidence that this man has less than three months to live. >> but, again, the reason this conversation exists is because there's a scottish law that says they retain the option to do this. >> right. >> it's one thing to prove out, listen, the reason this is under consideration is because he's sick, right? that's why we're talking about it. but that's not the reason why you exercise the option. the reason you have the option is because he is sick. the reason you exercise the option is because you've decided there's a reason to do it, and that reason, at least for me at this point, remains elusive as it appears to you as well kathleen. >> low temperature. doesn't make any sense. >> when you had the video conference with the judge, did he indicate to you what rationale, beyond the fact he's sick, might warrant his release? >> absolutely not. >> no. he listened to us and was very sympathetic to us. so, we had the feeling that he heard us loud and clear and he was going to make a fair decision.

i think he made a horrible decision, okay, and no one can overrule him. it's amazing. >> so, again, the rhetoric. hillary clinton's statement, white house statement, pick your favorite senator, senator lautenberg obviously very invested in this issue. >> as has senator kennedy. >> as has senator kennedy. >> yes. >> does the rhetoric fall short for you at this point? >> oh, absolutely. the rhetoric mostly is from the executive branch. the senators can only do so much. but the executive branch has control, and it's consistent, democrat or republican, and we're now going to see this man get in the plane and the next pictures you're going to show tonight or tomorrow is this hero's welcome. >> and the equivalent for me would be imagine timothy mcveigh became terminally ill. >> charlie manson. >> terminally ill. hang ong, the evidence says he's going to die, i have to let him -- in other words, i don't see how -- there's a huge

missing piece here and the outrage this country would feel to see the release of one of the oklahoma city bombers, the release of charlie manson, the release of any of the people that we all know have committed the most heinous acts against our society on the most merciless and heartless levels and yet we find ourselves watching the pictures we're watching this morning, which, again, strikes me as political failure, once again, where the government's ability to administer the interests of the country and the integrity of a system of justice continues to be tainted and flawed by interests that are not the people's. >> geopolitical leaders in 20 years from the executive branch have shown no moral backbone. >> jonathan? >> yes. dylan, i just wanted to remind people of what dawna friesen said at the very beginning of her report about 20 minutes or so ago, that there's scottish

tradition -- the scottish take great pride in compassion, particularly compassion for people in prison. and i take a different interpretation of what the judge said in one of the reasons why he let the person -- released the person we're watching heading to the airport, that, you know, there's no higher power than god. and i took that not as mercy but as vengeance, that god is having -- taking his vengeance out on this person because this person is going to die and will meet, you know, his ultimate end. so, i take a different interpretation in all this. and it's in keeping with what dawna has reported as sort of scottish tradition, if you will, and we can't -- let's not confuse another country's traditions and morals and mores with ours. i do agree with you, dylan, that if timothy mcveigh or charlie

manson or any other mass murderer were given a compassionate release, there would be a huge uproar in this country because we just don't have that sort of thing here. >> i just have to tell you that was one of the things i found merciful and kind than american people, and that's why, you know, they can -- they believe in compassionate release. whereas you americans are tough. we would believe in the rule of law. >> how do you think your office would be different, how would you feel differently had he stayed in prison and died in the scottish prison. >> that justice had been served. he didn't have to kill 270 innocent people. and he was sentenced. and the sentence was brought downtime and time again. he had appeal upon appeal.

the trial went on for years. i mean, it was out. it was there forever. the evidence was overwhelming. so this man, deserved to stay in prison and serve out his sentence. that was what was the agreement when it was decided what the verdict would be. >> the missing statistic from our conversation -- and quite honestly shame on me -- >> shame on all of us. >> the statistic is what percentage of those who are eligible for compassionate release are granted compassionate release. and if there is some precedent in scotland where no one in the history of scotland has been granted this release because scottish tradition is once you're terminally ill, that's what they do. but that's not what we're talking about. because if that was what we were talking about, it wouldn't be an

opposing to real the person, it would be a mandate to release the person. >> and i think that would have come out. >> that never came out in the discussion with the judge. >> that statistic. he never said this is going to happen. the inference was it wasn't going to happen. >> okay. >> and all of a sudden we were shocked, absolutely shocked. >> which is why you end up with refusing to indulge the compassionate conversation and go to the energy conversation. it's the only way you can explain it. >> the way you said it, compassion release, i can see white collar crimes, i can see where you didn't take another person's life, but this individual massacred 270 people. we were told by mccaskill and others that he was going to make this decision and take everything into account. what he in essence is saying, you can kill as many as you want in our country, but if you have

a terminal illness, you can go home to your family -- >> if there's economic benefits to the nations we're willing to use that terrorist to our benefit to trade for energy resources. >> that's been going on 15 years. clinton administration tried to open up, bush administration tried to open up, and now it's wide open. >> we're just getting in here there's an algerian lawyer who worked on the lockerbie case. he says this release has done britain a great favor in diplomatic and economic terms. he says it will enhance relations, that britain grohl in the eyes of the arab states. he told bbc, i assure you, it will help british interest. >> the duke of york will invite them to the next party. >> this is an attorney explicitly saying this is a

diplomatic effort or diplomatic victory for great britain relative to libya at the expense of the lives of the people that were on that airplane. >> and i would be remiss if i didn't mention there's a former british ambassador who plays down the benefits to britain and says it removes an irritant but it wasn't a great irritant. i don't think it's going to give us lots of leveling at this stage. >> even worse. it was only a minor irritant but we'll get rid of it anyway. no matter what they say, whether they diminish it and say it's not a big deal or a diplomatic coup, which helps you sleep at night. >> twenty years we've dealt with everything. what's bothering me as we have this conversation is watching this convoy. i'm looking at it and toif bite my tongue because i'm seeing victory. i'm say khadafi beat us and he's most likely laughing.

it's overwhelming to me. this wasn't compassionate, there were political implications. that had to be taken into effect and the people in charge did not -- this is not good for the western world and our country. >> salt in the wound? >> more than salt. this is a dagger. i've done this, kathleen, all, we've had our disagreements. we tried to do what was right in the honor of our loved ones. this is no good. >> you actually feel this is a victory for khadafi? >> interesting you bring up mr. khadafi because megrahi was an intelligence agent working on the staff of mr. khadafi. meetings were held in the government offices when he was dealing with the maker of the timer. >> for the bomb. >> for the bomb. >> and that came out loud and clear during the trial, that he -- it was sanctioned by khadafi, the bombing of pan am

103. >> if you don't mind, give me 30, 40 seconds of the key aspects that came out in the trial relative to khadafi's involvement with this man. >> the key was the guy who was the manufacturer the timer, they have actually tested the timer in libya on a flight. so it wasn't that he was dealing with this individual -- >> he being who? >> megrahi. >> outside of the government administration, he was part of the government administration and he was making the decision for the country of libya. >> al megrahi was operating inside the government at the time he delivered the bomb to the airplane. >> he was a libyan operative, part of the libyan government. >> he never said he was ordered

to do that, so that never came out in the trial that he was ordered to do this by khadafi. >> okay. >> never came out. >> okay. >> because he knew his family was in libya and they would all be missing shortly thereafter. so he did not say anything like that. >> okay. >> so we don't have any proof that it was ordered. but when you looked at the evidence of him meeting with the timer manufacturer in the offices, this was not once or twice. >> it goes to your point, this is the opportunity for khadafi and libya to reconnaissanwelcom wayward son, celebrate their terms, advance their economic interests with great britain, one of the biggest buyers of their oil already, and it is done on the backs of justice, the blood of your loved ones,

your children, your brother. and we find ourselves and you find yourselves and we all find ourselves powerless once again. >> i always reminds me we're irish. i think, the ira should have put an end to this whole thing. i think about it all the time. >> a little stronger. if you were to look, burt, at anything to be done after today, anything that can be done to improve the system that allowed something like this to happen, to better inform americans and the people of the world as to how business is done on this planet, with this just being another terrifying and disheartening example of that? in other words, how do we take the absurdity of a situation

like this and use it to at least improve or attempt to improve the systems that we all are forced to function inside of that quite honestly do not serve the interest of the people. >> i know one thing that can be done, which will never be done, that would be a press conference later this week where secretary of state clinton or president obama got up and said, we said this isn't right. we do not agree with this and we are not going to partake with any business with libya. you will never see that if oil and business is not in this process, that should be an easy statement to make. you will not see that. we're saying great britain benefits by this. believe me american businesses will be all over libya in the next six months. >> dylan, are you calling me? >> i heard you. did you want to get in there. >> i'm sorry. i was trying to have one of my secret conversations. one thing he wanted to say,

let's not forget a few things. this is not to minimize the pain and anguish of the family in the studio or there in lockerbie. let's not forget this man was caught, he was convicted, he was serving his time. he now has terminal prostate cancer and he will die. we know he won't be going to where his 270 victims were after he killed them. >> the issue, let's say you have three months to live, the decision to use someone with three months to live as a diplomatic tool, how it's being described not by me but by the algerian lawyers, british diplomats, duke -- these are not my words. so the issue is not what's going to happen to him or was he put in prison, from my perspective, jonathan, the issue is, is it

appropriate that a convicted criminal, as you just described, be utilized for diplomatic purposes in order to enhance relations between an oil-rich nation and the west? >> you know, it's not -- >> i'm not saying that's the primary motivation, although it could be. what was the quote from the algerian lawyer? >> diplomatic and economic terms, here is the quote, this will enhance relations. britain and scotland will grow in the eyes of the arab states. i assure you it will help british interests. >> i want to say good morning to those who may be just joining us here. it's shortly after 10:00 a.m. eastern time here in new york. you are looking at live pictures of the release of the lockerbie bomber. this, a shock, stunning news, in fact, to the families of those who perished on pan am flight 103, al megrahi being picked up on a private airplane and escorted home to libya by

moammar khadafi's son. there is obvious conversation to be had her about the role of diplomacy in the judge's decision or the efforts to try to cultivate diplomacy in the judge's decision and the message that says, again, to the people of the west as to the value of the lives of their children and their siblings and their parents when it comes to the matter of access to energy resources or diplomatic relations period between two nations. and a clear message being sent by scotland and for that matter by the american government today, lest they come out and say no more business with libya, which they could still do, but they have not yet. the effort being put forth is clearly at the expense, the diminishment of the value, obliteration of the value of the lives of the people who died for the benefit of the industry and diplomatic relations that are associated with this. you can see, contessa, they are just arriving at the airport.

>> they have called off the news choppers, asked them to clear the airspace now. we presume this means very shortly we'll see abdelbeset al megrahi getting on the plane, as you mentioned dylan. the son of moammar khadafi will escort him home. there is a great divide in the united kingdom about whether this was the right decision. here in the united states the outlook is pretty dismal on this one. >> we are joined as well by jack and kathleen flynn. their son was aboard pan am flight 103. we are also joined by burt, whose brother perished on that flight. you mentioned the u.s. option of saying, if you release this prisoner, we will not engage in commerce with libya. >> right. >> have you explored that? in other words, when you asked that question, have you had the chance to ask that question of anybody inside u.s. economic channels? >> this is breaking news. everything here is moving so quickly. most likely -- no. i'll make a phone call to

senator lautenberg or someplace to see if they can explore it. anything we undertaha been a struggle. we've done it in the honor of our loved ones, but it gets tougher and tougher. why are we making these statements? why isn't someone else thinking it? >> your thoughts on the u.s. relative to libya -- in other words, so the u.s. can say it's scottish law, it's them not us, as burt points out there's plenty of leverage in the u.s. political establishment and their failing to act is an endorsement of his release. >> it's an absolute necessity that the president come out very strongly with a message on this release. and i think he has to do it. i don't even think you should send secretary of state clinton. i think it should come from the president of the united states. he should speak very forcefully about this. >> would anything short of

actual action, jack, by the united states of america, relative to libya, be remotely satisfying in a situation like this? >> no. i would hope they would come out strongly against libya and what happened with pan am 103 and not push this aside just because he got a compassionate release. i hope we do not improve our relationship with libya. because the man who ordered the bombing of pan am 103 is still in charge of libya. >> the irony, of course, listen to the algerian attorney, listen to the statement of the british diplomats, the very release is being done to enhance diplomatic relations with libya. >> the man who ordered the bombing. >> here is a statement for the man being released right now. the man who is getting on this plane, after getting a life sentence for pan am 103 bombing for lockerbie scotland in 1988. here is the statement, following today's decision by justice secretary, mr. megrahi's

solicitor mr. tony kelly will hold a press conference in glasg glasgow. the state department, you would like to hear from president obama himself, the state department said they are deeply disappointed by this decision. they think mr. megrahi should have stayed in prison and served out the sentence. >> there's an endorsement when the u.s. does little more than offer rhetoric. >> one thing we've also learned during our 20 year odyssey, the way the government works, the lower level you have someone say something that gives everyone else the opportunity to rule it. it's inappropriate. you hear that from president obama then all of the world hears it. they are trying to keep the president out of it. and he should step forward, even

if it's still in rhetoric, and say he's totally again this and it's immoral. has he to come forward. >> you're looking at the video now. it looks like this is the convoy now that has arrived at the airport. here is the jet that will take this man, who was responsible for the pain, the loss of your son, the loss of your brother, now you see the greeting he's getting from the folks awaiting on the plane. megrahi heading back to his naturive libya. >> a man responsible inside the government, worked for the secret service of moammar khadafi, one of his employees inside the libyan government, who was then convicted in a court of law for perpetrating the time we're all very familiar with, which resulted in the death of your brother and your son. this man serves out his sentence. then when it is at the point of his near death, effectively for diplomatic reasons, they claim

compassionate reasons, right, for diplomatic reasons he's released prior to his death in the effort to improve diplomacy with moammar khadafi who ordered the bombing. >> correct. correct. >> you are now watching live pictures of the man we are just describing boarding a private aircraft owned by the government. >> if you're following it, that was khadafi's son to go down the steps to meet him. he'll hug him. this will be playing on the news stories. welcome back, our hero. it will turn a different way back into libya, he comes back a saint. >> kathleen, how do you feel when you watch these pictures? >> disgusted. this is a moral issue. i mean, you don't let a known terrorist go back in this kind of a parade. >> if you're trying to find him in the picture here, he's the

man in white that just got off of the van. he's not yet on the staircase surrounded by both flight officials in orange and prison officials and medical officials. but he is the man in white. >> so, you know, we're watching someone who orchestrated the bombing -- orchestrated -- did the bombing of pan am flight 103 and killed 270 innocent people. there he goes home to libya, a total hero's welcome. it's immoral. it's reprehensible that in this free world this has happened. >> another example i can use here as i'm watching this, i'm looking back as if this was a presidential transition. i'm thinking of the new presidents coming in, the old president -- i'm looking back at the years he would turn like nixon and put his two fingers up and go off into the sunset. this is sitting here, surreal,

we followed the convoy. this is everything khadafi and the third world wants. >> it becomes cheap theater instead of honest justice. >> big time. >> i hope for our part we're using the theater that has been produced for us to make an effective point, which is the failure of government to serve the interest of justice at the expense of your loved ones and in the interests of diplomatic relations with a state still run by the man where the bombing was discussed. if we do anything realistic here it is that message. senator, i don't know how much you've heard of our conversation but i sure would like to know what you're thinking as you watch the man in white board that airplane. >> it just increases the anger factor, because it's outrageous to see this thing in being, to see him getting on an airplane to meet his wife and five

children and 270 families across this world are still bereft over the loss of their loved ones. i heard her and i know these people because i tried to get some element of justice. to see it eliminated here about this individual. and with all due respect to the justice minister, the fact is he acknowledged that i, alone, am making this decision. i think it's outrageous. as a matter of fact, i find it really insulting to, a, the families. and b, the united states. >> i'd like to read you the statement from an attorney who worked with libya on the lockerbie case, represented libya for a portion of that. and this is his statement today on the release of al megrahi to

the plane you can see in front of you. and i quote, he said, the release has done britain -- this is a libyan lawyer referencing their relationship, libya's relationship with great britain. he says that britain had done a great favor -- this is a quote of him -- in diplomatic and economic terms. i go on to say -- he goes on to say. this will enhance relations. britain and scotland will grow in the eyes of the arab states, he told the bbc. i assure you it will help british interests. >> it's pitiful. it is pathetic that this is what we have to do to grovel in front of these oil-producing countries, this world is in a terrible shape. who the heck cares whether or not it's an enhancement in their eyes. it's an outrageous thing and they ought to be ashamed of

themselves for being proud -- for suggesting pride that this killer is being released. >> senator, burt here. i was asked a question five minutes ago, is there anything we can do and i thought, and your opinion and think about and support, if there is no oil interest in this decision and big business is not in this decision, our president or through the senate should state immediately that the united states will not continue to have any economic interaction with libya at this particular time. >> well, the problem is that at this point, the fault isn't libya, the fault is with the system that's permitting him to go free. the libyans perpetrated, they acknowledged that as a country they did this thing. and that's what caused them to pay some form of reparations. but reparations of the heart and

the soul can never be made. and that's where we're at. it's disgusting to hear an attorney talk about fairness here, about the improvement of relations. if that's what it takes, how many people do we have to feed these rascals before they believe that there's equity in democracy. it's outrageous. >> burt was making the point earlier that the united states still retains the power to influence these decisions. and that to not exercise that power either through diplomatic channels, diplomatic back channels or for that matter economic channels is an implicit endorsement of the scottish decision of the libyan government, which goes to the question is there not an opportunity now for the u.s.

government to indict both scotland and the libyan government for their decision. and particularly by virtue of threatening or, in fact, implementing some form of sanction relative to libya to send a message that america does not believe terrorists, convicted terrorists should be traded at any point in the process for diplomatic reasons? >> listen, when the u.n. treats khadafi with a hero's welcome, it tells you where the world is. and we have to have the guts and the courage to fight against this stuff. and whatever we can do to get some understanding of what took place here. now, look. whatever we can do to bring pressure on libya, i want to do. the fact of the matter is, in

this case, the ministry of justice in scotland did the prong thing. with all of that explanation, it began to sound a bit like rubbish, i must tell you. i was disappointed, it was eloquent, but in the final analysis, it was a terrible decision. how do you at all justify returning this rogue to his family and giving them the comfort of their being while all of these other families still continue to suffer? they will never recover from that loss. >> senator lautenberg, contessa brewer here. we were talking about humidity scotland makes this decision, since 2000 scottish members have considered 30 applications, only seven refused and 23 granted. you're seeing the plane carrying this man who is responsible for so much pain.

270 people died on board that jet high above lockerbie scotland, now we can see the plane getting ready to escort this man back to his native land. >> how long can the president not address this? >> i think the president must express his anger or his frustration with seeing this convicted killer go free. the fact that he's sick doesn't have a darn thing to do with anything. he's sentenced these other -- these families to life sentences while he rejoins his family. the fact that he's sick is too bad, but the fact that he's out of jail is terrible. >> meanwhile i want to reiterate that statistic. they said there's strong evidence for his release because he's terminally ill. i would argue, yes, there may be strong evidence that he is terminally ill, which means a

candidate for consideration. but when they say that, again, more than two out of three times they deny release, more than 66% of the time. >> it's outrageous. >> since 2000, 30 applicants, senator, have applied for the exact same relief structure that this gentleman was just released to moammar khadafi's plane with moammar khadafi's son and sent back to libya, which is the most oil-rich nation in africa. forty% of this oil from this nation, they believe they can get 80% of oil from this nation, they have a lawyer saying this will enhance diplomatic relations. two-thirds of the time when an average criminal in the scottish prison system is found to be terminally ill, two-thirds of the time that person is not released. and yet america stands here, sir, and as yet does not -- and

i recognize this is just happening -- but at what point does america have to condemn the scottish judicial system for effectively being corrupted by diplomatic interests in the direct consent of the system. >> i agree with you. we have to express our anger, our indignation that they would fall prey to this, the fact that you bring up here about the numbers withheld from release just confirms the fact that this decision is relatively arbitrary and that it should be done this way. it is a shame to free people across the world that we could be so gutless and not to say to libya, no, this man killed our people. and he did it at the behest of

the libyan government, and they have to wear that badge of disgrace as long as that place exists. >> thirty applicants for release since 2000, seven were granted release, 23 of the 30 were not granted release. chuck todd joining the conversation from the white house as we continue to monitor, for obvious reason, the airplane there, for al megrahi. at what point does the president have to deal with this, chuck? >> they did behind the scenes express the concerns to the scottish law and british government over this decision. and they also seemed to condemn it publicly. the president does a radio talk show interview today that will be on camera. we'll have our own cameras rolling on it. my guess is knowing michael smerconish, coming from philadelphia, this area, this

neighborhood where a lot of americans were on that flight, he'll ask about it. i guess we would hear from the president in a few hours about this issue. >> i want to correct myself. two-thirds are granted release, one-third are not granted release, two-thirds are granted release. again, the circumstances around this particular release don't change much. >> the point is if you're deciding not to release seven other people, what's this guy -- here is the plane. we're looking at pictures live coming to us from scotland. here is the plane that's going to take back al megrahi to libya. >> look, i'm sure the president -- this is frank. i'm sure that the president will condemn this action. they have to feel the scorn of the united states in scotland over this decision once again as described by the justice minister at his sole decision. it's an outrage. heaven for bid that we are

caving in for commercial needs to releasing prisoners who have committed terrible crimes. that sends a message out to terrorism. look, you won't get hurt too badly even if you do get caught. it's a terrible moment. >> we are watching the airplane rolling on taxi out to the runway. if you look in the distance, you can see the runway, the taxiway has a little bit of a bend there. so it will be a minute or two as the plane makes its way out. you were going to say kathleen? >> senator lautenberg, i think the point we also have to bring up is we -- the united states in this hole kpas subjected themselves to scottish law. we kind of took a back seat. and yet it was an american plane, it was 189 americans, 270 people but 189 americans.

and i just think that we have to learn that lesson. we in america are usually very careful and implicit about how we run our justice and our justice department. and we look very carefully at the evidence and, you know, the -- match the crime, you know, and the sentencing. and i don't think that we really had that feeling of that from the scotts. it was always, okay, we're doing it. i think we, as a government, have to think about the fact that if, in fact, we ever find ourself in a situation like this again, we have to take a more proactive role. we always felt that our government, the families, that

our government was kind of behind us but they really weren't fighting for us. i think we always need to think of a proactive result right now when it involves americans. >> you've got to remember one thing. there is no justification for this release but we did follow a process. the united states government had the endurance to go ahead and fight this case, to get reparations paid to the families. we followed it meticulously, finally got a conviction. i was on the committee for president bush, i was assigned a responsibility in the investigation of pan am flight 103. we were diligent about the search for too find the perpetrators. we did that. we followed the rules all the way. when the rules are bent to give libya license to be part of a

committee that decides whose behaving and who is not behaving at the members of the u.n., it's ourns. the kowtowing to libya and its oil deposits is outrageous. they want to do business, and countries are free to do business with them, but they have to understand that there is a price for dealing with thieves, with rogues like this and we should not encourage it. >> we are now watching, again, if you are just tuning in the live release of the convicted bomber of pan am flight 103. the plane currently taxiing out to the runway. the plane the possession of the libyan government. on board that plane to escort al megrahi to escort him home, the son of moammar khadafi.

senator lautenberg, beyond public repudiation, beyond public condemnation, what tools -- this was not an expected outcome. again, if you talk to these families, you talk to burt, any conventional analyst, they will tell you that this plane being on this runway at this moment with that man on board seconds away from takeoff is not the expected outcome. beyond repudiation, what is available as tools of diplomacy or economic interaction with respect to scotland or libya in response to the release of the man who blew up that airplane, which, again, was not an expected outcome. 30% of the time or 35% of the time they -- >> this is such a significant moment. i do think that we have to be a little careful in what we

propose as punishment to scotland or to the -- for the code of law that the minister referred to. >> you can't see the pick, senator. wheels up on the airplane. >> it's disgusting. >> al megrahi in the air. the next stop for that airplane is in africa, in libya. jack, your thoughts here. >> it's horrible. here is a man who killed 270 people and he's being released to go home to a welcome. and supposedly he's going to die in 90 days. i'm not so sure that's true. but this is absolutely horrible. >> what do you think is the appropriate american response to scotland and/or libya, through diplomatic channels or otherwise? >> i must say that we have to

remember the the care, the energy, the cooperation of the people in scotland. i was in lockerbie and saw how reverently that little town was about the terrible tragic accident -- or tragic act that took place. they collected artifacts that these young people were bringing home. they had a museum there. they guarded every bit of evidence meticulously. they really did a terrific job. >> i totally agree with you. we went to the trial every day, and you could see how heart the scots had worked to get the conviction, the evidence, how to gather the evidence. now for this to happen at this

point in time to the man who put the bomb on the plane is just horrible. >> well, it detracts from the pursuit we had against terrorist action. now it opens, gives free air license to albertsons of terrorists saying, look, we were right. it proves that this man is being returned to his family, almost decorating this scoundrel for his deeds. >> being analyzed already as a diplomatic victory for great britain and lib yachlt we're going to take a break. before we go, final thoughts from you on a shocking day. >> well, as i watch the plane climb in the sky, i kept thinking about, you know, the fact that on that plane is megrahi, the man who bombed our

plane over lockerbie, scotland. and i'm thinking how ironic that i'm sitting here watching him take off in a plane and he's the man who murdered all these innocent people. >> murdered your son. >> murdered our son, j.p. it's just ironic that we're sitting here and he's going home to a hero's welcome. the world is really strange. and i think the bottom line here is that somehow in the twisted scottish law, there was this process where this minister, one minister could make a decision like this. it just is unconscionable. and i think that's probably one of the concerns is that could we have, you know - had we had the trial in the states, would it be different? you have all that kind of fervor about it. i agree with the senator, i think the scottish people have

been wonderful. and i'm -- we can't just take mccaskill and put him out to pasture but the bottom line is this is a horrible, horrible decision. >> thank you very much for spending your morning with us as difficult as it must be and must have been. we will take a brief break. we are back with you here on msnbc right after this. um bill-- why is dick butkus here? i red him to speak. a lot of fortune 500 companies use him. but-- i'm your only employee. we're gonna start using fedex to ship globally-- that means billions of potential customers. we're gonna be huge. good morning! you know business is a lot like football... i just don't understand... i'm sorry dick butkus. (announcer) we understand. you want to grow internationally. fedex express it's what doctors recommend most for headaches. for arthritis pain... in your hands... knees... and back.

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or may become pregnant. you need simple blood tests to check for liver problems. tell your doctor if you are taking other medications, or if you have any muscle pain or weakness. this may be a sign of a rare but serious side effect. i was caught off-guard. but maybe you can learn from my story. have a heart to heart with your doctor... about your risk. and about lipitor. welcome back and good morning to you. the president attempting to exert a different kind of pressure for health care reform. democrats applauding a split vote to push health care reform through. the president appears to be changing his message, redirecting his push towards conservatives, in fact, specifically the religious right, republican radio, nascar, these types of venue. political director chuck todd live at the white house, with

the sense of the current approach, what's the sense here? >> i would be careful to overanalyze what the president did as a new outreach to the right. i understand "the new york times" framed it that way. he had this call not with religious right leaders but religious leaders on the left. it wasn't an outreach to conservative religious leaders. it wouldn't be surprising that in a call with religious leaders he would strike a moral tone, because that is what you would expect. i think we have a sound bite from some of that call yesterday. >> i know there's been a lot of misinformation in this debate. and there's some folks out there frankly bearing false witness. these are all fabrications that have been put out there in order to discourage people from meeting what i consider to be a core ethical and moral obligation and that is that we look out for one another. that i am my brother's keeper and sister's keeper. and in the wealthiest nation on

earth right now we are neglecting to live up to that call. >> so dylan, that is in many ways frankly i think what he's hoping is that some of these religious leaders talk about this from the pulpit because it is older americans, ones that are more likely to be going to church, retirees have more time, they go on sunday morning, they are hearing this misinformation as far as the white house is concerned. that is one of the strategic reasons behind that. today with the calls i think we'll learn two things today that could be new. the president takes calls when he does this radio interview with michael smerconish. i'll ask one thing on bipartisan and the public option. he has a conference call with leader at the democratic national committee today. i think he'll this to directly talk about those two issues.

it looks like grassley wants to be fired from the bipartisan talks. he's doing everything he can to get out of it other than he doesn't want to look like he's quitting. he wants to say oh, no, i got kicked out of the talks. he's doing everything he can to gum up the talks, almost looking for a way to get fired from the talks. hearing the president about that, my guess is the president isn't going to make it -- he's going to force grassley to commit the talks. two, on the public option, if the president will make it clear just how important is -- maybe to describe what the public option is in a little more detail. >> katie paris joins us, communications director for faith and public life. katie, you were the mc for yesterday's call with the president. welcome first off. >> thanks for having me. >> what is your sense of how effective the president was yesterday in conveying his message to the people there. >> i think last night was about the faith committee putting the

focus on health care reform where it belongs. that's real people impacted in our communities by our broken health care system and also by what you and i can do in our communities to take care of this. the president accepted the invitation to come on because he knows political will needs to be built to get this done. religious community, pastors, rabbis are speaking every day to thousands of folks. this is the mainstream-based community. we have republicans and democrats on that call last night both speaking and listening in. 140,000 people participated live in the conference call which breaks any record i've heard of for anything like this? >> did he connect? in other words, do you think the potency of the message in the community you just described will be more talked about, that the messaging will be what the president wants. did he succeed, will he succeed in the next few weeks? will there be evidence of his

success as a result of the call? >> i think so. i think it's significant that the president accepted this invitation from the faith community and also that we had his domestic policy lead adviser on the call to answer questions. i think that they were able to get clear answers, provide some real clarifications. we have questions that are of pressing concern in the religious community. by acknowledging the real moral dimension of this health care debate, he was able to connect with the faith community. this is not new territory for this president. he is a man of faith himself. this is a language he's familiar with. so yes, i think he knows how to connect and that's what he did yesterday. >> chuck, we kind of want to get a little deeper into the politics especially with the gang of six. i want to show you an ad, olympia snowe, republican from maine, among six individuals currently in senate finance dealing with this. take a look at ad targeting her. >> senator olympia snowe has a

leading role in the health care debate negotiating with the liberal democrats. >> there's no harm in talking. >> but what are the democrats talking about? tell senator snow not to safe into the liberals on health care. >> what are the politics here? is this the republican party trying to score a victory versus the democrats or somebody in the republican party who actually wants health care reform? >> well, i'll tell you this. i think olympia snowe judging by comments she made in the "washington post," i think she offered a hint on where she is on this. grassley said to the post he is seeing all this anger at the town halls that convinced him they have got to take a step back, do less on this. olympia snowe said she's also been doing a lot of town halls and she's convinced they have to do health care reform and they have to do more. what does that tell you, dylan? she's going to be at the table. democrats know they probably have her support and she's

negotiating with them in good faith. with grassley, i think he was negotiating in good faith. it was clear he's looking for a way out. he's going to run for re-election in 2010. the conservative base of iowa can be a very, very difficult thing to deal with. he clearly seems politically scared of what happened at the town halls. he's looking for a way out. the third is a republican we never bring up, mike enzy of wyomi wyoming. the white house feels if he cuts a deal he'll stick to the deal. he's a passionate supporter of the co-op idea. if the co-op happens, i think they have got enzi. you're not looking for a lot of republicans with if you're a

democrat. one or two republicans in your back pocket is enough potentially if you have to lose one or two democrats. >> one or two. the big concern is whether government can address the fundamental problem, which is that we spend a lot and don't get enough. so whether it's a co-op or health insurance reform, the public option will go all day, right? the priority is still there. in other words, can government solve the actual problem, which is provide more care and spend less money. >> well, and that's what -- that's the unknown here. that's what congressional budget office, they are going to be the umpire. when the senate finance committee comes with a plan, it's my understanding this gang of six has been working very closely with the congressional budget office because whatever plan they go out, they want to make sure the cbo scores this as a cost saving, not just deficit neutral but cost saving down the road. they won't come up with a plan that in their minds doesn't do that. the question is what triggers

will be in there to revisit things if for some reason these estimates are off. >> right. but if the priority for health care reform is reduced cost and more coverage, effectively better health care for actual patient, if that's the theoretically reason you do this, matt in that "rolling stones" piece he put out, can you provide more health care to more human beings, period, is a direct referendum on the u.s. government's ability to function. >> yeah. i actually think that's how the public will judge this. i go back to something we don't talk about enough. when the president does sign something, it's going to be two or three years before the public sees a change, because it takes that long to implement. whether it's going to be start a public option, you don't start from scratch. social security passed in 1935, the first check was cut four or five years later.

you don't just flip the light switch. >> what is your take in reporting, forms of insurance and those running the risk of protecting private insurers, the influence of the drug companies in the white house and prioritization of the politicians to basically disrespect those interests if those interests are in contradiction to health care. >> i'll tell you this. the reason those guys came to the table early on, insurance industry, pharmaceutical companies, so-called guys that helped kill the attempts by the clintons to do reform in the early '90s, in their minds they saw the writing on the wall, which is something is going to be passed. so either we have a chance to at least be part of the negotiation or we're going to sit on the outside and totally take a beating. so their stance was we don't want to get a totally have to take a beating here.

so that's why i think you're going to see some -- what comes out isn't going to be something that everybody is going to be happy with. there are some that say you're not punishing the insurance industry enough. >> what's punishing, health care for humans, a bizarre concept, i realize. benefiting health insurance companies or drug companies comes directly at the expense of our ability to provide health care for humans. >> correct. that's going to be a problem. >> but if the president gets a bill he believes keeps the insurance company competitive and a business and expands coverage and makes it easier for people to get health care coverage and not kicked off, you know - -- you and i can go all day. enjoy your day, thank you. >> the real issue, fee for service issue, which some republicans are wondering why

isn't that tackle more. fee for service. >> we'll continue our conversation, you continue your day. chuck todd at the white house, do stay with us for the rest of the day on msnbc. we'll carry michael smerconish's radio interview with the president, live this afternoon. andrea mitchell, of course, will be at the helm here. if there's something you want to hear smerconish ask the president, here is your opportunity. questions you may have, send them to msnbc.com. those questions will be loaded for mr. smerconish. the best of them will be asked. here contessa has the balance of the news, including release moments ago of the lockerbie bomber for what may be diplomatic reasons. >> we saw that 57-year-old former libyan intelligence officer convicted and sentenced for the death of 270 people on board lockerbie flight 103. here he is. release freddie his prison sentence boarding his plane,

headed back to his native lib yachlt the cabinet secretary of justice describes it as a compassionate release. it shows from prostate cancer he has only three months to live and allows the release on compassionate grounds. we'll stay on top of it. police want to talk to a reality tv star about the death of his wife. warrant state police think ryan alexander jenkins, the guy here, fled into canada. jenkins and on vh 1 reality show. originally he's from canada. police are calling him a person of interest in the case. they want to talk to him. we're also learning fiore might have had a boyfriend. >> i know at the restaurant i saw her in, she was not with -- i think she was with the boyfriend. i don't know who he was. >> the younger, ex-boyfriend not the ex-husband. >> correct. >> ryan alexander jenkins and jasmine fiore married shortly

after they married in las vegas. half a dozen tornadoes reported one twister damaged three homes and businesses, three people hurt. in minnesota a tornado knocked down hundreds of trees. strong winds tore off parts of a 90-year-old church steeple in minneapolis. no one seriously hurt. meanwhile hurricane bill weakened. now a category three storm. forecasters warn it could pick up strength. large swells towards bermuda and southeastern united states by the weekend. in 2004, the cia turned to private security contractor blackwater to help carry out a secret program to kill top members of al qaeda. according to the "new york times," it cost the cia several million dollars. senior official tells nbc news blackwater was hired, but never became fully operational. it's come under heavy criticism for an alleged role in a 2007

shooting that left 17 civilians dead. hamid karzai is calling the election a success, yet there were 73 new jersey attacks at polling locations, including rockets, suicide and bomb attacks. polling results expected out saturday. the majority of americans, 51 say the war in afghanistan is not worth fighting. that's up six points in just a month. nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel joins us from kabul, afghanistan. set the scene for how elections went today. >> reporter: contessa, a positive development just in the last hour or so. you're seeing both of the major candidates, president hamid karzai and his main rival, abdullah abdullah accepting the process. today was marred by violence, in the east and kabul. low voter turnout.

both karzai and abdullah said it went well enough to be expected, accepted. many people in this country had feared at least one of them would reject the process and that it could cast this country further into turmoil. >> all right. so when we're looking at where things go from here, is the expectation there by the people who would know that the violence continues now that the elections are over? >> the taliban was in a difficult position today. they wanted to intimidate voters and prevent them from going to the polling station but they didn't want to carry out a lot of attacks directly on civilians. the taliban is trying to build its own credibility. for example, here in kabul today there were three bombings but they all took place around 5:30 in the morning before the streets were crowded, before people started heading to the polling station. now unfortunately after nato troops will resume their normal patrol because today u.s. and nato forces were mostly taking a

back seat after this election process is over they will resume their offensive operations going back to their daily patrols, and i think it will be very likely to see more offensives from the taliban particularly focused on nato troops. >> what are you hearing about the u.s. response here? if the election turnout is considered spotty, would that in any way influence u.s. policy in afghanistan? >> the u.s. is certainly going to take guidance from the candidates themselves. so it's karzai and abdullah abdullah are accepting the process and what they are saying tonight both seemed to be that although it was flawed and abdullah said there were voter intimidation, they said the security forces did the best they could and allowed most of the people who wanted to go to go to the polling station. you're definitely going to see the united nations following the lead of the afghanistans and not declaring it a fraud if the main

candidates themselves accept it. >> we'll watch for results of the election. richard engel, thank you very much. "morning meeting" is back after this. get the best mileage. well, do they know this malibu offers an epa estimated 33 mpg highway? they never heard that. which is better than a comparable toyota camry or honda accord? they're stunned. they can't believe it. they need a minute. i had a feeling they would. there's never been more reasons to look at chevy. you weren't always my favorite day. with all the pet hair in the air, i'd spend class preoccupied, bothered by itchy eyes. but now i have new zyrtec® itchy eye drops. it works fast, with just one drop, to relieve my itchy eyes from allergies for up to 12 hours. no other allergy itchy eye drop works faster or longer.

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all right. we wrap up our coverage with an acknowledgement of stunning developments out of scotland this morning where a judge at his discretion chose to release the man convicted for the bombing of pan am flight 103. the plane took off just about an hour ago. the families of the victims obviously greatly distraught by this turn of events. it is being analyzed as a diplomatic victory for libya, great britain, libya holding the largest oil reserves in africa may be open to more commerce with great britain in exchange

for the return of this terrorist. a tragic day for justice if you ask me. an interesting day ahead. the president, most notably at 1:00 on the radio on msnbc. do stick around. carlos watson picks up and the coverage of the president's remarks not only on health care but potentially this lockerbie development this morning still to come. my mother made the best toffee in the world. it's delicious. so now we've turned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom. i never really thought i would make money doing what i love. robert shapiro: we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. with covergirl exact eyelights. mascara with light reflecting metallics and a hint of tint that brightens eye color while defining lashes.

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good morning, everyone. i'm carlos watson. right now on msnbc the families of pan am flight 103 victims express anger and outrage after the only man ever released in the terrorist attack was released from prison. scottish government say it's a compassionate decision but families of victims call it horrendous. dozens of taliban attacks tried to keep voters from the polls in today's presidential election. is there a new strategy on health care.

chances of bipartisan support growing dimmer by the minute, the white house considers a strategy shift. breaking it into two parts to get the president what he wants. massachusetts senator ted kennedy sends a passionate plea for a speedy replacement should his seat become vacant. los angeles mayor villaraigosa, retired u.s. army general, pop culture columnist and live in scotland, richard engel at the heart of it all in afghanistan. right now on msnbc we want to fast forward through the headlines as we do every morning. cia reportedly hired blackwater contractors as would be assassins in 2004. cord to the "new york times," a secret cia program used blackwater for help in monitoring and killing terrorist operatives. the program reportedly cost several million dollars but was ultimately unsuccessful. cash for clunkers may soon run out of gas.

transportation secretary lahood says an announcement may come friday as to when it will end. this after several states claim the government has been too slow to reimburse them. u.s. officials are deeply concerned about three american hikers held in iran. this morning on "today" show the hikers mothers are hopeful for an outcome similar to what happened to the journalists in north korea. >> we know the state department is working on our behalf. we've had outstanding support throughout the country, the united states and the world. we know our children are being looked after. the three americans were picked up by iranian officials after crossing the border while hiking in iraq. as you know on msnbc i welcome a guest co-host to join me this morning. this morning i'm plead for the first time, not the last, to introduce allan jenkins, director of a communications and research advocacy operation with the mission of building national will to expand