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>> willie, i accidentally ate a couple of my girlfriends mexican diet pills thinking they were my allergy meds. >> best kind from mexico, no restrictions. thanks to dylan rattigan for waking up way too early. he won't remember it but he was here. "morning joe" starts right now. this is where the president is a little more like bush. bush had horrible ideas, but you know what, he had that swagger. i'm just going to get it through. suck on it america if you don't like it. they asked dick cheney once, most of the americans are against the iraq war. do you remember what he said? so. in other words. we got elected. you have your opinions, fine.

that's what twitter is for. but i'm going to do what i have to do. that's what osh should do. he should wake up tomorrow and say, jesus told me to pick health care. i'm certain of that. >> welcome to "morning joe." we've got a great show today. willie geist is here, savannah guthrie, jonathan capehart. >> are you wearing pajamas this morning? >> no, i'm not. i'm back to regular wear. >> you know, jonathan. that's exactly what i was saying about barack obama. he owns the senate, he owns the house, push it through. i'm actually -- if i were a democrat and i liked barack obama's ideas of an ever expanding federal government, i would say go after it, man. do after it. >> do you know what i think the problem is? under president bush he did say suck on it america, as bill just

said. you will do this. what we have now is a president who views congress as a co-equal branch of president. you have president obama who says, health care, here are my broad parameters. you go and get the legislation, do it. that doesn't lend itself to go, do it. >> you probably should have 535 secretaries of state, hhs, 535 secretaries of education. you need some leadership. savannah, what's so fascinating

psychology is of this legislative deference. it's very rare we have a sitting u.s. senator elected president. you wonder if he's overall differential to congress. i talked to a democrat saying everyone is ringing their hands saying, maybe the white house should have written the legislation. he was going to get it however he did it. health care was going to hurt. it's a hard thing to do. you can second-guess the legislative strategy but this was coming either way. >> the problem with the president, and they may be right in the end, he's lost about 20 points in his approval rating. he's upside down on domestic policy. now he and his attorney general are weighing in once again on an issue that just absolutely eviscerated a lot of democrats in the spring, and that is the cia. they badly bungled that and now

they are wading back into it. boy, bad timing. really, really bad timing. mika is off. speaking of bad timing, the guy that always has -- his timing always couldn't be worse. >> a hair off. >> always just a hair off. >> the building always blows up two seconds before he's about to -- willie geist with the news. >> time for a look at today's top stories. >> by the way, can we go back to this shot really quickly, guys? that may be the grayest group of people. >> it's good analysts say it brings out your eyes. >> brings out personality. forecast, gray. >> nbc news is confirming president obama will nominate federal reserve chamber ben

bernanke to a second term. >> happy days are here again. >> the president credits bernanke for his leadership during recession saying, quote, he approached it with calm and attention. he helped put the brakes on our economic free fall. mr. bernanke will join the president on martha's vineyard for the announcement this morning. we will have live coverage at 9:00 right here on msnbc. >> that's fascinating, willie, this is a guy six or seven months ago who quietly around washington was doa. no way he would get repointed. >> everybody that comes in says the same thing, cramer, welch, in hindsight this guy is a hero. >> goes to a new life. >> launching -- >> i don't know if interesting is the right word, but i am

trying -- if you mean interested, outraged. >> criminal investigation being launched by the attorney general into the cia's interrogation of terror suspects during the bush administration. it follows the release of a long awaited report detailing the abuse. the move highlights a politically explosive issue for the white house. >> the president has said repeatedly he thinks we should be looking forward, not backward. he does agree with the attorney general anyone who conducted actions that were sanctioned should not be prosecuted. ultimately decisions on who was investigated and who prosecuted are up to the attorney general. >> are you suggesting the president will accept whatever recommendation the attorney general comes up with? >> i'm not just suggesting that. i'm saying the president thinks of who to investigate and who to prosecute is in his hands. >> again, yesterday, joe, the white house saying we want to look forward not backward. this is totally in the hands of

the attorney general. >> this is like the health care president who is trying to have it both ways. he goes to the cia and says what you've done is despicable. david ignatius said it was like a car bomb blew up outside. he said, don't worry about it. we're not going to look back. you did exactly what you were told to do. don't worry about it. go and do your job but we're going to change the culture here. then he said, wait a second, we're going to have the ag's office investigate. this is coupled -- this is just politically horrific news for the white house. i know the left will louvre it, but this is coupled with the announcement yesterday, and it's hard for me to say this with a straight face, that they are going to set up an agency that's going to take care of interrogation of terrorists in the future. guess what, even sleep deprivation is off the table. do you know, i know they will love that in san francisco and santa fe. that's great. i know they will love it on the upper west side.

it's about time. man, that is -- at the cia, they are sitting there scratching their heads saying is this guy serious? sleep deprivation in they do that infraeternities. this show is sleep deprivation. this is staggering and couldn't come at a worse time politically. nancy pelosi's approval ratings went from the 50s down to 34, 35% on this issue. it didn't help barack obama either. he wanted to get it behind him. now this is exploding in the middle of a health care debacle. yikes! >> can i ask you a question. i should know this but i don't. is that legal or sanctioned under the geneva convention? >> yes. every country has used sleep deprivation, my god, for #,000 years. so obviously if you keep somebody up for a week and you do something that starts to real

physical harm, then i'm sure, yes, that would be a violation of the geneva convention. but remember, eric holder -- i'm glad you brought this up. eric holder himself told cnn he didn't think that what we were doing was even under the geneva conventions. that these terrorists that we were picking up were probably not even protected under the geneva conventions. >> because they weren't -- >> prisoners of war, tied to a particular nation. they weren't using uniforms. they were going after specifically civilians. so eric holder in 2002, of course, when everybody was afraid we were going to all be blown up was saying, no, no, i don't even think the geneva convention covers this. seven years later we're safe and going after these people we said we weren't going after prewe'll

talk to david ignatius coming up later in the show. big reaction from this from dick cheney. up to 40% of the population will suffer swine flu symptoms in the coming months. >> this frightening. sending a kid to school like i am. this is frightening. can kill how many? >> can kill as many as 90,000. far more than the seasonal flu ever killed. >> mainly children and young adults. >> around schools. we'll talk about the government's efforts to distribute vaccines with health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius that's coming up later in the show. michael jackson's death has now been ruled a homicide. police official tells associated press the pop star was given a fatal combination of drugs hours before he died. dr. conrad murray, who was jackson's personal physician is already the target of a manslaughter investigation. his attorney calls much of the

case, quote, police theory. >> i don't know michael jackson's family really wants to go there because we're doing to get the record of every drug he ingested. this might make them feel good for a day or do but blame the doctor for a serial drug bifr might not be good for michael jackson's reputation in the long run. >> not if they are hoping to have this legacy tour and basically resurrect the good image he had in death, not essentially if they had litigation. >> i'm not sure fans care. he's bulletproof. here is one to make you angry. scotland's justice member said libya broke the agreement by giving the pan am bomber a hero's welcome. that could have been prevented by not releasing him. although he stands by releasing him on compassionate grounds, he says there's no sensitivity to the family. >> this guy given a hero's

welcome. those of you that believe that we are beyond the danger of september 11th, there are so many people out there who hate us. they hate us why? they hate us because they hate us. and they want to kill us. they celebrate people like this thug that killed, what, 270 people, about 150, 160 americans, college students, blew them out of the sky. and he is given a hero's welcome at home in 2009 because he killed american students. he blew them up at 30,000 feet. for those of you who believe that the end of history is upon us, and that we aren't still hated and we aren't still in danger, just look at these pictures. that's why i find the actions of the white house the last two days inexplicable. >> finally here is a story for you. veteran's affairs department blame ag computer glitch for

mistakenly telling 200 veterans they were suffering from lou gehrig's disease and they are not. >> yeah, let's turn health care to the government. they are more efficient. >> although they are rushing to acknowledge the mistake, many veterans said they have already undergone expensive and unnecessary medical care. to bill karins. good morning. >> good morning, everyone. interest in the tropics not too far away from the eastern seaboard. currently located north of the virgin islands. the next three to four days, this is going to take a path toward the bahamas, off or up the eastern seaboard friday and saturday. this is not a tropical storm yet or even a tropical depression, but this is an area of development. it already looks like it's trying to get its act together. we'll watch that closely. could end friday and saturday's beach plans coming up this weekend. as far as today goes, it's going to be a beautiful summer day.

grab the sunglasses. upper 80s, new england through the great lakes even through the southeast. temperatures are very enjoyable. unfortunately the showers and storms continue in florida. we're going to have a hard time getting the shuttle up once again this evening because of those storms. anyone traveling to the west coast, you're going to be looking just fine today. not too many issues. again, another interesting area in the tropic. >> are you wearing gray as well? >> didn't get the memo. >> i feel like that now. >> you're charcoal. >> i'm darker, though. >> look at that. wow. >> well, we're trying -- we thought you might not be in a chipper mood today so we wanted to -- >> you're cheering me up. the cia stuff, all the gray outfits. we have a great show today. we're going to be talking about that cia report with "washington post's" david ignatius.

you'll want to hear what he has to say. pulitzer prize winning eugene robinson says we can't over look the past. the investigation is necessary. andrea mitchell and pat buchanan will join us. plus an exclusive look at politico's top stories this morning. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. (mom) for just $9, you can get them shoes from names like danskin now and starter. select eyeglass frames are just $9 at walmart - and they have a 12-month guarantee. juniors' tops from op are $9, too. $9. considering what you get, that's a really great price. back to school costs less at walmart. save money. live better. walmart.

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last night miss universe pageant hosted by billy bush and featured a singing performance by heidi montague. there were no survivors. >> come on. billy bush. chief political correspondent mike allen here with the morning playbook. good morning, mike. >> i decided to go with pajama bottoms today because it still

works on "morning joe.." >> are they gray? >> not gray. >> let's talk business. rudy giuliani running? >> making all the signs of running for governor. i got to chat with mayor giuliani and he said he would easily beat governor paterson, considered one of the worst governors at the mom, the more likely race against attorney general andrew cuomo. he seems up for it. 65. seems to overcome his health problems. he's enjoying running around the country making millions of dollars making speeches, charging hundreds of thousands for consult an fees. political supporters would love to have giuliani back. >> do you have any sense how he would stack up against andrew

cuomo? >> he's already building a clear case, new york, the biggest mess short of california, that new york is such a mess, it needs exactly the sort of tough love, the efficiency competence that he was well reputed for when he was running the city. he was saying new york state looks like new york city did when i cleaned it up. >> we know david paterson won't be there. that's one thing we can assure people. >> you're such -- our governor, beloved governor said, this is all about race. not that he's the worst governor in the history of the united states of america. didn't you go by that hotel where you think -- >> i still do, 94th and broadway. >> real classy guy. >> comes wafting out as you walk by. >> that's euro trash.

>> it is. >> let's go back to mike. >> democrats ramping up as they get back from vacation, coming off labor day, getting ready for the health care fight. what are they doing, mike? >> they know they need momentum. they desperately need to recapture some of the excitement of the president's campaign. the democratic national committee and an ally of the white house, health care for america now, which includes labor unions, progressive groups, are staging more than 1,000 events between tomorrow and the time congress comes back right after labor day. there's going to be phone banks, there's doing to be rallies. the idea is to sort of hit or reset for september, to come back and have members excited and see support for the president's plan as they head back to washington after weeks of having the opponents get all the air time. >> they definitely controlled the debate. as you know, savannah guthrie sort of shirking her duties.

she's supposed to be in martha's vineyard. >> she recognized her higher calling was to be on "morning joe" prfr that's right. >> she wanted to ask me what the president was doing there so she knows she's doing her job. what's the reading? >> i usually find out what the president is doing from savannah guthrie. i'm caught in a loop. did come out yesterday and reel off the reading list. of course the president's reading list was long. what else would it be. "the daily beast" discovered there's summer reruns going on. one of the books bill burton mentioned tom free throwman, hot and flat and crowded, read by all viewers. he read it, too, back in september. he said it was on his nightstand and quoted from it. maybe it was so good he wants to read it again.

>> i feel that way about a good book, like valley of the dolls. >> just watched the movie, savannah. it's not an instruction manual. hey, mike, thanks so much. we'll check you out at politico.com. >> i watch "morning joe" reruns. >> enough. coming up in a few minutes, president of council on foreign relations, richard haas. we'll talk to david ignatius about the cia. up next a look at the papers from around the country. imodium multi-symptom relief

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live pictures of the kennedy space center, launch of the shuttle "discovery" scrubbed. welcome back to "morning joe." time for a look at today's top stories. confirming president obama will confirm ben bernanke to a second term, despite objections. the feds often frantic efforts to manage the economic crisis. since the end of may, iran has not expanded its uranium enrichment program at a major nuclear site. while unclear, come in sides with iran's post election

turmoil and international sanctions against iran. the international watchdog agency says it has no comment. as we just mentioned, thunderstorms forced nasa to call off the launch of "discovery." a crew of seven was scheduled to head up to the international space station but unexpected storms scrubbed the liftoff. >> scrubbed. usa, a time for a look at the newspapers. "washington post" talks about the cia report calls oversight of early interrogations poor. the report released yesterday described improvised and inhad you hussein techniques allegedly used by the cia. >> "new york times" investigation is ordered into the cia abuse charges. federal prosecutors named as new details are released. "wall street journal," obama reappoints bernanke as fed chief, signed economic recovery and continuity drives the president's decision. usa today, the flu could in effect half of usa, that's the

swine flu, a report released yesterday by the white house warns upcoming flu season could be severe. >> seattle times, swine flu to hit 50% of u.s. officials estimate the peak of outbreak in october before many are vaccinated. this as secretary of health and human services, kathleen sebelius is on "morning joe." michael jackson allegedly given lethal levels of drugs. the houston doctor gave the rock star a variety of sedatives. seniors spanish of health care reform. many feared change would come at their expense. coming up on "morning joe," richard haas. also, mika's must-read opinion pages mailed in from northeast harbor. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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i believe this information will confirm the value of interrogation of detainees and i'm not alone. if americans do get the chance to learn what our country was spared, it will do more than clarify the urgency and the rightness of enhanced interrogations in the years after 9/11. it may help us to stay focused on dangers that have not gone away, instead of idly debating which political opponents to prosecute and punish, our attention will turn to where it belongs on the continuing threat of terrorist violence and on stopping the men who are planning it. >> vice president dick cheney, a man you're going to be hearing more from i'm sure over the next week or two.

bring in president of council of foreign relations richard haas, author of "war of necessity" a memoir of iraq wars. let me say, i've heard some people talk about your op-ed calling it a war of choice. >> i don't know anybody slightly for or against afghanistan who is comfortable with it. this is going to be difficult at best. it may not work out as best. when president obama talked about it being a war of necessity, it made people uneasy. if you call it that there's unlimited things you're prepared to do to see it through. again, i don't know anybody who can argue, here or anyone else to say if we put in 10, 20, 30,000 more troops for one, two, three years, we can guarantee you results that will justify that sort of human, economic and miller investment.

so that's why i believe the presidenterred. in every step of the way, i believe president obama has got to be wary and aware of what he's doing and what the alternatives were. i thought it was an interesting piece in the sunday "new york times" by baker. exactly, the great society parallel health care, economic recovery, and yet foreign policy involvement. not just afghanistan, which i believe is a potentially costly war of choice. barack could still unravel on his watch, iran, nuclear site, who knows what the north koreans will do. this combination of demanding domestic policy and demanding foreign policy makes for a crowded agenda, which makes you think twice about optional wars. there are things you have to do. >> do you believe there was ever a war of necessity. >> after 9/11, getting rid of the taliban, who exercised a

roll in al qaeda. that was an exercise in defense, a war of necessity. we've gone way beyond that. it's seven or eight years later. we've got a friendly government, not a hostile government. we're doing state bmg, a police, military, society. this is a big ambitious project. at best we're talking years and years and years. >> is it more of a danger of mission with this administration. you've got whether you're talking about health care, how they address problems with the cia, you talk about afghanistan, that doesn't seem to take an assertive stance. they sort of allow the events to shape their policy instead of their policy shaping events. >> not just this administration. henry kissinger said the classic government memo is option three. option one all-out nuclear war. option two, unilateral surrender. you take option three, somewhere in between. you compromise of that's what

we're doing in afghanistan. we're ruling out massive buildup, rule out doing nothing, we do the third option. incremental. it can get you in a little more trouble, a little more. >> who is the strong hand in the white house now? i know there are a lot of people over there that are very good at what they do. i don't see the strong hand in the white house. the james baker iii, clark clifford that goes to the president and says this is what we need to do. >> it's not clear it's there right now. you don't have a lot of people there that have executive branch experience. you're talking about amalgam of domestic security with policy with gold old-fashioned governing issues. it's not clear it's come together this. administration is still young. i'd be surprised if you didn't see changes in personnel or procedures or both. >> let's go to must read op-eds and start with the "washington post." just a great newspaper.

a great editorial for jonathan capehart. >> it is. >> i'm hoping you wrote this one. following the torture trail. still aspects of criminal law in this unfortunate circumstance that gives us pause. for one, conduct and issue appears already to have been referred to the justice department, the bush justice department. and prosecution was declined. there's something unsettling about telling operatives they are off the hook only to have that stance change with the new administration. for another, the report underscores what little appetite the cia had for getting back into the business of ugly interrogation. it had been so burned that it changed the term at one point to human resource exploitation. the agency was clamoring constantly for guidance about what it should and should not do. richard, everybody that i know in the intelligence community says that the cia saw this coming in 2002.

they briefed the senate time and time again. they kept going back to the white house because they knew, all right, we remember being told to do things. then vietnam was offer. the church commission came about. we got pounded for doing what we were ordered to do. it looks like it happened again. >> this has got to be a deja vu today, a sense of been there, done that. every time the cia operates in the gray area, when it's operational people operate there. the context changes, individuals get caught up. >> let me stop you. you said gray area. this is not a gray area when you have cia a little taking direction from the commander in chief, the vice president, the justice department, the senate, the house. these programs that now shock members of congress were programs that congress was briefed on. >> some areas. i say it's the gray area. in other area, what's coming through the memos, cia asking for guidance.

because they didn't want to get caught. you basically have them saying, give us clarity, tell us what we can't do. well, there's areas of interpretation. these are aggressive techniques, various points of view. they knew they were operating -- it's okay. most of the people i know on the operational side are prepared to push things until they know explicitly it's illegal, but they are prepared to operate until they are told to stop. what's happened here is a situation where the rules seem to be changing somewhere and these people feel they are vulnerable. one other thing, again, it's so american. here we are taking a prosecution and criminalization. for what it's worth, the foreign policy guy thinks the real issue should be what works. what have we learned that works. what are we prepared to do as national security matter that says we're prepared to pay a reputational cost in order to do certain techniques because we believe they will save american lives. that to me is a serious national security debate we need to have.

>> this appears to be, though, jonathan capehart, this appears to be payback time. this appears to be recrimination time for democrats now running congress and running the white house. >> it would appear that way. but i look at it from the point of view, as a journalist, first and foremost, also as an american, that i would like to know what happened and why it happened and who authorized what. i'm not going all the way to the point of saying should they be prosecuted. >> we can do that without making these a little, who did what they were told they had to do, we can do that without making them run out and hire lawyers thinking they are going to be sent to jail for being what they were told was good americans. you do agree with me on that. >> sure. >> there is a way to investigate this without saying we're coming after you. we're going to get you. this is a matter of information

gathering. >> savannah, let me ask you a question. of course "the washington post" concerned these a little have already been told, don't worry about it. we're going to move forward. president obama went to langley. he talked to the cia, said don't worry about it. there will be no prosecutions, said that twice. he said what you did was disgusting, david ignatius wrote in the "washington post" the next day it was like a car bomb went off outside the cia building. one thing was clear they could take from this, you are not going to be prosecuted criminally for what you were told to do by your government, now he changes again. what's going on? >> those in good faith executed policies vetted by lawyers time and time again have nothing to worry about. this investigation focuses on the handful of cases which eric holder and others who have looked at it feel there was far exceeded by what was authorized

by these memos. what i find interesting and haven't seen answered anywhere, what was wrong with the first look the department of justice did a few years ago under the bush administration, they looked at these same cases and concluded a prosecution wasn't warranted either because the evidence wasn't there, the witnesses weren't reliable. these were prosecutors that looked at the very same evidence and said they declined to prosecute. what eric holder is doing is saying let's reopen the cases and look again. the other thing, i don't care what they say about how circumscribe the investigation is we're only going to look at these few cases. a prosecutor is going to go where the evidence leads him. >> you remember what lawrence welch did. look at whitewater, you start with land -- >> look at scooter libby. >> these things expand, richard. you've been around long enough

to see these cycles happen time and time again. politically it doesn't help democratic party when they listen to their far left base because most americans are quite comfortable with sleep deprivation, most are quite comfortable with khalid shaikh mohammed. >> this ought to be looked into but not the justice department. to me, more important than the legal issues, this has been looked at, are the national security issues. the question of torture, aggressive interrogation techniques, what you want to call them, are potentially a tool. we face serious threats as a society. sooner or later i'm afraid it's inevitable we're going to be struck again. it may or may not be on a scale worse than 9/11, who knows. then there will be questions, why did this happen? right now this is a moment for us to think as a society what

should we be doing. what is useful, what is not, what crosses the line. we've got to be serious about it. this is taking a legal direction instead of a policy direction and i think we're missing the boat. >> the day after we're struck next time, people will look back like on september 11th, ring their hands and say how did the cia allow this to happen, after we gut the cia and after we drive off our best a little, which i don't care whether you're a republican or democrat, a liberal, a conservative, trust me. the best and the brightest are running out of the cia as quickly as humanly possible this morning. this is a nightmare for the intelligence agency, and i believe it's a nightmare for america's national defense in years to come. richard, stay with us. coming up next, alarming outlooks on the flu season from the white house. really scary numbers especially for those of us who are sending our children back to school in a few weeks. secretary of health and human

services kathleen sebelius will be with us to give us answers. first, willie, news you can't use and freddie ball game with morning sports. we'll be back on "morning joe." i'm racing cross country in this small sidecar,

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(annncer) visit exelonpatch.com for free caregiving resources. i love favre's never say die attitude. he's still in his prime as far as i'm concerned. i want to bring him out to congratulate him on his return to the nfl. brett favre, let's bring him out. this is exciting. >> wow! favre is older than i thought he was. looks terrible. can you believe this, a new york met, who was supposed to contend for the world series, 16.5 games out of first place.

breaks my heart. fred rogin with mets highlights. >> thank you and good morning. phillies appear to be ready for another world series run after a dominating display of power in pitching against the mets. started with a three-run homer in the first. sunday jason wirt, this time ryan howard. up 3-0. howard wasn't done. towering bomb into the upper deck at city field. 21st multi-home run game of his brief four-year career. led 5-2 after three. pitched another solid outing, pitched five and 0 with his new club. won 3-2. what happened to halladay. rays roughed him up for seven years, pena had a go ahead in the fifth. now lost four of his last six starts. football raisins sanchez made his first start. completion for a touchdown. but for the other team, there it is. only get better from there and

sanchez did, connecting with washington for the score. all in all not great but not bad. ravens beat 24-23. classic case of rich getting richer for philip rivers. playing with the best back now signed a six-year contract extension, $32 million guaranteed. finally tattoos, michael beasley showing off ink. look closer, check out the table. there's a couple of bags of marijuana on it. probably not the best angle to take the picture. we found these photos online. miami heat also saw the photos they are sending him to rehab for substance abuse and depression. why do you think they call it dope? that's it for me. we'll talk to you tomorrow. >> i never knew fred took a hard line against drugs. kind of surprises me. >> quickly.

liverpool. >> liverpool. >> started the season. liverpool lost again. last year they lost twice between august and may. that's how long the season is. they lost twice. >> is that the buddhist league. >> english premier. >> coming up next, news you can't use. a rare television appearance, rips his wardrobe. we'll show you when we come back. vo: why spend $5 per person at the drive-thru,

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here we go. >> jonathan capehart. let's hear, what did mika say? >> oh, yes, the "times." >> she sounds so crazy when the voice is disconnected from her. >> it's horrible. >> jonathan, you're a fashion expert. you know everything there is to know. you wore the prada pants. you like her work? >> love the magazine. >> she went on television last night. you don't see her on tv. she went on letterman last night. she's promoting a film, documentary. >> the sunglasses. >> she took them off eventually. she sat down with dave and talked about a range of things,

her reputation, whether she's an ice queen, took exception with maureen dowd's comments. she looked at dave's word robbery. >> i see you have some interesting socks on. >> sure. take a look at those, honey. >> thoere's a designer you shoud look into who cuts his pants really short so you can focus on the socks. >> tom brown is a very well-known, famous, highly regarded men's fashion designer. also designs for brook brothers. >> that is great. >> i can't -- >> you and i were talking about what we google early in the morning. i catch you googling jessica beal. >> i understand it's one of the most popular --

>> the most popular -- >> unless you're jonathan capehart. >> i'm here to warn you that googling jessica beal could be harmful to your family. what do i mean by that? mack fee, the most dangerous to search in cyberspace. if you use her name, put it in the search engine, that's most likely to lead to you spyware, spam, viruses. searching for jessica biel can cause serious damage. the number one most dangerous person to search prfr look at those pictures, it's almost worth it. >> brad pitt, by the way, was last year's most dangerous. she sur plants him. bones a number two.

next year we predict it will be savannah. great lady. >> she is. remember last week we talked about the south african runner who tears up the fields, dusting everybody. afterwards there were some questions about her gender. not by us but officials with the international governing body. they looked into it. >> did you read "the new york times" article this weekend. fascinating. it's not really so easily certainly genetically to figure out whether it's a man or woman you're looking at. >> genetically speaking. >> there are easier ways to figure it out. >> there are ways to figure it out. >> there's a report in the london tell graham that says caster semenya had testosterone before the race at levels three times typical for female racer. that doesn't mean she's a man

just means she has elevated testosterone. just adding that little bit of spice to the story there. >> she had big testosterone. >> what are you going to do? >> it happens. >> i'd say a woman that grew a moustache, it happens. >> it does. >> wasn't that funny. welcome to "morning joe," we're officially off the rails right now. richard haass, very sorry he's here this morning. silent. jonathan capehart imitating mika brzezinski. willie geist, savannah guthrie and me. a lot of stuff going on. by the way, savannah is getting e-mails sort of concerning me. can you read one. >> this is from brian in los angeles. he says, you tell joe to lay off savannah's outfit. she's so hot that if i had a better opinion of myself i would ask her to marry me, drug

addiction and all. >> thank you so much. >> getting my brother to write. >> which explains why somebody is up at 4:00 in the morning. >> that's a drug addiction. >> we'll have something in common, so it's a good place to start. >> that is a good place to start. >> a lot to talk about today. let's begin with willie with the news. >> today's top stories, nbc news confirming president obama will nominate federal reserve chairman ben bernanke to a second terp as expected. in a prepared statement the president credits better than ann for his leadership during the recession. the president said, quote, ben approached a financial system on the verge of collapse with calm and wisdom, bold action and outside the box thinking that helped put the brakes on our economic free fall. mr. bernanke will join the president on martha's vineyard this morning for the announcement. we'll taker that live on msnbc with dylan rattigan at 9:00. meanwhile the justice

department is launching a criminal investigation into the cia's interrogation of terror suspects during the bush administration. it follows the release of a long awaited report detailing the abuse. it highlights a politically explosive issue for the white house. >> the president has said repeatedly he thinks we should be looking forward not backward. he does agree with the attorney general that anyone who conducted actions that had been sanctioned should not be prosecuted. but ultimately the decisions on who is investigated and who is prosecuted are up to the attorney general. >> are you suggesting that the president will accept whatever recommendation the attorney general comes up with? >> i'm not just suggesting that. i'm saying that the president thinks the decision who to investigate and prosecute is in his hands. >> let me ask you, jonathan. you suggested earlier that maybe the white house -- i think we've all agreed that the cia story, not positive politically for the white house. >> horrendous. >> horrendous for the white house. do you think this announcement may have been timed to

overshadow the cia's story. >> i don't know that officially or whether that was their intent. but when a big announcement like this, especially someone like bernanke who everyone thought was on his way out when they came in, as you just said, perhaps setting things up for larry summers to come in. that was the conventional wisdom in washington. now you have this huge announcement, that, you know, now shares the page with the cia interrogation problems. so it could be. i always look to see, you know, what's coming down the road. why are they making this announcement now. >> and with this, the announcement they could have made at any time. >> right. >> willie, you have a guest. >> let's bring in andrea, nbc chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell joins us from washington. good morning, andrea. >> good morning, willie. do you think they may have timed it, just coincidentally. i can tell you one thing for a fact, i know for a fact they briefed us, had a background

briefing at 11:00 yesterday morning on how fbi would take over interrogation from the cia. looking forward-looking to the new procedures hoping that would detract our attention from that eric holder was about to announce, which is they are going to go after perhaps as many as a dozen of these interrogators. this is not a large number given the size of the program but they are going to go after some of those, only the ones they say were the bad actors who went outside the lines of the already very per missive bush administration guidelines. >> andrea, savannah has been asking -- you ask andrea the question. >> hi, andrea. i was just curious, what i haven't seen in any of the reporting the reason why what the department of justice already did, prosecutors looked at the same facts, the same evidence and concluded no prosecution or even preliminary inquiry was warranted. these were careers, not political, as i understand it. why has holder come to a

different conclusion saying there should be this preliminary investigation. >> he's looking at those that went outside the orders, outside the guidelines of both the justice department and white house lawyers. what they released last night, we were here most of the night, thousands of pages showing all the orders that came from the white house and justice department to the cia and back and forth. the bradberry memos. what they are saying is they are going after those who even went beyond those already per missive guidelines, who broke the rules even as they were being articulated by the bush white house. >> i guess so no prosecutor has ever examined these cases. >> exactly. they say they looked more deeply into the inspector general's report and he recommended even more harsh procedures, i understand. these were redacted, blacked out, censored. the former general has left the

agency, says he's disappointed tougher recommendations have not been released. at 12:15 i got an e-mail from cheney, with his statement, released late last night. and dick cheney's resolve is that the activities of the cia in tearing up the policies of the bush add mostly sunny were directly responsible for defeating all efforts of al qaeda to dick cheney is holding firm in his statement to the weekly standard and same statement released to msnbc. >> andrea we've been around the block before not only with the church commission but also this year. barack obama weighed into this controversy. went out to langley, told the a little don't worry. you're not going to be prosecuted. what you did was, in effect, un-american, but we're going to move forward. then he caught a lot of grief

from the left for a lot of decisions, including not releasing some photos. then suddenly he tosses this over to eric holder. i'm having a hard time following the president's logic here where he says let's put it behind us. tells the cia we're going to put it behind us. now once again you have a little that are in the line of fire for criminal prosecution. >> when they looked at the details and looked at some of the more gruesome aspects of this program, they say, they believe they have to -- >> when you say gruesome, what are we talking about gruesome. >> we don't know. pete williams went through all of this and we're told we don't know some of the worst cases that are censored. >> the cases we do know, somebody turned on a drill and made a detainee think they were going to get drilled and somebody fired a gun in an adjoining room. have we heard of anything worse than that right now? >> yes, we have.

>> what? >> threats, we will bring your mother in here, bring your children in here, kill your children, when the children were in custody of the u.s. military. so we will rape your mother in front of you. these are things -- this is not me talking. this is the geneva convention. >> we will rape your mother in front of you. who is suggesting that was said by an interrogator? >> yes, exactly. >> okay. when are we going toting that information released? >> we're not sure we're ever going to get that information released. there are a lot of lawsuits out there. some of the plaintiffs are still claiming amnesty, aclu, complaining what was released still has too many blacked out s.e.c.s. >> this absolutely fascinating. >> it's a mess, no question it's a mess. it's damaging moral at the agency. no question about that. >> i personally believe it's a nightmare moving forward. i know david ignatius has said as much.

we're going to have him on and talk to him about 30 minutes. thanks, andrea, greatly appreciate it. richard, my god. i cannot imagine -- i cannot imagine a series of events that could have been more calculated. if you wanted to damage the cia's moral, if you wanted to gut our intelligence gathering operation, i just can't imagine a series of events that could be more calculated to do that. >> this seems to go in cycles. do you recall when the united states got heavily involved in central america. certain people got called up in front of congress and legal machinery that's happening now. it's not the first time. but each time we pay a price, which is either people don't join, people leave the operation aside or it inhibits those already there from doing what they want to do. my prediction is, though, this will be simply another way,

thinks people will be careful for a while. god for bid future terrorism in the united states and won again more expansive. people are going to want to know why we didn't do more to prevent it. at the risk of repeating myself, i really think putting this in legal channels as opposed to policy channels is something -- we as a society will regret. we need to look at all of our tools. we may reject some of these things, say on the balance they are not worth it. on other things we might say it's ugly but we've got to do it. that ought to be the conversation. that's a grown-up conversation. >> this is not a grown-up conversation because it's so politically charged on both sides, if we had grownups in charge of this operation, they would ask the question that richard haass, president of the cfr asked last hour, a very simple question. a question not about political retribution but a question about protecting this country.

the question is this. what works? what works? that's what other countries do. this is what we've done over the past seven or eight years, what works. not who can we throw in jail, what works. >> compare what we gained from it against what we lose reputationwise. again, that's a serious conversation. we'll have to ask ourselves as a country, is it worth it. that's the conversation we ought to be having, not going after individuals. this to me is a dangerous distraction. >> and politically do we agree, jonathan, this is a dangerous distraction for a white house that wants to get health care reform passed but is in the political fight of their young life. >> you answered your own question. it's a distraction. announcing ben bernanke today might take people's attention away for a little bit, but this is going to be something that's doing to come back and haunt the administration, i would suspect, for the rest of its time in

office. >> savannah guthrie, did you see this coming in were you all warned that we were going to revisit the cia issue in the middle of, well, a health care fight that the president is losing right now? >> i'm wondering what happened here. i think the president made it clear he had no appetite for looking back like this. he deferred to the attorney general. you have to put this in context. this is a time where everyone is talking about department of justice has to become independent again. it was said to be politicized under the bush administration. he said fine, this is your decision attorney general. i wonder was he surprised eric hold erika to this. >> i'm surprised eric hold erika to this conclusion. i really am. sometimes -- the lesson, i guess, is sometimes you have to stare down your own base. >> no exit strategy. >> no exit strategy. all democrats suffered when we saw this in the spring.

nancy pelosi's approval ratings dropped from 52, 53% to 34%. also fascinating the cia's approval ratings went up and dick cheney, who was sitting at 19% when he left office jumped up to 37% according to a gallop poll. higher approval ratings than nancy pelosi. democrats have once again engaged in a dangerous political battle for themselves, but the base loves it. i hope it's worth it for them. richard haass, thank you so much. it was great seeing you. >> thank you, joe. >> the question of the hour, what works? that's what we need to focus on. coming up, preparing for the flu outbreak. will 50% get the swine flu this fall? who are we talking with, secretary of health and human services kathleen sebelius talking about why this season's flu may be so severe. plus "washington post's" david ignatius.

he's going to join us and weigh in. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. >> as a general feel, i think we should be looking forward not backwards. i do worry about this getting so politicized we cannot function effectively and it hampers our ability to carry out critical national security operations. achoo!

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the fact i served in congress, the politicians i cover is a double edged sword. welcome back to "morning joe." let's go to pat buchanan in washington while we wait for kathleen sebelius to come on board and talk about the swine flu. pat, we have been talking this morning about the cia and the series of stories that have broken, the investigation, eric holder, criminal probe that's being launched. savannah has brought up and

actually savannah is correct. this was already looked at by the justice department several years ago and they looked at everything, including these cases that are being brought up again. i just can't believe, to paraphrase colin powell that barack obama is going to overload the circuits with one more controversial item. regardless of how you feel on this issue, pat, isn't this just politically the worst time in the world for a president, whose numbers are dropping, and who is losing the health care battle in public opinion across america, isn't this the worst time for the president to take on the cia again? >> it's dreadful particularly for this president who is perceived as increasingly a man of the left to have been traditionally in the caricature of the right, hostile to the security agencies of the country, to have the justice

department declare war on the central intelligence agency, expose leon panetta, the cia director as someone who can't defend his own troops. attack the guys who did the dirty work to keep us safe for seven years and succeeded. for a liberal president to do this is just to re-enact the worst mistakes of the carter administration and just before it when the democratic congress went after the cia and fbi as though those were the enemies in the cold war against communism and those were the enemies in the effort to prevent people blowing up buildings in the 1960s. this is an act of folly, joe. i don't know why the president of the united states didn't tell holder in the name of the national interest to national security, don't go forward with this. >> pat, i don't -- i really don't understand it. they did this in the spring. as we've been saying, nancy pelosi's poll numbers dropped precipitously when she took on the cia. dick cheney's numbers went up,

gosh, i think from 19% -- that's the number everyone was flog around, i saw gallup polls up in the mid-30s. higher approval ratings than nancy pelosi. politically -- i agree with you, others would disagree, but i agree politically this is not the right thing to do as far as national security goes but just politically. even if you think it's the right thing to do, wouldn't it be better for eric holder to take this up in january and let the president try to pass some form of health care reform first. >> it certainly would, as you mentioned. dick cheney defeated the president of the united states on the guantanamo torture issue the day the two of them went head to head. on the issue of defending the country against hostile attacks like the cole and 9/11, bush and

cheney enjoy high marks and high support. that's one of the weakest cards the president has. politically why would you take on the cia and take on the security agencies who have defended us successfully in i've looked at this stuff, joe. a lot of it was threats. nothing was done in these cases of the amount of information they got was extraordinary. i'll tell you politically the whole conservative movement and a lot of the center are going to say what are you doing. >> again, the timing is what's remarkable to me. in the middle of the health care debate the president has to win. pat, stick around. when we come back we've got secretary of health and human services, kathleen sebelius. she's going to be here talking about the threat posed by swine flu. i've got to tell you as a parent sending my child to school in a few weeks, i'm very nervous about numbers i heard yesterday about how extensive the threat may be. also, "the washington post"

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a shocking white house report saying h1n1 could have half the population this year and as many as 90,000 people could die, more than twice the number killed in a typical flu season. joining us secretary of department of health and human services kathleen sebelius.

secretary sebelius, thanks for being with us this morning. >> good morning, willie, how are you? >> i'm doing well. i'm a little alarmed by the numbers. >> yeah, we are. >> a little nervous. joe has kids. i have little kids that will do to school in a couple of weeks here. i get a sense you would not have released these staggering numbers if you weren't concerned yourself. tell us about the threat. >> the president asked his science and advisory council, top scientists in the world to give him a report. they confirmed what the center for disease control and prevention and our agency thought this is a serious virus, it could affect young adults. it's a union person's virus. that's why we're accelerated the campaign to get a vaccination ready to work with partners at local and state levels at the private sector to think how to get shots in people's arms starting mid october and why we need to take some steps right

now so people think about how to keep a child home if he or she is sick. who is going to be the back-up caregiver, who the priority populations are and get folks ready to move aggressively to be safe and secure from this disease. >> so what are the signs? when do we know it's time to get our kids tamiflu? when do we know swine flu is in effecting our kids instead of the regular run-of-the-mill flu. >> joe, you won't necessarily know the difference. what's happening is this new h1n1 is presenting very similarly to a seasonal flu. so you don't have to have a specific confirmation that this is the flu that your child has. by and large, the vast majority of kids and young people, the symptoms will be the same. they will get sick, have the flu, be sick a couple of days,

24 hours after the fever stops they can go back to school or back to lay group. children with underlying health conditions are at risk. parents with kids with asthma, with any kind of diabetic condition, any kind of neuromuscular condition should talk to doctors now about getting a prescription for tamiflu, which we know is successful, or relenza, the other antiviral that is successful. we need to get people ready to get your kids vaccinated. also keeping kids home when they are sick is probably the best first step to not share this flu with playmates and classmates. >> i have a son who is diabetic. why the concern with diabetics? >> well, we just -- what we saw this spring and summer is that children with underlying health conditions are particularly at risk, that they have an additional vulnerability so that doctors are suggesting that they

really should take extra precautionary steps. most people won't need an antiviral to recover from the flu. they need chicken soup and stay in bed and lots of liquids. but for individuals -- for pregnant women, kids with underlying health conditions, older americans with underlying health conditions of that's where the deaths have occurred by and large so far in the presentation of h1n1. so those are the folks we want to make sure are safe and secure. >> secretary sebelius, it's jonathan capehart. >> hi, jonathan. >> you just mentioned vaccines would be available by mid october. that's also, the report points out, when the flu is supposed to peak. is there anything being done to accelerate getting that vaccine available to people who need it before mid october? >> well, the clinical trials are under way right now. a lot of the trials are about what the effective dose is.

we've asked the manufacturers and we're working with five of them right now. that's good news. we've got a lot of people at work on this. we've asked them to go ahead and fill and finish we've asked so far on the right dosage. that step is being taken. we also asked they accelerate the manufacturing of iv anti-virals. when people get very sick and end up in the hospital, they need to take antiviral medicine intravenously. we're doing everything we can to push this production line along. we they'd to make sure the vaccine is effective before we roll it into people's arms. >> madam secretary, we at "morning joe" are concerned about your health as you lead this fight throughout the fall, so we ask you to continue your normal routine, wake up, get on the treadmill, watch "morning joe." you can yell and vent. that's good for you, too.

and to go to work. >> that's right. usually i'm out running outside. i can't watch you so effectively. but before i leave and when i come back, i tune in right away. >> all right. very good. i think that will cut the incident rate at least in half. i'm not a doctor but i play one on tv. secretary sebelius, thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> coming up next, we'll talk about the other big stories of the morning. cia under investigation. we've got "the washington post" david ignatius. he really is the expert in this field. we're talking to him next on "morning joe." they say imports always get the best mileage. well, do they know this malibu offers an epa estimated 33 mpg highway? they never heard that. which is better than a comparable toyota camry or honda accord? they're stunned.

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don't be discouraged that we have to acknowledge potentially we've made some mistakes. that's how we learn. but the fact that we are willing to acknowledge them and then move forward, that is precisely why i am proud to be president of the united states and that's why you should be proud to be members of the cia. >> with us now, a man covering the central intelligence agency for 25 years. he's associate editor and columnist for "the washington post," david ignatius. also the author of "the increment." also his take on iraq. first investigations. back in april, david, you wrote

this about the president's speech we just played. slow role time at langley. after release of interrogation memo in the words of one officer hit the agency like a car bomb in the driveway. president obama promised cia officers they won't be prosecuted for carrying out lawful orders. but the people in the firing line don't believe him. they think the memos have opened a new season of investigation and retribution. david, that was in april. here we are in august. those a little saw it. they didn't believe the president. they have been proven right, haven't they? >> they have been proven right. the time the president came out, the people felt it was as much a campaign appearance as anything else. the mood was morefestive than it should have been. the mood was it will be turned over to eric holder and he will

move for investigation. yesterday they are saying this is the least he could have done realistically. he's not a special prosecutor. he's not impaneled a grand jury. there is not a formal criminal investigation. instead there's a criminal review by an experienced prosecutor john durham that will examine whether charges are warranted in material that was sent to justice five years ago in 2004. we should note this same material, these same facts were given to career prosecutors in 2004. they looked and decided no investigation was warranted. they looked at it and said we'll do it again. >> that's exactly what savannah guthrie brought up today. these cia a little have already been on the firing line. the investigation was conducted by careerists, not bush appointees but careerists at the justice department and then they were told we're not going to prosecute. now here we are four or five

years later, the prosecutions start again. what's the impact at the cia? how devastating is this to the moral of the cia, their ability to work and protect this country in the future? >> joe, i think the bad affects on moral have happened. people understood this was coming. careers have been wrecked. people have been spending money on legal bills and struggling to find out what they are going to do with their careers. not just for months but years. my sense talking to people around the agency was, let's move on. there's a new system that's been created. that was the other half of yesterday's announcement which will take responsibility for interrogation away from the cia and really vest it with the fbi and justice department under the wing of the white house. i think most intelligence professionals say enough already. this has been ruinous for the cia. the agency was asked to do this in 2001.

a lot of people were reluctant. they didn't know much about the interrogation. they cobbled together a program taken from air force rescue training, put it out in the field. by 2003 there were unhappy people at the agency going to the inspector general. that produced the report has led to criminal referrals. i think folks are kind of fed up. there's a strain at cia, as i'm sure you know, joe, of people who want to concentrate on the pure intelligence mission. they want to go out and recruit spies, steal documents and give us secrets we need to know. the other stuff, covert action, interrogation, they would be happy to let that go. and now guess what, they are going to let it go because it's going over to the fbi. >> pat buchanan if you talk to a lot of intelligence experts, and if you talk to a lot of people in the cia, they laugh at the prospects of this being moved from the cia over to the fbi. they say the fbi is ill equipped to get the information, to get

the secrets they need. >> i think fundamentally, of course, david knows more about that than i do. i think that's basically correct. let me ask david. david, we've been reading leon panetta engaged in an obscenity laced tirade against a high national security official in the white house, that he has threatened to resign. this is clearly perceived as a defeat for him, as a cia director who did not defend his own people against the department of justice and a victory for holder. what do you know about these reports about panetta and is he about to go? >> pat, i can't tell you with certainty that i know the answer to this, but i'd be very surprised if panetta left. when i talked to him since he became director, he seemed to me to be really enjoying the job. he has tried to stand up for his people. not always successfully but

generally given good marks for trying to do so. people at the agency unhappy with the way congressional committees were briefed on assassination hit team program in a way that blew up. it was immediately leaked from the hill. that's a whole new nightmare for these guys. but i think he's gotten good marks. the problem has been in coordinating national security policy within the white house. there's been a real battle between panetta, head of the cia, and his nominal boss admiral blair, who has the title of director of national intelligence, the new bureaucratic box. blair and panetta have been at loggerhead. then this whole question of whether the white house would lean on holder to prevent additional disclosures in the investigation. yeah, panetta hoped that would happen. it didn't. my feeling is basically the feeling out there is let's move on. i'd be surprised if panetta himself didn't share that. >> savannah guthrie.

>> i wonder going back to what joe asked about, the profanity laced cuss out between pant ark and somebody at the white house, panetta taking the side, don't release this information, let's put this behind us. who would be on the flip side of this. my understanding the white house had no appetite to relitigate this? who is advocating that in the white house? >> you're asking a question that has been bothering me for several months. the president said again and again, i want to look forward not backward. every time the issue came up, he's talked about putting the past behind us, mistakes may have been made. kroi operators were professional, operating under guidance from the justice department. let's not go back and reopen this. this is public servants, let's be faithful to them. nonetheless, when an issue comes up about disclosure, in this case a preliminary review of criminal prosecution, it ends up

going the other way. you can reasonably ask if the president wants to look forward and not backward, why didn't he do more about it. i think that's a fair question to ask. >> pat buchanan, we have got to underline now a growing trend in the white house that's happened on domestic policy. it's happening now with foreign policy. we get foreign policy experts coming in here talking about afghanistan saying the president is being passive, allowing events to shape him instead of him shaping events. health care, we've got progressives coming in here even saying this president needs to step forward and be active. he can't continue to stay back on his heels. now we have the cia when the president says let's look forward, not backward. at the same time he began allows himself to be shaped by events. i've got to say, i can't -- not only can i not remember in my lifetime a president more passive in allowing events to

control himself. historically i can't think of a president that has been as passive as this president, who will not step forward and take a strong stance specifically on an issue. health care, you take care of it. we've got to stay the course in afghanistan, you take care of it. let's look forward. earthquake holder, you take care of it. this is a growing trend. >> one comparison today, obama reminds him of jimmy carter in which he wasn't about policy, he was always about him. for the life of me, joe, i don't understand it. look, i think the national security will be damaged. clearly the president's political standing will be damaged. wimp and a liberal for going after or for playing to his base to go after these folks at the cia and fbi. he doesn't want it done. why in heaven's name he can't pick up the phone and say eric, what is it that you don't

understand? this is national security. i believe it will damage it. the decision has been made. i think it was the right decision in 2004. not to prosecute. get the information out without the names and let's move forward. why he can't do that, lyndon johnson or richard nixon would have had it done in a second. >> and if i'm this president, even if i want this done, i send a message. you can do this but don't do it before i pass health care reform because this is going to cause even more political bleeding and we are at a stage we just can't do that. david, i want to turn the corner. you have a fascinating column this morning in "the washington post." talking about iraq. this is what you say. behind the carnage in baghdad, who is to blame for the carnage? well in today's iraq, that's open. sectarian conspiracy theory. but forensic evidence points to a possible rhinian role.

when press that's a frightening prospect, david. >> it was. it was a chilling interview, joe. i have to tell you. i interviewed this top iraqi intelligence source yesterday. i think i'm the first person he has talked to since he quit in disgust with the government of prime minister maliki. he is telling us as he looks at it -- i don't know anybody that knows this situation bet earn he does. after the loss of 4,000 american soldiers, after upwards of 50,000 had been wounded, what we are left with is a country in which iranian influence is really the strongest political factor -- i will give one little detail in that piece. when prime minister maliki, the head of this government we have been working so hard to support,

travels abroad, travels on an iranian airplane, the tail numbers are iranian. the 13 crew members are iranian. when he was coming to the united states recently, the u.s. said wait a minute. you are not traveling on an iranian plane. i'm told he had to scramble and get another jet. with another crew. that's one small sign of just how deeply imbedded iran is in the future of this country. and it should bother us. we are just standing on the sidelines now. our guys are not in the cities. they are not even in the cities where al qaeda has a strong presence like mosul where it could come out and hurt us. we are, you know, i'm told people are arrested in mosul and that -- bribes of up to $100,000 are given to the security forces. and those guys are left free. so, you know, we are still -- we still got cards to play there. that's one more thing on this administration's agenda. this president has some very tough decisions to make. he would have to, i would say in terms of the discussion we are just having, has to shift his

leadership into a different gear. does he have that gear? can he go into it as he deals with afghanistan, iraq, the range of problem this fall. we will find out. if he has that gear, then i would have confidence for him. >> but the question now for the president is do we continue holding back in iraq and if we hold back in iraq, intelligence source, tells you that iraq becomes a satellite of iran? yet, pat buchanan, another difficult decision for this president to make. >> it is a hellish decision. afghanistan is one where you are going to -- basically the word coming out of afghanistan from general mulen and others over there, if we don't get scores of more americans troops we are in danger of losing this war. and as david says and in iraq, things are not going well. last week they had 100 people killed outside of the -- outside of the foreign ministry and 500 people wounded. and so -- he has about three,

four areas really coming to fruition now where he has to make very hard decisions. >> all right, pat. thanks. david ignatius, we always love talking to you. really appreciate you come. >> joe, great to be on. thank you. >> we are going to be right back with another "washington post" writer. pulitzer prize winner. we are speaking, of course, with our good friend gene robinson. boy, he's got an opinion on the cia investigation. we will talk to him next on "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. i'm racing cross country in this small sidecar,

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♪ if you want it here it is

welcome back to "morning joe." let's go across the country. the jam cam. out west. >> jam cam. coming up for you crichtons awake out west. >> i don't know that it is going to be called -- our viewers calling them creatons. >> st. louis. the great american city. gateway to the west. i like to call it. how about kennedy space center, kennedy. scrubbed the launch. try it again tomorrow. >> the russians are going to take comfort in that. >> here we go again. washington, d.c. look at that. jonathon capehart on loan to us from that beautiful city there. how about the big apple? let's bring it on home. upper west side. home of your host, joe scarborough. >> yeah. mike barnicle. where is barnicle?

has he been arrested? he may have followed one woman too many. >> something is going on. i talked to him yesterday. i said we will see you tomorrow. he said not tomorrow. his cellmate was screaming in the background. >> yelling to get off the phone. >> stop it. >> look, you know -- i bring it down? this conversation. >> the fight with the cellmate. >> what's wrong with you, jonathan? >> you don't have to drag jonathan down. he will just -- >> you know what -- >> "the washington post" editorial writer. >> no. i will say, though, just women of new york city, barnicle is behind bars. today is your day to walk through central park and specifically around the reservoir, you will be fine today. you can take your children out. this is -- seriously sort of a

prague spring in new york city. so we are going to be talking about mike barnicle's detention at a prison near you. also, the cia. a lot to talk about there. frightening new numbers for any parent regarding swine flu, outbreak expected coming this fall. mika is on vacation in the northeast harbor. well, of course she is. so we are going to willie. he has a look at some of today's top stories. look -- that's one of the grayest -- that's like american gothic 2009. it is such a gray scene over there. >> we wear gray on the outside because -- >> because why? >> sunny on the inside. >> match the inside. >> we have another e-mail about is a have an guthrie. >> only read this because there are several of this genre. kathy writes in from georgia. savannah is adorable and intelligent. my son is single, adorable and

intelligent. let's talk. >> interesting. that's the real reason i came on this show. >> yeah. we are the bachelor of cable network. thank you so much. here is willie geist with the news. nbc news is confirm thing morning that president obama will nominate federal reserve chairman ben bernanke to a second term. in a prepared statement the president credits bernanke for his leadership during the recession. president obama says, quote, ben approached the financial system on the verge of collapse with calm and wisdom. with bold action and outside the box thinking it helps us put the brakes on the economic freefall. mr. bernanke will join the president on martha's vineyard this morning for the announcement. we will have live coverage at 9:00 a.m. on msnbc. chairman bernanke. meanwhile the justice department is launching a criminal investigation into the cia's interrogation of terror suspects

during the bush administration. it follows the release of a long-awaited report detailing allegations of abuse and including choking a prisoner, repeatedly. threatening to kill a suspect's children and intimidating another with a handgun in another room. and a power drill. continuing to talk about this morning. meantime, 2009 marks the deadliest year for foreign troops in afghanistan since the overthrow of the taliban in 2001. it comes after another four nato troops were killed by a roadside bomb this morning in the southern part of that country. according to the latest estimates up to half the united states population will suffer swine flu symptoms in the coming months. cass kathleen sebelius told us, a white house panel says the virus could kill as many as 90,000 people. far more than the seasonal flu. earlier we asked health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius for the best way to avoid the swine flu. >> children with underlying health conditions are at risk.

parents with kids with asthma, with any kind of diabetic condition, with any kind of neuro muscular condition, should talk to their doctors mao about getting a prescription for tamiflu which we know is successful or relenza. we need to get people ready to get your kids vaccinated. but also, keeping kids home when they are sick is probably the best first step to not sharing this flu with playmates and classmates. >> michael jackson's death has been ruled a homicide. a police official tells the associated press the pop star was given a fatal combination of drugs just hours before he died. dr. conrad murray, jackson's -- was jackson's personal physician, already the target of a manslaughter investigation. his attorney calls much of the case, quote, police theory. >> ridiculous. we need to talk about that on the radio. >> that's like suing the shotgun

maker in curt cobain's death. >> are we surprised had you on the payroll at $150,000 a month gave you whatever you wants at any moment? >> does the jackson estate really want to go there and talk about all the drugs he used over the years? p savannah guthrie would never make that mistake. valley of the dolls, baby. right here. >> mexico. the last we hear of it. town in new jersey is orchestra working to keep gadhafi from staying there when he visits the u.s. next month. libya is renovating a mansion it owns in inglewood. gadhafi may stay on the property when he speaks at the united nations. gadhafi praised scotland's decision to release a former libyan agent convicted of killing 270 people in the 1988 bombing of pan am flight 103. some of those victims lived in new jersey. let's go to washington, d.c. i want to talk to pat buchanan

about the first news stories regarding ben bernanke. bernanke was considered to be a place holder for larry summers by a lot of people inside washington. six months ago we were hearing the politically bernanke was dead man walking. a -- really a dramatic turnaround here. are you surprised bernanke got the appointment? >> no, i'm not now. i would have been six months ago but the perception is that i don't know if it is the reality that the financial crisis the end of a world scenario we were going to see was prevented because bernanke shoveled all this money into the bank and shoveled all this money into the economy. and, frankly, when the market is 50u7%, and about three, four months, the guy that's perceived to be responsible for it, you don't throw him over the side. >> buchanan, your stocks, mine, my god, they plummeted so much. but now back up -- you are still working here. we are -- one of the positive effects of the crash.

we still get you every morning. pat, you can almost go on vacation now because a lot of those bank stocks you kept holding on to have gone up. >> they have come surging back except for the ones that will never come back, joe. >> yeah. >> gone forever. >> yeah. sorry about gm there, pat. >> that's exactly -- gm and a number of others. i was even in enron. >> were you really? >> my big be. >> you sound like savannah guthrie's parents. made all that money from heaven's gate, ishtar. took all the money. we can't take the movies but we are going to invest in airlines. that's the future. eastern. bellyup. let's bring in associate editor and pulitzer prize winner p. msnbc political analyst, gene robinson. he writes this today.

gene, this morning we have been suggesting politically that this is extraordinarily inconvenient for the president. but you believe that this president and this attorney general had no other choice but launch this criminal investigation. >> you know, i really don't think they have a choice, joe. i wrote several months ago -- you look at the law and you look at what we knew about what happened. and at some point there was going to have to be a reckoning. kuptd just ignore it. now, it is pretty clear that president obama look forward to this investigation about as much

as to his next root canal. you know, not excited about it. he keeps saying -- his line all along has been look forward and not backward. but i don't think that there was really a choice. i think it -- something that -- interesting that we may learn in the -- in the coming weeks and months about the obama/holder relationship p. holder -- eric holder, the attorney general, as you remember, was one of the co-chairs of the obama campaign. since taking office, eric holder has been there before in the justice department. he's -- very serious about his job and its -- i don't want to say independence because it would be fantasy to say that the attorney general was entirely independent from the president. but he -- he's very serious about what he sees his constitutional duty and -- and

not just doing -- it will be interesting to see if any -- any more of that relationship is revealed in the next weeks. >> that's a good point. this morning -- i'm not critical of eric holder because this was assigned eric holder as attorney general. savannah, i think the question that americans may have is why did the president go there in the first place and actually give this assignment to eric holder if the investigations have already taken place? >> i think this is a real question mark here. it is clear that the inspector general's report said take another look at some of these toughest cases and consider prosecution but, gene, my question is what was wrong with the first look? these -- it is not like there is new evidence that we know of. these are old cases. the case files are there. they were examined by career prosecutors. do you have any sense of what changed, why holder decided let's take another look, let's

basically take another bite at the apple here? >> my sense is that -- part of the reason the cases were not pursued in the first place was -- brought questions about what you could actually prove. what's the -- you know, what's the evidence as -- is evidence tainted? are you going to be interviewing -- detainees to try to determine what -- what happened? how exactly are you going to be -- are you going to prove this stuff? >> isn't that still true? >> well, i think that is still true. frankly, i think that -- and, in fact, can say with some certainty that holder really was appalled when he -- when he read through the class classified version of this p and this report and other documents he has seen about -- >> again -- >> cia interrogations.

that he -- that it was -- it was -- it was an insult of what our nation should be doing and this was important and needed to be looked into. >> we are five years beyond the last time this was looked at. five, six years beyond it. is that suggesting that careerists, not bush appointees but careerists had a different version of what america was supposed to look like and moral standing that somehow they were too amoral or too jaded to investigate this further. again -- he is not looking at new evidence. this is, in fact the case is five years colder now than it was when they first looked at it. >> well, that's -- that is true. it is five years older. but what -- one thing i think you do have to take into account is that is the passage of those five years. and the -- the -- the -- not just the atmosphere. not just the political atmosphere is different.

but i -- i think near different. i think that we -- >> i think you are because we feel safer now. we feel safer so we can do what we always do, ask the cia to do things, they do it. we feel safer because what they do and then we beat the hell out of them. this is a time-honored tradition in american politics, isn't it, gene? >> joe, read the report. throughout the inspector general's report the cia is essentially saying, you know, this is going to come back and -- going to come back to bite us. and, you know, there is a point at which an agent says, you know in ten years, we will regret having done what we did. and they knew that this was -- wrong or -- or certainly borderline if not absolutely wrong. and -- and -- i -- i think about all of the thousands of honorable public servants in the cia who were not involved with

this, some of whom were as appalled by the practices as -- as the attorney general apparently. and i wonder what message it sends to them and their morale. >> we have jonathan capehart here. >> you said you know for a fact attorney general holder was appalled but what read in the report. i'm wonder sing he appalled meaning that he's read something new that was illegal that led him to have no choice but to pursue the course of action that they announced yesterday. >> jonathan, i do not. i do not know what specifically it was that was so appalling. you have seen the report and the -- there are -- obviously a lot of redactions in there. we are not meant to have any idea what's those redactions and i don't. but -- there's stuff in there.

and it may be in addition to what we already know. >> i was about to ask. is it new -- >> really affected him. and -- and that he really felt was wrong. >> the question is -- what has he seen that the last justice department official did not see that he finds so offensive and so contrary to american values that -- these people five years ago, six years ago looked at and then concluded the same thing. gene, thanks so much being with us. that's a question we are going to to be looking at as you brought up. >> great to be -- great to be here, joe. jonathan, get back to work. >> gene, i have been working. working on this case. >> yeah, whatever. talking about ties. >> you keep asking. >> i do. i do. coming up, we are getting new numbers in on the housing and

consumer confidence. when you get those numbers in, who do you go to? bernanke? no. summers? no. you go to cnbc's international superstar. she is erin burnett live at the new york stock exchange. the cia is under fire. we will be talking with novelist and member of the association of former intelligence officer joseph finder. when we come back, congresswoman marcia blackburn of tennessee. she says the best thing to do with the house health care bill is to run it through a shredder. i'm racing cross country in this small sidecar, but i've still got room for the internet. with my new netbook from at&t. with its built-in 3g network, it's fast and small, so it goes places other laptops can't. i'm bill kurtis, and wherever i go, i've got plenty of room for the internet. and the nation's fastest 3g network.

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without a public option you

lost the real way to get costs down. other ways to reform the insurance industry, whatever that means. holding costs down without a public option, you are not going to do it. so it simply becomes a question of what are we doing here? if we are not going to control costs, we are wasting a once -- once in every 30-year opportunity. >> congressman anthony weiner yesterday, need for public option. with us now republican representative from tennessee, congresswoman marsha blackburn. she is a member of the energy and commerce committee currently overseeing the 1,000-page health care bill. congresswoman, thank for being with us. you suggest the best thing to do with this bill is put it through a shredder. what would you replace it with? >> i would come back and replace it with some of the good options that are out there. we have the shattuck bill, ryan bill. there are plenty of ways we can address the insurance market reforms. joe, as you know, previously the house has passed many of those

in '06, bipartisan support, send it to the senate. senate didn't get zap we are at a point we need to punch the reset button and declare a do-over and take out a clean sheet of paper and go to. >> it would you support a plan that would not allow insurance companies to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions? >> yes. i think that -- this is one of the things that we have in the shattuck proposal which is one of the alternatives that i do support. it is linked on my website. but there has to be a way for those that have pre-existing and chronic conditions to get affordable private health insurance. and by the same token, there has to be a requirement that when someone has a policy in good standing and they do get sick and they do need to exercise the benefits of that policy, that the insurance company does not drop them. and so there are market reforms that do need our attention. i think everybody agree was

that. they all agree cost is too high and we need to look at some asset restricts or the -- the restrictions that are there for individuals being able to actually get to health care. we also need to look at affordability with women. i talked to women around the country, i think that's the number one issue that is of concern to them. and then -- liability. definitely need to address liability. >> pat buchanan, it seems to me if a bill does get passed, one thing that both parties can agree on are insurance reforms. consumer protections. do you agree? >> i think so. i think allowing more competition among the insurance companies within states is something an awful lot of people would support. i agree with the congresswoman. i think that they really -- maybe barack obama and, you know, the blue dogs and progressives are going to fight this out and come to a conclusion. i think what would be best for the country given the economic environment and the exploding

deficits and things, would be to start over and get these reforms we can all agree on and get those done. i don't know that -- ask the congresswoman, do you think they are going to get through a bill that has a government option in it? >> pat, i don't think that they will. i dar there is -- doing the town halls i have done 11 town halls and spoken to civic clubs, chambers of commerce. and there is not the support for that. of course, in tennessee, we had the '94 test case for public option health care or hillary care. and we have seen it go from a $2 billion to $8 billion program. our governor has worked diligently to get the costs down. quoted in "the new york times" as saying obama would be the mother of all unfunded mandates. and so we know that -- public option in competition with private insurance, drives the cost of health care up and drives the cost of insurance up.

and it makes it very difficult to have access to the type of health care our constituents need. we know what happens with this. >> congresswoman, let me ask you about the charges that have been going on out there. first of all, we will start with the death panel charge. i have been critical of attacks on both extremes. you don't see anything in this bill that would lead the federal government to unplugging grandma in her final years of life, do you? >> what's in the bill is in division b. title 2. the information, the instruction, if you will, which is a mandate to change the medicare health book to -- guide book to allow for end of life planning, advanced planning, that entire section. and what we have here is the fact that that door is opened.

it is a requirement for our medicare enrollees -- >> it is counseling, right? it is not -- but it is not a death panel. >> counsel. >> it is counseling. saying maybe you should get a living will. how do you go from that, not you, but how do certain leaders go from that to saying death panels will be impanelled and granny will have the plug pulled? >> what happens with this, i believe -- this is just my opinion. when you have that type mandate -- it is a shall. you have to do it. that has to happen and that instruction has to happen. and while living wills are something that we should have, my husband and i have a living will, but it should not be a mandate of the federal government on individuals who have prepaid their access to medicare. this money has been coming out of thai paychecks. >> right. but going back to the question i

have to ask you -- >> the counsel. >> i have to ask you again, though, does that equal a death panel? i don't think it comes close. i think it is counseling. a death panel would be somebody saying joe, we are just not going to give you the operation you need, good-bye. because you drink too many lattes with whip cream on it, you deserve to die. that's a death panel. but -- having a mandate even for counseling for end of life planning, that -- i just don't see how you get from there to a death panel. are you saying that it is the same as a death panel. >> what you have happening -- there again, this is in my opinion. and from talking with our constituents and reading the bill which i have done, when you have that mandate to put instruction for end-of-life planning in the medicare handbook and you are required to go and visit with the counselor and then you leave that opening

for what is going to actually happen through that counseling process, how decisions are going to be made, and you insert the uncertainty of that federal government into that situation with those individuals. and what most individuals will tell you they would rather do is say oh, we need to make these plans. i talked with someone yesterday that works with nursing homes and individuals that are going into those long-term health care facilities and skilled nursing facilities. nursing homes. and they told me that in the education process, which is important, that's an important component, and in the education process, they go through, they find that 60% of our seniors make those necessary -- make those necessary plans. but to have the heavy long arm

of the federal government reach into something that is a very, very personal, personal decision is to just can distasteful to me and i think it is distasteful to our nation's seniors. >> can i ask you the clarify something? jonathan capehart. so is -- is this rule saying -- mandating that seniors are just -- anyone, does it mandate you have to go in for end-of-life counseling? or is it that if you go in for an end-of-life counseling those expenses would be reimbursed? why -- and why shouldn't that happen? >> it mandates -- it mandates a change in the medicare and you handbook. it mandates that you go in for this advanced planning or end-of-life counseling. and it is the fact that it is a mandate and it is placed on our

seniors, our seniors have prepaid their medicare and this is something that is a reach too far for our seniors and they do find it distasteful. >> all right, congresswoman. thanks for being on. we will come con this when you come to new york. let us know and we would love to get you on the set have absolutely. thank you. >> even if there is federal mandate, willie, i want you to play counselor, death panel counselor for me. suggest that i, like, just don't get a procedure that would save my life. we are going reply this out. even if there is this mandate which is questionable, a mandate the republicans from georgia proposed this. i'm coming in your office and -- okay, i'm mandated to come in here, end-of-life. >> it is not going to work out. we are going to have to let you go. you are a death man. >> thanks for your counseling. go to hell. coming up next, cnbc's

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what's going on today? >> everybody is going the talk about how ben bernanke is getting reapointed. the president will be speaking from, i believe, a pool on martha's vineyard to talk to bus that at 9:00 a.m. on other big headline at 9:00 a. in, latest housing, the case chiller. keep in mind it is from june but will be the latest of housing prices and how much they are dropping. and those are the biggest stories of the day. then you have a lot of earnings including staples which came out with a drop of about 40%. still a lot of consumer -- we have issues here. all right. thanks very much. that's it. bye. >> how are things going? >> i don't know. you know, i got my big issue here on the side getting his hairspray put on. >> you call him a big issue. i call him my man crush. one final question. five seconds. answer. erin burnett, international superstar, what makes you so

great? >> you, joe. you make me a superstar. >> sounds great to me. erin, thank you so much. >> bye. >> we will be right back. we mandate that! most for headaches. for arthritis pain... in your hands... knees... and back. for little bodies with fevers.. and big bodies on high blood pressure medicine. tylenol works with your body... in a way other pain relievers don't... so you feel better... knowing doctors recommend tylenol... more than any other brand of pain reliever.

the president said again and again, i want to look forward, not backward. every time this issue has come up, he has talked about putting the past behind us and mistakes may have been made but the cia officers were professional. nonetheless, every time an issue comes up about disclosure of memos or, in this case, about the beginning of preliminary review of criminal prosecution, it ends up going the other way. so you can reasonably ask if the president wants to look forward and not backward, why doesn't he do more about it? i think that's a fair question to ask this white house. >> david ignatius earlier talking about the cia investigation being launched by the attorney general's office. pat buchanan, i'm fascinated by marsha blackburn, congresswoman

from tennessee. i asked her several times about the death panel. i said there's not a death panel language in there. the -- it is not mandated. but she did not back off of it. we have been talking around here and -- we don't think there is a mandate in there. i think that's a matter of public record. are we mistaken? >> no. there -- >> there's not a mandate in there and no language that leads to a death pan zblel no. there is no death panel mandate in there at all. there is no euthanasia mandated, no mercy killing mandated in there. >> pat, there is not -- even the end-of-life counseling if i'm not mick taken, not mandated. >> no. i do think one visit, the physician counselors are paid to make a visit once every five years to medicare patients and i believe if someone takes a turn for the worse, in other words their cancer is spreading, they

come in and give counsel and advice to what is going to -- to people what their options are. the fear of marsha blackburn and others is that if you come in and tell some woman, say, who has no children and who is alone and you say to your -- your cancer has spread and it is in the brain and we are not going to be able to give thank you kind of treatment we gave, say, senator kennedy, we have wonderful treatment, chemotherapy and surgery at duke. she says what am i going to do? and then you say, what's your options. and you are to give her the resources. among these resources are these -- if you are in oregon, these death groups. the point is here that it puts enormous moral pressure on people who basically are desperate for care and want to live longer and puts moral pressure on them to turn and move in another direction toward end of life. >> pat, you explained how people are -- on the right are getting from where we are to that point. but you don't see that kind of a

nexus, do you? >> no, i don't. i wrote a column -- you know, we all love ronald reagan. and ronald reagan for ten years had alzheimer's. he failed to -- after a while couldn't recognize his new friends or old friends or even his family, as i understand it. he was kept alive for ten years. i looked at the statistics. 2050 we will have 33 million people over 80 years of age. suppose 2 million have terminal alzheimer's. what's going to happen if our objective there -- health care costs are exploding. and there -- they are just out of control. are they going to keep those folks alive for ten years the way they did ronald reagan? because in europe, joe, they are euthanizing people, assisted suicide clinics. people are pushed. people who are alone have been put to death in places like holland and belgium, switzerland. this is a terrible fear that's out there.

it is because of that fear, i think, the democrats said we are not even going to debate this. that 1233 marsha blackburn was talking about is, as i understand it, is dead in senate pan zblel it is already dead in the senate panel. what you bring up is, in fact, a question that america is going to have to face. >> exactly. >> in the coming years. it is a question -- we have a demographic time bomb ticking. it is the reality. people like jonathan capehart are going to have to make life and death decisions on people like and you me, buchanan. but my point is this. we are not there now. this bill doesn't take us there. it is irresponsible to say we are there. there are enough things to attack on this health care bill without making things up. >> right. the death panels are not in the bill. you are exactly right. what the bill clearly points to, what people are saying is that -- obama himself says look,

health care costs are completely out of control. most of the costs -- last the last six months of life. we are going to control costs. and you are there sitting there and you are -- you have been paying all your life into medicare. you are saying wait a minute. does that not point to rationed care? what's rationed care other than to say to folks you are not getting any more. you are not get thing. we can't afford this and where do they point them? >> let's be perfectly clear here, though. that is an issue we will have to confront as a nation in the coming years. that is not -- that's not an issue that's being confronted now in this health care bill. i agree with you, pat. there's nothing in there that mandates anything like a death panel. with us, let's bring in the member of the association former intelligence officers, joe fender. the author of "vanished." a great book.

i'm still breathless. joe, you know this. the -- intelligence agencies inside and out. talk about what's happening in washington, d.c. and what impact that's going to have on the cia. >> okay. all right. there's something i think that's important that has not come out yet. david asked a really good question -- >> david ignatius yes. david ignatius. terrific. asked a really smart question. what is the white house doing in all of this? are they saying hands off? didn't this sort of contrary to what obama wants to do which is to move forward? here's the facts. for months, the justice department has been negotiating with the cia about whether to release this interrogation report. which just came out. right? last night. the white house has been involved in negotiations, the white house council, greg craig, he has been pushing for the release of this. this is a story we were talking about before when panetta was so upset. the white house pushing for the

release. which is really kind of -- insane. all right. it is damaging. >> what -- >> and, joe, it is so fascinating. panetta felt betrayed by his democratic colleagues in the white house when they -- when they -- leaked findings on this program being developed. and now panetta is enraged at the white house. what's happening with will he only panetta? looks like he is at war with his own people. >> he is -- he's, unfortunately, at war within the cia. he's become widely disliked because of the way he handles this whole mess earlier in the summer when he said the cia had been misleading and then said the cia hadn't been misleading. but, you know, joe, you mentioned earlier -- you made a very good point which is that this whole airing of the grievances, the -- eric holder's attempt to get an -- excuse me, prosecutor involved in figuring out whether we should prosecute cases. this whole thing is damaging to the cia morale. i think even more serious, the

cia didn't want to do this in the first place. interrogation stuff. they did not want to get involved. they knew that times were going to change. they knew political -- politics were going to change on this. and that in five years, ten years from now, america is going to say, what were we doing? >> that's exactly what "the washington post" editorialized about this morning. that they were -- they were scared even early on saying -- we know how this is. we are getting set up for a fall. >> right. they got signoff on everything. all right. they didn't want to do it. now what's going to happen as a result of this -- of this basic -- show trial in a sense. political fear. what's going to happen? they are not going to go after cheney or bush or any of the cia directors, they will not go after anything that was legally determined by the justice department and that includes this whole interrogation program, torture program. they are going to be going after -- you know, half a dozen

really bad apples. that's what we did with abu ghraib. they are going after the little guy. >> jonathan capehart. >> joe, i have a question for you. you said the white house has been negotiating with the cia to -- i they wanted to get this stuff out. what's mistystifying to me is what's the rationale behind that. put thing stuff out could upend what he wants to do with health care. upend any of their legislative thinking of what he wants to do by -- basically -- what's the rationale? >> you know what? politically damaging. it is a huge mistake. a lot -- and what's the rationale -- >> why? >> okay. i think the white house is basically trying to send a signal to the world that we don't do this anymore. you know what? they are not going to be going after anyone who authorized interrogation. all of these people who think great, let all the -- let the light in. let's spread this information. congress had this inspect tore

general's report for several years already. and these cases have been litigated and as your -- david said. career prosecutors. not by political hacks. and the reason, the reason that these cases were not recommended for criminals was simply because they didn't have the evidence and couldn't prove intent to commit a crime. >> that, of course, was years ago. they -- >> years ago. >> they don't have any more evidence now. >> hanging the cia out to dry for it. >> no doubt. joseph, thank you so much. we always appreciate your being with us. your book is "vanished." when we come back, we are waiting for president obama to announce the reappointment of ben bernanke as fed chief. it is going to happen live from martha's vineyard in just a few minutes from now. keep it here on "morning joe." capturing the beauty of nature.

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coming up next here, what, if anything, we learned today. and the "morning joe" moment. we will be right back. pollen.

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achieve. that is why i'm reappointing him to another term as chairman of the federal reserve. approach ad financial system on the verge of collapse with calm and wisdom. with bold action and out-of-box thinking that helped put the breks on our economic freefall. and almost none of the decisions that he or any of us made have been easy. the actions we have taken to stabilize our financial system

to repair our credit markets and restructure our auto industry and pass a recovery package have all been steps of necessity. not choice. they face plenty of critics and some of whom argued we should stay the course or do nothing at all. but taken together, this bold persistent experimentation brought our economy back from the brink. there are steps that are working. our -- our involve esolvey plan. it is continuing to save and create jobs that otherwise would have been lost. our auto industry is showing signs of life. business investment is showing signs of stabilizing. our housing market and credit markets have been saved from collapse. of course, as i said before, we are a long way away from completely a healthy financial systems and full economic

recovery. i will not let up until those americans who are looking for jobs can find them and until qualified businesses, large and small, will need capital to grow and can find loans at rate they can afford. and until all responsible mortgage holders can stay in their homes. that's why we need ben bernanke to continue the work he's doing. and that's why i have said that we cannot go back to an economy based on overleveraged banks, inflated profits, maxed out credit cards. or even as we have taken steps to rescue our financial system and our economy, we must now work to rebuild a new foundation for growth and prosperity. we have to build an economy that works for every american and one that leads the world in a nation and in investments and in experts. exports. part of that foundation has to be a financial regulatory system that ensures we never face a crisis like this again. we have already seen how lax enforcement and weak regulation can lead to