a pew and enormous pain for everyone else. even though there is some resistance on wall street for those that would prefer to keep things the way they are, we will pass the reforms necessary to protect consumers and investors and the entire financial system. and we will continue to maintain a strong and independent federal reserve. we will also keep working towards the reform of a health insurance system whose cost and discriminatory practices are bankrupting our families, businesses and government. we will continue to build a clean energy economy that creates the jobs and industry of the future within our boarders and give our children and our workers the skills and training they need to compete for these jobs in the 21st century. and much like the decisions we made so far, the steps we take to build this new foundation will not be easy. change never is. ben and i both know, it comes with the debate and disagreement and resistance from those that prefer the status quo. and that's all right. because that's how democracy

supposed to work. but no matter how difficult change is, we will pursue it relentlessly because it is absolutely necessary to lift this country up and create an economy that leads to good jobs, broad growth, a future our children can count on. that's what we are here to do. and that's what we will continue to do in the months ahead. so i want to congratulate ben on the work that he's done so far. wish him continued success in the hard work he has before him. thank you so much. >> thank you, mr. president. i would like to express my gratitude to president obama for the confidence he has shown in me with this nomination and unwavering support for a strong federal reserve. it had been a privilege for me to serve with the extraordinary colleagues louout the federal reserve system. and they have demonstrated remarkable resourcefulness and dedication and stamina under

trying conditions. through the long nights and weekends and the time away from their families, they have never lost sight of the critical importance of the work of the fed, economic well-being of all americans. i am deeply grateful for their efforts. i especially wlant to thank my own family, my wife an a our children, joel, alyssa. without their support and sacrifice, i could not undertake this task. the federal reserve like other economic policymakers has been challenged by the unprecedented events of the past few years. we have been bold or deliberate as circumstances demanded. but our objective remains constant. to restore a more stable financial and economic environment and in which opportunity can again flourish and in which americans p americans' hard work and creativity can receive their proper rewards. mr. president, i commit today to you and to the american people that if confirmed by the senate,

i will work to the utmost of my abilities with my colleagues at the federal reserve and alongside the congress and the administration to help provide a solid foundation for growth and prosperity in an environment of price stability. thank you, sir. >> thank you. great job. >> thank you. >> mr. president -- >> the president of the united states. barack obama reappointing for a second term the chairman of the federal reserve ben bernanke who played a central role in attempting to stabilize an economy, destabilized by national policy of expanded credit that rippled through this country over the past decade. bernanke among small group of folks, along with tim geithner, treasury secretary, larry summers, chief economic adviser to president, of course, hank paulson prior to tim geithner as treasury secretary under george w. bush who were in effect charged with attempting to

stabilize the banking system and as it teetered out of control last year. as a result of that expanded policy of credit with the president to reappoint this man and recovery created by the bailout working. that the question we will get into in just a second. the president sticking with ben bernanke as fed chairman and declaring the economy as a working economy which, again, by many -- other measures, not so much. it comes on the same day that the white house will raise its deficit forecast to $9 trillion over the next decade and $2 trillion higher, trillion dollars is $1,000 billion. we have gone from a couple trillion dollars in debt to tens of trillions of dollars in liabilities in order to effect the bailouts. specifically the one for the financial system. rona allen live at oak bluffs, massachusetts, martha's vineyard, with the news of the day. what's going on, ron? >> well, we are all curious as to why the president decided to do this today during what has

been billed as a family vacation private time when he arrived here he said he was not going to make any news and was not trying to make news. the main reason perhaps is because of the information that the new deficit projection, $ 9 trillion -- $2 trillion higher than expected. this announcement today sort of shifts the focus, if you will, to the broader economy, to financial system. where there's perhaps better news for the administration. but that's the aspect to why he would do this today. breaking up his vacation and he didn't answer that. >> joining the conversation, author greenspan's bubbles, the age of ignorance at the federal reserve. bill, asset manager. relevant to this conversation because of his authorship and study of the federal reserve. jonathan cape cart, karen finney. back with us in person. lovely, each one lovelier than the next, shall we say. bill, i will begin with you. first off, your thoughts on the president's decision, period.

>> i don't think it is surprising. we have chosen to go down the path of the hairful dog that bit us, if you will. the policy for the last 20 years has been print money, print too much money, cause a bubble. have a collapse. print more money and we are back on that path which i think we were going to be on. we can argue whether or not we should have gone down the path but this is the one we have chosen. fairly slam dunk they would reappoint bernanke. >> i think that's exactly right. politically speaking, i mean, take -- politically speaking he really had to do this in order to -- couldn't take on another battle. let's be honest. trying to -- insert his own person. and also, this kind of gives him a little bit of a sense of stability with the gop and he can take them on another front and -- also helps him with the moderate republicans and independents that voted for him and already started and seen the poll number slipping. this crow 80s -- >> interesting political timing, though, jonathan capehart to ron

allen's point. the day they announce an additional $2 trillion in deficit by their own mathematics at a time when he claimed not to want to make any news at all, he suddenly decides to create bernanke headline. in other words, is that too much of a conspiracy? >> it could be. this -- >> these days. >> this is a huge decision. as you said, he said everybody relax. no news will be made. i look at it the other way. this announce many comes in between two big things. yesterday was the release of the cia or the announcement of the independent prosecutor. huge news. late last night they announced that this or at least out that this would happen. >> 9:00. >> leading with bernanke as opposed to cia today. >> the other thing is it comes just before the announcement of this $2 trillion buffer in the deficit which we thought we knew

was come. it can also be that the reason why bernanke was reappointed, remember, he is a bush administration appointee. the obama folks come in and it could be that bernanke proved himself to these folks. yes, stability but also he's shown he can do the job. he should stay. >> let's talk about bernanke's past a little bit here. and maybe his future. in order to get us off the hook on the banking front, total at risk, $23.7 trillion. federal reserve has $14 trillion give or take the the treasury department $7.4 trillion. treasury carries debt -- there's already a few trillion at the treasury. but the $14 trillion was new. $14 trillion. the $7 trillion is much bigger. $2 trillion is the fdic. what risk was created for america when the decision to bail out the banks under ben bernanke was the one i described putting, again, $23 trillion in

risk in order to stabilize the bank's bill. >> risks were sort of multi-layered. first you have the risk of the credit billion and the fed when they -- took all those things that you were hiding in your -- >> garbage bag. >> garbage bag. >> beautiful garbage bag. >> right. right. there's that. on a more serious note, what they basically said was that we are going to monetize anything we need to monetize. >> what's that mean? what does that mean, monetize? >> principle money. in other words, print money. the fed used tomorrow lend against solid collateral, t-bill asks things like that. rock solid. now they said that they would lend against anything. we already know that there are things in that garbage bag no good. so the net effect of all of this is this they said we are going to flood the system with paper script green dollars and when we call moby but in over time what they are going to do is make all of those dollars worthless to try to inflate away the debt

that has been created so that they think that they -- transferred one problem that we had now into the future. we are going to have a lot more debt and we are going to have more inflation as a consequence to try to monetize that debt. >> bill, something you just said. they took this -- this green paper money and then over time they are going to make it worthless? how do you -- how do you do that? >> well, let me ask you this. if -- if we -- if everybody in the world had -- had $500 in their pocket and then walked out and gave you -- everybody another $500, it would take $1,000 to buy the same thing. because they just doubled the amount of money. that's a simplistic example but that's precisely what happens when you create money out of thin air and you make the money that was in existence worth l s less. >> reap cal tappism. create val ushgs i give you money. vampire capitalism, i figure out the way to get money. i take money out.

i want to talk about the garbage bag that bernanke has and then move on with our lives. >> no. >> we really point but we will move on with this conversation. bloomberg, this generation. status quo. the easiest way to pay important this. young people don't vote, why mott steal their money? bloomberg news filed a lawsuit against the fed to find out what they were taking from the banks, collateral, referencing. basically the banks bringing in their garbage at goodwill and we are giving them cash. a judge ruling on bernanke's decision not to reveal what's in that garbage bag. he says the folgs. following.

bloomberg has filed this lawsuit against the federal reserve saying we want to know what pile of garbage you are taking from the banks and giving american money out important the reasons that bill was describing. what does it say about our government politically whether it takes an aclu lawsuit to get information what the cia is doing on be half of the american people to prisoners around the world or what the federal reserve is doing with our financial system we need to sue them and the only people that will let news there are judges that -- no one else, congress, no one else will do it. >> i think the problem is and the message it sends is we might be reshuffling the desk chairs but underneath we are not changing things. we have a group of folks meeting in jackson hole over the weekend. jackson hole. come on. how many americans would love to be able to go on a vacation at jackson hole? >> the three of us will go after the show. we will use bill's plane. >> private plane.

>> this -- sorry. >> who knows. >> disconnect between this conversation we are having and what's really happening on main street and in people's lives. again, i think what it shows -- >> what's politician -- what does that tell bus the political leadership in this country whether it is the cia conversation that we would have led with this morning if it was than for the decision by the president to reappoint bernanke or the bernanke conversation we are effectively forced in a by the president which forces us once again to acknowledge the secrecy that exists a at the time federal reserve? >> politically speaking, it says that on the one hand we need to try to have some change. but probably not all the same -- >> not too much change. >> let's not forget that the federal reserve is independent. and so they have -- >> no, no. no. they are independent but -- my question is -- does their independence allow them to compromise the future of the country? >> no. >> at what point -- >> no.

politically speaking, my point is on the surface of it when people say waited second, why can't we know what you have and you are telling me you want to be transparent, that -- that doesn't make sense. >> the judge is saying if your best argument is you look weak to competitors when people find out that's a pile of garbage in the garbage bag -- >> china owns half of us anyway. hello. >> the travel reserve never said -- >> they won't be. that's why making the point -- >> that's were there is a lawsuit. >> i really appreciate that you do that. again, the book, "greenspan bubble." stu, sir. let us move on with our lives. much more ahead here on "morning meeting." dick cheney, the cia investigation we would have led with, we will do it now. the decision to investigate cia interrogations of suspected terrorists. who should pay for any detainee abuse if anybody? was this not all proved by the department of justice before

they took out the power drill and dletdenned to rape your mother. that's what they argue. that's what they argue. they say listen, we were approved to do. then -- yes. >> bring your mother in. >> mom. >> it is approved. michael jackson's death, get a load of this one, ruled a homicide. the investigation, the charges,ing the doctor that gave the king of pop four different types of drugs in the 24 hours that preceded his death. if the valium doesn't work, oh, boy. we are back with the cia right after this. achoo!

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welcome back. i'm contessa brewer. nbc news committed a team of people to read and analyze the newly released cia documents. this is not a pretty picture. the papers show a very dark side to the american war on terror. terror suspects, not just interrogated but threatened. even sexually humiliated. here's just some of what we learned. accused u.s.s.kohl bomber was stripped naked and threatened would power drill. suspects' families were fair game, too. one told the detainee we are going to kill your children. attorney general eric holder will investigate each case. details on the cia report about ten in all. additional cases were redacted from the report and skeptics are suspicious that more abuse cases could be even worse than the one weers reading about. those cases remain classified. for now. still former vice president dick cheney says the report vindicates the cia interrogators. he says that the activities of the cia were directory

responsible for defeating all efforts by al qaeda to lunch further mass casualty attacks. the people involved deserve our gratitude. they do not deserve to be the targets of political investigations or prosecutions. cheney says this is why americans doubt president obama's ability to be responsible for u.s. security. keeping in mind here eric holder who has decided to appoint the special prosecutor made a decision independent of the white house. >> so who stands to take the fall, if anybody, for these abuses? perhaps more importantly, how did they come to be? how do we create a third class of prisoner in america in effect. geneva convention creates one stan card and american incarceration, another standard. this does not comply with either standards but yet new standard created. we only just found out about. jack rice, former sigh special agent. our panel remains with us. jack, how did we end up with a third class of prisoner that was subject to all of these different treatments without

ever having indulge the bizarre and unusual process of democracy where we debate the creation of a third class of prisoner before we start sticking power drills in people's mouths? >> yeah. very odd. isn't it? all of a sudden i just realized if i threatened to rape your children and kill your family, that's -- i guess i should thank people for that. if i'm going to interrogate people i didn't realize that's how it would play and make me safer. mr. vice president, thank you so much. i didn't realize. >> setting both of our sarcasms aside how is it that the justice department -- in other words, either the justice department at some point said listen, not what you need to do, we won't prosecute you and now here we are. or this was done without the endorsement. what is it? >> let's be serious about this now. you are right. it is the -- first of all, i doubt that the cia officers would have done this

unilaterally. i can look back to what was going on with iran-contra and i think back to what was going on then and there were a lot of people who felt like they were being thrown under the bus by the agency itself. i think they don't just go off the reservation. if they are going do something, it is because station chiefs say it is okay. the ddl, deputy director of operations. head of all -- would say that it is okay. they don't just do this. so i think what's important here is to sort of roll up the chain of command and figure out who said that it was okay to do what. now, if it was made clear from somebody at justice department that you can threaten people's families, that you can threaten to rape their mothers, that you can threaten to kill their children, by the way, i am a four of four daughters, contemplate that. if there is somebody that said that you don't just prosecute people at the bottom of the heap but walk your way up the chain and go after somebody. anybody who actually said that was okay. if the vice president was sitting in his office someplace saying oh, yeah, if you need to threaten their children, that would be fine. you know what? maybe somebody needs to talk to the vice president. >> that's exactly right.

we saw this with abu ghraib. the people, sxrang file people that were asked to carry out the orders who were punished but not necessarily the people who gave them those orders or the decisionmakers at the top. hopefully -- as they go through this investigation, we will learn more about how those decisions get made and if there is a need to hold those people accountable. >> to me, that's the only thing. in other words, what are the politics of the creation of a third class of prisoner in american culture? which is effective whether we want to say that or not -- that's in effect when we have done. where we said there is a third type of criminal that as a terrorist for whom we will use a new standard of interrogation techniques and treatments because we believe that their threat is different than anybody else's. that was nevering a conversation that was had in a democratic fashion. >> these were -- but these decisions -- >> or public. >> made in the aftermath of 9/11 and -- imminent -- >> we know that. >> imminent attacks. >> no, no, no. does that mean you are allowed

to advocate democracy? we were attacked. >> no. i would argue -- no. remember, jack raised very good points. folks of the cia were aprayed of taking the fall. and they kept going back to the justice department and too the administration saying that we need guidance. give us guidance. we get these memos from the justice department and they were all doing something that were deemed legal by the bush justice department but also -- as andrea mitchell reported earlier, this morning, remember, those guidelines handed down by the justice department were already perfect missive. we are talking about people that went over a very perfect missive line. >> to dim an's point, one of the things -- you know, story that's not being talked about is rendition. >> what's -- >> the -- administration -- sending people -- taking them off the street and sending them to another country. the administration announced that they will continue that policy, all thrown under new guidelines, i think part of it, jack probably knows, it says the cia -- instead of the cia it will be the fbi that will -- i'm

not sure how that -- >> same guy, different badge. get in van and shut up. thank you. >> we have a problem with that. the real problem with the rendition -- >> you know, jack, hang on. can i get to you come back at ten cloak? i have to go to commercial sad by. not sadly but greatly otherwise we wouldn't be on television. i send you to these delightful messages on the "morning meeting." most for headaches.

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and save up to $15 off your refills. go to nasonex.com for details, terms and conditions. good tuesday. i'm contessa brewer. we are following breaking news out afghanistan. four u.s. service members have been killed by an improvised explosive device in southern afghanistan. the military did not release any other information about those deaths. that brings the number of u.s. troops killed in afghanistan this month to 41. the second deadliest month in

the country since the 2001 invasion. we are getting preliminary results from last week's presidential election in afghanistan with just 10% of the returns in, president hamid karzai holds a slim lead over abdullah abdullah. 40% to 39% according to reuters. the full results are due september 3rd. ratification will come about two weeks after that. the uproar over the lockerbie bomber's release growing every day. residents of inglewood, new jersey, want to block gadhafi from pitching a tent there when he attends the u.n. general assembly next month. the town's mayor said it would be offensive for gadhafi to even get a visa for the visit after the pan am flight bomber got a hero's welcome last week. new jersey congressman steve rossen says gadhafi is forbidden to live there. quick break here. if you think all batteries are the same, consider this:

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welcome back to "morning meeting." time to reset the agenda for next half hour. the president announcing he's reappointing bernanke as fed chairman. thanked berman key for helping to steer the nation's economy out of the deepest downturn since the great depression. >> approached the financial system on the verge of collapse with calm and wisdom. with bold action and out-of-box thinking. helped put the brakes on our

economic freefall. >> small price tag of $23 trillion gets it done. the opening bell. sounds on wall street. investors like the idea of a second bernanke term. but at this very moment the white house office management and budget releasing new deficit estimates. a few trillion more. we will have that breaking news in just a moment. michael jackson's death, a homicide, karen finney. >> sound effects for this one. >> we will look at the drugs he took in the final hours of his life and the doctor who could now face manslaughter charges as a result. it is quite an impressive list between 1:00 a.m. and 11:00 a.m., the next day. then americans in general are they simply in denial? not just about the economy and the bank bailout but health care and the health care crisis? for that matter, the cia and for that matter swine flu.

if they are, who could blame them with a list like that. speaking of health and swine flu, startling swine flu predictions. panel of white house experts saying the pandemic could infect as much as half of the united states population this fall. taxing school systems, causing a run on hospital beds, and what's the latest? >> i know how good -- scientific adviser to the president are warning the swine flu outbreak could get worse before it gets better. they say it is likely up to 50% of the u.s. population will get h1n1 sometime this year and predict as many as 90,000 could die and nearly 2 million could get sick enough to need hospital treatment. >> think it is likely that we are going to need two shots for the vaccine and we think that there are about three weeks between shots. so from the 15th of october until about thanksgiving is when we will have an immunized population. >> we are looking at fewer vaccination doses than we need. 45 million by mid october compared to 120 million dose it is government was expecting.

the president asked the adviser for report and are urging drug makers to speed up their vaccine production. they also recommend that the president take a senior white house staff toesh the point person on swine flu. the adviser suggest using twitter and facebook to tell young people how to protect themselves from the infection. by the way, schools and college, just beginning their fall seemes terse now, they are preparing for outbreaks and the university of kansas already has 47 students with the swine flu. the university's isolating the students or sending them home until they are better. unlike seasonal flu, so far swine flu is hitting young healthy people and especially high numbers here. >> all right. thank you very much, contessa. joining us, dr. nancy snyderman. nbc's chief medical editor. host of "dr. nancy," noon. doc, welcome back and nice to see you. >> hi, dylan. >> fearful of what's about to come out of your -- i don't like doctors. like you but the doctor makes me

nervous. >> kathleen sebelius talks and tony fauci talks, you have to listen. this is a new virus which skipped from one animal species to another, little bit of birds, in pigs, it is in humans. new to most americans. it is going to cut a swath through those who have no immune memory for it. that's why it is a big deal. anybody born since 1957 and is no you or me, they are at risk. >> 1957 forward, you are a problem. >> yes. you have nothing -- >> i just -- prematurely gray from all the drinking in my day. >> you are really at risk. your liver is not even going show up for work. >> so if we assume everybody '57 for us the three of us -- >> not me. >> we would never know it. >> yeah. look --

>> what can we do? what, if anything, can be done? don't tell us to wash your hands. >> you have to. >> you have to. >> cover your cough. >> i have a 15-year-old and i think 15-year-old boys have grimeiest hands anywhere. all i have done the last few days is talk to him about getting ready for high school which means washing your hands. hand washing alone, i think this is one time when americans want to show up and get this vaccine. what i worry about is that there is enough distrust of the american government and people are trillioned out and numb over the wall street thing and will look and say please, another way to make a buck and say don't tell me what to do. well, you know what, i-can't tell what you do but i will tell you what i think you should do. what you should do is get the vaccination. >> tell us, again, to address the aspect of distrust or people's laziness or they don't want to deal with it or too scary, whatever it is. what is it that you see about this particular flu virus, this particular time, that makes you come on this particular show and not others and say i think that

this is real and i think that we have to get a -- off of our derrieres and take action here because there's a real risk of a meaningful swath of this country -- >> you have to be worried. this virus presented itself in the spring. unlike normal flu that goes away over the summer, this has not. it percolated in summer camps. it is already popping up in schools. it is a terribly efficient virus. it skipped around the globe to over 170 countries within weeks. now, it is not a big killer yet. it may not be. but if you want to play russian roulette you have to make that decision. i think it is going to come back because we know schools are going to be breeding grounds. why not get it? here is the big hiccup. it is not going to be an use thing. it will require two shots. what i'm telling people to do is get your normal seasonal flu shot now. that's not going to give you any protection for swine flu. and then when the vice president vaccine is avail fastball october, get the other one. >> quickly.

>> some things to keep in mind, though. from everything that i read about -- you know better. that the swine flu -- particularly in the united states, and -- actually gone through the southern hemisphere where it is winter now, it has been particularly mild. it is not more lethal than, say, regular flu. >> which kills 35,000 people. >> kills 35,000 people. let's not get people so freaked out to think that swine flu when we say it will cut a swath across the country -- >> flu. not necessarily pandemic. >> but -- when i say it cuts a swath, people infect pd people that die of normal seasonal flu are usually the elderly, very young, impaired. the average age of infection with this virus is 19. average age of hospitalization is 37. >> there is an economic impact with this. we are saying stay home, if your kid has to stay home, you have to stay home with your child. think about people -- if they stay home they lose their jobs. think by people who, frankly,

just bring it back to health care, don't have a doctor to get the shots. the economic impact we were talking about, small businesses, large corporations, it could have serious ripple effects. >> take "the washington post" and you say okay, for those of you that get sick, those of you who have sick kids, you could easily say 30% of your work force doesn't show up. now, "the washington post" may be have enough people kit bring in. if you are a small business owner with 100 people, it is huge. >> this is a conversation that gets -- this is one of those ones -- >> capehart may be working triple time. >> what do you do now, what we do now as a country, deployment of the vaccine and hand washing and covering your cough. >> look, this is one time, forget the conspiracy. listen to our government agencies. these guys are telling the truth. you know, there's no conspiracy here, folks. just get your damned vaccine. >> thank you, doctor. thank you, thank you. a doctor that says damned.

next up on "the morning meeting," damned dr. nancy. the king of pop's death was ruled a homicide. that's no laughing matter. toxicology results showing michael jackson had lethal levels of propofol in his system. a drug he used so often he called it his milk. a look at these major developments and what it means for the doctor. are we heading towards another homicide trial in los angeles with a famous victim? sure looks that way. nancy has her fingers crossed. i joke. we are back after this. so? mmmm ok. you were right. these healthy choice fresh mixer thingys, they taste fresh... say it again! what? say it like, "mmmm, these healthy choice fresh mixers taste freshh!!" they taste fresh... wait. what are you doing? got it. you're secretly taping me? you were good too! but you know, it wasn't a secret to us, we knew... yes, but it was a secret to me. of course, otherwise i would be sitting like this and completely block his shot. so that's why i was like...

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the powerful anesthetic we have been hearing about propofol every night for six weeks. six weeks, to treat jackson's i am insomnia. murray was concerned jackson was becoming addicted and the timeline of the night of jackson's death, according to the affidavit, shows dr. murray tried multiple other drugs before giving in to jackson's demands for propofol the night before he died. at 1:30 in the morning, dr. murray gave jackson valium. a half hour later, anti-anxiety drug lorazepam. when jackson was still awake an hour after that, dr. murray opted for the sedative. more of those drugs. fast forward. just after 10:30 the next morning, murray finally gave an in to jackson's request and gave him propofol with lydocaine. turns out that was a lethal dose. according to the affidavit, dr.

marry found jackson unresponsive a few moments later but had is essential here, this sounds like such a smoking gun. dr. murray's attorney releases this statement. there have you it. it seems to be some sort of smoking gun here. but then as we expected, before this statement came up, now some legal wrangling going on. >> the smelling of a murder trial. >> i'm smelling one. >> in los angeles. i want to bring in here dr. george craft, board certified annan theesh oriole gist. criminal defense attorney, paul cowan. he involved many cases involving propofol which has been -- strikes me as a curiosity to begin with. i'm going to come back with you in just one second. i want to begin with dr. graph, bort certified anesthesiologist.

use me as an example as somebody that works a lot and i sleep pretty well but let's pretend that i don't. valium, lorazepam. what are these drugs used for? why would they be given to a person to help them sleep? >> all three of those drugs are used in various settings. midzolam is used almost exclusively by anesthesiologists, short acting and use it frequently intravenously before an anesthetic. valium and lorazepam, better known as ativan may be used short term for anxiety and help people sleep. over a long period of time, people will become resistant to it. the tolerance will lead invariably to the situation we

saw with mr. jackson which is -- it doesn't work. >> which -- leads you to propofol. in other words, point of -- i create a tolerance for valium and tolerance for these other two drugs, i still can't sleep, so now my demands escalate and propofol is the next step up, is that correct? >> no. well -- you have to understand the setting for the use of these drugs is totally inappropriate. >> of course. >> you know, the -- the standard of care would not dictate that anybody with insomnia be treated in this manner. >> no. we are just pretending i'm a celebrity pop star and have you no morals. if we were to go down that road, propofol is a meaningfully more active chemical than the other chemicals? sit just a different chemical? >> well, it is different than the -- it is very short acting. it is given intravenously. and -- it will put a patient to sleep. even if -- if someone has gone

over and over again they will not develop resistance and tolerance to it. it will work. when you add it to other sedatives of medications the side effects goes way up and much less medication is necessary to cause respiratory depression and cardiac depression. >> respiratory depression and cardiac depression, your heart stops beating and you don't breathe, correct? >> that's absolutely correct. >> paul, criminal defense attorney, handled many cases involving propofol. is that a correct -- >> it is true. i represent a lot of anesthesiologists in medical malpractice cases, not criminal cases. when they get sued for medical malpractice usually it is a death occurs in the operating room. propofol is almost always

involved. not necessarily the drug that kill it is patient but pretty much every case where you see general anesthetic propofol is administered during the procedure. >> you are from the point propofol is just around because -- >> common denominator in so many cases. i heard this from other surgeons and i heard this from so many people in the medical community. is this the common denominator and you have other options like versed? why do you keep using it? i know you can't answer it from a medical instant point. as an attorney do you advise -- the numbers are conclusive. if you want to keep it safe then -- you know. >> propofol is very safe when used in an operating room. it is a great drug and puts people to sleep quickly. what doctors like about it is the patient wakes up immediately like within two minutes and is clear-headed. that's probably what michael jackson loves bit, too, knocked him out and woke right up. versed is different.

ativan. it makes you forget. when you have a colonoscopy, it is widely used in colonoscopies. who wants to remember that horrible situation? it makes you forget bad feelings you had. >> as an attorney you look at the -- you get a as a matter of fact thorring of evidence that exists in the public domain now. do you agree with the decision by the lapd to treat this as a homicide based on what you understand and how do you think -- where does it go from here? >> it is clearly appropriate to term it a homicide because a homicide is just a death caused at somebody else's hands. it does not mean it is a criminal case. it is looking to me like it may be a legit mack reckless a legi manslaughter case. if an anesthesiologist used propofol which is the bazooka of sleep medications. he is firing up a bazooka at

michael jackson nightly and doing it out of an operating room. when you meet that standard, it's criminal. >> if dr. murray called you and asked you to defend him, would you take the job? >> it would depend on whether he could afford me, you know? >> thank you, counsel. and, thank you, doctor. courtney, we need a title for you. >> let's make one up at the break. >> perfect. >> up next, robin williams as susan boyle. he has the look as we saw from his days as mrs. doubtfire. we're heading to the break room and with toure on the water cooler side of things. ♪ you got the look you got the look ♪ pollen. when i really liked to be outside, i did not like suffering from nasal allergy symptoms like congestion. but nasonex relief may i say... bee-utiful!

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welcome back. a new gig for robin williams and

the most dangerous woman in the world. toure has the details. >> when a beautiful voice left out susan boyle's face and the cold heart of a finance man like you was moved i knew light bulbs were flicking on above hundreds of heads in hollywood because her story was made for the big screen. but who to play susan? merle streep, judi dench? no! robin williams who got comfortable wearing a dress in public during mrs. doubtfire. >> tootsie. >> no, that was dustin hoffman. >> same principle. in other words, male casting for a female role. >> but we're talking robin will ams. >> i like it. >> anyway. moving along. >> it's been done. >> the most dangerous woman in the world? who is it? not whoever dylan is currently torturing a/k/a in a relationship with jessica biel. internet searches for jb will

more likely lead to a computer virus than any other celeb. 1 in 5 shot at getting a computer transmitted disease when you search for her. other stars are beyonce, jennifer aniston and tom brady and jessica simpson. why anybody is still searching for jen aniston, i don't know. she made the leap from tvs to movies and not happening. >> not happening? >> what is going on? not happening. making movies with dogs. not happening. >> my character was indicted. >> a little bit. >> try to be supportive and helpful. >> are you a friend to the lady? are you going to get made someday? >> through the mud i'm dragged. >> are you going to get married one day? >> i could. >> i heard you may never get married. >> i may never get married but i could get married. >> i hear courtney screaming! >> second hour of the "morning meeting." thank you, toure, i think.

announcement comes from the president. the president said he wouldn't make news two days into his vacation and makes this. same day we have bank-busting deficit numbers due out. what does it mean for the economy? what does it mean for the taxpayer? what does it mean for america? we're back on msnbc after this. ♪ ♪ happy together ♪ ♪ bicycle, i've missed you. gathering dust, as pollen floats through the air. but with the strength of zyrtec ® , the fastest, 24-hour allergy relief,

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under fire with the white house also predicting exploding multitrillion dollar deficits on this day. they attempting to distract the news media and americans for that matter from the deficits that have been created. we'll get into that. cheney blasting the decision to investigate the cia terror tactics. who will take the blame for the effective creation of a third class of prisoner without any approvals from government? bernie madoff, rumors of cancer? speculation about his life behind bars including reports he is part of a native american prayer group. there are worst things, i imagine. how is he adjusting to life in the slammerer? a prison expert in a second. americans in general in denial about everything. economy, health care and even swine flu. polls out with -- out of sync i should say, with reality. are americans craving good news

at their own peril? it is 10:00 a.m. pull up a chair and join the "morning meeting." first and foremost, the president, an hour ago, reappointing ben bernanke to a second term of the chairman of the federal reserve. he credited bernanke's action while helping to put the brings on the free-fall created by the excessive lending that we saw come out of wall street the past ten years but not out of the woods yet. later today the white house will raise its estimate for the national deficit from 7 trillion to 9 trillion over the next decade. that doesn't include the 14 trillion that bernanke himself had to absorb under the federal reserve in order to try to stabilize those banks. nbc's ron allen in martha's vineyard where the president and the chairman spoke just an hour ago. hi, ron. >> dylan, how are you today? the other numbers that the white house is going to release today are about unemployment and the economy contracting at a sharper

rate than was initially projected earlier this year. so there is two more bad economic numbers as well as that deficit number you were referring to. i think the announcement of bernanke was met as counterbalance to put good news out there, good economic news because i think that's how the reappointment of bernanke is going to be perceived certainly by the financial markets and, for the most part through congress and for the most part through the economic community. as you said, he credited bernanke with helping pull the economy back from the brink. he also said that bernanke helped prevent a second great depression. here is some of what the president had to say. >> an expert on the causes of the great depression, i'm sure ben never imagined that he would be part of a team responsible for preventing another, but because of his background, his temperament, his courage and his creativity, that is exactly what he has helped to achieve. >> another reason the white house did this is to keep continuity with the economic team. that's important and it seems to

be sending a positive signal to the markets which another thing the white house wants to do today especially because there are such dim, i guess is the best word to describe it, economic numbers coming poup dylan? >> all right. thank you, ron. is the economy coming out of the woods? at what risk? let's bring in our panel. neil irwin of the "the washington post" and karen finney, a democratic strategist spent plenty of time in the white house, communications director for the dnc at that time and jonathan capehart editorial writer for "the washington post" a charming and handsome fellow and old friend. >> charming and handsome special? >> yes. neil, obviously, we have much more functionality, the ability to borrow money, the stock market has stabilized as a result and job losses are not as rapid as they once were so you have a nice data set on the one side of the ledger. on the other side of the ledger, i got 23 trillion total at risk, not that that is all to be lost

but that has been put up against the future of america in order to facilitate this recovery. how do you balance uncle sam's contributions to stability to an economy that is, obviously, showing a little percolation as a result? >> what we've learned in the last few weeks is the economy has looked better is if the government throws everything at a problem, if they cut -- ben bernanke did all of these programs, they did a stimulus package, that you can get growth out of that. it looks like we'll have positive gdp growth the second half of the year and recession is probably over or will be soon but not the same as fixing everything. the question is whether that is the beginning of a sustainable recovery or a blip will go away and in 2010 we will talk about how terrible things are all over again. >> neil, you're at "the washington post" and so is karen and jonathan. what is your sense, karen, of the government, whether it's congress, the white house, the judiciary, their willingness to engage the system that mandated

the response that bernanke had to basically do? >> you know, it's sort of a cautiously approach. i mean, i think there is a recognition that we have to make changes. but, at the same time, how much change is too much change? particularly at a team -- remember, politically speaking the war in afghanistan and things putting pressure on the white house and congress so how far they want to go with this is constrained a little bit by that. i think we will go through incremental changes. >> i feel, jonathan, from watching last year, when it comes to markets and money, washington would really not have to deal with it at all and much rather do other things, quite honestly only if the markets command a market. collapse in the market and collapse in the currency and spike in the interest rates. the risk is not so much a stock market collapse, the risk right now is continued depreciation in the u.s. dollar or a big spike in interest rates at some point. and basically, to take what

karen is saying, unless we get a market force that demands to know what is in that garbage bag at the fed by way of weaker currency you're not going to see any change. >> what you hope happen during the financial crisis that started almost a year ago now -- >> under president bush. >> that congress is now paying attention, that economy and finance and all of those things are very complicated for just everyday person. imagine what that is like for the folks representing them on capitol hill. >> so easy to steal money from the taxpayer because they have no idea so let's just take all of the money. that's genius, really. >> for me with the financial crisis is when speaker pelosi and the house and senate leadership came out of that meeting after they medicine with fed chairman ben bernanke and those guys, the blood was drained from their faces because what was told to them in that room is if we do not act now,

here is what is going to happen. all hell is going to break loose. everything we know will no longer exist. >> i get that! i get the threat! but what is stunning to me is that they can go through that experience, stunning, put 23 trillion, each trillion is a thousand billion. >> right. >> and feel there is not any meaningful reason to get -- go after the structure that created that. >> well, i think they are going to try to go after the structure, though. let's be clear. again, i feel as a good democrat i need to make a point. this started under president bush. >> no, it actually started under president clinton. >> well, no. >> it did. >> the people weren't enforcing the law. >> fair enough. if you want to get into a political argument, the legislation was created in '99. we created the deep left and the deep right had something they could agree on which was the house and everybody gets a house and the deep right everybody gets rich. you want to go to politics it goes to '99. >> the last eight years under which basically -- >> no enforcement for sure.

>> oh, hey, do whatever you want, right? >> the rule changes under clinton. >> all right. but again, i will concede that. point being, i think president obama to jonathan's point, i inherited this mess and, again, you had to do something whether you agree or disagree with the way he did it. >> my only criticism this is evidence of a failed system that was created in '99 and legislated in '99. i'm interested to see what our governing body does to fix the broken system. go ahead, neil. >> the political system doesn't react until it's a crisis moment and they don't have much choice. you got the power to deal with with firms that were failing and we had the steep crisis. now things look better. pardon me. will there be the political will to deal with these very fundamental problems and how the system has been arranged or will congress go on a holiday and worry about other things? >> that's exactly it! >> until currency rate goes down or interest rates go up i think

congress is forced to deal with it. swine flu predictions are out. a panel of experts say the pandemic could in fact, as many as half of the united states population this fall and say it is rather likely that 30% to 50% of the population will get h1n1 sometime this year and predict as many as 90,000 could die and nearly 2 million sick enough to need hospital treatment. we're looking at fewer vaccination doses than we need. only 45,000 compared to october. compared to the doses the government was planning on. u.s. service members, four have been killed by a ied in afghanistan. the military didn't send the other information about those deaths but brings the number of u.s. troops killed in afghanistan this month to 41. the second deadliest month there since the 2001 invasion. we're getting preliminary results from last week's presidential election in afghanistan. 10% of the returns in so far and

it looks like president hamid karzai holds a very slim lead over his closest challenger abdullah abdullah. looks like both have almost 40%. the full results due september 3rd and ratification comes two weeks after that. check out some dash camera video taken by georgia police officer. a guy stopped for traffic violation and then he just takes off! the officer is pursuing the van as the driver swerves around other cars and then the suspect gets out and runs away! the tree feeling the brunt of the impact there. police arrested the guy and the woman who was in the car. what kind of a guy, dylan, does that? he jumps out and leaves the woman in the car! >> was there a woman in that car? >> yes! a woman was with him! >> wow! >> that's not right! >> he probably said, listen, jump. we're both jumping and she daepted jump. >> blame her! >> oh, it's the woman's fault! >> she is a back seat driver!

>> she didn't listen to him? >> i'm kidding! >> that's terrible. i hope she did not get -- that's terrible. jump, jump, we're jumping. no, i'm not jumping out of this car, you fool! >> come on, darling, let's jump together! >> romantic. >> how crazy of her not to jump out. >> i should shut up. up next on the agenda of the "morning meeting," prosecuting the cia. who will ultimately take the fall for harsh interrogation practices of terror suspects and how high will it go and how will we create a third class of prisoner and no one knew about it, karen finney, kind of tricky. >> i'm just a woman. >> low blow! jump out of the car, okay? we're back on msnbc right after this. having the right tools is crucial to being able to manage your diabetes properly.

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attorney general eric holder opening the doors to a potentially explosive criminal investigation naming a federal prosecutor to look in to alleged detainee abuse at the hands of the cia. pete williams joins us from washington with the full rundown. >> what the attorney general here says is he wants a very limited investigation. he has asked a federal prosecutor to look into fewer than ten cases of what the attorney general says appear to be illegal interrogation that went way beyond the cia's rules. that departed significantly from what was allowed by the justice department and the cia in the enhanced interrogation. this is not cia operatives who followed the rules. this is not the justice department lawyers who authorized and not the cia

people who came up with this plan. as you might imagine, dylan, this has been attacked by both sides. lawyers for detainees say it doesn't go far enough and it should good into the justice department and the cia who did the overall program. on the other hand, former vice president dick cheney says documents released yesterday show that the enhanced interrogation program actually prevented terror attacks and provided the bulk of information about al qaeda. here is part of his statement. he says -- the question i think,, i think, while the attorney general wants them limited to these, is it possible the prosecutor who gets into it could take it further?

officials doubt that is going to happen. dylan? >> thank you very much. can i keep you for one second? >> yes, sir. >> i have a question. >> you bet. >> once you create a special prosecutor like this, no matter what they say about the scope or whatever the origin may be, once you engender this entity, how much control do you really have after it begins its process? >> right. a minor legal point. this is not technically called a special prosecutor. this is a career federal prosecutor who is already looking into one cia matter, the destruction of video yo tapes. you touched on the big question here. once any prosecutor starts working on something what are the limits? he's not an independent counsel and not a special prosecutor. he doesn't have all that kind of free range, but that remains an open question. presumably he could take it more broadly. the senior department officials

say no, it really is confined to these narrow cases that appear to go way outside the bounds what have was allowed. >> right. it goes to gwynne sort of that war theory of mission creep and once you begin a task and the task becomes another task. >> right. >> thank you, pete. joining us from washington is jack rice, former cia special agent and host of his own program on air america and republican strategist ron christie joins us and former special assistant to george w. bush and served as deputy assistant to vice president cheney and karen finney, democratic strategist and jonathan capehart is handsome and charming of "the washington post." ron, the appropriateness of prosecution in this case, period. and perhaps beyond the appropriateness of it, where that prosecution ought to be directed. in other words, is it proops to direct it back to the people doing it back to the things, even though they fear they were cleared by virtue of higher powers or are we headed to one

of your foirmer bosses, dick cheney, higher power whether he authorized these behaviors? >> i think the first thing we should take a look at back in april of this year the attorney general eric holder said we should not go back and relitigate this. we should not say to people we looked into this, we've had an opportunity to look at the facts, you're clear. now a few months later, the people in the clear, all of a sudden, maybe they're not in the clear and maybe we should prosecute them. i wonder if this is politically motivated whether based on the law and the fact. what we saw in the report yesterday looking at what dick cheney has always been maintainizing without doubt, these enhanced interrogation techniques not only found additional operatives and allowed the government -- >> that isn't the debate. i won't have the effectiveness to debate because i can't create a parallel universe which we don't do this. what i want to ask you, ron, is this. at what point is it illegal to create a third class of prisoner, period, funded by the u.s. government without first getting the approval of the u.s.

congress, which representing the people, and basically get them to say, listen, we understand the risks, we understand that this is likely to be more effective and so we'll create a third -- effectiveness of for tour is -- >> i'll give you that. my concern here again. the bush administration came under a lot of flak saying why aren't they being tried some the congress worked with the administration. we created a forum for these people to be adjudicated. my concern going on what you just said a moment ago is are you create ago third class? where did the legal authority for this come from and ultimately these are questions -- >> who created that class? >> wait a second. we know dick cheney was involved in a lot of these decisions and why he wanted these memos out there. rather than say, look, we can follow the laws of the united states of america and keep america safe and if the law isn't working rather than in the dark of night, set up guantanamo bay or send people to another country so we can torture them, we should take head-on the fact that if our laws were not sufficient to what we felt we

needed to do, then we should deal with an open forum rather than creating a third clandestine system. to your point about eric holder, clearly, new information came to light that made it to the point where they felt like he couldn't not offer an investigation. >> here is where i have to take issue with you and it drives me nuts about the left. dick cheney lied, dick cheney created guantanamo bay in the dark of the night. >> mass destruction? >> excuse me we're talking about guantanamo bay. it was not created in the dark of the night. we're talking about military tribunals kraeed with the congress. to say this government was torturing people -- >> you know they were. >> excuse me we did not find an absolute fact the united states government broke the law or tortured people illegally. that is not true. what is true, karen -- >> let me interrupt a moment. >> you can't allow this point. what is true is the bush administration worked with the congress and with the vice president said yesterday and what he has maintained, again -- >> because he is the guy who

authorized. >> boy, you -- >> jack, go ahead. >> the bottom line is, yes, the bush administration did this legally because they created a legal cover with others at the justice department. does that make it actually legal? no. his factual decisions and legal conclusions were absolutely debunk. they are absolutely wrong. in addition, we have also found that the bush administration multiple times, this has gone up before the u.s. supreme court, have shot them down again and again and again. we're sort of veering off course, dylan. let's focus on what we should be doing. the first question do you prosecutor the man who said we're going to rape your mother and we're going to kill your familiar plip the answer is yes, you do. this never has actually been prosecuted in the past. >> even if the people at the time were told by their superiors that this type of behavior was condoned effectively? >> now, see that is the difference. if we now find that, in fact, that this was condoned, that this was acceptable, then you do follow that line. look.

i'm a former prosecutor and my attitude, if i had jurisdiction over federal criminal law and i can turn around and say, fine, you were actually justified because somebody above you said it was okay? fine i go after that guy and chase it up that line. my fear what eric holder is going to do is narrow this prosecution down so they are going after essentially the equivalent of e-3s and 4s and 5s and what we saw at abu ghraib. we need to expand this that we are covering people who did something fmedly chronic fundamentally wrong and, more importantly, illegal. >> safe to say this is a fraud investigation if the investigation is launched at all does not investigate who authorized ultimately these standards and practices, right, jack? >> yes, absolutely. you played it out nicely. if we don't address it for real -- if this is nothing more than just putting a nice little bow on it to say we've done something, then we're wasting our time completely. >> and our money. >> no better than the last. >> i think we can all agree the people who thought they were

acting within the law should not be held accountable. it's the people who created these myriad of systems so that we could sort of break the law without breaking the law. we need to go to the top. i think actually that is the intention of the attorney general and certainly the intention when senators were talking about it in the investigation we look at full chain of command and not punish people on the bottom. >> out of time. ron, thank you for visiting with us and hope you come back. karen, delightful as always. thank you, jack. enjoy yourself and the weekend and -- not your weekend. the rest of your afternoon! it's summer! willie had me up at 5:00 on the phone! we are plugging into politics. it's nowhere near the weekend after this. plus after unsuccessful run at the white house, former new york city mayor rudy giuliani may be eyeing up the governor's mansion. that, too, next here only on msnbc. (announcer) we will not be quiet

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for president and now he may be running for governor. rudy giuliani can't give it up. what does he got in mind now? >> he is eyeing it and traveling the state and meeting with top party leaders to find out whether he has a valued candidacy for the governor of new york state. he is even going to michael bloomberg, his successor in this role, asking for his opinion and talking to peter king and senator toyed with running for governor himself and said if giuliani is going to do it, he is not. in 30 to 60 days we should find out if giuliani throws his hat back into the ring. >> he's a fun politician to cover even if he is a character. >> colorful and candid. >> very candid. oh, rudy! it would be nice to have him back. i don't know. what do i know? be nice to cover him. i don't know if he would be a good governor or not.

still to come in the next half-hour of the "morning meeting," are americans fundamentally in denial? not just about our economy and our banking system, but about health care and, for ma matter, the swine flu. ♪ matter, the swine flu. ♪ t matter, the swine flu. ♪ ha matter, the swine flu. ♪ t matter, the swine flu. ♪ if you think all batteries are the same, consider this: through holly, colorado, e air life denver took to the air... their night-vision goggles keeping them safe on a perilous flight... and powering those precision goggles--- is the only battery air life trusts: duracell. trusted everywhere. look for new duracell ultra advanced now with even more power to protect.

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are americans an optimistic bunch? you bet they are. contessa brewer has a look at some interesting numbers. >> rather optimistic person myself. here you've got the president saying the economy is getting better. gentlemen, the unemployment rate stinks at 9.4% and specked to go higher. yes, the government is potentially on the hook for 23 trillion dollars in emergency loans and bailouts but president obama said today, it could be a lot worse. >> our recovery plan -- >> go ahead, play it. >> extended health care and unemployment insurance to those who have borne the brunt of this recession and continuing to create and save jobs that otherwise would have been lost. our auto industry is showing signs of life. business investment is showing signs of stabilizing. our housing market and credit markets have been saved from

collapse. >> glass half full. it looks like more and more americans agree that things are looking up. new consumer confidence numbers released less than an hour ago show a jump to 54.1 in august, up nearly 10 points from last month, and near the high water mark for all of 2009. oh, yes, there is the swine flu. the government says it could kill 90,000 people. nevertheless a new abc/"the washington post" poll show 6 in 10 americans aren't worried and by the way, we're looking at terror here? when we're talking about the torture debate with the news that there may be prosecutions for what cia operatives did to terror suspects. and, yet, some americans out feeling like whatever it takes to keep us safer and we really shouldn't go after anyone, at least not legally. >> jeff gardere joins us. are americans right? as bad as things may be my happiness resides in my family, friends and community and those around mean and as long as that is intact, i'm happy. or are they in denial that they

don't want to deal with anything beyond their family, their friends, their community ae and, as a result, all of these -- until one pops after another? what are we dealing with? >> i think president obama teachable moment sheer that we do have to look at family, what is most important and we do have to look at the glass as being half full. as famous american once said, when it comes to the economy, it's about the psychology, stupid. and it really is the issue that if we don't have a positive attitude then things can only get worse and not just with the economy about you with our own emotions which makes it much, much worse. >> is there no dispute about that, right? the cycle of the psychology of people and consumption and all this well-founded but whether it's the health care system and we spend 17% of our gdp of people who don't have coverage. swine flu. the banks 23 trillion came out of the taxpayer to make the

banking system work. at what point does our desire to be happy go in a direct contradiction with our refusal to fix a broken system whether it's financial systems or health care systems or anything else? >> i know you have the panelists who want to jump in here. i think it's about a desire to be stable. a desire not to be overwhelmed. we've had 9/11, we've had iraq, we've had the recession. people losing their homes. unemployment. the health care debate. all of these things are overwhelming us as americans. what do the pop psychologists tell america? chill out, relax. you have to find solutions and don't be overwhelmed by society. >> and don't take propofol. karen? >> i did some polling earlier this year on some of these issues and what we found is a lot of americans felt like, you know what? things got out of control and now it's time to kind of get back to the basics. we were all living beyond our means which is something the president talked about. let's get back to the basics,

family, friends. and maybe it's part of what is happening and when people kind of went back to the basics, my life is not so bad, actually. >> you know what i -- from this optimism thing. >> oh? >> who? it's very american trait. americans are naturally optimistic no matter how bad things are, there is always going to be a better day. and so i think that's what this -- that's what this shows. >> it can be done better. the belief no matter how bad it gets, that it will get better and it can be done better. >> the reality is that we are hurting 67% of new polls show 67% of americans are having relationship issues with finances. the apa says 80% of people are really stressed out over finances alone. so to counteract that, we do have to have that entrepreneurial positive spirit. >> it's scare yoi think the government enabling a system. it is generational theft. yes, actually. when you think about the status

quo of being a policy of political exfeed yhency on the left and right to think what they need to do to stay in office but not actually solve for the problems in this country, whether it is a financial system, the health care system, the lobbying in general that controls a lot of the government, those are scary things to deal with, and people don't really know what the alternative is. >> they don't know the alternative but i'll tell you what. if we are in denial about some things, we shouldn't be in denial what the cia found but interrogation, when denial becomes a process where we totally overlook those things that can hurt us as americans, hurt other people, then that's wrong. but if it's about a positive attitude in order for us to be able to pull ourselves by our boot straps and move forward, then that's a good thing. >> that is the fine line with any of these whether a torture or financial or health care debate. >> let's not forget the holocaust where the denial was in america at that point. >> yes. anything else? what was that? >> i said america is saying, yes, we can can.

>> yes, we can, actually. >> or yes, we can can. >> contaes? >> we're looking right now at some breaking news here on the budget deficit. the congressional budget office said the next ten years we will see a budget deficit of 7.1 trillion dollars. the thing is we heard from the president financial folks today they are expecting to see a budget deficit of 9 trillion dollars. slightly more than that. a pretty big gap there between what the congressional budget office says and what the white house advisers are saying, but everybody predicts here that we're going to see unemployment go higher so we'll be watching to see whether those numbers coincide in the future there. you dethe dow jones industrial average up 52% and perhaps some of the news that ben bernanke, the president wants him to stay on as the fed reserve chairman. between friends anyway? >> really. >> it's a rounding area.

>> anything over a trillion bucks makes your mind -- dylan, breaking news here from afghanistan. looks like a huge explosion in kandahar there and gunfire on the streets. comes on the heels of four u.s. troops being killed and we're still waiting on news of the election here but it looks like the violence is continuing unabated, even though the election is over. again, this is a huge explosion in the southern afghan city of kandahar and we will wait and look for some more information coming in on casualties here. north korea reportedly invited the united states to send an envoy for intertalks with the communist nation. they are reporting the obama administration is considering the offer. the meeting could come as early as next month. michael jackson's death has been ruled a homicide paving the way for criminal charges against his personal doctor, conrad murray. according to court documents on i -- unsealed in houston dr. murray had been trying to wean jackson off propoe foal. he said he gave jackson a series

of other drugs on the day jackson died but he didn't work so he gave propofol. he found jackson unresponsive he says about ten minutes later. we'll stay on top of that story. days since hurricane bill blew up the east coast and another potential storm brewing in the atlantic. let's get over to the meteorologist bill karins. what are you looking at? >> good morning to you. this time the storm is forming closer to home and might catch some people off-guard. it's north of puerto rico and the virgin islands. this is not organized yet and not even a tropical depression. the hurricane aircraft will fly it into it this afternoon. the reason we're talking about at this point a lot of our computers saying this is another one of those close calls for the east coast. all of those circles you see there are lines of equal pressure and tight circle in the middle the computer is saying is the center of the storm would be. if this is accurate it will be

offshore like bill was providing big waves for the east coast but friday, get closer to new england and then possibly head up towards the canadian maritime again. sound familiar? exactly what bill did. this is not powerful right now but it has about 60 hours to get its act together. everyone really from the bahamas and carolina coastline and new england will be watching this closely as we head toward the weekend. >> bill, thanks a lot for that. still to come this hour of the "morning meeting," bernie madoff may be serving a life sentence for carrying out the biggest ponzi scheme in this country's history, but could it be a short life sentence if he is suffering from terminal cancer? just speculation as such. we're back with the latest on mr. madoff right after this. hey mom i need some minutes. i just gave you some at the restaurant. yea i know. i threw them out. they were old so... old! they are rollover minutes. they are as good as new. ya know not everyone gets to keep their unused minutes.

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madoff took the plea for the largest ponzi scheme in history. they say madoff has been telling him he is dying of cancer. inmates say he is talking or taking excuse me about 20 pills a day for his cancer and that he does not have much longer, in fact, to live. rumors of him suffering from pancreatic cancer not new and some knew before he arrived at the prison back in june. however the federal bureau of prisons issued a statement saying bernie madoff is not dying of cancer. the "new york post" story is full of inact rasys inaccuracies and we can't full address you will of them they say mad justify is not terminally ill and not diagnosed with cancer. the same people say madoff stripped off his shirt for sweat lodge ceremonies done with other prisoners. >> you can't make this stuff up. >> another prisoner told the

tabloid madoff is making friends with the gay prisoners. larry livine is back in the conversation. out of burbank, head of wall street prison consultants. it's an organization that says it specializes in stock and security fraud, federal sentence reductions as well as consultant surviving the prison life. larry, let us commence first off as pretending you have cancer, if, in fact, that is what is going on here, an advisable tactic when you come into prison and are trying to protect yourself from whatever may scare you? >> well, he might be looking for some sympathy. i don't know, from the staff, from the other inmates. but as far as taking all of these pills, it could be for heart medication, psych meds, thyroid, vitamin. who know. they go to pill line. he's in a medium. he probably is not taking his pill bottles back to his cell so he goes to pill line. they give him these lightly cups with all of these pills in it. you've got inmates standing

behind him. they are shoulder surfing saying, wow, madoff is taking all of these pills and asking him what they are for and he is probably saying i'm dying of cancer so he is trying to blow them off. this kind of stuff happens. >> if you look at the other narrative and not knowing what is, obviously, entire will you true or true at all but the extent he is taken to a community, whether it's the navajo indian sweat lodge crowd or the homosexual crowd, if you were to look at bernie madoff's ability to navigate the first month or two in prison, how do you think he is doing? and what would you advise him going into the fall? >> well, everyone is reaching out to him. i guess they want to be bernie's friend. they want to have the notoriety that they're running with bernie madoff. to get into the sweat lodge, it's been invitation only. i've been into the sweat lodge a couple times and they've got these in all of the prisonship it's sort of a religious kind of

thing and they go in there, take their shirts off and heat the stones up and she smoke sage and they chant and play the drum or they smoke anything else they can get into the institution. so maybe bernie is exploring all kinds of things. i mean i read the "new york post" article also. it talks about the gangs. let's break it down. you got the black gangs. bernie is not running with them. you've got the hispanic gangs. he is not running with them. the white gangs are going to be the errant gangs. they will not take a 71-year-old jew into an area in their gang. the bop, they actually support different religious organizations. you got a bunch of white inmates running around. they call themselves the oster true. they worshipping the greek gods and the prison actually sells them these little four hammers to wear around their neck. so it's a strange situation. >> so bernie is left with, gwynne, this navajo sweat lodge and whoever else is not part of the big three gangs, yeah?

>> the other big three. >> yeah, the other big three. go ahead. >> one of the reports i saw suggested that actually, that the prison systems were left open a little bit of room when they said that he had not been diagnosed with cancer, meaning he could have cancer, but technically their doctors have not diagnosed him yet. i'm wondering is there a process under which they would do so in prison? do you have to be diagnosed to -- >> if we go with your pill theory he is talking with people looking at a cup full of pills sh at what point does the prison get together to do an evaluation to see if he has cancer. >> the evaluation process started the day he hit the prison. he went through administration orientation receiving and discharge. they drew blood either that day or the next day. they are still evaluating him and he is probably not the only one in that pill line taking 20 pills. would you see a pill call three

or four times a day. you might see 25, 30 people lining up and they are all taking 20 pills and butner is a medical complex. they could do the cancer treatment there if had he it. >> last question. madoff apparently brought cans of tuna with him. you said mackerel is the currency of choice. is a can of tuna worth more or less? >> that's about the same price. but i heard they got bernie painting fences. they've got him engraving plaques. so he has got a prison job. what he ought to do is try to work for the commissary trust fund like i did with bobby the book maker. he could get cup chino cappuccino and play there and play cards all day. >> i got it. how many cans of mackerel does it take to get a gig in the commissary? >> you have to be smart and know what you're doing. they had me working in there. the italian inmates recommended

me. they said we have a smart jew that knows how to run things. they plugged him in there and they did. >> the smart italians and jews will run together in prison from time to time? >> actually, we do. >> larry, a pleasure. thank you very much. we will take a break with the take-away. a lot to choose from today! >> we are back after this. back pain in the morning, back playing in the afternoon.

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legal theme through today's show. the cia, what is going to happen. we go to the top and third class of prisoner is one. michael jackson we could be setting up for a murder trial here. most importantly we learned a lot about how to make it in prison. if you're a smart jew you can't hang would you with the blacks or his span nix but you may be

able to be recommended by the italians to hang out in the sweat lodge and drink cappuccino. >> if we're in the car with you and we say jump, we better jump or we're going to find ourselves going into a tree. that is moo take hi away. >> carlos watson picks up next on msnbc live. thank you, larry, for the insight on prison. see you tomorrow for more "morning meeting" and carlos picks up right now. pollen. when i really liked to be outside, i did not ke suffering from nasal allergy symptoms like congestion. but nasonex relief may i say... bee-utiful! prescription nasonex is proven to help relieve indoor and outdoor nasal allergy symptoms like congestion, runny and itchy nose and sneezing. (announcer) side effects were generally mild and included headache. viral infection, sore throat, nosebleeds and coughing. ask your doctor about symptom relief with nasonex. and save up to $15 off your refills. go to nasonex.com

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