medicare only pays for part of your healthcare coverage. you have to come up with the rest. it's all about freedom of choice. back in the sixties, i went my own way. why stop now? so call today for a free information kit. when you call, you'll also receive... this free educational guide to help you... understand your medicare coverage options. it's yours free, so call now. and learn how aarp medicare supplement insurance... can help make your sixties a time of freedom. again. good morning, everyone. welcome to a brand-new hour of msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. torture on trial. the attorney general launch a full-scale investigation aimed at prosecuting cia interrogators who went beyond the law by employing torture tactics on

detainees. major ruling out west takes the michael jackson case to a whole new level. the coroner rules that jackson daejs was a homicide and the last man to see him alive dr. conrad murray could face criminal charges. more than a million infected and as many as 90,000 deaths. a white house panel offers a dire prediction as the nation sets in for a second swine flu outbreak. a terrific hour coming your way. daily beast gerald posenor joins us and scott horton, defense attorney rebecca rose-wood land and richard engel in afghanistan and ron allen is with the president in martha's vineyard. we want to start by fast forwarding through the top headlines. in afghanistan four u.s. troops killed in a bomb blast. that brings the death toll to 41 americans killed there this month making it the second

deadliest month in afghanistan since the 2001 invasion. canadian police say they have identified the woman who brought ryan jenkins to a british columbia hotel where he eventually committed suicide. police aren't releasing her name. only saying that she is a person of interest in the case. president obama has renominated ben bernanke as the chairman of the federal reserve. now, the president interrupted his week-long vacation on martha's vineyard to make the announcement. >> the financial system on verge of collapse with calm and wisdom and bold action and out of the box thinking that has helped put the brakes on our economic free-fall. >> ben bernanke then praised the president for his waivering support for strong and independent federal reserve. i'm joined by a guest co-host for the hour every morning and i'm pleased to have back angela burt-murray.

>> good to see you, carlos. >> good to see you, too. . looks like the president can't get a vacation, huh? >> it's a working vacation in between golf and tennis with his wife. >> golf with tiger woods, no less, i'm told! >> how about that? >> not a bad thing at all. it's interesting. i'm starting to hear anecdotal evidence making people believe the economy is on its way back. in your own business you run a major magazine and you see it up close and personal and plus you've got lots of family magazines in the time warner family. what are you seeing in the magazine business? seeing advertising coming back? >> advertisers are still trying to reach out to the consumers and certainly there has been new numbers coming out saying that consumer confidence is returning. when have you those conversations around the dining room table people are still concerned. this they haven't been laid off they are concerned about possible layoffs and foreclosure crisis is still going on. people still have pocketbook issues aren't allowing them to fully embrace the idea after recovery. >> any surprise evidence of

recovery that you're seeing? are there companies who are hiring? are there people doing things that kind of -- i'll tell you. i was surprised when my barber told me that he is starting to see people tip a little bit more. >> okay. >> telling him he is seeing the economy come back a little bit. >> news facebook is getting ready to do a huge hiring initiative so they are bringing on a bunch of people. i think it was 500 employees they are getting ready to bring on so those are certainly good signs and certainly in the technology space when that starts to come back and innovation certainly is something that we need during this time those are good signs. hopefully, see other companies as well. >> interesting you say that. audrey mcclain of the silicon valley and has joined us several times was talking about that a few weeks ago how often the silicon valley leads the country in the recession. >> we hope it's a sign of good things to come. >> we hope. let's talk about another good person and things to come. we move out to martha's

vineyard. the president's decision to nominate fed chief ben bernanke to a second term. nbc news chief correspondent ron allen is in martha's vineyard. ron, good to see you. >> good to see you, carlos. how are you some. >> good. so no rest for the president and strong words in an early renomination of ben bernanke for a second term. because the president could have waited several months, correct? >> he could. the term doesn't expire until the end of january. this had been talked about for some time. it's our understanding they've had discussions going several weeks. they had a meeting in the white house last wednesday and the white house spokesman here today said after that meeting there was so much speculation about bernanke being reappointed that they wanteded to get this off the table and that is why they did that today. however, this is also a day where there are terribly economic numbers coming out. there are projections of 9 trillion dollar deficit the next ten years and economy expected to contract by 8.2% this year and higher than expected and unemployment expected to linger.

so you might want to make the argument that the white house is trying to counter that bad economic news with the reappointment of bernanke to try to accepted a strong signal to the market there is stability and the economic team is in place and that things are getting better. in his remarks, the president emphasized the positive. things that have happened the past year or so that have pulled the economy back from the brink as we put it and prevented a second great depression. the appointment of bernanke is seen by, for the most part as a very positive thing. a stabilizing thing on a day when otherwise it's pretty grim economic news coming out from the white house. >> final question to you, ron. any other surprise visitors or unusual things taking place on martha's vineyard right now which may speak to some off the other topics the president is dealing with during his vacation? >> well, this was a surprise in and of itself because when the president government got off the plane on sunday he made it clear

he didn't want to make news. those were his words passed along to the press who were following him. two days later that he would come out and do a press conference, they had to know that this was going to happen at some point soon. so that's a surprise. so i say all that to point out that this is going to be a very unpredictable week. we keep hearing it's private time with the family but we just had a major announcement today. who knows what is to come. i think the white house is very concerned about trying to get ahead of things particularly because they seem so far behind on the health care debate. you might look at this appointment of bernanke as attempt by the white house to get ahead on the debate about the economy as they fell behind on the debate about health care. >> ron allen in martha's vineyard, thanks for joining us. i'm jealous that you're there and i'm not. >> that's a good thing! >> that is a good thing. eric holder named a special prosecutor take a closer look at prison interrogation cases.

joining us now to talk about all of this is cnbc john harwood live at the white house. good to see you. >> hey, carlos. >> several months ago i predicted, in fact, that we would see an investigation. a number of of folks at the time including on a spiritual "morning joe" conversation said not a chan chance, the president couldn't afford to look back. were you surprised that eric holder decided to make a preliminary investigation to appoint a vert prosecutor to look into some of these interrogations? >> sints i've been saying for some time the president couldn't look back, i have to say yes, i was surprised by this move. we do have some indications that maybe eric holder was acting on his own and not at the behest of the white house. but i think it's potential complication for the administration. obviously, they've got a difficult situation. many democratic liberals and people who have been concerned members of congress have been concerned with the tactics of the bush administration, who believe they were unlawful, who believe that the interest of

justice requires investigating them. but then you've also got the political imperatives for obama to focus on the problems he's got here and now with health care, with energy, with afghanistan, among other things. and finding it difficult to balance those two things. clearly, leon panetta was not happy with this news and i think we're just going to have to see whether this preliminary inquiry that eric holder has authorized, whether that becomes a full-blown investigation and prosecution. i would be surprised if that happens. but as we've just discussed, i've been surprised before like this morning. >> john, speaking of surprise. i've often said that president obama is as good at using the element of surprise as the other two people i think have been great at it in the last 50 years, namely oprah winfrey and steve jobs of apple. whether he is naming hillary clinton as secretary of state or making announcement about a surprise endorsement like core owe line kennedy. he is very good at using the element of surprise to his advantage. what do you see as an

opportunity particularly in terms of dealing with republicans on this health care issue that could turn the tide for president obama as he returns from vacation? are there any interesting tea leaves that you see out there, maybe a surprise republican senator who might come aboard? >> well, first of all, carlos, i would say the surprise you were just discussing with ron allen, the reappointment of ben bernanke, i think that in itself though it's about the economy, could have the effect of partially disarming some of his critics on the right in terms of big government economic policies. this is a guy who just now reappointed george bush's fed chairman. that sends an underlying tone of stability and moderation from the administration that ni i think in terms of public opinion counteracts some of the acts he has been tag. i think whether the president pays a visit to ted kennedy of massachusetts who is ailing with brain cancer at hyannisport, i

wouldn't rule out the possibility he'll make that visit there which would cohave emotional residence on health care. we know olympia snow will support the debate. but i do think some people lose sight of the fact that the votes still may be there in the house to pass something close to what obama wants to do. and if the democrats could pig figure out to way to work in the senate the votes may northbound the senate too. >> your thoughts as you hear the conversation about president obama's busy agenda and legitimate challenges. >> he has a lot on his plate. turning back to the cia conversation a moment. it's interesting. because cheney is not hiding at all from this issue. he essentially is saying, hey, it worked. and most americans, frankly, are feeling like whatever it takes to keep us safe, we're fine with. so this is a real uphill battle for holder to really be able to pursue this. do you think he has got what it takes to get it done?

>> was that for me? >> john, that's for you. your thoughts. >> you know, i think it is an uphill battle for holder. i think it is a politically problematic thing for the administration. again, we'll see whether or not this is a nod toward the left and says, yes, we're going to ignore the conclusions of the bush justice department in 2004 and look a little bit further into some things that we thought crossed the line. but that's a different thing from a full-blown investigation and an actual prosecution which i continue to think would be problematic and the administration would like to avoid." john harwood, in washington, good to see you. have a good day. a rescue going on right now. significant rescue at a bridge. worker either fell off of a bridge or off of a crane. wnbc chopper is headed that way. it's in progress as we speak. we don't know what kind of injuries or more severe

casualties may be the result of this. but, again, a rescue is under way at the throgs neck bridge in new york city. we'll keep an eye on that here on msnbc. should the cia interrogators face prosecution for using torture tactics? go to twitter.msnbc.com and let us know. or you can go to twitter.com/carloswatson, shoot us a tweet. still to come, michael jackson's lethal cocktail. new court papers detail what the superstar took in his final hours and literally minute-by-minute and drug-by-drug. will the doctor involved face criminal charges and are there other unnamed people brought to the forefront? 2009 is the deadliest year let for the coalition forces. is it time to start talking about withdrawal time line? richard engel will join us live. you're watching msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. hey smart, heard you're getting free nights from hotels.com.

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welcome back to msnbc live. we're following breaking news right now. rescue under way at the throgs neck bridge in new york city. the bridge connects queens and the bronx. we're told a worker either fell off of the bridge or off of a crane. the shot you're seeing is courtesy of wnbc in new york and we hope we have better news but continue to follow the story either way. no denying it anymore. what happened to some suspected terrorists in american custody brown down in black and white for all americans to see. the cia report released the following.

and blowing smoke in prisoner's face to make them vomit. a panel is here to discuss this. scott horton and daphne is with us from the washington independent and pete williams also joins us and today's co-host angela burt-murray. scott, how surprised were you with the report? i know we talked yesterday and last night. you were just finishing one of the reports. what in there surprised you and what captured your attention? >> i think the report comes out pretty much where those who have been following the issue closely expected it to come out. and that is it tells us, first of all, that a lot of the assurances that were given by director tenet and hyden just weren't true. they told the public repeatedly that there were clear legal rules that were being applied and that everything was done in accordance with the law but this report tells us that both of

those directors were on notice from their own inspector general there were serious problems with the program and there were serious issues about its legality. >> if they pushed back, daphne, said there were serious problems here, but they make two points or three. they say, one, it was regrettable. two, it wasn't widespread. and, three, the reality is that it was happening within the context immediately after 9/11, didn't have good intelligence, people were doing the best they can. what would you say if those three things were offered as a response to what scott just shared? >> well, and they have been offered. but that's just not good enough. yes, we know we were in an extreme circumstance, everyone was skaed, but we have laws, we have a constitution, we can't just violate them because we get nervous. i think it's clear that not only were laws violated, but higher ups knew laws were being violated and that the justice department lawyers were approving techniques that they knew were being used illegally. that's what i think was

surprising about the report. i don't know if surprising but many of us have suspected it and seen other support for this, but the idea that the justice department and higher ups at the cia knew what was going on and were approving the techniques that led to some of these horrible abuses you just talked about. >> pete williams, where do you see this going and what rumblings, if any, are you hearing from those both in the justice department and in the intelligence community, given the announcement yesterday? >> well, where it's going is that some of the same ground that was earlier looked at by career prosecutors in the bush administration will now be looked at by a career prosecutor in the obama administration. he will go back and look at what we're told is roughly ten cases where cia operatives went well beyond the rules. we're not talking about people who followed the rules which are controversial. we're talking about people who exceeded them blatantly. those cases will be looked at to see if there is the potential for prosecution. now, all of these cases were reviewed before. career prosecutors said just no way to bring these cases to

trial. there's no way to get sufficient evidence to build a case here. what i think can deduce from that is what is not going to happen, that the attorney general will not call for an investigation. he said this publicly, of any cia operatives who abaded abided by the rules at the time or the justice department lawyers who approved the techniques or the cia people who came up with the plan in the first place and certainly not any of the bush administration senior officials. now, that has produced controversy on both sides. some of the lawyers for the detainees say this is too narrow of a field of prosecutions and others like the former vice president deck cheney say the technique saved lives and learned a lot about al qaeda and werned not we should not be going back and he said these people don't deserve to be the target of political prosecutions. >> you did bring up earlier dick chen cheney's prominent role earlier this year and where he stands. scott told me one of the

interesting things what dick cheney wanted to be released quietly released. your thoughts? >> it's just interesting. we were talking in the early whyier segment that dick cheney is saying, hey, it worked and the ends justify the means and there doesn't seem to be a lot of will amongst the american people to pursue this investigation. so how difficult is it going to be for holder to gain traction, to be able to go after the situation? also, is this what the obama administration, is it another distraction for the obama administration? >> daphne, your thoughts. >> you know, i think the obama administration has to be able to do more than one thing at a time and that is something president obama himself said he is willing to do as president. he has to do that. >> do you even -- that is interesting. because even members of his own party. mario cuomo, speaking with him the other day. you hear him and joe lieberman and others saying maybe health care was too much to take on and we see how much he is struggling now. can he handle this right now? no one is saying it's not important, but can he

realistically handle this right now, given all that is on their plate? plus, as angela seems to suggest, a large part on the part of the american people to see this all the way through? >> well, i think that it's not the president who will conduct a criminal investigation. it's the attorney general and u.s. attorneys who work under the attorney general. and we have prosecutions going on all the time at the same time as the president tries to promote important national policies. so it's not a question of being mutually exclusive. the other thing it's very important to realize is the president and the attorney general under an obligation to enforce the law and we have a convention against torture which is an international law as well as a domestic law that applies to that here. they are obligated to investigate torture. can you argue how far up the chain of command you can look but they are obligated to investigate by law. >> scott? >> i think daphne is right on this. president obama shouldn't have anything to do with this. that is highly irregular. we just came through eight years

of political intervention and prosecution. that's not the way the system should work. we should have proverlgs prosecutors who handle it and the white house should keep out of it. this report really does show that all roads lead to dick cheney. he is in the background all over the report so it's clear why he is apperehensive about it. >> but he is not hiding. do you think the prosecution ultimately looks that high? >> i think that remains to be seen as the facts are developed but i think it opens the way. >> daphne? >> clearly, the attorney general does not want to go there but i don't think that you can conduct an ethical investigation that does not look up the chain of command. >> big words. okay. all right. appreciate you both joining us and look forward to you both joining us again. pete williams, thanks as well. leave that topic there for now. update on breaking news we brought to you moments ago. unfortunately, the new york fire department tells nbc news that a construction worker has, in fact, died in an accident on the throgs neck bridge. it's believed the worker fell or

became trapped under a crane on the bridge. you see the picture there, a live scene. obviously, a sad and horrific thing to have happen. coming up next, afghanistan seems to be stuck in political limbo as the death toll continues to rise for american forces on the ground. is it time to start talking about exit strategies? that's right, exit strategies in afghanistan. not talking iraq. nbc richard engel joins us live from kabul next. ♪

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that? >> yes. we've also learned that the four american soldiers were killed not far from kandahar. no details about their specific unit until their families have been notified about the attack today on a convoy, apparently ied attack. then just this evening, not long ago, a very large explosion in kandahar itself. we've been told it may have been car five car bombs strung together and that it attacked apparently a housing complex, a hotel that was used by foreigners, particularly foreigners working for a security contracting firm. no firm -- no specific details about casualties. one medical official told us that at least 30 people had been taken to a local hospital but there were no exact figures on death tolls. carlos? >> richard, is there a sense there in afghanistan that this uptick in violence is to be expected to some extent, given the i crease in american troops? given the election which

certainly engendered a good bit of heat and given there is really a competition now for land and power there? or are some saying, no, afghanistan is tipping toward chaos and, in fact, it is time to talk about exit strategies? >> a lot of questions in there, carlos. but the military had expected there to be an increase in violence in this period. partly because, as you said, more troops have been going into afghanistan, going into the south where british forces in the past had been there, but in relatively small numbers. not taking as aggressive as a posturing as u.s. soldiers and marines have been doing in places like kandahar. also the taliban simply have gotten better, better at using ieds and better at using complex attacks. generally what we've seen is a lot of ied attacks that are targeting the troops. they'll put an ied in one place and then a secondary ied where

they expect the troops will run to try and take cover. so they have gotten more sophisticated and learned how to fight against foreign troops in the south and really across afghanistan. >> richard, i got to ask you about that. i heard add miles an hour mike mulen say the same thing, the taliban is becoming more sophisticated. when i heard him say it a part of me appreciated the candor but another part of me when i heard him saying that, it made me really uncomfortable and made me think why didn't we know that? he almost seemed to be sharing as if it was new information they were becoming much more sew fisted indicated. is this generally new information or something that given that the british were there and given that we've been there for eight years now that we should have known they were becoming more sophisticated? >> i think part of it is because we were not going to the areas where the taliban had such a stronghold so we might not have realized how good they had become. a lot of people here say the

insurgents of this country have learned lessons not only from this country but from eight years of fighting foreign troops here and forget about all of the years they have spent fighting russians and previous generations of afghans fighting the english. but there is also the lessons that have been learned from iraq and a lot of the ied technology, ied placement. certain reports they are using shape charges that were so dangerous and diddley in iraq. that leading over into this complex. it is a learning enemy we are discovering more the deeper we push into their strongholds. >> richard engel in kabul, be safe and thank you for joining us. coming up, dr. conrad murray is the focus of a manslaughter investigation after the las vegas core owe more rules that michael jackson's death was a homicide. you're watching msnbc live.

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welcome back to msnbc live. let's fast forward through the top henels. veteran affairs department citing sort out a scare mix up. letters were sent to more than a thousand veterans detailed benefits for lou gehrig's disease despite the fact they hadn't been diagnosed with the illness. a high school was arrested for allegedly detonating two pipe bombs inside a high school in san mateo. the name of the suspect is withheld. beware of downloading pictures of jessica biel. the most dangerous celebrity to search in siper space. it leads to more viruses and spy

ware than any other celebrity. michael jackson's death has been ruled as a homicide. a combination of drugs meant to help jackson with i am so many knee yeah said to have caused his death. joining us is mr. posen e and joining us is rebecca rose-wood land and dr. nancy snyderman host of dr. nancy which follows this show and joined also by angela burt-murray. nancy, i don't know about awful these drugs. >> yes, you do. >> do i? >> yes. >> do i need time to admit it? >> it can kill you. >> propofol but he had taken it before and injected with it before. what do you see going on here apparently a lethal amount he claims he went away for two minutes, dr. conrad murray. >> so many bad decisions in this timeline. from the enabling part, getting these medications and the

concoction. once you get propofol, you never, i underscore never leave the patient's bedside. one of the intended consequences of propofol, you put somebody to sleep and they stop breathing. i don't care if you had to urinate for 45 seconds you cannot walk awi. >> when this drug is applied, it's surgery and in a hospital setting and not in your home. >> there is no at home use for propofol, period. >> gerald, i want to go to you. you interviewed conrad murray. what are you gleaning from this situation including your conversation with dr. murray, a houston physician, who was the last one with michael jackson who authorities had been speaking to regularly and is the one who is believed to have administered the propofol we're talking about? >> nancy is absolutely right. the timeline in the affidavit yesterday, if it is correct, then conrad murray is in a lot of trouble. one of the interesting things is they have six hours, the l.a. police, of conversations and

interrogations with conrad murray and the lawyers are adamant not a thing is going to change in their defense. the l.a. police know what their defense is and they said to me yesterday, i spoke to them. they said the time shortstop line is incorrect and out of whack. he didn't walk out of the room. that is just made up. the original conversations will show that. and so one of the interesting things here, we have an affidavit which makes a damming case against him but according to the attorneys and i haven't heard the interrogations yet but the interrogations disabuse of that notion that this timeline is right. if so they have a defense because sitting down with this fellow he is not shifty-eyed and does not move around and make a good witness if they put him on the stand. >> a quick question. when we hear that the coroner's office is saying this was a homicide, what sort of charges could conrad murray be looking at? is this manslaughter? is this attempted murder? what could he really be looking at? >> crummy malpractice? >> the malpractice is a civil act but in term of the criminal

aspect he may be looking at second-degree murder and manslaughter, a lower charge. he at least is facing 3 1/2 to 20 years if he gets charged. the issue here, though, is he did speak to the police and he spoke treely to them so that is going to be a very big aspect of the defense to weigh on. hey, look. our client had nothing to hide. and they are going to really, if that's true, if he did speak to them and did not leave the room, that is going to be a very big aspect of the defense. >> wasn't dr. murray brought in specifically to care for michael jab -- jackson? >> the promoter. >> do they have any culpability? could they have known what was being administered? >> great question. what did they know and how much did they push dr. murray? is that criminal as well and some sort of conspiracy or is that a felony charge of enabling an addict? we saw this with anna that control. these people who gave her the medicine gave her the drugs knowing she was an addict and had been attempted at rehab,

they face criminal charges as well. so the concert promoters here may also be facing some charges. >> enabling aspect is important. when iryou're a physician and walk into a patient's life you have to put pieces together. that is what a good doctor does. he have. he also passed himself off as the cardiologist. he is not. he is not board certified. no subspecialty training. he's a lousy doctor at best. >> let me push back there, nancy. >> but, carlos, one of the things here that supports it he didn't just graduate from medical school. he has been practicing for 20 years. as a matter of fact he had a clinic in houston which is interesting an area where nobody wanted to lose people and he did lose his certification for cardiolo cardiology. you mentioned the concert promoter, aeg. let me tell you something. there is real questions about

them. they have tens of millions of dollars at stake with jackson. they hire conrad murray at jackson's request and they are essentially saying to him we don't want this done in a clinic. we happen to know we have a client who what a drug addiction to propofol and the only way he gets to sleep. we want you to take him off of that addiction and wean him off of it by the time he starts in london but don't do it in a hospital because it will be all over the tabloids do it inside the house. i think the questions about aeg and liability are real ones when the trial rolls around. >> gerald, i want to come back and talk with us about this tomorrow. i think fascinating question. when we talk about this tomorrow, nancy, i want to ask you how much culpability lies with michael jackson and other stars. >> if you had died, there wouldn't be charge. there would be malpractice. >> period? you say period? >> absolutely. >> she's absolutely right. >> you know what? we have to take a break. i'm going to talk to my pruver and see if we can keep talking about it. if not, we will talk about it

tomorrow. a chilling prediction about swine flu. if you weren't worried about, time to get worried about now! dr. nancy is here to tell us and she is ready to talk about michael jackson and she will talk about swine flu. you name it. that's why you should stay tuned for this show and also watch her show after it. you're watching msnbc live. i'm carlos watson. - i just want fewer pills and relief that lasts all day. take 2 extra strength tylenol every 4 to 6 hours?!? taking 8 pills a day... and if i take it for 10 days -- that's 80 pills. just 2 aleve can last all day. perfect. choose aleve and you can be taking four times... fewer pills than extra strength tylenol. just 2 aleve have the strength to relieve arthritis pain all day. find them, share them with mastercard's priceless picks app. download it now.

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save up to thousands of dollars... on potential out-of-pocket expenses... with an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan... insured by united healthcare insurance company. call now for your free information kit... and medicare guide and find out... how you could start saving. welcome back to msnbc live. a frightening preidiction about the spread of swine flu this fall. officials say 30 to 50% could be affected and 30,000 to 90,000 could die from the h1n1 virus. first vaccine not available until october but kathleen sebelius insists they are working as fast as possible. >> we are working with manufacturers and working with five of them right now. that's good news. we have a lot of people working

on this. we asked them to fill in and finish based on what we know so far we think is the right dosage but we need to make sure the vaccine is effective before we roll it into people's arms. >> dr. nancy is back. we couldn't get enough of her and she will stay with us through the rest of our show and her own show. part of me feels good my government is preparing for a worst case scenario but part of me asks is this a scare tactic? >> it's not a scare tactic. these are the hard numbers. we have the best computer models we know how to judge from past history and how fast this is going. this is a very efficient virus and skipped around the world in a matter of weeks and so far, not a big killer. you have to look at how efficient it is and but what concerns officials is that most of the young people in this country have no recognition for this because it's a brand-new virus and it jumps species and you have no natural immunity

against it. >> for people who were born after? >> 1957. >> all of these people the last 52 years were born there is nothing in our body, nothing in our gene pool? >> you are susceptible. because you're susceptible, we expect 30% to 40% of the u.s. population to get the flu. what concerns us is some of those people will get pneumonia and complications and die and that is where the vaccination comes in. >> mothers freaking awe all over the country. what am i supposed to do to protect my children? what happens when the first child comes into school with the swine flu. do you take your children out? >> no, no. you're going to know because the schools are going to do pretty good surveillance. here is what i think you need to do. talk to your pediatrician now. i am going to to formy 15-year-old. the question is will your pediatrician be giving the swine flu shot. this may be done through school and local headlight clinics. i personally get my 15-year-old

vaccinated before school starts for the regular seasonal flu and when the swine flu comes available i will get charlie those two doses. >> as the uncle of a 5-year-old who is about to go to into ki d kindergarten when i read about this i called my sister right away. and said, i feel like you should hold him out of school the first couple of weeks. >> no, no. . don't hold them out of school. that is like self-quarantining when there is nothing to do. you go to school and get your shots and believe your federal government and the good agencies are telling us what to do. tell your 5-year-old to wash his or her hands. >> you talk about a guy with a big heart and now we bring in a guy with a tiny tiny heart. now here is how to prepare for the swine flu. logon to our website. go to twitter.msnbc.com and link to my page there. we will have a reality check coming up next on reality tv. are african-american women depicted too negatively on the

small screen? that's right. real housewives. tiny and toya, the whole deal. toure when we come back and angela burt-murray and dr. nancy and talking about it live on msnbc live coming up. ♪ crazy i'm so excited ♪ (announcer) before they give you the lowest price, some pharmacies make you work for it with memberships and fees. but not walmart. they have hundreds of generic prescriptions for just $4 for up to a 30-day supply or $10 for 90 days. save money. live better.

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welcome back to "msnbc live." now, in an era where michelle obama and oprah winfrey provide strong examples for women in this country, are reality shows like "the real housewives of atlanta" creating ununfair depiction of black women? toure joins us now. also back with angela -- >> again! one, two, three. >> you know, i misspoke. you've got a big heart. >> i know i do. >> a good man with a big heart. we'll come back with that. angela murray, we're talking about hearts, talking about black women, talking about reality tv. >> yes.

>> what do you think? >> the train has jumped the tracks. >> it has? >> there's a lot going on right now that seems to be really focused on the dysfunction and the negativity between african-american women. and you see a lot of fighting and just really stereotypical behavior. >> you think unfairly so, or that's just reality tv, it's a crazy -- >> it's a crazy train, but it's jumped the tracks. it's almost like jerry springer and maury povich have a production company and they're produce all these shows for cable networks and you're like, what's really going on here? what is the intrinsic value of this kind of programming? and it's like a car wreck. you can't look away from it, their getting great ratings, but what is the value and the ongoing impact? >> one thing about the "real housewives" franchise is the buffoonery of white women is far dominating the buffoonery of black women. even in atlanta, it's mostly the white women acting silly. a little black buffoonery. >> a little. >> a little.

>> enough to go around. >> in new jersey, the white women are going crazy. >> flipping tables. >> flipping tables and cursing in front of their kids and -- >> but you think it is the same impact? >> no, of course not. >> do you think that there's a broader -- >> what we do, as individuals, we are judged as part of the group. what they do as individuals, they're judged as individuals. >> but the challenge becomes when you have so few images of african-american women on television and you have these shows that all seem to be part of the same, cut from the same cloth, it's a very limited profile of what or who an african-american woman is or can be. >> so what do you say on tv that cuts the opposite way? that you, in fact, think is more representative or, in fact, just unegivably positive. >> there's a great show on msnbc

on 11:00 every day. >> that's right. >> 11:00 p.m. a show like "cosby is" unegive cabally positive. >> "girlfriends" is gone. >> but cooking shows. >> it's not a black show, but a very black end show. "private practice" give you some of those. >> but you would think in the obama era, when you can argue that barack obama is the most significant cultural phenomenon in the world in the last 50 years, right? that in any dimension you want to think about it, you would have thought that that would have led to a significant ripple in terms of the television programming. >> we just got here. barack, what, seven months in office now? >> how many shows have run out over the last seven to eight months? >> but it takes time to develop a tv show. >> that's your perspective? i think when people see an opportunity, they typically move a lot faster. i think that's one of the good things about american capitalism. when you see something, you get it out. >> but let's talk about this.

producers are only producing what people want to watch. these shows are getting record ratings. so what is really going on? >> reverend run's show on mtv is a fantastic depiction of a family that solves their problems talking in an intelligent way. they're not buffoons, they're not ozbournes making themselves look silly. that's an excellent sort of neil cosby sort of show. you know, everybody's dignified. they have problems, like a real family, fight, but do it in a smart way. >> that does it for me this hour. want to thank everyone who joined us on the show, editor in chief of essen"essence" magazin. dr. nancy snyderman picks up our coverage from here. nancy, haven't seen you in so long. what's coming up? >> i missed you too. we're going to talk about some of the things you talked about, including the michael jackson case, and how this new ruling with regard to his death being a homicide may change the investigation. of course, swine flu still in the headlines.

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