you. at what point does the republican party have to be a party and not a grab bag of crazy people to the right of center open to everybody. when the big tent becomes a war party, when do you draw the line and say we're not in the same party anymore? those people are outside? bill buckley said good-bye, to his credit. he said you can't be calling yourselves conservatives if you believe those things. >> look, here is the issue. if the republicans ride this wave of conservative, of sort of center right, unhappiness right now, when these two governors race this fall, if they make gains in the house and senate, you won't see any effort on their part to separate themselves from the anger we're seeing. i think they are going to embrace it. obviously, they have problems with the fringe, the kind of folks talking about hitler and bringing a gun to washington. but they won't learn any kind of lesson if they are gaining politically, chris, in the next

years ahead. >> ann, they are dancing on the edge of big danger for the country. >> i mean, i think jonathan is exactly right if it works why would they stop doing it? >> because it's un-american. it truly is, to talking about bringing down an elected government. bringing down our republic, that's not conservative. it doesn't maintain our society, that doesn't hold us together. that's insurrectionist, and if that's what conservatism is today, they have it wrong. there is a difference between being a revolutionary and a conservati conservative, there just is. >> i think you're absolutely right. >> thank you very much. jonathan martin, and ann cornfield. join us tomorrow at 5:00 and 7:00 eastern for more "hardball." right now time for "the ed show" with ed schultz. >> i'm ed schultz. 6 this is "the ed show."

good evening, americans. live from 30 rock in new york, it's "the ed show." i want to see the president get hands on the cia prisoner abuse scand scandal. in president, now is not the time to cower to those folks. we're loaded up on the story with two top judiciary committee members. join me in just a moment. plus, guess who is moving into the neighborhood? moammar gadhafi. residents in engelwood, new jersey, not happy who comes to dinner. we'll have the neighbor at the back of the hour to tell us what he really thinks. and rnc chairman michael seale lands in psycho talk again. wait until you see what he back flipped on this time.

medicare it will give you whiplash. be prepared. get your cell phones ready for tonight's text phone survey. but tonight, first, op-ed. all right, the details in this newly released cia report flat out disgusting. threatening to kill someone's children or sexually assault their mother, absolutely despicable. it doesn't matter if it was done to suspected terrorists. disregard for the law and human life, you see, folks, that's their game. that's why their terrorists. that's not our game. that's not how we're supposed to operate. america has to stand on the moral high ground and set an example. we are a beacon to the world. we are proof that democracy, a nation of law and order, works. i don't think american agents threatening to rape someone's mother is the moral high ground. attorney general eric holder has done the right thing by

launching a probe into the terrorism techniques. and it's making dick cheney's head explode. he put out this statement practically singing the virtues of torture, and putting out the old adage that president obama won't keep us safe. little fear there, huh? you know, i'll hand it to cheney. the guy never gives up at being a jerk. president obama won't keep you safe. americans have doubts. you see, that's the bat call for

the cheney-ites for folks who want to defend torture. here is what peter king said about the investigation of the justice department today. king is wondering what side the president the united states is on. he is suggesting the president might be on the side of the terrorists. that could go into psycho talk, but we'll get into that later. the republicans are the ones who are politicizing this, basically to cover themselves. so the obama administration will back off. if the republicans really cared about the cia workers, they would concern themselves with the truth. i know president obama said he wants to look forward and not backward and all that stuff, but i don't understand how he can be so hands off on this. i think he's waffling. he needs to say we're going to identify and prosecute the

people who authorize these tactics as high as it goes. condie, shooter, bush, you name it. this isn't about partisanship. this isn't about partisan attacks or settling some political score with the bush white house of yesteryear. remember the campaign trail? we have to regain the moral high ground. it's about america's moral standing in the world and to show everybody we're not a banana republic, that we do live and operate by the rule of law. get your cell phones out. i want to know what you think on this. are you satisfied with president obama's position on the cia torture probe? text "a" for yes, and "b" for no. to 622639. we'll bring result later on in the show. joining me is senator ben cardin of maryland. he chairs the judiciary subcommittee on terrorism and

homeland security. thank you for being on. i appreciate your time. >> thank you, ed. >> i would like some detail. ed cheney says it thwarted attacks, stopped mass killing of americans. can we get detail on this? that's what i'm curious about. if it did. doesn't that bring us to a crossroads. how aggressive should the attorney general be in this investigation? >> ed, let me first say that the attorney general is the lawyer for the american people, independent of the administration. it's nice to have an attorney general who understand his responsibility. eric holder is doing exactly the right thing. he allowed an investigation to go forward. it led to credible evidence that laws may have been violated. we're a country of rule of law, he's now proceeding with the type of investigation on the criminal charges that he should do. so i think he's got it right. and i think it's up to the attorney general to make those calls.

>> how do you stop at the water's edge? how do you stop with a few agents that might have been involved or middle management? why would the president at this point stop when he knows he's going to be criticized by his base if he lets cheney off the hook if he was directly involved? >> i'm not so sure the attorney general will stop with what -- the specific cases that are currently there. the fact will lead us to what we need to do. at this point, he has credible evidence that there were cia agents that went beyond the advice they were given on techniques on interrogation and he's pursuing that. we'll see where that leads. but i think he's doing it in the right way. not trying to go forward with a political witch hunt, what he's doing is letting the facts lead to us the type of investigation that is necessary to hold people accountable for perhaps violating our laws. >> senator, you used a very interesting word in that answer. you said advice.

americans would like to know were they advised or were they ordered? who gave the orders if the orders were given? >> that's an important question and i that i will come out either during the investigation or trials. it's hard to see if that will not come out. but at this point, it's clear from the material that we have that the investigation must go forward. >> and clarify for us, senator, there won't be any executive privilege stuff going on? this is full subpoena power, anybody who was involved anywhere? is that correct? >> i think the information that eric holder has, he'll be able to get the evidence presented and we'll see what the laws were violated. >> and you want him to go to the firewall on this? do i have that right tonight? >> i want him to hold people accountable who violated our laws. >> senator, i appreciate your time. thanks so much. now joining me is congressman

jerry nadler. good to have you with us. >> good to be here. >> you said this is a starting point. what does that mean? >> first of all, it's a starting point because this is simply an investigation or preliminary inquiry. this could lead to an investigation which could lead to prosecutions and indictments. so it's the first step in that step. second of all this doesn't go nearly far enough. it doesn't go nearly far enough morally or legally. the law is, and there's no discretion. the law is when torture occurs under american jurisdiction, which ch it clearly did, there must be an investigation of all people involved and if warranted a prosecution. the order the attorney general signed is silent with record to whether they will veinvestigate who deliberately misconstrued the law to get the torture done, and all other people up the

chain of command, perhaps including the vice president and specifically excludes from any inquiry, cia agent who's relied on those memos in good faith. and the point is, the law says following orders is no excuse, and they should look at that and see if they reasonably relied on those memos. >> is there a political downside with the owe became kwa administration, that they may be going too far? that this is a witch hunt? >> first of all, the fbi refused to participate in these tortures, because they said it was against the american law and ineffective. in all of the evidence we've seen in my committee, it was ineffective. the real question, was the law violated? >> are you concerned the obama white house is not aggressive enough? they want full disclosure. >> i am concerned we're not being aggressive enough. we criticized the bush administration for making

prosecutorial decisions. it's up to the attorney general, not the white house and yes, they ought not to be limiting the investigation as they are limiting it as i said before. it ought to look at the higher ups too and look at everybody involved. >> what about the bushback from the right. almost instantly, dick cheney said this stopped massive attacked. but peter king said you wonder whose side they are on this is a war against the cia. >> i think that's ridiculous it shouldn't be a war against the cia, nor is it. ith a quest to vindicate american law. if he didn't do this, he would be breaking the law. >> are you concerned that cia director leon panetta will resign over this? he has nothing to do with this. >> we don't know if there will be prosecutions or there should be prosecutions this is a preliminary inquiry. second of all, if the facts say

they should be prosecutions, they should. and & if he chooses to resign, then he should. this is a nation of laws, and no one may be above that let me say one other thing. we're well into territory already where because of the pardon of nixon after watergate and the people around him, we're getting into territory where it becomes taken for granted that high officials can violate the law and get away with it. if high officials violated the law here, they have to be prosecuted to show no one is above the law. >> are you curious if they were advised or direct orders? this is how we're going to handle terror suspects? because that's against the law? were these agents ordered to do this to these suspects? >> i don't know that, and to the extent they were, the higher ups ought to be prosecuted. but that is -- following the orders, the law specifically says is not an excuse for torture.

>> congressman nadler, good to have you on. it won't end, i tell you that. coming up, we've reached the critical moment when it comes to health care reform. the president ought to slap a bumper sticker, public option or bust on the back of the motorcade and call it a day. that up next on "the ed show" on msnbc. (announcer) gillette fusion's indicator strip fades to white when it may be time to change. fresh blade. better shave.

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welcome back. a late development in heath care. senator jeff bingaman of new mexico, on the senate finance committee, and a member of the gang of six, now declares he'll support reconciliation in the senate to get health care reform this is a big development. things are shifting during this august break. now, score at home here. of the three democrats, two are now embracing a public option, and one is willing to go reconciliation. for more, let me bring in joan watch, editor in chief of salon.com. i think this is a big development. so much is now hinging on what the senate finance committee does. this gang of six. you've got a couple of democrats okay with public option, at least that's what max back us said the other day. have you jeff bingaman, saying if we have to go reconciliation, i'm on the bandwagon this makes kent conrad the fly in the

ointment in this whole deal, doesn't it? >> yeah, all eyes on kent conrad right now. and i don't know what to expect. he's been a staunch defender of this nonprofit co-op idea, which i think all of us know probably won't work, and also won't get republican support. so it's a tough position for him to be in, and i think we're seeing president obama's strategy, maybe begin to work. i know you and i have been critical of him for not laying out what he wants and defending and and saying i'm for the public option, get with me. i'd be happy to be wrong about that, with this effort to let the gang of six work its way through this. we'll see. >> what's your read on one of the gang of six tasked with the migts of coming up with a bipartisan agreement. one of the gang of six says if we have to go reckon saleiation in the senate, i'm okay with that to get reform done? >> i think the tide has turned a little bit.

we still have crazy people at town halls talksing about guns, but they are starting to hear from a liberal constituency and a more budget-minded constituency, saying that the public option makes sense because it brings down costs. i think they were caught flat footed with the mobilization of the town halls. it was predictable. we knew the industry was going to fight back. but now we're seeing more organizing on the left, and it's paying off. >> do you think that the base is going to dwindle away from the president if down the stretch he doesn't push hard and get a public option to compete against the private sector? will it -- will it really weed off his base? what do you think? >> i really think it will. many, many -- a majority of those who voted for him last year and the people who raised money, knocked on doors, really thought he was about fundamental change, and this is fundamental

health care change. nothing else will deliver it. so i think it's very risky for him and i think they are starting to recognize that. which i'm very happy about that. >> i'm interested in seeing how maxine water held her town hall meeting. she told the crowd in speaking to the president, we've got your back. >> right. >> not only are the progressive democrats saying, mr. president, we want you to do this, we have to have "a," "b," and "c" in this, but we've got your back. what is your interpretation for those who oppose the public option? >> i think they have a tiny bit of fear. think those who support it are starting to organize, and the president, you know, it cuts both ways. we've either got your back or we don't if you sell us out. so i don't know if anybody in the industry is quaking in their boots yet, ed. but there is reason to believe that the base has found its

voice. has found a way of transmitting it's unhappiness and we'll have a better outcome as a result of that. we'll see. >> do you think the president will make a big play between labor day and the 15th of september? a speech to the nation, an oval office speech or something that is deemed to be a very special message to the american people to close the deal? >> i think he's going to have to. i really do because this is going to lay out there with more misinformation. i think in the end, ed, he's got to say what he supports. he's got to fight for it. if he loses, god forbid, he learns something, we all learn something, and we move on. to say ultimately i'm going to wishy washy out and sign whatever they give me, because some reform is better than nothing, is a terrible message. i don't expect him to do that, but you know me, i'm an optimist. >> thank you for your time tonight, joan. >> you bet. coming up, rnc chairman

michael steele. he just can't seem to make up his mind when it comes to medicare. first he's for it, then he's against it, and, folks this is all in one day. you know where it's going. "psycho talk" next on "the ed show." yself as a ringtone ♪ ♪ who knew the store would go and check my credit score ♪ ♪ now all they let me have is this dinosaur ♪ ♪ hello hello hello can anybody hear me? ♪ ♪ i know i know i know i shoulda gone to ♪ ♪ free credit report dot com! ♪ that's where i shoulda gone! coulda got my knowledge on! ♪ ♪ vo: free credit score and report with enrollment in triple advantage. that can take so much out of you. i feel like i have to wind myself up just to gt out of bed. then...well... i have to keep winding myself up to deal with the sadness, the loss of interest,

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ght on. yeah, vroom-vroom! sounds like you ran a 500. more like a 900 v-twin. excuse me. well, you're excused. the right insurance for your ride. w, that's progressive. call or click today. welcome back to "the ed show." tonight, psycho talk. republican national committee

chairman, michael steele, back at it again. he can't figure out how he feels about medicare. yesterday, while he was promoting the rnc's senior health care bill of rights which is only about had 4 years late for their side, and he's calling for protecting medicare, steele said this. >> we want to make sure we're not cutting the medicare program. >> okay. i got it. with him so far. >> medicare should be protected. and under the bills before the congress right now, they are going to be protected. but this morning, steele did a 180. >> and the reality of it is that, you know, this single payer program known as medicare is a very good example of what we should not have happen with all of our health care. talking about taking our senior population and expanding it to the broader population. government cannot run a health care system. >> they are always accurate, aren't they? let me get this straight.

yesterday, mr. steele, you said medicare should be protected. today you sayith not good enough. so it's okay for seniors to rely on a government- run system, but not good enough for the rest of us. you may want to rethink how you're presenting this again, and let me point out, the vast majority of seniors are satisfied with medicare. michael steele has proved time and time again he's out of touch with meshamericans, and he's flip-flopping. that's some hypocritical psycho talk. and the dumber than joe the plumber talk on health care is starting to sic in with americans. we'll go inside the numbers with a major myth buster, next. and moammar gadhafi, meet your new neighbor, here with me, next. pommes frites

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welcome back. health care under siege. the lion machine. the health care lobby is killing the public option, or is it? righty talker are spreading lies and misinformation, and it's sinking in with americans. take a look at these numbers from a new poll commissioned by indiana university. more than half republicans believe in death panels for the elderly. 2/3 believe that a public plan would cover all illegal immigrants. and roughly 3/4 of them believe it will lead to rationing and taxpayer funded abortion. wow. many republican voters are hearing this garbage straight from elected lawmakers, so maybe those numbers aren't a surprise. the really alarming numbers are with the public option. a majority of americans don't believe in the basic principle of having a public plan. that it would lower costs for

everyone. 51% believe it would increase health care costs. 54% say it would drive up the cost of private insurance premiums. and 56% believe the united states cannot afford to pay for it. joining me now is dr. aaron carroll, the director of indiana university center for health policy research. and also the author of "don't swallow your gum: myths, half truths and outright lies about your body and health." i appreciate your time. what jumps out at you at this poll? i know it's extensive research on the university's part. what jumps out at you? what really surprises you? >> it's not necessarily how many republicans believe these things, but how many people overall. more than half of americans believe so many of these myths, it's really quite clear the administration and congress aren't getting the message out of what health care reform is really going to do. >> can we come to the conclusion that independents will decide

the health care debate in this country? are they the key sector to watch? >> there are only so many republicans and democrats and looking at the how many believe these myths, they are really someone that the administration and congress has to target, if they are going to turn this around. >> how would the administration turn this around? these are big numbers. would you say that? would you agree these are big numbers to defeat at this point? >> i think they are big numbers. but numbers have changed over time. i don't thinkith lost yet, and with a good message and a big speech or a really concerted effort to be consistent with messaging, they could still turn this around. >> 58% believe taxpayer funded abortions will take place in this country. what was the question? was it just a direct question in this survey? >> it was. it basically said if the reform passed, would health care reform pay for abortions?

very nonjudgmental one way or another. just if they believed the reforms in the bill would cover abortions and people do. >> dr. carroll, i know have you done a lot of surveys before at indiana university. if you could judge how anxious people were to talk about this, how eager they were, how willing to participate and how focused on the issue, give us a sense? >> people are really interested in talking about these things, and they are very focal either for or against. we had very few people who were noncommittal one way or another in all of the questions. everyone had an opinion. >> everybody had an opinion. that's pretty amazing stuff. dr. aaron carroll, i appreciate your time on "the ed show." thank you very much. let's bring in laura flanders, the author of "blue grit" and sam stine of the huffington post, and republican strategist ron christie is with us tonight. laura, we'll start with you the

independents, those who were sitting on the fence that ended up voting for president obama, where are they right now? how troubling is this survey? >> i don't know, the thuggery out there, remember, those independents are the people that came on board with barack obama when he talked about his mother. he talked about people dying because our health care system is driven by profit as a priority rather than people. that's what he needs to go back to. if he does that he'll have them back in his camp again. >> ron christie, have you seen anything like this in your political career, that you have to admit, ron, that there are a lot of things being spewed out there that simply are not true, and yet so many people are believing what is being broadcast and the conservative, you know, torpedos that are in the water constantly at the obama administration. what would you compare this to? >> the only thing i can compare

this to, where we were in the middle part of the 1990s, when the republicans were trying to slow the rate of medicare when you heard the republican party didn't care about the elderly. let's stick to what we do know, ed. you look at the numbers where it says 56% of the american people say it doesn't think we can afford this. and we have seen the four bills going to the congress, going to cost at least $1 trillion, and the other thing i might say, had you the mid session budget review that came out today, that says the size of the deficit will increase by $2 trillion. the american people, 56% recognize that the government is spending an awful lot of money can we afford it at this time? >> what about it, sam stine? >> what about ron's point? it is a little bit of a disingenuous argument.

the president pledged not to raise taxes, but this will cost $1 trillion. the president insisted he doesn't want to raise taxed on families that make under $250,000. a point i want to make there, is no penalty for throwing out disinformation. this is the same senator, chuck grassley, insisted that the government is going to pull the plug on grandma and equivocated on sunday. pushing it again there is no penalty for throwingous mistruths, and i think that's what you are seeing here. >> the fact of the matter is, the congressional budget office, nonpartisan, says that the bilds going to the congress right now, the president has endorsed, would cost over $1 trillion. >> you don't raise the taxes, though, ron. >> okay, ed. ed. ed. let's take the taxes out. let's stick specifically on the

numbers it's a point in fact that it will cost $1 trillion. >> we're talking about a priority and what the american people want. iraq cost $1 trillion. nobody threw the red flag up on that over on the conservative side. >> let's start at the beginning joan walsh. i really believe the tide is shifting in favor of those who want reform, voted for reform, worked for reform and are shocked that there are very ritchie let'ses rich elites that would shuck this once nin a lifetime chance for reform because people might touch their profits. they are getting their representatives to pledge that they will not vote for anything that doesn't have a public option. >> sam stine, i want to approach you on these numbers from indiana university, which are very accurate. they've done and now have a history over the years of being accurate in their surveys. what does the obama white house have to do right now to combat

these lies? i mean, the president being on vacati vacation -- everybody needs their time off. what do they have to do to turn the thoughts on death panels around, covering illegal immigran immigrants. rationed care. and taxpayer funded abortions. what about all of that? >> if there was a solution, i think they would be deploying it. this is what i'm getting at there is no penalty for a sarah palin or chuck grassley to get in there and say this bill will plug on grandma. as much shame as they get in the med why for telling mistruths, that's it. and they in turn convince the public -- 50% of people in the indiana university survey believe in death panels and that has been debunked to no end. >> let's bring in the people who know their families are hurting. >> personal stories? >> i want you to bring in the

personal stories. let's have them at the table alongside politician who's are just scoring points by hitting on change. >> the personal stories only works to a certain extent. >> personal stories are one thing. i would like to hear lawmakers debunk this. if all of this is a lie and not true, let's look at it it's a true fact that people in this country illegally go to emergency rooms and receive medical care. >> but they also get a bill and they are expected to pay and we don't deny anybody in this country, but that doesn't mean they won't get a bill when they leave. ron, i have to leave with you on this segment it would be good if the rnc chairman would send a clear mess on where he is on medicare. these are two totally different messages that the republicans are sending out. transfer would be great for the public to hear straight talk from the president and congress of the united states.

they want to cut millions in medicare. rationed care is coming. >> have you denial of coverage now. denial of claims being paid out. that's rationing. insurance companies do it all the time. i have to run. i'm up against the clock. after giving the lockerbie bomber a hero's welcome, it shouldn't surprise moammar gadhafi that some of us in the u.s. aren't thrilled that he's setting up camp. a famous rabbi, one of his future neighbors, sounds off. that, next. (marco andretti) i race to win. i know when it's the perfect time to change my tires. when it comes to shaving i know en to change my blade. (announcer) gillette fusion's indicator strip fades to white

when it may be time to change. fresh blade. better shave. still not too late to let us know what you think. are you satisfied with president obama's position on the torture probe? resu results, coming up.

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in tonight's playbook, libyan leader moammar gadhafi is coming to the united states had in a few weeks to address the u.n. general assembly. u.s./libyan relations have plummeted after the controversial relet's of the lookerby bomber. now a controversy is brewing over where gadhafi is going to stay. first, he wanted to camp out at central park. this didn't go over with new york authorities. now it looks like he will pitch his tent across the river in engelwood, new jersey, on the grounds of a libyan owned estate, which just happens to be next door to rabbi schmuli, host of "shalom in the home."

thank you for being with us. what's wrong with this? >> imagine if you were the neighbor and he put on a giant party for timothy mcveigh. i better protect my family from him. >> as the neighborhood feels about it. >> all of us who watched this stomach turning spectacle of the lockerbie bomber being lauded in tripoli. we have seen gadhafi's true colors. we want eveere hoping that ther this amel yore ration. >> what do you want the president to do about this? deny the visa? this would play in the wheel house into the secretary of state hillary clinton. >> this is a leader of the free world, and this is a terrorist. there has to be some price that gadhafi pays for the spectacle he puts on.

would anyone want a small army of libyan intelligence officials being right next door to them? they cut down my trees because they want to peer into my property -- i'm a peace loving guy. i'm a property loving guy. they cut down trees on your property that you pay taxes on? >> that's correct. and they don't pay any taxes. >> how do they get away with that? where is the governor? >> i'm going to have to sue them to extract every last penny so libyan money is put toward peaceful things like planting trees. >> how long has this been planned? they have been working on this estate for some time. >> this is a dilapidated estate that hasn't been done anything on ten years. now there is a millions and millions much dollars, and there an army to get this ready. >> can they limit his travel in the united states? >> i understand it's the state

department that has to do that. >> you want hillary clinton to make a move on this and deny his visa? >> i like hillary clinton. if she wants dpgadhafi come to e country, let him pitch his tent in front of her property. >> how do you feel about the scottish government doing this? are you saying all scots coming to the united states? >> i may limit one or two of my whiskey glasses because i think the scottish government needs to pay a price. is this compassionate, the 270 families have have relive this horror? >> i have to play devil's advocate. what about benjamin then netany? >> one is a democratically elected leader in a country where arabs have a right to vote. the other is a dictator for almost 40 years, and his regime

is kept aloft on a sea of oil and i have seen the way they spend money for him to come three days to new jersey. if netanyahu tried to do that, he would be in jail. >> are protests in the neighborhood? >> sunday at 11:00 a.m. i shouldn't have to fight this alone. >> you said the neighborhood was against this? >> i hope that gadhafi gets the message if you want to celebrate murderers, don't come to america. >> do you expect a response from the president? because he was against the release? >> he's a committed family man, and i'm sure he understand i'm raising nine children in that home. and i don't need state of the art surveillance monitoring me. i would rather have dinner with my family in peace. >> shooter came out of his

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welcome back to "the ed show." american intelligence agents working in overseas prisons during the bush administration used tactics like choking a detainee to the point of passing out. making look like a hooded he can

takenee had been shot in the next cell. threatening to kill a detainee's children and family. folks, this is not american. this is thuggery. these are thug tactics. what i want to know is who authorized this? you mean to tell me these cia-trained agents just decided on the whim they were just going to go out and do this? and there's just a few bad apples that got caught in the wrong deal? let's bring back our panel tonight. ron, let's start with you. opening commentary tonight about the united states getting the moral high ground, because there was a lot of conversation about this in the runup to the election. can you defend some of the things that are in that point and also the fact that you work for dick cheney and that he comes out and almost celebrates torture, saying we should owe these people a debt of gratitude for what they did?

i want your response to that. >> my response is that dick cheney is absolutely right. what he said from the get go, if we were able to redact certain portions of this report, that the brave men and women saved americans' lives. you mentioned thuggery. you mentioned there was an individual who choked a detainee. that individual later died. you know what, ed? that individual was not a member of the cia. it was a cia contractor. they were prosecuted and convicted. >> so that makes it okay? >> no, it doesn't make it okay, ed. >> hold on a second. representing -- representing the united states of america, whether you're an independent contract contractor, the buck has to stop on somebody's desk and you're telling me that dick cheney is correct in defending these types of tactics that clearly break the international law. is that what i'm hearing? >> the vice president of the united states says the lawful interrogation techniques that were used, safely, i might add,

allowed information to be gathered and gained and we were able to arrest members of al qaeda. this individual who was a contractor was prosecuted and convicted for breaking the law, and he should sit in jail for breaking the law. let's not make this a broader issue. >> wait a minute. who gave the order to do this? laura, where does this go for the obama administration? >> i'm with you, ed. this redacted report doesn't prove what our friend said. even if it did, every torturer in the world believes that they were doing it for a good purpose if we stoop to that level, we are no better than the rest. for the obama administration, this presents a big challenge, ed. it's great that holder declared there will be an investigation, but the audacity of compromise is not what people voted for, and the aclu is calling this plan anemic. we have been blood soless so lo

anemic looks good. we don't need compromise, and we need to go to the top. >> is there a backlash coming to the democrats and the obama administration if they are perceived to go too far in the eyes of the american public. how do they gauge how much the public want to know about this? >> i think obama has handled this quite astutely. he basically says he doesn't want any part of this. he would rather look forward than backward. the justice department is independent of the white house and they can pursue investigations where they find illegalities occurring. as to what ron said, the cia inspector general did not prove cheney right. cheney said enhanced interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding were needed to produce intelligence that preempted future terrorist attacks. the c ifrp a report was very vague on whether enhanced interrogation techniques produced intelligence. they said detainees provided intelligence, but they were

vague about waterboarding. i think cheney was proven wrong by this. an embarrassment to vice president cheney. as for your question, obama will be totally hands off on this. let it go on the justice department which has the special prosecutor, and that's the way that the white house has to approach it. >> ron christie, why the quick reaction from those in congress like peter king suggests that the president sides with the terrorists on this. whose side are they on? are we beyond the age of full disclosure? i mean, is -- is that where we are? where the conservatives are, that he with have to protect all of these documents that may reveal exactly what happened? what's your position on that ron? >> i think what we saw with attorney general eric holder's decision, that's more in line with what the terrorist would like to see as opposed to law-abiding american people. let's not get too far away from 9/11. this is not a law