i think that's what infused that moment last year when he made the endorsement.

that's what infused it with such pow power. i think just in your narrative we ought to know that it was ted kennedy who played such an important role in the '60s on civil rights legislation, voting rights being one of them, and you have to wonder without those advances, would that moment have been possible november 4th? so there was a sense -- there was a very, very strong sense of history in the room when senator kennedy made that endorsement and i think he was aware if you go back and listen to his speech from that day it was a very deliberate reference to history and the passing of the torch. and anybody who was there could not have helped but be moved by

it and anyone who has lived through this era, the kennedy era, could see that continuum. i think the president and senator obama was humbled by that because no one wants to claim that mantle. it's an exalted mantle, and you have to earn it. but i think he was really humbled by the senator's words that day and challenged to live up to it. >> all right. david axelrod, thank you so much for calling in this morning. we really do appreciate it. good talking to you. savannah, thank you for setting that interview up. you know, willie, it's kind of interesting when mika's here she e-mails and he calls in. savannah is in here. we e-mail axelrod all the time. >> he doesn't like you guys. >> i'm in the vineyard for the next couple of months, if this is willie or joe. savannah is working the angles over here. keep that up. >> i was checking my horoscope.

>> we're at the top of the hour. a special edition of "morning joe." we have mike barnicle, chris matthews, savannah guthrie. ted kennedy passed away last night and we've been remembering him for an hour this morning. he is, as david axelrod said, mike barnicle, the greatest, i suppose most prolific senator when it comes to legislation in the history of this republic. >> i don't think there's any doubt about that. chris matthews mentioned earlier all of the things he has been responsible for big and small. as time goes on and as pieces are written and as people remember, there will be elements of nearly everyone's life in this country that you can point to and in some ways say legislation that he wrote in 1966 or 1992 impacted help your

child's life, helped the school that your child attends, helped provide more nurses in the hospital where your grandmother went when she was ill. so the scope, the sweep of his legislative life has been enormous. i find at least myself in these few hours since his passing was announced that my mind wanders to the personal more than the political. and i can see him walking out on the dock at the hyannis port yacht club to go out to his boat and i can hear the infectious laugh that david actixelrod referred to, the joy that he took in just life. never mind the joy he took in politics. just the joy he took in his life. and while david was speaking, you would have to see ted kennedy in the summer in hyannis port with his extended family. he was father to many.

all of his nieces and nephews. to see all of them boarding the little boat that would take them out to his sailboat, the maya. and it would be impossible not to smile when you were with him. it would be impossible not to have a good time when you were with him. and of all the roles he would play in life, senator, iconic political figure, father, husband to vickie i think was the one that at the end of his life he was most content with and most proud of. >> and there did, for anybody who knew ted kennedy personally, they would all tell you that there was a joy about him and through all the tragedy we have a lot of people lined up to talk about this legendary senator, pat buchanan's in washington. we're going to be going to david gregory soon, also anne thompson's in hyannis port.

norah o'donnell's with us. chris matthews is here. and presidential historian douglas brinkley has been on the phone for some time. douglas, get your impressions and then go to chris. doug, what are your thoughts this morning? >> just from listening to mike barnicle he talked about the personal very well. i add to that the fact having dogs with him and playing chasm all the time and going to see ted kennedy you always felt like you were going to see a kind of person who was so nice to young people, people upwards in their careers or had questions. i'm impressed historically about the senate office. it became during the 1960s and '70s protest period in washington, d.c., kind of the place if you got tear gassed, he'd go to his office to get water and recoup. he had a high tolerance for dissent and allowing people, particularly that were protesting vietnam, veterans

back from vietnam that had a beef with the way the war was going, to actually use his office as a living room at times. he did it so much it would frighten guards that were guarding the capitol, the hodgepodge band of people who would come and get an audience with him. it points to the fact he cares. ted kennedy cared about real people and for whatever mechanisms in his life kicked in, he somehow built the strength out 0 of the tragedy. losing first brother joe and the next two brothers due to assassination and feeling this kind of burden that had been placed on him to be a patriarch of a family -- he bent sometimes under that pressure but most of the time he seemed to rise to the occasion and started understanding if you do enough good deeds in life it will overwhelm whatever mistakes you

made and there truly are people out there that have had lives saved by ted kennedy due to his legislative cunning. his ability to pass -- to protect medical legislation, to help poor people, the ability to work for the environment. to increase lifestyle for people with minimum wage. we've had big senators dirksen, lyndon johnson, some great senators in recent annals of american history. there's not such a thing as lodge republicans anymore. when we say kennedy democrats, people mean ted kennedy democrats. bobby brought african-americans and hispanics into a constituency not just for the

democrats but as kennedy democrats. >> thank you for calling in. let's set the scene now in hyannis port. we have nbc's anne thompson. what can you it tell us? >> reporter: joe, as dawn breaks over hyannis port, this village of 130 homes has seen many of its streets blocked off. the police have set up barricades to keep not only the media but also the curious at bay. as the family mourns inside the compound, this is where senator kennedy died late last night. the family in a statement said we have lost the irreplaceable center of our family, and i think that is also true for this village. he was very much a part of the life of this village. you would see him driving around in his convertible. you'd see him with sonny and slash, his two portuguese water

dogs. you'd see him going down to the pier to his maya, something he enjoyed immensely, something that gave him great pleasure and solace throughout the arc of his life. at this hour we have no word on funeral plans. those are expected to be announced either later today or tomorrow. joe? >> thank you so much, anne thompson in hyannis port. we will continue coming back to you to get updates. let's go right now to moderator of "meet the press" david gregory. david, give us your thoughts this morning on the passing of a man that many people over the past hour have agreed was the most significant senator in terms of legislation passed in the history of the united states. >> absolutely, joe. i guess what i thought about this morning is also the role of family patriarch and how it fell

to senator kennedy, to the voice of sorrow within the family on so many tragedies. he, of course, was the one to really give voice to that sorrow, to give a eulogy for his brother, bobby, for jacqueline kennedy onassis in 1994 and for his nephew, john, of course. and in the associated press covering washington and capitol hill, it was ted kennedy, the first kennedy of his generation to, in fact, comb gray hair and he was the life that was so full of accomplishment and a long relative to his brothers and yet still cut short by this disease. >> david, what's your take on how this passing will affect the health care debate? >> it's interesting. on the program sunday i asked senator hatch the sense of loss that was felt by kennedy not

being there. he was cryptic in his reply saying, look, ted kennedy would have been on the phone to me saying let's get this done. senator hatch has walked away from the negotiations on the senate finance committee which i think is a small example of just how powerful and how huge that void is in this debate. i've talked to other allies who says kennedy's voice and absence has been felt in the course of this debate. ted kennedy, if he was known for anything in the senate, it was that legislative skill. he knew how to get things done. he would want to get bills passed even if they were incomplete, even if they were imperfect and try to fix it later. i remember reading about the debacle of '93 and '94 and health care reform and him coming back to president clinton in 1994 after the midterm race and saying, look, we can still come back at health care, break it up a bit, get it more piece

meal. bit by bit. he took health care on first in 196 6. so he's been at it a long time. i think that presence is huge and i think in terms of strategy, the ability to deliver some kind of grand bargain is something kennedy would have been looked to to provide. >> all right. "meet the press'" david gregory, we appreciate it. i was listening, barnicle, to doug brinkley talk about how during the anti-war protests people would be tear gassed and the protesters would run and they would get water and wipe themselves down. i was thinking how lucky we are to have the guy on the other side of that debate that whenever police officers ran out of tear gas, they would go to pat buchanan's office and he would load it for him. more canisters, pat, right? improve their aim a bit. >> that's right. >> so, buchanan, with that warm

introduction -- >> got what they deserved, joe. >> let's not refight 1968, okay? so, pat, we've been at this now for about an hour, hour and a half, but there are a lot of people just waking up and just learning ted kennedy has passed away. give us your impression of ted kennedy and the impact he had on this country and what your thoughts are this morning. >> well, be his impact was extraordinary. you mentioned legislation and people have forgotten ted kennedy was floor manager of the 1965 immigration bill which has changeded the character of the united states of america forever. he was an extraordinary legislator. he would work with other people because despite his partisanship he has that big, booming laugh. he was well liked. tremendously well liked. let me tell you an anecdote. as a member of the kennedy

extended family who worked in the council office of the white house under george w. bush and he had to go up to the hill and he took a notification of people that were going to be appointed to the federal appellate court. and he went into one democratic senator's office and the senator threw him out saying another right winger, huh? and then he went to kennedy's office to inform him and senator kennedy said, come on in. come on in. have you seen my office? and he took this kid up and he showed him pictures of himself and jack and himself and bobby and all these presidents he was with. and this kid came back, young man came back to the white house, walking on air because of teddy kennedy's personal graciousness of a liberal democratic senator who was being informed that a conservative was being named to an appellate court. it was that kind of kennedy's personal touch i think that made him so liked and is what you're going to hear about and we're

going to hear about and mike barnicle can go into it in great, great depth. we'll be hearing about this all day. he was a very gracious man, fierce partisan, but a very gracious man. >> i think it's important pat be here today. it's always important to have pat here but pat symbolizes a lot of what we've been talking about, joe. the fact that for many, many years until pat started hanging around with us, he lived on the right-hand side of the dial. and senator kennedy obviously whether you want to call him a progressive or a liberal, bad word today in american politics, the two of them were neighbors at one point when senator kennedy lived in mclean. liked him and admired him in a certain way, is that not true, patrick j. buchanan? >> really, again, i was on "meet the press" one time when tim was running the show and i guess i

was on the opening segment. maybe it was one of those campaigns. i came off and senator kennedy was coming on after me. he jumps up and says, hey, pat, have you met vickie? and i said hello to his wife and everything. and i looked and there's this great big dog in the studio teddy kennedy had brought with him. on the personal level he was a very pleasant guy. he was always friendly. he would kid me, the big booming laugh about the right winger and just very, very friendly. a very likeable man. >> chris, you were at the capitol as a cop. you worked at the capitol for tip o'neill. >> all the irish jobs be. . >> exactly. you worked at the capitol at the time where democrats and republic yabs could disagree with each other and go golf on

the weekend, disagree with each other and have drinks together at the end of the day. disagree with each other and still sit down and have dinner with each other's family at night. >> right. >> ted kennedy, i think about all the hate speeches out there during this health care debate and then i look at ted kennedy, be a guy who, again, is as fierce of a partisan as you could be, but a guy who seemed incapable of hatred. what have we lost with the passing of this man and a period of time when democrats and republicans could disagree passionately but still like each other? >> well, let's talk about guns for a minute because there's been a lot of talk about people bringing guns to the meeting with president and how inappropriate some of us think that is not because of right but the appropriateness in history. i remember when i first got out

of the peace corps i would go to hearings and watch ted kennedy preside or sit at the committee desks and this is not many months after his brother had been killed, bobby. there was no doubt in my mind that he saw everybody coming into that room. and his eye was on every person who came in the back door of that committee hearing room. mike knows this. i can tell this story now. every time that ted kennedy walked in the capital from his office to the capitol across constitution avenue for many years he would take different routes all the time to try to avoid anybody who might be following him. he didn't have security. he operated on his own so he had to defend his own life for all these 40-some years. he had to be careful and he had to be somewhat unpredictable in the way he moved around and yet here's a story that i think

trumps a lot of them. g. gordon liddy was in prison for hard time because, of course, he wouldn't talk unlike john dean. he wouldn't talk about what role he played and i think pat respects that for what his role in watergate, in the break-in, and yet when he was in prison and g. gordon told me this story, his daughter was graduating from a catholic girl's school in washington. a very nice school, mind you. and teddy had a daughter graduating. and there is this poor daughter of g. gordon liddy, her father is in prison, he's a felon and a bad guy in a catholic school who looked down on a watergate burglar and that's her dad and he's in prison with a lot of bad people. and here she is having to stand up and receive her diploma with all these pretty nice girls from pretty nice families and everything looks great except she has this burden to carry. guess who comes over to her?

ted. and said don't feel bad. you'll get through this. your dad's proud of you. amazing stuff. >> there's no one who has been in public life in the history of this country who knew and lived with the consequences of what hate can engender more so than edward kennedy, no one. the one conversation i had with him about whether senator obama would run for president, he lingered around the question of personal safety. he wanted him to run. he hoped he would run but he was truly worried about senator obama's personal safety. as he should be. we all should be. >> david gregory, would you like to jump in here? >> yeah, i was just listening to

this conversation. also you recall some of the initial attempts to get senator kennedy to run for president before 1980 and how -- and mike knows this well, this became a really intense family conversation that really centered around his kids and their fears about him running for office because they were afraid he could get shot. when he was campaigning, how he'd call. patrick would travel with him a fair amount but he'd call other kids and say everything went okay today object the campaign trail. so there was, as mike said, living with the consequences of hate but also that own fear for his own life in public life. as chris mentioned, too, doing it on his own but knowing that his family carried such a heavy burden as well thinking about him in that role. >> and we are again, people are waking up this morning and just tuning in it's 6:22 on the east coast. ted kennedy has passed away.

passed away in the night after a long battle with cancer. the flag, of course, flags are flying at half-staff at the capitol. a capitol that ted kennedy reigned over for so long and had such a remarkable impact whether you were a conservative historian or a liberal historian or somewhere in between. there is no debate as to ted kennedy's remarkable impact on this country, on this republic. he was, in terms of legislation, in terms of influence, and we've been hearing it this morning and we will be hearing it and our children will be reading it in history books, the most effective senator in the history of the country. for people waking up this morning, savannah guthrie, white house correspondent, we talked to david axelrod earlier. tell us of the obamas and their

reaction. >> they're vacationing on mort ye martha's vineyard. he was woken up at 2:00 a.m. i think we'll hear from the president. i think he'll come and make an on-camera statement later this morning. >> he was trying to get over to martha's vineyard -- i mean hyannis port. >> there was talk he may visit the cape. i think if it was possible, he would have done so but it was going to be a game time decision. here's the part that really stands out to me. he said an important chapter in our history has come to an end. he picked up the torch of fallen brothers and became the greatest united states senator of our time. we've talked about how senator kennedy had an impact on this president at a key moment in his

campaign endorsing him, a moment all of us remember and changing the race. >> a number of people join the conversation. norah o'donnell, good morning. tell us what senator kennedy's passing may mean in the future of health care? >> reporter: it's a big blow. i don't know of any other democratic senator who had so many friends, senator orrin hatch, of course, one of his best friends. republican senators whose children died or had great tragedies it was ted kennedy the first person on the phone with them and that's why we heard this weekend senator john mccain and orrin hatch saying it's making a difference he's not around to help in this health care debate. i just happened to be looking on senator kennedy's website which is already noting, of course, his passing with that very famous quote for all those whose care has been our concern, the

hope still lives and the dream shall never die. and one of the reasons i went on his website this morning is because the legislative accomplishments he's achieved in nearly half a century in the senate, the only other senators who have served longer are bobby byrd and strom thurmond and when he learned teddy kennedy had brain cancer, he wept openly on the senate floor. that's how significant both his personal and professional accomplishments have been and everything from s-chip, the plan who helps ensure 11 million poor children across the country, the americans with disabilities act, title 9, the martin luther king holiday, cobra, all these amazing pieces of legislation that have been passed. the ones you know the name of, ted kennedy was certainly involved in those. i think i was most struck that

in 2002, of course, he voted against the iraq war. one of the few senators to do that, and he noted that was the best vote i've made in my 44 years in the united states senate which is striking to think about given the votes he'd take ebb in the senate on all of those major pieces of legislation, civil rights on down to health care. to note that about the iraq war and then finally i know there was talk about certainly his endorsement of barack obama. i remember being there. i think chris was there, too, here in washington at that event where kennedy endorsed barack obama and that was a moment in terms of passing on the kennedy legacy not just in terms of a moment for barack obama but i also think for the kennedy family because a lot of the reporting i've done certainly when i first was on capitol hill was about patrick kennedy and ca carrying on that legacy, who would sort of carry on the kennedy torch.

and his son, patrick, is currently the only one in elective office. remember they were hoping for john jr. certainly to be in elected office. it has been tragic certainly for the kennedys. >> norah o'donnell, thanks so much. we'll check back with you throughout the morning. let me throw it over to chris and joe, how is it that one mab -- if we agree he was one of the most effective two or three senators ever, how is it that one man could be so effective? what was he doing no other senator could do? what is it about ted kennedy? >> i have to 0 say and i think everybody around this table and pat buchanan, anybody who has been around politicians long enough know that ted kennedy was different from most sons of leaders that got into politics. a lot of these guys come in and obviously with a silver spoon in their mouth and they don't have the graciousness that kennedy

h has. a lot of them rbt gracious at all. they're arrogant. if you help them they think, well, you're doing -- they're doing you a favor. what made ted kennedy so special is the fact that he remained gracious. he remained gracious to the young republican kid coming over to capitol hill. he remained gracious to people who disagreed with him, even people who attacked him. he did keep his eye on the ball as a senator. there are two tracks and i want to talk to you first about this, chris, and then mike barnicle. there's two tracks of the public figure takes and i figured this out after a year or two. i was obviously in '95 and '96 very concerned on this libertarian small government guy and i would go on shows like

yours and punch in. then there's the other side. the constituent services side, the side that people still come up to me at an airport, thanking me help get their grandmother out of venezuela to come home for a funeral or people still come up to me and thank me for all these things that you do for a constituent that you forget about because you move on to the next great big ideological battle. but they don't forget. that's their life you affected. i did it for a couple of years. ted kennedy did that for decades. there was this i had lonlcal side to ted kennedy the world saw but then there was the other side. if you had a problem, he wanted to help you out and he threw his

life into it. >> i think that explains his durability all these years in massachusetts because although his brothers' credibility was a big part of his getting in there, clearly that's why he was there. this concern for massachusetts was always there. i'm always in awe of people like him. i mean honestly. most people think the whole universe is around them and it's all an interesting show going on and they're the star of it. ted kennedy was able to focus on the lives and the world people live in. when somebody comes to you with a problem, it's the biggest thing in the world to them or they wouldn't come to you with it, to come to a u.s. senator, to come to a congressman. when they come to you with that plea, it's their world. you've had experience, that ability to know that as you minister your office, administer

your office, people aren't interested in what's going on in cuba or africa. they're worried about their toothache or whatever it is, or their kids are trying to get out of jail. >> the social security check that's held up. >> the disability. >> they can't get the treatment they need at a v.a. clinic, the fact the irs has been auditing them for months. you can pick up the phone and say, hey, listen, you have this case. you've been doing this for three or four years now. resolve it. just look into this. i think these people may be harassing. check into it and let me know. a phone call like that can change a person's life. ted kennedy did that for decades. he was smart enough to know if somebody came to him, mike, and said i need you to help me here. i want to help you but if i do it publicly, i'll get killed. let me go to hatch.

i'll go to orrin. he'll help you out. >> i think what you and chris are walking about can be explained in rather simple terms. simple terms, i understand, don't work today with talk radio and all that stuff but being hurt, being vulnerable is not an ideology. it's a human condition. and no one understood better what it's like to be hurt and what it's like to be vulnerable and the frailty of life than ted kennedy. and he was able to grapple with this among voters and among friends all of his life, especially all of his political life. the november 22nd, 1963, that hurt arrived in a single split second in dallas on an afternoon in dallas. i had never been with him on a campaign stop where he wasn't literally a hands-on politician

with a hand would go out on the shoulder of a constituent and you can't fake it, joe. you know you can't fake that stuff and he never did. >> thank god some of my opponents were terrible at that. i'm a hugger. it helps. it really does. liking people actually helps. you have to go, chris. before you go, i want to talk about something that i've just picked up reading all these books about history. about the special relationship. you talked about g. gordon liddy, being moved by ted kennedy going up and hugging his daughter at graduation saying it's going to be okay. it's going to be okay. i have a feeling that came from the personal angst inside of him because he knew that his own father, joe kennedy, was so loathed by a certain segment of americans and yet it was ted

kennedy who had a relationship with this man who sed set up the kennedy dynasty. he was the someone who had to go tell him when bobby died. he was the one that had to stay with him through those years. he had to go back and tell him about chappaquiddick. they had a relationship and he loved his dad dearly. it was so painful. >> i find many people believe who try to understand the kennedy story and it is about the brothers, all of them, is to what extent was it atonement for the old man? should the old man with the founding father and he was the one who made it all possible with his wealth and his guidance of those kids towards their careers and getting them into harvard and all that stuff that he did, all the manipulation he did in terms of getting the pulitzer prize for jack and all that stuff. >> right. >> but yet they were embarrassed

by it. he was a defeatist. he was an appeaser. he was on the wrong side of the whole century. >> and it was speculated joe kennedy, joe squr injure, got up and made the dangerous run he made at the end to atone for that because he knew he was the chosen one. he was going to be the president. he was going to be the first irish catholic president. >> did you ever see "the godfather"? there's an amazing parallel. the kennedy boys were americans. totally. sure they had an irish heritage. they were american patriots. joe kennedy gave his loif for his country. jack kennedy -- joe was fighting the nazis. jack the communists. do you know why jack was killed? he stood up to castro and a castro lover killed him. bobby kennedy was killed for our position in the middle east and a guy didn't like that position and killed him. these are political deaths. these guys stood up for what

they believed in. they were called warriors. the old man wasn't. the old man wasn't that kind of a patriot. he was only interested in his kids. he didn't have that gut love of the country the way the kids had. he wasn't fully assimilated. do you know what i'm talking about? and i think the kids wanted to atone for that and they really wanted to be true american heroes and not in the sense of being celebrated but giving everything they had to this country. they beloved this country and i think it's something to watch how jack kennedy did that and every time they ran for something, remember lyndon johnson? ly lyndon johnson went after jack kennedy. he was still hold iing it again them. still running against munich. still blaming jack for the old position on the second world war. it's interesting how you picked up on it. >> it was ted kennedy who stayed there, who was the brother that

survived there, constantly going back to his father saying, dad, i've got terrible news. california and seeing the old man stricken with a streak for years now just slumping in his chair. >> i think that's what you said a couple hours ago this morning, on a grim morning, about bobby -- teddy being able to see his brothers at sea and living with them in the presence of his life. >> yeah, we have that on tape, i think. it was an emotional moment and i got back to it not on camera a couple years after that, this past early summer. and he talked about it at length, being able to see his brothers when he was out on that boat and pointing out to me where his brother joe taught him how to swim right out in front of the compound on a small strip of beach by hyannis port,

harbor. he would take his brother joe and getting into his recollection of family being notified on that hot august day that joe had been killed over the english channel. he has a vivid memory of it, where his mother was. she was in the kitchen. his father was upstairs. all of those things, the collective memories that he had of those tormented moments that he lived through that made him become what he became. a truly thoughtful, kind, compassionate, generous human being to everyone he met regardless of political party. >> there's going to be a lot of talk about the tragic blessings of the kennedy family and the curse. it's all nonsense. these people were courageous risk takers. kathleen kennedy kicked the girl, the oldest daughter, she was killed with her lover traveling on a plane ride she never should have taken through terrible weather in europe.

joe took a mission with a planeloaded with dynamite to blow up the v-1 rocket site. jack kennedy was killed in an open car in dallas in the midst of the most hated -- the risks they took. wading through crowds of people in california in that very difficult primary. risk takers. they took risks and they got killed by those risks. for teddy to die at 77 with gray hair is remarkable. >> and with a remarkable legislative history. chris, i know you need to go. >> i'll see you all later today. >> to elijah couples. chris, you'll be talking about this at 5:00 and 7:00 tonight on "hardbal "hardball." congressman cummings, give us your thoughts this morning on ted kennedy's legacy.

>> i'm saddened and when i think about ted kennedy i cannot help but think back to when katrina was taking place and ted kennedy was on vacation. he called me and said, elijah, we have to do something about this. we cannot allow people to drown in their own urine. i can never forget that as long as i live. shortly after that, members of the congressional black caucus went on national tv and urged president bush to do something about it. i was listening to you all over the last few minutes. but you have to understand one of the reasons ted kennedy was able to do so many things, reach across the aisle and convince others to help them is because i know that people felt members of congress and members of the senate felt that he felt the pain of those who were either

voiceless or had voices that were too soft to be heard. when you look at the causes he was able to pick up. i have a picture in my office that ted kennedy sent me many, many years before i came into congress of him and mandela. he'd gone to south africa to help in the apartheid there. we know of that story. there are so many causes he took on. i think he took all the things you all have been talking about today, all the things that the family has gone through, he has used those trials and tribulations as a passport to help other people and that's what it has been all about. he could have been a very angry man. he could have said, you know, like i've been dealt some horrible cards here. he said, no, you know, i'm going to take the cards i've been dealt. i'm going to give it the very best and not only am i going to feel compassion, not only am i

going to feel people's pain but i'm going to do something about it. i think it was that sincerity and that realness that caused others like orrin hatch and senator mccain and so many others, bob dole, with regard to the voting rights act, that all of those bipartisan efforts i think he was able to actually act almost as a magnet because they could feel that sincerity. >> thank you for being with us. in washington we also have pat buchanan and david gregory. david, let me start with you here. tell me where the health care debate goes from here. there have been so many starts and stops. the irony of him passing perhaps on the eve of health care reform's greatest achievement in his eyes.

a great irony. where do we go from here? >> i think it's uncertain. he was on the sideline in a way he hoped not to be. it became abundantly clear to this white house that as engaged as he was and wanted to be he would not be the one to pull the sides together. i mentioned senator hatch earlier this morning. he pulled away from those negotiations in the senate finance committee and it has fallen to senator baucus to try to deliver that grand bargain with the gop and that has yet to materialize yet even though they're still talking about it in the senate. so the ability of ted kennedy, the lenls lator, the one who knew how to make deals, the one who sort of knew where everybody's temperature was and what they needed on a particular issue, that has not been felt in the heat of this debate at a time when this white house was trying to thread the needle

between being clear about what it wants and letting congress set its own course. so it's been a very difficult line and allies of this white house have been working on health care say you just can't overstate the void left by senator kennedy in this health care fight particularly when it comes to a point where people are not persuaded. republicans have not been persuaded to join on and even those more conservative democrats don't feel like they know where the president stands and where he does stand they don't like where it's headed. >> mike barnicle? >> pat, much has been said this morning and much will be written about the fact that senator kennedy was able to reach across party lines, reach across the aisle in friendships with a lot of republicans. you worked in the nixon white house. a lot has been written in terms of history about president nixon's seeming obsession with the kennedy family. was there ever a larger element to the relationship other than

we've heard and seen? was it close to an element of perhaps friendship or anything else? >> you're exactly right. president nixon had run against jack kennedy and he had tremendous -- you had to have respect the abilities of jack kennedy. and then we ran against bobby kennedy or thought we might be running against him. both were killed. and the president -- i think president nixon really felt this was the younger brother and i do recall after chappaquiddick one time that kennedy was down at the white house and this was very soon after that. be a after the meeting was over in the cabinet room and i used to be in there in the legislative leadership meetings taking notes, i saw the president. he took kennedy in to the oval office to talk to him about what he had gone through and all the rest of it on a personal level.

now that didn't -- and also president nixon, he was always, i think, very apprehensive about the skills and charisma of the kennedy family. but there's no doubt there was an enormous amount of respect. he and jack kennedy, richard nixon, they first knew each other on a train up to pennsylvania to debate with their young congressmen in 1947 and they had been friends. joe kennedy sr. had contributed to nixon's campaign. so there was that relationship that existed before the falling out in 1960. my wife shelly worked up in the vice president's office before the kennedys were assassinated back in 19 9. and even then she told me when teddy came in the girls in the office, the secretaries, knew teddy was coming down the hall. a lot would go out there because there was this extraordinarily

handsome young guy in his late 20s at the time or mid-20s at the time. kennedy -- they always carried that charisma with them. in addition to his personality, the legend and the rest of it that enabled him to get so much done. >> david gregory, you have a question for pat? >> yeah. i want to talk about the flip side of that with nixon and kennedy as well, pat. you may remember as well nixon was obsessed to a certain level about trying to dig up dirt on ted kennedy fearing that he would run against him and talked to others about hiring private eyes to tail him and thought chappaquiddick would be the death knell of his career. that obsession was striking. >> there was no doubt initially teddy kennedy was thought to be, as i mentioned, they had wanted him on the ticket in '68 and we

thought he'd be the candidate in ' 2. six months after the election chappaquiddick occurred. no doubt the watergate folks were there in chappaquiddick picking up the facts and there were guys in the campaign and that entourage who were aware of all the rumors about teddy kennedy even after chappaquiddick. no doubt it had been a very rough battle if we'd gotten into it with teddy kennedy. there's no question about it. we would not have pulled back at all. in '72 i had argued it would be a mistake to bring up chappaquiddick. you should get out of the way when things like that are brought up. you know on teddy kennedy, someone mentioned that bobby byrd wept when he heard about ted kennedy's illness. as i recall they were in a

savage battle at one point for majority whip in the u.s. senate and teddy kennedy thought he had the votes and he was beaten at that time by robert byrd. so his life it's an on and off relationship with a lot of people. >> you know, pat, i'll tell you an interesting story about that fight for the whip's job in january of 1971. his roommate and best friend through all these years told me that during the vote it was a secret ballot and two of the senators voted for byrd and they spelled his name b-i-r-d. they couldn't even spell his name correctly. two of them voted b-i-r-d for byrd. >> for teddy kennedy, i know he said after that -- i didn't realize it was back in '71, back that far -- but i do remember teddy kennedy said i had so many

committed votes but the count fell about five short on the number who are committed to me and it's a secret ballot. i think that was a real jolt for kennedy at that time that he was beaten in that battle. >> those leadership elections in congress are serious. people lie to you more than fourth graders when you're running for class president. i remember running for class president in fourth grade and being lied to by everybody. i never remembered that until i ran for congress. it's the lyingest pack of people. do i have your vote? are you sure sure? >> get it in writing. >> getting it writing, that doesn't help either. those leadership contests are so ugly. savannah, you have a question for david gregory. >> that leads to my question so perfectly. it strikes me people have said

the absence of kennedy is so felt as we do health care reform. i think it really drives home the point that personal relationships can matter. people's positions aren't the same but for some reason kennedy's personal touch, those gestures, made a difference. i wonder what you think the impact of this passing will be now on this battle. is there a possibility there will be some new groundswell of bi-part spartisanship or does ts with him? >> there's the potential for that and the obama administration, the white house will be careful, i'm sure, how it treads on that. you don't have to go too far down the line here to say this was a great cause of his life, getting health care reform, getting universal health care, something he started fighting for in 1966. it's been noted in the campaign that when he gave the endorsement, senator kennedy

prepared to endorse barack obama. he said you've got to tackle health care first. and barack obama made that promise and he lived up to that promise. and whether that was the right decision tactically, we'll find out. that was a key part of it. and so there's no question kennedy will still loom large as this debate looms forward as he has frankly in all the years it's been tried before. >> pat buchanan? >> joe and mike, clearly they've lost a vote. they only have 59 votes there and that's a crucial matter. but i would think lyndon johnson when john f. kennedy was shot, lyndon johnson came in and said let's do this civil rights bill in memory of jop f. kennedy. this is what he wanted. this was a fwrat cause. and we ought to do this thing. this is what he would have wanted in that emotional period after that. if i were barack obama, first, i would use this occasion to say

this is what he fought for all his life. now let's see if we can't pull together and get something done. but my question to you both would be would teddy kennedy have said, in effect, to barack obama we can't get this public option. let's get what we can get, or do you think he would have said let's go all the way and take the risk of losing everything and trying to get everything? >> pat, i certainly can't speak for the senate at all. i would be surprised and, mike, i defer to you on this one, i would be very surprised if a senator like ted kennedy who knew washington so well, who had seen perfect constantly being the enemy of good. who went through a terrible period in 1993 and 1994 when health care was savaged. as paul wrote in a recent op-ed,

we tried throwing the hale mary and we ended up getting sacked. get what you can get now. every step is a step in the right direction. i won't speak for ted kennedy. i don't know. it seems to me looking at his history and legacy he would take what he could get now. >> the testimony of history and the testimony -- we've been on the air now for a couple of hours -- about ted kennedy's life as a politician, is that he was a consummate legislator. there's a great deal of irony in the fact he was presiding over the united states senate on the afternoon of 1963 when he received word his brother had been shot in dallas. and through all of the years and especially since 1980 when his hopes for the presidency ended in failure to jimmy carter, he has concentrated on being the

consummate legislator. you're right. we can't speak for him obviously. you also can't envision him seeing this lifelong ambition, this lifelong legislative goal crumbling because of his opstinancy. i can see him going to olympia snowe or susan collins you are the vote. >> we talk about this every morning on the show. the one thing ted kennedy understood and any great legislator understands is that you don't go around speaking in generalities. you go to owe llympia snowe. if you think you can pick off a republican and you ask a question. a very simple question. what do you need? i need you. i will do what it takes to get you onboard. what do you need?

i need the 60th vote. that's how it works. while we can't speak for ted kennedy here, we talk about it. mike barnicle and i know how ted kennedy operated. he would go on the floor and he was a liberal's liberal. he was just a hero to liberals for years. but if a friend came to him, a conservative friend, and says i really need this, he wouldn't beat his chest, you know, away from me! he would say, okay, let me think through this. you know what? i'm going to call orrin hatch. i'll tell you what, orrin will be behind you. i have some other friends. i'm going to line them up for you. because ted kennedy understood that was part of the deal. that you were pragmatic. that even if you couldn't get what you wanted all the time, you were the cracks and edges. you did the deal.

>> pat and david in washington, savannah here, you understand washington. >> willie does, of course. >> willie understands show little it's shocking. we'll move past that. the he will he emt of senator kennedy's career encompass just that, joe, people of opposite parties, whether they were constituents or the national stage whether it was taxes, whether it was banking legislation, whatever it was, and he would say exactly that. let's figure out what we can do to move it forward for you. i will have to vote against it in committee and i will vote against it on the floor but i'm going to send you to orrin hatch. >> i'm going to vote against you. i may even wave my arms a little bit because this is what's happening behind the scenes. i'm going to help you. i have another group that will help you. don't worry. it will be okay. >> it wasn't hypocrisy.

it was goodwill. >> david gregory, final thoughts. i know you have to leave us. >> you go back to the administration of bush's father, the first president bush, the idea of getting individual mandates for health insurance with a dead letter on capitol hill. look at what's possible in this reform effort right now even if the public option is controversial, the idea of so much more access, of the insurance companies onboard in a way they weren't when president clinton tried it. those are elements of the fight senator kennedy would smile about. and, again, he has a history on this of wanting to break it up and getting what he could get and then going after the rest later. >> all right. david, i know you have to go. thank you so much for stopping by and talking to us. >> okay. see you later. >> we appreciate it. we're coming up on the top of the hour. of course the sad news out of hyannis port. ted kennedy has passed away after a long struggle with cancer. you're watching a special

edition of "morning joe. "mike barnicle, you have been with the senator several times over the past months and told us things had gotten difficult. especially over the past few wee weeks. talk about the ted kennedy you saw. the ted kennedy you knew even in these final weeks. >> well, i haven't seen or spoken to him in the last months but probably around july 4th i saw him, spoke to him down on the dock in hyannis port getting ready to go out on his boat, the sailboat the maya. there was a certain calmness, a stoicism of his fate. i think he lived these last few months with a certain luxury.

he knew he had a certain luxury that neither of his brothers, neither of his three brothers ever had and that was the ability to frame up his life, to see his family, to be with his children and his surrogate children, caroline kennedy and the shriver children. and i think he took great, great pleasure and said sentimental moments obviously in the last few weeks of going up the hill from his home about 500 yards to the shriver home where he would have a drink in the late afternoon with his sister eunice who we knew to be dying. wonderfully poignant moments in a family that has encapsulated history over 50, 60 years, some think it's incomprehensible. willie geist was talking with me

earlier if you look at the time line of senator's life before he was in the state senate the events that were encapsulated in that life are nearly overwhelming to look at. >> his story is the story of our time. >> yes. >> schlessinger said about his older brother bobby it is the case. >> good and bad. for every triumph there was a tragedy. not just his brothers but he was in the plane crash where he broke his back. he survived. the pilot died. this guy over a long 77-year life, has seen it all. >> we have pat buchanan, savannah guthrie with us, and also we spoke last hour to david axelrod and david remembered ted kennedy. in fact reminisced about what he thought to be one of the pivotal moments in last year's

presidential campaign when ted kennedy endorsed barack obama. >> when i think back to that presidential race of 2008, there was a pivotal weekend that changed everything. it was the weekend that senator obama won the south carolina primary. the next morning caroline kennedy endorsed him in a beautiful piece in "the new york times" and then the following day senator kennedy endorsed him at this huge public event in washington. that was just rife with emotion and history. that transformed our campaign in a very big way. >> savannah guthrie, when did president obama and michelle learn about the president -- or about ted kennedy's passing?

>> he was awakened 2:00 this morning. he got the call. they are on martha's vineyard having a week off and he placed a call to mrs. kennedy at 2:25 this morning. we do expect him to come and make a statement before the cameras later this morning. 8:30 or 9:00 is probably the time. it's been so interesting to hear these reflections. one thing that really strikes me, sometimes when a political figure like this passes away, you hear a fun, interesting story, a story of graciousness. you hear that same story over and over and over again. in the case of senator kennedy you hear many stories, hundreds of these instances for the first time and i think it really shows how many of these little gestures. you talked about, mike, he had the poignancy and the privilege of this long divide and the benefit of hearing himself eulogized in a way. >> on several occasions over the past year prior to june when he

would go from boston to the cape for chemo treatment or to see one or another of his doctors, on the way back to the cape he would make it a point to be driven to the home of a family who had lost a son or daughter in iraq or afghanistan, spent some time with them. this was en route back after receiving chemo back to the cape. he would do that. he was an extraordinarily generous human being. >> and i told the story when i left congress. i had actually worked with joe kennedy and later jim romer. and when i left congress a few years later i had to leave, go home. my younger son had diabetes and

as i was leaving congress it wasn't republicans i had worked with, who i had helped, who i raised money for, who i struggled along with that remembered me so much. it was ted kennedy. a guy i hadn't had a lot of contact with and he sent over a wonderful letter saying if andrew ever needs anything, please give me a call and i'll make sure i can do whatever i can to help out. and then sent me this wonderful picture of bobby, bobby kennedy. a wonderful note on it bobby would have loved working with you. i have great respect. all these kind things he didn't have to do. here's a guy that was in congress. he's leading. he can't do us any good anymore. we don't need his vote. we don't need anything. ted kennedy stops and took a great deal of time to write that letter, to send that picture, to

do some very thoughtful things and that's, you know, you always hear people talking about character is what you do when nobody's looking. we always hear the bad side of that with ted kennedy, what he did when people weren't looking, when things blew up in his face. there are so many other stories about what he was doing and he knew he wouldn't get a headline. he knew that it wasn't going to help him politically but he made these small gestures to help people who could never help him back but he did it and he touched so many people's lives that way and, pat buchanan, you've heard these stories time and time again about ted kennedy. again, a guy both you and i probably couldn't disagree with more ideologically but personally -- personally we don't have enough people in washington, d.c., like that, do

we, people that make the small gestures and stop and care for you when you're down. >> that's exactly right. that's exactly right and i've had examples of that as i said. a mutual friend of ours stopped me on the street. in effect, said, pat, give this guy a call. he's a little bit down right now. he's a big fan of yours. give him a buzz. and he had that -- and i was thinking of the other kennedy brothers and him. and what you were talking about, ted kennedy was a people's politician. he was gregarious, irish, friendly, considered. all of these skills as a politician whereas jack kennedy, whom i first saw in person at a wedding in 1958 having to come up with ft. lauderdale to palm beach and he came through the wedding reception. there was a real aristocratic princely touch to jack kennedy that was two years before he was president. and bobby kennedy was an intense, sort of a hot figure unlike teddy kennedy. teddy had those people skills

that neither of his brothers had and you add that to the charisma, the kennedy legend, the name, and the fact he's been on the hill and that gave him just tremendous personal clout. i really believe if he were healthy and he were on the hill now and he was leading president obama's battle for health care, it would be on the verge of success. they wouldn't have gotten everything. as you said, he's not going to settle for nothing. if he fights for everything and then he's lost something, he said, okay, we lost that, let's get what we can and we'll come back for the rest later. and i think the president will be on the verge of success. >> let's bring in mark leibovich right now. he's with "the new york times" joining us from washington this morning. mark, good to see you. >> nice to be here. >> you wrote a piece not so long ago talking about the impact that ted kennedy would have on this health care debate. you wrote as a divided senate tangles over health care

legislation there is bipartisan consent on one point. talk more about your piece. >> well, what's really been vivid over the last summer certainly is how conspicuous he's been in his absence. democrats and republicans have brought his name up. when people tend to overlook in this debate, people throw around the word bipartisanship. what people forget is bipartisanship is hard work and this is hard work over decades of gestures like joe described and everyone around here as described. that could be not so much cashed in because i don't think he see it is monetarily in any sense but could be sort of called upon in relationships that could be nourished upon in a time like this to actually maybe get something done and i think people across the board have talked about how conspicuous he has been in his absence and who

knows how things could be different if he were here. >> mark, we don't want to look forward too much this morning but it's no small news democrats have 59 senators and that it's going to take a while regardless of what ted kennedy's wishes were in that letter last week to get a new senator. chris matthews said it could be a matter of six months or something like that. what does that mean for this debate? >> well, i mean, certainly on a very practical level it could give the democrats one less vote and there's not going to be anyone seated for several months as you said. i think there will be many people who invoke ted kennedy's memory the next few weeks certainly around the health care debate and all the tribute so richly deserved will often come with a tag line about he would want as a dying wish health care legislation to be passed in due time in the u.s. senate.

again, i asked orrin hatch, listen, if ted kennedy came to you and said i'm dying, would you give me the vote on this, what would you do? hatch said to me if we were closer, it might make a bigger difference. obviously they are not at a point where it would make a difference. >> all right. mark, thank you so much for being with us. let's go to hyannis port and talk to nbc's anne thompson. anne, you were up in that village that has really since at least late 1959, early 1960, sort of at the center of a lot of hopes and dreams for democrats and americans alike. what are they saying in hyannis port this morning? >> reporter: well, as you can imagine, joe, hyannis port holds the kennedys very, very dear. the kennedy family literally put

hyannis port, massachusetts, on the map, and it has been the center of their political hopes and dreams. you remember way back in november of 1960 this is where john f. kennedy waited the return in his incredibly close election with richard nixon. it is here where they have celebrated weddings. caroline kennedy's wedding in 1986. maria shriver's wedding to arnold schwarzenegger. st. francis xavier church where her mother was just buried last week. it has also been a place where they have come together when tragedy has struck so many times. those famous pictures of robert f. kennedy walking across the beach in the days after jfk's assassination, after jfk jr. died in the plane crash, this is where the family gathered. and just two weeks ago as i said this is where they came to mourn eunice kennedy shriver. it is a touch stone for the

kennedys. it is a town that holds them in great regard and respects their privacy. and to that end today we have seen the police come and cordon off several of the roads into the kennedy compound s. many media have shown up here. not too many onlookers. we've seen some people go jogging. some people fight. some people go to pick up their morning papers. but it is a day where we expect people will continue to come and gather as we wait for word as to how senator 0 kennedy will be remembered in a funeral service. we expect that information later today or tomorrow. >> all right, anne, thanks a lot. nbc's anne thompson up in high xwran is port. that was also, of course, the place where ted kennedy after bobby was assassinated went up to and just sailed. go out sailing by himself alone.

the metaphor obvious, he felt alone in the world. >> he took refuge in the ocean for most of the last month given the nature of our business vickie kennedy tried to avoid photographers with taking the senator out on the boat "the ""they moved the boat from the hyannis port yacht club, 100 yards from the kennedy compound, over to hyannis harbor, to a marine in hyannis harbor. at the marina they were able to take him out in a wheelchair out on the dock and onto the boat without the prying eye of us, our photographers, and so he enjoyed the solace and the r refuge and companionship of the ocean right up until about a week or ten days ago.

as we talked earlier, he saw things out on that ocean in his mine's eye -- >> and you had said earlier for those that are just waking up when he was out in the ocean -- >> i did ask him that once when he was out there on the ocean, when the wind would change directions and the sun, the color of the water, i said, senator, do you ever see your brothers out there? and he replied right away, quickly, like that, yes, yes, i see them. all the time. all the time. >> and all the memories around there, like you said, when his big brother, joe, taught him how to swim, where he was when he heard hyannis port joe had been killed in world war ii. >> he would also talk about -- he was a living memory himself. he would talk about how in the summers of 1961, '62 and '63

when the helicopter bearing the president, president kennedy, would return from otis air force base where air force one would land. where air force one landed to take barack obama to the vineyard earlier this week and the president would take the helicopter marine one and they would land on the lawn outside the kennedy family compound and they would have contests with the children and now the grandchildren. whoever was best during the week would get to ride on the helicopter. as they took the president back to washington. >> i wish i had that for my kids. pretty good. savannah, you're following some news. >> the president will speak at 8:30 this morning. they've rented a property on martha's vineyard. he'll make a statement about senator kennedy. we've learned who it was that woke the president this morning. it was marvin mick ol son, the director for the campaign and still with the white house, special assistant to the president, who called and woke him up, gave him the message.

president obama then called mrs. kennedy about 25 minutes later. >> president barack obama will be speaking in about an hour and 15 minutes from the farm where he and his family are staying on martha's vineyard, so close to hyannis port. we'll be carrying that live. the president has already issued a written statement. willie, people across america and the world are thinking thoughts and recollections. >> this is a statement savannah first brought us this morning. president obama saying this about ted kennedy. i valued his wise counsel in the senate where regardless the swirl of events he always had time for a new colleague. an important chapter in our history has come to an end. our country has lost a great leader who picked up the torch of his fallen brothers and become the greatest united states senator of our time.

we'll hear more at 8:30. house speaker nancy pelosi on kennedy. kennedy had a grand vision for america. ted kennedy's dream of quality health care for all americans will be made real this year because of his leadership and his inspiration. and governor schwarzenegger of california, of course, with a personal connection here, maria and i are immensely saddened by the passing of uncle teddy. he was the rock of our family. we also heard from the government of great britain and ireland, former prime minister tony blair as well. >> thanks, willie. host of msnbc's "andrea mitchell reports," andrea mitchell. andrea, you have followed senator kennedy's career since the early '70s. a remarkable career. what are your thoughts today? >> well, first of all, that we've lost this great man and a man who was a father and uncle, really the leader for that entire generation for several

generations of kennedy families, kennedy nieces, and how he was the lead er of that family but also our nation. you know how he worked across the party lines all the way back to dan quayle, a jobs bill. who else would have been working with this young senator, dan quayle? that was one of the things dan quayle pointed to that gave him a leg up to try to be a competitor, to become a vice presidential nominee. these are things that have long been forgotten even more recently, of course, his work with orrin hatch over the years and trent lott and others. on health issues and on jobs issues. these are liberal issues he cared about in a city and country ever more partisan. he was one of the few remaining

people who could be as tough as he was in the armed services committee when don rumsfeld came in for a hearing but still know how to work with republicans on other issues. the war, of course, his most important vote, he said. that is remarkable given how many votes he had over the decades. and finally the man who lumbered through the senate more recently with the dogs but lumbered through the senate. i always through my stand-up on camera appearances for "nightly news" from the russell balcony next door to his office, he would come by. then his hideaway was right by our senate coupcal and he would invite us in to chat. the momentos, the history, there's no way to even quantify all of the things that ted kennedy did. >> you know, andrea, people just tuning in who haven't heard mike and pat and chris and all of us

talking about ted kennedy, if they just turned on the tv this morning they'd be surprised to hear you talking about ted kennedy, the bipartisan senator that could reach across the aisle. but there were two ted kennedys. there was ted kennedy who believed fervently and passionately that government needed to reach out and be expansive, do what it could to help the truly disadvantaged but there was also the ted kennedy that may have been against the war and beaten the hell out of republicans but quietly walk across the aisle and try to forge bipartisan compromise on other issues. that's what made him such a unique character. >> some partisan democrats were angry when he worked with george w. bush on no child left behind. he later told me on the ways he thought it needed to be fixed, he regretted working on that

bill. he thought he did not get enough in it. that he should have perhaps figured out different compromises on that. he did think there were unfunded mandates that were not working the way he envisioned but he did work with george w. bush, with republican senators. he worked with george bush's father on americans with disabilities act in 1989 and 1990 and 1991. the things he was proud about, the war in iraq, gun control, those were the things that you saw the great senator kennedy. there were moments, the bad years, the clarence thomas hearings and that whole period before he married vickie. i think the later years were the happiest of his life, arguably other than the years of camelot with his older brother. >> and no doubt you bring up his marriage to vickie.

that certainly was a transformative moment in the 1990s for the senator. are you going to be doing your show from hyannis port today? >> i think we're going to be doing nonstop coverage. we're heading to the airport now, yes, indeed. >> thanks to mark leibovich. let's go to capitol hill right now and nbc's kelly o'donnell. i just saw, mike barnicle, a troublemaker coming in. we're going to be talking to bob kerrey. if you could frisk him before he comes on set. this is former senator bob kerrey of nebraska. >> medal of honor recipient. >> a great man as well. >> a great man. >> bob kerrey will be with us in about seven minutes of the let's go right now to capitol hill, though, and talk to kelly o'donnell. kelly, the united states senate certainly has to seem like a different place for everyone who works there this morning. ted kennedy for the first time

in such a long time over four decades not there. set the scene for us at the capitol. >> reporter: it is really stunning, joe, when you talk to people here, people who worked for senator kennedy, people who work here in the building. it is a day where they are feeling this loss. even though everyone knew it was a terminal illness, it was unlikely he would be able to return to the senate in an active way. his presence is certainly missed here today. outside there is an obvious sign, a gesture in his memory with flags here at the capitol at half-staff. earlier when andrea was talking about senator kennedy's office, it is just down the aisle here and it is an amazing place. it is so filled with photographs and momentoes that really tell you the entire story of the kennedy family and to spend any time there with him and with staff, you got a sense of the history that came alive in his office and his passing, that connection to another time also

passes as well. we may learn more than we have before in the weeks ahead when his memoir is published. he's been working on it over the past couple of years. it is ready to hit stores in the next couple of weeks. he is explosive in some ways we haven't known before and maybe we'll have some new insight. definitely the sense there will be an opportunity for members to come back to honor him. we expect to hear from some of the kennedy aides today about plans how they want to go forward with services to honor him and what they might do here this washington as well. we'll bring that to you as soon as we get those details. i'm told that things are not quite finalized yet even though they have been contemplating how they wanted to do that. when andrea was working about victoria reggie who became the senator's wife back in 1992, one of the things she wassen strumtal in, joe, in 1991 he delivered a speech at harvard

where he acknowledged the failings of his personal life. she had been instrumental in helping him craft that speech. this is before they were married. that acknowledgement of some of the more difficult days, the period when he was often criticized for how he conducted himself in his own life, that seemed to really begin to turn and the relationship he had with the people of massachusetts thereafter and his public reputation began to evolve yet again. over the last 15 months when we have known about his great illness there has been an opportunity to look back at some of the accomplishments and some of the contributions and it has reset the scales about his public -- how he was viewed in the public eye. perhaps for kennedy's family that has been a good period of being able to see those reflections and to have him hear that himself in these recent weeks. >> kelly, thank you. kelly o'donnell at capitol hill. she brought up, and we have to

go to break here. when we come back we'll be talking more with pat buchanan and bob kerrey. brian williams will be with us as well but we need to bring this up. his marriage to vickie was, i think, a pivotal moment in his life. many people believed at the time that was precipitated because of a lot of bad stories out there remember the story -- the "gq" story michael kelly wrote about that was absolutely devastating. painted a portrait of a senator out of control and there were many saying at the time when he married vickie that that was damage control, he was going to have a hard time being re-elected and somehow it was ted kennedy just trying to protect himself politically but, of course, over the years we have found that that was, in fact, the transformative moment for ted kennedy. >> oh, there is no doubt about that, joe. there is no doubt about that.

it was a transformative moment for him as a human being and as a politician. it was a calming moment. it gave him security, the ludicrous metaphor of finally a safe harbor after years of pain. >> a lot of personal turmoil. >> a lot of personal turmoil. there had been an episode with his nephew, william kennedy smith, and then vickie reggie, daughter of a political family herself, her father, a former judge ed reggie, was a delegate to the 1960 convention for john f. kennedy. an early supporter of robert f. kennedy for the presidency. they get married and she brought a healing process to him that he had not had in his life. i think for many, many years. and she has been such strength alongside him especially over 0

the last two years and it was her -- we can say this now -- it was her goal early this year to get ted kennedy through this summer because he loved being where he was when he died. he loved being home. he was home with history. the world knew him. he was known around the globe. but he was home when he died. and that's what she wanted. that's what he wanted. >> he was home. you're right, this morning when he passed away. we're remembering ted kennedy this morning. we'll have more on our special coverage from the passing of senator kennedy with brian williams. also senator bob kerrey has come into our studio. we'll talk to him and mike barnicle's own personal remembrances. we also have nbc white house correspondent savannah guthrie with us to give us the white house's reaction. an hour from now barack obama will be speaking from martha's

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>> with us now former governor and senator from the state of nebraska, one of my favorites, bob kerrey. senator, talking about ted kennedy this morning, he was a guy very partisan as we know but at the same time a wonderful man who quietly worked behind the scenes with people from both sides of the aisle. tell us about the map you worked with. eye got there in 1989 from nebraska. i was afraid to get my photograph taken with him. i'd rather have donna rice sitting on my lap in "monkey business." >> than your arm around ted kennedy. >> i just came to admire him. the two things that struck me about him is one -- and i think it's really an underrated value, he became competent. competency is really underrated.

really important when you're trying to get a job done. and the other thing was he had humility and he treated people with respect. 46 years there isn't a single story about a staffer who was abused or someone mistreated. he respected people. >> isn't that remarkable? a man of privilege, a man that grew up the way he grew up, and we always -- we said this earlier, we hear the terrible stories about ted kennedy and people worth watching but then something blew up. what about the thousands and thousands of stories about ted kennedy you and i both know. we have people that will smile for the cameras and go in and abuse their staff members. more members of congress do it than don't. but ted kennedy, you're right. 40 years, none of those stories. he treated everybody that worked under him with great respect. >> in '92 there was a group of

us that came to new york to do a fund-raiser for bill clinton, nominee of the party. we flew to teterboro with george mitchell, myself, jay rockefeller, ted kennedy and hawkins. limousines were waiting for us, drivers from across the river, the g.w. bridge, the parkway to the waldorf and we were the last car. teddy and i were together. he was joking with me, you know, i've really fallen into the low life here with a freshman senator. he said, i see you're having trouble with the catholic church and i was at the time. the first time i was ex commune communicated -- and just as soon as he said it it was like god shut our car down. the power all went out and he sprung into action. okay, bob, you go behind us. we have to get to the waldorf. there's a van behind us. you see if he'll give us a ride.

i'll check the guy in front. the guy looked like buffalo bob in "silence of the lambs" and the guy in front purple car and teddy's in the front seat with him and he's from puerto rico and they're speaking spanish and exchanging phone numbers all the way down to the waldorf but that's who he was. he treated people with respect and it allowed him to become the best member and the most effective member of congress. >> a man of extraordinary privilege, born into extraordinary privilege keeping the common touch. we don't see it much. >> and he really did go to bat for people who were given the shaft no matter who they were. if you're given the shaft right now, you should be weeping because he cared about people who were on the wrong side of politics. >> and as we said, it wasn't just ideological.

it wasn't just by expanding the government. picking up a phone call and calling an agency that was abusing a constituent or abusing a friend, ted kennedy was there, like you said, if you were getting the shaft, he was your friend. we have "meet the press'" david gregory with us. he wans to get in on the story bob kerrey was telling us. >> part of this kennedy legacy that we're talking about and his public life and what a grand figure he was, but before he was a grand figure, something i obviously care a lot about, which is his history on "meet the press" 20 appearances dating back to his first which was march of 1962. this was before he makes his appearance becoming -- before his candidacy for the u.s. senate and, you know, he sort of prepared and getting ready to

go, the brother, his president said you're going to be on "meet the press" tomorrow. are you ready? it was john kennedy, president kennedy started peppering him with questions. you're not anywhere near ready enough. you have to be able to handle all these questions so that was his very first appearance and then there would be 19 more, the longest span of anybody in terms of the breadth of time he appeared on the program. >> we're looking at the first time ted kennedy was on "meet the press" and how fascinating that ted kennedy in the early 1960s was seen as a life light. pat buchanan talking about the column he wrote, talking about if your name was edward moore instead of edward moore kennedy, your candidacy would be a joke. and yet here we have bob kerrey coming in talking about probably his defining feature as a

legislator, competence. competence we don't see enough, mike barnicle, on capitol hill. >> competence as well as a lot of other things that slide beneath the radar, the media, and most people's knowledge of what happens in the united states senate. as i look at my old friend, bob kerr kerrey, i think back to a moment -- >> this isn't going to be a story about you being thrown in jail? we have tom brokaw waiting on the phone. make it sure. >> i mentioned earlier about a fellow by the name of brian hart who lost his only son john in iraq october 2003 because he was in a humvee that had the strength of a piece of tissue paper and he was shot through and through, died. brian hart's only son, he had never met ted kennedy, was a conservative republican living in massachusetts and the first time he met ted kennedy was at

his son's grave side. ted kennedy's feel for those in uniform, his sense of what it was like to be hurt, to be damaged, to be vulnerabled, you mishave felt that many, many times on the floor of the senate. >> well, yeah. he's suffered, almost killed in ' '64, his older brother assassinated -- two brothers assassinated. he suffered a great deal and i do think that people who suffer end up with two choices. they can become bitter and feel like they've been put upon or they can turn that experience into compassion. and he had compassion. he had sympathy in a good way for people who were suffering. >> as they say, he became stronger in the broken places. take that pen pain and turn it into compassion. tom brokaw is with us on the phone. tom, what are your thoughts this morning about the passing of ted

kennedy? >> well, there's going to be an enormous hole in the united states senate and in american public life as a result of the loss of ted kennedy. i can't think of a public servant in my lifetime who had really such a grip on this country in so many ways. he was to run against for liberals he was a great champion. his personal life was often in turmoil and a lot of that was felt in deuce but he fought his way through it. the legacy we've been talking about in terms of his role as united states senator probably ought to be a watchword for where we are now in life. he was the guy who could walk into the room and embrace the most conservative critic there

with a big arm around the how old, raucous laugh and say can't we get together on this in some way? he never used his position or his ideology as a weapon. it was something he felt very strongly, obviously. he knew the role of the senate was to try to move the country forwa forward. as a result he did have a lot of admirers on the other side. >> and, tom, you obviously covered ted kennedy for quite some time. talk about the ups and downs in his very public life and how after marrying vicki he put his worst years behind him and really got down to the business of being a full-time senator. >> well, we can't look back on senator kennedy's life without examining chappaquiddick which was a terrible loss of life for a young woman. it was not well managed, i

think, by the senator and by many of his colleagues in how they explained his behavior at the time. he emerged from it, tried to put that behind him. and dethat by doing good work in the u.s. senate, by identifyi i civil rights and health care as the two twin principles of what his career would be about. he was a man of privilege. he put one foot in front of the other year after year, tournament after tournament in the senate, and he would win over those on the other side of the aisle. and he was fearless about going out in the public and being ted kennedy and defending who he was. he ran for the presidential nomination against jimmy carter. that was another ill-fated political move. when he first began that

campaign jimmy carter said publicly i'll whip him and people thought that was not possible. the campaign kind of unraveled and then at the end of it at the democratic convention hall in new york city, ted kennedy gave one of the most powerful convention speeches i think in the history of the process including with the dream shall never die. so this is a man of many, many parts. at the heart of it was the great sign of an irish-american family with this powerful, powerful ability to go to the public stage and eloquently express what a lot of people wanted to hear and then the next day return to the sfat and do the hard work of walking the halls and picking up the phone and sharing a laugh in the caucus room with both the senate democratic colleagues and his republican colleagues.

the one thing overlooked about him he had, as mike will attest, he had a great sense of humor that was always cocked and ready to be unloaded at any turn and a lot of it was self-deferential. he could make fun of himself better than anybody else that i knew. and i told the story earlier this morning that maria tells, his niece. she was going to visit him a little more than a year ago when those of us in the nbc family were stunned by the unexpected loss of tim russert. when the news good to hyannis port they were sitting in the living room and vicki, ted's beloved wife who has bob at his side, so important to him, as a lot of people would say, well, at least he went quickly and he spared his family the lung suffering. and teddy roared with laughter and said, thanks a lot, vicki.

thanks a lot. the room erupted in laughter. >> well, all right. thank you so much, tom. tom brokaw, you've got "nbc nightly news" brian williams. your thoughts this morning? >> well, joe, this is a famous piece of real estate and to come down this street which i first visited as a kid with a friend of mine having spent my childhood reading about the kennedy family, seeing all the black and white images of this short piece of pavement on down to the water, it's quite something, evidence on how many levels this event, this loss, this story, is going to play out today. at the molecular level here, the kennedys are neighbors. as mike barnicle will tell you

they close in and they're very protective here. it's been a part of life. their family is part of the dna of the soil of cape cod. nationally, of course, the end of an era, the last of the kennedy men, the only of the original brothers to die of natural causes, something i just keep coming back to. amazing and it needs to be repeated all day so this is going to play out on so many levels in the days to come. >> brian, speaking of that playing out at so many levels, you've covered so many events having to do with not only senator kennedy but the extended family and you are standing now in a place where only ten years ago people gathered because john f. kennedy jr. had gathered because john f. kennedy, jr. passed away. if you can, for a moment, separate yourself as a news guy, a news anchor, from the weight of all the memories as they have to do with us as individuals,

not just news people. >> well, it's unbelievable, mike, the amount of american history this one family has colled, produced, created and stood witness for. remember those scenes when jfk, jr.'s plane was missing. ted was among all the other things, a chronic pain patient, all his life after the plane crashed, pulled out by senator birch. bad weather, small plane, he walked with great difficulty of breaking his back. ran for senate on his back. taped television commercials, shooting up at a camera to talk to the people of the commonwealth. the weight of being patriarch,

seemed mike, during those scenes when the coast guard chopper landed on the lawn, seemed to further push him into the ground. he walked with great difficulty in the last two to five years of his life. it's that weight he almost bore physically in the pictures. one of the many scenes that played out behind this complex behind us. willie geist and i were talking with joe about the sweep of history encompassed in this one senator's life. it's almost beyond belief. >> it really is. when you think, mike, put another way, take an adult american 50 years old today, it's safe to say they have not known life in america without a kennedy as part of our national politi politics. i said in the wee small hours after the news arrived, ted

kennedy was the last unapologetic democratic liberal in the post fdr era in national politics. that's going to be chalked up as part of his legacy. >> all right. brian williams, thanks for being with us. he will anchor the "nightly news" from hyannis tonight. >> earlier, we had somebody talking about how ted kennedy could put his big, beefy arms around democrats and republicans alike. he worked with republicans as well as democrats. loved republicans as well as democrats. you have a story about when he invited you over to meet a catholic bishop, tell us that. >> it was st. patrick's day and the irish prime minister was coming to the united states.

so, teddy kennedy, i'm down the street, i forget the exact year and my wife were invited to teddy kennedy's house. he sits me down to john culver, chris dodd, all these otherimód partisan liberal that is tear into me. he walks to each table and comes to my table and says are you enjoying yourself, pat? then he started laughing out loud. he was that way. it was a wonderful evening. it was a gracious thing for him to do. it was after the reagan and nixon years. it was after that time, joe, i was at the convention where he had an out period in '92. i got up and mentioned teddy kennedy and the whole convention hall booed. i said, wait, i like ted

kennedy. he's a friend of mine. how many other 60-year-old's do you know that still went to florida for spring break. he never commented on the remark. that was a time -- there's something else, joe. we were talking about how friendly he was and how he got along with the other side of the aisle. you can remember when your fund raising letter said if i lose, teddy kennedy will be raising the country. he was raise as much for them as for the liberals. >> thank you. so much for my campaign. i am here to stop you. but, isn't that something, pat, of course, pat has awful things said about him. he's said awfully tough things about others. that happens in washington,

d.c., but you are looking at pat smiling about this. ted kennedy, after pat makes that statement, invites pat to his house. he understood. this is part of the game. when i say he's a right wing fascist, it's not personal, it's part of the game. he understood that and he did not keep score. >> right. he wouldn't have called pat, if he didn't respect him. >> right. >> his capacity to respect other people brought him into contact with other people. >> that's washington today, for the most part. >> i think a csignificant amoun of it is gone. the thing earlier that i was saying about kennedy that impressed me was the willingness to go to bat for the people getting the shaft, sometimes by the government.

my favorite one, at the committee, i chaired it, i'm still a kid from nebraska in a lot of ways. i get a phone call from lou, edgar wanting ted kennedy to call him. i said you know him better than i do. i said i don't care if you call them, but tell me what's going on. he said know the treaty, i said yeah. now, the neighboring legislation and he's a conferee. i wrote an amendment on a napkin, i went over to him and said would you accept it and he did. these guys were freaking out.

>> what did you expect him to do? all right, just a little look at how sausage is made. more on our special coverage of the passing of senator ted kennedy when we return. john meacham will be with us. senator kerry, thanks for being with us. >> thank you. >> especially that story. we'll be right back. >> this november, the torch will be passed again to a new generation of americans, so, with barack obama and for you and for me our country will be committed to his cause. the work begins anew. the hope rises, again. and the dream lives on. most f headaches.

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if, by a liberal, they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people, their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, their civil liberties,

someone who believes we can breakthrough the stalemate, if that is what they mean by a liberal, i am proud to be a liberal. >> that's a picture of the capital this morning, flags flying at half mass -- half staff. senator ted kennedy passed away last night. president obama said, this morning, in a statement, the greatest senator of our time. certainly, historians will look at senator kennedy's body of work through the years, over the decades. i suspect many will come to that same conclusion, perhaps the most effect in terms of legislation and shaping his country, perhaps in the history of this republic. we are going to talk to john meacham, willie geist is with

us, pat bu kchanan is in washington. let's go to hyannis and speak to anne thompson. set the scene for us. a lot of people just waking up and hearing the news that senator ted kennedy passed away in the night. >> reporter: they are going about their scenes. people biking and jogging. one woman came over with flowers and balloons to pay tribute to the senator. it's a fairly quiet morning where we are because many of the streets to the kennedy compound have been blocked off by the police. the media continues to grow. i would say about 50 cameras now outside the kennedy compound, which is behind me. you can see it down the avenue behind me on nan tuckette sound, the sound senator kennedy loved so much. the family said the senator

passed away late last night. they said that he was the irreplaceable center of their lives, but there's something else they said that i found interesting. he said our best days are ahead. it's hard to imagine any of them without them. the kennedys have been fixtures for more than six decades here and it's where joe rose and brought their family here to hyannisport. it's what they think of for their home. it is a little enclave that supports the kennedys, if not politically, certainly in terms of privacy. they give the kennedy's their space. they go about and enjoy. if you go todayly mass in one of

t the churches you might see ted kennedy. every day ways made him all that much more to the people of hyannisport. they will miss seeing him when he walked to the end of the pier to get his sailboat. in more recent days to go on nantucket sound for the beauty of the area he loved so much. >> as mike barnicle was telling us, he was important to ted kennedy and vickie to get back to hyannisport and live through the summer.

enjoy the summer he enjoyed so much there. thanks so much. anne thompson, we'll check back with you up in hyannis. of course, this morning, at 2:00 a.m., the president of the united states was awakened and given the news that senator kennedy passed away. tell us what you know about that. >> he's vacationing on martha's vineyard with his family. they wanted to wake him in person at 2:00 and give him the news. he, then, the president called mrs. kennedy at 2:25. they released a statement from the president. he'll speak from the farm. they rented a property on martha's vineyard. we expect him to talk around 8:30. it's expected at 8:30 this morning. >> all right, savannah. let's go to washington, d.c. and

nbcs bureau. norah o'donnell. what's the impact of ted kennedy's passing on health care reform? >> i think there's a huge impact. it's less likely that president obama will get the legislative victory in the form he wants, even though ted kennedy asked president obama to promise him that this would get done. as ted kennedy said, this is the cause of his lifetime. i want to just note, too, that ted kennedy is going to be remembered as the most effective and most prolific senator, perhaps in american history. there are two other senators who served longer, that's thurman and byrd. neither had the record kennedy had. authors 2500 bills. hundreds of those passed into

law. not weird bills that we don't know about. these are bills with names we all know about. whether the americans with disabilities act. the civil rights in 1964, legislation to establish the martin luther king holiday. cobra, the coverage you get if you lose your job. these are title nine. gives women equal standing in sports. this is huge legislation he played a key roll in. one of the things pointed out to me and we have talked about it is he was always the first to call. not just other senators, but other people he knew, always first to call when something bad happened because his own life made him acutely aware of pain, as someone pointed out to me. when senator gordon smith, a moderate from oregon, when his son committed suicide, it was ted kennedy, a democrat, who was first to call.

there's a letter on the wall, from trent lott. the world only knew. these are republicans who first ran for congress against teddy kennedy. trent lott raised millions to run against kennedy. they trusted him as their friend and someone they could work with. orrin hatch first ran for congress running against ted kennedy. became his best friend. worked on major pieces of legislation. s-chip for children, poor children so they could have health insurance. no children left behind. even john mccain was co-sponsoring legislation with teddy kennedy on immigration reform. mccain was excoriated for that to team up with the liberal line of the senate, ted kennedy. i think that's one remarkable piece of his history.

he's had a mixed bag, his personal life, struggles with alcohol, women and other issues. there was something that he learned from that. he tried to change his life and he was acutely aware of pain because of the tragedy in his own life. he tried to have personal and good relations with people in the senate, people who trusted him. that's why he was able to get stuff done. >> no doubt about it. norah o'donnell, thank you so much. let's bring in john meacham. john, i read the book on bobby kennedy when i was a teenager. it inspired me to get into public service. on the outside of the book, it says his story is the story of times. if that's the case with bobby kennedy, it's really the case with his younger brother, teddy. he didn't pass strange bills,

like me. he passed really significant bills. two part question. is he the most significant senator of our time historically and is he perhaps the most effective senator of all time in united states history? >> he certainly belongs in the company of henry clay and daniel webster and a great 19th century folks who kept the union together until they didn't. i think, of course 20th century, he's vital. you can't tell the story of the last half century, you can't tell the story of the subsequent chapters without talking about what kennedy wrote, passed, fought for, compromised for and so he will be written about as long as the history of the country is written about.

i think it was one of the great american lives of the age. because of its complexity, it's more interesting. this is a man -- >> complex man for an extraordinarily complex time. a time that even changed radically from the time ted kennedy campaigned for his brother in 1960, where we are in 2009. the turmoil, the ups and downs, political wars in washington, d.c. it's been a rough 50 years. >> it has been. if you look at the family story, briefly, it's a maker and mirror of the american century. immigrant politics in boston, wall street money early on. his father was the first head of fcc. he represents american isolationism, which was an important force in the country. they were wrong. it was a widespread factor in

the late '30s and early '40s. the new frontier, the antiwar sentiment. opportunistic some would argue on the part of robert kennedy. the family legacy at this point of joe and rose kennedy's children, comes down to this man who went to work every day. for decade after decade after decade, to my mind, history is more powerful because it is a story of redemption. 40 years ago, this summer, he was compelled to give a speech of 20 years ago now. this is 18 years ago saying he knew he needed to clean up his act. >> that was right after michael kelly's explosive "gq" article

that really laid bare any questions about how the senator had been out of control, personally. but, that changed. >> wine, women and song were critical parts of his life for a long time. again, what i find compelling and strangely inspiring about him, he did have demons and he fought them. sometimes the demons won and sometimes he won. ultimately, when you look at the career and what he made of his personal life, appearances in the last chapter, it's a case where the better angels won out. >> you talk about the demons and the demon that is a lot of people start with start in 1969. i think about the books i've read about bobby kennedy, how he was haunted in '64 through '68, just haunted day in and day out

by dallas. he has that to carry with him. teddy kennedy had the death of bobby and jack and joe, jr. and his sister and his other sisters tragic labotomy. then the pass iing of john, jr. it's somebody that followed the kennedys for a long time. that was so painful to me. we moved 1, 000 miles. not even knowing the people personally, i couldn't watch the event. i stayed away from the tv set. it was too much for me. these were the demons ted kennedy had to face every day of his life. like bobby, after november of '63, ted kennedy was the patriarch of the family.

he was everybody's father. he had to stay strong with the demons. after the marriage to vickie, i don't think anybody would suggest he didn't do an extraordinary job doing that, would they? >> no, they wouldn't. as he said of his brother robert, there's no need to enlarge him in death than he was in life. as you are saying in the wave of tribute that's going to be breaking for a long time, it's important to remember this is a story of light and dark doing battle. it's not a rosy story of the last brother. he was the last because of bullets and planes going down. i don't think he expected this torch to pass. all the expectations to come to him.

and you're right about bobby. remember, he used to wear president kennedy's jacket. >> bomber jacket. >> yeah. he rose to the occasion ultimately. he fell short. who, among us, would not have? and i think, the measure, to some extent, the measure of a man is what your enemy's say about you, your political foes and the remarkable ability of kennedy to connect on a personal level. he was a master of what franklin roosevelt called the science of human relationships. while you know and i know that the worst thing to be for a long time in the american south or the sun belt broadly was a tip o'neal or teddy kennedy democrat. people who knew him had a different view.

it's an important lesson finally. he also is an architect of the way politics is now. we shouldn't overlook that, either. >> i brought up, again, as much as i admired him, i have to say one of the best speeches i have ever heard of seen, on the floor of the united states senate was a speech he delivered minutes after robert was nominated by ronald reagan. he said it's an america of back alley abortions, america where blacks are not allowed to sit at cafeteria counters. some really outrageous statements were made. you're right. there is that side of him as well. >> again, i think it makes him more interesting and again, to hear the story for "newsweek"

about the case for helt care to lay out the battle about this. when we were reflecting on that, it happened to be published the anniversary, around the moon landing. that was a hell of a "newsweek." a heck of a news week. >> cronkite was busy. in reflecting on him and how do you talk about him, the phrase i came up with is he is strangely inspiring. i think because of the human frailties that he so self-evidently faced. sometimes he overcame them, sometimes he didn't. all of us are like that. >> let's go from one pulitzer prize winner to another. let's go to doris kerns goodwin. seeing john kennedy for the

first time strolling through a wedding. there was a regal detachment to him. remembering bobby being hot and angry. then you have ted kennedy being remarkably human. as john said and it seems to be a battle of the light versus the darkness. through all those battles, he had an extraordinary record in the united states not of achievement. >> no question. i keep thinking, as i listen to the two of you talk about hemingway that everyone is broken after life, but some are stronger. i think it's true of teddy kennedy. he found a home in the senate. you think about 19th century senators like webster, calhoun and clay. it doesn't happen much in our time. the senate is a waiting room for

presidency. once he never had that ambition, he settled down to create the alliances in the senate. what john was saying is right. he was a master of human relations. i think it came from something way back. i remember having dinner with kennedy and his mother rose. he was talking about as a little kid he was so chubby and had to go to three or four boarding schools. how hard it was to make his way in a different boarding school, especially as a fat little kid. he learned the charm of personality. with baker, hatch. as people said with people on both sides of the aisle. as a conservatives conservative. you went after him in the '92 convention speech. he had that charm even toward you and other conservatives with

whom he greatly disagreed. >> sure, every time you ran into him, he has a wise comment to you. he asked you to call a mutual friend of ours who was down in the dumps. pat, give him a call, he's down. invite you to his house, have great fun at your expense. he was pleasant, introducing his wife. that capacity is something that was unique to him among the kennedys. when i went to the wedding reception and jack kennedy came through, he was like a young prince walking through. nodding his head to various people. when you saw bobby kennedy in 1968 in the oregon primary. the week before he was killed, he came in. he was intense. he was a different man than t teddy kennedy was. they didn't grow to teddy

kennedy's age. i think teddy mellowed a bit. and the marriage to vickie changed him from the character he was in the 1980s. he had the opportunity to develop all through life. as john meacham said, there are a lot of mistakes and blunders done wrong in that life, and an awful lot that was done right. >> mistakes and of course, that's too often we underline all the mistakes people make in public life and we don't, again, especially, i think this is the time. let's not enlarge him in death. at the same time, everybody in washington, d.c., i think mike barnicle, he's a unique character this way. everybody in washington, d.c., that knew ted kennedy, everybody that worked with him had wonderful things to say about him. it's the last line that he hung on his wall. it is, if only america knew the

real ted kennedy. you have been on the phone with somebody that knows ted kennedy. known him for a long time. >> vice president of the united states. i'm sure vice president biden wouldn't mind my telling about this. he called about, you know, he's stunned and saddened at the loss. everyone knew it was going to happen, but as with everyone who has ever encountered ted kennedy, either personal or political basis, vice president biden had a couple stories to tell. one was the tragic loss of his daughter in 1970, when his daughter was killed. ted kennedy called to see if there was anything he could do. another memory in 1986, right before the hearings were to get under way when there was a

couple story that is, you know, vice president biden, bogus stories in my estimation. vice president biden lifted parts -- >> a clinic speech. >> he was mortified of the publicity and went before the judiciary committee in the caucus room, behind closed doors and offered to resign. he said ted kennedy stood up and said no, you are my chairman. he nudged the man alongside him and the man alongside him stood up and said, no, no, you're not going to resign. you're my chairman as well. that was strom thurman. vice president biden never forget that. >> doris, go back to you, then john meacham. if you are writing a book as a historian, what do you focus on?

is it the battle between light and dark, where do you go with this story? >> what you focus on in part is here is a son of privilege who spent his life fighting for minorities, poor people, minimum wage, health care, aid to the disabled. he didn't have to do that. he came from a family where he could have allowed the pleasure seeking to take control. he came back from that and carved out a roll that will be remembered as the greatest senator of recent times. jack kennedy gave a silver cigarette box to teddy kennedy. he said the last shall be first. in a certain sense, in this extraordinary family saga, the caboose, as they called teddy became the engine. he's the one who had to take over joe, jr. died, jack takes

over. jack dies, bobbi takes over. his family has been in our hearts and minds for almost a century from the time fitzgerald wrote his father and the mayor of boston. each time something happened to that family, a death of sadness, teddy was the one who had to be there, giving the eulogies, letting the younger children depend on him. seeing in the last year, the outpouring of support and infection, you don't get to do that when you die suddenly as jack and bobby did. he saw there was still unbalance, greatly positive feelings toward him. that must have felt good to hear. >> mike, how ironic. you get the gift from the incoming president for eight years. he was the engine.

he was the patriarch, from june 6, 1968 until early this morning. >> yeah. it was a row, joe. i think he had since birth. i don't know weather doris agrees with me or not. i always felt part of senator kennedy's ability to empathize with people hurt or damaged began because he was the youngest in the family, he was the smallest. the littlest, the fattest. he used to tell the story about when he was first going away to prep school. his mother and father was sending him to prep school when he was 12 or 13 years of age. his parents bought him a set of luggage to go to prep school. the night before, they put the luggage outside his bedroom door in hyannisport. emk. he was excited. he never had luggage before. he woke up ready to pack and the

luggage was gone. it was gone because his sister, eunice marry kennedy took it. >> stole it. same initials! >> yeah. he always had that sense of i know what it's like to have something taken from me. >> is doris still with us? >> i am indeed. it's hard to bounce off that story. but, we have a few seconds before we lose your satellite. give us your final thoughts on ted kennedy. >> i think what he will be most remembered for is fighting the good fight at a time liberal ideology went up and down in valleys and peeks. he likes to say he stayed the course. i think we will remember him for that strength. whether one agrees or not, he fought the way he wanted to and got people on his side. it gave him the roof he didn't

have before. the senate becomes a bigger place as a result of what he did in it. >> thank you so much for being with us this morning. we really appreciate it. the president is announced an hour ago he would be speaking at 8:30. he is delayed. we will go to him as soon as he gets before the microphones. i want to ask you, as a pulitzer prize winner, a man who looked at great winners throughout our time, as you approach the story of ted kennedy, what do you look at? what would you look at if you were writing this biography beginning this morning? >> it's all about the tension between his angels and demons he tried to quiet for a long time with drink and with other pursuits. the fact that the angels won. it's that struggle that is so

fascinating. that's the shakespeare element here. despite what president kennedy engraved on a cigarette box, it's a generous gesture. >> did you ever read, "the kennedy imprisonment"? it's a fascinating story of the eight of the kennedy legacy falling on his shoulders since the campaign. >> right. >> i thought gary wills, there was a lot of material in there. the first time anybody examined jfks personal life. my god, even if you are a conservative, you read his work. it's a burden he carried with him. >> there's the personal burden and also, to me, the politics are even more fascinating than

those in the senate because ted kennedy and ronald reagan have something in common. they both were purists, movement figure who is challenged incumbent presidents of their party and hurt the ticket, ultimately. ted kennedy in 1980. ronald reagan and ford in 1976. it was an interesting moment to pick. of all the moments to pick to run for president, ted kennedy. i don't know if we heard from president carter? >> we're waiting for that statement as well as a statement from the clinton's. let's draw it out more. almost a carbon copy of 1980 to what happened in '76. reagan called down. he didn't want to give the speech. he gives a remarkable speech. he owns the convention hall. gerald ford runs after him trying to hug him to have the

glory reflected on his candidacy. we heard the story of ted kennedy giving perhaps the greatest speech in modern history and walking across the stage and carter chasing him. the parallels between reagan and kennedy are remarkable. >> they both embodied an ideology and a force within their parties that would ultimately win out the nomination of walter mondale. he had more in common with kennedy than carter, i would argument you asked about the biography and the theme. i think the theme would be he was an unlikely patriarch and he was, in some ways unlikely father figure. but, when history and tragedy

dealt him that hand, he ultimately played it very well. >> gary wills said in his book, it's hard being an american prince, especially if you are an unlikely american prince. he was supposed to be in the background. what are people saying across the world about the passing of ted kennedy? >> we have heard he was an unmistakable partisan, but we fought with a smile. we have seen evidence of that, people across the aisle reaching out. president george w. bush out with a statement saying they were saddened. he worked with him on no child left behind. his father said we don't see eye to eye, but i respected his steadfast public service. he was a figure in the united states senate. a leader who answered the call to duty for 47 years. his death closes a remarkable chapter in history.

that's from bush 41. nancy reagan saying ronnie and ted could always find common ground. we find ours in stem cell research. i consider him an ally and dear friend. a statement from arnold schwarzenegger. the passing of uncle teddy. he was the rock of our family. as i mentioned, george w. bush saying ted spent half his life in the united states senate. he was a man of passion who advocated fiercely for his conviction. i was pleased to work with him to raise standards in public schools, ensure dignity for americans suffering from mental illness. that from president george w. bush this morning. that's a sampling of reaction from across the country. >> pat buchanan, let's bring you in. we have been talking about reagan's remarkable speech in

'76, also. ted kennedy's speech in 1980. i want to play you the end of that speech, then ask you questions. >> we are the party. we are the party of the new freedom. the new deal. and the new frontier. we have always been the party of hope. so, this year, let us offer new hope. new hope to an america uncertain about the presence, but unsurpassed in its potential for the future. the work goes on. the cause endures. the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. >> pat buchanan, as a speech writer and communication director for two republican presidents, looking at that speech, do you think that will be one of the great convention speeches of our time? >> it's certainly one of the great convention speeches of the

modern era and of all time. people forget, in that speech, the significant part of it was he made enormous fun of ronald reagan and he had quos. he said governor reagan thinks pollution comes from plants and trees. this whole convention broke out laughing. he had them laughing. i was laughing. it was good, whitey humor. the ending was terrific. jimmy carter chasing him around stage, then heading out. that was funny, too. it was a terrific convention. what i'm thinking, joe, mike and i are contemporaries. we grew up in the '50s under ike. here come this family, jack kennedy. i grew up in d.c., jacqueline was the inquiring photographer.

i remember the marriage in '54. the battle in '56. bobby kennedy saying when they didn't know who was the attorney general, jack kennedy said i'm going to open the door at midnight and say hey, it's bobby because it was so controversial. it was a positive feeling in 1961. all of a sudden, dallas, then we are out there in california, the '60s and the riots in the cities, the urban riots, then suddenly, it's all teddy kennedy. all this fell upon him, the expectations. i think the pressure would have been enormous had he run in 1972. that must have been weighing on him that whole time.

>> we have prime minister tony blare with us. give us your thoughts on the passing of ted kennedy. >> caller: he was a great icon for people, not just in america, but throughout the world and the people of my generation who were brought up with the kennedy's in american politics. teddy kennedy, over time, became someone who was serious, civil figure who did enormous good, not just in the u.s., but throughout the world. i remember in relation to northern ireland where he played a tremendous part in bringing about peace there and where i was delighted to see a couple years ago when we finally got the whole thing together. he came across to northern ireland. the peace deal was finally done. he was a great inspiration to many, many people throughout the

world. >> tell us how he inspired you personally. was he an example to you, even in great britain as you decided to get into politics and public service? the thing i remember about ted kennedy was the range. i remember when my government introduced minimum wage in britain, this is something he campaigned on long in the u.s., obviously. i remember him being delighted and congratulating us on it. in terms of health care, education, inner city poverty, he was just a strong continuous voice of reason, progress and decency, actually. >> mr. prime minister thank you for calling in. we appreciate it. former prime minister tony blare. john meacham, you wanted to get

in earlier when we were talking. >> we were talking biography's one of the best books written about the kennedy's is "kennedy and nixon" by mr. matthews. i don't think, i didn't fully understand the politics of water gate in ted kennedy's role until i read chris' book. the kennedys were always just right there. in nixon's view, haunting him. in others, nobly opposing him. chris, you talked earlier about how and pat said, nixon sent some guys up. >> howard hunt. they were aware of each other.

>> to get the dirt. then, of course, three years later, ted kennedy gets his revenge, driving water gate from behind the scenes. john meacham said few people realized until they read your book. >> it went on with the nomination as well. bourque was the last standing after -- there he was as a general available to move in there and the kennedy's didn't forget that. their notion of presidential power was broad. too broad for ted kennedy. when he gave his speech, taking apart for the nominee of the court. he remembered that. his notions are a problem for me and the problem was historic and personal. so, it's an amazing saga. i thank john for pointing it out.

behind the scenes, when nixon thought he won -- well he had won re-election. midnig midnight, listening to victory at sea, all alone with chuck, you know what he said? we lost the powers again. nixon knew his career was built on alger hits. when your party is out of power in the house, you don't have the power to subpoena. you don't have the subcommittee. you can't go after anybody. watch through american history who had the power and who was running the show. the house and senate democrats, when nixon was president had more power than he had. they had the power to subpoena and the tape recordings. it's interesting to watch the elections coming up next year. barack obama has an outside chance of losing the chance. an outside chance, this time around. the generic vote is getting

dangerously close, again. he better watch. it's tough. >> pat buchanan, chris matthews talking act the power of the subpoena. gives us all one more reason to realize that you were when you told nixon, burn the tapes. >> that's right. there's no doubt about it. nixon came into office -- >> by the way, i'm not putting words in buchanan's mouth. he brags about this. >> there's not too much you can take back. >> let me ask you this. jfk and nixon had a great relationship. they fought in world war ii, came into congress at the same time. they built a close relationship. within the the best of friends, but certainly they were tied together in a way that teddy kennedy and richard nixon never were. is that safe to say? >> sure.

as i mentioned, nixon and kennedy went up and debated together on the train and pennsylvania and came back that night. i think it was the chamber of commerce. joe kennedy contributed to nixon's campaign. so, nixon and kennedy were friends, but eventually they became rivals. nixon respected kennedy's ability and certainly he was a different type of guy. kennedy made harsh comments about nixon after the election when he lost the second time. i'm sure the kennedy's felt, after nixon came back in 1968 and won the presidency of the united states and then he went on to a second term with 60% of the vote and here jack kennedy's presidency was cut short. bobby had never been able to run on a ticket and teddy kennedy

had his problems. i think a lot of the relationship with the family, by then, nixon and the families was gone. savannah guthrie, the president was supposed to speak at 8:30 from where he's staying in martha's vineyard. it's been delayed. give us a time line of what the president learned when he found out about the passing of ted kennedy and updates we can expect to hear. >> he was awakened in the middle of the night by his aid, the trip director with the white house. knocked on his door, he's vacationing on martha's vineyard this week. he's rented a farm there. we awaited his statement. there's a delay. unspecified reason. the folk that is will shoot the statement are there. it's not happening yet. what's interesting, we talked to david axelrod. he called in and shared

thoughts. in a campaign with memorable moments, the moment kennedy endorsed obama was one of the more moe mentous wasnones. it felt like the passing of a torch. it was a moment for president obama. to have kennedy say that was meaning fful for him. in a lot of ways, there was a lot of momentum at that moment. we can remember that event in the washington area. >> it was an extraordinary time, actually, when you think back. care line kennedy writing the oped for the "new york times." saying for the first time since my father passed i found something i would deem worthy to carry on the legacy.

upset the clinton es terribly, but he did pass the torch from himself to barack obama. >> he did, indeed. the back story to the entire episode, i have a firm belief that caroline kennedy made that and sent it to barack obama. she heard her father's voice and talked to her uncle,edward kennedy who was a surrogate father to her for years. senator kennedy was inclined, but i don't think he would have endorsed him that way had it not been for caroline's oped. the conflict that arose, senator kennedy told me the conflict that arose between he and former

president clinton over his endorsement, about to be endorsement of then senator obama. it's quite a story. quite a story. >> john mason. i was thinking of the wonderful picture of kennedy and nixon meeting on the tarmac, i think. kennedy is holding a copy of the advising consent, which is a portrait of the eisenhower hero washington. they should read "kennedy and nixon" then "advising consent." ted kennedy was working like hell for his brother. that was the business. they were working at least a couple stories if we don't carry whatever state teddy was working in. >> wyoming. >> was it wyoming? so, my -- anyone who bridges

advising consent through obama and the audacity of hope is, i think it's going to be one of the reasons it resinates so much. he's had a role in every political story in anyone's lifetime. >> chris matthews, it was a family business. you have had a documentary planned for some time. >> scheduled for tomorrow night. maybe it will run sooner. i can't tell. >> tell us about the documentry and the kennedy brothers and what you learned. >> i think the word brother is whatcoms to mind when you think of ted kennedy. that relationship. brother. not husband, not friend, but brother. it's so key to who he is. i've heard stories and maybe now you can tell, after a few drinks, ted in his basement showing his friends pictures of his brothers and being so emotional over it. mike, you had a bit of that. the irish sentiment that comes

to bare about your brothers. just remember, they died so young. it's not like a guy dying in the 70s when they bring the pictures back. all there was of them was youth. there never was an old person. they will always be young men. he's looking at pictures of jack who died at 46. bobby in his 30s. as they were. as he knew them. as mike pointed out, he was taught to swim by his older brother, joe, jr. at 4:00 this morning, when we were talking, the first celebration for jack, just the brothers were out. the old man saluting the hero of the day, young jack. teddy remembers now, there was once an earlier hero. i want to offer a drink to the

brother who isn't here. >> 14 years old. >> he remembered. the guy had only been gone a couple years. dying on a mission. it was almost a suicide mission carrying tnt. a missile sight. trying to catch up to his brother who was already a hero in the south pacific. also, we don't know the level of this. atoning for the old man. you know, you love your father and still feel guilty about what he believed in. not ashamed. why didn't the old man take that side of the war. why wasn't he out there with church hill and the good guys. say we got to stop it. why didn't he have that instinct? the kids did. they were american. they had irish roots, but they were damn american, the kennedy

brothers. they loved this country and died for it. they were totally committed to it. the old man was still thinking about the family and what was good for the family. the brothers were interested in the country. that's the americanization. you come to the country, make your killing and hopefully your kids are so home grown and so in love with this country, they are different than you. the kennedy boys are different than the old man. they wouldn't know how to make a nickel. he knew how to make a nickel. >> the old man was good at that. he's a brother, he was also a son. i remember reading books where you real read about how teddy had a connection with his father. teddy had to go back and tell his father who was stricken.

he couldn't speak. he had to sit down with him and tell him, dad, something's happened in california and sit there while the old man, immobile had tears streaming down his cheek. but, he stayed there with his dad. again, he was the one. the burden was on ted kennedy. he was the one, the brother that survived and the brother that had the responsibility to carry the family forward. >> if one of the reasons, i think, going to your biography question, we talk about senator kennedy in a way we would not have talked about senator humpry or some of the other great lions of the post war era. there was a conflict. there was that drama. it was shakespeare. there's no doubt about it. a history play and tragedy.

so much came to him. if you wrote this as a novel and submitted it, a good editor would say you are guilding the lily. three brothers are going to die. come on. we're not going to sell it to hollywood. >> three brothers die. the fourth feels he has a target on his back. every time the door opens in the back of the committee rom, his eyes follow who is walking in. every time he walks around the capital he goes a different way so nobody can predict which way he's go. the great tragedy of his life. the great failing of his life. not a coincidence. one year after he lost his third brother. not justifying at all. looking at the human side of the story, then, of course, we heard the story, i think in '69 or '70 where he was coming back from alaska -- >> '70.

>> '70. after that, he was drunk and out of control and yelling eskimo power on the plane to a horrified press corps. this is a guy who had to sort through one tragedy after another in a public way. not only with a target on his back believing he would be the next brother shot, but the man carrying the burdens of an entire american dynasty. >> i went back, not long ago and look t at every old cover of "newsweek." kennedy holds the record of will he run for president. >> i remember reading it every four years. >> every four years. >> '84 they had the shot of him sitting on a hill with flowers around him. will he run? >> you can almost feel sorry for the washington bureau when they

said let's get the teddy cover. >> there's teddy with his bags packed, sitting in front of the gate, ready to come in. >> imagine living with that. the moment your third brother is gunned down. everyone expects you to become the most powerful man in the world in a nuclear age. how many cousins, how many nieces and nephews and it's a wonder he didn't just drink himself into permanent ob livan. you can certainly see on a human level how it would have been a understandable response. >> we all know people who say far less tragedy in their life who have died. who have not fought back or gotten out of bed or kept going. in this case, a man who endured tragedy. a man who made horrific mistakes in