president of the united states. >> in january 2009, kennedy makes an emotional return to capitol hill. he appears strong at the historic inauguration of president obama. but a seizure during the inaugural lunch causes concern. >> right now a part of me is with him. and i think that's true for all of us. this is a joyous time. but it's also sobering time. >> still, his cancer battle does not dampen his spirits. >> when the kennedy story is told 100 years from now, it will have to be told as each brother fell the next one took over. so junior died in world war ii. and then jack kennedy became the kennedy to take the banner of political life over for the family. when jack died, it was bobby.

and when bobby died, it was teddy. and after they were all dead, he remained on the scene for decades as a public figure, as a senator, and somebody who believed in the causes that they had believed in and tried to carry them forward. >> senator edward kennedy spent decades in congress fighting for liberal causes. his legacy, public service and his concern for america's least powerful. as he said so many years ago, the work goes on, the cause endures, and the dream will never die. that's all for this edition of "headliners and legend," i'm lester holt. thank you for watching. >> teddy.

let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in new york. ted kennedy was the last hurrah, the big baritone out there demanding justice for the left out people, the african-americans, native americans, the old person, the immigrant family that wanted to be american. the sick scared person waiting in the er for hours with something really wrong. why would a big looking guy like him, a rich guy, spend his life worrying about the people left out? was it tribal memory of his own people left out, sent away, told to go back where they came from? was it those old boston signs that said, irish need not apply? what was it that made health care such a crusade for this guy? who do you know who has a broken back who spends his life and time thinking about other people's troubles? was it because his older trouble was secretly sick most of his life? bobby liked to say of him if a

mosquito ever bit jack, it was the mosquito that would die. was it his sister rosemary who never got the right care. this much we know for sure. he had two brothers shot and thought gun control made a certain sense. he saw violence in northern ird and wanted peace. he saw a war coming in iraq and voted against it and said it was the best vote of his life and yes, he was human. so human in the poet's words, he was the emperor of ice cream, the man fitted with life when everyone else was grieving and lost, the muscular one. and too many funerals, too many brothers lost, he was the man filled with life. sometimes too much of it. the one we crowded to. leaned against, needed. edward m. kennedy, ted, teddy, his people fought the nickname and said call him edward. they protested. but those who cared for him the tens of millions loved with his nieces and nef fuse called him, teddy, the emperor of ice cream, the big guy filled with life at those too many funerals.

now there is his. let's bring in a pair of msnbc political analysts, news week's howard fineman and the "washington post" eugene robinson. howard, you and my friend eugene i met ted in the 1960s. i was standing next to him when the report came in that his brother bobby was shot. i was standing there with him and i stood with him year in and year out. there was no greater senator in the history of this country in my opinion. >> howard fineman, your thoughts s that too high a praise? i think not. what do you think? >> i don't think it is too high. i think ted kennedy stood for the proposition that government can help the common good and the common man and woman.

he was to the manner born but he understood that government's role in america at times was to pitch in and help the least of these. and i think in that sense it was partly his fate, irish background, catholic faith. he was a -- from that part of catholic teaching that talks about using the common good to help all. and that's what he did. that's what he stood for and should be remembered for. >> i remember being at church one time with senator kennedy as a church goer. the catholic church in washington. and you forget sometimes who you're dealing with. yitzhak rabin was just assassinated and the priest never mentioned the fact. he didn't know what happened that afternoon. you know, it's amazing, you walked with history. you rubbed shoulders with ted den i can. tonight is a day of history. >> it's incredible. ted kennedy would have been in the senate for more than four decades. and he never, ever sought the leadership position in that

house. he made it clear from the time that he gave that great speech in new york vofrg mr. carter that he was going to be an incredible servant in the u.s. senate. and he achieved that goal. today, health care would not be in trouble if ted kennedy was the architect that would not be five bills. there would be somebody and ted kennedy, somebody on the republican side who understood how to follow quality leadership and mr. obama, the president of these united states would be better off. >> mr. mayor, let me ask you about a historic question. our after cone american community is so big and diverse, as you know. it seems to me you and i grew up and you most clearly grew up in the south and came to san francisco for your career in law and politics that ted kennedy was a brother two of brothers, bob and jacken i d kennedy thatd

that honor of being treated as heroes to so many black families. >> it was. this was a privileged person, a person born in the commonwealth of massachusetts. a person from a family with great opportunities and great resources. yet, none of us ever looked at him that way. as he walked through the fields with us in mississippi, helping to produce the voter registration numbers that ultimately came the foundation for the democratic party, it was ted kennedy. the way in which he walked with cesar chavez, it was ted kennedy. i maintain that the assassination of the president kennedy, the assassination of bobby kennedy imposed upon this extraordinary human being the opportunity and the responsibility to make good on the promise from those two brothers and, believe me, his years in the senate shows that he did and every african-american in the country knows that as well as every

latino. >> howard, i think you were there when i remembered and it came back to me what our friend, ellen simpson of wyoming, the former senator said about ted kennedy. when somebody was criticizing him, if you had gone through what you had gone through in life, you'd be drooling on the floor. 41 years of avoiding the assassined bullets. 41 years knowing his brothers were shot for fighting for public life. his brothers were all doing their public duty as they saw it. what do you think about that? it is something about the right-wing. here's a guy that faced the possibility that he'd be like his brothers and end up that way all those years. >> well, he faced the possibility of more violence in his family, his own safety.

he faced the consequences of his own mistakes, his own deep and tragic mistakes. and he was human almost in the extreme. i mine of all the people i've ever covered in politics, i -- if can you quantify humanness, there is nobody more fully exuberantly but also tragically human than ted kennedy. and the people who opposed him who tried to make him into a cartoon character, i don't think they ever fully succeeded. because people could see on television, they could see through his actions, they could see the real person that was ted kennedy. and one of the things that makes the kennedy family so riveting in our hearts and mints is the fact that they we minds is that they were a family. their family story is to intertwined with our family as a country. you can't separate the two.

we live the issues of the day and our fears and our hopes through that family. and teddy understood that. and embraced it the. >> let me get back to the mayor, mayor brown. you mentioned that ted would have known how to handle the health care issue while he was sick for so many months now, he couldn't lead the fight. what needs to be done i don't want to get into the weeds on the issue bhaushgts broad strokes need to be taken? >> i think first and foremost, president obama must announce that the health care bill will be called ted kennedy's bill. i think instantly members in both houses will have a different attitude. i think he needs to also go back and see exactly what ted kennedy was saying before he became ill last may. and use those words, use those ideas as his method by which to say this is what we ought to do. and i think if he does that, he'd have a good shot using the death of senator kennedy as the vehicle to produce health care reform in america.

>> do you believe, mr. mayor, that country has the mood right now, given the economic challenges facing us, the loss of equity people feel, the loss of property value, the loss of income, the loss of the prospect for their children doing as well as they've done in life. do you think given all those pressures they're willing to be big about health care? >> i their they're willing to accept the idea as ted kennedy would have so enunciated. you must spike the costs of health care for all americans, particularly those who are currently paying the price. ted kennedy would have said five, six, seven years from now you'll be paying double what you're taking if you leave the system intact as it is today. he would not have gone to the issue of how do you cover people not covered until he had developed a relationship with those of us who are currently picking up the tab. i think that's what mr. obama has to do. and he has to do it in memory of ted kennedy. >> is there anyone in the senate

right now, howard, i know it's a tough call, who might be willing to spend the next 10 or 20 years learning how to be ted kennedy, to be a leader? the senate, not a hot shot for the evening news and cable networks. you with unite and lead. who could do this? anybody? give me a couple names? >> well that, is a great question. and i wish i had a ready answer for you. it's interesting that one of the people who might have stepped most clearly and closely and comfortably into that role was somebody that president obama picked to be his running mate, joe biden. joe biden is well liked in the senate koshgs cross the aisle. my concern as i watch it as a citizen an not just a journalist is the senate used to be the place where bipartisanship was not only possible but favored. it was the way did you things. it's the way you wanted to do things. it was for the good of the country to come together in the end after a tough debate and make a deal. i don't see that ethic alive in

the senate anymore. and ted kennedy was very embodiment of it. right off the top of my head, i don't see any one person who can step into that role. i just don't. >> let me -- mayor, your thoughts on that? you were the top legislator in california for all those years. i worked with liberals for so many years. tip o'neill and also frank moss of utah and he had mus beingy. and i was totally devoted to someone like phil hart of michigan. we've had great senators over the years and n. both parties. >> that was a young man appointed to the senate from the state of colorado last january. his name was michael bennett. i believe that michael bennett would have become ted kennedy's -- the next ted kennedy if he chooses to stay in the u.s. senate. i think he has the quality, the potential, and i think maybe he may be the guy you got to look at, howard. >> well, that's one hell of an endorsement, i got to say. >> i work with his father doug

bennett on the budget committee. he grew up with the right lineage. i never heard them pronounce him. >> what is interesting about the fact that the mayor mentioned that is that senator bennett is only recently in politics. i mean he come out of school, you know, being a school superintendent. he come out from outside the system into the system at a mature age. i think that's an interesting comment in itself on public attitudes towards elected officials. i think we need people who can try to restore a sense of faith and the idea of politics and the idea of government. that's what president obama was selling in addition to himself when he got elected with a pretty strong vote last year. and that's what we need to recapture and the country on the right and on the left. >> well, we've got some great guests coming up tonight. mayor brown, thank you. willy brown of san francisco. thank you for joining us, as always. thank you, howard fineman as always. coming up, ted kennedy's towering legacy. we have a great guest.

the former special counsel to ted kennedy. later, former first lady nancy reagan is going to be calling in to talk about her friend ted kennedy. nancy reagan coming later in this edition of "hardball." we'll be right back. >> for me this is a season of hope. new hope for a justice and fair prosperity for the many and not just for the few. new hope. and this is the cause of my life, new hope. that we will break the old gridlock and guarantee that every american, north, south, east, west, young, old have decent quality health care as a fundamental right and not a privilege. on healthy hair?

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>> for me, a few hours ago, this campaign came to an end. for all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on. the cause endures. the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die. your boss asked you to help his brother become a better candidate for the united states senate in massachusetts. his name was ted kennedy. what was it like?

>> i first have to set the context because ted kennedy, the president's brother, president, he want was opposed by eddie mccormick. and the president had already been accused of nepotism for making his brother bob attorney general. he certainly didn't want to endanger his relations with the speaker and the house at that difficult time. so he announced that no one from the white house or the administration was to go up and intervene in massachusetts politics. i could tell you off the record because the gridiron club is say credit, but jfk off the record

speech to the gridiron club made a play on words about the fact that he was not sending combat troops to vietnam. he was sending only instructors and advisors. he paid no attention over the hawks and the doves over vietnam in which the hawks accused the doves of saying they would rather be red than dead. so jfk said to the gridiron, i've announced that we're not sending any officials from the white house or the administration into massachusetts senate race. then he said, of course, we might send a few instructors and advisors. >> and you were one of them. >> and he then said all i'll say is i won't say ow effective it

will be but i'll tell you, i'd rather be ted than ed. he then asked bobby and his attorney general brother and me to very quietly, privately go up to the cape on the day before. and bobby and i sat in the family dining room at the table with teddy. i used the same preparation i would always use which was to read a list of questions, including the most difficult ones i could imagine. just to make sure that he had all the facts he needed to handle a question and that he was comfortable with that

question. and try to help him filling in information where he was not. bobby joined in to some extent. but satisfied himself whether brother ted was ready or -- for that. that night in a -- i think it was a high school auditorium if i remember correctly in mid state that the debate took place and the toughest moment came not when any of the questions that i had prepared were asked by the moderateors. the toughest moment came when eddy mccormack turned and said almost sneeringly, if your last name was moore, edward moore kennedy, if your last name were moore instead of kennedy, you swro

wouldn't have a chance. that's one we didn't think about. of course, teddy looked a little flustered. but he relaxed. he came back with a very statesman like answer about how proud he was that his name and his brother. he did okay. and he won. >> yes. >> interestingly enough, if you got another minute -- interestingly enough, a year plus later teddy was scheduled to appear on meet the press, the "hardball" of its day and national television. and it was the sunday a week after the cuban missile crisis ended. the president knew that the rest of the world would consider anything said by the president's brother on television as being the position of the president and the inside story about the cuban missile crisis.

sow sent me up -- actually, it was the actual weekend the crisis ended, to brief teddy about the cuban missile crisis and i enjoyed that responsibility as well. all these years have gone by and he doesn't need any briefings from me, you, or other experts. he has a superb team of his own. and he has proven in those 46 -- or 47 years to be a superb united states senator. >> what's the difference if you had to describe the personalities among the three kennedys, bobby, jack kennedy who you worked for and ted? >> bobby was more passionate, emotional. jack was more intellectual. and perhaps for eloquent. i say that modestly. and ted was more at home in the

united states senate. his two older brothers were impatient with the deliberate, as they call it, pace of the senate where so little gets done and procedure is so important. ted was willing to work with that. he was also willing with his personality and fabulous smile to reach across the aisle and work with republicans who were willing to join him in co-sponsoring legislation for causes in which they both believed. it was quite a conservative republican that said when ted kennedy gets up on the senate floor to speak, we all pay attention. >> wow. >> because we know he's done his home work. we know he has not only a terrific staff but a terrific mind. and what he has to say on annish sue going to be worth hearing.

>> it's great having you on. one of my heroes. ted sore enson, counsel to the president. the greatest speechwriter in history. we'll have more in the life of senator ted kennedy. in a moment, we'll talk to nancy reagan. she's going to call in from california. what a great honor that's going to be. plus, a special preview of our documentary tonight which is on for an hour starting at 9:00 eastern. we're very proud of it here at nbc. the kennedy brothers. we worked on this for months. it just happens to be ready just at this sad time for premiering tonight at 9:00. 9:00 eastern tonight, "the kennedy brothers for an hour." >> we are the party. we are the party of the new freedom, the new deal and the new frontier. we have always been the party of hope. so this year let us offer new hope. new hope to an america uncertain about the present but unsurpassed in its potential for the future. sometimes the best way to get closer...

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and some day long after the convention and long after the signs come down and the crowds stop cheering and the band stops playing, may it be said that we kept the faith. may it be received our party in 1980 that we found our faith again.

>> wow. welcome back to "hardball." tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern, the premier of our documentary, "the kennedy brothers." the look at the lives of ted i did kennedy, john kennedy and robert kennedy and joseph kennedy, jr.ment all four kennedy brothers and their amazing sag yachlt here is a look at ted den i can's speech at the 1980 democratic convention in new york. for me, a few hours ago, this campaign came to an end. the works goes on. the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die. >> they got to see the ted kennedy they should have gotten to see earlier in that campaign. >> by convention's end, the balloons falling and the democrat ikz chanting president

carter, kennedy's speechwriter counciled him to be a good team player. >> i said you're going to raise his hand, aren't you? he said yes. i went up and he went out in the audience and it never happened. >> and people still shouting, we want ted. we want ted. >> and finally, i guess at the very end there was some sort of, you know, brief hand touch. but it was on full view of the nation. absolute physical contempt for the senator toward the president. up next, fancy reagan is going to join us with her thoughts on ted kennedy. we'll have much more on "hardball," the place for politics. >> an extraordinary life on this earth has come to an end. an extraordinarily good that he

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i'm kristina brown. taliban attacks killed two u.s. service members wednesday. this brings the total number of american troops killed so far this month to 43. right now july stands as the deadliest month of the war with 44 u.s. troops killed in action. sshg is being governor mark sanford is rejecting another call for his resignation. this time from his lieutenant governor and fellow republican. sanford said he wouldn't be railroaded out of office by political opponents. the government is releasing the final talley from the popular cash for clunkers trade in program.

more than 690,000 vehicles were sold under the program for a tote afl $2.9 billion in rebates. dominick dunne died at his home in manhattan wednesday. the special xpant was best known for his coverage of crimes committed by the rich and famous. dunne was 83 years old. now back to "hardball." my brother need to the be idealized or be large in death than he was in life, to be remembered simply as a good and decent man who sought wrong and tried to right it, sought suffering and tried to heal it, saw war and tried to stop it. >> that was, of course, ted kennedy's famous eulogy of his brother robert in 1968.

president obama will deliver the eulogy this saturday at senator kennedy's funeral. we're back now. we're joined right now by a real treat, former first lady nancy reagan is with us by phone from california. mrs. reagan, thank you so much for taking the time to call us tonight. >> you're welcome. >> tell us about your thoughts, nancy, about ted kennedy. >> oh, well, i think it came as a surprise to a lot of people that we were as close to ted as we were -- are, were. because we were obviously different parties. but we were close. and didn't make any difference to ronny or to ted that one was a republican and one was a democrat. and, of course, there is more of that today. but we were close friends. and, of course, i became close

to ted because of the stem cell. >> it seems to me that great presidents like your husband seem to pay tribute oftentimes to other great presidents of the other party. so many times i've heard. this you know this. president reagan spoke fondly of his memory of franklin roosevelt. and, of course, the kennedys, your husband paid tribute to robert kennedy after taking office, delivering to him, giving to him an award that carter administration held up. >> i know. >> did you notice that the mountain peaks seem to notice each other. >> i haven't thought of it like. that but, yes, you're right. and i don't know why that award wasn't given to bobby. but it wasn't. so ronnie gave it to ethel. >> let me ask you about ted all these years. you know, you were -- well, you were around all the kennedys. they came on so it fast. jack kennedy came out of nowhere in the late '50s.

and then the same with bobby. what do you think was different among all the brothers? did you sort of notice the difference among these guys? >> the difference between them? >> among them, yes? >> no. i didn't know the others that well really. so, no, i didn't. >> let me ask you about stem cell and how it worked. what kind of an effort did you think ted kennedy made on behalf of really getting federal money for stem cell research on issues like alzheimer's? >> well, just getting stem cell bill passed was a great effort. and i drove everybody crazy because i kept calling. i'm sure the poor men when they were told that i was on the phone again, i would say lord, she's there again. she'll never give up. and, of course, i didn't. and neither did ted.

>> a lot of republicans seem to have opposed you on that. >> oh, yes. >> and you stood out there on your own. i mean there are other people that backed you. arlen specter when he was a republican was on your side. and people like orrin hatch on your side, too. >> yes, that's right. that's right. but, you know, it all worked out. ted and i worked well together. and it just worked out. >> do you think we're going to get anywhere in our lifetimes dealing with diseases where stem cell can play a part? >> oh, yes, i do. yes, i do. first of all, you have to be optimistic, right? >> right. >> you have to look on the bright side. no, i do think so. >> let me ask you about ronald reagan, the end of the cold war. jack kennedy, cuban missile crisis. does it seem like presidencies

are defined after all the years that these men served by maybe one moment, one great achievement? >> how is that, chris? >> isn't the achievements, the individual achievements that really define these presidencies? i mean, you know, you were there until the very end and in the cold war with president reagan. >> yeah. >> and jack kennedy, ted kennedy's proernlg was remembered for the cuban missile crisis. >> uh-huh. >> doesn't it seem like these issues are the ones that matter, the big ones are the ones that count, the home runs? >> oh, i guess so, yes. >> okay. i'm leading the witness here. do you have any final thoughts on ted kennedy tonight on this night in history? >> i'll miss him very much. and i'm sure we'll all miss him. we would have gotten farther in the whole health issue if ted had been in there fighting. >> yeah. >> are you hopeful we get a

health bill? >> i hope so. i hope so. i don't know enough about the bill to discuss it. but i hope we get something, yes. >> okay. well thank you very much, nancy reagan, former first lady taking the time tonight to give her thoughts and feelings about the loss of senator ted kennedy. we're going to have much more on the life and death of senator kennedy as we go on tonight and continue our edition tonight, our second edition here at 7:00. his actions will be felt so many in the united states senate. nancy reagan just mentioned over this health care bill. his leadership was essential and has been missing. we'll be right back. >> as long as i have a voice in the united states senate, it's going to be for that democratic platform plank that provides decent quality health care north and south, east and west, for all americans as a matter of right and not a privilege. you'r. thanks. so is our bike insurance. all the coverage you need at a great price.

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my friends, i ask you to join in this historic journey to have the courage to choose change. it's time again for a new generation of leadership. it is time now for barack obama. let's bring in a pair of msnbc political analysts, news week's howard fineman and the "washington post" eugene robinson.

joe died fighting during world war ii and jack was killed by a real communist lover, lee harvey oswald and bobby was killed the torch has been passed down in the belief system. i want you to go first, gene. how well will we be able to handle president obama this enormous responsibility of being the new brother? >> well, that's quite a responsibility. to be the keeper of the torch of camelot, i guess you would call it. it's a fascinating thing that such a torch exists. that there is this legacy that we all sense being passed down from holder to holder. clearly obama now is a reposito

of the hopes and dreams of the people -- of the accolades of camelot, of the people who believe in that vision of america. but he's not of the family. there is not the sense of leagues that there was with the kennedys. and none of them had to do this. there was a sense that these were people of great privilege who were giving something to the country, their time, their effort. president obama is a different person. his story is no less inspiring and he's no less compelling as a personality. but it's a different sest circumstanset of circumstances. i'm not sure we can see the torch in the same way. >> people like craig and

caroline kennedy herself in many ways to me they're inspiring people to me just as public servants over the years. especially ted and craig and people like that. they're the ones that gave me a sense there was something there with president obama that was politically and nationally special. what did you think about the fact that those people backing him so early in this race for president last year? >> well, i certainly think that both figures, both senator kennedy and president obama ingender intense loyalty for the people who work for them. you never got the sense that president obama sort of taught people -- kennedy taught people, we're hired guns. they go from candidate to candidate. you don't really care about the person very much. they have a certain core issues. but they work for whoever pays them. president obama has people that are really loyal to him are loyal to him and loyal to what he wants to accomplish.

that will help him a lot. it says something good about him and them. a lot of powerful people are difficult to work for. you won't believe that, chris. and it's a good sign where a powerful person like president obama, powerful person like ted den i can has loyal people who work for them for a long time. >> gene, one thing that two men have in common, president obama and you certainly hope in common with ted kennedy is both men had the instinct. and i would say the value system to know that the iraq war was not an american war in the sense of our values. it was an aggressive war. it is something we have never done before, that kind of war. almost unique among the democrats, they said, no. and ted said it was the best vote of his entire career. >> that's true. i think that's an important link between the two. i think that was very important to senator kennedy's developing

the sense that the heir to the legacy, that he then held was, in fact, president obama. that he was the person to carry forward the vision not just the vision of the democratic party but the vision of the country. that we could represent with the shorthanded camelot, question talk about it in terms of the legacy of the other brothers who went before him. or we could just call it the liberal wing of the democratic party. but whatever we call it, he -- i think of the iraq war and their shared opposition for the war was an important element in kennedy's conviction that obama was next in line. >> i think -- go ahead, roger. >> i think it was a key recently, chris. when kennedy endorsed president obama and was a huge endorsement in january of '08, the first

thing that kennedy mentioned was the iraq war. and as i wrote at the time, it was not just an endorsement. it was a rebuke. it was a rebuke to both hillary and bill clinton. and the first thing that senator kennedy mentioned was that while some stood silent and some went along, president obama opposed this war from the beginning. and that was a direct rebuke of hillary clinton. second thing that he mentioned was president obama feels passionately about things, he doesn't demonize those he opposes. that was a rebuke by bill clinton by ted kennedy. a very strong moment. it was just more than saying i want obama to win. it was kennedy's way of saying i only want him to win but he's a better person to hold this job. and the main thing he said is president obama is ready from day one, which was from the clinton's big selling point, to hold this office. >> you know, that's the language

of my heart you're speaking there. eugene robinson, stay with us. we'll have more thoughts about the loss of ted kennedy today. take a look at how the sox paid tribute sto senator ted kennedy tonight at fenway. >> we now ask you to join us in a moment of silence as we remember the life and legacy of senator edward moore kennedy. [ "taps" plays ] (announcer) refree introduces protection, times ten.

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we're back with a little time. first, the speech on saturday, the president of the united states will offer the eulogy at the catholic mass for senator

kennedy. will that speech deal with the future or the past? >> i think the speech has to deal with his legacy. so it will deal mostly with the past, i think. and by implication the future. but i think it will talk about senator kennedy's enormous contribution over the years. i would be surprised if the president didn't mention issues such as health care because obviously that's a big part of it. i think it will be a speech about the man, about his ideas, about his mission, about his vision of america. and the implication will be to carry that forward. >> roger, will he torque it forward? >> i agree with gene. it's about, i think, not only senator kennedy's actual legacy, but the ability to leave a legacy. if you are hyper partisan and all you care about is the next