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by his casket at the jfk presidential library. new details about his final days coming up. >> in washington, calculation on what happens now to what the late senator called the cause of my life -- the fight for national health care reform. it's been a challenging summer for president obama's health reform agenda, but chances remain strong that kennedy's party can finally achieve something close to the vision he shared with obama. we'll talk to the president's health and human services secretary, kathleen sebelius. and on tape from "the new york times" meet the brave soldiers risking their lives to save their comrades with an air ambulance unit on the front lines of the war in afghanistan. >> i'm going to do what i can do to pull him out and if someone is standing in the way of his safety it's a bad day for them. >> good day everyone. i'm john harwood of cnbc and the

new york times and this is "the new york times" special edition on msnbc. this hour, remembering ted kennedy. mourners are still passing through jfk memorial library. tens of thousands of people from across the country have waited in line for hours yesterday and today. we're in boston at the jfk presidential library. mike, talk about the secession of events that is going to unfold today. we know the senator's body arrived yesterday. he's been lying in repose. there's a service tonight and then more tomorrow. talk a little bit about what's on tap. >> that's right. well, this is the public part of it now, john. the opportunity for the public by the tens of thousands as you say to pay their last respects. i have to say that since before 8:00 this morning which had been the scheduled start of today's public viewing the lines have been as long as a quarter mile, eight across, very deep, moving very steadily. not -- certainly a sad group but

not morose but representing all the demographic groups for which ted kennedy fought his entire 47-year senate career. as tip o'neil once said all politics is local. as you say, after this, tonight starting at 7:00 eastern time, there will be a memorial service at which there will be many speakers. vice president joe biden leading the list, four of senator kennedy's colleagues as well. the evening will end we are told with caroline kennedy, ted kennedy's niece. that's today and tonight. tomorrow will be the funeral mass in boston at a church a couple miles from here, our lady of perpetual help basilica after which the body will be moved to washington for the final procession. past the senate building and to arlington national cemetery where he'll be buried near the bodies of his two brothers jack and bobby. >> we know and we can see in fact in the shot up right now of

a group of people at all times for one hour after the other sitting in vigil, people drawn -- staffers, friends from his 47-year career in the senate. what can you tell us, if you know, about how those people were selected and that part of the ceremony? >> anything that's separate from the public viewing has been by invitation. there was the massachusetts delegation at one point which came in. as you say, some of the senator's staffers over the years who have come here as well. tonight's event is by invitation, family and close friends only, though it will be publicized by pool camera starting at 7:00 tonight. that's the way it's gone the entire time here. i should say, too, that they've now cut off the line for the public viewing so that while yesterday some 21,000 people were said to have paid their respects probably at least that number today have passed by the front door here, gone in, and paid their respects, as well. john? >> obviously an impressive display of emotion by the crowd

as well as staffers and associates. thanks so much. now make sure you stay with msnbc for continuing coverage. we're live in boston all day with special coverage of his memorial beginning tonight at 6:00 p.m. eastern. we'll carry kennedy's funeral tomorrow live and his burial as well at arlington national cemetery and make sure you tune into your nbc station this sunday morning for a special tribute to senator kennedy on "meet the press" with david gregory. check your local listings. now to the senator's nearly 47-year legacy in washington and the health care fight he believes behind. the chief congressional correspondent for "the new york times" joins us in washington. let me ask a devil's advocate question from the beginning. that is, we've heard so many tributes about how ted kennedy is one of the greatest senators in u.s. history but also that the fight for national health care has been the cause of his life. why hasn't he -- why hasn't he in combination with his

colleagues been able to get that done? >> i think there's been resistance over the years, obviously. this has been one of the toughest problems the country has ever faced and there hasn't been a consensus. there has been incremental changes and as you remember the medicare prescription drug program but i don't think there's any doubt that democrats are going to try and use the inspiration of senator kennedy to regain some momentum on health care. they've been back on their heels pretty much all summer. >> well, one of the things we've seen as you indicated with senator kennedy behind them have been incremental changes when the further reaching reforms he sought failed -- things like health care portability with nancy kassenbaum, a republican, or the children's health insurance program with orrin hatch, also a republican. >> that's right. >> is it your sense, carl, having covered congress for a long time, that incremental reform is where we're headed or is this going to be something bigger in your estimation? >> you know, it remains to be seen obviously but i think it probably will be slightly bigger than incremental reform.

it's going to be a definition game. i think one, even though they've had a tough summer, i think one lesson democrats are really focusing on right now is that nothing would be the big defeat. they are intent on getting something, even the people who disagree with the scope of it. i'm hearing a lot from people. we need to rethink maybe how far we're going to go. but i still see their efforts at fairly substantial reform, not say just simply health care portability. >> well, carl, my reporting tells me the same thing. let me ask you another question, though. >> we talk to the same people. >> exactly right. democrats have 60 votes once al franken was seated. now they have 59 because the senator is gone. if, in fact, the massachusetts legislature does not change its laws and we have several months in which there are only 59 democratic votes, how much of a difference in this process does the loss of that one vote make, or is it not so much? >> you know, in some respects it's not so much. obviously, having senator

kennedy here personally would have been a major difference just in terms of his personality, but there was a recognition in the senate that he wasn't going to be able to vote especially later in the year. they've sort of accepted 59 which makes their attempts to get one or two republicans that much more critical. senator olympia snowe obviously of maine becomes very essential here and they'd like to get at least another one because they could easily lose one or two democrats. but, you know, it is a numbers game but i don't think it's a big change. >> are democrats as far as you know in washington expecting that in fact the legislature will act and they will get a replacement quicker rather than later? >> you mean the boston legislature? >> yes. >> i think there is a sense, you know, when senator kennedy's letter was made public, you know, it sort of fell flat and there was a sense that it wasn't going to happen. now there seems to be a sense that it will happen and it's still not going to be immediate but, you know, it could be before the end of the year or early next year, which would be under a special election.

i think that's the sense right now but as the previous reporter said all politics is local and they have to deal with that in massachusetts. >> carl hulse thanks for being with us. >> thanks, john. >> as we were discussing, a special election to replace senator kennedy will be held either january 19th or 26th of next year. governor patrick is legally required under current through choose either one of those dates and notify town and city officials by early next week. under state law the election must be held between 145 and 160 days of a vacancy but, of course, as carl and i were just discussing democrats are pushing for a change in that law to allow the governor to appoint a successor to serve in the time before that special election takes place. now, president obama will be giving the eulogy at tomorrow's services in boston for senator kennedy and will then return to his vacation on martha's vineyard. after a couple days back in washington, next week the president's planning to take another break. you could call it vacation take

2. obama will head to camp david next wednesday, staying at the presidential retreat until next sunday. now we can see senator kerry arriving at the jfk library where senator kennedy's body is lying in state and you can see the mourners continuing to pass by that casket. senator kennedy, his colleague for the last two decades, of course, got crucial support from ted kennedy during his own presidential run in 2004. jrkd serving in the shadow of one of the greatest legislators in history but of course achieving distinction in his own right. now he's embracing his wife and teresa heinz kerry, other senators arriving later in the day, chris dodd his close friend from the state of connecticut is expected as well as a couple of other democratic colleagues and some republicans as well, i believe, orrin hatch of utah, john mccain of arizona, the

republican nominee in 2008, a staunch political opponent of senator kennedy for so much of both of their careers but somebody who had a personal relationship with ted kennedy and tried in vain with kennedy under president bush to achieve immigration reform in a comprehensive way. that was another cause in addition to health care that ted kennedy championed that has not been realized. president obama promises to take it up himself but action is not expected this year. that's likely to be put off until 2010 at the earliest. there you can see the pictures of constituents and family members sitting by the casket of senator ted kennedy at the jfk memorial library. we'll be right back. back playing in the afternoon. excedrin back and body has two ingredients to block and relieve the pain. doesn't your whole body deserve excedrin strength relief? excedrin. what ache?

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you're looking at live pictures of the jfk presidential library in boston, where senator ted kennedy's body is lying in repose. you can see senator john kerry, his long-time colleague in the senate from massachusetts, democratic presidential candidate a few years ago, with his wife, teresa heinz kerry, greeting others, marking this occasion a few hours before a private ceremony will be held tonight. the funeral service will be tomorrow, the funeral mass, and ted kennedy moving through the crowd -- i'm sorry -- john kerry moving through the crowd and greeting so many of the constituents that he shared in common with ted kennedy for many years. they shared a common political philosophy, pursued many of the same things, and now you see john kerry at the casket putting his right hand along with teresa heinz on the casket and making the sign of the cross.

welcome back to "the new york times" special edition. now it's time for our look at the sharpest insights from new york times columnists. this week we have just one topic. ted kennedy's historic career in the u.s. senate. we've got this from the kennedy biographer, a long-time new york times reporter who argues the youngest kennedy brother was under estimated even as a freshman senator, widely considered at that time to be unqualified. quote, in his earliest years in the senate when some dismissed him as a playboy or as not very smart, he showed the instincts of a natural adam clymer writes. next up "the new york times" editorial board notes kennedy always held tight to the liberal rallying cry of his failed presidential campaign. quote, his mantra was simple and ennobling. the work goes on. the cause endures. the hope still lives. and the dream shall never die. in his final speeches, he explicitly handed that mantra to

president obama the editorial board writes. and conservative columnist david brooks praises kennedy for bearing down on legislative dirty work after missing out on the glamour of the white house that his brother john f. kennedy had enjoyed and leaving a legacy of accomplishment as a result. david brooks writes, ted kennedy is from the most charismatic family in the history of american politics and yet he succeeded by transforming himself into something kind of boring. now, an american serviceman who has been killed by a roadside bomb in afghanistan making august the deadliest month of the war for u.s. soldiers. on "the new york times" website you can take a look at an extraordinary piece of video, an inside look at time spent with the 168th med evac air ambulance unit in afghanistan. an increase in taliban attacks has meant an increase in the work load for those who rescue injured soldiers from the front lines and an increase in the pressure they place on themselves. >> there are people out there who want to kill us and they

want to kill my people, my countrymen. i feel i have a personal responsibility. i don't know why i'm getting worked durning-anyway i have a personal responsibility and obligation to the guy on the ground. the guy is there risking his life every day to protect my family back home and i'm going to do what i can do to pull him out. and if someone is standing in the way of his safety, like i said, it's a bad day for them. >> you can see that entire remarkable report on the brave soldiers in that unit at video.ny times.com. still ahead in the caucus, a look at the life and death of senator ted kennedy. how his passing will affect the effort to reform health care. plus, up to six wildfires are raging in california and forcing thousands to evacuate. an update on the situations just

ahead. ( siren blaring ) special interest groups are trying to block progress n health care reform, derailing the debate with myths and scare tactics. desperately trying to stop you from discovering that reform won't force you to give up your current coverage. you'll still be able to choose your doctor and insurance plan. tell congress not to let myths get in the way of fixing what's broken with health care. learn the facts at healthactionnow.org.

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call now or go to lifelock.com. ♪ we've been watching these live pictures of the public viewing for senator ted kennedy. now let's bring in our good friend, editor of the "new york times" week in review and book review section who is this week himself writing about kennedy and that boring work of governing the country that we mentioned in that david brooks column the other day. sam is also the author of the forthcoming book "the death of conservativism" just out in a couple of days. sam, talk a little bit about the work of governance and what makes ted kennedy different from so many others who serve in a body that's often about flash and dash and television skills rather than legislation. >> well, you know, john, one of the interesting things about ted kennedy throughout his career,

particularly in the early part, was that he was seen as the kennedy who really liked retail politics, who was great with crowds. he didn't seem to have the aristocrat ik distance his older brothers did but, in fact, his talents lay elsewhere. it lay in the very slow, glacial, pains taking process of crafting legislation. he worked at it very hard. he learned from masters like richard russell in the senate who has also been a mentor to lyndon johnson, another great legislator. one of the things i look at in my essay which i think is going online before too long and will be in sunday's paper is that kennedy's idea of governance was premised in the big vision of new deal liberalism. that all the forces of government could be marshalled to improve the conditions for the greatest number of people, in particular the excluded and the disadvantaged. and what that meant was that you had to make gains wherever you could. so the programs we're hearing about, the meals on wheels, the

aids programs, the community health centers, all the rest, they were very small ideas in one sense and they were -- yet they grew out of the new deal, which -- whose great leader, franklin roosevelt, was elected in 1932, the very year ted kennedy was born. >> sam, what i think is so fascinating about this is as you say he was to the end a new deal liberal. but unlike his brothers, he spent most of his career in a conservative era, the one you're writing about in your book, and, yet, he built this huge legislative portfolio. how did he manage to get done what other liberals were having difficulty doing throughout the era of nixon and reagan and george w. bush? >> well, one reason is that our politics became so focused on cultural debate and battles, who was winning the rhetorical war,

that people kind of overlooked governance, itself. remember, the great republican leaders, beginning with barry goldwater and really capped by ronald reagan had no interest in governance. ronald reagan said government is not the solution. it's the problem. and so he led a kind of counterrevolution against government. what that did was to open the way for those who quietly, as you say, worked behind the scenes to get the gains where they could. now, there's a further paradox to this which is we sometimes forget with all of the wonderful things being said about this figure ted kennedy that he was partly responsible for ronald reagan's ascend anssi because ted kennedy challenged the democrat jimmy carter in 1980 and weakened him and that brought ronald reagan into power. >> for so much of his career that new deal liberalism was viewed increasingly by democrats, bill clinton and others as something they were

trying to change and modernize. >> absolutely right. bill clinton had a third way. he said, you know, the era of big government is over. the other interesting thing about all of this is that kennedy even in his youth seemed out moded. remember his two brilliant political brothers had already abandoned the new deal principle. john kennedy was a idealogist and robert kennedy went to a radical in the late 1960s. it was the youngest member, ted. his compass was fixed on that liberal ideal and he never took his eyes off the ball i think partly because he wanted to atone however he could for all the bad things that had happened and that he in one case had been responsible for. >> we could talk about this for hours and we'll spend more time in upcoming weeks. look forward to your essay this

afternoon and your book in a couple days. thanks for being with us. >> thanks a million, john. >> we want to get you caught up on other stories making news today. in less than two hours a convicted sex offender and his wife are scheduled to make their first appearance in a california courtroom. authorities say phillip garrido has admitted to kidnapping jaycee lee dugard back in 1991 when she was only 11 years old. they say he kept her captive in a backyard compound for 18 years and is the father of her two children. jaycee, now 29 years old, has been reunited with her mother. joining me now live is msnbc analyst and former fbi profiler clint van zant. how could a known convicted rapist have gotten away with this for 18 years? >> well, this is always the challenge. i think in today's time we've lost the ability to be a brother's keeper. there are neighbors who could look over the fence nan one case they did. they looked over the fence and saw people in tents in the background and called the sheriff's office and allegedly

the sheriff's office came out and said, well, it's private property. we can't do anything. i think what we're going to find, john, there were a number of opportunities where this could have been solved, where either neighbors, associates, law enforcement, various people dropped the ball but there's one thing we need to know. this sharp police officer at university california berkeley, when this guy with the two children he fathered by the kidnap victim showed up at berkeley earlier this week trying to pass out literature, this police officer stopped him, wanted to know who he was, ran his i.d., and then, john, when the two little children wouldn't look the police officer in the eye, the officer said, something's the matter. this doesn't work right. so he called the parole officer and said you better be talking to this guy because this whole thing doesn't feel right. parole officer, call him in. he shows up with this ex-tetend family and then he does the right thing. they split everybody apart. they start doing interviews. lo and behold here is a woman who was kidnapped almost two

decades ago. she's finally recovered safe. >> thank god for that officer's skill and training. thanks so much for being with us. >> thank you, john. it's wildfire season in california and the governor has declared a state of emergency in two counties. there are six fires burning in the state driving hundreds of residents from their homes, some of them from upscale houses overlooking the pacific ocean. a fire burning in rancho palace verdipalace -- palas verdes. forecasters expect another day of triple digit temperatures and record highs. coming up, we continue our coverage of the passing of senator ted kennedy. thousands have lined up at boston's jfk library to pay their respects. we'll go there live next. everyone's talking about them. and now we can actually do something about them. at wal-mart, their prices are unbeatable. over 300 prescriptions are just four dollars. four dollars. imagine that.

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memorial library in boston. ted kennedy's favorite song "the impossible dream" will fill the halls of that library tonight as part of tonight's private memorial service. in just about a half an hour the public viewing for senator ted kennedy is scheduled to end. and now it's time for the caucus. a roundup of the week's top stories with journalists from the "new york times." mark, let's start first with a passing of senator ted kennedy. you wrote about his final days. what surprised you about what you learned about how active he was, what those moments for his family were like? >> i was surprised by how joyous it sounded. the people who i was able to talk to who spent time with him literally in the last few weeks said that at least up until a few days ago he was engaging in nightly dinner parties. he was doing sing alongs. obviously his condition was pretty severe at this point. he was in a wheelchair and had quite a bit of discomfort.

he couldn't move around that well but, you know, as of a few weeks ago he and vicki were watching "24" on dvd. they were singing show tunes together. he was eating his favorite ice cream every single night a blend of mocha chip ice cream and butter crunch from this cape cod haunt they'd been going to for years. so it sounds like he wanted a good ending for myself. >> it reminded me, my own father died of brain cancer some years ago. but when you have the time and you prepare for it you do have wonderful exchanges with family members and you can tell the truth to each other and talk about how you feel about each other. it's remarkable. >> i was pretty struck. i'm of course a cynical political reporter and the feedback we get is usually very political oriented and so forth. i got so much response from people around the country who weren't really kennedy followers at all but were struck by the end of life decisions and end of life lifestyle that ted kennedy

was able to have and they spoke of, you know, some with regret that their own parents and loved ones couldn't enjoy a similar good ending and others just, you know, really struck a very life and death cord. >> one of the things you and i both reported on some weeks ago was how involved he was in health care discussions. chris dodd said he was talking to him by phone from time to time. do you get the sense that since he was aware and lucid up until the end he was having some input or not really? >> i wouldn't say input. i think his last conversation with dodd was about -- it was right before dodd went into surgery for his prostate cancer. i don't think kennedy was weighing in at all. i think he was following it as much as he could. but at a certain point it was really his staff. even that i think especially during recess a lot of the focus has been on the finance committee and so i think recently he really hasn't been much of a factor.

>> ted kennedy spent time on the porch of his house. you talked about him enjoying the salty air, enjoying the sail boat, that sort of thing. was his entire family with him the entire summer? people coming and going? >> a lot of the summer. patrick has been in rehab but when he's gotten out he has been largely in hyannis port. ted jr. has a house down the street. kara kennedy was around most of the time. jean smith his oldest surviving sibling rented a place down the street for the summer. >> the shrivers as well? >> the shrivers were there. eunice obviously passed away a few weeks ago but there were a lot of shrivers coming through and they lived right up the street. vicki has kids and they live in boston so they were there. it was a very close knit -- it wasn't the extended kennedy family but i think there was a core group of about 12 people that comprised largely his kids, step kids, grand kids, vicki, and jean who were there much of the time especially in the last few weeks though patrick was in

california at the time of his actual passing ankara was in washington but other than that it was a pretty close knit ending. >> jackie, let's move to sbaunts litt substance on health care. we've been paying attention to the influences on the health care debate including the deficit estimates you've written about going to $9 trillion over the next years. what is your sense of the health of this effort and whether in fact there will be some effect from kennedy's death or whether that as i suspect will be kind of minimal on this process? >> right. i don't think anyone can know until members of congress get back next month exactly what the health of the health care bill effort is. i agree with you. i don't think there will be a significant sympathy factor that plays out for the obama and democratic health care overhaul plan. >> you're not expecting orrin hatch and john mccain to all of a sudden embrace what the democrats are doing to help their fallen friend? no.

i think there's no question that it's an inkacalculable loss to president obama that senator kennedy was not here this year for this effort but that would have been in the behind the scenes and getting people together and seeing whether you could find common ground and having himself lost on this effort so many times he as the so-called liberal lion could have led other liberals to compromise where they might not otherwise -- >> that's what i thought might have been his greatest contribution, telling other liberals, take this deal. it's the best we can get. >> yes. >> you've covered the hill as i have for a good long time. do you agree with the assessments we were reading before from david brooks and others that it was the -- not the public speaking where he excelled but it was the behind-the-scenes deal making, the committee work. what was different about him? we're so used to equating your skill in front of a microphone with how good of a politician

you are. >> absolutely. at least in the last 20 years his colleagues in the senate had come to know him and in the house as someone who was a legislator's legislator. once he quit running for president or there was this sense that he was going to run for president and it was clear that he was making his life and his reputation in the senate, he was taken seriously, more than he had been in the past. >> as was pointed out in that op-ed column there was evidence of some of those skills early on when people thought -- >> absolutely. >> people thought it was a joke but he wasn't a joke. >> just the fact that in 1971 he was willing to not get any public credit for legislation he was jointly working on with the nixon administration. >> nixon cut a tough deal. >> and that shows, you know, the kind of -- that he wasn't -- he didn't want to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

but i think that in congress it was always interesting, i'm sure you found this from the '8 os on. it always amazed me when he would get up on the floor and speak as well and articulately as he did because as a reporter when you would try to grab him in the hallway it wasn't his -- he wasn't natural at it. he didn't really seek out the press the way others did. but you knew -- you knew from his friends and from republicans as well as democrats that behind closed doors he was the ultimate irish talker and a real dealmaker for all of his liberal ideology. he was a pragmatic legislator. so, you know, he's clearly, by any estimation, one of the, if not the best legislators -- you may not like the product but in history. >> he got it done. >> right. >> let's switch gears to this cia story. eric holder appointed a

prosecutor this week to examine the behavior of people who interrogated terror suspects even after barack obama has said over and over we need to move forward, look forward not back and leon panetta didn't like it. talk a little about the behind-the-scenes dynamics and how that is going to play out going forward within the administration. >> well, there was a lot of tension between the justice department and cia. the cia feels, and this is understandable, we were told by the white house and by the justice department for years that stuff was legal. this stuff is not torture. they went ahead and did it. there's a change of administration and now eric holder is there appointing john durham, a prosecutor to look into not just the deaths in -- that occurred in custody in iraq and afghanistan but also the cia's secret prisons, the formal program that was approved all the way up to the president. and so there is a sense of

bitterness i think at the cia that leon panetta is the director and sort of brought to the administration and, you know, sort of as the cia advocate he's not an intelligence guy historically but he was there to sort of say, hey, leave us alone. we got lots to do and we don't need everybody hiring lawyers and worrying about, you know, their future. >> so is leon panetta and his authority been badly undercut by this? >> well, i think there's certainly some of that. i think another question is how is this going to come out for eric holder? i think he did feel under pressure to have some kind of an investigation. after all the president, the attorney general, and the cia director mr. panetta all said waterboarding is torture. torture is one of the most serious crimes you can commit. and to just sort of brush it aside and say, hey, we don't want to look back, we want to look forward, you know, i think that was not really an option and certainly mr. holder could have been accused of

politicizing the justice department. >> well, does your reporting tell you that in fact this was eric holder's decision alone? or was he doing what the president wanted but the president wanted no fingerprints which is why he keeps saying look forward not back? >> well, if there were communications directly between barack obama and eric holder we don't know about them. and i think there was a general sense at the white house that they didn't want to be caught, you know, interfering in a really blatant way. >> unhappy with this decision and process? >> i think you can't help but think that president obama would prefer to get on with health care and so on without becoming entangled in the history of this torture issue, which is not his thing. he sort of moved on and has created a new interrogation program, and it can offend the republicans who he needs to pass his programs and it can alienate the cia which he needs to keep

the country safe. >> very interesting the independence shown by eric holder if in fact that's the case. thanks for being with us. appreciate it. >> thank you. still ahead, health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius joins us live and we'll get her thoughts on the status of health care reform and how senator kennedy's passing may affect the bill. i'm racing cross country in this small sidecar, but i've still got room for the internet with my new netbook from at&t. with its built-in 3g network, it's fast and small, so it goes places other laptops can't. i'm bill kurtis, and i've got plenty of room for the internet. and the nation's fastest 3g network. gun it, mick. (announcer) sign up today and get a netbook for $199.99 after mail-in rebate. with built-in access to the nation's fastest 3g network. only from at&t.

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because when it comes to medicare, it's easy to see jack is on a roll. ♪ get your free information kit and medicare guide. aarp medicare supplement insurance plans. call now. ♪ breaking news now from msnbc. we have just received a report here from the l.a. county coroner's office determining the manner of death of michael jackson. they say it was homicide, that he died from acute propofol intoxication and that the drug lorazapam also contributed to the death of michael jackson. propofol had been administered reportedly by michael jackson's personal doctor, dr. conrad murray. he told the investigators that he was trying to wean michael

jackson off of those drugs and that night he had given michael jackson other medications to try and help him sleep and after that didn't work for several hours the doctor said he gave in and gave michael jackson the propofol. michael jackson as you might remember quit breathing and was rushed to the hospital. he died at the age of oo on june 25th, 2009, and again, according to the coroner's initial report here, this has been ruled a homicide. the complete toxicology report will remain on a security hold meaning they're not releasing all details from the toxicology report from the coroner's office but we'll stay on top of this story as we get new details in. again, michael jackson's death according to the l.a. county coroner's office ruled a homicide and they blame propofol. now back to the "new york times" hour. i think naming is a decision that the united states senate will make. i think passing it is the big first step and that's what senator kennedy would want.

>> senator kennedy's influence lives on as his dream of health care reform comes to a critical juncture. but what may fall to the wayside as lawmakers move toward a september 15th deadline for a bipartisan deal? joining us now live, u.s. department of health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius. madame secretary, thanks for being with us. let me ask you first of all about the consequence that i have heard from people on the hill, some of your colleagues in the administration about the august recess with all those raucous town hall meetings and that is the demise of the bipartisan negotiations in the finance committee given the comments from senator grassley, senator enzi and some others. do you agree that those are not going anywhere and that this is going to end up in all probability as a democratic bill? >> well, i think the president is still very hopeful that we'll have a bipartisan approach coming out of the senate finance committee and discussions are still under way even though the senate is on recess.

i know the members, the six members who have been kind of negotiating with one another for the last couple of months have continued on. our staff has been very much involved in those discussions and we're still very optimistic that there will be a bipartisan approach that the finance committee will take and push forward to the senate. >> now, while we're talking, congressman patrick kennedy, the son of ted kennedy, has shown up at the jfk library, is shaking hands with constituents there. let me talk a little bit about your relationship over the years with ted kennedy. you chaired his campaign in kansas in 1980 when he challenged jimmy carter. you like ted kennedy come from a powerful political family in the state of ohio. your dad was the governor. talk about the ted kennedy you saw in 1980 versus the one that you have known over the years in the u.s. senate subsequently. >> well, i grew up in an irish catholic political family, a kennedy family, so my dad was

involved in helping to get president kennedy elected in the early '60s. he was a very enthusiastic supporter of robert kennedy's and continued to be a good friend of the family, so i kind of inherited that affinity for the kennedys. as you say, in kansas i had the privilege of being one of senator kennedy's cochairs at his 1980 try for the white house. then i had a great opportunity both as insurance commissioner and as governor and certainly into this role as secretary to work with the senator. he chaired a very critical committee and as you know senator nancy kassenbaum from my state of kansas and senator kennedy co-authored a piece of health legislation which really changed the lives of a lot of americans so they could continue to have health insurance even if

they changed jobs or switched jobs. i was able to testify in favor of that bill, work with them. i used to chair the health committee of insurance commissioners so i came in and out of washington working on disability issues and health issues and then it was my great privilege when the president nominated me for this job to have a chance to visit with the senator in my prehearing days. he returned to the senate and chaired the confirmation hearing for me before the health committee. he was there for the whole hearing and it was so incredibly meaningful that i had the chance to be a part of this great cabinet but also that he was there to help push the nomination forward. >> so, madame secretary, quickly, is your rise in politics like his, testament to the fact that the irish touch makes a big difference? though i don't think you laugh as loud as he does. >> hopefully not but the irish

touch doesn't hurt. kathleen mary gilligan. how can you beat it? >> wonderful. thanks so much for being with us. we'll talk to you later. >> thank you. coming up, more on the breaking news involving michael jackson and his death from propofol now that's been ruled by the coroner in los angeles.

welcome back to msnbc. we're just now learning from the l.a. county coroner who has ruled michael jackson died as a result of a homicide. let's go to burbank with new details. jeff, what do you have? >> reporter: like you said, nothing majorly new in this report and it's lot of what we've been reporting but to make it official in this press release just out from the coroner, the official cause of death, officially a homicide. the cause of death is acute propofol intoxication. so basically michael jackson, the coroner has ruled, officially, died of taking

propofol. other conditions contributing to his death, benzodiazepine affect which is basically the effect it has on a person when they are taking depressants. something else we've been reporting through sources that we knew michael jackson was taking. the lapd also released a statement just moments later saying they will be turning this case over to the l.a. da's office which is what we expected and it is now up to the da's office once the investigation is complete whether or not they want to file criminal charges against dr. murray or any other doctor. >> thank you for the wrapup. we'll stay on top of it here at msnbc. that's the latest from here in new york. >> thanks, contessa. i'm john harwood. that does it for me this hour. join us next friday at 2:00 p.m. for more of the "new york times" special edition only on msnbc. up next more of our special coverage of the passing of senator ted kennedy. thousands of mourners are filing by his casket at the jfk library in boston. coming up, david shuster and tamron hall will take a look at who may be in line to succeed

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