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saying good-bye. tens of thousands line up for a second day to pay their respects to senator ted kennedy. details of tonight's solemn memorial happening in just a few hours. what we are learning about senator kennedy's memoir, his life in his own words. >> it can be made into a circus. it can be made into a mickey mouse court if thaes the way you all look for it. that really is you all's responsibility. >> governor mark sanford versus half of his state. a new poll showing a divide in south carolina. many saying the governor is not fit for office. >> that's a disgusting thing that took place. but i turned my life completely around. and you're going to find the most powerful story coming from the witness, the victim.

you wait. >> he held the young girl captive for 18 years. disturbing questions including how he got away with it and could the girl have been saved sooner? good afternoon everyone. we're live in new york. david shuster has the day off. we want to start with breaking news regarding the death investigation of michael jackson. we just got official word from the coroner that michael jackson died from acute propofol intoxication and that his death has been officially ruled a homicide. our pop culture correspondent for msnbc.com, we heard this information leaked out a few days ago but now it is official. >> correct. a lot of people are saying, what ls new about this? what's new is that what we had before was just information that came from the search warrant affidavit. this is coming from the coroner's office saying unequivocally they've ruled this a homicide and that the cause of death, not what we think might have killed michael jackson, but the actual cause of death, they're saying, is propofol

intoxication combined with the benzodiazepine effect. we've been talking about benzodiazepines as the drug lorazapam, another thing they list in the coroner's statement, the sedatives michael jackson was known to be taking at the same time. what we've got now is very concisely, it was the propofol that killed him and this is a homicide. >> what happens now? does it get turned over to prosecutors? >> it's getting turned over to a number of different investigative units. the lapd put out a statement just following the coroner's statement saying that now you have the dea involved as well as some other bureaus, the narcotics bureau as well. there are other branches doing their own separate investigations and that's why we needed this coroner's statement to come out. that's why it was so important for it to come out so that all the people who need to now be involved now have the green light to do that. >> all right. courtney, thank you very much for reacting to that breaking news. also now to the big story of course of the day, you are looking at live pictures from the jfk presidential library

where doors are now closed to the public as preparations are being made for tonight's celebration of life, the service for senator edward kennedy. a moving moment. just a moment ago, a short time ago as maxwell kennedy, the man on the left, knelt down by the senator's casket to offer a prayer. on his right jerry cavanaugh, kennedy's former chief of staff. for a second straight day tens of thousands of people have filed past the casket of kennedy lying in repose at the presidential library. earlier today and last night senator kennedy's wife vicki, his sister, and his nieces and nephews spent time greeting people who waited hours in line for an opportunity to pay their respects and yesterday more than 21,000, some estimates in fact by morning 25,000 people came out to honor the senator. tomorrow morning a funeral mass will be held at our lady of perpetual help basilica in the mission hill community of boston. president obama will deliver the eulogy. he'll be the only nonfamily

member to speak at the senator's mass. before being laid to rest at arlington national cemetery the senator's motorcade will pass one last time in front of the u.s. capitol building and stop at the senate steps for a brief prayer so those who worked with the senator can bid him farewell. nbc's mike taibe joins me from boston outside of the jfk library. a lot of moving moments today including senator kennedy standing in front of the casket draped in the american flag. it is also as we keep pointing out everyday people who just stood in line to file around just to get a glimpse of the history, the man that is an american icon. >> absolutely true. there was another moment right now about 15 yards over my shoulder our producer found that robert kennedy jr. was there and he said to a number of people who had gathered around him, if you want to and have time i'm going down to the union oyster house in downtown boston. come and meet us there. the union oyster house as we pointed out last night is the

place where ted kennedy often went by himself and sat at the bar and had a drink and a couple locouple oysters and talked to people like the regular people. as you pointed out all day long people have been coming by the tens of thousands. no real crowd count but it wasn't necessary. for most of the day it was a line that stretched about a quarter mile, eight across, moving steadily. if 21,000 came yesterday afternoon and early evening that many at least came today and tonight as you point out is the memorial service with a number of speakers, four of senator kennedy's senate colleagues. there will be a film by film maker ken burns, a tribute to his life and a couple sfepeaker from the family ending with remarks by caroline kennedy, his niece. an extraordinary day here. so many people carrying thank you teddy sinls. quite an amazing day. >> what's interesting, mike, that you mentioned ken burns and his video, was ken burns who did

the video set up to senator kennedy speaking, that wonderful speech he gave at the democratic national convention, a very brave and painful time in his life as he was dealing with his health then. >> yes it was and the amazing thing was that summer as well around the time of the convention when he had gotten the diagnose ans dealing with it going through all the treatment there were so many people told me that as other people were suffering challenges in their lives, health challenges particularly, it would be teddy kennedy calling them up with empathy saying, listen, i'm thinking about you and your wife or your son or whatever it is and was absolutely believable. a man capable of enormous empathy and his people, his voting public certainly responded to that over the years. >> mike, thank you very much. now to the bigger picture, the first time in 25 years that massachusetts has a vacant senate seat. a 2004 law calls for a special election in five months. just over a week ago senator kennedy actually wrote a letter to the governor duval patrick

asking him to appoint an interim senator before that election. the governor and senator john kerry are calling on state legislators to act on that request and the massachusetts secretary of state says an election must be held either january 19th or the 26th. several names have actually started to emerge as possible candidates here. among them the senator's nephew former congressman joseph p. jackson, the second congressman william delahunt and former lieutenant governor kerry healee. mitt romney says he will not seek the seat. back in 1994 he challenged kennedy in the senator's toughest re-election run but mitt romney's spokesperson says he has no interest in running. joining me now is national politics editor at politico. i hope i got your name right, charles. i apologize if i messed it up. >> that's okay. >> bingo. let's talk about this list of people who have emerged. who are we hearing is a front

runner and what is the possible process? will duval patrick be able to honor senator kennedy's request? >> the first question is does a kennedy family member emerge as a contender in the special election? the question is whether senator kennedy's widow vicki or whether joseph kennedy the former congressman emerged and expressed interest in running for this. >> hasn't vicki said she is not interested? >> she has said to associates of the family and that's been reported several times but oftentimes that is the case in a situation like this where a senator's widow just really doesn't want to talk about that and interrupt the mourning process. we haven't heard directly from her in a statement and obviously it's not going to come any time soon but she is someone who is often talked about as in the mix. >> do we know if senator kennedy had given any indication if there was a person that he, and i don't want to use the word favored, but somehow the attention had been caught of the

senator's eyes on an individual? >> i don't know about expressly. i don't know that there was anyone thought to be the senator in waiting for that seat. i think what you are seeing here is there's a lot of pent up ambition within massachusetts. this is the seat that has been in the kennedy family for close to 60 years. senator kennedy himself had it since 1962. and so what you see is a lot of people have been quietly lining up in anticipation of the moment. >> it should be incredible. charles, thanks very much. i greatly appreciate you joining us. i want to take our audience to a development with nbc's peter alexander in boston. i understand he is with a kennedy family member. peter, what do you have? >> reporter: tamron, good to visit with you. we are here with the late senator's grandson teddy iii. your dad is ted ii, ted jr. you live in new haven, connecticut, with your mom and dad. if you can, you were out here shaking hands. >> yes. >> what has this experience been like for you to be able to shake hands with all these people who have come out to show their appreciation? >> well, it just is pretty cool to see how many people, like,

how many people my grandfather has affected in such a good way. it's really a nice feeling to see that my grandfather did so much good. >> then if you can what are some of your best memories? you've been there with him for all 11, what are you, 11 or 12 now? >> 11. >> what are some of the memories you have that you'd like to share? >> well, i loved to go sailing with my grandfather. that was probably some of the best memories we had. just sailing the mya and dragging and him making funny jokes at dinner. >> you remember some of the famous jokes? was there one joke that you loved? >> i can't really remember. but normally my dad makes a joke and then patrick and him go, ha ha both together and then my grandfather like says something else and then we all laugh. >> yeah.

can you say a happy time a. sad time? you said earlier it was both. >> it was both. he's in a better place now but he's gone from us. so good and bad. and when we go to heaven, then it will be good all the way. >> you know he and the others will be waiting there. >> yeah. >> it was so nice to meet you. i know your family is getting in the station wagon or the car or bus and heading out. i know you'll be back later today. >> yeah. >> thanks for your time. take care. all right. that's teddy iii. got it right. 11 years old. appreciate you stopping by to visit with us. >> peter, i can't just let you go without explaining. i mean, the family gave him permission -- what a brave little boy. and his words -- >> he is. >> so beautiful and touching, you know, you go to heaven but how did you get -- did his parents give permission? how did you get him to talk. >> of course the family said it was okay. a few minutes ago, we didn't get

a chance to visit with you, there were 20 kennedys and shrivers and all these kids. i said let's go around and introduce each other. they said i'm not sure which one i think that is. that's a second cousin. that's a first. that's a shriver. it's pretty incredible. i was out in hyannis yesterday and it was so compelling to us just how large and really how much every member of this family looks like the others, looks like their grandparents. teddy iii, the guy looks like he's a walking senator. >> adorable. >> despite the long hair. just adorable and came right up and said hello. they've been shaking hands not just with the media but with approaching 50,000 people who have marched through these doors over the last what is it, 24 hours or so. >> yes. >> and so we said, hey, can we talk to you? he said absolutely. i'll tell you about my grandpa. that's all the story there is behind it. >> he's an awesome young man. thank you very much, peter. certainly be sure to stay with msnbc for complete coverage of the death of senator ted kennedy, special coverage of the kennedy celebration of life service starting tonight at 6:00 p.m. eastern right here on

msnbc. still ahead, south carolina republicans meeting this very weekend to decide whether they will try to impeach governor mark sanford as they -- if he won't resign on his own some say it's time to put him out. plus the latest chronicle in the sarah palin chronicles. first, senator ted kennedy in his own words.

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welcome back. any minute now a man accused of kidnapping a california girl 18 years ago will appear in court. police say the girl, now 29, had been held captive all these years.

phillip garrido and his wife nancy allegedly held jaycee dugard in a backyard compound where she was reportedly raped by him and fathered, he even fathered two of her children. now, this is what jaycee, then 11 years old, looked like when police say she was grabbed while on her way to catch a school bus. garrido, a convicted sex offender, spoke to a local reporter from behind bars. >> it's disgusting what took place in the beginning but i turned my life completely around and you're going to find the most powerful story coming from the witness, from the victim. you take this a step at a time you're going to fall over backwards and in the end you're going to find the most powerful, heart-warming story. something that needs to be understood. >> jaycee's step father carl probyn witnessed her abduction 18 years ago and today spoke about what he hopes will happen next. >> just to get back to norm alwanormalsy

and everybody have a happy life and get through. i mean, this is a one of a kind situation. i've never heard of anybody, you know, three people being locked up for 18 years. i mean, this is going to be a lot of work for a lot of people to straighten this out. >> joining us now is former fbi supervisor dennis joyce, owner of dennis joyce investigations in sacramento. dennis was in charge of the initial fbi investigation. thank you for joining us. >> great to be here. >> let me get your reaction. 18 years later. you were at the start investigating this and the way it all unfolded, so unusual in that this suspect garrido went in to talk with a parole officer and there the story unfolded. >> well, it's a classic example of good police work which was done by the parole officer, by the berkeley policeman, and by the concord police department. it's one of those things where we sometimes get alid lead like a needle in a hay stack tan's

what we investigators do with that needle that is success or failure. this is overwhelming. i am so proud to be part of the fellowship of law enforcement that did this the last couple of days. >> when jaycee disappeared, i know that at one point even her step father was a suspect. all stones literally were turned over to try to find clues because she vanished in a sense without a trace. >> that's correct. and it's unfortunate that in a case like this we have to look for leads in all directions and you know, we had to look at her step father but i think he has got to be quite proud today with the quality of the art work which was done of the suspect at the time which when i saw the suspect, i said, my god, that's as good an artist's conception that i had ever seen in my career. >> so he looked like what witnesses had described 18 years ago, the guy that is behind bars

right now in that very creepy interview. >> no, this is his wife. >> the wife. >> so his wife looked like the sketchings put out at that time? >> absolutely. >> and she also is -- >> which means that he -- pardon me? >> she is also being held right now. let me bring you up on breaking news we've just gotten in. the contra costa county sheriff's department is saying his department, quote, missed an opportunity to intervene earlier to capture this alleged kidnapper and that there had been some calls from people who lived in the area reporting this suspicious individual. he says that, quote, we are beating ourselves up over this and they cannot change the course of events but at least the sheriff's department believes that they missed some opportunities. do you believe that opportunities had been missed along the way? >> well, that's the one thing that you don't do as a retired law enforcement officer is back seat quarterback. i know one of the concerns that

i have today, you know, as everything unfolds, is that did we miss any leads during the initial three or four days of the investigation? >> we just also saw video of a car, apparently a vehicle from 18 years ago. again, according to the sheriff's department, they're saying a caller told 911 back in 2006 that phillip garrido was psychotic and had tents in his back yard. and 18 years later this woman now has according to authorities borne two children of this person. what is your reaction or your hope for her at this point? >> i just hope that she gets the proper medical attention and that they can make up for all of those years. that's a little bit out of my area of expertise as well, but i am so happy. yesterday i thought when they had the news conference that it may have been that they had found her body or someone had

confessed to her murder, so this is just unbelievably good. >> thank you so much for joining us. we appreciate it. up next tracking tropical storm danny. we'll have the very latest. just in, we've got some new friends apparently -- we'll tell you how the republicans have . mom was diagnosed with moderate alzheimer's.

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welcome back to "the big picture." here are a few stories you need to know. california governor arnold schwarzenegger has declared a state of emergency in los angeles and monterey counties due to raging wildfires. crews are working to stop a two-mile blaze burning in the angeles national forest northeast of downtown los angeles. another blaze near soledad in monterey county has charred some 5,000 acres. tropical storm danny has

weakened over the atlantic as it moves closer to the east coast. right now the storm has centered about 355 miles south of cape hatteras, north carolina and is moving north-northwest. danny is expected to produce dangerous surf and life threatening rip currents along the east coast over the weekend. and the cia will ensure legal representation for case officers who become caught up in investigations of alleged interrogation abuses of detainees at facilities overseas. the decision from cia director leon panetta follows attorney general eric holder's appointment of a special prosecutor earlier this week. the special prosecutor will conduct a preliminary review of whether federal laws were violated during the interrogation. up next we'll go back live to jfk presidential library. in his final days senator ted kennedy finished his memoir. a special look at what we can expect in those pages. also, south carolina republicans meeting this very weekend to talk of impeachment. can mark sanford survive? you're watching "the big picture" on msnbc.

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here's your cnbc market wrap. right now the dow is trading down about 25 points. the s&p 500 is down fractionally and the nasdaq is up seven and a half points. oil prices are up today on optimism that the economy is headed for recovery and rose 56 cents to just above $73 a barrel. the popular cash for clunkers progr program, the commerce department says consumer spending rose 2% in july matching what analysts expected. however, personal incomes were unchanged. the newspaper industry is taking yet another financial hit. advertising sales shrank 29% in the second quarter as the revenue dropped $2.8 billion in the same time last year. overall ad losses for newspapers have increased in each of the last 12 quarters. that's it from cnbc, first in

business worldwide. now back to msnbc. >> it's pretty cool to see how many people, like, how many people my grandfather has affected in such a good way. it's really a nice feeling to see that my grandfather did so much good. >> and then if you can, what are some of your best memories? you've been there with him for what, are you 11 or 12 now? >> 11. >> what are some of the memories you have that you'd like to share? >> well, i just -- i love to go sailing with my grandfather, just -- that was probably some of the best memories we had. just, like, sailing the mya and dragging and him making funny jokes at dinner. >> welcome back, everyone. that was teddy kennedy iii talking about his grandfather just a short time ago with our own peter alexander and senator edward kennedy of course the

remembrances continue and the senator will leave behind many legacies and one obviously will be in print. his memoir at his publishers who say they will work to push the book ahead and it could be for many people a fantastic opportunity to get a closer look into the senator's life. the true compass was scheduled to actually be released in october but now his publisher is moving up the date to september 14th. the book is already the top ten on amazon.com as well as barnes and noble. and the coauthor of "the last lion, the rise and fall of ted kennedy" and also a staff writer for "the boston globe" magazine as well as an msnbc news contributor, thanks for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> what would you know might be included in the pages of this memoir, highly anticipated especially now knowing the senator worked in his last days on it? >> well, i think one of the many ironies of ted kennedy is that for a man who spent so much of

his time burn issuing the legacies of his brothers and looking to the past for that, he was a very forward looking guy. he wasn't very reflective on the past in his own life so by the same token he is also someone interested in history. part of the kennedy family, the kennedy family didn't throw out very much. they kept everything which is a gold mine for historians and other researchers. so the question is now and what i'm interested to see is how reflective he becomes in his final days. >> neil, you know, in covering this family and covering senator kennedy might he be more open and reflective and maybe more honest about all of the many things, the questions about his life and the family? >> you know, one thing, i think there's an important distinction between as you say open and

honest. >> what i mean by honest is open. not an omission of the truth but honest as in open. >> right. i think that's the real question on this. i know my coauthors and i when we worked on this project for our book were struck by how open all of the people around ted kennedy were and after being guarded for so many years. he didn't stand in the way of people really sitting down and opening up and some of them talked about memories they hadn't talked about for 40 years publicly, so we were impressed. we expected maybe more after stiff arm early on going into the project and were pleasantly surprised at how reflective people were around ted kennedy, the close people to him. so i'm hopeful in this case that he, with a mind toward history because the family was so focused on history that in his final chapters in his own pen he did open up and think more carefully about the good times

and bad times and being more expansive really with his thinking. >> all right, neil. thank you very much. a pleasure talking with you again today. >> same here. thanks. >> stay with msnbc all day tomorrow for coverage of the funeral of senator edward kennedy. coverage begins at 8:00 a.m. with a special edition of "morning joe." then at 10:00 chris matthews and keith olbermann will anchor coverage of the funeral mass. at 2:00 the documentary "the kennedy brothers" and then at 3:00 p.m. special coverage of the burial service at arlington national cemetery. to change gears a bit from the remembrances to another big battle, this of south carolina governor mark sanford who says he's got nothing to hide and the governor today said he is waiving confidentiality in the ongoing ethics probe into his travel expenses promising he says full transparency. for the second straight day sanford stood up to calls for his resignation or impeachment claiming his detractors are guilty of selective outrage when it comes to his use of taxpayer dollars for travel. >> self-policing clearly doesn't

work if you got one guy going out and saying in this case senator tomlin saying you broke the law but not saying a word about other senators or one of the three senators on his own subcommittee who purchased the same kind of ticket. >> a new south carolina poll shows support for the governor dwindling. asked if he should stay or go 36% said stay while 49% said it is time for him to step down. joining us live from columbia the chairman of the south carolina republican party. thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you, tamron, for having me. >> what's your reaction to this poll? you've got half the state saying they want him out and now he has less support among the republican party, originally 40% in june wanted him to stay around. now that number is up to 40% within the republicans who want him to go. >> well, you and i both know how polls can fluctuate from day to day, and clearly, our governor is out there making the case to the state of south carolina and there are those that are making

a very different case and my role as chairman of the party is to stay focused on the core message of the republican party and i continue to do so. >> what is the core message when it comes to this governor? >> you know, i believe it was at the beginning of july, the south carolina republican party, our executive committee, admonished the governor. and we basically centered the governor, i believe it's the first time we've done so at least in recent history. >> is that as far as you think it should go to censure and not impeachment and anything beyond, no resignation? >> you know, that's a great question. and the answer is at this point it's premature. we said in our censure language that as to additional information the south carolina republican party would hold tight absent additional information. now you have these allegations that are nothing but allegations. the ethics committee will reined ereined -- render a decision and we'll wait until that happens. >> i know you're talking about the use of taxpayer dollars to

travel. but there is the other allegation that dereliction of duty that he was absent from his job as governor for an entire week and no one knew where he was. that is not an allegation. i think that's been proven. >> that was what actually prompted our censure or admonishment of the governor. >> is there a divide in the republican party in south carolina? you've got a group of republicans meeting over the weekend and some at the least from what i am reading want him to go. >> you know, absolutely there is as there would be at any circumstances when you have a human foibl or when we have human frailties. what i would tell you is this. the republican party as party of individuality and we really put our arms around this idea of individuals expressing themselves and the final analysis we'll come to some type of conclusion hopefully sooner rather than later and move on with the business of government. >> do you support the governor? do you think he can still do an effective job? >> i've made a very conscious decision to subordinate my personal beliefs to that of the

south carolina republican party and our executive committee has spoken. we basically have said we admonish this behavior. we've put it behind us. we'll stay on task and that is to look at the issues we're facing in this nation. we don't believe you can spend yourself out of recession and we don't believe government can champion a health care initiative that frankly the person has a better option and decision and we believe in lower taxes, less spending, limited government. >> and how about the government disappearing and not using taxpayer money inappropriately if that turns out to be the case. >> this is what i was saying, tamron. we're waiting to see how those facts come to fruition. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. >> it's time for what we like to call the palin chronicles. for the fourth time in recent months a scheduled appearance by former alaska governor sarah palin has been canceled after her camp claimed she never agreed to show up.

the alaska family council has been advertising palin's appearance at an event tonight. the event is to promote a ballot measure requiring teens to tell their parents before getting an abortion. a palin spokesperson claims, quote, this is the first we've heard of it and says palin is not even in alaska at the moment. the family council says they've spoken with palin's contacts for weeks about her speech and say it would be, quote, a grave disappointment if she doesn't show up. meanwhile the federal election commission says palin's political action committee violated federal election laws donating more than is permitted to the re-election campaign of senators john mccain and lisa murkowski. they also claim palin's pac failed to disclose how some of their money was actually being spent. sarah pac treasurer says the report they filed is being corrected. there's a new website, a type of facebook for republicans. it's republican bill.com and calls itself quote a social net woerk of the people, by the people, and for the people. the website includes social

networking, job listings and a lot of old school conservativism and the site says it welcomes republicans, independents, and libertarians. still ahead, the horrific kidnapping story out of california. a young girl abducted, police say abused by a sex offender who fathered two children with her. now she's a grown woman and is finally free but how can she and her family possibly reclaim those years? we have an update on her condition and that of her two children. new wisdom new aches and pains, ...and new questions about which pain reliever is right for your body. tylenol 8 hour works with your body, with one layer that dissolves quickly... ...one layer that lasts all day ...and no layers that irritate your stomach the way that ibuprofen can. it's tough on your body pain. not on your body.

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garrido, was a psychotic and he had tents in his back yard. garrido allegedly raped dugard and fathered two children, now 15 and 11 years old. she was discovered by police and is now rebonding with her family but the story certainly has a lot of questions that have been raised. clint van zandt is a former fbi profiler and also an msnbc analyst. let's get to the question here. how does this woman get back these lost years? she was 11. her own child is now 11, the same age she was when she was snatched while trying to catch a school bus. >> you know, unfortunately, tamron, we see these cases once or twice a year. you and i remember the case in austria, a woman was kidnapped by her biological father, placed in an underground bunker for 24 years. he sired seven children with her and kept her hidden underground. remember the case of shawn hornbeck in missouri kidnapped

and held by his kidnapper for four years. these stories aren't that unusual but the bad analogy might be like senator john mccain trying to come back as a p.o.w. he was able to do that successfully even though those years were taken away from him and i guess part of it is what elizabeth smart, who was also kidnapped and held for almost a year, she said at the time of her kidnapping or her parents said to her, you know, your kidnapper took away almost a year. don't give him any more. >> right. >> take it back. i think that's what you have to do. >> clint, with this case, according to several reports that i've read people saw suspicious activity, these tents, this compound in the back. >> sure. >> garrido was eventually caught because he went into the parole office. he took her with him, his wife, and the two children. apparently he fathered with her. why would someone not try to escape? she was 11 at the time. are they so afraid to call for help? is there a fear they will be called or maybe even her children? >> yeah, you know, tamron, i

just posted an article on a news find.com, msnbc's website, and i talk about the stockholm syndrome. as you'll recall that was in 1973, a bank robbery in stockholm, sweden, where the hostages in that case so identified with the bank robbers that they eventually helped in their court defense and even had love affairs with them and realize that took place over a very short period of time. so what happens in a long period of time is you start to identify with your captor. you say, hey, if he doesn't succeed i'm going to die. your kidnapper, he threatens you, he threatens your family, and eventually this terrible bond, this survival bond starts to take place between you and the captor. this, now, she's going to have feelings of guilt and responsibility. she and her two daughters ages 11 and 15, who have basically never seen the outside world, are going to need a lot of help. >> clint, what about this wife here? she is accused of knowing about

it. what kind of women or anyone, individuals who help in this? i know in the austrian case it was suspected his wife had helped. there was never proof. but this woman is behind bars and may have helped in all of this. >> yeah, what we're probably going to hear is that she was an abused spouse, afraid of her husband, and she'll say my husband made me do it. the husband will say the devil made me do it. but bottom line, tamron, she was there. she could have picked up the phone. she could have saved these children any time she wanted to. she's as guilty as her husband is. >> all right. msnbc analyst clint van zandt, thank you. >> thank you. just ahead a look at what senator ted kennedy called the cause of his life, health care. will congress pass a bill the senator would have approved of or been proud of? back playing in the afternoon. excedrin back and body has two ingredients to block and relieve the pain. doesn't your whole body deserve excedrin strength relief? excedrin. what ache?

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welcome back to "the big picture." many of ted kennedy's senate colleagues have said the health care debate would have been different if kennedy was around for the negotiations.

so how would kennedy's presence have really changed this debate? that's the topic of this today's making their case. we heard some of senator kennedy's republican friends say a deal would have been reached if he'd been around. but maybe not. here is some perspective from rachel maddow. >> if only he had a health care bill, those republicans say they'd have voted for that. you know, ted kennedy did have a health care bill. senator kennedy was chair of the health, education, labor, and pensions committee which approved a health care package in july. it's called the kennedy bill. senator kennedy helped write that bill. senators hatch and mccain and gregg all voted against it. >> well, some of kennedy's allies, it's no secret they want health reform passed this year in kennedy's name and kennedy's long-time friend, senator robbed byrd even said the legislation should be named for senator kennedy. but now republicans say the democrats are politicizing his death, using it to get their

health plan passed. the white house says it will not play referee and now is not the time to talk about the political implications of the senator's death. alicia menendez is a democratic strategist and contributor for thestimulus.com and ron christie is a republican strategist. ron, you saw rachel's clip from the show. a lot of republicans are saying the senator would have brought something different to the table. do you buy that? >> i do actually, tamron. when i was in the white house, our staff negotiating very closely with the senator for no child left behind as well as the president's commitment for a national citizen's service act. he was a very, very good negotiator. he sat down by himself and worked with the staff. he found him to be very, very strong and easy to work with. i do think his absence is very, very much missed right now. >> what about the point that rachel made about the kennedy bill and those same senators saying no, and can one person truly -- i mean, they're all there because of their political skill and hopefully their

interests or the best interests of the american people. so can't the show go on, unfortunately, without this one voice? >> i think the united states senate is bigger than any one individual. >> right. >> and i think senator kennedy will be missed, but the show must go on, tamron. and i think despite his absence that the bill has to be negotiated so we will have to wait and see about the specifics. but i do not think we should pass the health care bill just because senator kennedy passed away. that would send a terrible message. >> i don't think anyone is suggesting that, ron? >> actually i have heard a lot of people suggest that. you heard secretary sebelius saying this morning, what would senator kennedy do? i think we need to be very careful about moving forward just -- >> alicia, get in there. >> i think we can use senator kennedy as inspiration both to be bipartisan, to approach this in a pragmatic way, and to recognize the urgency of this. i mean, senator kennedy fought for health care reform for 40-some odd years. i think that's a good reminder that we've been having the same discussion, and now we have an opportunity to do the right

thing, to make sure that every american who works for a living can take their kid to the doctor and to make sure those of us who are between jobs, who might be ill or unemployed, that we can still have access to health insurance without having to worry about pre-existing conditions. so i think when we say remember ted kennedy, we say remember it's time to do the right thing. >> it's interesting, ron, you've got rush limbaugh, he brought up paul wellstone's memorial service in 2002 and said it was a cheerleading session -- >> which is wrong, tamron. >> i'll let you get to t i want to play rush and then alicia and ron, you can talk about this back and forth and who is really using ted kennedy's name. go ahead. let's play it. >> before this week is out, do you remember the wellstone memorial? that was a frat party compared to what's going to happen here. this is going to be something to see. it's going -- they're not going to be able to control themselves. they're going to turn this into the biggest political rally you have ever seen. they can't help themselves.

they're leftists. >> ron, i will let you get in on it first. >> i hope rush is wrong. senator kennedy has done many admirable things. i hope rush is wrong and it's not turned into a political rally, but i fear it might be. >> rush, as usual, he's not only wrong, he's incredible crass and disgusting here. the idea senator wellstone when he died, there were eight different people who spoke at that ceremony. one of them vaguely mentioned politics, and here you have a strong man like senator kennedy who devoted his life to public service. i think it's bizarre to suggest that someone with who was political and so personally connected to their political causes, that we wouldn't mention politics. >> ron, now that the senator is no longer with us, who are the republicans hoping to negotiate with now that he's gone? are they saying it's just not going to happen based on that linchpin? >> absolutely not. i think if you look at the number of people who are working with senator grassley and

working with senator baucus, i think there are a number of people working across the aisle. senator bennett, senator widen f we're going to get a health care bill done, if needs to be done in a bipartisan fashion. i hope even with the passage of senator kennedy, that people can come back, put their stripes aside, and do what's best for the american people. >> some have brought up lbj and said president obama will have to follow in his footsteps. do you think that will happen? >> we will see. i can agree with ron on the bipartisan part. >> thank you. we really appreciate it. this sunday make sure to tune into "meet the press" for a special tribute to the late senator kennedy. his life and political career. it's a special conversation with close friends, colleagues, and family members. our special coverage continues right now with ed schultz. your body needs sleep to feel healthy... to feel better.

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