catholics know how to die. you have something to read to us about how catholics have been doing this for 2,000 years. >> this is a remarkable passage from a book called "the shape of the lit your ji" by dom gregory dicks who simply says reflects ones on the reflection on the room in jerusalem around 33 a.d. which we will see again and again here, why something that started with jesus of nazareth and that band of his followers becomes something that you and i are talking about right now and that the kennedy family will be experiencing shortly. this is from the scholar. whenever another command so obeyed for century after century, spreading slowly to every continent and country and among every race on earth, this action has been done and every

conceivable human circumstance, for every conceivable human need, from infancy and before it, to extreme old age, and after it. from the pinnacle of earthly greatness to the refuge of fugitives and the caves and dens of the earth. men have found no better thing than this. to do for kings of their crowning and criminals going to the scaffold. for armies in triumph or bride and bridegroom, little country church. for the proclamation of the dogma or good crop of wheat. for the wisdom of the parliament of a mighty nation or for a sick old woman afraid to die. for a school boy sitting in examination for columbus setting out to discover america. for the famine of whole provinces or for the soul of a dead lover, thankfulness because my father did not die of pneumonia, for the settlement of a strike. for a son of a baron woman. for captain so-and-so wunder and prisoner of war. while the lions record in the nearby amphitheater, at the

beach on done kirk. by an old monk on the 50th anniversary of his vows,fer tif bishop in a prison camp. gorgeously for the canonization of joan of arc. one could film reasons why men have done this and not tell hundreds part of them. best of all week by week and month by month on 100,000 success sieve sundays, faithfully, unfailingly across the parishes, the pastors have done just this. to make the holy common people of god. >> they do it again this morning. for ted kennedy. the last brother. we are at the top of the hour. it is 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. in 90 minutes, senator ted kennedy's funeral will begin. let's go to the church where that service will be conducted and speak with two of his friends, mike barnicle,

congressman bill delahunt. let me start with you, mike. and then i will ask the same question of bill. even though you guys have known that this day was coming for your friend for quite some time, it has to be a terribly difficult day for you. i wonder what your thoughts will be inside the church. >> well, joe, i think it was a particularly difficult moment when the funeral verse -- carrying senator kennedy's casket left hyannis port and the cape and for those of us who have known him, for those of us that lived in the neighborhood of hyannis port, those people in massachusetts who just know what that home and that locale meant to him, it was awfully hard to get a grasp on fact he was leaving it for the last time. but to jon meacham's point about what this ceremony brings to the world today, i think a lot of people out there don't know the catholic church -- we are in the

forgiveness business as catholics. and forgiveness brings redempti redemption. when you are irish catholic there is a lot to forgive, joe. forgiveness and redemption that we will hear about in this church today leads to the ultimate glory, resurrection and senator kennedy once told me quite recently that he believes in the resurrection and that in a sense is what this day, this burial, this good-bye, is all about. >> bill delahunt, what are your thoughts as you prepare to go into the church as a pallbearer to say good-bye to your friend, senator teddy kennedy? >> well, you know, joe, you spoke about catholicism. when you are an irish catholic like barnicle and myself, you know that you are going to see each other again. and last night when i left the library, there was a

condolences. i wrote on it i'm sure you were here. it was a hell of a party. and make sure when it is my turn you are there to meet me and get the band ready. that's what i'm thinking about. he's on a -- continue to touch our lives because those of us now that are left here on earth are going to talk about him, those of us that knew him, with fondness and he will continue to tell us what to do. >> i want to bring pat buchanan into the conversation again. pat, what we are seeing in the live pictures, members of the congressional delegation from both sides of the aisle and what we heard last night were political foes talking about how much they loved senator ted kennedy. his politics and his friendships didn't differentiate between parties, for sure. we saw that in some real genuine stories about how he dealt with people in a human level.

>> well, mika, that's right. as i said, senator kennedy, frankly, back in 1968 after his brother, robert, was assassinated was not a controversial figure. he was a well-liked kennedy. he had a -- big gregarious fell oh wonderful smile. he had not become, if you will, the icon of american liberalism and the -- figure on the left that the conservatives made so much money off of by -- in fund-raising and things like that. but for those 50 years or 40 years after that, everybody who came in touch with him were finding out now and everybody who had an encounter with him, i met him and he invited me over to his home and he did not need to do that but i -- ex-nixon aide or ex-reagan aide. everybody's personal encounter with him was -- i mean, they looked back on it well. they looked back on it well. and i think that's true of everybody that's coming up there now and this city here, in

washington, certainly up in boston. >> pat, stay with us. we want to say good-bye to our good friends, mike barnicle and congressman bill delahunt. guys, i know you have to go into the church. we greatly appreciate you all being here. we appreciate you sharing your thoughts. any final thoughts, mike? >> i do, joe. in order to -- for you and mika and jon back there in the set in new york to know that there is some sense of predictability and continuity here in massachusetts. i have been standing next to bill delahunt for an hour. my wallet was in my left hand pocket. >> joe, i will buy the coffee. >> that's right. and this morning is about forgiveness and redemption. >> you are in the right place. >> delahunt, if you need forgiveness and redemption. so, my son, you are forgiven.

>> say no more. >> joe, i forgive you. >> we have to ask you again, bill, a lot of people want you to replace your friend ted kennedy as senator of massachusetts. if asked to do that, would you do it, even though you now have barnicle's wallet in your pocket? >> you know, you know, joe, i'm at that stage in my career where i don't want to make a sixth-year commitment to anything. i just became a grandfather. she's 3 months old. her name is maya. i want to spend as much time as i can with her. and avoid the likes of your zblefl very good. >> good call. >> actually, jon meacham just notified me actually they do allow granddaughters in washington, d.c. so we hope you will reconsider it. bill delahunt, again, thank you so much. i know you have to go.

mike barnicle, thank you as well. let's go right now to msnbc chief washington correspondent norah o'donnell. why did senator ted kennedy pick this particular church? what's the storin behind it? >> it is very interesting. on the wednesday morning that senator kennedy died, kennedy aide called the associated pastor at this church and said can we have the funeral mass there at our lady of perpetual help basilica? the pastor was surprised and said sure but there's no air conditioning in this church church. he said don't worry, we will send fans. but the sidewalk outside, it is not yet finished. we will have that sidewalk fixed tomorrow. so they have done some sprucing up of this church to fit 1,500 people. what's significant about this church is that this is the church that senator kennedy came to every day while he was visiting his daughter kara kennedy who was battling lung cancer, to pray for her. he met regularly with the priest that has since died, who was

known as a healing priest. and then when he learned he had brain cancer, he came to this church to pray. that was not public at the time. so it is significant. if you were to go inside this church, what would you say is our lady of perpetual help and on the sides two big bases in p those vases, crutches and canes. like a bouquet. the idea it helps the sick. this is your much has been here for over 100 years. and then some of the hospitals here in boston have come up around this church. many sick people come here for healing and for redemption. that's significant because this is -- a surprise perhaps to some that senator chose this church. i will just point out, of course president obama, of course is going to deliver the eulogy today. he met earlier this morning with vicki kennedy. he walked across from his hotel to greet with her for about ten minutes and, of course, going to deliver the eulogy later this

morning. then three other living presidents here as well. of course, president jimmy carter, president george w. bush. and president bill clinton. already we have seen a number of people arrive. we saw senator kery and senator dodd who beautifully eulogized and with a lot of laughs last night at that irish wake. >> norah, stay with us. that's -- we saw going into that church where ted kennedy visited to pray for his daughter. then prayed for behind own health. we have seen chris dodd and many of his closest friends going in there. john kerry, of course, the -- the leaders of washington, the world. will be showing up inside of that church. >> massive showing of support and celebration of his life and legacy going into that church today. also lining the streets yesterday and what we will see throughout the day today will be many of the common man, if i may. but just people like us who want to say good-bye because this man

touched so many people and his family touched so many people in so many ways. he is, of course, the last of the kennedy brothers. which is a real passing of an icon in american history. >> we are seeing two pictures on the left side, of course, left is the church. our lady of perpetual help basilica in boston. that's where senator kennedy's funeral will be held at 10 lon 30 eastern time this morning. about an hour and 20 minutes. on the right side, you are seeing friends and family members and close associates around the coffin of -- flag-draped coffin of senator ted kennedy. they are, of course, at jfk's president's library, mika, where that wonderful memorial service was held last night in honor of senator kennedy. >> that service captured so much of his personal side. and stories from behind the scenes. most of them quite funny.

and joyous. but also stories of how he gave of himself in a ways you would never expect. we are looking at live pictures of many notables walking into the church. that looks like walter mondale. >> i believe that's walter mondale. of course, the -- the senator from minnesota who became jimmy carter's vice president. 1976. he, of course, ran himself in 1984. >> yes, he did. and on the other side of the screen there, you will see vicki kennedy greeting still members of the congressional delegation and others who are coming to pay their final respects. a long set of days for her in this final good-bye to her husband. must be extremely trying time. and from all estimates she appears to be holding up quite well. senator franken now in the live pictures we are showing you. saying good-bye. walking by senator ted kennedy's

casket. >> also jon meacham, as you said, front page of the "new york times," story about kennedy's closest confidant in politics as well as life. and that -- talking about vicki kennedy. jon meacham, what are your thoughts? >> i was just thinking as we look at the images of -- going to what mika was talking about. the democracy of death is obviously perennial fascination because it is going to come to all of us, perhaps even you, joe, i don't know. but you look at the -- you look at the flag-draped coffin which on moments of state seems to take on a certain distant air almost. almost as if it is a ceremonial touch that is beyond most of our reach. what's so fascinating to me about flag-draped coffins is that anyone that served their

country will have that. that ted kennedy who is in the arm, no matter what, there are funerals today unfolding around america where veterans are being laid to rest with the same honor, the same flag because they serve a common purpose and served a common cause. and i think that one of the things that we could so well in america, one of the reasons the constitutions no titles, no ranks, is that there's -- a democracy. and a sense that if you serve, you are honored. some let's talk about what we are seeing in the pictures. chuck robb, former senator, from virginia. l.b.j.'s son-in-law. joe kennedy, joe, of course, a congressman in his own right. that's at the library. joe kennedy was a congressman from massachusetts in his own right. we have also seen another -- in

other shots barbara -- actually, dianne feinstein talking to -- nancy pelosi. and also senator feinstein. speaking. they are, i believe, that's at the church. actually, that's at the library. at the library. and george miller in the background. >> in the other shot you will see vicki kennedy, her back to the camera. she greets everybody. i want to bring back in norah o'donnell. nora, tell us about how vickie is doing and how she coordinated truly was the organizer of making senator ted kennedy's final months of life joyous and also surrounded by family and as peaceful as can be. there were so many people at the service last night who talked about how much she changed his life. >> no doubt. a force of nature. i think this on a day when we remember someone's life, i think we all know that kennedy's life

had its dark side and had its light side. and it was his mother, rose kennedy, who inspired the family enter a public life. the first irish mayor of boston. joan kennedy, his first wife, who stood by him through chappaquiddick and even when he ran for president in 1980, even though they were separated. but then it wasn't until 1991, of course, senator kennedy was involved in the william kennedy smith rape trial. he had been out drinking with his nephew and his son the night before. there were a lot of stories out that talked about his bad behavior, his reckless behavior, behavior with women. and he took responsibility. and gave a speech that vickie urged him to give. she changed his life. they got married in 1992. and then became the most productive years, some say, of senator kennedy's life. where he really dug down and she

helped him, sources say emotionally as well as physically. she's a lawyer and she is from a political family, too. she knew sort of the rough and tumble of politics in some degree and became his closest adviser. she's known in this past year to even be phoning up senators and doing some of the lobbying herself on capitol hill. few people know that. so she's really a force of nature. and now, of course, everyone refers to her as mrs. kennedy. she's now the one who is grieving most dearly today for the loss of many people say was her soul mate. she was senator kennedy's partner and anchor in his life. relane cored him in the past 18 years or so. 16, 18 years that they were married. >> all right. norah, thank you very much. >> let's go down to washington. our d.c. bureau with pat buchanan. pat, norah was talking about personal problems ted kennedy had. of course, that's something that

his friends and foes talked about quietly throughout the '60s and '70s and 80s. i know you remember, as do most of us, michael kelly's "gfshg q." article that came out and it was around the time the smith trial. that was like an explosion. not only in ted kennedy's life but in washington. everybody stopped, read it, and wondered whether this man would be re-elected. >> look at tony bennett. >> tony bennett coming in to the church. but many people wondering whether he would survive even in massachusetts politically. i have to ask you, pat, a guy that knows washington, d.c., can you recall any public figure whose life is transformed as dramatically over time as was ted kennedy's in 1991 when he met vickie? of course, right there, we saw boston great bill russell.

bill russell being walked into the church as well. pat, i really can't think of a public figure whose life's life has been transformed like ted kennedy's was by the love of his life, vickie. >> the only one i can think of is my old friend chuck goldston who went to the penitentiary and came out and formed that prison fellowship and would eventually win the temple ton prize to religion and devoeded his life to a terrific cause. no question, joe, but a lot of us heard these stories about senator kennedy. you know, through the '70s and 80s. they were incidental stories. you would read this and that. when that came out, people were asking is he on such a reckless course he will destroy his career and his life. and that was a tremendous jolt. apparently the jolt hit him very hard and that is really where he took the you-turn. and there's no doubt about it as

norah said, he much more was a someone more focused on his work and getting things done on his career, repairing his reputation, and in the '90s and in this last decade, than had had been in those years. >> you know, and jon meacham and mika and pat, the stories stopped. the reckless behavior stopped. ted kennedy was a transformed man by love. by this marriage. >> to me that what's -- part of what makes him almost strangely inspiring. is that you did have this battle for so many years and head and heart. and ultimately, the life triumphed. and lord knows, though, a lot of us deal with the demons of lust and drink and ambition and recklessness.

but as barn barnicle was saying earlier, the point -- one of the points is that to get to a point where you can ask ask for forgiveness, redeem yourself, shakes pier's phrase, redeem your own hour upon the stage and he did this. >> on this very irish morning, pat buchanan, celebrate a great irish american. i'm reminded listening to jon meacham of one of my favorite lines in the book "have how irish saved civilization" where the author spoke of how god loved the overmatched man. c.s. lewis talked about how the prostitutes weeping on the back row was much greater in god's eyes than the front row of the church. speaking of overmatched, maybe that's why we mere mortals may in the end be able to relate to somebody like ted kennedy.

more so than a cool, aloof jfk who, as you said, even when he walked into a wedding reception, when you saw him for the first time, he was royalty. he was not somebody mere mortals to relate to. but here in ted kennedy we had a man, as jon meacham said, had a battle between life and dark inside of him like we all do. and life won out. that's what makes redemption the theme of this service today. >> you know, in the bible there is -- jon knows -- certainly knows this. many, many stories, republican and center both go to pray. the center says lord, forgive me, i'm a worthless sinner. the republicans saying all the great things he had done. and the lord obviously favored the republican and who is the more interesting figure in the prodigal -- than the prodigal son. is it not the prodigal son that went and spent his father's inheritance and went off to another city and lived the life and came home or was it the

faithful son who stayed there? it is the -- parable of the prodigal son. there is no question about it, people that had fallen and risen and fallen and risen are certainly more interesting story and a more relevant story to most human beings than those who have been saints all their lives. >> of course, biblically in the old testament, but it is so appropriate in the life of ted kennedy because so many people want to focus on the negative. that's not biblical. you look at the old testament david. a man who committed adultery and then murder. was known as a man after god's own heart. in the new testament, jesus built his church upon the man who defied him, denied him three times. >> very important point. david had a chappaquiddick. >> what you are seeing right now

the congressional delegation and kennedy family getting up. they are wrapping up the service there at the jfk library. and now they are getting ready important the next phase of events which will involve the casket moving to our lady of perpetual help basilica in above where there will be a funeral service. congressman bill del hunted who was on our broadcast earlier, one of the paul bauerers assisting in that. there is ethel kennedy walking into the church on this rainy above morning. getting ready to say good-bye to senator ted kennedy. and to touch on what we were just talking about, joe, in terms of falling and rising and senator ted kennedy's life of which there was much of that, this is a family, jon, so much in the public eye. he was born into the public eye. so every failing was public. and i think what is -- magnificent to me in the story like this is someone who cannot

only rise after falling deeply into the abyss but to do so publicly. it is very difficult. it is much more challenging than to be able to hide behind a veil and rise up again yourself. this is a family and a man whose fail wrgs dragged out into the public eye for everyone to see. >> well, the ambitions of the father, ambassador joe kennedy, who was a -- key figure in hollywood. who understood publicity and in a way that few people did in those days. there is a reason we have these wonderful pictures of the family. he had them taken. because he understood the power of the motion picture, visual imagery, and understood the life and look and time in "newsweek," the big things. and so, yes, the -- ted kennedy was born on a stage. and would never leave it. his brother. dallas, los angeles.

couple of months, mrs. kennedy, we just saw, her husband shot down. everything was going to be recorded. and i think that was one of the demons. but it was also his fate and it wasn't -- he never kicked against it. there was no reason to -- my sense is there was no self-pity which i don't know about you but i probably would have gone to that place pretty fast. >> yes. >> certain times when you see a lesser man would say you know what, i'm going to go away now. >> this isn't my -- you know, time for me to step away. and that -- it is the idea that you never ever give in. never flinch, never worry, never despair. that's what churchill in had his last great speech. that's true of kennedy and his personal life and political life. >> life in family you didn't have to be that scrappy, could you have -- you could have rested on your laurels and let things take care of themselves for you. he went out there and fought.

also, faced big demons publicly. >> and, of course, what he never gave in to, i think, what makes him remarkable example for all of us actually to follow in this area, the fact he never gave in to bitterness. never gave in -- as mike barnicle wrote earlier this week, he ignored all the extraordinarily nasty bitter things that were said about him through the years and he continued reaching out to people, helping those with whom he agreed and disagreed. and, pat, pat buchanan, the casket is about to make its trip from the jfk library over to the church. and inside that church there are many, many people who are going to be deciding where this country goes in the next year

and a half. on -- array of issues. important issues like afghanistan. but on the single issue that mattered the most, ted kennedy, through outhis entire life, that, of course, is health care reform. >> i don't think, joe -- i don't know and i realize that many democrats feel that if you call it kennedy care and we push it in ted kennedy's name we may be able to get it through. i'm not sure that is going to work when you consider that his closest friend on the republican side is orrin hatch who seems to be adamant against it. i think the president is going to have to go back to washington and pull together his people and say, in effect, we can't get 100% of what all of our -- we have to get together the way ted kennedy would have put us together. progressives have to stop attacking the blue dogs and vice versa because only if you all are to get together, can we get

a large slice of what we both want. my guess is that is what the president will do. >> and while we remember ted kennedy on this day and talk about the remarkable progress he made throughout his life, towards the stay of redemption, there's eric holder, attorney general would also -- we are showing pictures, though, of people on the screen, people like max baucus. claire mccaskill. and bill nelson, senator from florida. people who i suspect whose political -- would not be liked if this bill were changed to be called the kennedy health reform bill. like you said, pat buchanan, ted kennedy understood more than anybody else how to bring coalition together and also you did a quietly -- behind t skehe

scenes. you recognize the realities that every one of these senators and congressmen have to face when they go to their home state or district. >> that's right, joe. as someone said -- i think wisely, no liberal is going to lose his seat if there is no government option. but if there is a government option, you know, a lot of the blue dogs will be barking for the last time. and i think this they have to realize that and i think senator kennedy would have fought down the line until he got to the finish line and just like ronald reagan accepted 25% tax cut rather than the 30% he demanded, i think senator kennedy would have urged them and probably would have been able to persuade the progressives and the red hots that this is what we have to take now because it is all we can get and we have all been working for 100% of it and we simply cannot throw away the 60% we can get. >> and perhaps that is the

biggest loss for democrats and advocates of health care reform. they have lost the one man, the one liberal, the one progressive, who could go to any liberal in the house of representatives. where i can speak from experience where the blood flows a little faster and is a little hotter. and sit down and explain to any progressive that, hey, i had been there. i understand. i had a chance to cut a deal in '71 with nixon that would provided universal health care through employer mandates and i said no. we got nothing. i was there in '93 and '94. we tried to get everything we ended up with nothing. maybe we don't get everything we want. let's get halfway there. i don't know if he would have given that message but certainly if barack obama needed that message to be delivered, there was only one person in washington who could deliver it to the liberals. that was ted kennedy.

>> absolutely. that debate will rage on. but today friends and foes on both sides of the health care debate and both sides of the aisle are gathering in boston to remember the lives senator ted kennedy. what you are seeing are family members and members of the congressional delegation leaving the jfk library, making their way along with the casket of senator ted kennedy to our lady of perpetual help basilica in boston where there will be a service this morning at 10:30 eastern time. those are the pictures you see on the left side of your screen. we just sauteries a kerry there. the events will carry out throughout the day. after the service in boston the casket will make its way ultimately to the u.s. capitol. there you see eric holder, the attorney general talking to al gore at our lady of perpetual help basilica. they wait for the service to begin in just about an hour's

time. let's go to the capitol, though, where we find tom could fellow. that's where ted kennedy's motorcade will stop by the senate for a final farewell later today. tom, set the scene for us in washington as well. >> good morning to you. it is one of the notoriously hot and muggy days here. in fact, it may be the mugiest day of the summer here today. the capitol behind me. it is awfully hot with the humidity hanging low in the air today. senator kennedy will arrive at andrews air force base at 3:00. his funeral procession will make its way down independence avenue and stop at the capitol building at 4:30. we are expecting hundreds, perhaps thousands of people to come and pay their respects to senator kennedy, specifically we are expecting more than 100 people who are current and former staff members of senator kennedy to stand on the steps of the capitol as his funeral procession stops for a few moments as they pay their respects and then the senator will proceed on down

constitution avenue behind me, down past the national mall, and near the lincoln memorial and on over to arlington national cemetery. it is safe to say, i think, that capitol hill was very much in senator kennedy's blood and perhaps senator kennedy was in capitol hill's blood. keep in mind he had been here for 47 years. serving with ten different presidents, five democrats and five republicans. and sponsored more than 2,500 bills. when you talk about somebody's impact on an institution, capitol hill, 2,500 bills, they included the national teacher's core, low income assistance program, age 18 voting law, may americorps. in 1971 he lost his senate whip seat to robert byrd. at the time the talk was chappaquiddick had caused senator kennedy to take his eye off of the ball. and then during the '70s and 80s he was a 1960s style of liberal politician. he opposed robert bork and

clarence thomas to the supreme court. also john roberts and samuel alito. he opposed both wars in iraq. he faced, as you probably know, the early '90s, senate ethics investigation into allegations of sexual harassment and also drug use. he was cleared of all of those. we should hasten to add. and then he worked with george w. bush on the no child left behind bill but, of course, opposed george w. bush through much of his presidency. it is worth remembering that senator kennedy worked not just with one and two generations of bushes but three generations of bushes. he worked with senator prescott bush here in the senate. senator prescott bush retired in 1963. of course, senator kennedy came into the office here in 1962. he was re-elected. we would hasten to marine mind you in 2000 with 73% of the vote from massachusetts and 2006 with 69% of the vote. and so if you talk about one man or one person's impact on a an

institution whether you agree with his politics or not and for good or bad, he had a tremendous impact on this place on capitol hill which is why, of course, they will remember him and honor him today at about 4:30. guys, back to you. >> all right. nbc's tom costello in washington. that's ultimately where senator ted kennedy's casket will stop by the capitol building for a final farewell there. but right now what you are looking at are people walking into the church in boston where there will be a service in less than an hour's time. the president will be delivering the eulogy and what we have seen, joe, so far is an amazing array of not only former leaders, present leaders, but also political foes walking into this church all united in remembering senator ted ken. >> i political foes who, again, understood that when they fought ted kennedy on the senate floor, it wouldn't taken personally.

i thought jon meacham last night listening to senator mccain's description of one of his battles with senator kennedy and explaining how something could explode so quickly. i thought that described what a lot of americans don't understand about politics on capitol hill. you have people that don't take it so personally. that have their beliefs but don't consider others evil. you can have disagreements, even heated disagreements, sometimes you can say things that you wish you didn't say. with senator kennedy, next time you saw john mccain in the hallway. he just burst out laughing. they hugged each other and their friendship continued. >> it is amazing watching these images and thinking about -- you -- burying the son of franklin roosevelt's ambassador to great britain. howard baker of tennessee who is

married to nancy kassebaum who is a descendant of landen who ran against roosevelt in 1936. and, of course, jack nicholson who ran against -- oh, no, i guess not. >> i am surprised that bill russell and jack nicholson would be in the same building together. >> you remember that -- >> l.a. lakers fan. i guess ted kennedy can bring anybody together. >> you remember the fabled campaign in no, i guess you don't. linda byrd johnson. al gore whose father was also in the senate. we just heard. you have president bush coming whose grandfather was in the senate. john mccain. just mentioned, his father. his grandfather, admiral. one hopes that all of these family connects and ties of blood and history and experience

would help us get to a place now in the age of obama where we could recover the best part of that 20th century tradition of working to the in order to push us forward. not that everything is perfect. not that it is a club. but that there's a level of humanity ask the -- personal connection that can make the -- rough edges smooth. >> pat buchanan? >> joe, what jon was saying reminds me jon will recollect this for sure, middle ages, the truth of god and peace of god. when the battles stopped during lent and battles stopped during holy days and i noticed when ronald reagan died, as when teddy kennedy died and was buried, you had three, four days when the country at least on from television and the message out from washington and from the television screen was one of unity, coming together,

positiveness, of setting aside rank or and bitterness, you have those time also, i think, we certainly had it at the inaugural and it was durp down on the mall, joe, and i was there. democratic revival but it was a time of good feeling. these times do pass after the -- after the peace of god or truce of god ends. and we are going to find out if this -- endures in any way when we get back and to washington and it is not only health care but the decision on sanctions on iran. and more troops to afghanistan. the prosecution of cia interrogators. all those bitter battles come immediately back to the fore. >> what is so that if jon meacham said there will be something that binds these different players together, kegtsz them that makes them understand that -- in the end, be they liberals or conservatives, republicans or democrats, they are americans

first. that's something ted kennedy understood and something ronald reagan understood. that's why people kennedy and reagan were able to have such a great friendship. nancy reagan spoke of when she told chris matthews a few nights ago. >> we are also joined by staff writer for "the boston globe," the co-author of "last lion, fall and rise of ted kennedy." as we look at such a wide array of speakers and politicians and people, walking into the church, there's senator mccain, still outside. tell us about -- you have talked about this. ted kennedy's role as the chief all gi eulogist. how each of those eulogies came back and related to his own times here on earth.

>> absolutely. when you think of great politicians, you think of great political oratorys. with a few exception was ted kenne kennedy, the most memorable lines are those delivered at eulogies when he was helping the families grieve and helping the nation grieve. it began in 1968 with bobby's assassination and many of the people around bobby wouldn't think ted would be up to it. the night before bobby's eulogy, he drove around aimlessly with a friend just trying to -- process the grief. but when he stood up at st. patrick's cathedral that day, delivered this haunting beautiful poignant eulogy that we still remember to this day, may brother, he not be idolized or enlarged in death beyond what he was in life but be remembered as a good and decent man who saw wrong and tried to right it. who saw suffering and tried to heal it. who saw war and tried to stop it. in 1968, no one really thought of ted kennedy as a great political leader.

he was the kid brother but it is amazing how much those words now could be applied to him today. those same three major themes. >> we were seeing inside the church a minute ago patrick kennedy, senator kennedy's youngest son, congressman from rhode island, escorting his mother, joan, into the church. ted kennedy's first wife. there's senator john mccain. senator from arizona. and al gore speaking -- speaking to teresa heinz kerry as well. >> the title of your book describes the subtitle describes what so many of us have been talking about this week. the fall and then the rise of the last lion. >> it is so true. with the kennedys you often think about young men that found greatness early.

with ted kennedy greatness came to him later, through grinding work over the years. and i think that's something that the family recognizes and what's been interesting in the last few days is for someone that had been such a two-dimensional character for much of america, whether they loved him or loathed his poll particular, ted kennedy has become a three-dimensional man. who people saw the flaws and now saw how he dealt with those flaws to sort of make his way, earn his way, grind his way, to greatness. >> you called him the last lion.

now they have come back into vogue. but regardless of what -- where it was going, he was there doing the work. >> we just saw -- there's, of course, jesse jackson. we just now along with eric holder, the attorney general, of the united states, we saw earlier shots of ed marquis, ed marquis, of course, one of the senior members of the massachusetts delegation, a man who could be selected to replace ted kennedy, other names we heard, of course, also, our friend bill delahunt. and as well as joe kennedy. and there is the hearst that's now leaving the jfk library. that will be heading to our lady of perpetual help basilica. of course, that library reminds

me of the story that peggy noonan told us yesterday. and that is the story of how ted kennedy called ronald reagan and asked for help with the jfk library. it wasn't endowed. they needed to raise money. and ron ad reagan immediately jumped on an opportunity. jon meacham to go help ted kennedy. and he spoke eloquently of jfk's leadership. and what it meant not only to him but to an entire generation of politicians and those two men who really -- ideologically could not be further apart became good friends who greatly respected each other. >> i think -- we always admire in others those things which we hope are our own virtues. i think president reagan saw a great showman, investment to the word. great political actor.

and someone who was committed to his ideology in the way that president reagan was committed to his. >> we just saw a shot of cia director leon panetta. jon, you are a historian, pulitzer prize winning historian, maybe too early to say this but we look back perhaps this time period, 50 years from now, 100 years from now, and -- and look at reagan. and kennedy. and as the two men that defined the past 50 years of american history. the same way we look back on british history. and think of -- israeli and glad stone. going back and forth. pulling britain to the left and pulling britain to the right. >> i would -- yes. i think that you have a kennedy mystique, you have a reagan mystique. you have a kennedy ideology that evolved. have you a reagan ideology that revolved in many ways. what's also striking about this is the other great family in

american politics at this level, the bush family. which will also be studied for as long as the english language spoken in the corner of the globe as churchill put it because you had a grandfather who was a senator. you have a father who is a president. you have another son who is a president. through the bushes did something the kennedys did not. they elected would members of their family to the white house. first family since the adamses. and i think that as you look at american history, you can tell it through in many ways the great fallys that seem to alternate between completely self-made men. jimmy carter, richard nixon, bill clinton. you know, for every john kennedy, there's a dwight eisenhower who fought his way up. for every lyndon johnson, of course. yes, we will -- always look, it seems to me, when we look at the

age of reagan from 19 -- say '77, i would argue, until now, until obama, as a tension between the i had wroly represented in a way by nixon but really personified by reagan and ideology personified by the kennedys. >> mika, speaking of the bush family, george w. bush will be there today. george h.w. bush will not. he will remain, i believe, in houston. he's obviously not as healthy and mobile as he once was. actually, i believe he is up in maine. but george w. bush will be there. a man who struck an unlikely political alliance with ted kennedy in the early months. early year of george w. bush's administration. >> looking now at live pictures

inside the church. just looking at walter mondale among many. so much history, so many different facets of history inside that church now. which is officially called -- if i can reset the scene for you, our lady of perpetual help basilica. also known as the mission church. cardinal o'malley of boston will be presiding over the funeral of senator ted kennedy which will be starting at 10:30 eastern time. let me give you a sense of what we are going to see in our live coverage throughout the day. dan quayle walking into the church now. there will be prayers read by kennedy's four grandchildren and the youngest grandchild of each of the siblings will read quotes from his quotes from his speeches, an offertory delivered by several grandchildren as well. the music will be presented by yo-yo ma, the governor now getting out of the limousine to get in the church as well, music

by placido domingo, the tribute, edward m. kennedy jr. and u.s. representative patrick j. kennedy, sons, and, of course, president obama will be delivering the eulogy and then we will all hear "america the beautiful" presented inside the church. governor arnold schwarzenegger walking into the church as well. we're about 40 minutes away from the service itself and also senator ted kennedy's casket will be leaving the presidential library, the jfk library in boston and making its way over to the church as well. the church literally filled with incredible rich history and great names from our political past and present, joe. >> pat buchanan, as mika said, this church is filled with history. i want to pose the same question to you, as i did to john

meacham, do you believe ronald reagan and ted kennedy will be the defining political figures of our time? that you will have reagan -- reagan versus kennedy in the give and take in american politics from, of course, ted kennedy representing what started in 1961 with his older brother, but whether he fought f for over 40 years. >> there is no doubt. ronald reagan, you almost had an age of reagan from 1981, i would say, to 1989 and i think to the end of the cold war. i think that -- he personifies conservatism. i think ted kennedy is the personification, if you will, of post-1960s liberalism, but i think the kennedys are more should be taken together as a family, as a 50-year history, as

an evolution from the austere, the aristocratic john f. kennedy, a conservative democrat, to the fiery passionate bobby kennedy who turned anti-war, to teddy kennedy who voted for the tonkin go gulf resolution and became the face of liberalism for 40 years. i think in that sense, i think -- i think you can talk about an age of reagan that is hard to talk about an age of edward kennedy, i think, because he belongs to the congress of the united states and we live in a time of presidential government. the congressional government of clay, calhoun and webster, that's long gone. >> do you agree with that? >> it is long gone, partly because of john kennedy who wanted to turn the oval office into what he called the vital center of action. and there is no question, i think pat is right that you have to take the family as a whole and in that family you see the

evolution of american history, as you look at these faces, his first wife joan kennedy, as you -- joe kennedy jr., a member of congress, as you think about american history, his son, a member of congress, patrick, you see that evolution of american life from the cool new frontierism, to the hot liberalism of bobby kennedy in 1968, who had begun, as a very tough minded democrat, you end up with ted kennedy holding the torch for the left. and that is a remarkable thing to be given to one family, to be able to trace our history so cleanly. >> the family, the kennedy family is finally filing out of the jfk library. they are going to be making their journey to our lady of

perpetual help. there is maria shriver heading in -- heading out of the jfk library. and, mika, you look at this family, obviously maria shriver has been a key player in california politics over the past several years. it is -- you cannot overestimate the impact of this family over the past 50 years in american political life. >> and, well, the passing two of major legacies in this family over the past few weeks, eunice kennedy shriver, maria's mother passing away, which was another great legend in that family, perhaps a little bit underestimated in terms of how we write our history of this country, in terms of what she accomplished, but legislatively, senator ted kennedy, the list could go on forever in terms of what he accomplished as a politician and as a legislator,

but also what his family was able to do with their political weight, not only in the state of massachusetts, but for the country as a whole. we're watching two things happening at once here, family members and the casket leaving the jfk library in boston. and mourners walking into our lady of perpetual help, the church where the casket will go for a memorial service due to start at 10:30 eastern time. and that memorial service will feature, among many other things, president obama delivering the eulogy there. it doesn't stop there in terms of celebrating the life and the legacy of senator ted kennedy because his casket will then make its way toward washington where he will -- the casket willmake a stop will make a stop at the u.s. capitol and have a final farewell. he will be buried at 5:30 this evening at arlington national

cemetery. >> pat buchanan earlier this week, chris matthews was talking about how people who love politics, people like himself, people like me, grew up revering these giants of the united states senate. these bigger than life figures, these men, mainly, because of the time frame, that we looked at as statesman, more so than politicians. it seems to me that ted kennedy was the last of that breed. again, republicans or democrats, the last senator that truly was larger than life. can you think of anybody in the senate right now that could begin to continue his legacy on either side of the aisle? >> i find it hard to do so, joe, for the reason that ted kennedy came in, again, as the brother of the president of the united

states, jack kennedy, who was in a way and after that day in dallas in those four days, just sat riveted to the television, was immortalized and then robert kennedy, the same way, in 1968, and so ted kennedy carried the fact that he was a kennedy, he was from that family, he was -- that his two brothers had been mart murdered and he carried that in addition to a longevity of service. growing up in d.c., there were big figures there, lyndon banes johnson, richard russell, some of the old southern grandees but none of them belonged to a family that was really in a way america's first family in some ways, almost royalty. and so i don't think you're going to find anything, any way to -- to emulate that or repeat that from any folks that i see in there right now, joe. >> john meacham, are we truly saying good-bye today to the last lion of the united states senate? >>