inability to deal with health care is -- is like trying to drive somewhere with the trailer hitched to the back of the car that's got two flat tires. and we keep piling more and more and more weight on it. we have known for years that we can't put this off forever. we have to fix this health care system. actually what we need to do is build some sort of health care system. we don't have a system now. we have haphazardly grown this thing that's a collage of relatively unregulated expensive for-profit insurance markets and we just hope that will work out for people. except for the population groups for whom we can't bear to just see the impact of just having private insurance. for those groups, we step up. we step up for our veterans and promise veterans they will be covered. they get their care from the v.a. and tri care for life. we step up for the elderly too. they get medicare. government provided single payor that most older people in this country will fight to the death to defend. we step up for kids in this

country. more than 6 million american kids are covered by schip, championed by the late senator ted kennedy. this is what passes for a health care system. in the richest and most ambitious nation on earth, programs that work and that represent a moral public commitment to making sure that the specific favored population groups are covered and then totally dysfunctional out of control expensive dissatisfying inefficient and private for-profit system for everyone else. building a real health care system. taking on the most difficult of all the political fights in american politics is what the new president, barack obama, decided to try do in his first year in office. the nation buries the man most identified with the fight for universal health care, the man whose very eventful 47 years in the u.s. senate are most defined by his work toward health care reform, some of the suspense about whether president obama is going to succeed at this and how

is over. before ted kennedy died the committee he chaired in the u.s. senate passed his health reform bill and calls for a major reform of the private insurance market and for americans to have the choice of buying into a medicare-type system if they want to. it is not exactly medicare for all like he pushed for in the past but still would be a big leap forward. the political question of the summer was how a bill like kennedy's could get through the next hurdles in congress. specifically a second senate committee that inexplicably decided to let three members of the republican party have an equal voice in deciding what passed despite the fact republicans are vastly outnumbered on that committee as they are throughout the senate because, frankly, republicans got creamed in the last election. now today that question can be answered. republicans on the finance committee and in general are not going to support kennedy's health reform bill. or any health reform bill. they are just not. one or two or three of them may

peel off from their party in support of the individual, the party as a whole, no. no. not going to do it. as of today the suspense is over because the white house appears to have finally received that message that the republicans are not going to help. here's press secretary robert gibbs speaking today about the likelihood of getting any republican vote. >> looks like republicans are stepping away from seeking a bipartisan solution. some of the comments that have been made, certainly seems to suggest, i think, to anybody that reads them that they seem to be less interested in the bipartisanship they talked about only a few weeks ago. >> so at the end of a long, hot politically dirty august, what has finally convinced the white house of this? what's finally convinced the white house the republican party has no intention of supporting health reform? how have they finally come to terms with whatever they are going do they will not get any help from the republican party

to do it may have been the fact one of the three republicans, those three magic republicans working with democrats to craft this bipartisan bill, one of them gave this week's republican radio address in which he shared his belief that health care reform is, you guessed it, really a secret plot to kill old people. >> the bills would expand comparative effectiveness research and that would be used to limit or deny care based on age or disability of patients. >> no, it wouldn't. that's senator mike enzi. erstwhile health care reform negotiator who turns out to be a deather. meanwhile "the washington post" ezra klein unearthed a fund raising letter sent out by senator chuck grassley of iowa. he is the top republican on the health care in the senate and with senator enzi was supposedly working on a bipartisan bill

with democrats. there you have it. the political blessing of obviousness. two of the republicans who had been gifted, this inexplicable role in shaping policy because they're the most reasonable guys the democrats could find to negotiate with? two of those people are spreading the kill old people conspiracy theory and they are raising money on their prospects for defeating obama care. the white house now apparently gets it. thanks to the gift of obviousness. we all understand that this is not going to be a bipartisan thing. the real question, really important question moving forward is what can democrats really get done on this age-old

american political problem if they've got zero republican votes? joining us now is a man that caucuses with the democrats but is a proud independent from the state of vermont, senator bernie sanders. senator, thanks very much for coming back on the show. >> good to be with you. let me ask you to dispute my premise right off the bat. do you think that there are zero votes for health care reform among republicans in the senate? >> rachel, i believe that for many, many months -- it is sad for knee took the administration that long to catch up with reality. republican party today is enormously obstructionist. they have no desire to address the enormous crisis that the american people are facing in health care with so many people uninsured and underinsured, a million people going bankrupt. you talk about death panels and 18,000 people a year die because they don't get access to a doctor when they should. so it does not surprise me that the republicans have not come onboard. i don't believe they ever had any intention to. >> last time you and i spoke,

you said that if republicans were going to stonewall on something like the public option, you could support using budget reconciliation rules to beat a republican filibuster and pass health reform without any republicans. do you think that is going to be the way that this moves forward? >> i think there are two things that have to be done. remember, in the senate we have 60 people in the democratic caucus. that in fact once massachusetts senator, another senator, that is enough to beat back republican filibusters and every democrat in this country must demand that every member of the caucus stand firm against republican filibusters. then we can develop a strong health care reform plan which focuses on prevention and increases primary health care and which makes sure that every single american has coverage which begins to deal with the absurdity of the insurance companies cutting people off because of a pre-existing condition or because they got sick in the previous year. i think what we need to do is

get 60 votes to stop the republican filibuster and where we can, a little tricky, but where we can, certainly use the reconciliation package. >> just to be clear, you are separating the issues of the fill buster and the bill that's alrea already voted on. so those who have said they would not support the legislation you would for example you're saying activists who want health reform should pressure them to vote no stop the republican filibuster. >> absolutely. >> and so that there can be an up or down vote on the bill. >> absolutely. it is a lot easier to go forward in a comprehensive way to regular order. that means stopping the republican filibuster and then bringing forth vote. like i said many times, if some of the conservative democrats don't want to vote for final passage because we have a strong public option, taking on the insurance companies and drug companies, fine. all we need is 50 votes plus the vice president. that is the preferred route. if you can't do that, then you use reconciliation and that's a harder approach to bring forth comprehensive reform.

>> i guess -- this is -- outside the senate and outside washington and don't know how the politics of these things work. i'm guessing that since there has been a defacto 60-vote rule to get anything through since the republicans have been in the minority and democratic leadership has not made a ton of noise about that, i'm guessing that they are not interested -- not inclined towards trying to hold all the democrats together to stop that republican filibuster. are you getting any support for this idea? >> we are. hot and cold. the leadership on occasion made it clear they expect everybody to vote against the republican filibuster. unfortunately, the next thing there has been reversal on that. i think that the bottom line is what we need is the president -- need the democratic leadership to be articulating very clearly what real health care reform means and take on the right wing echo chamber which is lying and distorting what we are trying to do, rally the american people.

and as the president did so brilliantly during the campaign. in my view, once the american people understand the -- distortions coming from the right wing, once they -- we can rally people who have no health insurance, small business people who are going out of business today because they can't afford soaring costs, i think we can bring forth a strong bill and make the american people proud. >> senator bernie sanders, independent of vermont. thanks for joining us tonight, sir. always great to have your clear perspective on this stuff. >> coming up, there is a place where torture yields totally reliable intelligence. a place where threatening to kill someone's children is just one way to earn a medal. that place, of course, is planet cheney. we will suit up and visit with our friend chris hayes for safety in just a moment. ♪ (announcer) regular kool-aid. goes almost three times further than soda. kool aid. delivering more smiles per gallon.

so? mmmm ok. you were right. these healthy choice fresh mixer thingys, they taste fresh... say it again! what? say it like, "mmmm, these healthy choice fresh mixers taste freshh!!" they taste fresh... wait. what are you doing? got it. you're secretly taping me? you were good too! but you know, it wasn't a secret to us, we knew... yes, but it was a secret to me. of course, otherwise i would be sitting like this and completely block his shot. so that's why i was like... didn't you notice this was weird? no. they taste fresh because you make them fresh. healthy choice fresh mixers. in the soup or pasta aisle. massachusetts governor patrick announced a special election will be held january 19th. massachusetts voters can choose who they would like to fill out

the remainder of senator ted kennedy's term which ends in 2012. before he died last week, senator kennedy advocated massachusetts state law be changed. so the governor could appoint a successor for kennedy until that special election can happen. state lawmakers will hold a hearing to discuss that proposed change next week. and yet another occasion for the balance of the senate, big huge national politics of health care to all terms on arcane wrangling in one little state legislature. get your popcorn ready. i'm racing cross country in this small sidecar,

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there are certain basic elements that define life here

on planet earth. in general, we humans need air to breathe, water to survive, and we need facts in order to win arguments. the vitality of facts may not be among the essential elements of life on another planet within our galaxy. planet cheney. the former vice president reemerged yesterday after weeks in presumed orbit somewhere to give an interviews on fox news offering his response to the just released cia report which concluded that we don't really know how effective torture was or if you reside on planet cheney -- >> i think the evidence is overwhelming, the eits were crucial in getting them to cooperate and that the information they provided did, in fact, save thousands of lives and let us defeat all further attacks against the united states. >> the evidence is overwhelming. i think so. you know, the actual evidence from the cia review of the

torture program in 2004 doesn't say that at all. quote, there's limited data on which to assess their individual effectiveness. talking about interrogation techniques and in the case of abu zabida who was waterboarded 80 some times in one month the cia says it is not possible to say the waterboarding is the reason fortin ceased production or if another factor such as length of detention was the catalyst. on fact-free planet cheney, that counts as overwhelming evidence. that issue of the interrogation led to another fact-free but still iron-clad cheney assessment. >> it shows that mohammed and abu zabada provided the overwhelming majority of reports on al qaeda. both of them were uncooperative at first, that -- the -- application of an enhanced

interrogation technique, specifically waterboarding, especially in the case of khalid sheik mohamed really persuaded him he needed to cooperate. >> so says the transmission from planet cheney. if only we could hear from someone that's actually there at that interrogation. if only we could hear from, say, the fbi agent who first interrogated him. if only he could tell us what actually happened there. >> using intelligence interrogation methods, within the first hour, we gained important actionable intelligence. >> you say on the instructions of the contractor, harsh techniques were introduced which did not produce results as he shut down and stopped talking. correct? >> correct, sir. >> oh. >> enhanced interrogation techniques made him shut down and stom tap talking says the m who was there.

back here on planet earth, the facts with that interrogation are the exact opposite from news of planet cheney. you know, even in an interview that was so softball, conservative blogger andrew sullivan denounced it as a teenaged girl interviewing the jonas brothers, fox's chris wallace did manage to ask mr. cheney if he was okay with torture techniques that went even beyond those that were purportedly legalized by the bush lawyers. >> this -- inspector general's report which was just released from 2004 details specific interrogations. mock executions, one of the detainees threatened with a hand gun and electric drill, waterboarding 183 times. do you think what they did was wrong? >> it was good policy, properly carried and out and worked very, very well. >> even these cases they went beyond the specific legal authorization you are okay with it? >> i am. >> i am. even though they went through the motions of trying to make some kinds of torture look legal

on planet cheney, feel free to ignore even that cubic zirconia imitation of law. planet cheney is always fascinating. it seems to be the major voice of the republican party. his only competition for that is his own daughter who says the same things he does. the fact that dick cheney continues to be the voice of opposition to accountability for the torture years probably is the greatest political gift there could be for those of us who do want that accountability. joining us is chris hayes, article that investigated secret government activities after watergate is this week's cover story on "the nation." thanks very much for making the time. >> thanks so much, rachel. >> do you agree with the premise cheney is the voice of the opposition to investigating what happened in secret in the bush years? >> absolutely. i mean, the remarkable thing about cheney is how unapologetically evil he is.

right? there is no hedging, no mincing. when chris wallace says what about the mock executions which exceeded even the criminal allowances that your regime made for torture, what about those? he said, i'm fine with that. you know, what if they had actually carried out actual executions and actually killed the children? what if they had as john yuu assented to in house judiciary committee committee ordered them to crush the testicles of a child. this is fair game for cheney. i think it shows how insane his vision of national security is. >> your cover story is a call for wide, wide ranging inquiry. not at all like what has been announced from eric holder. very specific narrow look. you are calling for something

like the inquiry after watergate that gave us the presidential ban on assassinations and whole modern structure of congressional oversight for intelligence. cheney was in government while the church committee was happening. what did he think of it then? >> it is interesting. it was, i think, one of the key sort of defining traumas of dick cheney's political life. one of the things that happened during the bush administration was you know, they were incredibly secretive and had just -- obvious contempt for congress. there were people that said well, here is a guy dick cheney that served in congress and how could he loathe congress so much. a lot of it goes back to what he saw during the committee which was, frankly, the -- congress of the united states wrenching back some of the power, lot of power that had been taken from it throughout the cold war and he's given these -- interviews in which he talked about the -- that being a nadir of executive power and the fact that he is someone that's an executive power absolutist and

watching this happen, chief of staff under president ford and this kind of change taking place and he was watching it up close and i think that was a key trauma for him and inspired the wish to regain the executive power he saw lost there. >> now in a situation with cheney being the -- the foremost voice against investigating the bush years. we are back to church committee v. cheney. last question for you, chris. the democrats' political argument is that this president would rather spend its political capital on stuff like health reform and climate change and this is something that would be nice to clean up but would eclipse everything else the white house wants to do. the opportunity cost is too great. what do you think about that argument? >> well, i can understand if -- its plausibility. i don't think it's a crazy argument but it's proving wildly impractical to implement. the reason is that the white

house has defined any news about the torture regime or what happened in the last eight years as a distraction and, therefore, by their own definition, when there is any news, it is distracting. and if there was some sort of comprehensive inquiry put in place with a target date to release a report, what you would do is corral all this into one place and you wouldn't have this oscillating news cycle in which every week or two a new revelation and bookers across washington, d.c., rifle through their rol-o-dexes. they want to see what cheney they can get on television to apologize for torture. you would have a sustained inquiry to put this all in one place. it would be a politically beneficial to the white house to -- for something like that to take place because what they are doing right now isn't working morally and not constitutionally and not working practically politically. >> chris hayes, washington editor of "the nation" magazine. great cover story. thank you for making time to talk to us. >> i appreciate it. >> senator john mccain, as you know, earned his credibility on the subject of torture. he earned it the very, very, very hard way. senator john mccain says torture

is bad and it is wrong and it is illegal and it is not in our national interests. and senator john mccain now says that he does not want it to be investigated. this country definitely needs to focus on other ways to get energy. we should be looking closer to home. there are places off the continental shelf. natural gas can be a part of the solution. i think we need to work on wind resources. they ought to be carefully mapping every conceivable alternative. there is an endless opportunity right here.

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i think it harmed us, torturing harmed us. it harmed our image in the world. i think the interrogations were in violation of the geneva convention and the convention against torture ratified under president reagan. i think these interrogations once publicized helped al qaeda

recruit. >> senator john mccain speaking on cbs this weekend. coming out strongly in favor of investigating and potentially prosecuting americans who committed torture. very sorry. actually, john mccain did say all those things this weekend on cbs about torture being wrong band for the country and illegal but that was apparently his argument to not prosecute anyone. >> ought to go forward and not back. for us now to go back, i think, would be a serious mistake. i think it is a mistake. i think in the future we will find out it is a mistake. >> it was illegal. it was awful that we did that. we have to make sure that the people who did it get away with it. you know, because of his personal history as a prisoner of war, because of him being tortured and seeing the torture of his fellow prisoners in vietnam, john mccain's change of heart since the presidential campaign to say now that americans should not be held

responsible for torture and mistreating prisoners is both hard to understand and it is politically important. what john mccain thinks about torture really matters in this country. a bush justice department memo that was just released said cia told congress in 2007 that it wanted to use extended sleep deprivation. really extended sleep deprivation. keeping people awake for six days. the memo mentioned senator mccain by name. essentially bragging that he was one of the senators who was told about the sleep deprivation torture in advance. quote, in those -- in those classified and private conversations, none of the members expressed the view the detention and interrogation program should be stopped or the techniques at issue were inappropriate. well now senator mccain's office is denying his role in that, saying he told the cia he was, quote, opposed to unduly coercive techniques especially when used in combination or

taken too far including sleep deprivation. again, this is a little awkward. the cia brags that extreme sleep deprivation torture was on the up and up. had to be. even john mccain knew about it. mccain has spoken publicly many times but specifically about sleep deprivation being torture and his obvious objections to torture. now he is objecting to his name being used by the cia to justify them doing it. he still doesn't want any of this investigated? joining us now, someone that spent a lot of time trying to understand senator john mccain, ana marie cox. good to see you. after a campaign event in iowa in 2007, john mccain said this. he said after we passed the detainee treatment acts, 2006, then obviously anybody who violated any law of the u.s. would have to be held responsible. that was -- iowa 2007. now it seems like he no longer thinks that. do you have any insight into the change?

>> i actually spent a long time on the phone with people in senator mccain's office trying to get to the bottom of this. one thing i should say they are fighting hard about the sleep deprivation. i remember him talking a lot about that and it being torture. for some reason i'm not trusting the cia on that one. >> wait. let me stop you there. that's important. that's sort of -- that's the -- important and interesting thing. he's saying he doesn't want the investigation but tobts what the cia is saying about him. >> actually, it is -- he doesn't want special prosecutors involved. right now there -- as i'm sure you know there is an investigation going on and he fully supports that. there is a little puzzle about the lack of, you know, responsibility part. you know, if you want -- have an investigation and find things -- find out people did things that are wrong, then you would -- like to have something done about that. which he doesn't quite go that far.

i don't think that -- i don't think it is all his fault or that we should pin this all on him, back checking here. as you well know, his position now is pretty much identical to obama's. who also scaled back on his promise to prosecute torturers. >> sure. the question is whether or not senator john mccain will continue to be some sort of moral leadership on the issue of torture. what i don't understand is to change the -- change that very specific statement. saying anybody who did anything illegal after the detainee treatment and military commission's act, anybody who wanted to sleep deprive somebody in 2007 would have to be held responsible. now the cia is saying that was kosher because john mccain signed off on it. he is going nuts about them saying that. but still isn't asking for my -- for any sort of criminal investigation. i don't understand that. >> i don't understand it either. i don't think we heard the last from mccain on this one. again, like i got into a very heated argument with two different staffers today on this

who really wanted to emphasize that the senator has not changed his opinion on torture and that's very clear from what he said on "face the nation" yesterday. now it is a question of what is happening going forward. to me, it is not useful to have a law if you don't wind up prosecuting it. right? i would think that something mccain believes as well, i don't know exactly like what the -- i don't want to say there is a game being played but definitely when i talk to the -- his office today, there was a little bit of note of a told you so to their voices when they pointed out his position was the same as obama's. they kept on wanting me to emphasize that rather than the fact mccain seemed to have changed his mind. i have to say that may be true in which case i'm disappointed in both of hem. >> that says a lot less interesting about obama than john mccain which is the thing i'm trying to get to the bottom of. good to know there is a lot of energy in his office on this issue. i would love to hear an

explanation from them on the change in his position. we will try to get it from him. so far he doesn't want to be on the show. we will keep asking. >> thanks. ana marie cox, national correspondent for air america and contributor to playboy magazine. coming up, texas gubernatorial candidate publicly proclaims his hatred for the united states of america. he said it into a microphone on the steps of the state capitol. and governor perry's texas, this is a sort of reasonable strategy for trying to win an election there now. yes, yes. we've got the tape. hold on just a second. i cannot be one of the 61 million americans who do not refill their prescriptions on time. readyfill at cvs pharmacy automatically refills my prescriptions and reminds me to pick them up. you mean, reminds me to pick them up. [ chuckles ] stop by your local cvs pharmacy to ask if readyfill is right for you, and get a $25 coupon book. readyfill, only at cvs pharmacy.

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when state tourism slogans go wild. the texas tourism website says, texas, it's like a whole other country. some folks in texas take that way more literally than they should. the crazy video evidence is next along with wayne slater. kent jones will be here with a tribute to gas. the kind you put in your car i think. first it's time for a couple holy mackerel stories. the cap and trade bill.

it's inspired really momentous political fakery. you will recall that the coal industry pr firm stole letter head from groups like the naacp and then wrote letters to congress on the stolen letter head to make it look like the groups were against cap and trade. and when the coal industry set out to build a website supposedly showcasing real people, regular americans, against cap and trade because they just cared a lot about coal. the coal industry found those real people by buying pictures of them. they bought them from i stock photo.com. the coal industry has been hosting energy citizen rallies one of which we covered on this show because it featured oil company employees busting into the event by their employers which makes that rally one of a very specific type of citizen. today in "the washington post" they report that the energy citizen rallies end with an

emotionally poignant video that shows a whole bunch of people looking right in the camera and saying meaningfully, i'm an energy citizen. i'm an energy citizen. and me, i'm an actor paid to say i'm an energy citizen. quoting from today's "washington post," quote, some of those films video were actors, a petroleum institute spokeswoman said. had you already figured out energy citizen was funded by the american petroleum institute? we asked the american petroleum institute if we could please get a copy of that video. the one they are showing at public rallies all over the country. we were told by them that it was not available publicly for contractual reasons. that sort of thing happens when you hire actors. so if you have attended one of the institute funded rallies and you happen to tape the event with your camera phone or some other device, you know you could e-mail me. rachel@msnbc.com. i'm just saying. finally, there is a new social

networking site online. give a little helping hand. if it is for people that just do not think that that myspace and facebook are republican enough, the site is republicanville.com. and it look like a lovely place to meet people who share your same political orientation if you are a republican. could be a nice place to upload from photo shop or something. i wouldn't go there looking for a job, though. there is just one. one job listed in the job section. it is for an internship at republicanville.com. i'm guessing that's without health insurance. moothing shamp, pantene smooth vitality. experts at good housekeeping agree. they gave it their seal. [ male announcer ] pantene delivers damage protection results leading salon brands can't beat. [ stacy ] it's just a tiny little transformation from dry, damaged hair, to shiny fabulous hair. women like you agree. [ male announcer ] readers' pick, pantene ice shine.

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♪ for fresh delivery taste without the delivery price, it's digiorno. ♪ once upon a time the sixth largest air force in the whole wide world was the air force of iraq. around 1990 they had french mirage fighter jets and soviet-made mig fighters like the ones that tom cruise dispatched in "top gun."

something like 750 aircraft. in gulf war i the u.s. went for iraq's air power first and bombed their air force pretty much to smithereens. iraq managed to save about 100 of their aircraft at the time by sneaking them into iran. but then iran decided to keep those planes. they wouldn't give them back. now in this life war time the air force is decimated. they have zero jets and mostly just helicopters. are the fortunes of the iraqi air force about to change again? their defense ministry announced this weekend iraq just found 19 of its soviet era mig fighter jets in serbia. they misplaced them. saddam sent them over to serbia in 1989 for maintenance and for a bunch of reasons serbia has had them ever since. now iraq says it wants them back. serbia says except for one that it kept in a museum in belgrade most of the jets are in pieces. even if they weren't, by the way, they would still be

20-year-old soviet migs. still got to start somewhere. right?

we think it is time to draw the line in the sand and tell washington that no longer are we going to accept their -- oppressive hand in the state of texas. >> some residents of the great state of texas have had enough of the oppressive hands that feeds them. over the weekend, they decided to bite it. it was nearly five months ago

texas governor rick perry came out publicly in support of a resolution affirming texas sovereignty. and opening the door to the possibility of breaking apart the united states of america by having texas secede from the union. now a group of secessionists calling themselves the texas nationalist movement is demanding that governor rick perry make good on his threats. the secessionists held a rally this weekend on the capitol steps in austin lamenting that governor perry wasn't there to support them and calling for a special session of the texas legislature to be called to debate whether or not texas should leave the country. many conservative politicians this summer have enjoyed trying to get the support of the fringys among us by making extreme statements whether senator coburn saying the u.s. deserves threats of assassination and other political violence right now, whether it's congressman phil

gingery saying people should bring guns to public meetings or governor perry saying maybe texas ought to secede. the problem is this is what happens when a supposedly main stream politician feeds the fringe. watch this. >> i hate that flag up there. that flag above the texas plague that's the united states flag and i hate the united states government. it will not be part of texas anymore. >> we are aware stepping off into secession may in fact be a bloody war. we are aware. we understand that the tree of freedom is occasionally watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots. >> health care, health care. >> get a job. get a job. >> we want freedom, total and

complete freedom, secession. secession is the answer! we hate the united states. get out of our lives. get off our backs. move on. >> governor perry, i and the rest of the people of texas if you abrogate this leadership we will take up this banner and we will march it forward. yes, we can! >> yes we can. yes we can. >> yes, we can. i don't think that means what you think it means. the single most amazing thing about that tape we just saw, the i hate the flag, i hate the u.s. guy, i hate the united states of america, that guy is running for governor in texas. the woman who said we're ready for a bloody war also running for governor in texas. or is it president?

to be president of the nation of texas? joining us now is "dallas morning news" senior political reporter wayne slater author of the book "bush's brain, how karl rove made george w. bush presidential." thanks for coming back on the show. good to see you. >> great to be with you. >> so no rick perry at the secession event after his big splash at the tea parties this spring why do you think he didn't show up? >> i think this is an object lesson and be careful what you ask for because you may ask for secession and then you end up with the lunatic fringe on the capitol steps calling for you to do something about it. clearly, rick perry is trying to divide the field here. on the one hand he wants to talk about secession and states rights and the tenth amendment and state sovereignty to fan the flames of the right wing of his party for re-election. on the other hand, he doesn't want to position himself so that

just normal conservative republicans think he is too closely aligned with the kooks. >> what are the political risks there in terms of seeming too politically aligned with the kooks? is it possible to seem that way right now in republican politics in texas? is it possible to seem too extreme and that be the reason you lose a republican primary? >> well, it doesn't seem that way, does it? >> that's why i'm asking. >> you have, in fact, kay bailey hutchison the challenger of rick perry saying she thinks the secession talk is silly. she's calling for an enlightened republicans -- i guess in texas that means those who go to nascar but don't put the confederate flag on their window of the car. this is really an appeal to a conservative constituency in the primary, the republican primary, that is very, very conservative. now, on the one hand you don't want to appeal to folks whose

main sort of method of operating is to call for you to pick up your guns and go to the hills. on the other hand, talking about states rights and state sovereignty and anti-washington rhetoric really pays dividends here. >> if hutchison is going to run to perry's left on the issue of sovereignty and state rights and the prospect of rights and the progress of procession, i haven't asked you. your experience guide in politic, are there chances this run for re-election would rep up for kerry. would there be a formal debate of it in the legislature? >> this group, in fact, is asking the governor to run for special session to put the issue on the ballot for texas voters to vote to us is seed from the

union. it's illegal. it's likely the governor will not do this. but the governor would like to fan the flames, the heat of the conservative republicans who liked the idea of independence, who like the idea of saving sovereign, they don't like barack obama and the federal government and he's using something like the discussion of succession but not really succession to build his profile. >> he's author of the book "bush's brain" how karl rove made president brush presidential invaluable at all times. coming up, keith asks blackwater jerry skahill about the outrage of how the cia did with the bush approval. stay with us.

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favorite thing in whole world is the rose parade. the minnesota independence is reporting on the arts at the minnesota state fair. >> that would be good. >> political seed art. for example, we have this one here. obama's birther is tiff case in seed. little guy on the corner saying move on expletive birthers. and from the most amazing quotes. look at all of this stuff at rachael.msnbc.com today. chris matthews is unnext tonight. good night. >> let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington.

leading out tonight, back to the fight. tonight we return. the central question of american political life, what kind of a country do you want to live in? one that applies by international law and treats our enemies by the geneva convent n conventions or is this a country that whatever the public leaders decides is necessary in the defense, anything they decide is necessary. we know with dick cheney stands. he's with the whatever you think is necessary people led by dick cheney. he's defending the bush-cheney use of what a lot of people call torture. he's attacking the obama white house for the unusual use of defenders. an agency he bullied and ridiculed for eight years in his role as vice president. he's getting hit by john mccain with two advantages over cheney. one, he knows what it