muddled. we'll talk about that. also, the lockerbie situation, the release of the lockerbie bomber, that situation is heating up. we've got a live report from london coming up. john burns, "the new york times" bureau chief is going to join us. vicky ward from "vanity fair" has new reporting on that. we'll talk to her. pete hamill will be here. and we have some photos for you. willie, can we show some of the others? >> what is going on with that thing? >> it's basically fraternity hazing at the united states embassy in kabul. wait until you see these pictures. >> what were they doing? >> do you know what an elephant walk is, mike? >> i don't want to know what an elephant walk is. don't tell me. >> i'll tell you later. >> i saw some of those photos you showed on "way too early." i thought you took them this past weekend at a picnic. >> i think we should show some of the others. >> the ones i showed on "way too

early" are the tame ones. >> in kabul. it's a war zone. >> what are you going to do? >> you've got to entertain yourself. >> i understand that. >> a lot going on. first, time for a look at some of today's top stories. >> wait. look who's here. >> i take responsibility for his tardiness. >> funny. i'm getting to the news. we've already done the intros. >> it was my fault. i asked him to be a guest on "way too early." >> doesn't really affect the rest of my day. >> you were on vacation in bar harbour when you did it. i was at boystown. >> today you have your headmaster outfit on. >> i do. little jimmy o'shanahan down at boystown. >> get yourself together. >> at the orphanage. >> i felt bad interrupting that. >> i'm going to do the news now.

i feel bad interrupting news, but i'm going to move on now. you can get your act together, maybe even put on some contact lenses. it would be great. here is the news this morning. with the help of cooler temperatures, firefighters are making significant progress against the massive wildfire raging near los angeles. it has burned an estimated 200 square miles and destroyed at least 62 homes so far. although the fire is now more than 20% contained, officials say the fight is still far from over. >> we're in a boxing match. i think we're even today. so we're not at the upper hand yet. the fire still has a lot of potential, and it's a very big animal out there. >> big story. a senior adviser says next week or so president obama may deliver a speech to lay out his priorities for healthcare reform. it's not clear if the president will push explicitly for a public health insurance option.

the new approach comes with senate negotiations mired in gridlock and growing confusion among the american public. a new cnbc news poll shows 60% of voters say the president has not clearly explained his proposal to overhaul the system. meanwhile, the white house seems to be shutting support among the critical middle ground. according to cnn, 53% of independent voters say they disapprove of the way the president is handling the job. it is the first time the poll shows a majority of independents unsatisfied with the president's performance. we'll talk about that coming up. english and scottish officials say newly released documents show there was no economic incentive to free a convicted libyan terrorist. it follows reports the release was aimed at boosting economic ties with libya, particularly in oil exploration. critics say the bomber, though dying of cancer, did not deserve the compassionate release. the conservative leader david cameron is turning up the heat as he tries to unseat prime minister gordon brown's

government in the upcoming election. >> the british prime minister has got to be straight with the british people. for weeks he's been refusing to say publicly what he wanted to happen to megrahi, yet we now learn, apparently, privately, the message was being given to the libyans that he should be released. i don't think we can now trust the government to get to the bottom of this. i think the time has come for an independent inquiry led by a former permanent secretary or a former judge to find out what more papers need to be released so we can see what the british government was doing in our name. witnesses say in indonesia a powerful earthquake caused buildings to sway and triggered a tsunami alert along the coast this morning. the u.s. geological survey puts the quake's preliminary magnitude at 7.4. no immediate reports of injuries or large waves. we'll keep you posted. the first spacewalk of the shuttle "discovery's" mission is being called a success despite a few glitches. astronauts lost communication with mission control for about a

half hour. still they were able to complete their main tasks. that's a quick look at the news. we're all here. pete is at the table. >> it's great to have you here. mika, you didn't read the last story. dave line, wall, new jersey, only in america. spitzer's hooker's mom shocked he's back in. >> and you're putting this up. >> i'm giving it a shot because the "new york post." if i can finish -- this is about journalism here. pete hamill is here. we can have a little journalism seminar, and you can sit back and eat your bon bons. it is good old fashioned reporting to hear a couple of people talking at otv and saying, hey, i hear spitzer may

run and put that on the front page yesterday. but to call the hooker's mom in wall, new jersey -- >> and they actually talked to her. she's in a bikini. >> the mother? >> i think so. >> hold on a second. >> yeah. that's not her? >> i don't know. >> dupre's mom. that's the mom. >> the apple doesn't fall. but anyway -- >> father knows best. >> to go on the second day and have the hooker's mom responding to what was overheard at otb and put it on your front page for a second day, i'm sorry. that is sheer genius. >> we are in pulitzer territory now. >> that is journalism the way it used to be done. >> i'm so glad you showed up. >> people don't go knock on doors anymore, ask questions, and find stories. they're doing it. >> climb those tenement steps,

knock on the door, and ask mom. >> talk to little jimmy o'toole, see if he's overheard anything. >> talk to the father. >> father creeden. >> we golfed with creeden. >> we played creeden 15 holes at the bobby kennedy memorial. ah, creeden, creeden. i'm going to give up the game. every shot. boom. we leave, and i'm not suggesting the father might have played around with his score, but he was 4 under the last three holes and won a nintendo 64. closest to the pin. creeden with the ankle wedge. >> that's the good lord working. let's go to bill karins for a check on the latest forecast. >> i haven't talked to pete hamill about journalism the way it used to be and the way it can be again. thank you, "new york post." >> mika, the more you fight it,

the worse it gets. painful. but funny. let's talk about hurricane jimena this morning. this powerful category 4 storm. yesterday it weakened to a category 2. the eye popped back out. it is skirting the coast of baja california. it is mostly a rural area. we'll see some damage, but it shouldn't be extreme. yesterday tropical storm erika formed in the atlantic not far from the virgin islands. we do have tropical storm warnings out. this is a storm we'll have to watch. it's going to be a slow mover, but in general it's going to move towards the bahamas and then could take the track up the east coast or go to the west. this is a really disorganized storm. it's too early to say what's going to happen. it's at least a week away to hit the u.s. eastern sea board. we have plenty of time to watch it. the weather is going to continue, perfect september weather. look at this forecast. upper 70s, low humidity. the deep blue sky will continue out there. when i lived in the carolinas, we used to call it the carolina blue sky. 82 in raleigh.

72 in chicago. we're still watching the heat in l.a. firefighters will battle the heat. humidity is up, though. that should help them a little bit. that's your perfect blue sky wednesday forecast. >> bill, you're perfect. that's great. >> let me get this straight. when he was in carolina and the skies were blue, they called that carolina blue sky. who ever knew people could be so imaginative in the south. >> okay. >> you know what we call it here, bill? >> what do you call it? >> that new york blue sky. >> no. >> you know what we called it in florida and the sky was blue? florida blue sky. >> maine blue sky. i love that. >> that's pretty too. this summer, the nantucket blue sky. >> you're the prism of my world. >> you could write headlines for the "new york post." >> am i a good enough journalist? >> i think we should show mom's picture again. people don't believe this. that's mom.

it's on page 16. >> there's mom. >> pete hamill, you said that the "new york post" is the newspaper you love the most, as we look at page 5 of the "new york post" today, tell us why you love it. >> they don't put whistler's mother on page 5. they put this young woman's mother in a bikini, which is great. you can't make it up. >> only in america and only at the "new york post." >> what are they selling today? >> willie. >> anyway, if you advertise in the post, your ads also get shown on "morning joe." willie, what are you looking at? >> it's been an odd first seg many. i'm going to come out and say it in a good way. you want a poll? mike loves polls. settle down. barack obama, as we've been talking about the last couple of weeks, flirting with that 50% approval rating. gallup came out with a poll.

we want to show how many months it took recent presidents to dip below 50%. george w. bush, 37 months, jimmy carter 13, reagan 10, clinton 4, gerald ford 3. we're at 9 months right now. >> when george bush got below 50%, he made up for lost time. he made his time in the cellar count. >> isn't the poll about how independents are feeling about the president? that's significant. >> obama's job approval among independents, 53%. it's the cnn poll, 53% of independents disapprove. now a majority of independents, accord to go this poll, disapprove. those people in the midding. >> we need to talk about that coming up. >> that's a frightening poll, something the white house has known is coming for quite some time. they've lost control of this debate. >> what do you think it is? >> it's the same thing, and people get angry when i say it. it's the same thing, '92, '93,

'94, the independents, the people that don't trust republicans or democrats, they think the government is growing too fast, spending too much. they confuse deficits with the size of government. >> i agree with you. they say the deficit's too high, and that means a lot of things. >> but i think there's also independents who are alarmed at afghanistan. they look at this and say, what is this? people are older, middle aged, remember lyndon johnson's great society and what happened to it because of vietnam. there's a whole lot of reasons that independents might be doing this. even that poll, reagan dropped because the economy was a calamity. once the economy started recovering within reagan went back up in the polls. >> we shall see. >> it's not like it's irreversible. >> a year from now, we'll look

at job numbers. do we see unemployment numbers down. >> you see the signs. it's definitely getting places. we'll talk more about that poll, though, and what it could mean coming up. also coming up, congressman from indiana. mike pence. and dan senor from the council on foreign relations. and vanity fair correspondent vicky ward. but first an exclusive look at the stories making headlines this morning on politico. we'll be right back on "morning joe." i'm here on this tiny little plane, and guess what... i've still got room for the internet. with my new netbook from at&t. with its built-in 3g network,

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wildfires still burning throughout southern california. officials have ordered some residents to evacuate their homes, but some people are refusing to go. here's the latest.

now governor schwarzenegger is personally trying to get people to evacuate. we have this very exciting news footage to air. take a look at this. >> come with me. i'm the governor. >> i'm not leaving my home. >> but it's for your own safety. oh, you crazy old woman. oh. >> i'm staying here. >> i'll put your head through the coffee table. >> okay. i'll go. >> that's a nice personal touch by the governor going house to house helping people evacuate. >> just doing a service. >> it is rough out there. with us now, the chief political correspondent for politico, mike allen. he's got a look at the politico playbook. good morning, mike. >> arnold is a tough act to follow. >> if there's one guy who could follow arnold schwarzenegger. >> it's willie geist. >> no, it's mike allen. got to ask you about a story i first read on politico yesterday about harry reid with, let's call it an unfortunate response to a question from a reporter. tell us about it. >> a reporter from the las vegas

review journal, a local paper, asked harry reid an obvious question, and that is how will the death of senator kennedy affect healthcare? senator reid, every once in a while, you're like you know you just said that out loud? he sort of verbalized what it's fine to think, and that is he was thinking in strategic rather than human terms. and he said, well, i think that the death will help us. he used that phrase, it will help us. >> you don't say that. >> the quote is "i think it's going to help us." >> no, he didn't. yes, he did. >> that's unfortunate. >> speaking of unfortunate, have you seen these pictures from the embassy in kabul? >> i can't figure this. >> i took them. >> mike allen, seriously, what is going on in the pictures? these are the tame ones. there are much worse ones if you look online. what are we looking at? what's the issue? >> what we're seeing is the activity of government contractors, state department

contractors who are supposed to be guarding the embassy in kabul. this raises questions about the number of contractors that we have in war zones. there are now more u.s. contractors in afghanistan than they are u.s. troops. so what we're seeing in these photos and videos that were put out by a watchdog group through senator claire mcaskill's office is evidence that there was a complete breakdown in discipline among these people who are supposed to be guarding the embassy. there's a photo of someone eating a potato chip in a way that's not very appetizing. there's a video of someone drinking a vodka shot in a way that vodka should not be drunk. >> mika says vodka should be drunk any way you can drink it. >> not this way. >> they wrote a report to hillary clinton saying it was a "lord of the flies" environment. the pictures we showed her are not -- they don't illustrate the problem exactly, but we couldn't

show them here. >> the big problem is they're all wearing a black mask. how are you going to guard the embassy when you can't see? >> mike allen, thank you. thanks for bringing us those pictures. check it out at politico.com. >> do you think if something happened, like if mike went out and got hit by a bus today, would that be good for the show? i think it would help us. do you think it would help us? >> i think it would help us. >> i don't know if you've inquired yet about -- because i did this yesterday. i tried to get swine flu vaccines for my kids, can't get them. they may give them in school. >> in october. >> we're going to go to this next report. there's interesting stuff in the paper about it. >> they're going to send the fire trucks to the building after the building burns down. they can get them in october. >> it sounds like it. here's nbc's chief science correspondent robert bizell with more on the story. >> reporter: after a briefing on swine flu from cabinet members and health experts, president obama warned the new virus will cause challenges this fall. >> the way it's moving is still

somewhat unpredictable. i don't want anybody to be alarmed, but i do want everybody to be prepared. >> reporter: as part of that preparation, new york city said it would offer voluntary vaccinations to all its 1.1 million schoolchildren. >> there is a strong possibility that the virus which cropped up in our city in may and june will return sometime this fall or this winter. >> reporter: already big outbreaks are occurring at schools and colleges across the country. in north carolina, wake forest university just reported 80 suspected cases. the vast majority of the new cases are in young people. most are moderate or mild. but in about 1 in 1,000 cases the infection turns very serious very quickly. 27-year-old new york city police officer ryan johnson was perfectly healthy, did not even get a fever, only chest pains, and then died suddenly. >> ryan was nothing but smiles and love. he really -- he was the

happiest, most caring gentle soul ever. >> reporter: officials say large quantities of vaccine will not arrive until november. until then, the best defense is the one promoted in this sesame street public service announcement. >> always wash your hands. >> yeah, come on, wash with elmo. wash, wash, wash. >> reporter: a humorous reminder of the best way to fight a potentially serious threat. robert bazell, nbc news, washington. >> i predict this is going to be one of the big stories. this flu season, there are not going to be enough vaccines to everyone in new york. they're giving them only to the young and the people at risk. >> i just don't understand how we knew this spring how dangerous this was. >> it's in the production. there are issues in the production. >> and that they don't have it ready for our kids when they go back to school. >> kids will probably get it. >> it's not like we didn't see this coming. >> still ahead, nbc political correspondent harold ford jr. and the latest headlines out of the white house with chuck todd. plus from the council on foreign

relations, dan senor. show and tell

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28 minutes past the hour. just before 6:30 on the east coast. time for a look at some of the day's top stories. officials in california say fire crews are beginning to get a handle on the deadly station fire burning near los angeles. still many homes remain under evacuation orders with the fire expected to burn for several more days. the two american journalists detained for months in north korea are providing the first detailed account of their ordeal. in a statement, laura ling and euna lee admit to crossing the border into north korea but say they were taken into custody after returning to china. they also raised the possibility that their guide may have lured them into a trap. and in new york, there are plans to exhume the body of a woman who killed herself and seven others when she collided with another car while driving the wrong way down a busy parkway. the woman's family hopes new testing will show she was not drunk and high on marijuana at the time of the crash. they refute earlier toxicology tests and say she may have suffered a stroke.

i actually saw her family talking on the air yesterday. so sad. so sad. it's raised the issue, though, about how many people drink and drive, and women, an increasing number of women who do. puts some awareness on those numbers whether that's true. let's take a look at the morning papers. >> first of all, let's go to the washington times. "sanford vows to remain in the fight to stay as governor but is shaken by the absence of gop support. former attorney general alberto gonzales supports eric holder's decision to probe cia interrogation tactics. >> "new york times" tribal leaders say karzai's team stole votes. >> about 22,000. buchanan stole a hell of a lot more in '68. "the washington post," taliban surprising u.s. forces with improved tactics. >> "the wall street journal," global economy gains steam. jobs still a worry, but factory

output rises in u.s., china, and france. >> economy seems like it's waking pup. "usa today," some schools budget cuts, and they shut down sports. >> that is interesting because you would consider that life training, sports teams. >> not only that, our kids are getting fatter. they're eating more because they're exercising less. when we all grew up, my mom got me out of the house at 7:00 a.m. i played until it was time to eat dinner. >> that's because she didn't want you there. >> that's because -- whether she hated me or not, you know, i don't want to get into that right now before we read the "usa today." all i can tell you is it kept me skinny. >> and in human company. >> right. >> not solitaries with xboxes. >> everybody has xboxes and iphones. >> virtual childhood. >> everybody is going inside. >> let's look at the miami herald. offshore drilling in florida? a coalition of oil companies is

looking to open florida's western shores to oil drilling. >> pensacola. "indianapolis star." indiana university has a plan to offset tuition hikes. students with at least a "b" average get to pay less, $500 in credits. you get through that in beer on a weekend. >> there was a school we reported on radio that's paying you not to come. they have this college that they have so many people that accepted they're now paying them to take a year off, $5,000. >> i'll take it. >> guess they don't have budget problems. >> i guess it was cheaper to keep them from coming. coming up next, from the council on foreign relations, dan senor. and the must read opinion pages. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. (announcer) your doctor knows tylenol doesn't interfere with certain high blood pressure medicines the way aleve metimes can.

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of course, the healthcare debate is raging. yesterday john mccain spoke to nearly 100 doctors and nurses. that's right. it wasn't a political meeting. it was mccain's annual checkup. >> wow. that's not right. >> that's not kind. >> welcome back to "morning joe." 35 past the hour. here with us now, adjunct senior fellow at the council on foreign relations, former foreign policy adviser in the bush administration, good lord, and former senior adviser to the coalition in iraq. do you require that we say all these things? are you a diva? >> just say dan senor. happy to be here. happy to get up at 5:00 a.m. >> with a little baby that keeps you up all night. >> all night, every hour, little asher. >> we appreciate your being here. let's get to the must read op eds. what i learned from the mob.

"a more convincing argument would be this. let's save money by spending less. this argument doesn't require a clever explanation, but it does require putting the government in the position where it has to set realistic priorities. most families realize they can't live indefinitely on borrowed money and would be delighted if the government joined them in the real world of tough spending choices." joe, do you see the parallel in this and the reaction that the president is getting now from independents where a majority disapprove? >> there's no doubt about it. listen, you talk about the bill here, $900 billion, maybe $1 trillion. mike barnicle, that is nothing compared to what's been spent over the past couple of years, nothi nothing. i think americans are just overloaded. they're saying enough is enough. our savings rate is up to 7% now. i think they're overloaded. >> overload is the right word. if you figure it out, it's now

september 2009. in the last year, the united states -- people in the united states have seen the election of a new, in all sorts of ways, president of the united states. they're seen their 401(k)s collapse a year ago last september. they've seen financial institutions that they're familiar with on tv, all the ads disappear. they've seen a president be inaugurated and announce we're going to have an entirely new health plan. there's going to be structural change in this country that you're unused to, having completed. and all of this stuff has createded an overload. >> cap in trade. >> a budget that actually doubles the one that george w. bush gave us, which is a hell of a big debt. >> and bottom line is the money and the fact that right now, a year later, this september you're taking your kids, you're going to the department store to get new back to school clothes, and you do something completely normal to you that the government doesn't do. you ask yourself, can we afford

this blazer? >> how much? >> how much? and that's not going on in government. >> and pete hamill, you do see the independents breaking away. you're right. it could be about afghanistan as well as runaway spending. but over the past year, first with george w. bush and hank paulson, and now with geithner and barack obama, congress says that we've gone through guaranteed $23 trillion to banks and institutions. it's out of control. maybe that gets paid back. that's the big debate. but $23 trillion. it's staggering. >> and if you were like the person mike's talking about, trying to figure out can i afford this pair of sneakers for my kid and you read about guys still getting these insane bonuses and see the same players who made the mess -- >> that's right. recreating it. >> still in power.

that infuriates them. >> and we're not stupid. >> what we said yesterday to todd perdham with hank paulson sitting there, i was worried, blah, blah, blah -- these same people who created this mess are still in charge. it's not like geithner flew in from the moon septembdecember t. >> what who needs a $100 million bonus right now? >> goldman sachs are going to be giving out huge bonuses at the end of this year, and yet these small community banks can't pump any money out to small businesses to help get credit into these communities. that's what's so maddening. i was saying during the break, i spoke to this one congressman out west over the weekend, and he was talking about this. the things i hear most now are the tmpllingts word, trillion dollars. when we used to talk about deficits, it was the "b" word. now it's the "t" word. people understand that out there. and when they hear these stories in new york, big bonuses being

handed out when these institutions acted so irresponsibly, and small banks not being able to pump money into the local economy. >> i hear it too among democrats, and it's not the republican shrill far right, using words that don't need to be used in this conversation. it's common sense, is it not, joe? it's simple math. people are saving. they want their government to save. >> over this summer, we made a lot of -- i'll call them progressives because that's what they want to be called now. i believe in calling people what they want to be called. liberals/progressives. we made a lot of progressives really angry because we'd go out on my book tour, and mika and i would be talking to people. every day we'd say we have as many democrats as we did independents as we did republicans, and they're all scared to death. they all think we're spepding too much and moving too fast. and progressives would attack us through e-mails and twiters, say vicious things. >> yes. >> and would always say, just wait. you're going to see it in the polls. just wait.

you can hate me. you can shoot the messenger, if you want, but when we have this many democrats showing up when i'm selling a book on the future of conservatism. that's the subtitle. the future of conservatism, and i spend the entire book attacking george bush's spending habits and barack obama's proposed spending habits, and democrats respond to that as much as republicans as much as independents. we saw the storm coming in june and july. we said as much. and the left is not listening. the left is not listening not only across america. the left is not listening inside the obama white house, and, mika, they need to wake up. this is over. lawrence o'donnell was right in july. this fight is over, and they're going to keep bleeding until they figure out an escape route. they need to go back and read what george washington did in new york city, the early stages of the revolutionary war because they need to live to fight another day. >> i don't disagree with that, and i want to get to david

ignatius' piece. quickly, with the president preparing a speech on healthcare, yet another one, i have to say my first reaction had better be, gosh, it had better be something so searing in terms of clarity. >> we say it time and time again, and everybody yawns. >> he doesn't have a speech problem. he has a facts on the ground problem. people see these huge numbers, and they're freaked out. there's no speeches in the world and no sales numbers in the world. >> you're not appealing to a need out there. jobs. we need jobs. >> that's what mike barnicle kept saying also. we've had two huge crises. we've had trillions of dollars thrown at two crises. crisis number one, more of the mortgage crisis, right? destroyed our country. 90% of americans have not defaulted on their mortgage, right? that means 9 out of 10 americans say, i'm doing fine. could you please explain to me why we're spending trillions of dollars to help my next door neighbor that spent like a jackass for 25 years.

that's number two, they come back with healthcare. the sky is falling. the sky is falling. you're immoral. the sky is falling. it's coming to an end. worst healthcare in the world. "the washington post," 75% of americans like their healthcare plan. i say to my left leaning friends. i say to my progressives, wake up. on both of these issues, 3 out of 4 americans don't think the sky is falling. the media has been telling you that you are god-like and that you love more than conservatives and the conservatives are evil and they want to throw poor people down. that's great if it makes you sleep better at night, fine. embrace it. as lennon said, whatever gets you through the night. the problem is the overwhelming majority of americans didn't default on their mortgages and like their healthcare plan. how do you get around that. >> the wider problem for the administration, off of what dan said, is the longer this debate continues, the longer the

semantics of the debate create questions in people's minds -- public option, what do they mean public option? the more you become happy with your health plan. the more you hear them talk about how they're going to restructure health in america, the more you say to yourself, i think most people say, you know, i like what i have now. i hear these people on tv. i see these mobs on tv that we continue to show on cable, or i hear responsible politicians talking about here's what we have to do to help the uninsured. i like my health plan. >> what does public option mean? well, 100 americans, 99 probably wouldn't know. the 1% that didn't know, they would all have different opinions. co-op. what the hell does a co-op mean? even the top healthcare experts in america, i've read interviews in "the new york times." "the new york times" does a wonderful job going out and getting the top healthcare experts in america and interviewing them, and you can go online, and i recommend

americans do that. most of the top healthcare experts in america don't know what co-op means. how can the president sell this to americans if nobody knows what this healthcare plan is? >> the selling is over. >> we've got people that come in -- >> it's their number one promise. i don't know how they get beyond this if it fails. they're in a real tough spot. >> they need to narrow their focus. as we said weeks ago, and say for the 78% of americans that have healthcare, we're going to make your healthcare better. we're going to cut out preexisting. you can't get dropped for preexisting conditions. we're going to let your kids stay on longer. your insurance is going to move with you. we're going to do all of these things for you and make your life more secure instead of saying we're going to change everything. time is running out. >> time is running out. pete hamill, thank you very much. appreciate your coming in. >> portability, preexisting. >> barnacle plan. >> drop everything else.

>> pete hamill coming back tomorrow. dan senor, stick around if you can. >> are you coming back tomorrow? >> can you? we'd love you too. >> lock him in. coming up, the latest on the lockerbie bomber controversy with new york times' john burns and vanity fair contributor vicky ward. but first sports and willie's "news you can't use." pollen.

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away. 21 years old. michael vick said, hey, don't look at me. >> dave, that's just not right. time for a little sports. we're basically looking at wild card races at this point. red sox-rangers duking it out in the american league. giants, rockies, all kinds of stuff in the national league. fred roggin's got sports. >> thank you and good morning. it was a perfect chance for the rays to get back into the a.l. wild card race, but the red sox weren't having it. we go to florida, pick it up in the fourth, tied at 1. j.d. drew, a two-run shot, his 19th of the year, 4 in the last 8 games. red sox up 3-1. added insurance in the fifth. jason bay, if it's fair, it's gone. bay put the sox up 5-2 with a solo blast to left. rays with a chance in the eighth, down three, sacks full. jason bartlett. jacob ellsbury came up with a sliding grab in left field. rangers also in the wild

card taking on the blue jays. josh hamilton hit not one, but two home runs. they won both games of a twin bill in arlington. they're now just 3 1/2 back of the red sox in the wild card. great race between the twins and white sox. chicago down 3-1 in the eighth. gordon beckham bended one to left. to the ninth, runners on the corners. a walk-off single into the gap. twins won in dramatic fashion 4-3. phils and giants. ryan howard gave philadelphia a lead with a shot down the line. shane victorino trotted home. cole hamels took over from there, virtually unhittable. last year's world series mvp looked ready for the postseason. a complete game shutout. phils won 1-0. to colorado, carlos gonzalez fielding a rocky mountain high against the mets. launch a two-run home run into right. rockies beat the mets 8-3. that win moves them one game ahead of the giants for the n.l.

wild card. muhammad ali continued his tour of europe visiting ennis, ireland. thousands of fans lined the streets to catch a glimpse of the champ. several years ago, muhammad ali found out his great grandfather grady grew up in ennis before moving to the united states. and the rest, as they say, is history. it's been an excellent summer for ron artest. he signed with the lakers and then skipped town to circle asia with singer. and then artest gave us his cell phone number so we could find out what's popping. >> it's good. the voice of china. who's on the line? >> it's matt from long beach. >> what's up, baby? what's popping? >> here's what's popping from ron. a truly heartfelt rendition of celine dion's "my heart will go on." let's listen. ♪

♪ you're here there's nothing i fear ♪ >> the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. and, ron, that's what's popping. that's it for me. we'll talk to you guys tomorrow. >> thanks a lot, fred. and the college football season starts tomorrow. ron artest. college football season starts tomorrow night. saturday night, alabama-virginia tech at the georgia dome. coming up next, "news you can't use." these people are throwing fire balls at each other. i don't know why they're doing it, but we'll tell you when we come back. show and tell

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oh, is it time? please tell me it's time. >> it is. it's time for "news you can't use." quick quote. yesterday we learned that "madmen" getting a fourth season already. they've confirmed there's going to be a fourth season. >> let's light up. get a cigarette. >> based on the ratings, they're doing great this year. >> great. good news. >> has anybody here seen it? >> i have. >> i went to the opening. that's what i've seen. >> john hamm is great. >> he is. he's great. >> he is great. anybody that wants to negotiate needs to see how he negotiated with his brother-in-law. did you see that scene? >> yeah. >> no. this is what you're going to do. cold, cold. mika mentioned the big story, the swine flu, the problem we're going to have with that.

president obama out yesterday at a press conference talking a little bit like a third grade school teacher reminding us how to stay clean. here he is. >> we need everyone to take the common sense steps that we know can make a difference. stay home if you're sick. wash your hands frequently. cover your sneezes with your sleeve, not your hands, and take all the necessary precautions to stay healthy. >> did you know that? use the sleeve instead of the hands. thank you. the thing we want to point out here -- and i'm not saying anything about the president. he gave that press conference yesterday, it was almost the exact same address given by elmo. >> wait, elmo? >> the first thing you have to do to stay healthy is always wash your hands. >> come on. wash your hands with elmo. wash, wash, wash. >> and when you have to sneeze or cough, do it into the bend of your arm. >> sneeze into your arm with elmo. ah-choo.

>> great job. >> it is. >> the president would have had much more room if he'd done that with gibbs. >> elmo should do a pitch on healthcare reform. instead of the president doing the speech, elmo. i want to show you a picture from the connecticut state legislature. huge budget debate going on. watch the computer monitors. they're all playing solitaire. this is a long overdue budget fight. they're on the floor debating this thing. >> this is amazing. >> i know those people. >> we pull back a little bit, and you see a lot of espn.com. >> joe, you know, if you pulled the same camera shot in congress, you'd see the same thing. you know the drill. you've been there. >> never. >> i'll tell you what's on his computer. >> espn.com on the right there. that's what they're doing in the connecticut state legislature. >> terrific. >> real quick, cool pictures from el salvador. it's not a melee, it's not a brawl, it's not a protest.

this is actually a tradition. a tradition where they literally throw fireballs at each other. it's a strange way to commemorate a volcanic eruption in that country that happened in 1922. this is how they choose to celebrate. they throw fire at each other. >> they're competing with india for crazy rituals. >> they've got a long way to go, but this is a good place to start. fireballs chucking at each other. i've got one more thing at the top of the hour. joe scarborough kind enough to join me on "way too early." . >> that was nice of you. >> i don't know if you know this, but he has i guess security cameras in your bedroom. >> i guess he records everything. >> we captured a still photograph of joe. maybe you have a personal photographer. >> oh. >> this is joe as he was being interviewed on "way too early" today. smoking a cigarette, just littered with empty beer bottles. there he is, joe scarborough in bed this morning on "way too

early." >> because all of you know i carry, because of my work with orphans, a tremendous burden. we all deal with pain in a different way, right? >> yeah. >> this is how i do it. >> it's the battle between darkness and light that we've heard so much about. >> i know. and let's just say right now we're in the seventh round, and this is going to be a close call. as chairman mao said, it gets darkest right before it goes completely black. >> that's attractive. it's the top of the hour. welcome, everyone, to "morning joe." mime mika brzezinski along with joe scarborough. >> and you talked about hamm being great. john slattery. >> he's my favorite on the show. >> oh, my god, he's been amazing this year. >> we have a lot to go to, including new polls. >> and the best line of the week. >> what's that? >> i'm peggy olson, and i want some marijuana. >> vicky ward is coming up with

some new details. "vanity fair" reporting about the lockerbie bomber situation and pictures courtesy of -- is it our embassy in afghanistan? >> kabul. >> that you just don't want to miss. first, shall i do the news? >> sure. >> great. >> time now for a look at some of today's top stories. with the help of cooler temperatures, firefighters are making significant progress against the massive wildfire raging near los angeles. it has burned an estimated 200 square miles and destroyed at least 62 homes. although the fire is now more than 20% contained, officials say the fight is still far from over. >> if i were in a boxing match, i'd think we're even today. we're not the upper hand yet. the fire still has a lot of potential, and it's a very big animal out there. >> a senior adviser says in the next week or so, president obama may deliver a speech to lay out his top priorities for healthcare reform. still it's not clear if the

president will push explicitly for a public health insurance option. the new approach comes with senate negotiations mired in partisan gridlock and growing confusion among the american public. take a look at these numbers. a new cbs poll shows 60% of voters say the president has not clearly explained his proposal to overhaul the system. meanwhile, the white house seemds to be losing support among the critical middle ground. accord to go cnn, 53% of independent voters say they disapprove of the way the president is handling the job. it's the first time a poll shows the majority of independents unsatisfied with the president's performance. this is significant. >> well, it is. the president ran as a tro transformative figure. he was going to be able to bring everybody together. right now the only group that's supporting him, the majority group, are democrats. and as dan can tell you and anybody else that's ever worked inside the white house can tell you, there are different seasons

with every president, as i've said. this is -- you know what, it's a rough time right now. that doesn't mean the economy doesn't turn around six months from now and the president has 65% approval rating. >> even at the time he turns around, unemployment numbers are still going to lag. at the end of this year, you're still going to have high, high unemployment. >> that's the bottom line. >> what are we going to be doing -- what are we going to be seeing a year from now? if unemployment's at 11% a year from now, the mid terms are going to be ugly for democrats. if it's down half a point, a point, that will help. >> that will help. and the stimulus package, i don't know if there's going to be another one, will kick in. >> afghanistan is a mess. pakistan is a mess. who knows what's going to happen between iran and israel. the world is going to be complicated. it's scary for a lot of people. >> the best example of what i'm talking about is ronald reagan. 1980, conquering hero. 1982, vanquished. his poll numbers collapsed by

83. things were terrible. people thought reagan was going to be a one-termer, a failure. 1984, morning in america, he won 49 states. you can never tell how things are going to show. right now things are ugly. the president needs to stop the bleeding. >> we're going to be at the reagan library. >> we are going to be at the reagan library. >> cool. english and scottish officials say newly released documents show there's no economic incentive to free a convicted libyan terrorist. it follows reports the release was aimed at boosting economic ties with libya, particularly in oil exploration. critics say the bomber, though dying of cancer, did not deserve the compassionate release. now conservative leader david cameron is calling for an investigation. >> the british prime minister has got to be straight with the british people. for weeks he's been refusing to say publicly what he wanted to happen to megrahi. yet we now learn apparently privately the message was being given to the libyans that he should be released. i don't think we can now trust

the government to get to the bottom of this to argue the time has come for an independent inquiry led by a former permanent secretary or former judge to find out what more papers need to be released so we can see what the british government was doing in our name. >> mike barnicle, i'm not really good with protocol. do we start calling him prime minister now? >> mr. prime minister. >> mr. prime minister. >> prime minister-elect. >> we're going to be talking to john burns and vicky ward. john burns of "the new york times" and vicky ward of "vanity fair" with new reporting on this very story. it's sad. >> mr. prime minister-elect. we'll stay with that one. officials in indonesia say at least seven people are dead following this morning's strong earthquake off the coast of java. it puts the preliminary magnitude at 7.0. a tsunami alert was issued but cancelled less than an hour later. and the first spacewalk of the discover discover's mission is being called a success

despite a few glitches. astronauts lost communication with mission control for about a half hour, but still they were able to complete their tasks. >> does anybody have any idea of what value we get from these space shots? they're pretty. we get good video. >> tang. >> well, i mean, the russians. we've got to do it before the russian dozen it. >> they cost billions of dollars. >> let's do a segment on it and get someone in here to tell us exactly why. >> the chinese are going to try to do it. >> you want the chinese to colonize mars? they can shoot weapons down f m from -- i'm not going to even go there. it crosses the line. >> i want willie to show me the pictures from kabul. >> you want to see these? >> i want to see the real pictures. i don't want to see the ones that are all fixed. >> phil will fire me if i show you the ones that aren't fixed.

let me show you the okay ones. these are pictures taken at the united states embassy in kabul, afghanistan. this is part of a report sent to hillary clinton by an oversight group. it's a system of violations that are breaking down security and morale. basically, fra ternlt hazing. new people come in, they get hazed. they're drinking, smoking, getting naked. they're doing all kinds of crazy stuff. same pictures here, couple of guys nude having a few beers. who doesn't do that on the weekend? the ones we're talking about that you have to go online, there are ways to walk, i guess would be the word, where men get naked and line up. >> the elephant walk? >> the elephant walk. >> what's the elephant walk? >> every morning. >> they all parade around the embassy like that. and there's a way they've been drinking vodka shots where you put the shot in a certain place where it shouldn't be drunk.

bottoms up. >> secretary of state hillary clinton has -- >> it's actually pretty disgusting. >> has zero tolerance for the behavior described and has directed a review of the whole system. >> that's courageous. zero tolerance for this. >> there's a whole subculture in the private contracting world. some similar stuff in iraq. guess what? the contracting world has become a, for better or for worse, a permanent part of our presence in these places where we're fighting terrorism. >> i've heard this happens everywhere. >> i'm not excusing it. i'm not defending it. but there is a whole contracting world and community that is a big part of our security infrastructure. >> this is no shock to you. >> i personally haven't seen this when i was in iraq, but you hear stories. >> so it doesn't shock dan. >> it does not shock me at all. >> because you were in iraq, and dan, of course, this weekend was in vegas. it doesn't shock him.

mike barnicle, are you shocked? >> i thought it was pictures willie took this weekend. what do these guys make, private contractors? do you have any idea? >> they typically numb and out for two-month tours, and they pull in over the year, a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, a lot of the security contractors. >> so we have our young men and women wearing america's uniform making an average of, what, $14,000, $2$20,000 a year. >> but deploy a military member, training, benefits, and deployment is typically $120,000 a year, and they have lifetime benefits. the pentagon calculates to put a security contractor in there, you pay them a lot of cash for the year, but it's not a lifetime commitment to that individual, healthcare, benefits, continued training, et cetera. >> so big picture, affection. >> let's go to the big picture in afghanistan. >> there's a lot of people questioning whether or not we should be in there, or if we are still in there, how? >> david ignatius. can we read david ignatius'

op-ed? can we get that? >> i'll pull it up right now. >> david ignatius with "the washington post" responding. a lot of people talking about george wilkes' column yesterday, saying we need to get out of afghanistan. a lot of conservatives disagree. david ignatius suggests there's a middle l ground in afghanistan. let's go ahead and read that right now. >> putting it up here. he says, "obama will have to roll the dice when he decides on afghanistan strategy. mcchrystal's broad approach is risky, but so is the limited, counterterrorism alternative that biden and others are advocating. in truth, the kinetic counterterrorism approach is what we've been doing, and it hasn't been working. the bottom line, this may be one of those messy situations where the best course is to both shoot and talk -- a strategy based on the idea that we can bolster our friends and also bloody our enemies enough that somewhere down the road we can cut a

deal." but this is a long-term mess. >> ignatius is right in this sense. the kinetic sort of cruise missile counterinsurgency program, we've seen that movie. it was iraq from 2004 to 2006. it wasn't until we empowered david petraeus to go up to ft. leavenworth in kansas and spend a year with a new counterinsurgency plan, when things started to turn around. what george wilkes and others are looking for is a return to the iraq strategy in 2004 to 2006 and use it in afghanistan. it's not a counterinsurgency strategy. >> several months ago, everyone was quite -- there were many people who know a great deal about this who were very supportive of focusing on afghanistan and the difficulty of dealing with afghanistan because the landscape is so different from iraq, yet the problems are very important. yet we also have known all along that al qaeda has reconstituted in pakistan and in other places. >> bing west, who's been on this

program before, has just returned again from afghanistan for atlantic.com and other areas, but with footage of fire fights and a theory that goes to what you just spoke to. the idea of a kinetic approach to this war is great in theory. but you have to -- and he puts it rather brutally in a piece that appeared in, i think, national review a couple of weeks ago. you have to at some level have boots on the ground. and enough boots on the ground to kill people. >> the only way counterinsurgency works is if it becomes population centric, not enemy centric. we have to show the population you're willing to protect them, and only then will they cooperate with us. hands off or fighting from a distance will not protect them. >> and what happens is you start kidding yourself into believing you can drop bombs from drones. >> hours away, based hours away. >> based hours away, and that that somehow clears. no. what that does is it clears a lot more citizens. >> and you turn the population

against you. >> the turn them against you, and suddenly both they and the taliban are looking up, hating the drones, hating america. >> right. coming up, msnbc political analyst harold ford jr. also, chuck todd live from the white house. congressman mike pence of indiana, what he expects to see on healthcare when congress returns next week. up next, schools are back in session, and they're reporting more cases of swine flu. the latest from tom costello when we return. plus the controversy over the release of the lockerbie bomber. a live report from libya when we come back. you're watching "morning joe." i'm racing cross country in this small sidecar, but i've still got room for the internet. with my new netbook from at&t.

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welcome back to "morning joe." 18 minutes past the hour.

sun coming up over new york. who's in my ear? >> sun's coming up over new york. what are you talking about? >> he's mean. who's on camera? >> did you just pull it out of your ear? >> out of ear, out of mind. >> it's the voices in my head. i'm sorry. >> did somebody say something to you? >> it's not p.j. >> we didn't hear the voice. >> you didn't? >> nobody heard anything but you. >> moving on now. english and scottish officials are pointing to newly released documents that insist economic incentives played no role in freeing the lockerbie bomber. >> none at all. nothing to see here. move along. >> nbc's tom aspal is live. >> reporter: libyans have started celebrating moammar gadhafi's 40 years in power, but news from london those government documents reveal the british were most anxious that abdul bassett al megrahi did not

die in a scottish prison. given the idea he was dying of terminal cancer, there was some rush that they not inform the united states they were going to release him from prison and also they felt no obligation to keep him in prison forever. i think that's probably what the libyans are concentrating on now. there also has been a denial from a senior government minister here that there was any kind of deal made with britain to release al megrahi in return for oil concessions. the libbians, as it turns out, accord to go british documents, were most anxious he be released from prison before he died. mika? >> and the celebrations when he came home. how much do we know about how planned this was on the libyan end? because there must have been -- it seems to me this couldn't have been a spontaneous situation. there must have been some preplanning here. i don't understand how there wasn't a deal in the works. i question it. i'm incredibly skeptical. >> of course, the libyans have access to satellite television.

they were aware that al megrahi was on his way from the prison to an airport in glasgow and a libyan jet was prepared to take him home. according to libya, it was a spontaneous demonstration. they were members of megrahi's immediate family and members of his tribe. that covers several hundred at the airport. they do insist it was not official. nevertheless, last night during celebrations to mark gadhafi's 40 years in power, they did show that homecoming at trippley airport on a giant video screen to crowds here in the square behind me, and everybody applauded at that because everybody in the country knows that he's free and now in a hospital suffering from cancer. mika? >> nbc's thomas pom aspel in li. now yesterday a discussion of swine flu, and the president urged calm in the wake of another potential outbreak. >> i don't want anybody to be alarmed, but i do want everybody to be prepared.

we know we usually get a second larger wave of these flu viruses in the fall, so response plans have been put in place across all levels of government. >> administration officials estimate this flu could infect up to 50% of the population and cause up to 90,000 deaths. >> wow. >> okay. >> so in our household, we're very worried. two little ones. >> i'm a little nervous with the kids. i went and asked about swine flu vaccines. they're not available. >> end of october. >> let's take a look at this report from nbc's tom costello, who joins us now live with this story. tom, what's the situation? why aren't these vaccines available? >> reporter: they haven't been deemed safe yet is the first reason. the second reason is they haven't ramped up production enough yet. so we are looking at october or november. we know the government has already bought 195 million doses, 45 million of that will, they think, go out towards the end of october. this is going to go to state health departments, by the way. if you consider the fact they

think about 1 million people have already gotten sick in the united states from h1n1. they think about 500 people have died thus far. the mortality rate thus far would not support that thesis that we're going to have that many people dying as a whole in the united states. clearly they're worried this thing is going to get more serious, become a stronger, more deadly virus as it moves through the population. there's a lot of evidence, by the way, that as all the kids are now headed back to school, both the middle and high school and elementary schools, but also colleges, that it is coming back. wake forest university already has 100 suspected cases. university of colorado, university of kansas, washington state, all of them reporting hundreds of suspected cases, and they've only been in school for a few days or a week or so. so there is this evidence it's coming back. for the most part, the schools are telling the kids, stay home or stay in your dorm room. please don't even bother coming to the student health clinic. just let the thing run its course.

there's not much we can do for you other than prescribe the anti-viral should we decide that that's necessary. >> oh, my gosh. dan senor's mouth dropped. these numbers are pretty scary. >> i've got two kids under 2. and they say young kids are the ones you have to worry most about. tom, with the vaccine, is there any concern about the mercury in them? because this is something we've been told that the mercury is a problem for the little ones. >> reporter: i have not heard that specific discussion yet. keep in mind, the vaccine isn't even available yet. my kids were just at the doctor last week for their checkup before they go to school, and the doctor already gave them the regular flu shot. she said, we'd rather get this out of the way right now because come october, november, we want them to get the swine flu shot. by the way, swine flu, and we'll repeat this, is a misnomer. it's the h1n1 virus. it has nothing to do with swine, but it's become the vernacular is the swine flu. if you hear us use that

interchangeably, that's why. >> how does this play out, joe, in the healthcare debate? 1.8 million potential hospital visits. the vaccine yet to be approved because it's not safe by the federal government, and yet we want a government option in healthcare. how does this play out? >> that's a great question. you heard the president just say that we know that the second time these things come about, they're even worse than the first time. that means that our government has known for quite some time, and they're sitting here saying that we don't have vaccines to give our kids right now. so when they go back to school, they're safe. so, yes, is this the efficiency that people say we get from the federal government? >> tom costello, thank you. chuck todd next. show and tell

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you know, ted kennedy has said this was a great dispute. >> that's a classy broad. >> it was -- yeah. half whatever cheers, and they were boos. boy, what type of person. seriously, what type of person does that? i really -- i would like to know what type of person would boo a man who passed away. because i just, i don't know. >> we just saw them. >> does anybody do -- who does that?

>> i don't know. >> i cannot imagine somebody being so hateful and politics meaning so much to them, that they'd do that. >> all right. let's go now to -- >> not chuck todd. seriously. >> i do not want to do that seg segue. >> i remember it from ronald reagan. >> all negative karma. >> doing that segue is like an infusion of negative karma on the "morning joe" set. joe is all tick off. it's all downhill. >> i remember after gerald ford passed away, chuck todd told one gerald ford joke after another. it was the most highly inappropriate thing i'd ever seen. >> you did not say that. poor chuck. >> he would say we're looking at a president who wowed the nation. and then he'd bang his head and laugh and do the whole chevy chase thing. >> nbc news political director chuck todd. all of which what joe said is not true. >> i think the problem was we had chevy chase doing our

coverage. not helpful. >> anything to get ratings. >> what are you going to do? so let's set the scene at home you've been talking about this morning. >> chuck, take a look at these numbers. looks like a majority of independents are disapproving of the way the president is doing things. i would take it it has a lot to do with the healthcare debate. how at this point is the president going to get out the message? i know he has plans to do that, but it seems extremely muddled and seems like he's losing the very people you would think would stay with him. >> not just stay on the message, but they need to get control of the situation in congress. there's too many bills sitting out there, too many targets, frankly, for opponents to be able to say, hey, the bill does this, and they pick it off something that henry waxman still does. and the bill does that. and they grab something from the chris dodd version of the bill. and it might do this, and they

grab the charlie rangel version of the bill. they know they need to coordinate that. get baucus' bill out of those committee negotiations, get something out so they can start making a bill on the floor of the senate, if that's what's necessary. but have him speak about this. you start looking at the timing. you know, september is chockful of stuff coming due for the president, whether it's on afghanistan. remember, there was a threat made to iran at the last meeting of the g-8, where if there wasn't any progress made, there would be talk of some sanctions. that's september. it's now september. so that's going to be coming up and having to be dealt with. they have to host the g-20. you have the u.n. general assembly that's going to open. that's going to bring together a whole bunch of other issues. to get control of the healthcare debate, he's got to start next week. when you look at his calendar and his to-do list, if he doesn't get control of it next

week, then it's hard to see when he can do it later in the month. obviously, they can't let this keep dragging on and have this thing dive by 1,000 cuts. >> hey, chuck, it's dan. on afghanistan, the -- you're seeing a brewing civil war on the right. george wilkes' column, the national review. i'm waiting for a member of congress to take that on and lead a revolt on afghanistan. is the administration watching this? do they think they have a right wing problem rather than a problem with their own base on this issue? are they sort of watching the right sort this out and they'll see where that goes? or do they also think, geez, we've got a left problem, and now we've got a right problem. by the way, the basis of public support for afghanistan to what is left is on the right. >> i think for now they've always been a little more concerned about the left on this because of what you just pointed out. when you look at the numbers and you look inside the numbers on afghanistan, you know, is it

worth it? can we win? all this stuff. it is sort of a center right coalition of support when it comes on that issue. so obviously, they wouldn't want to see that crumble away. i think that, you know, when you look at what happened yesterday, george wilkes was sort of alone on this. there were a lot of conservative voices who just threw him under the bus and said this is what he's calling for, he's a little bit misinformed, he doesn't have his facts straight and all this. i don't know if george will has the kind of influence, frankly, that he once did. 20 years ago, he was one of maybe three or four major conservative voices in the mainstream media. that's not the case anymore. there are a lot more conservative voices. i don't know if that's going to start undermining. when you look at the leadership on capitol hill on this among republicans, they are all supportive. the rnc did something yesterday they rarely do. they put out a press release supporting the president's policies on afghanistan.

bipartisanship. >> then back to the healthcare debate, you wonder if he can salvage his message on many levels, especially with healthcare. >> chuck brought up a great point. people drag out what they want from dodd's bill, from rangel's bill. again, you give people a chance to assume the worst, they will assume the worst. it goes back to what i said last segment. they've got to narrow their focus. and sell something smaller but go after it aggressively. it is a muddled message. >> chuck, we'll be reading your updates on first read. thank you very much, chuck, at the white house. >> all this pro gerald ford stuff, joe. thanks a lot. >> coming up next, the outrage over lockerbie. new insight from "the new york times'" john burns and "vanity fair" correspondent vicky ward. (announcer) time brings new wisdom

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the british prime minister

has got to be straight with the british people. for weeks he's been refusing to say publicly what was going to happen to megrahi, and yet we now know the message was being given to the libyans that he should be released. i don't think we can now trust the government to get to the bottom of this. i think it's time for an independent inquiry led by a former secretary or former judge to find out what more papers need to be released so we can see what the british government was doing in our name. >> that is prime minister-elect david cameron. >> you're ahead of yourself. >> he's prime minister-elect. >> right now he's the leader of the british conservative party. soon enough, he's going to be the leader of all of britain. prime minister gordon brown double dealing on the release of the lockerbie bomber. yesterday british and scottish documents released hoping to undermine criticism. contributing editor of "vanity fair" vicky ward has been following the story for us.

and in london, "the new york times" bureau chief john burns. a real mess for the sitting prime minister. john, what do these latest documents reveal? >> well, i should tell you that within the last 15 minutes prime minister brown, gordon brown, has made his first extensive effort to address this issue in public. in a speech here in london. i have to say at first glance i don't think he went very much further to try and resolve the central issue, which is whether or not the british government has been speaking with a forked tongue on this issue to the l libyan, on the one hand, to the united states and to the british public on the other. as for the documents, it's a thick file, and it doesn't settle thing, to tell you the truth. it gives some hints, some hints that the british government were in some ways encouraging the libyans to believe that megrahi would be freed. but otherwise mostly the

documents track over the ground we've already covered in the past two weeks since megrahi was released. >> john, this couldn't come at a worse time for already embattled british prime minister, could it? >> no. he's really struggling on many front. he has an election next may. the polls show his labor party 20 points, 15 to 20 points behind the opposition conservatives. that kind of a lead is translated into votes at the election would lead to a la landslide for the conservatives. so he's in political trouble, and this is definitely not helping. >> "vanity fair's" vicky ward. you've been following this story. >> yes. >> i'm just having a hard time believing there was no link, no deal, no something going on behind the scenes here, that this just happened. how is that possible? >> of course it didn't happen. i think the other point that needs to be mentioned is there was a bp oil deal for many, many

billions of dollars that got halted. that's being reported. what i think has come out is that the britain -- at that point, it made the british change their minds and let the scotts know that they wouldn't mind if megrahi was released, whether it was through a prisoner transfer agreement or however they wanted to do it. the scots didn't do a prisoner transfer agreement, i believe, because they knew the americans would be outrage. so they used the scottish legal system and used compassionate release. as far as i'm aware, barely giving america warning that they were going to do this. i mean, they knew that the americans would be furious. they'd heard that from henry paulson, the fbi director, attorney general holder. what i'm told is they rang the

embassy ten minutes before kenny mcaskill gave his speech on the 20th and said we're going to release megrahi. >> rang which embassy? >> they rang the united states embassy in london. >> how bad is that, if it's true, that the united states has such -- >> i find it hard to believe. i'm not doubting the report, but it's hard to believe our staunchest ally would only give us ten minutes' notice. if that's the case, there's much bigger problems in our relationship with great britain. >> i think that's why the fbi director wrote that extraordinary, unprecedented letter which he did write, saying he had never seen such a perversion of justice. >> john, does it look like from your van tage point, following this story closely in london, that actually the prime minister was shocked by gadhafi's warm homecoming and that, in fact, there had been a deal that he would be returned quietly, there wouldn't be big adoring crowds.

but the second that this happened, this made a bad situation much worse? >> well, they were certainly hoping for a quiet homecoming. of course, the libyans have said it wasn't officially organized, it was just members of his tribe, members of his tribe who were well enough organized to get scottish flags, the blue and white flags, to wave at the aircraft as it taxis into tripoli airport. gordon brown said in his speech, "there was no controversy, no cover-up, no double dealing, no deal on oil." i think we have to go beyond that and look at this as a series of kind of nods and winks. the british government's bottom line here is they didn't make the decision, the scottish government made the decision, but the fact it it's the british government is responsible for foreign affairs. it's the british government more than any other institution that has to care about relations with the united states. and it looks as though the british government tried to achieve two things. it tried to please libya by

easing the way for megrahi's release, and on the other hand, it hoped to be able to smooth this over with the united states by, if you will, getting gadhafi's agreement to having a quiet homecoming. the whole thing has blown up in their faces. >> john, it just didn't seem believable, does it, that with most british citizens that the scottish government would make this decision on their own when wasn't it totally blair who allowed the scottish parliament to open up over the past decade? >> well, it was tony blair, after 2003 with american encouragement, who sort of masterminded, quarterbacked libra's, if you will, reemergence as a cooperative and friendly state. libya abandoned its nuclear weapons. libya began to cooperate on terrorism, particularly on al qaeda in north africa. and, of course, libya began to dangle these huge oil deals in

front of britain and the united states. i think perhaps the kindest thing that can be said about this is that the cooperation on terrorism has been very important. i've been told that by british intelligence officials. and that mr. brown cannot stand up in public and fight that, obviously. they can't discuss intelligence issues in public. but there's no doubt that the british government at various stages, by negotiating a prisoner transfer agreement, which was obviously all about megrahi from the beginning, by telling the libyans, as we now know from yesterday's documents, that brown and his foreign minister david miliband did not want megrahi dying in prison. all the signals they sent to the scottish government was, if you were to release him, it's okay with us. >> "new york times" john burns, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. vicky, let me ask you. do you agree with our assessment that david cameron will be prime minister? >> of course.

>> that's a fate acomply. >> i'm still working my sources. they did it for national security reasons. we heard that before. it's a terrible sign. we should not be endorsing terrorism. >> we'll get more of this on the radio, vicky. thank you very much. up next, how does a congressman who writes tax laws forget to pay his own taxes? >> it happens. >> the investigation into charlie rangel next on "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. pollen. when i really liked to be outside, i did not like suffering

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they are lingering questions surrounding the personal financing of democratic representingive, charlie rangel, for failing to report hundreds of thousands of dollars of of course. >> and lisa meyers has more on this story. good morning. what can you tell us? >> chairman charlie rangel has been under investigation. how could he forget to disclose a checking account worth a quarter of a million dollars? chairman of the powerful house weighs and means committee, writes complicated tax laws. so it raised a lot of eye brow when he resized six years of

financial disclosure statements, and an investment account, a quarter of a million, and pepsi costock, and income from the brown stone. since wrangell's congressional sl reis 174,000. so what is he hiding from us or the irs? >> reporter: he has said any errors were inat verdictant

>> by disclosing it he is able to say he had no intent to hide it from public view. >> the committee is looking into a long list of allegations, including wrangell's failure to report taxes on the villa in the dominican republic. initially the 38 year veteran of congress defended himself. >> i personally feel i have done nothing morally wrong. >> reporter: but wrangell has declined to answer any questions, and critics say at a minimum rangcharlie rangel shou step aside. democratic sources say speaker

pelosi and the leadership agreed not to make any decisions until the investigation is over. a big factor working in his favor is pete stark, who is an old line liberal without a lot of friends in either party. >> lisa, i think pete stark, well he is kind of like mark stanford's lieutenant government. >> yeah, and it looks like charlie rangel has too many friends. >> mike: well, let me ask you, lisa, don't the democrats on the hill feel so much pressure to get this story behind them with health care and everything else going on? >> they do. at one point they hoped to wrap up the investigation by next year. but rangle's finances are such a

mess. there is an effort to be thorough, and rangle has cooperated. >> lisa meyers, thank you very much. good to have you on the show this morning. >> my pleasure. >> stay tuned. i have to ask you about this charlie rangel thing. this is a pattern. >> when you make $160,000, and you don't report almost a million dollars? i'm here on this tiny little plane, and guess what... i've still got room for the internet. with my new netbook from at&t. with its built-in 3g network, it's fast and small, so it goes places other laptops can't.

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welcome to "morning joe." let's take a ride. >> the towers are green at lax. the towers are green and we don't know why. and this is a director's choice of the day. omaha, nebraska. you are looking good, omaha. let's go back east. the white house in washington, d.c. and then up to mike barnicle's town, boston, massachusetts. and then bring it home. new york city. that's the jersey cam. >> there is outerspace. >> we have harold ford jr. here.

the legend. >> good morning. we were just talking about charlie rangel. i don't know about you, but when i was in congress, i did not have a whole lot of money. i am just curious. i could not go on vacation to the caribbean. charlie buys places in the caribbean. do you do that? did you buy places in the caribbean? >> and then forget to report a million? >> no, i did not do that. >> you did not, like, buy things in the caribbean and rent them out. >> i owned a home in my district, and then i rented a place in washington. >> that makes sense. >> you didn't have four

apartments in manhattan. >> no. >> how about a brownstone in brooklyn? >> i did not have one of those. >> what is bank accounts -- >> all right, joe, i think we made our points. >> i did not have one of those either. >> what about a sweet deal with the apollo? >> i did not have one of those either. >> you got it down. he has testified before. don't give them nothing! >> i live in my office in washington, d.c. i had my house in florida. >> are we done? >> yes. >> good. good. that's a back way to cover it.

>> how do you live like that? willie has been asking. i don't know how you live like that legally. >> i don't think it's our business, how he lives as long as he follows the law. and that's the question now. did he have issues with following the law. >> that's the questions that we are raising by asking harold. >> it would be curious in light of the congressman who may have been investments and he has done nothing wrong. he is married and has family members, and i don't know, but i did not own any of those things, i want to be here. it's time to look at the top stories. firefighters are making progress with a massive wildfire burning

in los angeles it destroyed at least 62 homes. the fire is now more than 20% contained, but the officials say the fight is still far from over. we have the latest on this. migu miguel? >> reporter: it's going to be a busy day for firefighters on the line. yesterday the fire was 5% contained. this morning, as you mentioned, 20%. they hope to do more containment this afternoon and build a bigger ring around the fire. the fire scorched many acres, and there are 4,000 firefighters fighting the blaze on the ground and in the air. much of the attack must come from the air, because it's continuing to burn in such remote areas. although this morning it still threatens 10,000 homes.

we expect more light to be shed on the community as the sun comes up. and surveyors will come out and count the number of homes that have been damaged or destroyed. a long day for firefighters today. the air quality is low and the temperatures are high. it will be a trying day as crews try to build the ring of containment around the blaze. >> miguel, thank you very much for that report. secretary of state clinton ordering an investigation into private guards at the u.s. embassy in kabul after a report revealed report deviant behavior, and according to photos. we have seen the photos. >> look up a couple witches, why don't you. >> these shall pi-- these are

pictures taken by willie in las vegas. >> guards engaged in brawls and drunken behavior, allegedly bringing in prostitutes for birthday parties. guys! guys! >> i know. i am going to tell you right now, this is serious stuff. that never naps a war zone. >> joe! >> i am shocked and stunned. this never happens in a war zone. if we happened during this way in world war ii -- wait, i am sorry. >> just because there are cases of deviant behavior in the past, i will tell you this does not make this okay. this is kind of serious. >> it is very serious. and i think that these guys -- we should force them to go to sunday school seven days a week. i do, when they are in a war

zone. i am offended by this. that's awful. >> they should be brought home and sentenced to go to a whole foods market with you this weekend. >> they should pick up a soda can. >> that was joe. >> that was joe over the weekend with his cucumber peel. >> joe, let me tell you, i don't remember a lot about afghanistan. it's a blur. >> i warn you at some point this will become a serious story. you all might want to get your act together. >> i am saying i never seen or heard of this type of behavior in a war zone in all of my life. >> this is your argument with everything that happens. because it has happened in our

history, therefore it's okay. no, actually we want to develop as a country. we want to get better as a society. we don't want to torture people and we don't want to be -- >> we don't want them drinking beer and doing the elephant walk. wow, mike barnicle, this has never happened. >> what does that have to do with whether or not that's okay. >> this is such a shock. what i am suggesting is we live in a 24/7 news culture now. if we shined the light on the good war, and on world war i, and a lot of different wars, we would have come home and got the suit cases out. war is hell. >> what are they doing? it's an escape valve. they are having fun. they are all americans. >> right. bringing in prostitutes.

okay. >> i did not do that either when i was in congress. >> he's an open book. seriously, this is what i have been talking about for sometime. those of us that actually know people that have been in war zones, and understand what happens in war zones, understand that a lot of things -- accepted modes of behavior, it breaks down, and tomorrow could be the day you walk out and get a bullet in your brain. you fly back home in a coffin. i don't know what that does to a human being. i have no idea. because i, like you, live in the

comfort of a world in manhattan, where the greatest danger we have is, you know, walking across the street hoping on the way of going to a great restaurant we don't get hit by a cab. i am just a little less willing to judge what these people do. yeah, does it look deplorable? yes, it does. do i think it's a good example? no. do i wish their command structure would not have allowed this breakdown in discipline? sure i do. but i will not sit here and say i am shocked and stunned that these guys are a blowing off steam. >> well, if you get this report and these pictures, you are not going to call this deplorable? >> sure. >> yeah, and these are private

contractors, not members of the american military. but, look, fine, the pictures are deplorable, and everybody understands that. it's not that big of leap between deploering these pictures and this kind of conduct, and then saying, by the way, let's reinstitute the smoking ban. let's get real here. my god, these things will happen. >> and you are the secretary of state and you are going to say that? >> no, these are private contractors, and not members of the american military conducting themselves like this. >> you are secretary of state and you make the statement that hillary clinton made, and then you get on the phone and you call who ever is in charge, and then you say can you do me a

favor, don't embarrass me like this, and then maybe you fire the guy at the top. but do you say this is the worse thing -- no >> it's not the worse thing that happened during wartime, but i don't think that it's a joke. sorry, guys. it's not a joke. sorry. i'm sorry. >> you don't have to apologize. you have not seen the other pictures that are far more serious. >> yeah, the drinking the vodka -- oh, it's gross. >> yeah, it's gross and sad. it's a situation that we have to think of in terms of the big picture, and how long we want to be here. >> here is the lesson. here is the lesson. this is a buchanan lesson. first of all, don't record your conversations of the oval office, but if you do record the conversations in the oval office, burn the tapes. secondly, don't take pictures.

if you are having a party in baghdad, don't take pictures. seriously. what do they think, they are putting it up on facebook. here is another thing, kids, don't put your pictures up on facebook. it will catch up with you. >> i did not do that either. facebook was not prominent when i was there. otherwise, willie and i would have been in there. new polling showing the white house appears to be shedding support among the middle ground. 53% of independent voters say they disapprove of the way the president is handling the job. it's the first time the poll shows a majority of independents unsatisfied with the president's performance. that's interesting, harold, don't you think, at this point

losing independents? >> yeah, there has to be concerned. you don't overreact to polling, but for the president to ignore it would not be smart. they have to sit back and re-evaluate. >> this is problematic. >> this is the group he wants. >> barack obama, he was a transformtive political figure. how does he get them back, harold? >> well, i don't think things are as good as people say they are going, and not quite as bad. >> exactly. >> two. they have to sit back and figure out what is achievable in congress, and pay back some of the ambitions of the health care package and pass what is possible. ted kennedy, as liberal as some say he may have been, was

productable. >> call in the senators -- listen, forget the republicans. just forget them and the same thing with our friend from iowa, grassley, and jon kyl, and i am just talking strategy, forget the republicans. but can't this president, he seems like such a likeable guy, move democrats in the middle? >> he will have to. if you watch the town hall meetings, these people are claiming they are guest the obama plan. there is no obama plan. we don't know what is it. he has to identify and outline a plan too. the expanding coverage of the

uninsured will have to come when the economy gets back on track. insurance coverage ought to be the cornerstone and pillars of a health care plan. i think he can get that passed. >> they won't touch the malpractice -- >> there is a handful of democrats that have been changing. you have to look at what you can pass. >> maybe you might get some republicans. >> we are at a different point now. why don't you call your friend, the president, and then stop the fight before the end of the fight, and show two exhausted fighters. only one will win.

we need portability, and preexisting condition and tort reform, and let's get it done. >> insurance reform, tort reform. >> okay. >> and take pictures if you will, and get it back to us. >> i'll put it on facebook. >> mika, you just don't understand, sometimes things just break down the moral guide post -- >> right. okay. shut up now. coming up, a check on business before the bell with marks haines. and then we have a story about the battle of the budge landed him the moest influentia job. instead of $5 per person for fast food,

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welcome back. >> with us, the chairman of the white house of the house republican conference. congressman pence is leading an energy summit in ohio to discuss solutions to america's energy

challenges. first let's talk health care reform. do you think health care reform is dead? >> do i think health care reform is dead, joe? >> yes. >> well, i -- well, i hope not. i really believe that we ought to take some bipartisan action to lower the cost of health insurance, and to lower the cost of health care. but i hope that the plan -- the democrats' initiative to introduce a public option that would result in a government takeover paid for by higher taxes dead. judging from the town hall meetings that i have had in indiana and what we have seen around the country, i think there are millions of americans that don't want to see a public option or government takeover. >> what is the republican plan you would like to see passed? >> well, it's not very different than what harold ford just described. i give a shout-out to my old

friend harold ford. he made mention of preexisting conditions and lowering the cost of health insurance and malpractice reform. republicans believe what we ought to do is allow americans to purchase health insurance, the way all federal employees can, and that's to buy insurance across state lines. it can allow new insurance products to be created in a new competitive marketplace. in allowing for nationwide health insurance products to be created, and allowing people to be choosey shoppers in a truly competitive market, and that plus responsible malpractice reform, and you are a far way down the road to curing what ales health insurance and health care in the country. >> we have been talking about

these pictures out of the afghan embassy. i don't know if you have seen that. we have been debating it. what is your take, that we are now debating whether or not to ramp up in afghanistan, and whether or not afghanistan can become the next vietnam. what is your take knowing, of course, these are private contractors? >> i have been to afghanistan price. i am fairly certain that i have been to that embassy. i support the call by the secretary of state and for our military leaders for a full investigation. we have america's finest in harm's way in afghanistan. it's important that american shoulders and american contractors conduct themselves in a way that reflects american values. i am troubled by what i have seen of the photographers. i think an investigation is altogether appropriate. >> good to see you this morning.

thanks for the kind words. >> you are saying republicans in the house could support an insurance reform bill, and malpractice reform, and it could even support expanding coverage for children at the poverty level and above the poverty level, is that something you think could win republican support? >> well, i miss you in congress, harold. i love the way you added to the list there. i think that we can talk about, throwing in information technology. we can talk about those things, as long as we are talking about lowering the cost of health insurance by bringing real competition within the private health insurance economy itself. i think that what we have to see the administration walk away from, and frankly we have to see

democrats in congress walk away from the insistence, the demand on the creation of a public option that most of the people in my district, and i'll bet most people back in tennessee, harold, that if they don't have the option they will lose their insurance, because they will say we will pay the 8% payroll tax and tell you to go down the street and tell you to sign up for the government exchange. as long as we can walk away from the public option, we could have a reasonable debate about all of these other issues. and, again, i think that we should do something to lower the cost of health insurance for working families and small businesses. >> mike barnicle? >> what if anything that is in the bill in front of the house right now, what do you like in

it? what do you favor in it? >> what do i favor in the bill? well, mike, it's hard to look past the massive government plan, you know, the so-called exchanges with the public option. but even the private insurance elements in the exchanges are essentially government controlled and government dictated. what you have got in the vision that democrats reports out of the energy and commerce committee is a massive expansion of the federal government's role that i believe, as barney frank suggested, would put us on the path to socialized medicine. barney frank said if you have the public option, i think he said that's the fastest way to get to single payer. i agree. so it's hard to look past that elephant in the room and find much there that we agree with. >> congressman, with all due respect, it sounds like somebody

who needs a automobile. i see the one in front of me but i don't like the color. there is nothing else, once you get over that hurdle, in this bill that you like that you think would benefit us? >> well, it depends on what is the paint and what is the car, mike? it's not a matter of objecting to the color if you object to the introduction of a new government insurance plan. i think the reality is that that's behaemith. you put that on the table. i believe that a public option in health insurance would send us in the direction of a government takeover of health care. it's not what the american people want. the people here in ohio or indiana want. >> charlie rangel, should he be kicked out of chairmanship? >> joe, an investigation under way. you know the standard is to be

above the appearance of inpropriety. we need to look at the new allegations that have been raised. but i would afford him due process of law. >> congressman, thank you very much. >> let me just say, he and congressional leaders are to host the energy summit in ohio. >> we'll be right back. [ woman ] dear cat. gentle cat. your hair mixes with pollen and dust in the air. i get congested. my eyes itch. i have to banish you to the garden. but now with zyrtec-d®, i have the proven allergy relief of zyrtec®, plus a powerful decongestant. i can breathe freer with zyrtec-d®. so, i'll race you to our favorite chair. i might even let you win. zyrtec-d® lets me breathe easier,

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welcome back to "morning

joe." it's just after 8:30 on the east coast. we are going to be looking at the top stories. my twitter is going wild, mike, on this contractor story. when chris decides to tell me what we are doing -- i am going to read this. i spent 20 years in the u.s. navy. job tension may explain bad behavior, but it doesn't excuse it at all. accountability matters. i am not trying to be on my high horse about this, but we can't say, oh, it's nothing. >> nobody is saying accountability doesn't matter. at least i am not saying that, nor is joe. you have to be held accountable. but let's not get carried away with this. >> i understand things happen. i also understand -- i am getting twiters saying i don't know what it is like. of course i don't. we want to evolve. we can't say it's okay.

speaking of saying it's okay, let's get the business report from mr. sunshine himself. mark haines joins us now. >> good morning, madam warmth. is that my coffee i just knocked over? did i hear you say you spent six years in the navy? no? okay. i guess not. i was going to say, that would not have surprised me. anyway, jobs, jobs are in the news here. u.s. employers, and this is according to adt, u.s. employers cut 298,000 jobs in august, and that is much worse than expected. it's less than the month before, which was 360,000. but it's worse than the 250,000 that we were expecting.

so the jobs market remains very bad. there is no other way to put it. the rate of decline is slowing down, but it's still going down. the futures reacted negatively to that number, as might be expected, and we are now looking at -- we are indicating a decline of maybe a quarter of 1%. not too bad. and we lost ground yesterday, didn't we? and there is one other headlines story i want to tell you, and then i will go back to dreaming about mika in the navy. productivity rose at its fastest pace in nearly six years last month, while labor costs plunged -- that's last quarter, beg your pardon, and that's as normal as you are coming out of a recession. employers hold back on hiring new people, and the old people work harder and productivity

goes up. >> all right. mark haines. >> all right guys, anchors away. . why not stock up now? get everything you need for fall allergy season at an unbeatable price. save money. live better. walmart. introducing listerine total care. everything you need... to strengthen teeth, help prevent cavities, and kill germs. introducing 6 in 1 listerine total care. the most complete mouthwash.

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welcome back to "morning joe." washington, a beautiful sight of washington. harry reid said some inappropriate things. >> i don't know the context. harry reid can sometimes be a blunt fellow and he can come across the wrong way. he and ted kennedy were extremely coast. i cannot imagine he would be stomping on the grave -- >> i don't think -- well,

republicans like rush limbaugh, they have been accusing republicans of that for a year. >> my twitter is going wild. people hate me. >> senator reid and senator kennedy were extremely close. i understand the meaning of what he said. >> let's move on to charlie rangel. does he survive the next month or so? >> he is a great guy. how you can have him head of the weighs and means committee in a time of economic crisis where he cannot figure out what is in his own checking account. i don't think that flies. >> harold ford, if you were

nancy pelosi, would you ask him to back out? >> i would say he has to answer the questions right away. >> if there is a problem, step down. >> you have to put it all before them and answer the questions. >> you can say let's have an investigation, and republicans would love nothing more for the republicans to stay in this position so they can run against him in 2010, right? >> no doubt. he has to get everything on the table. >> mika, you say you have been pounded by e-mails and twitter because of your position on the pictures. >> yeah, it involves prostitutes and lewd behavior, and i am not trying to be on my high horse. i don't think it's funny, though. we probably should look into it.

>> yeah, mike barnicle. stop laughing. >> rich says as a vietnam vet, mika needs to lighten up. >> mike, you have e-mails from friends -- >> yeah, similar. ask yourself this. would you want your son or daughter could be in those pictures? no. would you understand the context of those pictures, the theater of operation? yes. so let's deploer it and condemn the pictures -- >> that's not we were doing. >> i was put in the position where it looked like i was on my high horse because it seemed funny. we are talking about pretty bad stuff. >> we are talking about things that have been going on for centuries. >> that doesn't make it okay.

that's all i am saying. >> mika, some people are encouraging the advocacy of not letting combat soldiers being allowed to smoke in the theater of this place. >> i think that this is perhaps a topic that we continue on the radio. >> harold? >> i did not do that either. >> oh, good. >> harold ford jr. thank you so much for being with us. >> what a good boy. >> i love our next guest. the food critic coming up. >> he wrote a great article, a week in review about kids eating, and he wrote a new book that i relate to a little too well. it's called "born round." >> thanks for coming on the

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restaurant critic, frank bruni is putting down his fork. he is also the author of "born round," my life story of a full-time eater. we are all big fans of you around the table here. speaking of tables. you have had a life-long problem with eating. like me, when i go out in new york, if i get two burgers, i could throw up. >> yeah, if i did not get as much as i wanted to eat when i was little, i would get so upset that i would throw up. i have gone through all of the usual weight loss and weight gain struggles of anybody, and plus the unusual ones like what we just talked about. >> you got up to 275 pounds.

you were a size 42 wasist. how do you turn things around? >> portion control. look at the terminology we have. the big culp. the economy pack. the super-sized meals. they are all great. but if you want to keep loving food and keep from being undone by it, we have to manage portion size. >> and did you ever say this is it? >> i was in a doctors' office, and the doctor shouted out 268 at me. and i thought, i don't want to continue to live like this. >> how did that childhood lead to "the new york times" food critic? >> well, i had to turn it

around. my mother was a great, proud cook, as well as my grandmother. i was brought up with a love of food, but i could not manage it the right way. >> i think most americans have that problem. it's not helped by the size of amounts of food you are given. and it all looks so good. how do you, as a food critic, eat it restaurants now? how do you do it? it's extreme discipline, is it not? >> it is. just before i became a food critic, i lived in italy, and that sounds weird to say it taught me a lot. and they value quality and not quantity. >> i am sure there are a lot of people listening and thinking, that doesn't work for me. how do you actually make that click in your brain to not want to over eat, to only eat the right amount and the right food?

how do you make those choices and execute it? >> you will never not have the desire to over eat, but you have to remind yourself the price you pay when you over eat. the way you look, and the way you can retreat from the world when you are too overweight. you have to keep reminding yourself, when you fulfill that desire to over eat, you are paying the price. >> do you have a love-hate relationship with food? >> yeah, that's exactly it. it was a love-hate relationship for decades because i could not manage my intake and i hated what food would do to me. i was either on a ridiculous diet or fast or i was breaking it in some fashion. >> exercising. what did you do when you were at 268? >> i started by walking three or four miles. as soon as i could run a little

better i did. as soon as i could run more, i did. weight loss is sometimes easier than the maintenance of the weight loss, because it is its own exsil ration. >> i have two girls, and i have gotten a hold on what i eat, and it has been two decades of work. i want to transfer the right message to them. you characterized that balance that parents are trying to strike? >> yeah, you want your kids to know the pleasures of food, but you don't want them to be left with life-long struggles against weight. you can only model the right behavior before them. if you are active and eat in a healthy way, they are likely to do the same. >> you spent five years or more eating in restaurants and eating out, and do you think people can be defined by the kind of restaurant they go to, or can restaurants be defined by the

kind of people they attract. >> yeah, restaurants are defined by the kind of people they attract. and restaurants play to the level of the people they attract. when i watch the restaurant turn the corner and become less good, and it was often because it was a tourist trap. everybody plays to the level they are expected. >> help us out here. lightning round, frank bruni. best sushi in new york. >> mauza. >> what is the best dessert you have had in new york city? >> i had something called i think the temporary exotic something. >> best italian? >> i can't do that. that's too tough. >> smart answer. smart answer. >> best french restaurant? >> that would have to be either

per se -- >> well, the best value for your money. i don't think that i can do that one. >> what about atmosphere? where is a place that you like to go just to get away and relax, and eat and be in your element? >> well, i love the atmosphere at 11 madison park. that's one of the gorgeous places. >> what about best rib joint? >> i am a fan of daisy may's. >> when you come back, we will give you $75 for healthier glasses of wine. >> just stock the green room with more healthy food. >> i am going to take a run now to work off the bagels i just

ate in the green room. >> good luck with the book "born round." we are reading it at home right now, and i am hoping it will change my life. >> frank, thank you for coming in. up next, what if anything -- i think there is something -- did we learn today. we'll be right back. here is your business travel forecast. i am meet meet, bill karins.

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's time to talk about what we learned today. >> the food segment was enlightening. i am not a paid spokesman, but the southwestern egg rolls at chili chili's, seriously, the finest food i have ever tasted. >> at chili's? >> yes, i am serious. try it. >> and they are good for you,

too. >> i learned frank bruni, five years of a critic, afraid to give me an italian restaurant. >> exactly. >> afraid to give me an italian restaurant. >> what are you learned? >> i learned a lot from frank. we have a long way to go. his message is one people need to look for. get his book "born round." >> yeah, greats. p.j. clark's was not on the list. i was disappointed. if you want to meet me or talk to me, i am at p.j. clark's. i was born round, and i will die that way, too. and also our taught towards t.j.'s dad. our father fell yesterday. he has been with us -- our

director, he has been here for six or seven years. we love him and family, and our thoughts and prayers are with his dad. willie, if it's way too early, what time is it? >> "morning joe." we turn it over to contessa brewer and monica novotny. okay. crews say they are making progress in california, but little comeford for the thousands of families whose homes are in the path of the fire. we have live team coverage from the front line. the president putting final touches on a bold new push from reform. is it enough to get congress and the american people back on the side. >> they say a picture is worth 1,000 words. what are these pictures telling you? >> good to see you, i am contessa brewer.

>> and i am monica novotny. dylan ratigan is on vacation this week. and the fire is standing at 22% containment. they don't have the upper hand just yet. the station fire, 22% contained. good news. up from 5% less than 24 hours ago. flames destroyed at least 62 homes. officials listed mandatory evacuation orders from some areas. 6,000 people remain out of their homes. and tell me about the weather and how that will play a part today in the fire fight ahead? >> reporter: contessa, the weather was instrumental last night. basically the conditions you had here were perfect to get much more aggressive with the wildfire. the temperatures were lower than expected, and humidity was high, which was great for the firefighters. th