i'll do it. i promise. (announcer) if you have a stomach ulcer or other condition that causes bleeding, you should not use plavix. taking plavix alone or with some other medicines including aspirin may increase bleeding risk. tell your doctor before planning surgery or taking aspirin or other medicines with plavix, especially if you've had a stroke. some medicines that are used to treat heartburn or stomach ulcers, like prilosec, may affect how plavix works, so tell your doctor if you are taking other medicines. if fever, unexplained weakness or confusion develops, tell your doctor promptly. these may be signs of ttp, a rare, but potentially life-threatening condition, reported sometimes less than 2 weeks after starting plavix. other rare but serious side effects may occur. full-page ad in "the new york times" decrying the president's authorities and leadership in health care reform from hundreds of his campaign volunteers and donors. the senior most of the campaigners next on whether or

not they're all back in the fold tonight. are they mullified after what the president said? and in "worsts," something in another newspaper, the worst sports column ever. plus, six weeks after denying she is a birther, congresswoman schmidt reveals she's a birther. you're watching "countdown" on msnbc. (announcer) we understand. you need to save money. 90s slacker hip-hop. ♪ that can strain your relationships and hurt yourody 'cause we'pride ♪ng a ride ♪ ♪ it's the credit roller coaster ♪ ♪ and as you can see it kinda bites! ♪ ♪ so sing the lyrics with me: ♪ when your debt goes up your score goes down ♪ ♪ when you pay a little off it goes the other way 'round ♪ ♪ it's just the same for everybody, every boy and girl ♪ ♪ the credit roller coaster makes you wanna hurl ♪ ♪ so throw your hands in the air, and wave 'em around ♪ ♪ like a wanna-be frat boy trying to get down ♪ ♪ then bring 'em right back to where your laptop's at... ♪ ♪ log on to free credit report dot com - stat! ♪ vo: free credit score and report with enrollment in triple advantage. back playing in the afternoon.

excedrin back and body has two ingredients to block and relieve the pain. doesn't your whole body deserve excedrin strength relief? excedrin. what ache? score delivery pizza... hut! hut! ( thud ) ouch! minus the delivery price. ♪ for fresh delivery taste without the delivery price, it's digiorno. ♪ his winning campaign was run on grassroots support and groundwork. now those very supporters and groundworkers today challenged the man they helped get elected. progressives told barack obama health care reform without the

public option is not change we can believe in. our number two story on the "countdown," the president got an ultimate up, support the public option or we'll support somebody else in 2012. the question tonight, did he change their minds back? one of mr. obama's deputy campaign managers said he's losing patience with the white house joins me imminently. first, as an overture to the president's chief, the group progressive change campaign committee taking out this full-page ad, signed by 40,000 obama donors, 25,000 volunteers and 400 obama sponsors saying we have done something for you. now do something for the country. saying the president needs to do more than express support for the public option. he needs to fight hard for it. this on the heels of obama supporter protesting outside the white house, desiring bold leadership from the president. one former adviser telling politico that the president drops the ball on health care

reform, quote, i would have to work for somebody else who would support a public option in a primary in 2012. joining me as promised, former obama deputy campaign manager steve hildebrand. thank you for your time tonight, sir. >> absolutely, keith. >> did he do enough? >> absolutely. he -- i think tonight was a game-changer for this health care reform debate. and i do think he really hit this out of the ballpark. he explained in very clear terms what he stands for, what he believes, and the principles that he's going to fight for, continue to fight for in this health care reform debate, so, yeah, i'm very pleased, keith. >> did you have the sense going into this, as i did, that this was even larger than health care? this was about where the president's priorities, where his presidency would tilt, more towards citizens or more towards corporations and special interests, not that there seemingly was any doubt about that at any point up until the last three or four weeks, but that somehow, that question was back on the table? was it on the table?

has it been taken off the table tonight? >> well, i never had any doubt in my mind, keith, that this president is squarely on the side of the american people, and not, you know, in bed with the special interests, as too many politicians are. he is a very principled person. he believes in the need for health care roreform as deeply d as principled as anybody in this country. he has has to fight hard to make sure that it happens. he needs to invite the american people to take control of this debate. to make sure that he calls on politicians and folks in the media when they tell lies about his health care plan and all of us, you know, who believe in him, who believe in his plan for health care reform, keith, need to get really active. people need to call senator ben nelson in nebraska, senator max

baucus in maine. call olympia snowe and susan collins in maine -- i'm sorry, max baucus in montana. get on the phone and tell these folks we need health care reform that's principled, that stands by the very ideals that president obama laid out tonight in his speech. >> steve, when he said, i asked valerie jarrett the same question nearly an hour ago. you were integrally associated with this man. when the president said he will call people out who tell lies about health care reform, do we take him literally at that? are we going to see the president come up and shout back, but not shout back but answer back? >> well, he is a person who -- as i know him -- cares a lot about political discourse. one of the reasons he ran for the presidency was to try to change political discourse in washington. i don't think that he's going to be irresponsible in how he might call somebody out, but i do

think he is going to make very clear what the truth is and what the truth isn't. and for those people who are distorting his plan and his ideals, he should be very forceful in pushing back, just as he did tonight. >> i was going to say, is that what we should expect, something like a simple statement about the death panels, that's a lie? >> well, you know, i can't -- i don't know for sure exactly how they would implement this. i think, you know, they will make sure that, you know, the army out there knows the marching orders. and to make sure that all of us, not just the president, but all of us who are fighting for health care reform behind his principles are also, you know, standing up and making sure that the truth is told. >> steve hildebrand, former deputy campaign manager on the obama campaign and tonight closer to back to the fold, if

that phrase can be used in this equation. great thanks for joining us tonight. >> keith, i'm always in the fold with this president. >> here we go. >> thank you. >> thank you, sir. two days after its publication, it is already considered the worst sports column ever printed in an american newspaper. who wrote and who published, more importantly, an essay, while she spent 18 years of hell at the hands of a pedophile, kidnap and rape victim, would have missed in the world of sports, in the world of sports? "worst persons" next. [screeching] [dejectedly] oh. [screeching] [barks] (man) if you think about it, this is what makes the ladders different from other job-search sites. [screeching] we only work with the big talent. [all coughing] welcome to the ladders-- a premium job site for only $100k-plus jobs and only $100k-plus talent.

nnchs a moment, spacial edition of "the rachel maddow show." first we close with the happy reminder that the world keeps spinning despite some people. tonight, our "worst persons in the world." guess who the winner is? the bronze to congresswoman -- yes, she's still a

congresswoman -- jean schmidt of ohio, whose smearing of jack murtha of pennsylvania as a coward on the house floor was the high mark for the bush administration's controlled society. a tea party event monday in cincinnati. . >> he cannot be a president by our constituency. >> if it were not bad enough that schmidt is a mean-spirited, unhammy person who seems bent on spreading those emotions, she's also a complete hypocrite. in july, amid rumors she was a birther, she released a statement saying she believed the president was a natural born citizen of the united states. so she was either lying then or she was lying at that fool at that tea party. either way, she's a pandering, manipulative liar and should resign from the house of representatives. runne runners-up, sports editors of "the oc register." every columnist and commentator will write something so bad, so

inappropriate the editor will have to kill it. mr. bean and mr. haarmanson and mr. shale failed to do this. mark whiker went totally tone deaf. he wrote a sports column about jaycee dugard, who had been held in captivity in the backyard of a pedophile since 1991. c column begins that jaycee dugard hasn't gotten to see a sports page. she never saw a highlight. never got to the ballpark for beach towel night. probably hasn't high-fived in a while. she was not allow to spike a volleyball, pitch a softball or smack a ball down the line or run in a five-footer for double bogey. that's deprivation. no, deprivation is being held prisoner for 18 years, raped repeatedly and forced to bear the children of a psychopath. it is not, not knowing the angels won the www.msnbc.com during your ordeal. the rest of the column was just a lift of all of the less likely sports results since she was

kidnapped as an 11-year-old. somehow it got worse. remember where this woman was held in a family backyard and ball players who always invent the slang no matter what espn would have you believe, came up with an expression for a home run you might appreciate. congratulations, jaycee, you left the yard. mark whitker will take his lumps for this, and it might cost him his job, objectively so. it's impossible to bring back a column that's already been transmitted. in many ways the damage is done. i hope i can be forgiven for this lapse of professionalism. but you are the guys reading this, deciding whether or not it gets publish, and you say great. you're in over your head, gentlemen. our winner, speaking of that, congressman joe wilson of south carolina, not only interrupting the president of the united states during his joint address to congress and to the nation on this extraordinarily important subject, but interrupting the president of the united states to call him before the eyes of the world a liar. it is bad enough that mr. wilson was factually wrong, mr. obama

was not lying when he said health care reform will not pay to cover illegal immigrants. that's why section 246 of the bill is called, no federal payment for undocumented aliens! bad enough that mr. wilson lowered the level of discourse at a moment when the country hungers for a higher level of discourse, except that moron, karl rove, who laughed at this on fox and thought it was really funny that wilson said it. but it also turns out that mr. wilson is himself not telling the truth here. not merely about the immigrants but about, yes, the lie that mr. obama called out, death panels. an op-ed column he wrote on august 27th, wilson wrote that reimbursing doctors for counseling patients at the end of their lives, quote, has been correctly highlighted by former alaskan governor sarah palin as a program which could lead to seniors being encouraged to seek less care in order to protect the government's bottom line. no, sir, nothing in that bill leads american doctors to encourage seniors to seek less care, as even republicans have

affirmed end-of-life counseling leads to better care and patients who are less anxious, less scare and less confused. in other words, mr. wilson, you lie. congressman joe wilson of south carolina, today's "worst person in a world" in a landslide. that's "countdown," for this, the 2,223rd day since the previous president declared mission accomplished in iraq. i'm keith olbermann. good night and good luck. now to resume our analysis of the president's address to congress tonight, ladies and gentlemen, here is rachel maddow. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, keith. thank you very much for that and thank you at home for staying with us for the next hour. white house adviser david axelrod will be joining us in just a moment, as will senator barbara boxer. she will be joining us, as will congressman barney frank, as will chris hayes from "the nation." i'm here as you can see by the big building behind me, i'm here in washington on the occasion of the president's big health care speech. we are anticipating a very busy studio here. it's all coming up this hour. it is going to be a great show. we begin tonight with what has

become almost a ritual for u.s. presidents. a little over an hour ago, president obama addressed a joint session of congress and millions of americans watching across the country to speak the words that many presidents before him have spoken in one form or another. >> we did not come here just to clean up crises. we came here to build a future. so -- so tonight i return to speak to all of you about an issue that is central to that future, and that is the issue of health care. i am not the first president to take up this cause, but i am determined to be the last. >> the president also tonight delivered a message specifically to the left, a message that his preference for uninsured americans to have a publicly run insurance option should not be confused with a conviction that we really need that sort of thing.

>> it's worth noting that a strong majority of americans still favor a public insurance option of the sort i propose tonight. but its impact shouldn't be exaggerated by the left or the right or the media. it is only one part of my plan, and shouldn't be used as a handy excuse for the usual washington ideological battles. to my progressive friends, i would remind you that for decades the driving idea before reform has been to end insurance company abuses and make coverage available for those without it. the public option -- the public option is only a means to that end. and we should remain open to other ideas that accomplish our ultimate goal. >> back in 1948, it was president harry truman who pushed for a national health program from the same spot that was occupied by president obama tonight. in 1962 was john f. kennedy.

he took his case before a crowd of 20,000 people at madison square garden in new york city. president clinton convened a joint session of congress in 1993, eight months into his own presidency. the first year of his own presidency. it's a bully pulpit. it's available to u.s. presidents in a way that's not really available to anyone else in this country, the impassioned speech, the undivided attention of congress and the american people. all of these presidents who have used that bully pulpit for health care reform have one other thing in common -- none of them were successful in the end. not truman, not j.f.k., not clinton. only one president has taken on this cause and really won in the past 60 years. only one has had success, lyndon johnson, who signed medicare into law in 1965. and lyndon johnson's success, the last major progress we have had on health care in this country, it isn't remembered for

its soaring speeches. it's remembered for years of hard, legislative slogging, grabbing lapels, getting into the trenches, personally leaning on senators and recalcitrant house committee chairman until they squeaked. ultimately, one by one, wrangling the votes in congress that were needed. what we witnessed tonight is part of what it means to fight for health reform in this country. and right now is, as the president said, as close as we've been to getting something passed since lyndon johnson got medicare passed 40 years ago. as the president said, four of the five committees with jurisdictions here have passed something. the president's committed to reform. his party's got more than 70-seat majority in the house and 60 seats in the united states senate. we have not been in close to health care reform in decades. so the question tonight after this historic but not unprecedented speech is what happens next? president obama says he's determined to be the last president to have to take this on. he is determined to fix it

finally after decades of trying. does that mean he's willing to get into the trenches to con joel and to wrangle and personally man handle this through, not only with members of his own party but with an opposition willing to be neither truthful nor respectful when it serves them? >> there are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. this, too, is false. the reform -- the reform i am proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. not true. >> congressman joe wilson of south carolina there, republican congressman. they're ca there calling the president of the united states a liar, despite the provision of 246 in the proposed health care bill from the house which say specifically those living in the u.s. illegally are not covered and would not be covered by the affordability credits in the plan. but never let the truth get in the way of an opportunity for a good scream, right?

that's part of what president obama is facing. it's what he does next that will determine whether we get health reform in the next 40 days or whether we should settle in to wait another 40 years. taken at his word, this president does appear to be determined. >> the time for bickering is over. the time for games has passed. now is the season for action. now is when we must bring the best ideas of both parties together and show the american people that we can still do what we were sent here to do. now is the time to deliver on health care. >> joining us now from the u.s. capitol is white house senior adviser david axelrod. mr. axelrod, i know it's been a very busy night for you. thanks for taking time to join us. >> good to be here, rachel. thanks for having me. >> let me first ask you about something i would never have expected to be asking you about. unexpected moment in the speech tonight when the ap says it was

republican congressman joe wilson of south carolina who interrupted the president's speech to scream "you lie" at him. was that an unanticipated microcosm of the character of the health care debate so far? >> well, it was certainly unexpected moment, and, you know, i will let congressman wilson describe what he had in mind there. i had never seen it before in a presidential address. and it was unfortunate. but i think the president soldiered on. he was undeterred about that. and i think most people in the room got the fact of what he was saying is they have a mutual responsibility to deal with a very significant problem that is crushing families and businesses and government itself, than has to be dealt with. and at long last, we have the opportunity to do it and people ought to join in here and step up. i thought the ending of that speech was particularly moving in that regard.

apparently, didn't embuick congressman wilson with the spirit of cooperation but perhaps others were moved. >> the president moved on tonight from describing the need for health care reform, which is something he has spoken about quite a bit in the past, to specifically talking about what kind of health care reform he wants. and he defended the public health insurance option. but then he criticized who he described as his progressive friends for investing the public option with too much importance. as we look ahead to what happens next, does that sort of dual message on the public option tonight from the president tonight mean that he is going to fight for the public option to be in the bill, or does he see it as xpendz abexpendable? >> he believes in the public option, rachel, and he believes it should be in the bill and he will fight to put it in the bill because he wants competition and choice in markets where there are none. he feels competition and choice is the best answer to these huge leaps in prices, to the abuse of

patients and customers within the insurance system. he's going to fight for it. i think his point is this, though, if we can pass a bill that brings long awaited insurance reforms to people who need them, most of the people in the country have insurance. this would help them greatly. and help those who can't -- who don't have insurance that get it at a price they can afford, and also reduce the overall cost of the system, that would be a historic achievement. that is our goal. that is what we are pointing to. we ought not to make one individual element of that entire program so important that it dwarves this greater goal. >> i think part of the reason that progressives have viewed the idea of the public option with so much importance is because of the fear there has been a mandate without serious reform, that attempts to regulate the insurance industry won't be effective, and when the president moves from his position during the campaign, which is that he was against individual mandates, to being

fo for individual mandates now, i think there was concern that regulations of the insurance industry won't make insurance less junkie, less resented as it is now, and that we'll all be forced to buy something that actually isn't very good and that will just pad the insurance companies' pockets. is there sequencing there? is there a guarantee that the reforms work before individuals are forced to buy coverage? >> well, no individual is going to be forced to buy coverage. there's going to be -- in the sense there's going to be a hardship exemption, if they don't want to buy coverage. it's also a fact that when people don't buy coverage and then get sick or seriously injured, then it is the burden for the rest of us. so what he said is everybody has to have a responsibility. but our goal is to make sure that the insurance system works better for everybody, people who have it and people who don't have it and will have it. and we believe that these insurance reforms can and will work. i think there's a broad consensus that they can and will work, but, rachel, this whole system is going to be phased in

over a period of time, and obviously, if things are not working for consumers, then we're going to make adjustments. the whole goal here is to bring security and stability to people and they don't have it today. they can be dumped if they get sick. that happens all the time. if they have a pre-existing condition, they don't get insurance. that's standard policy of the insurance industry. out-of-pocket costs, the largest single cause of personal bankruptcy are health related issues. if you tap out-of-pocket costs, can you stop that. and there is an incentive for the insurance industry to go along and not try to fight these reforms, and that is that there's going to be a larger insurance market. then have to make that calculation but we're prepared to do it easy or do it hard. we want to make it work for consumers. >> earlier today, including on msnbc, you said that the public option should be expected to pass in some form, some form of the public option could survive in final legislation.

how many different forms does it come in? what exactly do you mean by that? and i ask because i think a lot of the president's supporters are trying to decide how strongly they're going to get behind what he's pushing for and whether it really does embody the real transformative change, the real challenge to the insurance companies that we hope we've been promised. >> well, i think there's a number of aspects of this that represent a direct challenge to the gemny of the insurance companies and those who reduce it to simply this issue i think did not listen to the president closely and aren't paying enough attention. we also share a goal, and the goal is to make this system work for the american people, not just the insurance companies. and that's what we're going to do. what i said is i believe that they'll be some sort of public option in the final legislation, whether it comes with a trig or not, don't know. there are some who are pushing that. others not. we'll see. what the president said tonight and i agree with him, is this

cannot be the sum total of the debate. we have to get the insurance reforms, we have to create the exchange, we have to do a series of things that are going to make things bet are for -- for consumers. if we have the chance to do that and get to the point where we're covered virtually everyone in this country, that is an advance worth making. >> i know that we are just about out of time. i just have to ask you briefly if we should expect that the president is going to do things in terms of working with congress from this point forward that he hasn't done yet? is he going to be more in the trenches, more involved in what actually gets moved through congress? >> well, i think we're in the final phases here, rachel. and obviously, that he is going to -- he's going to be aggressive in offering direction where direction is needed. he's also going to be out talking about this and enlisting the american people as we move along. but i think we've made enormous progress. as he mentioned tonight, four or five committees have passed it.

now a fifth said they're going to go next week. that will allow these bills to go to the floors of the respective chambers and, you know, we are headed towards genuine and substantial health insurance reform. we just have to keep at it. and that's what he intends to do. >> white house senior adviser david axelrod, at the end of a very long night. thanks very much for your time, mr. aftxelrod. >> it's good to be here. thank you. the place where the convincing needs to happen, where the arms need to be twisted, where the lyndon johnson of it all needs to happen is the united states senate, of course. california senator barbara boxer joins us here next. we put our economy in the hands of hostile nations. we let big oil make record profits... while we struggle. and we lose new energy jobs, that go overseas. but we can take charge of our economy... by passing strong clean energy legislation. 1.7 million new american jobs. less carbon pollution. and a cleaner america for our children.

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so don't pay attention to those scary stories about how your benefits will be cut. especially since some of the same folks who are spreading these tall tales have fought against medicare in the past, and just this year supported a budget that would essentially have turned medicare into a privatized voucher program. that will not happen on my watch. ly i will protect medicare. >> president obama tonight firing a bit of a shot across the bow at republicans whose party stood against a now very popular government health care program before they started trying to portray themselves as standing for it.

following senator ted kennedy's death two weeks ago, in washington the decision was made today about who will chair the senate health committee as senator kennedy's successor. >> and if ted kennedy were here today, he would applied the fact that tom harkin is going to lead his committee. >> iowa senator tom harkin will be leading the senate health committee. a friend of the public option and self-identified populist. a senator and sponsor of the americans with disabilities act. excuse me. he introduced the senate version of the employee free choice act when he ran for president nearly 20 years ago, he made universal health care part of his presidential announcement. >> i see an america where health care is available and affordable to all. >> if there is health care reform in this country this year, it will be because it finds a way through the united states senate. and if it finds its way through the united states senate, it will be in part because conservative democrats have not found a way to block the

president's agenda, even if republicans couldn't. as well as the agenda of the rest of their party. so how are those prospects then? joining us now is democratic senator barbara boxer of california. senator boxer, thanks for joining us tonight. >> thank you for inviting me. >> thank you for making your way over from there to here. >> yes. isn't that a beautiful sight. >> this is a great spot to watch it. what was your reaction to the speech tonight? >> i was touched. i was moved. i was so happy with the president tonight. because he showed i think a fierce determination to get this done. and he spoke to our strengths i think as americans, all of us, that we have this problem and it's a moral issue and we can't turn away from it. and we all have to do our part. boy, am i ever ready to go. i am so ready. as we bumped into the president, just so lucky i was on my way back to my little office and there he came. and congressman was asking him to do some autographs. i said i don't want an

autograph. i just want to tell you something and i leaned over and gave him a kiss on the cheek and said, you hit it out of the ballpark, mr. president. you know what he said? he said, now, let's get it done. and said that loud. everyone heard it. now, let's get it done. >> wow. >> somebody else might have said thank you, you know, i really am glad. did you really think it was good. he's my friend. he could have said that. he said, now, let's get it done. he's got a look of determination on his face i haven't seen in a while. so i think this was the moment we were waiting for. i think he did this and i really hope now that we have the guts to finish this job, and i thought when he talked about ted kennedy and he talked about the fact that ted had written him and said, read this later, you know, after i'm not here anymore and ted explained why this is so important, it really -- there was not a sound in that chamber.

and the fact that vicki was there and the children were there, you know, sometimes in this world we don't let ourselves get touched. we feel oh, there's something wrong with us if we feel something. i felt a lot tonight, and it certainly is making me stronger than ever to get this job done. i have to do it. it's something i promised my constituents i'd do and they need it, because in california, rachel, listen to this, a nonpartisan study says that by the year 2016 if thwe don't do anything about this, the average family in california will be paying 41% of its income -- 41% of its income -- for health care premiums. that's impossible. the whole system will crumble. >> senator cornyn on the republican side tonight and charles boustany, the republican response from the house, said it's back to the drawing board. what the american people want is to start all over, essentially

making the case that the health care reform thus far this year since president obama has been in office has been wrong-footed and needs to be started all over again. what's your response to that? >> i don't know what their idea is. as far as i can tell it's more of the status quo and more tax cuts to people who have already gotten it seriously. i don't see where they're coming from now. the president, as strong and tough as he was, he still reached his hand out. he said look, we're here. but if you're just about the status quo, then i don't have time. he was -- i don't have time. but if you're serious, let's work together. so he still wants them to come forward and we all want them to come forward but there's no reason to start all over again. we know what's plaguing our people. the fact we're insecure, that their health care will be there when they need it. the fact that 14,000 americans every day lose their insurance. the fact that the costs are going out of control. we know what's going on. and there's no reason to start all over again. we need to finish the job that has been begun.

>> does the job, when it's finished, include a public option? david axelrod just told me in an interview that the president will fight for it. >> good. >> and he said the president tonight called out progressives, call oud ped out progressive fr essentially for wanting it so much, for prioritizing it so much in the fight. do you think it ends up in the bill? >> that's my goal. that's my goal. and the president was very clear why it's important, rachel. he made the case the estimates are only about 5% of the american people actually buy into it. but it would be there as a safe haven. it would be there to make sure there's competition, so the insurance companies are kept honest. it makes sense and the president will fight for it. a lot of us will fight for it. >> do you vote no if it's not there in the bill? >> i never will negotiate on television. barney frank is waiting to come on. that's his line. he said he turned to a reporter, and he said, you don't have a vote. i'm not negotiating with you.

barney, i'm sorry, i stole your line. >> it's important enough to fight for. and it's your goal but you will not put whether or not it has to be. >>ly figi will fight for it. and let me tell you one of the things i'm going to do, i will say to my colleagues that i work with, i will put it to them, if you don't vote for this thing, give up your health insurance. your health insurance is run by the government. it's a government-run plan. and if you don't think it's good enough for you then drop it and don't offer it. but if you're going to keep it, you better give other people a chance. the president alluded to that tonight. boy, i was happy, you know. i was glad because how can you say oh, this is a terrible thing and then keep the public option yourself? >> yeah. senator barbara boxer from california, always great to have you on the show. >> good to see you. if tonight's official republican response to the president's speech wasn't a big enough response for you, well, the family research council is

countering the president's address with a big anti-health care webcast pa louilooza tomor night. congressman barney frank will join us in a moment. new crest pro-health enamel shield

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we've now heard the official republican response to the president's health care address. congressman charles boustany of louisiana, relatively little-known congressman given a big opportunity by his party, telling americans to stick around for his remarks, that the president secretly wants to forcibly replace the insurance coverage you currently enjoy with a government-run program. if that 4:20-something seconds wasn't enough for you the real republican response is actually coming tonight night via webcast, courtesy of frc action, that's the lobbying army of the family research council, a family advocate group. their debate so far is evident at their website and in its action alerts which describe health care reform as, quote, obama's tax and death power grab. which will, quote, produce a moral disaster and, quote, enable the washington liberals to use your taxes to turn their

entire anti-life agenda from unrestricted abortion on demand to euthanasia into national health care policy. yes, the very same people responsible for such rhetorical flourishes as unrestricted abortion on demand will be webcasting a star-studded republican rebuttal for the president's speech tomorrow night. family research council president tony perkins will host the event. charles -- excuse me, congressman charles boustany, tonight's official republican responder, will respond again. but for tomorrow's event, where he will be joined by the top republican in the house, minority leader john boehner. he will also be joined by senator jim demint of south carolina, who is most famous in the health care debate for urging conservatives to fight the president on health care reform not because we don't need reform, but because defeating reform would hurt the president politically. it would be, in mr. demint's words, a chance to break president obama. also participating in the group effort republican conservative response tomorrow is former ohio secretary of state ken blackwell, who's pushing the

myth that health care reform will, quote, mandate taxpayer-funded abortions. mandated abortions. also, a representative from liberty council will be there. you may remember liberty council from this press release, which suggested that the president is out to mandate free sex change surgeries. and, of course, no anti-reform gop tag team would be complete without a renounced edge sithic their side, which is a man named wesley smith is being billed for tomorrow's event. he is among others, a hard-hitting anti-peta article titled -- yeah, that's what it says -- veganism is murder. all in all, tomorrow's republican response is shaping up to be a lot more revealing about the opposition to health care reform than tonight's formal republican response, and i mean that in not at all a good wayment joining us is barney frank, democrat of massachusetts, chair of the house services financial

committee. mr. chairman, thank you for making time to come on the show. >> thank you. >> let me ask you about something that happened tonight that was unexpected and that i didn't expect to have to ask anybody about. a republican member of congress named joe wilson from south carolina screamed, "you lie" at the president tonight, interrupting his speech. is this an ignore the tantrum moment or is that a big deal? >> i don't think it's a big deal. look, i think free speech -- you know, heckling is a tradition, obviously, in the british parliament. even have mikes that come down to hear the heckles. i think what we should take it as, it is unusual, it's a sign of how effective the president was. these guys just couldn't handle it. i looked at john boehner, and he looked about as glum and as dour as -- as possibly he could be. so what joe wilson did was scream out in frustration because the president was nailing it. we have to be clear, wilson lied when he said the president lied.

he talked about illegal immigrants. it's clearly excluded from the bill. i think what he did was a mark of frustration. barack obama is a big boy. i think, i must say, the republicans particularly like joe wilson who want to get into a debate with barack obama is tugging on superman's cape and pulling the lone ranger's mask. but if that's what he wants to do, free country. >> were republicans tonight in a mo more sober response are asking for everything to start over again. they are saying let's go back to square one. they say that's what americans are demanding. everything that happened so far has been wrong foot and they want a restart. >> what they ought to do is go back to square one and judge the reacti reaction. let's be very clear, this assistance on bipartisanship really goes against the notion of democracy. we had an election in 2008, and the democrats won the presidency. significant majorities in the house and the senate. we don't all agree on everything but there were clear differences. there were clear differences. one of the great things the president did today -- and i don't agree with everything he said -- but he articulated the

philosophy of a liberal governance in a very good way about what's the private sector, public sector, interrelationship? the republicans represent an extremely conservative faction. the notion that those of us who won the election with a solid majority should compromise 50/50 with those who lost, why not have a kov he wcover war? let's make it camp. it didn't make any sense. this notion of starting from scratch -- in the first place -- i already had a first place. in second place, if they wanted to start from scratch, why didn't they? they haven't put anything forward. what's been stopping them from january of this year from coming forward with a plan? the answer is they really don't have anything constructive to do. >> when the president was talking about -- about liberalism tonight, about the idea that government has a constructive role to play, i thought that was important just -- not even in terms of health care but just in terms of his presidency. i haven't heard him make that argument before.

>> it's particularly relevant to what i happen to be working on now, which is financial regulation. ronald reagan in 1980 won, his first inaugural, my first year in congress, said government is not the answer to our problems. government is the problem. of course, switch to the bush administration when they were running under wall street saying, we're from the government and we're here to help you. but it was the absence of government not restraining the excesses of the financial sector that caused great problems. and the president hadn't done that. and the fact he did that at the same time -- this annoyed me a little bit -- oh, you on the left and you on the right. it's kind of like i'm above the battle. i think the president underestimated when he came to office exactly how right winged the republicans are and i'm glad he asked them today to join. i have no great hopes for it because they are in the control of the most conservative. knowing how right wing the republican party has become, my only bad moment with barack obama during the campaign was

when he said he was going to be post partisan and i got post-partisan depression because i knew that meant dealing with these people. so i think he was in effect -- i'm talking too much -- their extreme reactionary posture forced him to articulate what he may have previously thought we could take for granted, this liberal approach to a private sector, public sector cooperation and i agree with you, he did it very well. >> one of the things i thought he was interesting in the sense that it was thought provoking and not at all on the surface level, obvious what he meant when he was doing that riff about the importance of governance and about the idea that liberalism is something that ought not be conflated with big government. it should be seen as springing from a desire to help one's fellow man and help one's fellow citizens. one of the things he said is that we will sometimes say that timidity is the only form of wisdom. and it seemed to me that, that was the unexpected shot in the middle of that -- the shot in

the middle of that round. >> again, i think they forced him to -- to get to the basics. i think he may have thought that they were more reasonable than they are, this collection of loons that you scrolled down there. i got to say, those people, if anybody needs a health plan in america, it's those people who are in severe need of mental health services. this lunacy about mandatory abortions and death. by the way, there is a political faction in america that would have the government intervene in what should be the most private moment for people when they are dealing with the last breaths, with when death is there, and that is an intensely private thing. and government shouldn't be in it. but it was the right wing and in the terri schiavo case that got involved in this. so if you do believe government should stay out of that terribly intimate decision, then the people to fear are the right wingers who drove the schiavo bill. >> but the one thing that is very rational in their decision-making about what to do about health care reform is that

they are making a ton of money off of it, that they have energized their own base, that they have sort of brought the christian right back to life, at least in their own estimation. they think this is a big issue for them not necessarily because they're going to win but because it's going to stoke people up that are going to support them. >> coming back to life is after all a very fundamental part of christian doctrine. but it's a nice blend for them of cynicism and stupidity. some of them know better. some of these people talking about death panels, i think some of what newt gingrich said. he's a smart man who's just being cynical. some are just dumb and don't understand it. but i will say this, the one thing i take comfort for, when i'm in a debate with people, if they are making cogent points against what i think is very important, i get a little nervous. i noticed last week in "the new york times" that the responsible conservatives are starting to complain now that the arguments against the obama plan and against our efforts for health

care are being dominated by the crazies. that's their fault. they were very happy to get the crazies out there doing hitler stuff and et cetera. i think the problem is they don't have good arguments. when people make ridiculous arguments against something, it's because that's alwal they got. they can't deny it would be good to improve health care's constituency and extend it to people who don't have it or protect people from arbitrary cancellations from the private companies so they come up with death panels and mandatory abortions. the very weakness to their argument is it's testimony to the strength of ours. >> congressman barney frank, democrat of massachusetts, chairman of the banking committee. it's really nice to have you here. >> nice to have you in washington. come back again. >> will do. >> okay. louisiana senator and d.c. madam client david vitter sent out a fund-raising letter saying that obama's health care plan is actually, all together now, a plot to kill old people. opposition 0 so dishonest you will want to cushion the floor for when your jaw hits it. "the nation's" chris hayes joins us next.

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