are waiting to help you beat the flu... in neighborhoods nationwide. at walgreens we want you to know, there's a way to stay well. right now on "andrea mitchell reports," the hard work begins. the day after the president took charge of the health care debate, he now tries to put together the votes that he needs to make his health care reform plan a reality. >> it will provide more security and stability to those who have health insurance. it will provide insurance to those who don't and slow the growth of health care costs. >> in his speech to congress, mr. obama clearly tried to play on public discontent with all politicians. >> the time for bickering is over. the time for games has passed. now is the season for action. now is when we must bring the

best ideas of both parties together. >> but not so fast. a little-known republican congressman from south carolina then managed to offend both sides of the aisle by interrupting the president during his speech, calling the president a liar. >> there are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. this too is false. the reforms -- the reforms i'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. >> you lie! >> not true. >> that "liar" shout came from joe wilson of south carolina. the disagreement over whether the plan would extend benefits to illegal immigrants. wilson later apologized to the white house, apparently under orders from his own leaders. >> i last night heard from the leadership that they wanted me to contact the white house and

state that my statements were inappropriate. i did. i'm very grateful that the white house, in talking with them, they indicated that they appreciated the call and that we needed to have a civil discussion about the health care issues, and i certainly agree with that. >> and just moments ago, the president after his meeting with the cabinet accepted congressman wilson's apology. >> i'm a big believer that we all make mistakes. he apologized quickly and without equivocation, and i'm appreciative of that. i do think that, as i said last night, we have to get to the point where we can have a conversation about big, important issues that matter to the american people without betrayal, without name-calling. >> and this morning on "today," senator john mccain agreed with the president on the occasion

regarding illegal immigrants not being covered, but he challenged mr. obama's claim that his plan will not add a dime to the deficit. >> it certainly does not curb costs, according to the congressional budget office. it's going to be an additional $1 trillion, and i have yet to see any real meaningful reductions in costs. in fact, the congressional budget office said that there would be cost increases. it does not "bend the curve." >> good day. i'm andrea mitchell live in washington. the president was passionate, he was specific, his rhetoric was powerful. did he go far enough to explain how he would pay for his plan? >> i will not sign it if it adds one dime to the deficit now or in the future, period. part of the reason i faced a trillion-dollar deficit when i walked in the door of the white house is because too many initiatives over the last decade were not paid for, from the iraq war to tax breaks for the wealthy.

>> i will not make that same mistake with health care. >> well, that was the theater. now to the politics. nbc news political director and chief white house correspondent chuck todd and the moderator of nbc's "meet the press," david gregory, joining us now. let's have at it. chuck, first to you. the day after the morning after. was joe wilson sort of a gift that they had not expected, at least make barack obama look like the victim here? >> reporter: it is. it's -- you know, i'm sure they would like other parts of the speech to be talked about, quoted from, but if this is the day two story that comes out of this, which is joe wilson becoming a symbol of the republican party, not wanting to work with the president, the white house will take that. at the same time, i think the actions of the white house today are fascinating. they're meeting behind the scenes with moderate senate democrats, and we're not hearing of talks of republicans.

and there was a lot of -- and a lot of republicans today saying, hey, this is not real bipartisan. we're not seeing it. in many ways, they're right. it's done. the white house's goal was to have the public see him reaching out to republican ideas, help try to win back some of the political middle, but the reality here in washington is that this white house is now working on uniting democrats, and if they can pick up a republican or two. but it's primarily about getting the democratic party together. >> and david, what about that? there was a tip of the hat to john mccain and to orrin hatch and all of those grace notes, but he really now is trying to pull together the democratic party. >> yeah. i mean, the reach out to republicans was more theater at the end of the day. i mean, if there are any programs that come in line in terms of the overall package, the republicans want, fine, but they're not going to get any votes. they were negotiating with senator olympia snowe. maybe they get her and one other, but the real game is with the democrats. and what he did last night was he did what liberal allies wanted him to do, get tough, get

strong, call out republicans. and again, the gift of joe wilson, aside from realizing the problem, he talks about lack of civility in washington and in our major institutions bringing the tone of the town halls into the u.s. congress. i think american citizens should be worried about that. beyond that, it allowed the president to be more dismissive of the right. it gets the left fired up. and in getting fired up, it is to say, we have to work together to make sure we keep the middle here, because we've got to focus on the end game, which is getting reform done. and getting reforms, insurance reforms, universal coverage that are hugely important and that were elusive for decades. >> and chuck, when you look at trying to deal with the democratic party, you've got steny hoyer and nancy pelosi not agreeing, really, on how important the public option is. so, if they can't agree on the policy and the tactics as to how to go about it, this makes it a lot harder. this is rahm emanuel's principal job now, isn't it? >> reporter: sure, it is, but i

would also argue that what pelosi and hoyer are doing is a little more theatrical than maybe we're realizing here. you know, hoyer is speaking to the blue dog democrats, trying to let them know, look, we're not done talking here, we're not done negotiating. and you know, even when you sparse speaker pelosi's words very carefully -- you know, she's saying, you know, the house bill is going to have a public option. you know, she didn't say the health care bill that we send to the president is going to have a public option. that's number one. two, you already see a softening on the left on realizing, they like what the president heard, they're glad that he's getting feistier, as david pointed out, and it's also making them say, okay, maybe we'd better have some flexibility, maybe for a trigger to get -- you know, maybe we put off the public option a few years or at least give it so that we can revisit the issue in a couple of years. >> boy, and you talk about parsing words, chuck and david -- the word required was in there for the first time when they talk about -- when the president talks about if you like what you've got, it won't

change. he's now saying that employers won't be required to change it. there's some wiggle room there. >> well, there is. i think there's a lot of wiggle room in some of the actual policy areas, which is why when the president said there's a lot of important details to be worked out, there was all that laughter, because you know, that's an understatement. and i think the reason why the deficit is so important, the spending is so important is where are they going to get the cost containment and where are they going to raise the revenue? those are the nasty little details that will be the source of a big fight and the source of more confusion, mind you, which is going to be a problem. because the president's in a position where he's got to define it he's got to own. it so the political middle keeps walking around saying, he wants to do this, but i'm okay on this and we have to have this thing. we need reform or we're in trouble in the country. kind of the same thing the bush administration did on social security. very difficult to keep that one thread running through the whole debate. >> and chuck, i don't know if there's a reason that's connected to health care, but there was a homeland security meeting, an evening meeting

tonight that's been canceled. is the president really now boring down on this, and is he going to do the kind of one-on-one or grouped, small group meetings that we've seen past presidents do when they really need to get something approved? >> reporter: well, i think timing is key here, andrea. we heard the vice president today on the "today" show say that thanksgiving -- he basically set the deadline of thanksgiving. well, okay, let's start working your way backwards. the reality of the situation is there is really only about a two-week window here for the president to truly get his hands dirty on that, get so that both the senate and the house are putting bills that are now influenced by the white house and by what the president said. so, i think he has to make it happen in the next couple of weeks. the purpose of this speech was to clear political space so that congressional democrats could start deal-making. >> and we'll get a window, a glimpse into the deal-making on "meet the press." you've got a big lineup. >> yeah. we've got some of the key players.

senators durbin and cornyn, also howard dean and newt gingrich on the president's performance and where this all goes from here. >> doesn't get any better than that. >> thanks, andrea. >> david gregory, chuck todd, thank you. and senator ted kennedy's widow vicki was a special guest of michelle obama last night. mrs. kennedy sat next to the first lady and the senator's children were there as well. the president spoke about sen e senatsenat senator kennedy's lifelong efforts for reform and the final letter he wrote to the president to be delivered on his desk. >> what we face is above all a moral issue. at stake are not just the details of policy, but fundamental principles of social justice and the character of our country. >> senator tom harkin is succeeding ted kennedy as chairman of the senate health committee, joining us now. senator harkin, i know this has been a very tough time for all of you who worked so closely with ted kennedy. you now have very big shoes to fill and a mandate from the

president to perform on health care. are you on board with all of what he said last night? >> well, andrea, you're right, it is a daunting challenge that i now have, but it is a great honor and a privilege to now chair the health committee, otherwise known as senator kennedy's committee. but we're determined we're goes going to get health care reform through and get it through this fall. frankly, i thought the president's speech last night was magnificent. i thought he hit all the right tones and set the agenda quite well for us. and i think now within the next two weeks or so we'll have the bills to the senate floor and then we can going to congress for the house. i'm still hope -- not hopeful, i'm determined to get a bill to the president before we leave here for christmas. >> senator, the president made a special effort to reach out to very nervous seniors who are among the groups who are watching over the august recess, of course, and all those town hall meetings, and they're hearing that costs are going to be squeezed out of medicare.

how do you reassure them? how do you reassure yourself that he can cut costs from medicare without cutting benefits? that doesn't seem to track. >> well, it does track. for example, if you just look about a week ago, andrea, pfizer settled for $2.3 billion on charges that they had been basically defrauding the medicare and medicaid system with overcharges, and that wasn't the first time. pfizer had been fined before. so had glaxosmithkline. so had warner lambert. all these drug companies. plus, we have insurance companies also that have i think been gouging medicare. all we're talking about is cutting out some of that. that's not going to hurt medicare one bit, but it is going to save us a lot of money. >> the public option was very important to members of your committee. you've got max bachus and other members of the finance committee

meeting with the president today. are you willing to give up the public option? are you willing to trigger it or delay it or make it, you know, less of -- more of an option and less important in the final package in order to get a deal? >> first of all, the majority of americans want a public option. a recent poll after august, after all that stuff that happened in august at all these town meetings, 60% of americans still want a public option. >> but not a majority of the senate. you need a majority of the senate for that. >> well, how do we know that, andrea? we have not -- i heard someone say, well, we don't have the votes for a public option. how do we know that? we haven't had a vote yet. and i thought president obama last night was very strong in coming out for a public option. and what he said is this is one part of the bill. now, i think what he meant by that was, look, you can't just vote against bail becaua bill b don't like that one part. i want to see, andrea, a bill

come out that does away with pre-existing condition clauses, that keeps your kids covered until they're age 26, that does away with lifetime caps, that says that insurance companies can't gouge you anymore like they've been doing in the past. put all that in there along with the public option. now, you know, a lot of bills that pass around here, we don't like everything that's in them. there may be one or two things we don't like, but we do like the majority of things that are in the bill. and i think that's what we're looking at with health reform. some of my colleagues may not like a public option, but they like all the other things, and i don't think they'll vote against a bill simply because it has a public option in it. >> are you willing to go along with tort reform? >> i'm always willing to go along with tort reform, but the president addressed that last night. that will be taken up as an adjunct to the health reform bill, something that will be sort of adjacent to and working along with the health reform bill. >> but not part of the main deal? >> i don't think it will be part of the main deal. that's sort of judiciary

jurisdiction. i don't want to get into jurisdictional kinds of things, but it's something separate and apart from the bill that we have. but i do believe it's something worth looking at, and i believe there are reasonable grounds on which we can have a reform of the system but which will still protect an individual's constitutional right to go to court to seek redress. that is a basic, fundamental right in this country. but i think there are things that we can do to give people another option, rather than going to court, there may be another option that they may want to choose, but we can't take away that fundamental, basic right. >> senator tom harkin, the new chairman of the health committee. i think congratulations are in order, but we'll see what happens the next couple of weeks. thank you very much. >> you're right about that, andrea. thank you very much. >> thanks for being with us. >> thank you. and ballots from dozens of polling stations in afghanistan are being tossed out today over allegations of fraud.

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as conflicting calls for withdrawal and increasing the troops in afghanistan heat up, one congresswoman says that the debate over troop strength is missing the point. democratic congresswoman jane harmon of california joins us now. good to see you. thanks so much. >> hi, andrea. >> you had an op ed in the "washington times" today and you wrote, basically, it's the cooperation, stupid, that eliminating corruption in afghanistan is both in the nation's interests and ours -- >> right. >> from the afghan perspective, an honest government would give

the people a genuine say in the direction of their country. for us, it would dramatically increase our national security, both because it would increase the effectiveness of our efforts to fight the taliban and because the end result would be an afghan population more invested in taking on the fight themselves. that is our real objective." >> right. >> how do you get that to happen? >> well, for starters, we should observe and inhale this recent election in afghanistan. it was a sham. that's what i call it in my article. we have plenty of notice that that could happen. i was in afghanistan in april meeting with all the opposition candidates and president karzai, and the opposition candidates predicted what happened, that voter cards could be purchased on the black market, that ballot boxes would be stuffed, that there would be fraudulent election places, et cetera. so, that is just one aspect of the rampant corruption in the country.

meeting with tribal leaders in kandahar in april, they said that if the corruption isn't reduced, and specifically, if walid karzai, the step brother of hamid karzai, isn't removed, they thought they might join the taliban. with that going on, there's no way that more u.s. troops or more isap troops -- those are nato troops -- can make a difference. the people have to be on our side. that was the tipping point in iraq. when we finally got the sunnis to cooperate with us against al qaeda, that's the central feature of a counter insurgency campaign. so, to get there from here, i think step one is eliminate corruption, and we should not even focus on the issue of more troops unless and until that metric is not only defined but achieved. >> well, again, speaker pelosi is in agreement with you on this today. she said, "i don't think there is a great deal of support for sending more troops to afghanistan in the country or in the congress." but how do you eliminate corruption? how do you pressure this

government and do anything at the local level in these tribal regions without the troops to back you up? >> well, i think it starts at the top. for one thing, i read in the newspapers, we have cautioned hamid karzai against declaring victory. there is serious question in the world, not just in our country, about the validity of this election. and i would insist, or i would urge that we consider insisting that he begin immediately to form some sort of unity government, especially including abdullah abdullah, who was his primary opponent, but others, and coming up with a plan to eliminate those members of his cabinet and government who are in the "family" and who are not transparent, competent leaders. if he did that at the top, i'm betting that going down to the tribal level, there would be a lot of interest in beginning to cooperate with this government. at that point, then we look at

whether or not our troop strength is right. but i frankly think what we want to do is help train the afghanis, who are very competent fighters, but who at the moment are not choosing to fight for their government which they don't believe in. >> let me switch you to the health care debate, because you were in the chamber last night, of course -- >> you bet. >> and you saw the way the republicans were sitting on their hands and some heckling, holding up the signs, and then, of course, joe wilson. is this what we've come to? this is sort of transporting the mood and tone of some of the town hall meetings into the house chamber? >> well, it was ugly, and i was very sad to see it. i have enormous respect for this institution, which i have worked if both as a staffer and a member under republican rule as well. i respect what our democracy stands for, which is free debate on the house floor, but calling people a liar is way out of bounds. at any rate, i thought that president obama exceeded my expectations by both being

inspiring and specific, and i think that as people in the country begin to understand what's really in this plan and what's not in this plan, they're going to climb on board, and a lot of republican members and very moderate democratic members are going to start to receive different signals. i strongly support the plan that was described last night. >> you've been a fiscal conservative, and are you persuaded with the way he laid out how he's going to make sure that it doesn't increase the deficit? >> i am a fiscal conservative. i am a member of the blue dogs although i do not support their views on the public option. i support a robust public option, because i think it will correct a market failure. it's a market mechanism, not a government takeover. but at any rate, i'm going to be watching that, and i heard the president say -- and i agree with this -- that this is not going to cost one more dime and that it's going to be financed by reforms within the system, and that if that doesn't work adequately, we're going to cut additional waste and fraud out of government programs, which i

think we should be doing anyway. we've got to reduce the deficit. >> all right, jane harman on all things domestic and foreign, thank you. >> take care, andrea. >> good to see you. >> you, too. and strong thunderstorms could delay the space shuttle "discovery's" return to earth later today. if "discovery" skips tonight's 7:05 landing -- 7:05 eastern, that is -- in florida, nasa would consider the backup touchdown site in as early as tomorrow. we'll be right back. protecting your heart includes watching your cholesterol. now there's new heart health advantage from bayer. its non-aspirin formula contains phytosterols, which may reduce the risk of heart disease... by lowering bad cholesterol. new heart health advantage from bayer. was it really for fun, or to save money on heat? why? don't you think nordic tuesday is fun? oh no, it's fun... you know, if you are trying to cut costs, fedex can help.

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president obama today accepted republican congressman joe wilson's apology for calling him a liar during last night's address to congress. but wilson's outburst might take a toll on republicans' health care reform proposals. here with us now, republican strategist john seery. john, you couldn't have

programmed that worse for the republican party last night. >> sometimes you want to give your commentary of what's going on and it's better to do that under your breath than yelling it out loud. i think that joe wilson apologized quickly and i think he probably should have. we'll see how this plays out. i think the president gave a retorqually very good speech, but i think if you look at the facts, there are so many facts there that kind of boggle the mind. like for example the idea that we're not going to increase the deficit by a dime where we're going to pay for a lot of this through waste, fraud and abuse. people just don't believe that, and i think that's part of the frustration that the republicans feel. >> that is the challenge for the president to back that up, but joe wilson, unfortunately for him, challenged one of the areas where the president does seem to be on solid ground. john mccain agrees that the president in his plan does not include undocumented immigrants. >> well, especially because there was actual language in the plans that say that. i mean, that was -- i think that this is also part of the frustration that at the end of the day, if you have publicly

run health care, at the end of the day, you're going to be paying for illegal immigrants, but when you have specific language in the bill, it's kind of hard to make that commentary. so this is all part of the frustration for some republicans. and i do think that, you know, when the president gives a speech, you do need to listen with respect for the office, if nothing else. >> talking about listening to the speech, eric cantor, one of the republican leaders, was caught on camera texting during the speech. the republicans just visually, how did they do as a party? i know there's a long tradition -- i've been in the chamber -- where one side sits on their hands and the other side applauds and it goes back and forth, but in this case, was that a grace note as well? >> well, you know, the fact -- i've been in the chamber millions -- not millions, but in front of a lot of those speeches, for bill clinton, george bush, and believe me, the activity on both sides of the aisle befits kind of sometimes a large classroom, where you need a teacher to calm people down.

>> elementary school or junior high school. >> exactly. you know, i think that for republicans, they are also representing their constituents who have very deep concerns about this legislation, and i think that they're frustrated because they have actually been shut out, especially in the house, been shut out of any negotiations. and i think they do have some plans that they want to talk to. you talked to karen earlier today on pre-existing conditions. there's so much that they can agree on and they're just not getting a chance to get to the table, especially in the house. >> and we'll have more on that in a moment. by the way, john feehery, thank you very much. i know you worked for former republican speaker, and so you know the house well. good to have your perspective today. >> thanks, andrea, appreciate it. >> is the real solution for health reform starting over from square one that sthas what republicans are saying. the gentleman who gave the republican message last night joins us next, coming up after this break. a whole panel in creg an anti-aging breakthrough.

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if you misrepresent what's in this plan, we will call you out, and i will not -- and i will not accept the status quo as a solution, not this time, not now. >> the president getting tough last night as the health care debate moves forward. he made it clear that he will not accept what went on during the august break. joining us now, congressman charles mustami, who is a cardiac doctor, a surgeon, and delivered the party's response to the address. thank you very much, congressman, for joining us. did you see enough outreach last night? do you think that the president is interested in working with republicans or is he now trying to deal with just the members of his own party? >> i think largely he's dealing with the members of his own party at this stage. andrea, you have to look back. we have tried outreach to the president. we have a number of republican

ideas that we want to offer and put on the table, and the problem we have is that the rhetoric and the actions are not matched up, and you know, i saw one of the president's staff yesterday, and i said i'm happy to sit down at any time. i've got this wealth of experience in health care. i would love to be a part of this debate and a part of the solution. so, we're ready to work with the president. >> but at the same time, when you were talking about last night was starting over. there's no way, given the congressional calendar, that you could start over and get anywhere this year. >> well, here at problem -- we have a bill in front of us, hr-3200, in the house, and the bill is deeply flawed. there are many problems with this bill. and what i said when -- what i really meant to say when i said start over is, look, let's recraft the bill. we have the ideas. it's just a matter of putting them into legislative form and moving forward. the bill that we have in front of us that's passed both committees is really a nonstarter.

>> if that's a nonstarter, then is there any common ground to be had? i mean, where are the negotiations going to go? >> well, of course there's common ground. there is plenty of common ground. in fact, i would venture to say that we agree on about 80% of the issues right now. it's just a matter of hashing out those few areas where we disagree, but there's really not been that kind of real discussion, and it needs to happen. >> do you believe that the president can get enough savings out of medicare and out of the existing program to live up to his promise that it will not increase the deficit by "one dime"? >> no, i don't believe that, because first of all, we're struggling with medicare as it is today, medicaid as well, and these programs are headed for insolvency, and it's going to be very difficult. now, there are savings to be had, but i don't think you can say that we can pay for this completely with just those savings. we have some tough decisions to make, and that's why there needs

to be broad consensus and an open, full, substantive debate on all of this, because the decisions are going to be tough, and the american public needs to be involved in this. >> all right. congressman and dr. charles boustany, thanks for joining us today. >> thank you. >> and the president is courting members of his own party, those blue dog democrats, critical members of the finance committee and others, including arlen specter. he joins us next. come on. [ kissing ] come on. good girl. mollie's never looked better. i really was amazed to see the change in her coat. people stop us when we're walking, and they'll say, "did you shine up her spots?" [ woman announcing ] just another way purina one... unlocks the brilliance of nature... to transform the life of your dog.

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the rest of the body is a no brainer. doesn't your whole body deserve excedrin strength relief? excedrin back & body. excedrin. what ache? president obama is meeting with some moderate democrats today in just about two hours. in fact, democratic senator arlen specter will be in that meeting. the senator joins us now. senator, what do you want to hear from the president today? what gaffes did you hear last night, if any, on the spending, budget-cutting side, for instance to make you comfortable with the health care plan? >> i thought the president made

a really good speech, really inspirational and outlined a kpre comprehensive program, but i think some of the details would be helpful. if, for example, on the savings, he would specify what they are. i think he is right on target in saying that we ought to have a bill which will not add to the deficit or the national debt, but i think the public would be more comforted if we were specific, for example, on how much will be saved by the early intervention -- annual examples, catching breast cancer at an early stage, catching chronic diseases before they become so expensive. what could be saved on fraud on medicare and medicaid if we put people in jail instead of fining them. what could be saved by changes in lifestyle, on the sensible use of advanced directives. i think if that could be nailed

down, it would get a lot of public support. >> senator john mccain on the "today" show today spoke out about whether or not there's been enough bipartisanship. you've been a republican. you're now a democrat. this is what senator john mccain had to say today. >> this went through four or five of the committees without a single republican negotiator in the room. there has been no bipartisanship in addressing the health care issue. i've been in bipartisan negotiations. i know what they are. it has been totally absent from the addressing of this issue. >> now, you're a veteran senator. you know what bipartisanship is. is senator mccain correct? does he have a fair point? >> well, there has not been bipartisanship, but i don't think that that's because of the failure of president obama to reach out. there have been discussions with a number of republicans on the finance committee and they haven't been very fruitful. but i would take senator mccain

on his statement today and urge him to join me and join others on trying to work out a bipartisanship arrangement. we're really, andrea, at a very early stage in the whole legislative process, and i think john mccain is right and i'd like to see senator mccain reactivate the old gang of 14, which was so effective in defusing the process we had on judicial confirmations in 2005 when i chaired the judiciary committee. >> would the gang of 14 replace the gang of 6? are you kind of tired of waiting for max bachus and his gang to deliver? >> well, i think the gang of 14 could supplement the gang of 6. that might make it the gang of 20. wouldn't be too many people to have an effective gang, but i would take what senator mccain said today on a positive note,

and as a call for bipartisanship, and i certainly would be delighted to be a part of it. >> all right. arlen specter, thank you so much. we've got a lot of gangs up there on the hill. thank you, senator. and up next, republican senator orrin hatch, he's got his own gang. will his friendship with the late senator ted kennedy encourage him to reach across the aisle and get a health care bill passed? that's next on "andrea mitchell reports." here you go. whoa! that's some serious insurance. ding-ding-ding! ding! ding! fun fact -- progressive is the number-one truck insurer. yeah, great service at the right price. and nowadays, my business depends on it. do you have anything like that for my car? yes! our car insurance comes with 24/7 claim service, and you can save hundreds. so, what you haulin'? oh, eight-year-olds to soccer practice. nine! oh, precious cargo. protecting what matters most to you. now, that's progressive. call or click today.

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welcome back to "andrea mitchell reports," and here is a look at some of the headlines we are following. white house economists say that the obama administration's recovery efforts have saved or created more than a million jobs. president obama has promised that number will reach 3.5 million by the end of next year. of course, they don't talk about how many jobs were lost in any case through the normal economic

cycle. u.s. envoy to iraq christopher hill says the timetable to remove all combat forces from iraq by next august remains on target. this as parts of the country have been very hard hit in recent weeks by a wave of insurgent attacks. and nasa has decided to move the space shuttle "discovery" out of the path of orbiting space junk. "discovery" is scheduled to land in cape canaveral this evening, weather-permitting. president obama has invoked senator kennedy's passion for reform as he made his appeal to congressional leaders last night on both sides of the aisle. republican senator orrin hatch of utah joins us now. senator, you heard the president last night in that very powerful, very emotional appeal with the last will and letter of senator kennedy to president obama, calling for health care reform. does that move those of you who worked so closely with ted kennedy to try once again to reach a bipartisan solution

here? >> well, i'd like nothing better than to reach a bipartisan solution, but the president was long on rhetoric and not a lot on the facts of the so-called plan that he's talking about, and i have to say, you know, when he promises that you can keep your own insurance and that your own plan that you want, that he's not going to raise taxes, there's not going to be any, you know, that you'll be able to, you know, continue just the way you are -- well, you know, any time washington makes those promises, you know darn well they're never kept. so, he's a long way from being able to put together a bipartisan plan with what was mentioned last night. i thought the speech was great, as usual. he's a wonderful speaker, but it was also quite partisan. >> he did talk about some of the things that you and john mccain had proposed. he included one provision from senator mccain. was that enough of an effort to reach out to republicans? >> well, he made the point that about 80% of what they're talking about we probably could

agree on, but it's the 20% where all the money is, where we have a lot of disagreements. for instance, he was saying, basically, that they're going to have a public plan in one form or another, that they're going to have an employer mandate. and see, i have a lot of problems with that, mandate, the employers are penalized if they don't provide health insurance and guess who will get hurt the worst? the low-income employees that are either going to be cut back on their salaries, lose their jobs or the company will go overseas. then he says they will have an individual mandate and there will be no tax increases and give me a break. families earns $66,000 a year, if they don't have health care they are going to get assessed $3800. that's a tax whether you like it or not. you can go on and on. he is not going to move -- you know, they are going to move people into medicaid. one of the big goals of the democrats, at least in all the bills i have seen so far, is to move as many people into medicaid as they possibly can.

and thus go towards the single payer system that way. and look, medicare, you know, they are not going to do anything to hurt medicare. they are going to take $130 billion out of medicare advantage which most seniors really like especially in the rural areas. and there's only one reason they are doing that, in my opinion. they consider it a republican part of the original medicare modernization act. well, these are taxes and these are more burdensome rules and expenses will be high. they said, you know, said last night that it is going to be less than a trillion dollars. they don't even count the first three years of -- four years up to 2013. it is not a ten-year score when you come to $880 billion or trillion dollars. it is really $1.5 to $3.5 trillion no matter which way you look at it. if you leave the score without deleting the first three, four years. these are all problems that had

to be worked out. and i'm willing to work them out with him but, you know, when you look at it they came up with a very partisan bill and senate health committee. very partisan bill on the house t ri-committee bill. now senator baucus has not been given the flexibility to do much more than what they wanted to begin with. >> senator, the president today tried to rebut some of those very criticisms the republican criticism, takeover. this is what this the president had to say today. >> if i could repeat, this is a source of the rumor that we are plotting some government takeover of health care, it would just be one option among many. no one would be forced to choose it. everybody believes that the vast majority of people will still be getting their insurance through private insurance. add it all up and the plan i'm proposing will cost $900 billion over ten years. $90 billion a year. >> i know you disagree with the scoring and you say that is not accurate, that they are not counting the first couple of years. and you also said just now that

senator baucus has not been given flexibility and just spoke on the subject an hour ago. let me play it for you. >> this is basically did a what that proposal is. >> so senator baucus and his colleagues are going to the white house today. are you ready to rejoin the finance committee meetings and try to, you know, have your voice heard? >> well, i can't support what senator baucus is arguing for. i'm not sure any republicans can. and again, you have employer mandates and employee mandates and moving people into medicaid and, you know, the cbo says at least 10 million people will move into medicaid. the group says at least 1s 19.1 million people will move from private sector into medicaid. it has to be somewhere between that and i can bet your bottom dollar that lewin is a lot closer to the truth than the congressional budget office at

this point. lewin is highly respected until we got into the partisan aspects of the bills. you add it all up and it doesn't make sense. and look, it is not an $880 billion bill. they don't count the first four years. only bill has six seven, years. >> bottom line with the possible exception of olympia snowe and maybe one or two others that this is going to be a democratic bill if it comes through? >> no question about that. i really sincerely doubt if olympia or susan will go with them. i -- really sincerely doubt that chuck grassley and senator enzy will go with them. the one thing the president said where people can get insurance across state lines, anywhere in the country, lowest possible prices they can, that's a good idea but that's an idea that republicans came up with long ago. that takes some conservative

democrats came up with that as well. when he talked about medical liability reform, he is talking about, you know, small projects. we don't need small projects. we know what's wrong. we know that doctors overprescribe and they -- utilize -- overutilize medical devices and do a lot of things to keep that history that they write and to protect themselves so that they have done everything possible they can to rule out any and all things. and most of those are not -- not necessary. and consequently we are spending hundreds of billions of dollars extra just because doctors are so afraid of the medical liability. that does not even count how much it costs doctors inform pay for their medical liability polici policies. obstetricians alone, think about it. >> we are going have to leave it there. >> okay. >> we are out of time. we will -- to be continued. we will talk about this a lot more before it is all over. thank you so much for joining us today. that does it for me this hour.

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