i knew the subaru legacy was the smart choice... what i didn't expect... was the fun. the all-new subaru legacy. feel the love. now is the time to act and i will not permit reform to be postponed or imperilled by the usual ideological diversion. >> now or never. president obama looking to see the initiative on the health care after last night's speech to congress. shocking moment that could turn out to be turning point in this debate. >> the reforms i'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. >> you lie! >> wanted me to contact the

white house and state that my statements were inappropriate. i did. >> yes, it was a forced apology and could wilson dig deeper? could the heckling of the president of the united states finally what unifies the democrats? breaking news from south carolina governor mark sanford. he is devil raysing the media today after lawmakers of his own party ratchet up their call for him to resign. >> first of all, this conversation never took place. okay? >> bernie madoff coaching a potential witness on how to fool the sec. how did the fed get it so wrong and miss so many clues? good afternoon. i'm david shuster. live in washington. >> i'm tamron hall live in new york. big picture this hour, president obama accepts congressman joe wilson's apology. republican house member from south carolina yelled out you lie during the president's health care speech to congress last night.

and later apologized. take a listen to the outburst heard around the world. >> the reform -- the reforms i'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. >> you lie! >> not that the outburst would have been inexcusable behavior but add this to the equation. here is the exact wording approveded by three house committees. congressman wilson said today he still believes illegal immigrants, as he said, illegal aliens, will get health insurance under the president's plan and also told reporters exactly what happened after he heckled the president. >> last night heard from the leadership they wanted me to

contact the white house and state that -- my statements were inappropriate. i did. very grateful. we need to discuss the issues and i'm happy to do that. >> he apologized quickly and without equivocation. and i'm appreciative of that. i do think that, as i said last night, we have to get to the point where we can have a conversation about important issues that matter to the american people without name calling. >> and those were the are from the president. obviously, there is still a lot of back and forth. it is a delicate balance. it is such an important conversation. you don't want those remarks made by congressman wilson to overshadow the president's speech. but it is a big part of what people see as a problem and this -- anger and inability to come together on something so important.

what the president called yesterday the moral responsibility, if you will, of the united states to provide health care to all. >> their. there's also a moral component to the story as it reach tess second day. as we heard it seems as if joe wilson had to be prompted to apologize and that, of course -- according to a lot of people diminishes theal boyy and stand big this false claim illegal immigrants will be covered. so, again, i mean, the white house is facing the same conundrum with an open irregardless his behavior last night. >> let's in valerie jarrett, the senior adviser to the president. thank you for making time for us today. we appreciate. >> it my pleasure. how are you guys? >> we are doing well. let me ask you how is team obama doing today? 4:15 eastern time, the president is expected to meet with moderate democrats and that's telling, actions following the speech where he feels his priority must be to move this fall board. >> well, as he says very clearly last night, he wants to be the

president that gets this done. i think it was an opportunity for him to outline his plan to the american people and he came across very clearly and we have had an outpouring of responses today from people all over the country. both regular people, mayors, governors, you name it, all prepared to get behind the president's plan and move this forward. now many people are still wondering, valerie, how can the president show such patience for his -- desire to have bipartisanship here when you look at just the wilson moment, some of the other instances where it appeared that the gop sat on their hands even when something as simple as death panels are not true were uttered from the president's mouth. how can you get a bipartisan spir white it is so clear some stand? >> listen, he mentioned last night he's -- terrific idea from senator john mccain and the president is open to good ideas and republicans and democrats, from members of congress and from average americans and that

take the time to write him a letter and express to him what their concerns are. you have to keep in mind that he's focused on delivering health care reform to the american people. and when he encouraged last night let's rise above all of the dissension and acrimony and remember why we are here. we are here to change our country. we are not here to just stay in the status quo. >> you are one of the advisers that is the first and sometimes last to talk to the president about events like this, big speeches. was there a particular moment that stood out in his mind last night or something that surprised him or zmg -- what was his takeaway from the speech? anything in particular that he drew your attention to? >> well, when he really remarked was not so much -- not so much anything particular about his speech but the reaction he was receiving from such a wide range of people. the fact that he is hoping that that speech was able to galvanize the american people, galvanize congress, and really

get across the finish line. as you know we made so much progress that four committees already have gone to markup to have the big committee within the next week or two, hoping to reach closure. he sees we are so close to the finish line. i think last night was an opportunity which he always enjoys to speak directly to the american people about what is on his mind and why he is fighting so hard to bring the kind of change we need. >> valerie, we are almost out of time. i have to ask you about the decision to mention the letter written by senator kennedy. can you give us any back story how the president came to the point where he decided that was something he needed to share? >> he was very move and touched by it. he was very close to senator kennedy. the loss caused them a great deal of pain and going to the services was very moving to them. i think he thought that the words of senator kennedy -- because senator kennedy was such an icon within the senate and

because hay had such a reputation for working in a bipartisan basis when the president highlighted his relationship with orrin hatch and with john mccain, i think he was sending a message and this is what this is all about. let's put all of that acrimony aside and focus on doing what senator kennedy would have done. so i think it was a perfect reminder for what is at stake here and what the opportunity and that we really can solve this problem if we work together. >> all right. valerie, thank you very much. great things for making time for myself. we appreciate it. thank you. >> good to see you both. the bigger picture. as far as the speech last night, reaction today should congressman joe wilson be punished in some fashion for his outburst during the president's speech? democratic senator specter thinks so. here is what he wrote today on twitter. there ought to be a reprimand or censure of representative joe wilson to discourage that kind of conduct in the future. joining us is michael burgess, republican from texas.

congressman, do you believe that joe women son should be censured in order to try to make sure members know they shouldn't be doing these sorts of things? >> i think representative wilson apologized and told the president last night and apologized, as i understand. the president accepted his apology. i think that ends it. >> does it end it, though -- by congressman wolf in his own voice today, prompted to apologize by the republican leadership. it was their idea, not his. doesn't that kind of diminish the apology? back to the point how do you dissuade your colleagues from doing this in the future? >> on tissue of leadership i don't -- i don't know. i'm not a part of leadership. you will have to take that up with people in the know. but as far as i'm concerned, i think there's probably no one in congress who would rather have those words back than joe wilson. and i think he spoke honestly and from his heart. at the same time, it was -- invited the president into our house and invited the senate into our house and there are

rules of decorum that need to be observed. >> are you at all disappointed that this moment of a bad decision seen by all here agree it was a bad decision on congressman wilson's part and overshadowing any ideas that it seems the republicans might have today and in a counter to what we heard from the president? this is the gop's big moment and a man yelling out "you lie" to the president. >> actually, i don't know if this was a gop's big moment. it was the president's big moment. i was disappointed that the president had not heard the voices from august like many of us did. i came to that speech last night wondering if perhaps we hit the reset, rewind or at least the pause button on this legislation, and begin to rework or rethink some of these things. we heard a lot from the american people over august. they don't trust the congress to do something that is this big. >> saying that he is listening to ideas brought up by john mccain. he's also brought up the issue of malpractice. something that was brought up by

george w. bush. he did offer up examples. >> let me speak to the liability issue because i have been very outspoken in trying to communicate to the white house on this subject. and to tell thank you truth, to this point, i have been ignored by the transition team and chairman of my committee and by the current white house. so this was a -- a last-minute edition in my opinion and whether he is genuine or not remains to be seen. obviously i have information going back down to the white house. and if you still want to talk i'm open to doing so. we have a great story to tell in texas. we don't need to study it any longer. the results are in. liability reform in the medical community delivered big time for the state. >> congressman, just so we are perfectly clear here. you do believe it was wrong what congressman wilson did last night, right? >> well, i think the -- again, i think -- wilson would go agree that -- >> you are allowed to say, congressman, yes or no. yes, it was wrong, no it wasn't.

yes or no, was it wrong or not? >> well, it was not in accordance with the decorum of the house. let me quickly add -- >> again -- >> i was uncomfortable about the democrats' response to george w. bush. >> name one. >> when the president stood up and talked about his efforts to reform social security. >> not a single member of congress, as you know, interrupted the president and shouted "you lie." huge difference. >> i was in the bod why you that night. i was in the body that night. i witnessed -- >> member of texas cannot come on and say what congressman wilson was wrong. we appreciate your coming on. we always appreciate you coming on this particular program even if we disagree. >> thank you. by the way we want to know what all of you think about congressman joe wilson's decision to shout "you lie kwats at president. you can register your feelings on our website, tv.msnbc.com.

tamron, you know, i think that was telling when a fellow colleague is not willing to say he was wrong. it goes to show perhaps the pressure that some of the republicans are under by their own right wing supporters back home. >> it is interesting on your part because i -- assumption he assumed it was wrong by his language but would not flat-out say that it was wrong. interesting, though, just minutes after last night leaders like john mccain on the right who came out and admonished wilson and said that behavior was unacceptable. certainly some win that party willing to step up. but not many right now. this morning, just about 12 hours after the president president addressed the congress, talking about health care once again. he told a group of nurses that congress needs to act now. >> is real concerns about any aspect of my plan, let's address them. if there are real differences, let's resolve them. but we have talked this issue to

death. year after year, decade after decade, and the time for talk is winding down. the time for bickering passed. we are not the first generation to take up this cause but we can and have to be the last. >> house speaker pelosi said this morning a bill will be on the president's desk by the end of the year. the speaker also went after her republican counterpart for not offering up any idea. >> the month of august while people were complaining about the public option, they only put it the table, with their best shot, distortion, misrepresentation, and obstruction. so far we haven't seen a better idea. >> house minority leader john boehner said today the current legislation should be scratched and president should start from scratch. >> it is not about this bill or that bill. it is about the president pushing the reset button. and there is a way to start this process over. and i think that's really what

the american people want. let's start over and let's start over in a bipartisan way. and let's work on those things we can agree on. >> joining us now, congresswoman maxine waters. democrat from california. thank you so much and pleasure to have you on. let me get your reaction what minority leader boehner said about the reset starting over. we are hearing a lot of republicans utter that today. >> well, the republicans have been coming up with various scenarios as we have gone through this debate. and the fact of the matter is that the president said the time is now. let's stop bickering. let's stop delaying. let us move to have real reform and health care so that american citizens can stop paying too much for health care and taking a portion of their income for basic coverage. he took the time last night to explain the facts of the bill. he talked directly to seniors and talked about how we were going to pay for it and i think he stepped up to the plate and

even went into public options which has been, you know, a source of disagreement. >> which is what makes me curious. were you satisfied with his answer or where it is -- how he explained his position on public option? >> well, i would have preferred that he would have said that he was is portative of it unequivalental, no other thing that he -- he didn't say that. what he said was he supports it and he would rather have it. he's open to listening to people who have better ideas. and i don't think that there are any better ideas about how you can contain the cost but he did leave the door open. >> as you know the president is serving above the partisanship but it is a partisan atmosphere here. congressman joe women son or by the congressman we just had, michael burgess who was unable to say what the congressman wilson said last night and did was wrong. describe the atmosphere as you see it and what do you make of this?

>> well, first of all, someone was speaking to congressman dingell last night who has been here for 50 years and said he never experienced anything like in the time that he has been a member of congress. it was shocking. we were all embarrassed and shaken. and we surprised that a member of congress would treat the president of the united states that way. and so -- >> number of -- congressman burgess is unwilling to say it is wrong. that suggests the congressman wilson has his supporters who are not even willing to sort of condemn him. >> well, that is true. i think that tells the american people about what we are dealing with. when they talk about bipartisanship, if you can't even admit a mistake, if you can't admit calling the president of the united states in a public forum like that a liar, then you know how difficult it is for us to try

and communicate with them and to work out things with them. they are not prepared to be cooperative. as a matter of fact, they don't want health care reform bill, period. and they will come up with everything that they can think of to stop or kill this bill. >> congressman maxine waters, thank you for joining us. coming up in our next hour, we will talk to health and human services secretary sebelius as well as house majority whip james cli born. interesting mix of things here, incredible speech despite what side of the conversation you are on. the president did speak to both sides, progressives, conservatives directsly to the american people and interesting, the big question remains can there be a bipartisan effort and i -- i think that watching what they saw last night certainly may not think so. >> yeah. maybe the skepticism is grounded. now perhaps even more pressure on the republicans. we are getting every indication this hour and i no i we are

going to talk about this at the top of the 4:00. every indication that public opinion did take a huge boost, did move in the president's direction in a significant way last night. among those that watched the speech. that does have a political impact as well. question is can the democrats leverage it. >> coming ing a news conferenc shed light on recent political developments. more republicans are calling for the governor to resign. we are going to carry that for you live in 20 minutes. >> first, madoff tapes. how the billionaire swindler coached a potential witness to fool the federal investigators. or at least they tried. ( whooshing ) announcer: you could buy 300 bottles of water.

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revelations and new questions involving bernard madoff's massive ponzi scheme. >> that's right. the questions are being raised by congress. the senate banking committee is holding a hearing right now into why the securities and exchange commission did not know about madoff's fraud scheme for more than a decade. among those who are testifying and you see the senator from rhode island, democrat, among those testifying. the sec inspector who revealed in the report last week how the agency bungled five investigations into madoff's business, more than 16 years. officials released audiotapes of a phone call in 2005 which madoff tried to coach a potential witness about how to fool the securities and exchange commission. >> you don't have to be brilliant with these guys.

>> you don't have to be too brilliant with the sec. three years to the day after that conversation, madoff confessed to the largest ponzi scheme in history and is now serving a 150-year sentence. more of what our viewers need to know. preacher under arrest as god wanted him to hijack the plane in mexico city yesterday. >> it was a big breaking news story around this hour. authorities say 44-year-old jose mo flores. police say that the man used a juice can claiming it was a bomb to hold 103 passengers and crew members on the tarmac more than an hour. everyone was released without being harmed. >> a juice can. amazing. police in connecticut are searching for a missing yale university medical student who was supposed to get married this weekend. 24-year-old annie lei was last seen on surveillance camera leaving a lab where she frequently works. this was on tuesday. her keys, money, and credit

cards were found left in the building. police say that there's no evidence of foul play. but friends say lei had been planning her wedding for a year and would not just walk away. still ahead here, disgraced lawmaker resigns but says he did not have an affair despite these words caught on tape. you've wanted to quit smoking so many times,

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i'm michelle caruso cabrera. stocks are higher across the board. the dow up roughly 40 points. s&p 500. 7 1/2. nasdaq higher by 17. dow gained, up 54. oil prices are up 63 cents. u.s. crude inventory decreased more than expected last week. oil settled just below $72 barrel. jobless claims fell more than expected last week. evidence the companies are laying off fewer workers. labor department says initial enemployment benefits fell to 550 thousand. down 26,000 from the previous week. owners of new york's landmark restaurant tavern on the green filed for bankruptcy protection. the filing comes four months before it turns over its lies ento another operator. that's it from msnbc. we are first in business worldwide. now back to msnbc. welcome back, everybody.

i'm david shuster live in washington. >> i'm tamron hall live in new york. >> to the big picture as the president tries keep the momentum going on his pitch for health care reform. new numbers out today show the number of uninsured americans is on the rise. new figures from the census bureau show last year 46.3 million people did not have insurance. that number is up from 2007 when 45.7 million million americans were uninsured. the president cited those statistics to a speech to the american nurses association. he says now the situation is even worse. >> since the recession intensi y intensified last september, the situation has xwroen worse. over the last 12 months it is estimated the ranks of the uninsured swelled by nearly 6 million people. that's 17,000 men and women every single day. >> the president said under his plan uninsured americans would have affordable access to insxhurns people with insurance

would have greater security. in the bigger picture, president obama's health care claims and how they face up against the facts. his address to congress last night, the president spoke about the misinformation floating around. so how much of his health care speech was read and n and? first up, death panels. president obama took on conservatives who say health care reform would limit end of life care and encourage euthanasia. >> the best example is the claim that made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts but by prominent politicians that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. such a charge would be laughable if one weren't so cynical and so irresponsible. it is a lie, plain and simple. >> here the president is correct. the death panel claims have been widely debunked. joining us to look at more of what the president had to say,

health care reporter for politico thanks for joining us. i want to get to the first plan. the president says you would not be required to change your coverage. let's play exactly what he had to say. >> if you are among the hundreds of millions of americans who already have health insurance through your job or medicare or medicaid, or the va, nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage of the doctor you have. >> change in the president's wording there. what's the truth here? >> listen to him over and over again. you can -- you notice the change last nature. that is he said that there will be nothing that will require employers or individuals to change their insurance. and that is true. and the shuttle shift was that there is this possibility that insurers -- americans will see their insurance change or

coverage changed. just because that can happen any -- at any point as it does now. so he changed the wording a little bit to get away from some of the criticism of that statement which he is making a promise as some say he may not be able to keep. on the face of it what he said last night is there -- nothing in the bill that will require employers or individuals to change their insurance and that is true. always a possibility down the road something could happen, though. >> plan number would we pulled out about medicare and president saying he will protect it. let's listen. >> don't pay attention to the scary store bees how your benefits will be cut. especially since some of the same folks who are swepreading e tall tales fought medicare in the past and this year support ad budget that would have turned medicare in a a privatized voucher program. that will not happen on my watch. i will protect medicare. >> there you have it. the president defending what he says is his stand and the truth taking a jab at some of the republicans out there. what's the truth here? >> again, the president as part

of paying for the package, he's proposing cuts to medicare. he saying he can be done through waste and inefficiency and he also is proposing changes to the way doctors perform their services and hospitals perform their services. and that can bring more money out of the system. but it does remain unclear whether or how this will truly affect care in the long run. we don't know if the savings can really be realized. how much of it can be new proposals coming out about a trigger to force savings. and again, this is one of the areas where it is creating confusion because -- a lot of different opinions on it. >> another claim last night, the president said he will not add to the deficit. here is what he said. >> i will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits. either now or in the future. >> all right. we are going to have to cut you off. we will get back to that.

mark sanford under pressure to resign. a news conference right now. let's listen in. he is bringing his staff in and responding to requests from the speaker of the house that he resign. listen. >> startling. i thought it was alarming and i think it is a real problem. and with regard to the overall process going forward. and it is for that reason i want to hold this press availability. what i would like to do is have them lay it out, the way the process works and then come back and give you a few thoughts and may open up for a couple of questions. then i will run on and let you do the same. fair snuff? >> thank you. good afternoon. i want to talk to you briefly about the commission investigation process and then the information that the governor just referred to, new development.

the normal process and normal procedure of the investigation in the ethics commission is to determine that the investigate torre phase, determine if probable cause exists and to go forward. okay. that's where we are right now. we are in the probable cause phase of the investigation which means investigate haveors with the documents, the witnesses, they can subpoena witnesses if they want and they come up with their side of the facts. the governor did not have an opportunity during the initial preliminary process. the governor has no opportunity to weigh in give his side of the story, present a defense, present any facts he thinks may exonerate him or anything of that sort. this is purely one-sided approach. the investigators then come up with a preliminary report and this report is written and that report has been given to the

ethics commission, the commission members. nine commission members meet in executive session to determine if probable cause exists to go forward with a hearing and then give the governor an opportunity to defend himself. okay. three panel. confusing it already. three panel is after they determine if there is a probable cause. okay. initial determination and always done in private, executive session, and that is there probable cause to move forward. okay. that report never made public. yes, have we waived confidentiality, wily have. it means that the fact of the investigation is public and the document, the form, complaint form itself is made public. that's it. this report is given to the commission to determine probable cause exists and never made public. the only person it is given to or only entity are the attorney

general or prosecutorial -- that's it. look at the law and regs, that's it. all right. in this case, we learned through meetings with the -- executive director of the ethics commission they intend to give this preliminary report to the general assembly. on the basis of the representations made on the basis of their belief that the general assembly prosecutorial body. i'm here to tell you as a matter of law that the general assembly is not a possible tu co prosecutorial body. talking about impeachment -- >> what we are hearing from the lawyer for sanford is they are trying to explain perhaps one of the reasons why the house speaker suddenly called for the resignation of mark sanford. and what the lawyer is trying do explain that there is a preliminary investigation that's been sort of under way and that accounts to this investigation

have now spread. let's bring in mark potter who is joining us. do i have this about right, they are trying to explain that the governor has not had an opportunity to defend himself against this preliminary investigation and politicians should slow down and wait? >> yes. basically what you are seeing here is in the main is governor sanford fighting to keep his job and explaining why. that's really what's going on here. he will speak after the lawyer to talk about how he thinks that the process is moving too fast and incorrectly. he will also talk, i believe, as he did in a letter that went out publicly about how he believes he has done nothing illegal. and that the process should just go forward, that if he's given his due and given his chance, he should be able to fulfill his term as governor. now, as has been reported widely, what seems to have sparked this, let's go back to the governor now. >> i'm not a lawyer. i think -- go back.

i thought about it. i think of it in these terms. we had a real problem if members of the general assembly are going and trying to influence and truncate an ethics committee process so they can get the intended results if they skwan then use that for impeachment. that's the real problem that's in plain english. and, you know, if you go this route, you are setting up a kangaroo court where you ought to base it on media headlines or you ought to just base it on clinical opponents' accusations and what i think is very, very important when you think about something like this is that actually they see it on the facts. rather than simple accusations. so i get they with like to see me gone but that's not different for the last six years.

that has been a constant whispering for the 6 1/2 years. the difference is they think they had something they could actually force me to leave office out on and the difference here, i think, new development is, you know, you cannot -- no longer able to look over the shoulder of what the general aseem sbli doing. here is what i mean by that. when we pushed for transparency and ultimately went all the way to supreme court supreme court on this notion of transparency, it used to be the only way of doing business, you know, sign up a bill and hand the back of the envelope to the -- agency in question and say we want these three things funded. was that a challenge? has it caused ill-will? yes. we stood on spending. yes. have we been -- vindicateded from the sfintd we were getting ahead of spending and getting ahead of ourselves and sure

enough look at where it is and global economies and impact of south carolina budget. has it stirred up a hornet's nest when we talk about the notion of not getting ahead of ourselves and spending and restructuring and host of other things. yes. it did. i keep going back to the larger notion with even senator mcconnell said the other day you should not base one's findings or one approach to this -- serious matter simply based on popularity contest within the general assembly. if that -- the definition of how he determined something like that, i can tell you the outcome now. and i think many people in this room can and will. so i -- i guess -- again, let me try to simplify this with all due respect. what i think you are trying to say and what i am certainly trying to say is that it is not okay to short-circuit an ethics

process to try to get the result you want. or to try to get reached into seclusion which would give thank you result you want. or put another way, it is not okay to short-circuit the process to set up a system where you get full control of governor in south carolina with no check or balance from the executive branch. i think we are dealing with a fairly big issue. let me give you more concrete as to what you are getting now. what we know is that david thomas went to meet with herb hayden who is the executive director of ethics committee. with all due respect to david thomas' investigation thus far and we have -- we talked about how fundamentally flawed that thing is. i mean, any time you go out and say you broke the law based on using business class tickets used in south carolina for the last 30 years that republicans and democratic governors alike, secretary of commerce, consistently -- >> continuing to talk about the process here.

key question that everybody is waiting on is his response when asked specifically the republican house speaker of the south carolina legislature asked he resign, what's your answer to that? that's what a lot of the reporters and media and everyone is waiting to see how he deals with nap again, we will continue to listen to him. complain about the process and hopefully he will get that question and he will respond in just a moment when reporters start asking. >> turning it over to the right and saying in this case to the governor's office, you broke the law. if you look at the context of his investigation you say this is not an investigation. this is more of something else. and so it is telling that he has gone to meet with herb hayden, executive director and telling bobby harold has gone to meet with the executive director but even more telling is the fact that sanford said this. he said this a couple of times recently. and this is not verbatim but this is roughly what he said.

he said the house does not -- in response to a question -- a conference, couple of conferences, the house does not want to wait on the ethics commission bold investigation because that would take months and run into the session. therefore, the house is going to receive a preliminary report from the commission and based on that report make determination to institute impeachment proceedings. there was -- what he is saying there is without the legal terms which was -- without, quote, paul harvey's rest of the story, you get to take the charges but none of the defense, none of the rest of the story, as the basis on which you -- either decide or don't decide to bring procedural proceedings. that fundamentally is not fair the larger notion of every one of us should -- should be for or

against it. you get something brought against you but you have to have your say, too wait, here is the rest of the story. and so i think that's fundamentally what this is about. we are simply saying look, by all means, we have been for all along opening up the ethics process but opening up the full thing. not just saying let's do the first part where they say there's something the investigate -- investigate over here but called it quits so that the -- the house can go on with what the -- members might want to do from a political standpoint but to say no, let's have what -- they had to say but let's also have the rest of the story as to what has happened and context of the flights. it is telling if you again have 30 years of history of people buying business class tickets of both parties and not once people saying you broke the law. the legislative audit committee in 2002 and 2004 did -- department of commerce and found no findings of any wrongdoing.

that's our legislative audit body itself which is the oversight arms of the executive branch. and so, again, all we are saying here is let's let the ethics committee work through its full process. not a truncated process. and then let's make decisions after that. but we -- when i heard that last night, i thought it was worth bringing to your attention. wanted to do so. any questions from you all? >> yes. you say this is short term in the ethics process. aren't you short-circuiting the process by calling -- >> no. as was explained to you, john, the nature of the preliminary process -- it is like -- again, we are not in the yoom but if you were -- just the prosecutor's case, with nothing from the defense. and if we were just going on the prosecutor's case, then i would say let's just go with what a political opponent said. let's just go ahead with whatever they said about

business class tickets, let's just go with it and ignore the fact that there is a 30-year history with regard to how folks in state government used those tickets and ignore the fact the republicans and democrats alike when they use business class tickets. let's ignore the fact some of thomas' -- one of thomas' own thomas' own subcommittee member himself has used business class tickets, along with other members of the general assembly. i'm just saying there's a larger context that i think ought to be out there if you're going to have any kind of serious investigation. not just what david thomas, with all due respect to david thomas, might have accused or said, particularly if it's accusation in one direction and not the other. >> you called it a kangaroo court. >> that is not what i said, john. what i said was we would create a kangaroo court. and i absolutely believe that if we truncate the process and not let the ethics committee go through its process. >> what are you going to do if it plays out this way?

>> i'll use every tool in the toolbox. that's why we will bring legal action, if necessary. we will use every tool in the toolbox to say we have to have a full ethics committee report, not a piece of a report. not a piece of a report so that people can then say, tell what you, we'll use that as a grounds to begin impeachment proceedings that some in the general assembly have already made it abundantly clear thed like to do. greg delaney said this is something i'm going to file period. doesn't matter what the facts are. this is what i'm going to do. so in that kind of audience, it is particularly important that we say, let's throw out all of the facts. let's not get a piece of the pie. let's throw out all of the facts. >> governor, when i spoke with the voter today, they said there's a commission that meets in a special session, they never actually go out of session. and then they essentially produced a couple different paths. you can either say there's

nothing to go forward on and there's no action. you can say there's something to go forward on, and then amount to an indictment. >> sure. >> and then it goes to the civil process or it goes to the criminal process. that's the point which any of this is released. that's what herb said today. that's the way it's always done. why are you saying it's different in your case? >> because what's bill saying? >> i haven't spoken to him. >> what is the quote i just gave you? >> do you believe that the legislature has been given -- certain members of the house have been given a commitment that it will exceed before it goes to the house? >> this is why i'm bringing it up with you all. >> he hasn't responded to any questions yet about the house speaker calling for his resignation but tamron, i think we can predict what he's going to say, this is all premature. based on the news conference he's having, he said the process is moving too quickly. s unfair. he hasn't had an opportunity to

present his defense. there are accusations not only, of course, of his extramarital affair and how he used state money to pay for personal expenses. he said, look, i haven't been able to tell my side of the story. i presume that's what he will say no matter what anybody says. but the fact of the matter is, it doesn't really matter. 23 f state lawmakers want him to resign, they can pace it on any reason. >> he appears to have a fight ahead of him, despite the growing number of people in his own party, i believe the number is 60 republicans in his state, who want him to step down. nevertheless, he's obviously ready to defend himself on whatever merits he feels his argument stands on. whether he continue to listen to what governor sanford has to say to questions that he's taking from the local media. in the meantime, the big picture rolls on. we are, of course, talking about the president's address yesterday, the response to it as well as congressman wilson. also interesting enough of south carolina and his remarks heard around the world when he yelled at the president during the address. we'll be right back. [ woman ] dear cat. gentle cat.

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welcome back to the big picture. we're following breaking news out of staten island, new york, where emergency crews have responded to an accident involving a school bus that plowed, it appears, into a home. the crash, two passengers and an escalade, also extracted from the vehicle. 25 people may have been injured in this. we're looking at the video as it comes in again. this is staten island, new york. you see some individuals, it appears, being transported to the ambulance. a school bus crashed into an escalade. as a result this crash happened near a home. we're working to get more details on this. according to a witness who was on the phone, children were able to walk off the school bus on their own. the driver may have hit his head but was also walking around the scene. but there may be at least 25 folks who were injured in this. we'll keep you posted on it. it's almost 4:00 on the east coast. in just a few minutes, president obama will meet with key moderate democrats in the senate. can the obama white house get

the centrists on board with the president's plan for health care reform? we'll have that, plus live interviews with two key players in all of this. health secretary katherine sebelius and jim clyburn, who talked about this with republican joe wilson. and should eric cantor, one of the leaders, be on his blackberry during the president's speech as he was last night? of course, much more on mark sanford's political future down in south carolina. you're watching "the big picture" on msnbc.