up. this was problematic. these were isolated incidents, ed. i think what you're seeing again with a.c.o.r.n. is a group that helped thousands of people with foe closures, low income, middle income, people of color. it's a right wing campaign to take down progressive institutions. you saw it with van jones. you're seeing it with a tax on people of color in this administration. i think the stakes are high and we need to step up and fight back because it is a sustained well-funded campaign. this isn't out of the blue. >> there's a place for a.c.o.r.n. with tax dollars? >> there is a place for a.c.o.r.n. it's the oldest community organizing group. it has problems but is taking actions to deal with the problems. you mentioned halliburton. why isn't -- the double standard's at work. this isn't to excuse the problems a.c.o.r.n. has had. it is cleaning it up and it has helped so many thousands. the predatory financial institutions need a counter. >> they do. >> and the right wing needs to

be taken on aggressively if we're going to have a more humane country. >> katrina vanden heuvel. i asked you on your thoughts of the baucus bill. could you support it? 7% said yes, 93% of you said no. that's "the ed show," back with you tomorrow night. for more information on the program go to wegoted.com. "hardball" with chris matthews is next here on msnbc. listen to jimmy. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, the color of politics. it strikes me that race is the san andreas fault of american politics, it's a huge divide right below the surface that always threatens to shake and

split this country in the worst way. the fault line began to show itself in the claim richly enjoyed in the american south that president obama wasn't born here, isn't one of us. then came the wide open arena of the health care town meetings. that really opened up the divide. now last night came this from a southerner who was once president. >> i think an overwhelming portion of the intentionally demonstrated animosity toward president barack obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's african-american. >> that statement by president carter has taken the issue out in the open. republican don't like what carter said. some don't like the signs that are being waved at the town meetings. they are not saying much about the signs for fear of offending their supporters. when they do speak out the republicans are saying they don't like what's being said about those who are pointing to the signs and the sentiments, people like former president

carter. so tonight we force the question right upfront. plus, guess what happened when democratic senator max baucus unveiled his long-awaiting health care reform bill today? all three republican senators from the so-called gang of six decided not to join the grang. they didn't show. a lot of democrats don't like the bill. can president obama get a bill? i'm beginning to wonder. and a rat talks. a former speechwriter has written a bush white house tell-all book including what the president said to those he trusted about sarah palin, hillary clinton and joe biden. just as president obama faces mounting pressure from generals to send more troops to afghanistan, congress wants him to cut more troops, in fact, to bring them home. now what? we break down the dilemma with david gregory tonight in "the politics fix." true or false, the house ethics committee has concluded

it is okay to say on the house floor that people in the state department are half baked nit wits. we will give you never before published things you can say on the floor of the house of representatives. that is "the sideshow." is race a factor. in the anti-obama protests? cynthia tucker is a columnist and kathleen parker from the "washington post." heavily syndicated around the country. both of you ladies, thank you. is it a factor in the anger we're seeing in the faces of these people at the rallies? >> of course race is a factor, chris. you and i have talked about this before. it can't be measured in polls so it's hard to determine how much of a factor it is. now, that certainly doesn't mean that everybody who objects to president obama's policies or health care reform is a racist, but race is certainly a factor. you saw it in some of those signs. >> these clowns that bring the signs out, they have a right to,

free speech. they have a point of view. kathleen, here's the point of view. the zoo has an african and the white house has an african, undocumented worker with the picture there. unlogical conclusion of the people who said he wasn't born here. he wasn't sworn in as an american, so i guess he's here illegally, according to their logic. we've been hijacked. that could mean anything. the zoo stuff, the undocumented worker stuff. let me give you a fact here. in the american south most southerners polled in this polled, admittedly it was a daily kos poll. all right. i'm not sure it wasn't a good poll but it's a poll. a majority of them aren't sure or are sure he is not from here. in other words a minority of white southerners think he is from america. the president. is that race, that point of view? >> i think that is. i think that's another way of saying he's not one of us. that was one of the things that concerned me all along during the campaign. i agree with what cynthia said. you can't measure racism.

so it's very hard it say this person is a racist, this person isn't and to quantify it in some larger general term. >> do you think if you gave them sodium pent thol test they would answer? >> they? >> anybody carrying a sign like that. if it said, you're a racist, and be able to say, pass the test under medical supervision they really weren't? >> you'd have to word it differently. you'd have to say, do you believe african-americans are qualified to lead this country? you know, that would be a question -- that would be sort of an interesting question. >> you are getting to the heart of something. northern and southern white prejudice. zbrouing up i thought the northern white prejudice was we don't want the guy living next door. a man working for barack obama said his biggest fear not obama would be elected president but he was looking for a house. it's funny only in a certain sense. it's true. down south it's status. isn't it? it is about the black guy running the country.

>> i don't know. >> i'm asking. you said something like that. >> i'm going to be very cautious here because i think it's too easy to smear the south and they they're -- you know, it's racist. they are certainly racist still in the south. there are racists ever where. >> different kind of prejudices. is there a particular animosity in the south toward the idea of a black guy being president? >> i don't know. >> here's what president carter said about that. >> i think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward president barack obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's african-american. i live in the south. i have seen the south come a long way. and i have seen the rest of the country that shared the south's attitude toward minority groups at that time, particularly african-americans, that racism intonation still exists. i think it has bubbled up to the surface.

because of a belief among many white people, not just in the south but around the country that african-americans are not qualified to lead this great country. it is an abominable circumstance and grieves me and concerns me very deeply. >> cynthia, what do you think of that? you're from georgia. >> i'm from georgia. i grew up in alabama. like kathleen, a southerner. i want to be clear i certainly don't think that represents all southerners. it is certainly not true that all racism is in the south. i think jimmy carter knows the south very well. he is 85 years old and he remembers the south at a time when race relations were much worse, much more poisonous than they are now. i think he has lived in the south long enough to know, and lived in a very small town for much of that time, to know how much racism there has been and how much racism still exists.

he was careful to say not just in the south but around the country. some of -- i wrote my column today about some of the hate mail that a black congressman, david scott from atlanta, has gotten around health care reform. one of the nastiest most vile notes he got came from a gentleman in michigan who used the "n" word in addressing david scott and proceeded to be explicitly racist in his e-mail. >> justice clarence thomas told me once, we were having this conversation about race in the south he said the first time anybody ever called him the "n" word was in the north. that's just an anecdote, but interesting enough. >> the exit polls from last november. this isn't 100 years ago. this isn't jim crow, this is last november. 10% of white voters in alabama said they voted for barack obama. 10%, 1 in 10. 11% of white voters in mississippi.

about one in ten. louisiana up to 14%. now the national percentage is about 43% of whites voted for barack obama. there is a geographic differential. in all fairness to the region of the south, i went to chapel hill, which is not exactly conservative, north carolina, university of north carolina. it is a conservative part of the country. it became a conservative part of the country, a republican part of the country after civil rights legislation. let's face it. johnson picked that. saw it coming. >> the democrats, actually. >> the idea that barack obama gets 10% of the white vote in alabama, 11% in mississippi and 14% in louisiana and the rest of the country gets 43%. doesn't that tell you? the birther nonsense is a southern thing. in the north 93% of the people say he was born here. and know it. why are they saying he wasn't born in america if it's not an ethnic thing? why are they saying it? >> that concerns me more than the low percentages of votes he got.

how can you possibly believe barack obama was not born in the united states? so what corns me -- >> what are they really saying? translate. >> that he is not an american. he is not qualified to be president. he doesn't look like us. the other thing that i -- >> that is absurd. black people were in america before white people were, almost every case. >> well -- and doing some very hard work might i add. >> yeah. that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard. >> there is a sense he is an illegitimate president. race has a lot to do with that. not everybody because we all remember the -- >> we all remember the whackiness with clinton. >> we are going to talk about this with david gregory and others later, roger simon. later in our "fix." we go to the political depth of this. let's deal with you two. politically this president who i voted for and was thrilled by his campaign and the fact we could elect an african-american after all these years, great. he seems to decide he doesn't like this topic.

he doesn't like the fact we're talking like this now. what do you think? >> it is the third wheel for him. he absolutely cannot talk about race. look what happened -- >> does he want us talking about it? >> i don't think it matters. he can't stop us from talking about it. >> doesn't it bug him that we're talking about it? >> i think he would rather we just talk about health care. i think he'd rather not see the racial element rear its head because it gets everybody off track. it's inflammatory. >> it makes the voters think more white or black. what do you think? you're demuring here. >> i don't know what barack obama wants us to talk about, but it is -- >> does this conversation hurt the chance of getting beyond race? >> i don't think there is anything wrong with talking about race. that is part of the growth process. be open, honest and get it all out on the table. we can overemphasize the anecdotal and make it more than it is. let's head back to january, by the way, when barack obama's approval rating was 70%.

somehow all those people didn't become racist since then. >> what ripped the scab off? >> some of the objections to the president's policies are policy. >> what's this term "the battle?" i heard gentlemen at the lee mansion who were concerned guys and they said they were tough. one said he was mad at me for something i said about michele bachmann. when i asked if we should investigate the democrats. that was her call. look, the idea it's a battle. one of the guy said to the other fellow, a little older than me, one said, let's keep the battle going. what is this battle? is it like the cause? the southern white thing. >> you mean southern white guys? >> people who rallied against obama. >> they weren't southern white people. >> what's the battle about? >> i think the complex was fairly pale. >> what's the battle about? >> it's a culture war, chris. this is the culture war all over again and this time with a racial element. >> i don't agree with that.

>> i think it absolutely is. some of these same folks -- >> i have to say with all due respect, we don't do that here. >> okay. i don't agree with you. >> okay. you want to finish your thought? >> some of these same people were after the clintons in the '90s. remember all that wacky stuff? >> he was the first black president, remember that? >> exactly. race may have been an element then. >> he is pro black. his politics were pro black. that's one reason why they don't like him, too. it doesn't take away the issue. the civil rights legislation in the '60s killed the democratic party in the south. >> you can't ignore the fact that republicans and conservatives are concerned about this massive growth of government. >> fair enough. by the way, we all should be concerned about that. we should all be concerned about the massive growth of government. libertarians don't like the growth of big government, don't like taxes, don't like the government telling them what to do. >> sure. >> sometimes i'm one of those guys. believe it or not.

>> there you go. you racist. >> jour you're so kind. thank you. no comment. coming up, democratic senator max baucus says the time has come for action on the health care bill. but will any republicans sign on? will the democrats get together with this guy with the bill? discover a light yogurt like no other. activia light! delicious, fat free, and above all... the only one that has bifidus regularis and is clinically proven to help regulate your digestive system. activia light. ♪ activiaaa! sfwhen you own a business,g saving sounds good. so hear this: regions makes it simple to save money and time

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alp. get the hair. this is a good bill. this is a balanced bill. it can pass the senate. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was senator max baucus the chairman of the senate finance committee unveiling his $856 billion health care plan today.

here's how "washington post" describes the baucus plan. it would require nearly all americans to carry health insurance while barring health insurance companies denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions. the plan does not call for a government-run insurance option but would set up a system of non-profit consumer-owned cooperatives to compete with the private insurers. with us, ron wyden of oregon. senator widen, thank you so much for coming. you were just with president obama. you know what we don't know. where's this stand? your position on the bill from baucus? what the president is going to do to meet your needs? >> chris, i have a rule i will talk about what i said to a president but i won't get into private comments the president makes back. i and senator bennett made the case for bipartisanship. we think there is a natural opportunity. at this point in the united states democrats are right that you cannot fix this unless you

cover everybody. you've got to have good quality, affordable coverage for everybody or else the uninsured shift their bills to the insured. republicans have valid points as well. there ought to be choices. there ought to be markets. stay away from price controls. we talked about bipartisanship, bringing democrats and republicans together building from the center of the political spectrum out, of course, we did discussion about the senate finance committee next week. >> let's talk about this in a we haven't don it done it yet. suppose someone is making $30,000 a year gross income. they are not rich and providing for a family but don't have insurance where they work. how will this help them? the bill that comes out from baucus where you'd like to go, where you think the president might go? how are we going to deal with that challenge? the uninsured family making $30,000 or $50,000 a year, somewhere in that range, the reality of american life? >> chris, remember, the bill just came out this morning. i have this kind of quaint outdated theory that i'm going

to actually read the bill before i get into the specifics. that group of individuals, people who are making $30,000, if they're a family, they're going to get a solid subsidy under most of the ideas democrats and republicans are talking about. the group i'm worried about is a family of four who might be making say $66,000. now, in the earlier drafts we were told those folks could be spending up to 13% of their income on health care, then they would have an $8,500 premium, co-payments, deductibles, these kinds of things. they would find a hefty increase and given these tough economic times they'd have real trouble. the earlier draft talked about exception from those folks. they don't want to be exempt. they want insurance. they want to protect their family.

$30,000, under most of these bills will bet a good subsidy. i'm concerned we're going to see sticker shock among middle class folks. they're hurting right now. they are going to need more relief. >> who would pay the subsidies for people who make more? going with your arithmetics. 13% of that is $10,000, they would have to pay out, by law they'd have to pay it. they'd be required to pay it by insurance. if they can't pay it, who will pay it? you say someone else should pay it? >> at this point, of course, the administration is talking about supporting a bill that would give those people a big penalty or, perhaps, an exempt of some sort. i don't think middle class folks are going to consider that a financial security. i'd rather have more cost containment. the way you get real cost containment, what the budget office said, is by holding insurance companies accountable. the way you hold insurance companies accountable is by giving people real choice.

you say if you don't like the policy you like today you can go get something else. like members of congress have. the problem with the bills thus far including what the finance committee put out today is under that legislation more than 200 million people wouldn't be given a choice, wouldn't be given the opportunity to hold the insurance companies accountable. i want them to have that choice. i think it will hold down premiums, hold down exposure for taxpayers. that's what i'm going to focus on in the finance committee. >> do you and senator bennett still want to finance this largely by taxing the cadillac insurance plans? >> i certainly think if you are talking about folks at goldman sachs making $40,000 a year in temples terms of health benefits tax free, that's not right. i want them and everybody else to get a generous break on their health care, but not $40,000 tax free, a portion of that ought to be used to try to give a bit of extra relief to the hard-working middle class folks we are talking about.

>> let's talk about the politics of this. you've been in the house, the senate. i have known you a long time. you know the hill. after the arguing back and forth and the twisting back and forth, willby get 60 votes in the u.s. senate for a health care bill? >> i certainly feel the president's timetable is staying at this until it's done right by the end of the year. it's the right way to go. i think it is important for the country to make this a bipartisan effort. if this is essentially all democrats and one republican i don't think you have the national consensus when you are dealing with 1/7 of the american economy. one of the points i made to the president today is that i think he ought to be building from the center out. that's what senator bennett and i did, saying the democrats were right on coverage expansion, republicans had some good points in terms of markets and the private sector. once you build from the center out, i believe you are on your way to, perhaps, 68 votes in the united states senate.

>> do you believe there is a good chance that the president will take your approach? >> my hope at this point is that it will be possible to export some of the key market-oriented principles from our effort into the finance committee legislation. i'd like to see us take some of our principles like making sure everybody has choices like members of congress and include that in the finance bill. one of the points i mentioned to the president today is he always gets tremendous applause at a rally like he did in minneapolis on saturday when he says that all americans should get the same deal that members of congress get. unfortunately, in the text of this legislation 200 million americans are barred from getting the very pledge the president made to them. >> thank you. congressman -- i mean, u.s. senator ron wyden of oregon. thank you, sir, for joining us. >> thank you, chris. up next, the elephant in the room. the story the white house would prefer we would ignore, about

race. that kept coming up in the meets today with the presidential press secretary robert gibbs. so many questions. we'll get to how many on the question of race all being thrown at the white house. they don't like these questions. there's not really any answers. we'll have that story when we come back "the sideshow" only on msnbc. the sea salts of the world vary in color, taste, and intensity. now campbell's has found one that tops them all. it's naturally flavorful. adding it helps us use less salt than before in campbell's tomato soup. that famous, familiar flavor, as delicious as ever. now with less salt. thanks to a very special sea salt. ♪ so many, many reasons ♪ it's so m'm! m'm! good! ♪

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back to "hardball." now time for "the sideshow." first up, watch your tongue. for obvious reasons the rules committee of the u.s. house of representatives has just handed out a can do and a can't do list for behavior on the house floor. here's the official guidance on the insults members have been permitted in the past. you can call a presidential message a disgrace to the country. you can say the government is

something hated, something oppressive and you can call the state department folks half baked nit wits. yes, you can. here is what has been forbidden so far and is you can't call the president a the guidance. liar or a hypocrite. you can't call the president's veto of a bill cowardly. you can't refer to the, i love this one, the sexual misconduct on the president's part. i gis we know for that precedent came from. up next, speaking of that, taking sides. bill clinton has just endorsed gavin newsom over attorney general jerry brown in the california governor's race. jerry brown ran against bill clinton for the democratic presidential nomination in 1992. in a big debate that year, brown did the unpardonable. he brought up allegations of conflict of interest with bill clinton as governor of arkansas and his wife, hillary's law firm, the fapgs of infamous rose law firm. here's a piece of that debate. >> he is putting money to his

wife's law firm for state business, that's number one. number two, his wife's law firm is representing clients before the state of arkansas agencies, his appointees. >> i feel sorry for jerry brown. i served with him as governor in the late '70s. he asked me to support him for president once. >> did you? >> of course not. you know, he reinvents himself every year or two. >> is it true or isn't it true good afternooner clinton? >> mr. brown. mr. brown. >> let me tell you something, jerry, i don't care what you say about me but you should be ashamed of yourself for jumping on my wife. you're not worth being on the same platform of my wife. >> don't to escape it. >> he comes with his $1,500 suit and makes an accusation about my wife. i'm saying that i never funnel any money to my wife's law firm. never. >> what's with the grudge? that was 17 freaking years ago.

are these guys irish? for tonight's "big number." elephant in the room and the white house can't get away from it. how many questions on race did press secretary robert gibbs field during today's briefing? according to follow-ups including the questions, themselves, 18 times he had to respond to questions. president carter has thrown open the flood gates. 18 race-related questions at today's white house briefing. that is tonight's "big number." up next, a former speechwriter for president jb w george w. bush reveals what bush said about palin and what a disaster she would be for the republican party. more revelations when we come back. let's find out what people think

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rehberger. the fbi fbi searched the colorado apartment of a man they say have ties to al qaeda, at the center. police in connecticut questioned 24-year-old raymond clark until 3:00 in the morning after he was retained. authorities carried out a search of his apartment last night. described as a person of interest in the murder of annie le. right now they're comparing clark's dna with evidence at the scene. singer chris brown began his community service in virginia today. brown was sentence to 180 days of service and five years probation for assaulting his ex-girlfriend rihanna. pick in manufacturing activity set another rally on wall street today. stocks ended at new highs for the year for the second day in a row. now back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." another former bush staffer, white house staffer for president george w. bush has a book coming out next week. we have sot excerpts from "gq" magazine. they're pretty amazing. joining me to talk about it, pat buchan buchanan, msnbc analyst and former adviser to mike feldman. you are going to enjoy this. both guys have been on the inside, pat forever. let's catch this. this is an excerpt from president george w. bush's reaction about the idea of sarah palin tapped as john mccain's vice presidential running mate "i'm trying to remember if i ever met her before. i'm sure i must have. his eyes twinkled. then he asked, what is she, the governor of guam? the excerpt continues, quote, this person is being put into a position she's not even remotely prepared for. she hasn't spent one day on the national level. neither has her family. let's wait and see how she looks five days out.

>> it is insightful. quite frankly, astute. political a institusuit. >> he remembered her being an attractive lady. >> where is she from, guam? he knew exactly where she was from. >> i think the president has a -- i think this is helping bush's image. go ahead. >> he had the exact same reaction i had when i heard she'd been picked. >> she was good looking but lightweight? >> i didn't know what she looked like. >> this is rougher. to say the least. this is an excerpt from former president bush about hillary clinton. now secretary of state. he believed hillary clinton would be the democratic nominee. this is the writer talking about the president. he was a speechwriter. president bush thought his successor would be senator clinton. this is his quote, according to this writer, wait till her fat, well, rear end, i guess, is sitting at this desk, he once said. except he didn't say that word.

>> chris, that is the locker room at the country club. that's exactly what that is. it is disparaging of her. and stuff like that. i don't take it that badly. that is boy talk, i think. >> bill clinton and hillary clinton wouldn't mind hearing this? >> well -- >> what do you think of this, mike feldman? >> i fail to find the historical relevance of that comment. >> let's go to this third one here. this is definitely aimed at the democrats again. this is a very funny line. i hope joe enjoys this, the vice president, about joe biden, the washington. the author writes, quote, here's how he describes the president. he paused for a minute. i could see him thinking maybe he shouldn't say it but he couldn't resist it. if bs, bull, was currency, he said, straight faced, joe biden would be a billionaire. a billionaire. >> he said, we all laughed and laughed or burst out laughing. it is very, very funny, because quite frankly, it has a touch of

truth to it, chris. >> it is so funny. >> there would be a lot of wealthy people in washington, let's say that. >> there's one more. this is one about mccain event where mccain's having a hard time scratching together enough people. here is bush when mccain can't get people. quote, he can't get 500 people to show up for an event in his hometown? no one said anything. and we went to another topic. the president couldn't let it drop. quote, he couldn't get 500 people? i could get that many people to turn up in crawford. he shook his head. >> that, to me, is a great med for. here's a guy, was a fighter pilot, f-102 national guard. plane is going down, spiraling around -- >> that's what the campaign is going to be. this guy can't get squat to show up in his hometown. >> i thought it was a terrific line. >> an astute political observation.

>> wrote brought this guy, chris? >> let's go to the next one. here is an excerpt about president bush on president obama. this is a dangerous world, he said, for no apparent reason. and this cat isn't remotely qualified to handle it. this guy has no clue. i promise you. he wound himself -- here's the president winding himself up more. you think i wasn't qualified. he said to no one in particular. i was qualified. >> the guy stone who made the movie "w." this is it. that looks like he wrote -- that is the george bush. >> you think i wasn't qualified? i was qualified. >> i find bush a fairly attractive character, candid, honest. >> this is the bush i liked before the presidency. >> he is a likable guy. >> this is what we met in the campaign. this is the trouble. we picked a guy we thought we might like to hang out with. pat, that's exactly the expression you've got on your face. you wouldn't mind being the next locker over. but we picked the guy as president of the united states

and he let cheney call the shots.