meddling people. still, studying symbols can be useful. i've covered a symbol that explain the entire universe. >> thank you. i have a great cocktail moment for you. an update. if iraqi baseball team has received their uniforms. awesome. they donated the jerseys and the hats and the stirup socks and he go, they finally arrived and they got this photo of the team in the uniforms for us. it is so cool. jerry cohen at ebbetts that i can't tell you how very cool it is to satisfy them worn by the guys. should i point out, if would you like to have an iraqi baseball team jersey, you can by a one from ebbetts field. the even caller part of it, if you buy one of these jerseys, a

portion goes to iraq and afghanistan veterans of america. so happy. thanks to them. thanks to the folks in the south bronx for donating the other gear. "hardball" doctor w chris masses use is up next. listen to jimmy. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, the color of politics. it strikes me that race is the san andreas fault of american politics, it's a huge divide right below the surface that always threatens to shake and split this country in the worst way. the fault line began to show itself in the claim richly enjoyed in the american south that president obama wasn't born

here, isn't one of us. then came the wide open arena of the health care town meetings. that really opened up the divide. now last night came this from a southerner who was once president. >> i think an overwhelming portion of the intentionally demonstrated animosity toward president barack obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's african-american. >> that statement by president carter has taken the issue out in the open. republican don't like what carter said. some don't like the signs that are being waved at the town meetings. they are not saying much about the signs for fear of offending their supporters. when they do speak out the republicans are saying they don't like what's being said about those who are pointing to the signs and the sentiments, people like former president carter. so tonight we force the question right upfront. plus, guess what happened when democratic senator max baucus unveiled his

long-awaiting health care reform bill today? all three republican senators from the so-called gang of six decided not to join the gang. they didn't show. a lot of democrats don't like the bill. can president obama get a bill? i'm beginning to wonder. and a rat talks. a former speechwriter has written a bush white house tell-all book including what the president said to those he trusted about sarah palin, hillary clinton and joe biden. just as president obama faces mounting pressure from generals to send more troops to afghanistan, congress wants him to cut more troops, in fact, to bring them home. now what? we break down the dilemma with david gregory tonight in "the politics fix." true or false, the house ethics committee has concluded it is okay to say on the house floor that people in the state department are half baked nit wits. we will give you never before

published things you can say on the floor of the house of representatives. that is "the sideshow." is race a factor. in the anti-obama protests? cynthia tucker is a columnist and kathleen parker from the "washington post." heavily syndicated around the country. both of you ladies, thank you. is it a factor in the anger we're seeing in the faces of these people at the rallies? >> of course race is a factor, chris. you and i have talked about this before. it can't be measured in polls so it's hard to determine how much of a factor it is. now, that certainly doesn't mean that everybody who objects to president obama's policies or health care reform is a racist, but race is certainly a factor. you saw it in some of those signs. >> these clowns that bring the signs out, they have a right to, free speech. they have a point of view. kathleen, here's the point of view. the zoo has an african and the white house has an african,

undocumented worker with the picture there. unlogical conclusion of the people who said he wasn't born here. he wasn't sworn in as an american, so i guess he's here illegally, according to their logic. we've been hijacked. that could mean anything. the zoo stuff, the undocumented worker stuff. let me give you a fact here. in the american south most southerners polled in this polled, admittedly it was a daily kos poll. all right. i'm not sure it wasn't a good poll but it's a poll. a majority of them aren't sure or are sure he is not from here. in other words a minority of white southerners think he is from america. the president. is that race, that point of view? >> i think that is. i think that's another way of saying he's not one of us. that was one of the things that concerned me all along during the campaign. i agree with what cynthia said. you can't measure racism. so it's very hard it say this person is a racist, this person isn't and to quantify it in some

larger general term. >> do you think if you gave them sodium penthol test they would answer? >> they? >> anybody carrying a sign like that. if it said, you're a racist, and be able to say, pass the test under medical supervision they really weren't? >> you'd have to word it differently. you'd have to say, do you believe african-americans are qualified to lead this country? you know, that would be a question -- that would be sort of an interesting question. >> you are getting to the heart of something. northern and southern white prejudice. growing up i always thought the northern white prejudice was we don't want the guy living next door. a man working for barack obama and said when he went around northeast philly, not that he would be the president but that he was lack for a house. it's funny only in a certain sense. it's true. down south it's status. isn't it? it is about the black guy running the country. >> i don't know. >> i'm asking.

you said something like that. >> i'm going to be very cautious here because i think it's too easy to smear the south and they they're -- you know, it's racist. they are certainly racists still in the south. there are racists ever where. >> different kind of prejudices. is there a particular animosity in the south toward the idea of a black guy being president? >> i don't know. >> here's what president carter said about that. >> i think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward president barack obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he's african-american. i live in the south. i have seen the south come a long way. and i have seen the rest of the country that shared the south's attitude toward minority groups at that time, particularly african-americans, that racism intonation still exists. i think it has bubbled up to the surface. because of a belief among many white people, not just in the south but around the country

that african-americans are not qualified to lead this great country. it is an abominable circumstance and grieves me and concerns me very deeply. >> cynthia, what do you think of that? you're from georgia. >> i'm from georgia. i grew up in alabama. like kathleen, a southerner. i want to be clear i certainly don't think that represents all southerners. it is certainly not true that all racism is in the south. i think jimmy carter knows the south very well. he is 85 years old and he remembers the south at a time when race relations were much worse, much more poisonous than they are now. i think he has lived in the south long enough to know, and lived in a very small town for much of that time, to know how much racism there has been and how much racism still exists. he was careful to say not just in the south but around the country. some of -- i wrote my column

today about some of the hate mail that a black congressman, david scott from atlanta, has gotten around health care reform. one of the nastiest most vile notes he got came from a gentleman in michigan who used the "n" word in addressing david scott and proceeded to be explicitly racist in his e-mail. >> justice clarence thomas told me once, we were having this conversation about race in the south he said the first time anybody ever called him the "n" word was in the north. that's just an anecdote, but interesting enough. >> the exit polls from last november. this isn't 100 years ago. this isn't jim crow, this is last november. 10% of white voters in alabama said they voted for barack obama. 10%, 1 in 10. 11% of white voters in mississippi. about one in ten. louisiana up to 14%. now the national percentage is about 43% of whites voted for barack obama. there is a geographic differential. in all fairness to the region of

the south, i went to chapel hill, which is not exactly conservative, north carolina, university of north carolina. it is a conservative part of the country. it became a conservative part of the country, a republican part of the country after civil rights legislation. let's face it. johnson picked that. saw it coming. >> the democrats, actually. >> the idea that barack obama gets 10% of the white vote in alabama, 11% in mississippi and 14% in louisiana and the rest of the country gets 43%. doesn't that tell you? the birther nonsense is a southern thing. in the north 93% of the people say he was born here. and know it. why are they saying he wasn't born in america if it's not an ethnic thing? why are they saying it? >> that concerns me more than the low percentages of votes he got. how can you possibly believe barack obama was not born in the united states? so what concerns me -- >> what are they really saying?

translate. >> that he is not an american. he is not qualified to be president. he doesn't look like us. the other thing that i -- >> that is absurd. black people were in america before white people were, almost every case. >> well -- and doing some very hard work might i add. >> yeah. that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard. >> there is a sense he is an illegitimate president. race has a lot to do with that. not everybody because we all remember the -- >> we all remember the whackiness with clinton. >> we are going to talk about this with david gregory and others later, roger simon. later in our "fix." we go to the political depth of this. let's deal with you two. politically this president who i voted for and was thrilled by his campaign and the fact we could elect an african-american after all these years, great. he seems to decide he doesn't like this topic. he doesn't like the fact we're talking like this now. what do you think? >> it is the third wheel for him. he absolutely cannot talk about

race. look what happened -- >> does he want us talking about it? >> i don't think it matters. he can't stop us from talking about it. >> doesn't it bug him that we're talking about it? >> i think he would rather we just talk about health care. i think he'd rather not see the racial element rear its head because it gets everybody off track. it's inflammatory. >> it makes the voters think more white or black. what do you think? you're demuring here. >> i don't know what barack obama wants us to talk about, but it is -- >> does this conversation hurt the chance of getting beyond race? >> i don't think there is anything wrong with talking about race. that is part of the growth process. be open, honest and get it all out on the table. we can overemphasize the anecdotal and make it more than it is. let's head back to january, by the way, when barack obama's approval rating was 70%. somehow all those people didn't become racist since then. >> what ripped the scab off? >> some of the objections to the president's policies are policy.

>> what's this term "the battle?" i heard gentlemen at the lee mansion who were concerned guys and they said they were tough. one said he was mad at me for something i said about michele bachmann. when i asked if we should investigate the democrats. that was her call. look, the idea it's a battle. one of the guy said to the other fellow, a little older than me, one said, let's keep the battle going. what is this battle? is it like the cause? the southern white thing. >> you mean southern white guys? >> people who rallied against obama. >> they weren't southern white people. >> what's the battle about? >> i think the complex was fairly pale. >> what's the battle about? >> it's a culture war, chris. this is the culture war all over again and this time with a racial element. >> i don't agree with that. >> i think it absolutely is. some of these same folks -- >> i have to say with all due respect, we don't do that here. >> okay. i don't agree with you.

>> okay. you want to finish your thought? s >> some of these same people were after the clintons in the '90s. remember all that wacky stuff? >> he was the first black president, remember that? >> exactly. race may have been an element then. >> he is pro black. his politics were pro black. that's one reason why they don't like him, too. it doesn't take away the issue. the civil rights legislation in the '60s killed the democratic party in the south. >> you can't ignore the fact that republicans and conservatives are concerned about this massive growth of government. >> fair enough. by the way, we all should be concerned about that. we should all be concerned about the massive growth of government. libertarians don't like the growth of big government, don't like taxes, don't like the government telling them what to do. >> sure. >> sometimes i'm one of those guys. believe it or not. >> there you go. you racist. >> you're so kind. thank you. no comment.

coming up, democratic senator max baucus says the time has come for action on the health care bill. but will any republicans sign on? will the democrats get together with this guy with the bill? this is a good bill. this is a balanced bill. it can pass the senate. ♪ ooh, yeah

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insurance companies denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions. the plan does not call for a government-run insurance option but would set up a system of non-profit consumer-owned cooperatives to compete with the private insurers. with us, ron wyden of oregon. senator widen, thank you so much for coming. you were just with president obama. you know what we don't know. where's this stand? your position on the bill from baucus? what the president is going to do to meet your needs? >> chris, i have a rule i will talk about what i said to a president but i won't get into private comments the president makes back. i and senator bennett made the case for bipartisanship. we think there is a natural opportunity. at this point in the united states democrats are right that you cannot fix this unless you cover everybody. you've got to have good quality, affordable coverage for everybody or else the uninsured

shift their bills to the insured. republicans have valid points as well. there ought to be choices. there ought to be markets. stay away from price controls. we talked about bipartisanship, bringing democrats and republicans together building from the center of the political spectrum out, of course, we did discussion about the senate finance committee next week. >> let's talk about this in a way we haven't don it done it yet. suppose someone is making $30,000 a year gross income. they are not rich and providing for a family but don't have insurance where they work. how will this help them? the bill that comes out from baucus where you'd like to go, where you think the president might go? how are we going to deal with that challenge? the uninsured family making $30,000 or $50,000 a year, somewhere in that range, the reality of american life? >> chris, remember, the bill just came out this morning. i have this kind of quaint outdated theory that i'm going to actually read the bill before i get into the specifics. that group of individuals, people who are making $30,000,

if they're a family, they're going to get a solid subsidy under most of the ideas democrats and republicans are talking about. the group i'm worried about is a family of four who might be making say $66,000. now, in the earlier drafts we were told those folks could be spending up to 13% of their income on health care, then they would have an $8,500 premium, co-payments, deductibles, these kinds of things. they would find a hefty increase and given these tough economic times they'd have real trouble. the earlier draft talked about exception from those folks. they don't want to be exempt. they want insurance. they want to protect their family. $30,000, under most of these bills will bet a good subsidy. i'm concerned we're going to see sticker shock among middle class folks. they're hurting right now. they are going to need more relief.

>> who would pay the subsidies for people who make more? going with your arithmetic. 13% of that is $10,000, they would have to pay out, by law they'd have to pay it. they'd be required to pay it by insurance. if they can't pay it, who will pay it? you say someone else should pay it? >> at this point, of course, the administration is talking about supporting a bill that would give those people a big penalty or, perhaps, an exemption of some sort. i don't think middle class folks are going to consider that a financial security. i'd rather have more cost containment. the way you get real cost containment, what the budget office said, is by holding insurance companies accountable. the way you hold insurance companies accountable is by giving people real choice. you say if you don't like the policy you have today you can go get something else. like members of congress have. the problem with the bills thus far including what the finance

committee put out today is under that legislation more than 200 million people wouldn't be given a choice, wouldn't be given the opportunity to hold the insurance companies accountable. i want them to have that choice. i think it will hold down premiums, hold down exposure for taxpayers. that's what i'm going to focus on in the finance committee. >> do you and senator bennett still want to finance this largely by taxing the cadillac insurance plans? >> i certainly think if you are talking about folks at goldman sachs making $40,000 a year in terms of health benefits tax free, that's not right. i want them and everybody else to get a generous break on their health care, but not $40,000 tax free, a portion of that ought to be used to try to give a bit of extra relief to the hard-working middle class folks we are talking about. >> let's talk about the politics of this. you've been in the house, the senate. i have known you a long time. you know the hill.

after the arguing back and forth and the twisting back and forth, will we get 60 votes in the u.s. senate for a health care bill? >> i certainly feel the president's timetable is staying at this until it's done right by the end of the year. it's the right way to go. i think it is important for the country to make this a bipartisan effort. if this is essentially all democrats and one republican i don't think you have the national consensus when you are dealing with 1/7 of the american economy. one of the points i made to the president today is that i think he ought to be building from the center out. that's what senator bennett and i did, saying the democrats were right on coverage expansion, republicans had some good points in terms of markets and the private sector. once you build from the center out, i believe you are on your way to, perhaps, 68 votes in the united states senate. >> do you believe there is a good chance that the president will take your approach?

>> my hope at this point is that it will be possible to export some of the key market-oriented principles from our effort into the finance committee legislation. i'd like to see us take some of our principles like making sure everybody has choices like members of congress and include that in the finance bill. one of the points i mentioned to the president today is he always gets tremendous applause at a rally like he did in minneapolis on saturday when he says that all americans should get the same deal that members of congress get. unfortunately, in the text of this legislation 200 million americans are barred from getting the very pledge the president made to them. >> thank you. congressman -- i mean, u.s. senator ron wyden of oregon. thank you, sir, for joining us. >> thank you, chris. up next, the elephant in the room. the story the white house would prefer we would ignore, about race. that kept coming up in the

meeting today with the presidential press secretary robert gibbs. so many questions. we'll get to how many on the question of race all being thrown at the white house. they don't like these questions. there's not really any answers. we'll have that story when we come back "the sideshow" only on msnbc. i'm picky. so, at national, i go right past the counter... and you get to choose any car in the aisle. choose any car? you cannot be serious! okay. seriously, you choose. go national. go like a pro. of maxwell house's flavor lock lid. hear that? seals it tight. smells like fresh ground. fresh fresh fresh fre-- that's our favorite part. ...fresh! (announcer) taste why maxwell house is good to the last drop. if you're using other moisturizing body washes, you might as well be. you see, their moisturizer sits on top of skin, almost as if you're wearing it. only new dove deep moisture has nutriummoisture, a breakthrough formula with natural moisturizers... that can nourish deep down.

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back to "hardball." now time for "the sideshow." first up, watch your tongue. for obvious reasons the rules committee of the u.s. house of representatives has just handed out a can do and a can't do list for behavior on the house floor. here's the official guidance on the insults members have been permitted in the past. you can call a presidential message a disgrace to the country. you can say the government is something hated, something oppressive and you can call the state department folks half baked nit wits. yes, you can. here is what has been forbidden

so far and is you can't call the president a the guidance. liar or a hypocrite. you can't call the president's veto of a bill cowardly. you can't refer to the, i love this one, the sexual misconduct on the president's part. i guess we know where that precedent came from. up next, speaking of that, taking sides. bill clinton has just endorsed gavin newsom over attorney general jerry brown in the california governor's race. there's a back story here. jerry brown ran against bill clinton for the democratic presidential nomination in 1992. in a big debate that year, brown did the unpardonable. he brought up allegations of conflict of interest with bill clinton as governor of arkansas and his wife, hillary's law firm, the famous or infamous rose law firm. here's a piece of that debate. >> he is putting money to his wife's law firm for state business, that's number one. number two, his wife's law firm is representing clients before the state of arkansas agencies,

his appointees. >> i feel sorry for jerry brown. i served with him as governor in the late '70s. he asked me to support him for president once. >> did you? >> of course not. you know, he reinvents himself every year or two. >> is it true or isn't it true governor clinton? >> mr. brown. mr. brown. >> let me tell you something, jerry, i don't care what you say about me but you should be ashamed of yourself for jumping on my wife. you're not worth being on the same platform of my wife. >> don't try to escape it. >> he comes with his $1,500 suit and makes an accusation about my wife. >> that doesn't make it true. i'm saying that i never funnel any money to my wife's law firm. never. >> what's with the grudge? that was 17 freaking years ago. are these guys irish? for tonight's "big number." elephant in the room and the white house can't get away from it. how many questions on race did

press secretary robert gibbs field during today's briefing? according to follow-ups including the questions, themselves, 18 times he had to respond to questions. president carter has thrown open the flood gates. 18 race-related questions at today's white house briefing. that is tonight's "big number." up next, a former speechwriter for president george w. bush reveals what bush said about palin and what a disaster she would be for the republican party. more revelations when we come back. if you're taking 8 extra-strength tylenol... a day on the days that you have arthritis pain, you could end up taking 4 times the number... of pills compared to aleve. choose aleve and you could start taking fewer pills. just 2 aleve have the strength... to relieve arthris pain all day. now your card comes with a way to plan for what matters to you. introducing blueprint. blueprint is free and only for chase customers. it lets you choose what purchases you want to pay in full to avoid interest...with full pay.

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i'm christina brown. fbi agents searched the colorado apartment of a man they say has ties to al qaeda. the man is at the center of a

terrorism investigation that led authorities to search several residences in new york earlier this week. meanwhile, police in connecticut say they questioned 24-year-old raymond clark until 3:00 in the morning after he was detained while authorities carried out a search of his apartment tuesday night. clark is still being described as a person of interest in the murder of yale graduate student annie le. police say rate now they're comparing clark's dna with evidence found at the scene. singer chris brown began his community service in virginia. he was sentenced to want 80 days of service and five years probation for assaulting his ex-girlfriend's pop star rihanna. and mary from apparent paul and mary died tonight after battling cancer. she was sfa years old. now back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." another former bush staffer, white house staffer for president george w. bush has a book coming out next week. we have sot excerpts from "gq" magazine. they're pretty amazing. joining me to talk about it, pat buchanan, msnbc analyst and former adviser to mike feldman. you are going to enjoy this. both guys have been on the inside, pat forever. let's catch this. this is an excerpt from president george w. bush's reaction about the idea of sarah palin tapped as john mccain's vice presidential running mate. "i'm trying to remember if i ever met her before. i'm sure i must have. his eyes twinkled. then he asked, what is she, the governor of guam? the excerpt continues, quote, this person is being put into a position she's not even remotely prepared for. she hasn't spent one day on the national level. neither has her family. let's wait and see how she looks five days out. >> it is insightful. quite frankly, astute.

politically astute. >> he remembered her being an attractive lady. the whole thing. >> where is she from, guam? he knew exactly where she was from. >> i think the president has a -- i think this is helping bush's image. go ahead. >> he had the exact same reaction i had when i heard she'd been picked. >> she was good looking but lightweight? >> i didn't know what she looked like. i had never heard of her. >> this is rougher. to say the least. this is an excerpt from former president bush about hillary clinton. now secretary of state. he believed hillary clinton would be the democratic nominee. this is the writer talking about the president. he was a speechwriter. president bush thought his successor would be senator clinton. this is his quote, according to this writer, wait till her fat, well, rear end, i guess, is sitting at this desk, he once said. except he didn't say that word. >> chris, that is the locker room at the country club. that's exactly what that is.

it is disparaging of her. and stuff like that. i don't take it that badly. that is boy talk, i think. >> bill clinton and hillary clinton wouldn't mind hearing this? >> well -- >> what do you think of this, mike feldman? >> i fail to find the historical relevance of that comment. >> let's go to this third one here. this is definitely aimed at the democrats again. this is a very funny line. i hope joe enjoys this, the vice president, about joe biden, the vice president. the author writes, quote, here's how he describes the president. he paused for a minute. i could see him thinking maybe he shouldn't say it but he couldn't resist it. if bs, bull, was currency, he said, straight faced, joe biden would be a billionaire. a billionaire. >> he said, we all laughed and laughed or burst out laughing. it is very, very funny, because quite frankly, it has a touch of truth to it, chris. >> it is so funny. >> there would be a lot of wealthy people in washington, let's say that.

>> there's one more. this is one about a mccain event where mccain's having a hard time scratching together enough people. here is bush when mccain can't get people. quote, he can't get 500 people to show up for an event in his hometown? no one said anything. and we went to another topic. the president couldn't let it drop. quote, he couldn't get 500 people? i could get that many people to turn up in crawford. he shook his head. >> that, to me, is a great med for. here's a guy, was a fighter pilot, f-102 national guard. plane is going down, spiraling around -- >> that's what the campaign is going to be. this guy can't get squat to show up in his hometown. >> i thought it was a terrific line. >> an astute political observation.

>> who brought this guy, chris? >> let's go to the next one. here is an excerpt about president bush on president obama. this is a dangerous world, he said, for no apparent reason. and this cat isn't remotely qualified to handle it. this guy has no clue. i promise you. he wound himself -- here's the president winding himself up more. you think i wasn't qualified. he said to no one in particular. i was qualified. >> the guy stone who made the movie "w." this is it. that looks like he wrote -- that is the george bush. >> you think i wasn't qualified? i was qualified. >> i find bush a fairly attractive character, candid, honest. >> this is the bush i liked before the presidency. >> he is a likable guy. >> this is what we met in the campaign. this is the trouble. we picked a guy we thought we might like to hang out with. pat, that's exactly the expression you've got on your face. you wouldn't mind being the next locker over. but we picked the guy as president of the united states and he let cheney call the shots.

>> in the huge economic disaster, why didn't you guys let me come out for the proposal if i don't understand it? >> this is why women don't look up to male political figures. you're sitting here saying, forget the guy, whatever else, he's a regular guy, therefore, anything goes. he takes shots at hillary clinton's physique, biden's brains. he takes shots at everybody. you're just chuckling. you are going to buy this book, aren't you? i'm not telling anybody what the name of the book is. >> it is a good read. is it not a good read? >> these parts are good. >> it is entertaining. i think it is destructive. okay? this guy wouldn't have a career, he wouldn't have a job if he wasn't -- >> let's get sober here. >> the guy is a snake. he's telling stories out of his -- >> here is the great conundrum. we like these stories but don't like people telling him. explain it. he rats out his boss. we love the jokes, they're funny. >> you and i were just talking off camera. you and i know the lbj story. we know them all and they're very funny.

i would think terribly if somebody had done that stuff. i think you're right. this guy ought to think badly of this guy, but quite frankly -- >> how do we get these stories without getting them from rats? >> the problem is -- these stories don't have much historical redeeming historical value. the fact is the guy -- >> i disagree with you. try to figure these guys out. >> economic stuff -- >> try to figure them out. >> totally clueless. >> he was a guy who owes his job to george w. bush. all of us have had the pleasure of serving the president. if presidents get to the point where they can't speak candidly in front of their staff -- >> this is a bipartisan group, it's always a great bit of fun. more fun back in the old days when everybody drank. it's still fun. todd sorensen got into a big fight. arthur sleszinger says you should always tell stories about the boss because that is how you get history.

he went over, with his second new deal and all this stuff, said you have to get stories. ted sorensen says you never rat out the boss. >> you do have to get, quite frankly, you have to write history. i would write, like, a memoir. tell stories about nixon and how he felt and things like that. but these personal, all of us know personal things and family things that you know that you just don't tell. >> i'm with you. i wouldn't do it. what would you do? >> i wouldn't. i worked in a white house. >> any stories you want to share with us right now? >> during the next commercial break. i happen to think the stories i would share about the former vice president reflects well on him. >> al gore is so boring the secret service code name was al gore? thank you, pat buchanan, michael. up next "the politics fix." the public wants the united states to get out of afghanistan. according to all the polls. here's the dilemma facing the president. the military wants to increase the number of military there. he is being told by the public to get out. hot story here. david gregory of "meet the

press" joining us in just a minute.

this country definitely needs to focus on other ways to get energy. we should be looking closer to home. there are places off the continental shelf. natural gas can be a part of the solution. i think we need to work on wind resources. they ought to be carefully mapping every conceivable alternative. there is an endless opportunity right here.

properly resourced counterinsurgency probably means more forces and without question more time and more commitment to the afghan people and to the development of good government. >> that is admiral mike mullen testifying about afghanistan yesterday. those comments are the big headline on today's "washington

post." will president obama send more u.s. troops to afghanistan? time for "the politics fix" dead serious tonight with david gregory, moderator of nbc's "meet the press" and politico's roger simon. we went to war after the bombings of 9/11. we are at war still, longest war in history probably now. is this a call for an escalation by the admiral? >> i don't think there is any question that it is. the admiral has been clear. military leaders have been clear. there's got to be parody between the mission and the resources. if they're going to do a counterinsurgency, a nation-building effort in afghanistan, the u.s. needs more troops and they're going to be there for a while. the president has an important choice to make. >> roger, that choice is politically packed but it's real. it's not a public relations issue, it's not about campaigning or getting votes, it's about whether this country stays at war at full strength or whether we begin to pull back out of that war.

>> it is real. we have gone from a mission creep in afghanistan to a mission gallop. you heard the admiral say one of the goals there now is to improve life there in afghanistan. we could be there 100 years. the mission used to be is what we are doing in afghanistan making america safer? are we destroying the people who attacked us on 9/11? have we at least pushed them into the mountains in pakistan? have we destroyed their ability to launch an attack here? now the goal is create a democracy, prop it up, build better roads, change the agriculture policy, equal rights for women. all good stuff but that was no longer the original mission. >> why don't we do that in youngstown, ohio, while we're at it? we have places in this country that needs money and economic development. the "washington post" poll says 51% narrowly thinks the war is not worth fighting. so it's begun to -- talk about

creeping here. what's crept up here is the fact people don't like this war. a quarter of the country thinks we should send more troops. roger, that's the question. if the president goes against the base and the left, if you will, you can use that term here, that don't like this war, he's really challenging the people who voted for him. >> he is and don't forget his opposition to the iraq war was the main point against his chief rival hillary clinton, he was in that sense a peace candidate -- >> but he covered himself by supporting the afghanistan war. >> and was that a ploy? or is that your belief? >> true belief. but i think the left in general had a position which was iraq was the wrong war, afghanistan was the right war. they're the ones who hit us. al qaeda hit us, sheltered by the taliban, we've got to resource properly what we do in afghanistan. here he is as president biting off a huge task of counterinsurgency and nation building where we don't have a strong central government that isn't corrupt. it makes it longer --

>> this is the part of politics i don't like in war. the presidents like nixon and i hold this against nixon, not only the bed, dirty tricks, i heard about that in politics. but keeping us in a war that was pretty clear we were going to lose by after '68 that we were definitely in a holding action and 37,000 guys killed because we're in a holding action. without a real mission of victory of any kind. roger, is there a mission that's realizable here in a reasonable amount of time and reasonable amount loss of life? and if there isn't, why are we there? >> i don't know the answer to that. i fear there may not be. i don't know what a reasonable loss of life is. the dilemma if you will is having destroyed al qaeda's capability to attack us in the united states. we are sending them targets to kill. we have lost more people in afghanistan and iraq, more americans than were lost in 9/11. >> what do you make of the fact of the stand-up war where the

actual forces, the organized regular army began to face us. we're having fire fights in there, david, now, that were in real wars, like in the movies. >> and the taliban is resurgent, and these are the people we ran and they can run into pakistan. this is the politics fix, but this goes beyond the politics, the actual policy, general petraeus does believe that certain tactics that were used associated with the surge in iraq can be applied to afghanistan. >> the mission there was to allow in afghanistan to get their political act together. does anyone believe that afghanistan will get its political act together so we can leave like we're leaving iraq. >> president bush expressed to people, he thought afghanistan would be much tougher to get the act together than iraq. >> and the question is will they ever become the kind of country that we're satisfied we can leave as stable? and we'll be right back to talk about the lighter topic of race and why it's raised its ugly head. back with "the fix" you're watching it on "hardball." ♪ ooh, yeah

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we're back with david gregory. david, you first. i know where you stand. i've heard it in your column. you think the white house inside you're talking to the big guys in there. are they saying they want this subject over with? >> absolutely. absolutely. the president does not want to take on congressman wilson and his attitude about government, about him, about race. he didn't want to have that conversation. the president's been very clear publicly. he thinks these kinds of matters

become a circus. he watched the circus this summer, it didn't go well for him. well, it was that, but also a lot of what played out in the town halls, the president thought it was a circus. he's got limited time now to focus people's minds on what they want them to talk about. >> craziness hurts him in person. >> the racial piece, what does that do to him? >> he's always been able to avoid it. >> jimmy carter is describing a world that for 2 1/2 years barack obama and his staff does not exist in america. will we exist in a country where race doesn't divide us? where it's not that important, where we can overlook -- >> where is that country? we thought it was america. we elected the first african-american president. >> how early was it in the campaign when we were having a conversation about can an african-american really be elected president? can he get the nomination? can he win in the general? and now he's president. he got elected, crossed that barrier and now it's can he really be accepted? these are not questions the

white house wants to be focused on. >> we've got about 43% of the country, white people voted for him. >> that's right, he lost the white vote by 12 percentage points, a landslide. it's not like everyone in america voted for this guy. but that doesn't mean if you voted for him you were against him because of race. now you have jimmy carter, he was determined never to be accused of malaise making these over the top statements saying there's an overwhelming portion of those against barack obama are racist. i don't think it's an overwhelming portion, i think it's some of them. but i don't see how he quantifies that and says now -- >> let me put to you. >> okay. when "daily post" polled people about the birther thing. is he one of us? is he an american. the regional breakdown was frighteningly dramatic. most southerners thought he was from some other country or planet for all i know, they didn't think he was from here. that was the geographic analysis. why do most southerners have a