one way on another thing which is the census, the census breaking with a.c.o.r.n. so they have extracted something here. the census is always a huge political issue in terms of how people are counted, who is counted, because it relates to representation for the next decade. so they've scored a little bit here, but this is something that very much animates the two bases of the party. for the middle of the country worried about the economy and health care, they probably don't know what a.c.o.r.n. stands for around that it's not something that doesn't fall from a tree. >> they're picking off the straglers, the people in the administration that have problems. they went after the energy guy -- >> van jones. >> they're going around picking up the straglers in the unit, right? >> sure. absolutely. you see elements right now on the right trying to score political points by targeting

some of these issues that haven't gotten exposure and they've had some luck here of late. >> thank you very much. join us again tomorrow night at 5:00 and 7:00 eastern for more "hardball." right now it's time for "the ed show" with ed schultz. good evening, americans. welcome to "the ed show" on msnbc. here is the magic number, 51. it's time for the democrats to start making some demands. and if they're not met, just go to reconciliation. that's what the people want. now, there are five health care bills of reform. real simple, three in the house, two in the senate. they have exactly zero republican votes. got that? that means nobody from the republican party is onboard. after all this discussion, what are we waiting for? they're supposed to be helping the president solve the country's most urgent issue.

and 80% of the bills now have a public option. how can the president deny that? there is one glaring exception. it is the baucus plan or what i like to call the triangle of death. not your death, the death of your wallet. the baucus plan calls for the government to give subsidies to consumers and consumers have to buy insurance from the industry. then in return, all the new business they got from big insurance going to help them line the pockets of those politicians in washington, and that is the vicious triangle of the baucus bill. that's it in a nutshell. that is not reform, because see, big insurance, they will still be calling the shots. those folks in big medical, they are the ones who are lobbying the congress and controlling this whole thing. but we got a chance here if we

got guts. the republicans, you see, they have a new strategy. just pretend like they would have voted for reform, if only president obama hadn't been so mean. here's what chuck grassley unloaded on today. >> i'll tell you, there's some things that the president has said since then that i took very personally. he gave some speeches during august in which he was associating me with efforts to make this a political document, and with efforts other people in the country will make extremes like on the end of life situation. >> hold, hold, hold it. i'm sorry, senator. are you telling us that it would be dishonest to associate you with death panel talk? >> we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma. we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grand

ma. we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grand ma. >> everybody got that? that was senator grassley at home in iowa. will the real senator grassley please stand up? the republican rhetoric about the president and the insurance reform has been absolutely disgusting. now, the suggestion that the president's tone has been anything like that is absolutely absurd. but grassley was honest about one thing -- >> i've been very candid with the president of the united states, face-to-face. like when he asked me would i support a bill, a bill if there was three republicans and 58 democrats and i said that's not a bipartisan bill. >> there it is, that's the bot tome line. there's no way the party of waterloo will vote for reform to

help this president succeed. democrats, wake up. today, the president once again offered tough talk about his critics. >> i've heard a lot of republicans say they want to kill obama care. some may even raise money off it. but when you ask these folks what exactly my plan does, they've got it all wrong. when you ask them what their solution is, it amounts to the same old, same old. ly not accept the status quo as a solution. not now, the time for bickering is over, the time for games is past. now is the season for action. now is the time to deliver on health care reform for the american people. >> i'm all about it. let's hold it right now. now the president is going to be going out and talking to the talking heads this sunday, right? they don't want to talk about race or anything like that. but mr. president, demand the

public option, because in the five bills, four of them call for a public option, plus the health care providers are with them and 75% of the doctors. plus the american people are with you. you've done all you can do. the president said it himself. now is the time for action. let's see if he goes through with it. forget about grassley and the republicans. the president, he didn't bill bipartisanship, they did. it's time for the democrats to say we are the party of change, we won the house and the senate, forget all the niceties and the governance of what might happen. the people elected the democrats to implement change. now is our time. but what's going to happen? chuck grassley and 39 of his friends are trying to kill reform and scare the hell out of the american people. and if the democrats fall for this, and don't show some guts and go reconciliation, the joke's on us. the time for talk is over.

i want him to draw a line just like this. >> i fully support the public option, a public option will be in the bill. >> nancy pelosi, can you send that script over to president obama? because that's what the talking he woulds need to hear this weekend. we need to get it on. i want to know what you think. do senate democrats have the guts to use reconciliation to get the public option? text a for yes, b for no. we'll bring you the results later on in the show. joining me now is senator bernie sanders, and senator, we're now at the defining hour of who wants to stand up for reform, and i know you want single payer. that's not going to happen, but we might get something similar to it. senator, do you think the white house has the guts to tell the senate leadership go reconciliation?

>> well, i hope that the white house is going to work with the senate leadership to make sure that we have real health care reform that all of us can be proud of and that absolutely must include a public option for all the reasons that you have been giving. without that public option, the private insurance companies will be able to raise their rates and raise their rates. there will be no competition and the american people will not be able to have the choice that they need. to i agree that a public option is absolutely necessary. my hope is, and i've been say thing for months, that you're going to have with massachusetts 'new senator, 60 votes in the democratic caucus and they have got to be firm and say to the republicans, sorry, our health care system is disintegrating. you just can't say no and no and no. we're going to stand united and pass strong health care. >> all right, senator sanders, i don't have a telestrator, but if it was in the booth doing a

game, this is what i would draw up. here we have the government at the top, then the consumers down on the left and big insurance on the right and back up to the government. it's this triangle of death. you have the subsidies going to the consumers, forcing them to buy big insurance policies, and they're going to line the pockets of government. is that not the baucus bill in a nutshell? >> well, in fairness, there are some good things in it, too. >> but this is the workings of that bill. >> but here's the problem, and you put your finger right on it. what we're looking at is the possibility of funneling billions into the insurance companies who can then raise their rates over a period of years to any level that they want, and the federal government is going to be bailing them out and subsidizing them big-time. >> you're saying that the gouge, the grip is still going to be on. it won't be true competition, but we're back to this. why are the democrats so stuck

on 60 votes? because right now if you have to go get republican votes, it's going to get watered down so bad, the base of the democratic party is going to turn on the president. >> ed, let me just say this, as somebody brings in medical care for all, a very strong public option. the issue of reconciliation, you're dealing with a very complicated procedural process in the senate. there are things you can do with it, and there are things we must do. but it doesn't give you the opportunity to do all that you or i want. reconciliation does not simply mean we can do everything we want with 51 votes. that's the problem. but if we have to do that, there is a lot we can do and what we should do. >> it all surrounds the budget. you have to pay for it in a shorter period of time, which means you have to raise taxes. >> and there are procedural problems with it as well.

you can do things with it. it is an option. the better option is to get 60 votes to say no to the republicans and go forward in a more comprehensive way. but with a disintegrating health care system, with a million people this year going bankrupt, with 18,000 people dying because they don't have health insurance and can't get to the doctor on time, it is quite amazing that not one republican has come forward to say, yeah, i'm going to support strong health care reform. that the quite amazing. >> it is. on five different proposals and bills, not one. great to have you with us tonight. thank you so much. for more, let's bring in john harwood, political writer for "the new york times," who had an exclusive interview with senator olympia snowe today who could be a republican that could come over. any encouragement she's willing to move at this point? >> she said some positive things

about president obama to start with. i asked if she considered like many of her republican colleagues barack obama a big-government liberal. she said no, he's more a moderate. she wants some changes in the bill, and interestingly, ed, she agrees with liberal democrats like jay rockefeller, she wants more subsidies to let low-income people buy insurance. the most encouraging signal of all, ed, is that if democrats decide to go for 60 votes to have the unrestricted ability to pass a bill, once they get past a filibuster, they're going to need olympia snowe. what she told me is the republican party drifted away from her. she said i haven't changed, my party has. that tells she me she's not necessarily bound by party identity. >> that's interesting, because

as senator sanders said, there are a lot of americans that are hurting and it cuts to the core of what these senators are all about. are they going to get hung up on what their party is about and what's right for the people. and you asked more about that today. here it is. >> and i've always been a republican for the traditional principles that have been associated with the republican party since i became a republican, when i registered to vote. and that is limited government, individual opportunities, fiscal responsibility, and a strong national defense. so i think those principles have always been a part of the republican party heritage. and i believe that i reflect those views and i haven't changed as a republican. i think more that my party has changed. >> john, not one republican has locked on to any of these bills at this point. are they trying to make a

political point to keep their base together and they're going to break late in the game to get health care reform or do you think they're this rigid? >> most of them are determined to oppose what president obama is doing. but i don't think you can put snowe in that category. she's been working with the white house, she said she talked to the president last friday. she's had a very vigorous back and forth with senior members of the white house staff. so i think democrats have reason to be optimistic to what olympia snowe is doing is using the leverage she has as somebody they need to get the most changes she wants. by the way, that baucus bill, as you know, has a co-op provision, which many democrats consider meaningle meaningless. she supports a triggered public option. >> the only thing about the trigger is who's going to determine when it's not working and what's the time frame there? that would be kind of tough to watch with a lot of people still

struggling in their lives. one final point, john, because you interviewed the president on numerous occasions. is he out to make news this weekend on the talking heads with all these interviews that he's doing because of what jimmy carter said, to get that out of the news, maybe it's time to draw that line in the sand and the president be very definitive in what he wants in a bill. what do you think? >> i would expect the president will do everything he can to deflect talk of race. with all the fights he's taking on politically, i don't think he wants to get in a pro-tracted race discussion. i think he made most of the news he's going to make in health care in that speech last week, but david gregory may be able to get something out of him. >> you can watch that entire interview tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. eastern time right here on msnbc. coming up, the president's

decision to shefl bush's missile defense system. i'll ask the highest ranking military officer elected in congress what he thinks. and new legislation means students will no long very to mortgage their future to get an education. george miller is going to set the record straight. plus, whiney tea baggers go off the rails in washington. i'm calling them out in "psycho talk." stay with us. announcer: trying to be good to your heart? so is campbell's healthy request soup. low in fat and cholesterol, heart healthy levels of sodium, and taste you'll love. chef: we're all kind of excited about it. guy: mmm! i can see why. announcer: campbell's healthy request.

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welcome back to "the ed show." another bush administration policy bites the dust. it's getting criticism. president obama announced today that he's scrapping bush's plans for a long-range missile defense system in poland and the czech republic. instead, obama is shifting his attention to more urgent threats of short-range missiles from iran. let me bring in congressman from pennsylvania, a three-star admiral in the navy. joe, i want you to listen to this sound bite. this is the president this morning explaining his reasoning for making this move. here it is.

>> this new ballistic missile defense program will best address the threat posed by iran's ongoing ballistic missile defense program. we will retain the flexibility to adjust and enhance our defenses as the threat and technology continue to evolve. to put it simply, our system will provide smarter, stronger and swifter defenses of american forces and america's allies. >> admiral, what do you think? >> he should have added just one more word, and at less cost. more capability at less cost. the national intelligence estimate that came out in june said it's not the long-range missile threat it's the short and medium range missiles that threaten our troops in the middle east. the system president bush was going to build, which would be in place in 2017, would protect none of that against those shorter or medium range threats.

by 2011, in only two years, we will have egis ships out there, upwards of 80 they we can move around like pucks on a hockey rink to protect our troops. then by 2017 and '18, there is a four-step phase to have almost identical capability, long-range up against icbm. what a good move by this president. >> so congressman, you're saying not only is it a good strategic move, but it's also a budget move as well? how big a budget. how much does it save? >> over $4 billion is what we would have put into the system in the czech republic and poland. it's easily less than a billion dollars that is going to have this upgrade of egis ships that already have a missile defense system on them. and second, if i could, this

system that we were putting in there, which is going to have the same capability almost on the outside for long range, permits us to deal with russia, to have russia put pressure economically on iran with a hope they'll stop building their nuclear weapon efforts. >> the conservatives are saying we're caving to the russians, that this is a weak move, this isn't a strategic move at all and this is the weak side of the obama administration. what about that? >> absolutely not. they often said that when president nixon and kissinger dealt with the s.a.l.t. talks. this is once more going back to a political military move where this president has retained the same capability, in fact enhanced it to protect israel and our troops out there in the middle east. and at the same time, has a probability of now, with russia,

placing pressure on iran, that if it doesn't pursue a nuclear weapon, we gain. >> and you were talking about these ships that will be able to move around, more mobility. do you think this will force the russians, maybe, to change their strategy on the open seas? what do you think? >> absolutely not. there is no russian navy of any worth today. by the way, these ships we have are already there today. the president is just taking advantage of an already-built infrastructure with slight software upgrade and additional number of missiles. what a wonderful move by this president to enhance our security and protect israel that wouldn't have been protected otherwise. >> congressman, thank you for coming on here. coming up, those nutjob tea partiers are whining out of both sides of their mouth, again. they want to cut government spending but they're mad the government didn't spend enough

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>> >> we got a dandy in "psycho talk" tonight. a little hypocrisy out there. you remember these tea partiers in washington, d.c. last weekend, the 1.7 million? remember what they were

hollering about? here it is. >> we need freedom. >> communism, fascism, socialism. >> talking about less taxes, less government. >> spending a lot of money. >> we're tired of the spending. >> is that right? they were protesting socialism and government-run programs. but now they're complaining that the washington metro system wasn't good enough for them. that's right. the washington metro is public transit, that means it's run by the evil government. which is exactly what these nutjobs were protesting. congressman kevin brady, he's from texas, he sent an angry letter to the washington transit authority about it. he wrote, these individuals came from southwest texas to protest the executive spending and growing government intrusion. these participants, whose tax dollars were used to create and maintain this public transit

system, were disappointed that our nation did not make a great effort to simply provide a basic level of transit for them. well, actually, this summer, congressman, i thought you voted against a bill that would have funded the d.c. metro system. so these folks, who are out there complaining about government spending, are upset that the government didn't spend enough money so they could have their tea party. bubba, let me tell you something, that's nothing but "psycho talk." take a taxi. coming up, house speaker nancy pelosi got all choked up today when addressing how heated the political climate is. so she wants us to all curb our enthusiasm for the good of the country. i'll show you the tape in a moment. and you know how the righties keep saying that the president's policies are bad for the economy? well, it turns out that they may

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welcome back to "the ed show." the baucus plan, progressives don't like it, republicans, well, they'll never like it. the only group that seems to like the baucus plan is the health insurance industry themselves. how about these insurance types, getting up there after the baucus plan was announced, how about that. joining me now is wendell potter, former vice president of the insurance giant cigma. well, mr. potter, i wanted to bring you back again this week, don't mean to bother you too much, but you said this was a gift to big insurance. is this the tip of the iceberg, what do you think? >> i think so.

i can't believe that we've got a bill that is so much a gift to the insurance industry as this is. the only people anywhere in washington who appreciate this bill are the people who work for america's health insurance plans and illegal aliens, because they're the only ones that can escape buying the insurance products we were be forced to. >> with the mandate and with people that can't afford to buy the insurance, they would be subsidized by the government, go over and buy the insurance policy, fatten the pockets of big insurance, who would be able to line the pockets of the politicians to make sure there's no more reform. is that too much of a stretch or the way it's going to be? >> that's how the bill is designed, how it would be implemented. your tax dollars and mine would help subsidize those who don't have enough money to pay that would be required by law, that

would send our tax dollars straight into the pockets of investors. >> we have talked a lot about how much money and effort and how much orchestrated attempts that they've had, a game plan to fight off the public option and anything that would compete against the private sector. well, now we've got four out of the five bills have got a government-run insurance program that would compete against the private sector. what can we expect down the stretch here? i mean, is the hammer job coming? is this the tip of the iceberg? what are we going to see from big insurance the rest of the way? >> big insurance will keep making the case that the public option is dead or dying. and that's why you've been seeing the stock price go up. over the past three months, the stock price of the company i used to work for has gone up 50%. this is part of the strategy to discourage the advocates of the public option, just give up, it's not going to happen.

you will see people will start rebelled against this baucus bill and senators like jay rockefeller, who has been a champion of health care reform, longer than any living senator, he doesn't like this bill and he will try to seek to amend this to resemble more of the bill that came out of the health commity or the house bill. >> but these lobbyist also really be twisting arms right now, won't they? >> absolutely. they have focused their attention on senate finance because that's where the current action is. so they will be in full force, spending millions of dollars over this next stretch of time. >> do you think we could come to the political conclusion that if barack obama, the president of the united states, gets the public option, that he really will have defeated the lobbyists the say he said he was going to do or attempt to do and get them

out of the influence as he said in the campaign? i mean, four out of five, 80% of the legislation has a public option in it. so this is the defining moment now, is it not? >> it really is. he needs to have the public option in there, otherwise it will be a great flip-flop from the campaign. a new study released today out of harvard that 45,000 americans die every year because they lack insurance. there's another 25 million people under insured. he wants a plan to ensure no american will go bankrupt because of a lack of insurance. this baucus bill will guaranty more and more will be joining the ranks of the underinsured. >> good to have you with us tonight. >> thank you very much. for more, let's bring in our panel, todd webster, democratic strategist. jack rice, former cia officer and karen hanredi, republican

strategist. another thing is this rhetoric on talkradio and tea parties, the hateful signs, the talk of racism. what former president carter has been talking about in an interview with brian williams the other night about how there is so much hatred towards the president. it has rekindled a lot of memories of house speaker nancy pelosi. she addressed it today, how scared she is. >> i have concerns about some of the language that is being used, because i saw -- i saw this myself in the late '70s in san francisco, this kind of rhetoric. it was very frightening and it created a climate in which violence took place. our country was great because people can say what they think

and they believe. but i also think that they have to take responsibility for any insightment of anything they cause. >> karen, i would like to get your response to this first tonight. the white house doesn't want to respond to it, so they just turned it over to nancy pelosi. is he being a little too emotional about this? >> there's nothing genuine about nancy pelosi, first of all. >> she was faking it there? >> reporters didn't even know exactly what she was talking about, so they asked more staff, was she referring to the murder of harvey milk, and they said yes. harvey milk wasn't murdered by a republican who was a homaphobe. he was murdered by somebody that was disgruntled.

the republicans are just a bunch of racist homophob, es. this is just a distraction. >> todd, your thoughts, is it political or a genuine moment by the speaker of the house? >> republicans have been running and winning campaigns on these wedge issues of race or 30, 40 years. it goes back to nixon's southern strategy, bob corker won a senate race against harold ford tapping into racism and the fear of a black man. look, there are still crackers in this country, and it's unfortunate, but it's what it is. this is the base of the republican party, whether it's the tea baggers or the birthers or these other efforts to undermine the legitimacy of barack obama as president because he's a black man. the vast majority of americans have moved on and we are a tolerant and a pluralistic society. but there are still politicians

and campaigns that will try to use these wedge issues and drum up race to score points. >> jack, your thoughts on nancy pelosi's emotion today? but also the president is going to be doing a lot of interviews this weekend, hitting all the major shows. and the issue of race is going to come up. do you think he should address it or brush it off and leave it where it is? >> i don't think he can brush it off. what he has to do is focus on what the american people need. he's been very smart when it came to jeremiah wright, and this. robert gibbs said just yesterday, he doesn't see this as a racial issue. i think there is a racial component to this, without question. however, the president is smart to focus in and say what the american people need desperately right now is health insurance reform. so he's going to focus in on that issue. he will acknowledge that it exists. i think he's essentially pushed it away in this instance. however, his focus is the appropriate one and we'll see

what happens. >> karen, a quick comment there. >> those crackers that todd referred to, a lot of those crackers were voting in the democratic primary. you'll recall that president obama referred to bill clinton as being racist. in some of how hillary clinton was running her campaign. >> we'll leave it there. >> yeah. >> extreme progressives don't shoot people, okay, like you have -- >> you mean like the weather underground that barack obama, one of his supporter s was associated with? coming up in our next segment, huge news for college kids today. thanks to congress, student loans will no longer be run by private banks. right wingers are accusing this as another government takeover. it's not. congressman george miller, next in my "playbook" to explain all the advantages. stay with us. i'm walgreens ceo and i'm also a pharmacist. getting an early flu shot is the best thing you can do...

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tonight's text survey is, do senate democrats have the guts to use reconciliation to get the public option into legislation? this country definitely needs to focus on other ways to get energy. we should be looking closer to home. there are places off the continental shelf. natural gas can be a part of the solution. i think we need to work on wind resources. they ought to be carefully mapping every conceivable alternative. there is an endless opportunity right here.

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in my "playbook" tonight, the gop's government takeover. play on health care riled up their base so much, that they're using it again to target education reform. so far, though, it's not working. today, the house of representatives passed a bill that would end government subsidies to private student lenders. instead, that money would go straight to the students. but apparently republicans don't think that would help americans afford a college education. here's what they had to say about the bill. >> this is indeed a government

takeover of an industry. this measure before us usurps even a modicum of private sector involvement. >> this bill is another government takeover of parts of our lives. it is an insidious intrusion into education at all levels by the federal government. >> oh, sound familiar, huh? joining me now is the sponsor of the bill, representative george miller of california. congressman, great to have you with us tonight. >> thank you, ed. >> doesn't this just cut out the middleman, isn't that all this legislation does? >> that's what this legislation does. right now under the program that exists, we took money from the treasury, gave it to the banks and gave them the subsidy. if there's any default, we guaranty that loan. we can take that money, save the taxpayers $87 billion and we could give that money to benefit students and families that are

borrowing money to reduce the cost of the loans, to help the lowest income people qualified to go to college and make campus based loans available to help students who run into economic trouble during the school year. >> so congressman, you're telling us that this will save money, and it will make it easier for students to get money to go to college. i looked at the vote this afternoon, 253-171. you only got six republicans to vote yes on this. what's their problem on that other than the sound bites we just heard about it being a government takeover, what's their problem? >> the lobbyists from the lending institutions have been in full flight, pounding on legislator's doors, telling them they were still entitled to a subsidy. as these banks became some of the most profitable corporations in america, they insisted they were entitled to a subsidy at the same time. we said no, no longer are you

entitled to that. we're going to take that money and put it out on behalf of students who have to borrow money to pay for their education, we're going to lower the interest rate and make sure people can complete their college education. >> congressman, i want to ask you about the controversial issue surrounding a.c.o.r.n. there was another vote in the house today and it was 345-75. and that is to cut all funding to a.c.o.r.n. your thoughts on this? first, how did you vote and what do you make of this? >> i voted for that resolution to move this bill to the conference committee with the senate. i'm not going to lose the opportunity to take those subsidies away from the banks and on a.c.o.r.n., we have investigations going on. we'll see what the results of that investigation in the house are and other investigations, and the congress will make its

mind up. >> yesterday, senator shelby said he thought a.c.o.r.n. was corrupt across the board, that they've been doing this for years, they got problems everywhere. do you agree with that? >> i don't agree with that at all. i think they've had some very irresponsible people working for them that made some terrible decisions. but a.c.o.r.n. has been very, very important over many decades of empowering poor people, helping people register to vote, all kinds of economic activities on behalf of those who are many times disen franchised in this society. but they've made some horrendous mistakes. i don't know whether they can survive it. >> congressman, great to have you with us tonight. thank you so much. >> thank you. one last page of my "playbook." good economic news this afternoon. americans' net worth grew by $2 trillion in the second quarter of this year. that's the first time it's gone up since 2007. home prices are up as well. real estate values rose 1.8%.

that's the first rise in home prices since the end of 2006. looks like the republicans might have a hard time explain thing one. and they might be arguing, having it tough to argue against president obama's policies now that we've got some really good economic news. next up, the main event. i have some advice for the president. when it comes to health care reform, the time has come, lay down the law on the public option. i have a feeling "newsweek" is not going to agree with me. that's coming up on "the ed show." they was. (announcer) it's applebee's 2 for $20.

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i fully support the public option, a public option will be in the bill that passes the house of representatives. >> with a trigger? >> nancy pelosi laid down the law again today. i would like to hear the president have that kind of toughness coming up on this media tour. i want him to say "i support a public option and it must be in any bill that i sign." if democrats in the senate can't get 60 votes, do it with 51. and i'm all for reconciliation. i don't think jonathan alter is. what do you think? >> i am too. i think it's fine to split the bill in two and do part of it through reconciliation. i've got no problem with that.

my only problem is drawing lines in the sand. i don't think it's productive. it doesn't get you closer to an end result. you have to play your cards close when you're negotiating, which is the position the president is now going into. but i'm very disappointed that the baucus bill did not have a more robust co-op plan. if they're not going to do a public option as the president said in his speech, you have to have some way to keep the insurance industry honest and the alternative was a co-op plan, but it's a very wimpy one. >> you've been consistent all along. but aren't we at a new level? all the bills are in. four out of five call for a public option. the polls are swinging his way, despite being beaten up through the month of august. the public wants this. why can't the president come out and say, time for the old veto pen, got to have a public

option? >> because those sorts of threats don't get you -- >> is it a threat? >> in other words, what you want to look for is what can he do that will actually advance the cause that you and i believe in, which is a big important historic bill with a public option. how do you get from here to there, not with going on tv, and making threats at people who don't want to do it your way? that's politics, ed. i'm not interesting to playing to the base. i'm interested in a bill. those are two different things. >> if he gets a bad bill, that's going to hurt his base. >> the satisfaction of being able to be out there posturing for what everybody wants is in a different category than actually doing the nitty gritty negotiating to get a bill. whether you're lyndon johnson negotiating health care or roosevelt negotiating social

security, you don't draw lines in the sand. >> yes, you do. >> none of them did it. >> the democrats did draw a line in the sand on single payer. they threw it out the door and wouldn't allow it at the table. here's the point i want to make. we're at a point now where the people that voted for barack obama have clearly stated that they want a public option. four of the five bills are in saying that. what's wrong with the president telling the republicans, who have not been honest brokers, according to jay rockefeller on this show last night, they haven't negotiated in good faith, let's get it on. we have to get it going. >> i agree. it's time to cut the republicans loose. they're not negotiating in good faith and all these concessions in the baucus bill, they should get rid of all of them when they mark up this bill. but there still are a number of democrats in the senate who a