>> looks like rubin is in the lead. hear come -- that was a bad idea. >> what did you think he was going to say about the chickens? that he didn't quite say? >> plucking i believe was if word. >> plucking as a chicken. >> i think that was the intent. >> i would like to buy a vowel. thank you. absolutely tear paying the. i can see my own life flashing before my eyes. i have a cocktail moment for you. have you ever been tempt to play the bulgarian lottery? >> once or twice. but you know -- >> in the bulgarian lottery on september 6th, the winning number were 4, 15, 23, 24, 35 and 42. okay? those are the winning numbers on september 6:30. september tenth, the winning

number were 4, 15, 23, 24, 35, and 42. same six numbers in two consecutive drawings. >> what are the oz? >> apparently one in four million. i work it out. thank you. thank you at home for watching. we'll see you tomorrow night. "hardball" with chris matthews is up next. is this a white thing? let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews. tonight in new york. leading off tonight playing the race card, so who wants the country talking race? not the white house which quickly distanced itself from former president jimmy carter's comments, not most elected democrats who are quoted today as saying, anti-obama protests have nothing to do with race. no, it's the two extremes. the left, which understandably

wants to demonize its opponents and the far right, which sees opportunity in the fear people have of losing what is theirs to the other guy. race and politics at the top of the show tonight. this debate about race comes as we're seeing a new public nastiness exemplified by the crude and, yes, sometimes racist signs at anti-obama events. today in an extraordinary moment house speaker nancy pelosi linked today's mean national rhetoric with the heat and anger in the air when san francisco mayor richard moscone and supervisor harvey milk were murdered. >> i have concerns about some of the language that is being used because i saw -- i saw this myself in the late '70s in san francisco, this kind of rhetoric was very frightening, and it gave -- it created a climate in which violence took place. >> could today's crazy rhetoric give license to some of the real

crazies out there? it's a scary world out there right now. also, could president obama get 60 u.s. senators to back a bill that repairs health care in this country, can he? most democrats know they need to pass something. will they? democratic senator conrad of north dakota, a member of the so-called gang of six, will be here on "hardball" tonight. and the right wing and its allies on talk radio and on fox tv have claimed another victim. perhaps a deserving one. the house today voted to cut off all government funding to a.c.o.r.n. who and what is next? that's in the "politics fix." and an old-style washington, d.c. good ole boy reunion the other day. newt, trent and bill clinton. is this a joke? that's in the "hardball" sideshow. we start with the role or what role race might be playing in the backlash to president obama these days. former u.s. congressman quasi mfume of baltimore, with the president of the naacp. and drew westin, professor of

emory university and the author of "the political mind." congressman, when you look at this and you try to analyze it, you try to do a post mortem on some of this stuff, the birther movement, the questions about the legitimacy of the president being born in america, the comment about joe wilson of south carolina the other day about "you lie." the signs you're seeing at some of these rallies, the whole atmosphere out there, do you think there's a race factor? >> well, it's starting to heighten to the point that bigots feel free to be bigoted, which is just about the same thing. and we don't need to get that close to the edge. there's got to be an effort to pull back. if you disagree on basic policies, that's fine. if it's a partisan argument, that's fine. democrats and republicans have done that historically. it's just when this new rhetoric rolls in and these new symbols and the cartoons and the slurs and all of that other kind of stuff, i think that says to the bigot, okay, it's all right now for me to come out of the closet and act the way i want to act. which is why during the campaign

i commended john mccain for going up to the lady at the town meeting, which is at the height of all of the escalation saying, ma'am, no, that's not the case. he's not a muslim. he's not this. i think you have to say, we can disagree and fight on policy but let's get beyond the innuendo, the name calling and the things that lead us to a more violence society. >> drew westin, i always thought you were one of the new experts in understanding how people actually think. first of all, do people who are racist in their political thinking know it, and do they say it? >> that's a great question. it depends on what the meaning of is, is. asking the question of whether people who are engaging in some of these things are racist or not, it's kind of like asking, are you in favor of abortion? well, am i in favor of aborting my own children or having been aborted? no. am i in favor of people having choices about it?

yes. and it's the same when you talk about issues of is someone racist? when you get down to things like the birther movement, it's pretty hard to interpret that as anything other than fairly overt racism. but most of the racism or most of the racial prejudices or bias we see in our country now, you know, we've gone from -- from 1964 when less than 10% of people in mississippi were allowed to vote who are black to now when we have a black president. so on that hand, we can't have a mostly racist country. that's just not likely. but if you ask, is there a point at which most white people, for example -- and i'm going to include all of us here, most white people driving through a tough part of town, start seeing the faces getting darker and darker and click that little lock on their car, is that -- is that a form of prejudice? it's certainly an unconscious, almost reflex that people have, and it's the same reflex, by the way, that leads when you scan people's brains and you show

white people a picture of a black male, you will see an activation in parts of the brain that are involved in here. and it's not because people are consciously racist, it's just because unconsciously they have some association with black males and scariness. >> let me go back to congressman mfume. you're the president of the naacp, an organization celebrated for its advocacy. the question of legitimacy, let's go back to that not whether you agree with this president or not, but whether you agree with his right to be president, do you see that legitimacy question still out there? >> i think it's still out there with the birthers who continue to say he's not legitimate, he did not meet the qualifications. but i think in the minds of most americans, most have come to accept the fact this is our president. we have to get behind him. we can disagree with him, but we have to have some sense of unity in our country. while at the same time not giving up our right to disagree. what gets me, chris, i just seen this shift taking place where

the rhetoric has gotten sharper. and maybe nancy pelosi is right and people have started entering the uncharted area where people feel free enough to act out what they want to do. so skinheads become more outspoken and the bigots become more outspoken, and i think most of the opposition to president obama's health care proposal is based on basic partisan policy differences. however, there is a slither out there of opposition that continues to be based on race, will always be based on race, and will always see him just as our president, but as, quote, that black president to which they may not have any loyalty. >> okay. let's go right now to president jimmy carter. this is what he said when he reiterated his belief that racism is behind a lot of this anti-obama rhetoric out there. here he is at emory last night, emory university. let's listen. >> when a radical fringe element of demonstrators and others begin to attack the president of the united states of america as an animal or as a reincarnation of adolf hitler, or when they

wave signs in the air that say we should have buried obama with kennedy, those kind of things are beyond the bounds of the way presidents have ever been accepted. even with people who disagree. and i think people that are guilty of that kind of personal attack against obama have been influenced to a major degree by a belief that he should not be president because he happens to be african-american. it's a racist attitude. >> we're going to get to the more dangerous aspect of that question. what i want to get to in the next segment after this break, but let me go to drew and congressman mfume. drew, first of all this question, this sense you can go to a rally and hold up a sign talking about the men in the white house being some kind of animal, that he's a hitler guy. the fact that somebody would know they can get away with carrying a sign like that

without being shunned, pushed a aside, beaten up, tells me there's a license out there. why can you -- the fact someone would hold up a sign tells me they have a sense of what's allowable now. that's what congress mfume said, and i agree with it. you wouldn't hold up a sign like that a few months ago. why are they putting them up now? >> well, i think both parties are actually to blame for it. i think the republican party leadership is clearly to blame for not ever stepping up to the plate and saying, you cannot do this. you know, we've had presidents shot before and god knows we all remember the last president with two young children in the white house who was shot. so it shouldn't have been the republicans because this is coming from their side. but the flip side is, you know, what the democrats have done in disavowing any relation to what president carter said, no, there's no race involved at all, they're saying something that they know isn't true. >> why are the democrats playing ball with this? why are the ds playing with the

rs in saying there's no race involved? >> you know, i think it's because howard dean is no longer -- is no longer chair of the dnc and he's not there to give testosterone injections to them. you know, i think the problem is it takes some guts to say, look, there is a racial piece of this, and, again, it doesn't mean that you're an overt racist if you're worried about this president, you're worried that he doesn't share your values. but you may be worried if he doesn't share your values for of a lot of reasons you're not aware of and some of them may be perfectly realistic and some may be because he doesn't look like you and he doesn't come from the same background. again, you don't have to attack someone as a racist for that but you do have to call them out for the fact this kind of rhetoric, this kind of language, bringing guns to -- to a town hall meeting where the president of the united states is, where are the democrats in saying, enough to this. let's pass a law against anyone coming within a mile of the president of the united states with a gun. 80% of americans would support that.

>> i wish the nra would come out in its responsibility as a national organization in saying, you have a right to carry a gun. don't bring it to any political event. we have the authority with that group, the second amendment people, to tell them that. let me ask you, congressman, you're from a border state in maryland, you were for a lot of those years. let me ask you about a regional question. the numbers are showing 97% of the people in the north assume barack obama is an american. you get out to the south, and less than half are willing to say he's an american. and the other half are saying, i'm not sure if he's from somewhere else or the other half saying, i'm sure he's from somewhere else. what's the regional piece? >> i thinks this regional acceptance of things which are the norms which most of us would say are not the normal. i think it would be reflected as president carter said. basically this southern attitudes but across the board in all attitudes. i'm kind of old school, i wish we had the days of tip o'neill

and walter cronkite and mr. rogers and howdy doody, we can only stand up so far. we can stand up and argue. but at the end of the day we're going to be americans and we're going to stand up against the things that are wrong. this simply is wrong. quite frankly, i'm surprised my party is saying, oh, no, racism has nothing to do, bigotry has nothing to do with a piece of this. a piece of this is directly attributable back to bigoted attitudes that people share. >> you know, back in the old days you're taking charge of the democrats there. let me say something against the republicans. there was a time when william f. buckley would stand up to those in the conservative movement who were birthers, john bercher types saying eisenhower, general eisenhower was a communist. it's unbelievable what they were charging. his brother milton was a communist. there are those who thought that being a conservative meant being anti-semitic. people like bill buckley said no way can you be part of our movement. where are the conservatives out

there saying, don't bring a gun to a political meeting. this isn't the '30s in germany. thank you. coming up -- nancy pelosi saying the climate in the country right now reminds her of the '70s in san francisco where there was gun violence against two top politicians who lost their lives because one man who was unbalanced was picking up the zeitgeist, the spirit in the air, which is dangerous. she gets very emotional. when we come back, we will get into what speaker pelosi is talking about. the heated rhetoric we're seeing right now that could lead to violence. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. flavor lock lid. hear that? seals it tight. smells like fresh ground. fresh fresh fresh fre-- that's our favorite part. ...fresh! (announcer) taste why maxwell house is good to the last drop.

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>> i have concerns about some of the language that is being used because i saw -- i saw this myself in the late '70s in san francisco, this kind of rhetoric was very frightening and it gave -- it created a climate in which violence took place, so i -- i wish that we would all, again, curb our enthusiasm in some of the statements that are made, understanding that some of the people -- that the ears that it is falling on are not as balanced as the person making the statement might assume. >> i wrote for the san francisco newspaper for years. i got to tell you i know what she's talking about and a lot of that watching know that now, she's talking about the assassinations of harvey milk, supervisor and mayor.

joining me now, gerald pozner, chief investigate for the daily beast, a fine organization and author of the upcoming book "miami babylon." let me ask you, sir, you're an expert on the assassination of john f. kennedy. you and i share the view of what happened there, it was a lone assassin. what is it about the zeitgeist, the atmosphere in the air. the hatred of jack kennedy that may have sprung a left winger like oswald to do what did he? >> you're absolutely right. it's interesting, it was during that period almost a climate of hatred that was created. look at the hatred that arrived, chris, in dallas on december 22, 1983, the day oswald killed him, what greeted him, you open up "the dallas morning news," and in there welcome, mr. kennedy and the right wing organization sets forth their charge that kennedy is really a communist toll. this is a full-page ad in the

city on the day he's murdered. there's a climate, as nancy pelosi said, people who weren't balanced, oswalds of the world, were able to act out violently. and you were writing in san francisco. i lived there. i was going to school there. there's no question that people like dan white, and the people who killed the mayor and went on to kill the supervisor harvey milk were pushed in this type of feeling that you could get away with anything because you could denigrate a publish official by comparing them as they are with obama to hitler and socialism and fascism. >> let me go to mark here. what is it in the atmosphere that allows a person feeling comfortable showing up to a political event carrying a gun, in some cases two guns, and letting people know they're armed? what is it in the atmosphere that a sign that compares the president of the united states to an animal or nazi? what is it that makes a person feel comfortable doing that kind of crap in public? i wonder if it isn't the atmosphere of language being used today? your thoughts, sir? mark. >> i think it is the atmosphere,

the language that's sort of being ejected into the atmosphere. i think that what we're hearing in particular from our quote/unquote leaders, from both political leaders and commentators. i mean, you know, yesterday rush limbaugh was on the air talking about an incident in which black kids attacked a white kid on a school bus, an incident that police said was not racially motivated, and saying that what we need are segregated buses. that this is the only way, i suppose that white people can be protected from black people. i think when we have characters like limbaugh saying that on the air to millions of americans, many of whom actually revere the man, you know, it's not surprising that people feel that, you know, the race war is around the corner and we're allowed to say these kinds of things. >> let's make this connection. gerald, you and i agree on a lot of things. it seems to me a lot of this is atmospherics. a communist sympathizer like lee harvey oswald, who was

infatuated with castro, kills in the atmosphere of a right wing lefty, even though he's a lefty, if you will. what is it that triggers? is it the sense that the whole atmosphere, that this guy is not legitimate, the guy i'm about to shoot or the guy i'm about to humiliate with carrying a gun or a sign or yelling out "you lie," that sort of license that's given by the atmospherics. explain. >> absolutely. chris, you hit the nail on the head. it's a license that allows somebody who's on the edge to cross the edge from thinking about acting out to actually crossing the line and being violent and thinking they can change history with a single bullet, and we have shown time and time again that that's possible. and it has happened again in the assassination of bobby kennedy. it happened also with the assassination of martin luther king, where there was an element -- there was a racial element as well, of course, with king in which he was denigrated. he was called the false leader of his own people. he was doing the march on washington. and somebody like james earl ray

thought that he could kill him with impunity and go on to live in south africa or white rhodesia and be a hero. what you said a moment ago about bringing guns to rallies, i'm waiting for someone in my own party, a democratic party, to put a bill up to stand against the nra to say it's against the law to come within a half mile or mile of the president at any political rally with an armed weapon. if we had been in the '60s and black panthers were showing up with rifles, the police would have taken them to jail. but today they're allowed to bring a rifle right to the edge of the rally, 500 yards from the president, and i think there should be a law against it. >> mark, let me ask you this thing here about the south, what is it about the cause -- we used to hear the phrase the cause for the people who doesn't like what happened in the civil war afterwards. they thought they lost the war they should have won. this attitude about how you got to -- i heard a guy talking the

other day in front of the lee mansion that you got to keep the battle going, the battle showing up at these rallies in washington against obama. what is the battle out there that's being fought by the right, especially in the south, what is this what is this thing out there? >> i think in the south it's a very particular form of white nationalism. you know, there are a great many people down here who truly believe that the war had nothing to do with slavery, the civil war. you know, that it was about tariffs or the north imposing an industrial system on the south or any one of -- any number of other things. you know, this is very much alive in the minds of a lot of people down here, including academics in many cases. so, you know, all of this rhetoric, all of these ideas have consequences. i think it's worth saying overall when we talk about the subject that, you know, hate criminals, people who go out and murder people who don't look like them, are not typically people who think of themselves as criminal thugs.

they are very typically people who think that they are acting on the wishes of the community. they are the brave young men standing up to defend their community. so, you know, when you have a limbaugh or other public figures saying obama's a racist, he has a hatred for white people, as glenn beck said on fox news the other day, you know, there are some people out there, some small sliver of the population who feel, you know, what the brave, young warriors ought to do is go out there and defend the white race, and that may very well mean taking a shot at the president. >> i thank you both very much for joining us on this subject. gerald, thank you very much. we will talk about your book when it comes out. and thank you, mark potok. i think everybody who does these horrible crimes does it thinking somewhere there will be warmth for him. somewhere in the country or the world people will respect and love him for what he did. that thought is frightening. up next -- czar wars. why are so many on the right mad about these so-called czars in the obama administration, and where were these critics during the last eight years? more on that. you're watching "hardball" on

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back to "hardball." time for the "sideshow." first up, nice try. a doctor in army trying to get out of being sent in iraq filed a suit claiming the commander in chief, president obama, doesn't have the right to cut the orders. he takes the nut country view that the president was born elsewhere, that he somehow tricked his birth announcement in hawaii with the notion of getting himself unconstitutionally elected president 40 some years later. well, a u.s. district judge in georgia has just thrown out the case. here's his ruling, quote, plaintiff's challenge to her deployment order is frivolous. she has presented no credible evidence and has made no reliable factual allegations to

support her unsubstantiated conclusionary allegations. instead she uses her complaint as a platform for spouting political rhetoric, such as her claims that the president is an illegal usurper, unlawful pretender and unqualified imposter. here is the judge's final order, unlike in alice in wonderland, simply saying something doesn't make it so. i love this judge. how would you like to be a member of the service serving our country needing medical treatment over in iraq and learning the doctor in charge is that doctor? i guess it would depend on your politics. anyway, next up, animal house. newt gingrich, trent lott and bill clinton. the good ole boys of the '90s yucking it up yet at the unveiling the trent lott's official portrait in the senate chamber. ah, the good ole boys get together to savor the good ole days. those were the days, my friends. newt, by the way, who pushed to impeach clinton for having an on-the-job girlfriend which newt gingrich himself just happened to have himself at the time. but, hey, who's counting? lott voted to kick clinton out of the presidency, only to have the next president, a

republican, george w. bush push him out of the senate leadership. here's trent lott reminding bill of that first encounter of the first part. >> one of the reasons why i think we got along so well, and why we got a lot more than people realized was going on that he we did get done is because we never lost our ability to talk. even when i'd do something or say something stupid or vice versa -- excuse me, mr. president -- the main thing about it is quite often we'd call one or the other and laugh about it. >> yeah, vice versa. hell of a joke. anyway, the room was full of lobbyists. they laugh when any politician tells anything halfway funny. it's their job to laugh. time now for tonight's "big number." there's been hands wringing on the right over the 30 policy czars so-called serving in the obama administration. so how many -- somebody in the national committee actually put out a video narrated by conservative host glenn beck. leading obama czar critic and starring who else? george bush.

>> how many does that make now? we decided to count them up. there's the drug czar. and then there's the intelligence czar, the economic czar, border czar, homeland security terrorism czar, the regulatory czar, technology czar, the car czar, and now the cyber czar! >> the democratic national committee counted up, there were 47 czars, as opposed to 30 in the bush administration. 47 czars served under president bush. how's that for a precedent? will the senate get 60 members to support the health care reform? that's the big question. we'll talk to a key member of the chairman finance committee, leader of the gang of six, senator kent conrad of north dakota. turn right. what is goin' on ? i got my subaru for the confidence of all-wheel drive.

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congressional republicans say they'll fight a decision by the obama administration for a missile defense shield over eastern europe. the pentagon says short medium range missiles are now a far greater threat and the move could help the support for the nuclear program. university lab technician raymond clark is being health on $3 million bail. the murder of 24-year-old grad student annie le. so far police have not been able to determine a possible motive. the massachusetts house of representatives has given approval allowing the governor to name an interim successor to the late senator ted kennedy. it has to make it thank you second vote in the house before going to the senate. and a new report says americans got wealthier this year, that's after two years of decline. stabilizing markets and home values have added about $2 trillion to american's net worth. now back to "hardball."

there are still those in washington who are resistant to change. who are more willing to defend the status quo than address the real concerns of the american people. what can i tell you? they're still out there. we're facing the same kind of resistance on another defining struggle of this generation, and that's the issue of health insurance reform. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was, of course, president obama today at a rally at the university of maryland with the terrapins. are democrats in congress on track to get the job done now? can they deliver on the president's promise? north dakota senator kent conrad, chairman of the budget committee and member of the

finance committee. it's so great to have you on, senator, for one big fat reason -- every night on this show and other programs we try to figure out what the heck is going on with health care. you know. so what's going on with health care? are we going to get a bill? >> i think we are, but, look, this is hard to do, you know. as the president said, there are many who resist change and change we must because we're headed in the direction that's completely unsustainable. medicare's going to be bankrupt in eight years. we're spending twice as much per person as any other country in the world. one in every $6 in this economy and on the current tread line, we're headed for one in every $3 in this economy going to health care. that would be a disaster for our families, our businesses and the government itself. >> so why don't the democratic party -- you have 59 members in the senate. you will probably get another one from massachusetts when they get their act together in the next couple of weeks. you will have a total of 60. why don't you all meet in a room, maybe go to greenbriar for

the weekend. and at the end of the weekend agree on a bill and come back and pass it. why don't you all get together and agree on a bill, ignore everybody on television, ignore me and everybody else, ed schultz, ignore everybody. get together and write a bill and then come out and say, we got the bill, it's done. why don't you do that? >> you know, we're doing that but we're also understanding that it is important to have republican support because getting 60 votes, first of all, as you know, we don't have 60 votes. we have 59 votes at the minute. we have one of our colleagues who is ill, who is rarely here. that takes us down to 58. maybe a couple democrats who don't feel they can agree to a package. so there needs to be some republican support, and we've done our level best to try to design this package in a way that's coming out of the finance committee to attract republicans as well as democrats. >> so why don't you get the 59 democrats, invite 5 republicans to join you, go to greenbriar or

the waldorf astoria, hole yourself up for a weekend and come back with a bill? >> that sounds pretty good, chris. >> i think if you went to saint-tropez, that would be cheaper than waiting another three months. >> can you imagine what would happen on talkradio? >> i would give you a break on television. what would happen when you get together with the moderate democrats and potential republicans, what would happen if you can explain the nub of the dispute. is it cost? is it regulation? is it too much government? what is it that prevents you from making a deal? >> first of all, it's cost, as you know. the packages out of the house were not paid for. it has added to the deficit. the president has rightly said we can't do that. second, some of the packages out of the house -- and i want to

make clear, this is not out of the whole house because the house has not yet passed legislation. these are out of committees in the house bent the cost curve in the wrong way. that is they added the cost long term rather than reducing it. the president has said that would be unacceptable and certainly it would be. so that's rub number one. rub number two is the affordability of insurance for our constituents. and that is a clear challenge. we've dramatically improved affordability in the finance package. more needs to be done. a third major rub is a series of hot-button issues. abortion, those who are here illegally. we're trying very hard to have a package that is very clear we're not going to provide any kind of assistance to people who are here illegally, and that there's not going to be federal funding of abortion. so those are issues that are on people's minds as well. >> well, you know, i used to work for tip o'neill so i'm going to ask you a question. all politics is local. if you had to go back home to

north dakota tonight and sell this to enough people that would make you satisfied that you have done a good job as a representative to the state of north dakota, which you have been all of these years, what would be the bill? in other words, if it was just a kent conrad bill, would you be done? >> no. if it was just a kent conrad bill, i would want to do something that in a very serious way reduces our long-term deficit and debt load because that's critically important for the country. i'd also want to expand coverage, which the finance bill does. it goes up to 94% of the american people. it doesn't cover everyone because, first of all, if you're not going to cover those who are here illegally, you're not going to cover everyone. third, i would want a bill that has major incentives to move in the direction of the systems that we know that work. mayo clinic, cleveland clinic, geisinger up in pennsylvania, where you're from, chris, inner mountain out in utah. we've got to have major incentives to move in the direction of those systems that are high quality and low cost,

and we're doing that in the finance package. >> what do you say to the young person who feels lucky? and you know when we were both young, we all felt lucky. we didn't need insurance. we would have probably not wanted car insurance if we didn't have to when we were 16. but you had to. your parents made you. the law made you. what do you say to the 24-year-old boy -- because it's the guy who feels lucky -- i don't need insurance. i'm healthy as hell. i don't want to pay a nickel for it. i want to go bartend or teach skiing somewhere. i don't want to join the standard go to office job. i don't want to pay nothing. but i want to be taken care of if i get into a bicycle accident or motor bike accident. what do you say to that person in a free country? i don't want to wear a helmet. what do you say to that person? >> we're going to say to them, look, you know, we're going to have a plan that is low cost. we're going to call it a young invincibles plan for those who are 25 and younger that will be very low cost that will have a catastrophic coverage so if god forbid they do get in that

traffic accident or have some other tragedy occur that they'll have coverage so their bills don't get laid on all of the rest of us. >> what happens if they say no, i don't want to do it? >> then there's going to be a penalty, modest penalty but nonetheless a penalty. for those who are below 300% of poverty, that penalty would be $750 a year. >> what about the family who can't make long-term decisions, think about feeding the family that friday night and just can't get past thinking ahead. and they don't want to buy health insurance. they don't want to think ahead. even if it's affordable. what do you do to those people? >> if it's affordable -- >> and they don't want to buy it. >> they're going to have a penalty apply. for those above 400% of poverty, which is $88,000 a year, there would be a penalty of $950 a person a year. and, you know -- >> it's a hard thing for some people. >> there has to be shared responsibility here. because those who don't have coverage, all of the rest of us are paying because those people

do get treatment. they get it in the most expensive setting. they get it in the emergency room. they often get it too late in the disease state to fight the disease effectively, but all of the rest of us who do have coverage are on average paying $1,000 more a year because of those who could afford it who don't. >> senator conrad, i want what you want. i hope you make it. i hope you get to 60 votes. i hope there are some republicans in the group. i hope it gets done. i hope this country has a better health care system next year than it's got now. good luck with a very important program. >> thank you. up next, can house speaker nancy pelosi be right? can today's nasty rhetoric out there that has such an ethnic factor about the president not really being the president and talk like that and signs that you see out there, are they really dangerous? we'll be back with "the fix" next, the "politics fix" next on msnbc's "hardball." um bill-- why is dick butkus here? i hired him to speak. a lot of fortune 500 companies use him. but-- i'm your only employee. we're gonna start using fedex to ship globally--

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we're back with the "politics fix" and "the washington post".com. and chris cillizza. and jonathan martin. weren't you on some type of skype today? you looked like some sort of prisoner. you looked like you were incarcerated. >> that's the look i was going for, chris. >> let me start with you, chris. this thing about race. we all grew up in america. we know it as part of our history and it's not always been a good part but it's there. it colors some of our politics to be honest. but does the white house not want this to be a topic? >> yes, they don't want it to be a topic, chris. look, it is a continuation from

the campaign. barack obama ran very much as a sort of post racial candidate. obviously, everyone knew if he was elected, he would be the first african-american president. but he very rarely put that piece of his history out front. he did when pressed, when he had to, obviously, the jeremiah wright situation. remember, they downplayed that for quite some time until it became clear he could not downplay it. he addressed it in a very eloquent speech. but he did not want to talk about this. they see it as a no-win situation. they know they're in a very difficult fight about health care. and they know they need all of the troops sort of rally behind health care. they don't need people splintered over race, a.c.o.r.n., health care, all of these other things. they want to keep people focused on health care because that's probably the only way they're going to get it passed. >> jonathan, why does it hurt to have democrats on the left, if you will, on television or elsewhere on radio, blasting the right for having racial motives, how does it hurt the politics? >> chris, for the reason that chris just mentioned, because it's a process issue.

if that becomes the topic du jour, if obama and his folks engage that issue, nothing else gets through. that becomes the discussion. you have president obama going on these five talk shows this sunday. if he had engaged the issue, chris, that would have been the topic of conversation on those shows. race in america. he would not have been able to get a word in edgewise about health care. they know in the news media, we love the issue of race. if they engage it, it is from there, that's it. >> here's the mousetrap. and then jonathan, he is doing those interviews on tape tomorrow afternoon. all five of them. all the anchors including david gregory and the rest. i'm sure we'll bring up that topic. how does he avoid doing it? and having at this time major item out of though interviews. >> i hate to say it. he probably tries to make race as boring as he possibly can.

's it because you're right. it will be a question. but he wants to, you want to's it and move. on it is like any political campaign, chris. you take things you don't want to talk about. if it gets to the point, you's it and immediately pivot to what you want to talk about. my guess, he will handle it by saying, we know race is an issue in this country. i've dealt with it in my campaign. i've dealt with it my entire life but rate now this is a distract. we need to get back to health care because that's what the average american cares about. that's proenl the road he go down. the more he talks about it, the more we'll talk about it. the more he'll have to talk about it. >> jonathan, your thought on that. when he does those interviews for sunday. >> he says, somewhat to the if he can of, i don't see race as being the driving factor in these attacks. what the american people want to hear about is not this but about x, y and z. being about health care, energy. his agenda. he also made his party on

message. jimmy carter will say what he will but the speaker of the house, nancy pelosi talking about some of the more vociferous attacks and some of the political bloodshed there. that's not helping the cause of president obama trying to steer the conversation away from the issue of race. >> we'll come back and talk about a.c.o.r.n. the house voted overwhelmingly, included 1 sfa to 175 among democrats to cut off all funding. but it cut off all money to a.c.o.r.n. i think that is pretty clear on that part of the ethnic front. that group really looks bad right now for giving advice in some cases to a halfbacker and a pimp looking for a place to live and a place to set up shop. we'll satisfy what that does politically. my digestive system didn't always behave.

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we're back for more of the politic fix. this isn't a cartoon but sounds like one. a couple people posing as a prostitute and her helper, pimp, if you will, walked into an a.c.o.r.n. headquarters and asked for help in finding housing and a place to set up their business. well, that video has caused a firing by a.c.o.r.n. of those people involved and also today the vote by the congress by

345-75 to cut off the somewhat limited funding of a.c.o.r.n. by the federal government. your thoughts first, chris? >> this is not a great issue for any politician, certainly any democratic politician. look, it's not surprising to me that cutting off funds went past overwhelmingly on a bipartisan measure in the house and the senate. i think that democrats would do well to distance themselves from it. look, a.c.o.r.n. has long been a touchstone for conservatives who have taken with the way they register voters. this video is damning. i don't think republican there's let it go with these two votes in the house and senate. i got an e-mail from john cornyn, calling on senate majority leader harry reid to open an investigation into a.c.o.r.n. republicans think they have something here. >> they smell blood. >> and they're going to stick to it. >> you're not sure? >> i'm not sure what the

political benefit here is for republicans. some folks in the conservative movement who have been long consumed with this. i was on the campaign last year, they were trying to push this and push this and try obama to a.c.o.r.n. i'm just not sure that the broader electorate, average americans in america have a clue what a.c.o.r.n. is or how it impacts the country or their community. maybe for now they can get some short-term benefit. in the long term i'm not sure the obsession with a.c.o.r.n. helps them politically. >> my hunch is that it's a way to go after poor, black people and their representation in tough neighborhoods where they do have needs and where they can be portrayed as people just whining and people trying to get federal dollars. it's a great opportunity for conservatives, especially glenn beck and the others, and he sees this as an opportunity to basically stick the pig, right? >> well, chris, for -- >> they know what they're doing because they're getting an audience from this.