taping interviews that will appear on the sunday shows, including nbc's "meet the press." and we should be getting a clip later this afternoon from david gregory's interview with the president. also tomorrow, the conservative value voters summit that you guys have been talking about this afternoon will continue for another day. speeches will include ones from house minority leader john boehner as well as mitt romny, who might give it a run in 2012. finally another story to be watching next being. the massachusetts legislate surbusy working on changing the state law to allow for a temporary appointment to fill ted kennedy's old senate seat that would enable democrats to have 60 seats. the "boston globe" reported that the democrats might get their 60th senate seat as early as next week. >> all right. mark murray. all important information. thanks. make sure to check out first read first thing every morning.

check back often. logon to first read.msnbc.com. >> that's "the big picture" for today. i'm monica novotny. >> up next, "hardball" with the every investigatent chris matthews. a lot of important information ahead. that starts right now here on msnbc. >> friday night fight. let play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington leading off tonight, the old american problem. from the moment joe wilson shouted out you lie at obama, the country has been in an uneasy conversation about race. is it about race or is it not that black and white? our colleague, gene robinson put it this way in his column in the

"washington post" today. i look forward to the day when we can look past race burk before we can do so, we need to look at race and see it clearly. we'll look at president obama, at race and america at the top of the show. also president obama's decision to scrap the ant missile system in eastern europe has republicans, you can predict this, cow towing to russia. robert gates played a large role in that decision. who is being smart about this? and who is not? that's our debate tonight. plus, look who is talking. there will be no one missing the president this weekend. he's on five sunday shows, plus letterman on monday. is he overexposed or is he smart? as long as he has his health carafate out there, the need to be seen fighting to bring the economy back circumstance rate to be out there on stage? that's the big question. we'll ask david gregory, moderator of "meet the press" with his interview he just tape late this afternoon with

president obama with his insights on what the president is thinking. that will be in the politics fix tonight. and finally, saturday night slif back with its wondrous version of the republican strategy session. at least the one they imagined before that "you lie" out burst. >> right here. here, somewhere in the middle. here it is. he is going to say this. the reforms i'm proposing would not play to those who are here illegally. okay? now when he says that, all of us, all at once, together, are going to yell "you lie!" >> he's so good at that. at catching that republican atmosphere. more on that on "the side show." more on the right. douglas brinkley is of course a great presidential historian. his new book is the wilderness warrior about teddy roosevelt. a big seller now. and melissa harris lace well is

a professor on african-american history at princeton. great to have you both on and this is friday afternoon. i'm going to cool it a bit myself and listen to both of you. because i do find it interesting -- i mean it, i may not it, i mean it, melissa. here's what david brooks wrote in the new york time. obama's movement includes urban politicians, hollywood donors and information age professionals. in his first few months, he has fused federal power with wall street, the auto industry, the health care industries and the energy sector. given all this it was guaranteed that he would spark a populace back lash and it was guaranteed this back lash would be ill mannered. could not spaer or theial and over the top, since these movements are always that way, whether they are led by huey long, father coughlin or anyone else. i want to know what you think of that, melissa.

this isn't that he is african-american or that he has this african name, barack obama but that he represents the sort of a new tide, the cultural, well, elite if you will. >> i certainly think that david blacks as normal has hit something very important here. that is that african americans are not the only group of people against wham there have been populist movements, regardless of who was the president who introduced these kinds of changes, you are going to see important and organized conservative back lash. especially around health care. there was highly effective back lash around health care reform against the clintons. the last time i check, they're not only white but southern and white. that that, i think what brooks misses in that arresting autumn argument is that from our very earliest time, as a country, the sort of effort against whether

it is the french or the irish or indigenous peoples or african-americans, they've often been framed as simply about values or about americanness. but they've still had this ethnic chauvinism at their root. >> so his name was joe brown, a common american name. something as african as barack obama, would he be getting this nativeness attack on him? the birther thing, all that stuff about not being one of us. >> that's the frame that is available. he is not only black but he is black and the child of an african student who was here in the united states had a married a white woman. all those things are used as part of his narrative to get elected, can now be de employed against him. but at the same time, i certainly think that the key hear is that if he were black and not bringing about significant social change, then

i suspect the conservatives would not be particularly upset. in other words, if he were, say, clarence thomas, he wouldn't be getting these sorts of arguments. it is an intersection between his race and his progressivism. >> let's go with douglas brinkley on that question. you know the whole history. your historian role come into play hear. if hillary clinton or john kerry or al gore, one of the recent democratic nominees, almost presidential candidates, had won the presidency and they were pushing the exact same program as barack obama right now, would they have people charging that they weren't born in the united states? would they have people -- would there be people saying you lie? would they be bringing guns to rallies? >> no, i think the the whole climate, the political climate has been charged. take hillary clinton, for example, they went after her pretty hard back in 1993.

and the rammers about bill clinton started coming, and vince foster. it got pretty dirty. i think you're seeing a popular back lash and nativist back lash. a real fear of too large a federal government. what made congressman wilson suspect, made me suspect him as perhaps as a racist, his flare-up. he short-circuited and shouting about getting medical. now dark skinned peel from mexico might get health care with an african-american president saying it. it was almost like the two, the cobble of the two made him short circuit and say that. and his background of being a promoter of the confederate flag, which is becoming a shrinking base. it makes the south look bad. most southerners aren't looking for a confederate flag. he is part of a very hard states rate. southern kind of back lash against minorities in may view,

if he is masquerading as a conservative republican, when really, he has a great deal of dean is phobia, and i'm afraid bigotry on him. >> why is it that the south is so strong on this skept civicis about american birth. >> >> the south is still wrapped in a 7th anxiety that's unfortunately, go all the way back to the civil war. i gras up in the south, i grew up in virginia and was taught that the civil war was the war of northern aggression. that the period after reconstruction was a time of redemption. so i'm not that old. for that to have been the language in the public schools while i was coming through is indicative of the fact the south is still struggling. demand, i think we would be absolutely wrong to imagine that racism exists only in the south and i think we would be silly to forget that barack obama won this election carrying virginia and north carolina. he carried them in part because

of the demographics in the south have changed dramatically. it was a southeast asian vote in northern virginia, growing latino vote in north carolina, which made an' enormous difference for barack obama but also raised the anxieties of some white southerners living there, although not all white southerners. >> i would argue another point. the arraign they went for barack obama is the brilliant decisions made 50 years ago in terms of your education system. i went to chapel hill. let me ask doug brinkley about that. i think a lot of this is class and education levels. the people with the phds aren't attacking barack obama. >> let's be clear. this all should be about health care rate now. i think the wilson is a side show. the mead can get carried away. i'm hoping we won't spend the next three years every time there is a racially charged moment, it will be the dominant

theme. it will happen a lot. we do have an african-american president. you turn on tvs and you you're looking at a.c.o.r.n. being raised to the front burner for top news because it is a community organizing group with their hands caught in the cookie jar and worse. >> i think it is worse. subsidizing -- go ahead. >> it is a big story and it is real but those kinds of things are getting tied to barack obama. and race played some sort of part of it. i do a lot of american history. it is hard to find a decade where race doesn't fall into play. i'm kind of race fatigued. i'm hoping every time some moment happens, including wilson, it doesn't become just about race. >> okay. i want to ask you both to finish up on this. it seam you can't call racism unamerican because it is part of our past history and part of our present history. it is not something knew. it is something we gras up with. it is in the constitution as we grew up. with we all know that racial

distinction. let me ask you this question. is the glass half full under barack obama or half empty? >> well, i much prefer racism that has an african-american president, a attina on the supreme court, and frankly, white commentators and white men with television shows who are so anxious about the idea of racism that they want to talk about it. so this is about the best form of american racism i've ever seen. compared to jim crow, lynching, slavery, the history of racial terrorism in america. so i think we're well better than half full. but certainly not all worked out. it is funny to me that typically, white americans say they have racial fatigue. black folks live with. this we're not that surprised by it but we still love our country. and are prepared to think about what our future can look like. >> do you think some of this was started because of the confluence, it is close to the skin.

literally. you're afraid you will lose your health care. henry louis gates incident where the president sort of took sides ethnically, it look like to a lot of people. the sotomayor nomination, a wise latina statement. that it gave permission for this discussion? >> and the obama administration, not clearly presenting a health care plan back in april or may before the long summer that people could understand. the obama administration gave an opening for this kind of town hall raves. the strategy of disrupting it was part of the republican gop strategy book. remember when mccain ran for president, he was pushing hard for town hall meetings just so they could have these kinds of moments. so from a pure strategic point of view, i think the obama administration has allowed an opening. they've exposed a weak underbelly of the administration. the right is taking advantage of it and now you have a president this coming weekend that has to

do all the tv shows and go on letterman and he is selling from a difficult position right now. he is not selling from strength. he is selling from a point of last-minute nerve-racking weakness. >> the great thing about doing this show sgrk thank you for that comment toward mexico i know that was directed at me. one of the great thing is having folks like you on the show. melissa is from princeton. up there with cornell, my buddy. thank you for coming on the show. and good luck on the book. it is great to see one book on the best sieller list that is worth reading. and yours is. let your respected friends see you read aing. republicans aren't happy about president obama's de significance. democrats say it will make a difference.

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to put it simply, our new missile defense system in europe will provide stronger, smarter and swifter defenses. >> welcome back. that was of course president obama laying out his plan to change missile defense strategy in europe. he did that today to counter the threat from iran. but criticism from the right came quickly. let's listen. >> this decision was obviously

rushed. the polish prime minister, according to news reports, was called at midnight. the decision to abandon the missile defense sites in poland and the republic. i might add that member of congress were not briefed on this decision. >> today secretary of state hillary clinton defended the decision and emphasized the u.s. is not throwing eastern european allies under the bus. lets listen to the secretary of state. >> we would never, never walk away from our allies. we are deploying a system that enhances the security of our nato allies. two of our allies, poland and the czech republic were willing to host part of that plan and we deeply appreciate it. >> joining me now from pennsylvania, and congressman from high hey. both are members of the house armed services commit yeah.

congressman, make in have the case for why we should change the deployment to the more mobile approach facing in fact, focusing on the medium range missiles, rather than the icbms. >> the estimates that calm out in june said the long range missile threat is some time distant in the future. right now there is a short and medium range threat from iran and the missile that's they are increasing in production. so what we have is, our troops in the middle east, israel and southeastern europe, including turkey, even when the bush administration's plan by 2017 to put the gbis, ground based interceptors, in the czech republic and polanpoland, won't cover any of that threat. so by doing, that we will have immediately an ability to protect our troops, israel, and

southeastern europe. as that capability develops, there is an upgrade that gives as good a capability as the ground based interceptors would do in europe, around israel, the middle east and almost gas to the united states. then you can pivot and say to russia, how about helping us diplomatically and with economic sanctions on iran that would force it not to produce a nuclear weapon. what a great, great plan. >> what is your problem with the president's decision? >> the problem is that he is creating a false choice. he is saying that short range and medium range missiles must be dealt with immediately. therefore we can't address the issue of icbms and the concerning threats to the universiunited states. that isn't where we ought to be. the plan -- >> do they have icbms? >> well, every intelligence

estimate indicates by 2015, they will have the capability of icbms. that's the current intelligence estimates them could accomplish that much quicker. the plan the president has put on the table doesn't affect the united states until 2020. the plan he just scrapped would have affected the united states by 2013. and it was the most cost effective plan. i'm the ranging member of the committee received a briefing at the beginning of the year. this is the unclass fade version. the most cost effective system, the one that would have protected the united states by 2013 and that was most cost effective, compared to the ship system, was the one that the president just scrapped. cost effectiveness and protecting the president earlier. >> let me get back. the question here is our relationship with putin. every has told me, if we're going to put the cap on the nuclear potential of iran.

how does that sit with that goal? this redeployment? >> the administration has based this on the technical feasibility. the study which i read that mike mentioned actually won't be implemented until 2017. it was based upon starting this some five years ago. that's why the study is out of date. but we're now able to say to russia that, look, no longer do you have this stick in your eye. although the united states has the same capability, putting that in. so therefore, you can help us have economic sanctions. diplomatic sanctions with iran because they've helped them on the nuclear reactor business. now we need them to close the land route economically if we are to apply soongsz iran. if it does continue to pursue its nuclear capability. this is the use of our military and a political military way. and it does give us the same

capability, actually much more immediately. >> isn't this a question of fighting the new war against iran than fighting the old war against russia? are we in danger of being attacked by russia in any way? >> perhaps they should reread this report. it says it is intended to be operational by 2012, 2013, and provide full tame coverage. i've asked secretary gates to release the classified version. it is 2013. that's the real important issue. the president is scrapping a program that would have provided protection for the united states from icbms by 2013. the intelligence estimates currently say 2015. iran could do it quicker. 2015, the president comes one a plan in 2020. clear lay five-area gap and says i'll be doing it quicker. >> we just got a report. i got it from reuters. that the russian president is pleased by there. the fact they are listening to us is an obvious signal that we should also attendant you have

thely listen to our partners. what is wrong with getting better relations with the former soviet union? >> nothing wrong with having good relations with russia. the problem is that it shouldn't come at the expense of the defense of the united states. >> i'm trying to get -- let me go to you. who are you afraid of? the iranians or the russians in terms of missile attack? who is our primary threat? >> i would be much more concerns about the iranians. that's why we want to get immediate capability out there. if i could, michael. if i could. the problem is it doesn't take into account, this is assuming signed ratifications with the czechs. a sand supplementation agreement. and a requirement that nothing can be built until the two states' gbi is tested.

that won't be until 2012. 2017 before you can even do that. >> you can't deny the president said, it is rate up on the white house website. with respect to russia, you have to understandful this is a defensive system. russia is requesting that we abandon a defensive system. why would they do that? i don't know. but i don't think they have asking us to abandon a defensive system is in our best interests. >> why do you think they want us to do that. >> one thing is for certain. when they ask us to abandon a defensive system, they're looking to their offensive systems. we're entering negotiations by concession by this president up front where he has received nothing for that. historically, no indication ever that conceding to russia early is going to get you greater concessions later. now having a good relationship with russia is important. but for what end? they certainly have not supported with us respect to iran and stoong--

>> periodically indicated -- >> willing to be influenced. >> i guess we see things differently. >> willing to be influence asked russia has shown no influence in influencing them. >> absolutely. it is interesting. even once the gbi system and the czech republican poll were to be established. it has the capability, a very minimal capability against a missile or two that can't handle any decoys whatsoever. that's why it is useless against a very sophisticated adversary like russia. we have worked with it very well to try to bring it well to work against north korea in the past. this is how political relationships should be done enhancing our capability by moving russia to help with us iran. a great move. >> clearly a defensive system. we should not be abandoning it. we should not be conceding to russia before we even start negotiating.

>> thank you very much. running in pennsylvania. up next, "saturday night live" takes a whack at joe wilson, the guy who yelled "you lie!" stick around for "the side show" tonight. 96 hundred. 3 hundred 15. twenty. 1 powerful offer. now get 0% apr for 60 months on all sierra 1500s. gmc sierra. see your gmc dealer today. chef's meal with pommes frites perhaps a night at the theater with extra special seats

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back to "hardball." time for "the side show." misery loves company. values voters, that's the name for themselves. for those looking for a good time, some upbeat fare, you might want to look elsewhere. catch the sessions they have going this saturday at this values venue. obamacare. rationing your life away. global warming hysteria. the new face of the pro-death agenda.

thug-ocracy. this is my favorite. speechless. silencing the christians. what are they talking about? silencing the christians. where do they watch television? mike huckabee spoke today. don't worry, you haven't missed out on the excitement. if i am pawlenty is on tonight. speaking of theater, you can get writers of saturday night live have been itching to get their hands on it. they came back last night with a mock-up of the republican strategy session before wilson's big callout. >> right here. okay? now, look here. somewhere in the middle. here it is. he is going to say this. the reforms i'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. okay? now when he says that, all of us, all at once, together, are

going to yell "you lie!" got that? good. we all degree. that will be fun. >> skaz me. >> yeah? >> congressman joe wilson. if there is nothing else, i'm going to duck into the bath ram for a moment. >> okay. we'll see you on the floor. >> see you on the floor. >> there it goes. >> okay, gang. we've got showtime. hold on. >> i'm starting to have second thoughts about this. >> you know what? you may be right. let's not do it. we could come off very badly. okay? so aware all in agreement? did e hear that? we're not doing it. >> so that's what happened. tame for the big number. boy is it depressing. a new survey in oklahoma among high school students gave basic questions on civics. we're talking real basic like name the first president of the united states. so how many students correctly answered george washington? you will not believe this.

2 23%. high school kids. 23% of high schoolers could name george washington as the first president. maybe they should have asked whose face is on the dollar bill. how could they not know the first president's name? that's the big number. does the president risk of being overexposed? or is this what he kneads to take control of the debates? you are a watching "hardball." so, what's the problem?

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♪ love stinks! this is the ynbc market wrap. stocks resume their slow but steady march hare.

the s&p added two points. the nasdaq gaining six to make it a positive week. proctor and gamble led the way higher. an upgrade from citigroup. am continue to claim to new highs on the year. and home builders were up more than 2% on upgrades as well. we'll hear from lennar in term of the earnings. citigroup down more than 3%. bank of america ended down just a fraction. and the international monetary fund is looking to cash in on a recent spike in gold prices. the board just approved the plan to sell up to $13 billion wofrtsz their own reserves. now back to "hardball."

>> welcome back. president obama is launching an all out media blitz this week with appearances on five sunday shows. if that's not enough, he is doing letterman on monday night. is this a smart strategy to take back the health care debate or is he running a risk of being overexposed and losing his power? pat buchanan is an msnbc analyst and willy brown, the former mayor of san francisco. pat, you'll within the affirmative hear. you think he is getting overexposed. >> i think they're using the president as both head of state and head of government. he has this permanent campaign that they're conducting tends to diminish him to the status of politician. when he is far higher than. that secondly, i haven't seen anybody go for this roadblock since lewinsky's lawyer. phil ginsburg. the third thing is he will be asked what do you think of jimmy

carter? are you going to send troops to afghanistan? how can you talk to iran when ahmadinejad denies the holocaust. he gets all these questions which are very interesting. so what is the headline on monday? something like, obama rebalks carter or disagrees with carter. says racism not behind it. i don't know how that benefits him. i think you need to go on one shot, well prepared, tell the guys, i have to be able to talk about health care and you can ask me so much on these other issues. i think that would have been the rate way to go. >> is this smart politics to expose yourself to so many interviews, so many questions that you're bound to create a problem for yourself? >> i think the only thing left in his whole bag of tricks is himself. i think that the democrats did not do what they should have done. that was have a solid plan. it could be in steps so that in fact the debate would be around the steps. not around the total plan. they didn't do that.

president obama is now attempting to recapture that. since he has made such a big deal about health care, he is taking an extraordinary risk but i think he is talented enough to pull it off. >> i've seen it here with the redskins. the player gets the ball so many times, he gets worn out and you see his career shortened. >> in sports accident like a pitcher, 25, 30-game winner. you sfart throwing him every third day and he burns his arm out. the sail thing. >> no. this is not the same thing. this is not the same thing at all. in this case, we have had in this country, and president obama has allowed it to occur, all kinds of misrepresentation from all sides. he has had all forms of so-called proposals. none of them have been understood by anybody. in his speech, in and of itself did not fully define -- >> well, you know, mr. mayor, i agree with you to this extent.

he was behind the curve terribly. all these plans were out there being ripped to bits. the party was on the defensive. they were losing it. he did step in at that crucial moment and he played the ace of trumps which is a speech to the joint session of congress. i think he had to play it then even though it would have been better to play it later. now, this still battle, you have a got weeks to go in this battle and i think he is using himself up to the point where peel will be bored with hum the way they were bored -- >> i want to run this by you. it seems when people are saying bad things about you, whether high school or whatever. there is a lot of bad rap out there. this case systematically, don't you have to get between those stories and the audience? mr. mayor, first. it seems you have to be there so they can see and talk to you and not hear somebody talking about you. >> you have to make out very clearly the person who is doing the misrepresentation. you have to make they will out to be a liar. and you have to do so without

using the terms of the congressman from south carolina. the best way to do that is to show up, look them in the eye, and believe me. every tame it happened in my case, no matter whether they were right wingers or left wingers, i left the ram with the majority of the people buying what i said, not what other people had that. >> weren't you if one who coin that had phrase, you let a bad story about you go and it gets around the world before you even touch it. >> a lie can go halfway around the world before the truth gets out of bed. >> i thought it was mayor brown who said it. >> here's what i disagree. with. >> let me hear his line. >> a lay unanswered and 24 hours becomes the truth. that's what i said. >> let me tell what you richard nixon will me one time. that a congressman had really ripped him up. it was an awful thing he said. it was in new york. he said i'll go after him.

he said never shoot down. in other words, richard nixon was bigger than this congressman. he shut up. he stack on lyndon johnson. they are on par the way cheney was on par with the president. this is what the president should do. act as president of the oourts. somewhere biden? those people should do the hatchet work. nixon in '72, we didn't mention mcgovern's name. he didn't. everybody else goes after him. that's the way to do it. >> you are assuming that this is a hatchet job that is being done on the president. , no it isn't a hatchet job being done on the president. and so hatchet people shouldn't be the people answering. he needs to say, i've got to put on the docket a vote on whether or not an insurance company can turn you down. i'm going to put on the docket whether or not insurance companies can bounce your numbers up on the co-pay side. and i want a vote on each one of

those. he should go one after another. >> you said earlier, he's got to say they're laying without using the words. in other words going after them. don't use the president of the united states. >> mr. mayor, your final thought on. this up he should go on the sunday shows and do his things? >> he is going to do his thing. he is going to be spectacular. no matter what question they put to him, this is guy who can arns. he is persuasive. people voted for him out of hopeful he has to reestablish that in order to control the ground movement on health care. >> monday night, chris, you're going to be talking about what the president said and it won't be about health care. >> thank you, pat buchanan. thank you willie brown from san francisco. when we return, we'll hear from some of the things obama said to david gregory. we'll see how the taping went with david gregory, the man who

got the interview. this is "hardball." [ thunder rumbles ] what is the sign of a good decision? in the world of personal finance, it's massmutual. find strength and stability in a company that's owned by its policyholders. ask your advisor or visit massmutual.com.

coming up, joe wilson speaks. it's he the target of left wing groups. sort of an apology, sort of a let's to go war. announcer: trying to be good to your heart? so is campbell's healthy request soup. low in fat and cholesterol, heart healthy levels of sodium, and taste you'll love. chef: we're all kind of excited about it. guy: mmm! i can see why. announcer: campbell's healthy request. m'm! m'm! good! for your heart. so, at national, i go right past the counter... and you get to choose any car in the aisle. choose any car? you cannot be serious! okay. seriously, you choose. go national. go like a pro.

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welcome back. here's part of president obama's interview this coming sunday on nbc's "meet the press." >> this health carr debate as you well know can be about bigger things. among your harshest critics, is

the view somehow that government is out of control? >> uh-huh. >> and in some cases, it has gotten very personal. it is supposed to mark america moving beyond race. and yet this week, you had former president jimmy carter saying most, not just a little, but most of this republican opposition against you is motivated by racism. do you agree with that? >> no. look, i said during the campaign, there are some people who still think through the prism of race when it come to evaluating me and my candidacy? slatly. sometime they vote for me for that reason. sometime they vote against me for that reason. i'm sure that was true during the campaign and i'm sure that's true now. but i think you put your finger on what there argument is really. about it is an argument that has gone or for the history of this republic. that is what is the right role of government? how do we balance freedom with our need to look after one

another? i talk about this in the joint sessions speech. this is not a new argument and it always invokes passions. >> with the moderator, david gregory, and from atlantic mead. the one thing i lake got to sit down with him like you had the benefit of doing is the way he thinks out loud and understands the great american tension, the very essence of our country. much freedom do we have? how much equality to we have? taking care of each other versus how much we leave each other alone? >> you and i have talked about off the air is the question of the role of government. that's the big challenge right now. is this president effectively selling to the american people the proposition that government is the solution to some of these huge challenges? i thought it was very interesting a lot of what is lined up against him by way of opposition is not something he thinks is motivated by race.

he makes the concession some of it may be. talking to people behind the scenes, they do not want to turn this into a conversation about race. they don't think there's anything to be gained from it right now. they don't think there's any minds to be changed on this particular topic right now. >> it seems to me, ron, at this time to our history with high unemployment growing through the season with real problems with the government, if he does get a national health care plan through right now, it would be seen as historically odd. how do they do it in that season of high recession, concerns about the economy, concerns about the government and the people agree to some massive federal new program? >> it's no fun being on the same show at the same time as someone who starts the president with -- >> by the way, only he knows what he said. >> well, look, that is the fundamental challenge. when they came in, their bet was they had defeated in effect not only john mccain was ronald reagan. david axelrod argued explicitly

when they came in they believed when bill clinton was president he was operating in the shadow of reagan. they believe the collapse of 2008 and dissatisfaction with bush had really discredited the conservative motion government is not the solution, government is the problem and had more opportunity to reach beyond that. they have done so aggressively on a variety of fronts. the stimulus plan, cap and trade and now health care. they are facing that backlash. that is the -- i believe there is a cultural element behind some of the opposition to obama that is rooted in a sense america is changing in a way system of the voters don't like. it is fundamentally an ideological debate. health care is one component of that. the answer is, if you get there, the tail wind they believe they have is this great deal of satisfaction over the way the economy works and raum emanuel comment. the other thing that's different than in the past, they've been able to peel off constituency

groups. they are facing a grassroots opposition. >> you talk to the president who made the case for government. bill clinton, last democratic president said the air -- do you think he can make this case based on persuasion of powers with you today? can he make the case for more government? >> i don't know that he's there yet, honestly. in the health care debate he's gt to fight his own party on this. the members of congress now, particularly in the senate but in the house as well, who were recruiting to run and retake the majority back in 2006 when they could make a case in their conserve tis' districts that government wasn't working, it wasn't competent after katrina, wasn't competent out of the bush administration because of the iraq war. those very members and senators are saying, hang on. we don't trust government is going to be able to administer a program. a ways to go. >> there's purple state -- red state, rather, democrats have it tough getting re-elected. we'll be right back with david gregory fresh from his interview

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we're back with david gregory and ron brownstein. let's take a look at joe wilson. here he is, joe wilson saying, today, when asked -- what we said when asked about the attention he's gotten from his

"you lie" outburst against the president. >> absolutely not. it was speaking the wrong place, wrong time, and now i'm the number one target of washington democrats. number one target of movon, number one target of a.c.o.r.n., and, hey, but, hey, i trust my constituents. i've never taken them for granted. i'll work hard to justify their vote next year. >> david, did this come up in your interview? did this come up? you're laughing. did this come up? he obviously wants to keep the fight going. >> reporter: by way of passive aggressive. like, i'm sorry now all these people are after me. isn't that actually a great thing? that's what sort of struck me about that. what's interesting about the interview is the way the president talks about how he sees, how he assesses the opposition against him on the question of race, on the question of whether violence is possible as the house speaker talked about. again, the president's