this weekend? >> it's kind of exciting for them because this is -- i don't know if you know this but the voters cotillion, as you call it, is like the olympics where people bid to have it. glen beck is fan one this year. coming in second was the maul kin islands. they went with glen beckistan this weekend. >> they're excited to have tim pawlenty. he's kind of a moderate now. how do you think it plays? >> i'm starting to think that moderate crepublicans. the crazies start hanging around the moderate republicans and c sucking them in. like the crack dealers at school. you have to move closer to the edge and before you know it the moderates are crazy extremists you can't get out. >> it looks like we've got good economic news. quickly, the recession, is it over? >> it's not over. i will believe the recession is

over when the iphone has a jobs ap. >> liz, great to have you with us on this friday edition. check out our pod cast, called "the broadcast with liz winstead and darby whirly." early i asked you what you thought about this. the rhetoric about health care. will it lead to violence? 90% of you said yes. 10% of you said no. that's "the ed show." "hardball" is next. see you monday at 6:00 right here on msnbc. friday night fights. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, the old american problem. from the moment joe wilson shouted out "you lie" at president obama, the country has

been imbrawled in an uneasy conversation about race. is it about race or is it not that black and white? our colleague, gene robinson put it this way in his column in the "washington post" today. quote, i look forward to the day when we can look past race, but before we can do so we need to look at race and see it clearly. we'll look at president obama, at race and america at the top of the show. also up in arms, president obama's decision to scrap president bush's anti-missile system in eastern europe has republicans, well, you can predict this, up a in arms and the white house is kowtowing to russia. robert gates played a large role in that decision. who's being smart about this and who's not? that's our "debate" tonight. plus, look who's talking. there will be no one missing the president this weekend. he's on five sunday shows, plus letterman on monday. is he overexposed or is he smart? as long as he has his health care fight out there and the need to be seen, fighting to bring the economy back, is he

right to be out there on stage? that's "the big question." we'll ask david gregory, moderator of "meet the press" with his interview with president obama he just taped late this afternoon, insights on what the president is thinking. that will be in the politics fix tonight. and finally tonight, "saturday night live" back with its wondrous version of the republican strategy session. at least the one they imagined before that "you lie" out burst. >> right here. here, somewhere in the middle. here it is. he is going to say this. the reforms i'm proposing would not play to those who are here illegally. okay? now when he says that, all of us, all at once, together, are going to yell "you lie!" >> he's so good at that. at catching that republican atmosphere. more of that in "the sideshow." let's start with the role in race may be playing on the

right. douglas brinkley is of course a great presidential historian. new book is "the wilderness warrior" about teddy roosevelt. a big seller now. melissa harris lacewell is a professor on african-american history at princeton. great to have you both on and this is friday afternoon. i'm going to cool it a bit myself and listen to both of you. because i do find it interesting -- i mean it, i may not it, i mean it, melissa. i want to listen. i do find a lot to be learning here. here's what david brooks wrote today in "the new york times." obama's movement includes urban politicians, academics, hollywood donors and information-aged professionals. in his first few months, he has fused federal power with wall street, the auto industry, the health care industries and the energy sector. given all this it was guaranteed that he would spark a populace backlash regardless of his skin color. it was guaranteed this backlash would be ill mannered, conspiratorial, and over the

top. since these movements are always that way. whether they are led by huey long, father coughlin or anyone else. we have to pay attention to david brooks. i want to know what you think of that, melissa. this isn't that he is african-american or that he has this african name, barack hussein obama, but that he represents the sort of new tide, big city, cultural elite, if you will. >> i certainly think that david brooks as normal has hit something very important here. that is that african-americans are not the only group of people against whom there have been populist movements and certainly regardless of who was president who introduced these kinds of changes. you are certainly going to see importance and organized conservative backlash, especially around health care. there was highly effective backlash around health care reform and the last time i checked they're not only white but southern and white. that that, i think what brooks misses in that arresting autumn

argument is that from our very earliest time, as a country, the sort of effort against whether it is the french or the irish or indigenous peoples or african-americans, they've often been framed as simply about values or about americanness. but they've still had this ethnic shoef ism or racism at their roots. >> so his name was joe brown, a common american name. something as african as barack obama. would he being getting this kind of nate vist attack on him? you're not from here. the birther thing, all that stuff about not being one of us. you know? >> that's the frame that is available. he is not only black but he is also black and the child of an african student who was here in the united states who married a white woman. all those things are used as part of his narrative to get elected, can now be deployed against him.

at the same time i certainly think that the key here is that if he were black and not bringing about significant social change then i suspect, you know, the conservatives would not be particularly upset. in other words, if he were, say, clarence thomas, he wouldn't be getting these sorts of arguments. it is an intersection between his race and his progressivism. >> let's go with douglas brinkley on that question. douglas, you know this whole history. you know, your historian role comes into play here. if hillary clinton or john kerry or al gore, one of the recent democratic nominees, almost presidential candidates, had won the presidency and they were pushing the exact same program as barack obama right now, would they have people charging that they weren't born in the united states? would they have people -- would there be people out there saying "you lie?" would they be bringing guns to rallies? >> no, i think the whole

climate, political climate has been charged. take hillary clinton, for example, they went after her pretty hard back in 1993 for her health care. that's when all the rumors about bill clinton started coming and vince foster. it got pretty dirty. i think you're seeing a populist backlash, a nate vist backlash, a real fear of too large a federal government. what made congressman wilson suspect, made me suspect him as perhaps as a racist, his flare-up. he short-circuited and shouting "you lie" right when it came about immigrations, illegal immigrants getting medical. now dark-signed people from mexico might get health care with an african-american president saying it. it was almost like the two, the cobble of the two made him short circuit and burst out and say that. and his background of being a promoter of the confederate flag, so, which is becoming a shrinking base. it makes the south look bad. most southerners aren't looking for a confederate flag.

he's part of a very hard states rights, southern kind of backlash against minorities in my views. if he's masqueradining as a conservative republican when really he has a great deal of veen phobia and i'm afraid bigotry in him. >> let me go to melissa on that question. why is it that the south is so strong on the skepticism of barack obama's american birth? >> the south is still wrapped in a set of anxieties that unfortunately go back to the civil war. i grew up in the south. i grew up in virginia and went to school and was taught that the civil war was the war of northern aggression. that the period after reconstruction was a time of redemption. so i'm not that old. for that to have been the language in the public schools while i was coming through is indicative of the fact the south is still struggling. on the other hand, i think we would be absolutely wrong to imagine that racism exists only

in the south. we would be silly to forget barack obama won this election carrying virginia and north carolina. i mean, he carried them in part because the demographics in the south have changed dramatically. it was the southeast asian vote in northern virginia. growing latino vote in north carolina which made an enormous difference for barack obama. also raised the anxieties of some white southerners still living there. although saluabsolutely not all white southerners. >> you make a good point. i would argue another point. they went for barack obama is the brilliant decisions made 50 years ago in terms of your education system. i went to chapel hill. let me ask doug brinkley about that. i think a lot of this is class and education levels. the people with the phds aren't out there attacking barack obama. >> there's no question about it. let's be clear. this all should be about health care right now. i think the wilson thing is a

sideshow. the media can't get carried away. i'm hoping we won't spend the next three years every time there is a racially charged moment and it becomes the dominant theme. it will happen a lot. we do have an african-american president. you turn on tv stations now and you're looking at a.c.o.r.n. being raised up to the front burner for top news because it's a community organizing group with their hands caught in the cookie jar and worse. >> i think it is worse. >> some how tied directly to -- >> go ahead. >> it's a big story and it's real, but i'm just saying those kind of things now are getting tied to barack obama and race plays some sort of part of it. i do a lot of american history. it is hard to find a decade where race doesn't fall into play. i'm just kind of race fatigued. i'm hoping every time some moment happens, including wilson, it doesn't become just about race. >> okay. i want to ask you both to finish up on this. it seems to me you can't call

racism un-american because it's part of our past history and part of our present history. it's not something new. it's something we grew up with. it is in the constitution as we grew up. with we all know that racial distinction. let me ask you, melissa, this question. is the glass half full under barack obama or half empty? >> well, i much prefer racism that has an african-american president, a latina on the supreme court and frankly white commentators and white men with television shows who are so anxious about the idea of racism that they want to talk about it. so this is about the best form of american racism i've ever seen. compared to jim crow, lynching, slavery, the history of racial terrorism in america. so i think we're well better than half full. but certainly not all worked out. it is funny to me that it's typically, though, white americans who say they have racial fatigue. black folks live with. this we're not that surprised by it but we still love our country. and are prepared to think about what our future can look like.

>> doug, do you think some of this was started because just a confluence of the harsh -- well, the real concerns of health care? it's close to the skin. literally. you're afraid you will lose your health care. henry louis gates incident where the president sort of took sides ethnically, it looked like to a lot of people. the sonia sotomayor nomination fight, where she said a wise latina woman, where she clearly made an ethnic pride statement. that it gave permission for this discussion? >> and the obama administration, not clearly presenting a health care plan back in april or may before the long summer that people could understand. the obama administration gave an opening for this kind of town hall rage. the town hall strategy, the disrupting it, was part of the republican gop strategy book. remember when mccain ran for president he was pushing hard for town hall meetings just so they could have these kind of moments. so from a pure strategic point of view, i think the obama administration has allowed an

opening. they've exposed a weak underbelly of the administration. the right is taking advantage of it and now you have a president this coming weekend that has to do all the tv shows and go on letterman and he is selling from a difficult position right now. he is not selling from strength. he is selling from a point of last-minute nerve-racking weakness. >> the great thing about doing this show, melissa, and thank you for that incon yum to me, i know it was directly toward me a moment ago. one of the great things of doing this show is having folks like you on this show. melissa is from princeton. up there with cornell, my buddy. cornell west. thank you for coming on the show. douglas, good luck with the book. "the wilderness." bestseller. great to see one book on the bestseller list worth reading these days. there are so many right wing crap on the shelves these days. friends are actually excited about reading it.

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get the hair. for about four mone scalp. to put it simply, our new missile defense architecture in europe will provide stronger, smarter, and swifter defenses of american forces and america's allies. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president obama laying out his plan to change the u.s. missile defense strategy in europe.

he did that today to counter the threat from iran. but criticism from the right came quickly. let's listen. >> this decision was obviously rushed. the polish prime minister, according to news reports, was called at midnight. the decision to abandon the missile defense sites in poland and the czech republic came as a surprise to them. i might add that members of congress were also not briefed on this decision. >> today secretary of state hillary clinton defended the president's decision and emphasized the u.s. is not throwing eastern european allies under the bus. let's listen to the secretary of state. >> we would never, never walk away from our allies. we are deploying a system that enhances the security of our nato allies. two of our allies, poland and the czech republic, were very willing to host parts of the previous-planned system, and we

deeply appreciate that. >> joining me now, u.s. congressman joe sestak from pennsylvania and congressman mike turn of ohio, both members of the house armed services committee. congressman sestak, make the case for why we should change to the more mobile approach focusing on the medium-ranged missiles rather than the icbms? >> the estimates that calm out in june said the long range missile threat is some time distant in the future. right now there is a short and medium-range threat from iran and their missiles that they are increasing in production. so what we have is, our troops in the middle east, israel and southeastern europe, including turkey, even when the bush administration's plan by 2017 to put the gbis, ground based intercepters, in the czech republic and poland, won't even cover any of that threat.

so by having an upgrade on our sea-based infrastructure, we'll have the ability to protect our troops, israel, and southeastern europe. as the capability of iran develops, there's an upgrade on the ships that gives as good as capability as the ground-based intercepters would do. in europe, around israel, the middle east and almost as good as back to the united states. more immediate capability then you can pivot and say to russia, how about helping us with diplomatic and economic sanctions on iran that would force it not to produce a nuclear weapon. what a great, great plan. >> what is your problem with the president's decision? >> the problem is that he is creating a false choice. he is saying that short range and medium-ranged missiles must be dealt with immediately, therefore, we can't address the issue of icbms and the continuing threat to the united

states. that's not where we ought to be. we ought to take seriously the threat from iran to the united states. the plan the bush administration -- >> do they have icbms? >> well, every intelligence estimate indicates by 2015, they will have the capability of icbms. of course, that's the current intelligent estimates. they could accomplish that much quicker. the plan the president has put on the table doesn't protect the united states until 2020. the plan he just scrapped would have affected the united states by 2013. it was the most cost-effective plan. my subcommittee, received a briefing at the beginning of this year. classified report. this is an unclassified version. undependent assessment, the most cost-effective system, the one that would have protected the united states by 2013, most effective, compared to the ship system, which representative sestak just said, was the one the president just scrapped. cost effectiveness and

protecting the country earlier. >> let me get back. the question here is our relationship with putin. every has told me, if we're going to put the cap on the nuclear potential of iran. how does that sit with that goal? this redeployment to the mobile sources? >> the administration has based this on the technical feasibility. having it more rapidly there. the ida study of which i read that mike mentioned actually won't be implemented until 2017. it was based upon starting this system five years ago. that's why the study is out of date. but we're now able to say to russia that, look, no longer do you have this stick in your eye. although the united states has the same capability, putting that -- so, therefore, you can help us have economic sanctions. diplomatic sanctions with iran. because they've helped them on their nuclear reactor business. now we need them to close the land route economically if we are to apply sanctions on iran.

if it does continue to pursue its nuclear capability. this is the use of our military and a political military way. and it does give us the same capability at sea, actually much more immediately. >> isn't this a question, congressman, of fighting the new war against iran rather than fighting the old war against russia? are we in danger of being attacked by russia in any way? >> perhaps sestak should reread this report. it says it is intended to be operational by 2012, 2013, and provide full-term coverage. i've asked secretary gates to release the classified version. it is 2013. that's the real important issue. the president is scrapping a program that would have provided protection for the united states from icbms by 2013. the intelligence estimates currently say 2015. iran could do it quicker. 2015, the president comes one a plan in 2020. clearly a five-year gap and saying i'm going to do it quicker. >> we got a report just from reuters, the british news service, the russian president,

medvedev, is pleased by obama's decision. quote, the fact they're listening to us is an obvious signal we should also attentively listen to our partners. that's us, our american partn partners. medvedev said in an interview with swiss media, head of the meeting with obama. quote, in politics there's always a scorecard. what's wrong with getting a better relation with the former soviet unions? >> nothing wrong with having good relations with russia. the problem is that it shouldn't come at the expense of the defense of the united states. >> i'm trying to get -- let me go to congressman sestak. who are you afraid of? the iranians or russians in form of missile attack? iranians are russians? who's the primary threat? >> i would be much more concerned about the iranians. that's why we want to get immediate capability out there. if i could, michael. please, mike, if i could. the problem with the study is it doesn't take into account that this is assuming signed ratifications with the czech

republican and poland. signed implementation agreement and also requirement that nothing can be starting to be built until the two-stage gbi is tested. that won't be until 2012. that's why it's four years after that in 2017 before you can get this -- >> you can't deny the president said, it's right up on the white house website. with respect to russia, you have understand, this is a defensive system. russia is requesting that we abandon a defensive system. why would they do that? i don't know. i don't think them asking us to abandon a defensive system is in our best interest. >> why do you think they want us to do that? >> one thing is for certain. when they ask us to abandon a defensive system, they're looking to their offensive systems. we're entering stark negotiations by concession of this president up front where he has received nothing from this concession. historically, no indication ever that conceding to russia early is going to get you greater concessions later. now having a good relationship with russia is important. but for what end? they certainly have not supported with us respect to

iran and sanctions to iran to stop their nuclear program or missile programs. >> curiosity, here, very interesting -- what is very interesting is -- >> we see things differently. >> iranians have not shown they're willing to influence. russia has shown vest in influencing them. once the gbi system in the czech republic were to be established. it has the capability, a very minimal capability against a missile or two that can't handle any decoys whatsoever. that's why it is useless against a very sophisticated adversary like russia. now, when you sit back, we can work with russia and have worked with it very well to try to bring it well to work against north korea in the past. this is truly how political military relationships should be done. enhancing our capability by moving russia to help us with iran. a great move.

>> clearly a defensive system. we should not be abandoning it. we should not be conceding to russia before we even start negotiating. >> thank you very much. congressmanmen. joe sestak running for the senate in pennsylvania. up next, "saturday night live" takes a whack at congressman joe wilson, the guy who yelled "you lie" to president obama on the house floor. stick around for "the sideshow." [ ring ] [ "catch the wind" plays ] what is the sign of a good decision? in the world of personal finance, it's massmutual. find strength and stability in a company that's owned by its policyholders. ask your advisor or visit massmutual.com. if you're using other moisturizing body washes, you might as well be. you see, their moisturizer sits on top of skin,

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back to "hardball." time for "the sideshow." first up, misery loves company. values voters, that's their name for themselves, they're holding their jamboree right now here in washington. for those looking for a good time, some upbeat fare, you might want to look elsewhere. not exactly operation upbeat. catch the sessions they have going this saturday at this values venue. obamacare. rationing your life away.

global warming hysteria. the new face of the pro-death agenda. thug-ocracy. fighting the vast left wing conspiracy. this is my loving one. speechless, silencing the christians. what are they talking about? silencing the christians. where do they watch television? mike huckabee, that old razorback spoke today. don't worry, you haven't missed out on the excitement. if i am pawlenty is on tonight. hold ones to your seat. mr. saturday night, mitt romney, is tomorrow. sure enough, snl came back last night with a mock-up of the republican strategy session before wilson's big callout. >> right here. okay? now, look here. let's see. somewhere in the middle. here it is. he is going to say this. the reforms i'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. okay?

now when he says that, all of us, all at once, together, are going to tell you lie. we all agree. >> excuse me? >> yeah. >> congressman joe wilson? if there's nothing else i'm going to duck into the bathroom in a moment. >> see you on the floor. okay, gang. we've got show time. >> hold on, hold on, hold on. i'm start to have second thoughts about this. >> you know what? you may be right. let's not do it. all of a sudden i'm realizing we could come off real badly. okay? so aware all in agreement? did e hear that? we're not doing it. everybody hear that? >> so that's what happened. time for tonight's "big number." boy is it depressing. a new survey in oklahoma among high school students gave basic questions on civics. to the kids.

we're talking real basic like name the first president of the united states. so how many students correctly answered george washington? you will not believe this. 23%. high school kids. less than one in four. less than 23s% of oklahoma high schoolers could name george washington as the first president. maybe they should have asked whose face is on the dollar bill. i'm sorry, how could they not know the first president's name? that's tonight's big, bad number. does the president risk of being overexposed? is this what he needs to do to take control of the debates 1234 the sea salts of the world vary in color, taste, and intensity. now campbell's has found one that tops them all. it's naturally flavorful. adding it helps us use less salt than before in campbell's tomato soup. that famous, familiar flavor, as delicious as ever.

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a seven former heads of the cia are calling on president obama to reverse a decision by eric holder re-opening a criminal investigation into the use of harsh interrogation techniques. the investigation could discourage cia officers from aggressively pursuing intelligence collection activities. nbc news learned an afghan national under investigation by the government has admitted having ties to al qaeda. he has also admitted undergoing terrorist training in pakistan. tens of thousands of iranians took to the streets today, some protesting and some supporting the current leadership. there are reports many opposition leaders were attacked by hardliners supporting the iranian government. political writer and publisher irving crystal has died. seen here accepting the presidential medal of freedom was considered the godfather of the neoconservative movement. he was 89 years old. now back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." president obama is launching an all out media blitz this week with appearances on five sunday shows. if that's not enough, he is doing letterman on monday night. is this a smart strategy to take back criminal of the health care debate or is he running a risk of being overexposed and losing his power? pat buchanan is an msnbc analyst and willy brown, the former mayor of san francisco. pat, you'll within the affirmative here. you think he is getting overexposed. >> i think they're using the president as both head of state and head of government. chris, i thinks president has this permanent campaign that they're conducting tends to diminish him to the status of politician when he is far higher than that. secondly, i haven't seen anybody go for this road block since monica lewinsky's lawyer. phil ginsburg.

so i think he's depreciating. third thing is, chris, he's going to be asked about, what do you think of jimmy carter? are you going to send troops to afghanistan? how can you talk to iran when ahmadinejad denies the holocau holocaust? he gets all these questions which are very interesting. so what is the headline on monday? something like obama rebukes carter or disagrees with carter, says racism is not been it. i don't know how that benefits him. i think you need to go on one shot, well prepared, tell the guys, i have to be able to talk about health care and you can ask me so much on these other issues. i think that would have been the right way to go. >> that's the question and the great question for mayor brown. mayor brown, is this smart politics to expose yourself to so many interviews, so many questions that you're bound to create a problem for yourself? >> i think the only asset left in his whole bag of tricks is himself. i think that the democrats did not do what they should have done. that is have a solid plan that people can understand. it could be in steps so that in

fact the debate would be around the steps. not around the total plan. they didn't do that. president obama is now attempting to recapture that. since he has made such a big deal about health care, he is taking an extraordinary risk but i think he is talented enough to pull it off. >> i think of a football player to get the ball too many times. i've seen it here with the skins a lot. the player gets the ball so many times, he gets worn out and you see his career shortened. right in front of you sometimes. >> just like a picture, 25, 30-game winner. you start throwing him every third day and he burns his arm out. it's the same thing. >> no. this is not the same thing, pat. this is not the same thing at all. in this case, we have had in this country, and president obama has allowed it to occur, all kinds of misrepresentations from all sides. he has had all forms of so-called proposals. none of them have been understood by anybody. in his speech, in and of itself did not fully define --

>> well, you know, mr. mayor, i agree with you to this extent. he was behind the curve terribly. all these plans were out there being ripped to bits. his party was on the defensive. they were losing it. he did step in at that crucial moment and he played the ace of trumps which is a speech to the joint session of congress. i think he had to play it then even though it would have been better to play it later. now, this still battle, you have a got weeks to go in this battle and i think he is using himself up to the point where people are going to be bored with him the way they were wored with george bush at town halls. >> it seems to me when people are saying bad things about you, whether high school or mayor or whatever else and there's a lot of bad rap out there on you and people are spreading stories about you. this case systematically, don't you have to get between those stories and the audience? mr. mayor, first. you have to get there, it seems to me, and be there so they can see and hear and talk to you and

not hear somebody talking about you. >> you have to make out very clearly the person who is doing the misrepresentation. you have to make them out to be a liar. and you have to do so without using the terms of the congressman from south carolina. the best way to do that is to show up, look them in the eye, and believe me, every time it happened in my case, no matter whether they were right wingers or left wingers, i left the room with the majority of the people buying what i said, not what other people had said. >> let me say -- >> weren't you the one, mr. mayor, who coined that phrase if you let a bad story about you go and it gets around the world before you even touch it. >> a lie can go halfway around the world before the truth gets out of bed. that's mark twain. >> i thought it was mayor brown who said it. let me hear his line. congressman? >> a lie unanswered and 24 hours becomes a truth. that's what i said. and that's the reality. >> let me tell what you richard nixon told me one time.

that a congressman had really ripped him up. it was an awful thing he said. i was in new york. i said, i'm going to go after him. he said, pat, never shoot down. in other words, richard nixon was bigger than this congressman. he shot up. he took on lyndon johnson. when lyndon johnson attacked him, they were on a par the way cheney was on a par with the president. this is what the president should do. act adds president of the united states. where is briden, where are his people to take on the opposition? those people should do the hatchet work. nixon in 72, we didn't mention mcgovern's name. we didn't. everybody else goes after him. that's the way to do it. >> you are assuming that this is a hatchet job that is being done on the president. no, it isn't a hatchet job being done on the president. and so hatchet people shouldn't be the person that's answering. he needs to say, i've got to put on the docket a vote on whether or not an insurance company can turn you down. that's one item. i'm going to put on the docket

whether or not insurance companies can bounce your numbers up on the co-pay side. and i want a vote on each one of those. he should go one after another. >> you said earlier, he's got to say they're lying without using the words. in other words going after them. don't use the president of the united states. as the bayonet of the party. the vice president was that under -- you've got him. >> mr. mayor, your final thought on this? you say he should go on sunday shows and do his thing? >> he is going to do his thing. he is going to be spectacular. no matter what question they put to him, this is guy who can answer. he's persuasive. people voted for him out of hope. he has to reestablish that in order to control the ground movement on health care. >> monday night, chris, you're going to be talking about what the president said and it won't be about health care. >> thank you, pat buchanan. thank you mayor willie brown of san francisco. thank you, sir, for joining us. thank you, pat. when we return, we're going

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gotten very personal? >> right. >> your election to a lot of people was supposed to mark america as somehow moving beyond race. >> right. >> and, yet, this week you had former president jimmy carter saying most, not just a little, but most of this republican opposition against you is motivated by racism. do you agree with that? >> no. look, i said during the campaign, are there some people who still think through the prism of race when it comes to evaluating me and my candidacy? absolutely. sometimes they vote for me for that reason. sometimes they vote against me for that reason. i'm sure that was true during the campaign and i'm sure that's true now. i think you actually put your finger on what this argument is really about. it's an argument that's gone on for the history of this republic, and that is what's the right role of government? how do we balance freedom with our need to look after one another? i talked about this in the joint

sessions speech. this is not a new argument. it always invokes passions. >> withes now, moderator of "meet the press" david gregory who asked the great question and ron brownstein, atlantic media. the one thing i like about this president when you get to sit down the benefit of doing is the way he thinks outloud and understands that great american tension, which is the very essence of our country. how much freedom do we have? how much equality do we have? how much taking care of each other versus how much do we leave each other alone? it is the great american tension. i think he got to it. >> absolutely. chris, something you and i have talked about off the air, this question of role of government. is this president effectively selling to the american people the proposition that government is the solution to some of these huge challenges? and i thought it was very interesting that a lot of what is lined up against him by way of opposition is not something he thinks is motivated by race. he makes the concession that some of it may be. from the president's remarks,

you can get it. and talking to people behind the scenes, they do not want to turn this into a conversation about race. they don't think there's anything to be gained from it right now. they don't think there's any minds to be changed on this particular topic right now. >> it seems to me, ron, at this time in our history with high unemployment growing and growing and growing all through the season with real problems in the government that if he does get a national health care plan through right now, it would be seen as historically odd. how do they do it in that season? of high recession, of concerns about the economy, concerns about the government, and the people agree to some massive new federal program? >> first of all, it's no fun being on the show at the same time with someone who can start a sentence as the president said to me today. i feel -- a certain advantage today. >> as he said that -- >> i'm going to soldier through. look, that is the fundamental challenge. when they came in, their bet was they had defeated in effect not only john mccain but ronald reagan. david axelrod argued that they believed that when bill clinton

was president, he was still operating in the shadow of reagan. people were resistant to the idea of government. they believe the collapse of 2008 and a dissatisfaction with bush had really discredited the conservative notion that government is not the solution, government is the problem. and more opportunity than clinton did to reach beyond and expand government's role in our economy. and they have done so aggressively on a variety of fronts. the stimulus plan, cap and trade, and now health care. and they are facing that backlash. that is the core -- i believe there is a cultural element behind some of the opposition to obama that is rooted in a sense that america's changing the way that some of those voters don't like. but it is fundamentally an ideological argument. and health care is one component of that. well the answer is if you get there, you know, the tail wind they have, they believe they have is this great deal of dissatisfaction over the way the economy has worked and the rahm emanuel argument that a crisis is a terrible thing to waste. the hoer thing they have done that is different than in the past is they've been able to peel off the key constituency groups to support them, but they are facing this grass roots opposition and it is more

ideological than the role -- >> it's so amazing because you talked to the president, bill clinton, a democrat, the last democratic president says the era is over after getting whacked in the '94 election. could he make the case for more government? >> well, i don't know that he's there yet, honestly, i don't know that he's there. because in the health care debate, he has got to fight his own party on this. those members of congress now, particularly in the senate, but in the house, as well, who were recruited to run and to retake the majority back in 2006 when they could make a case in their conservative districts that government wasn't working that it wasn't competent after katrina, that it wasn't competent under the bush administration because of the iraq war. those very members and senators are saying, hang on, we don't trust that government's going to be able to administer a program. i think we have a ways to go. >> and purple state and blue state, red state rather, democrats have it tough getting reelected. we'll be right back with david gregory fresh from his interview with president obama and with

ron brownstein who is trying to keep up here. politics fix coming up. joe wilson's first sort of apology, just came out. we'll be watching. mers mers who raise vegetables in campbell's condensed soup. so if you've ever wondered who grew my soup, well, here they are. ♪ so many, many reasons ♪ it's so m'm! m'm! good! ♪ so, at national, i go right past the counter... and you get to choose any car in the aisle. choose any car? you cannot be serious! okay. seriously, you choose. go national. go like a pro. but now that i'm breathing better with advair... i can enjoy the zoo with my grandkids. (announcer) for people with copd including chronic bronchitis, emphysema, or both, great news. advair helps significantly improve lung function. while nothing can reverse copd, advair is different from most other medications because it contains both an anti-inflammatory

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to the cold.r world on your mastercard ♪ i'm cool like that we're back with david gregory with the politics fix. let's take a look, joe wilson saying well, today when asked what he said when he's asked about the attention he's gotten from his "you lie" outburst against the president.

>> absolutely not. it was speaking the wrong place, wrong time. and now i'm the number one target of washington democrats. number one target of move on, number one target of a.c.o.r.n. and, hey, i trust my constituents, i've never taken them for granted and i'll work hard to justify their vote next year. >> david, did this come up in your interview? you're laughing. did this come up, he wants to keep the fight going. >> by way of passive aggressive, that gets up there, that's pretty high. i'm sorry and now all of these people are after me. and isn't that actually a great thing? that's what struck me about that. i think what's interesting about the interview is the way the president talks about how he sees how he assesses the opposition against him. on the question of race, on the question of whether violence is possible as the house speaker talked about. and again the president's talking about civility, trying to keep some of