many you know, jim, i was talking to richard engel about this early. the president did his top to bottom review of the strategy in afghanistan. mcchrystal has now done an assessment. so are we in this position again of looking at the strategy again? what has changed over these last few months that would make another look at the strategy necessary? >> well, quite frankly, president obama has pressed concerns over charges that the president -- the government hamid karzai rigged presidential elections and defense secretary robert gates, who has signaled that he is in favor of increasing the number of troops in afghanistan, he too said -- told reporters here at the pentagon that the charges against the karzai government in terms of a possible election fraud is essentially a game-changer in all this. and, again, i can't -- i can't emphasize enough the political equation that is being inserted into this military strategy now, given the growing opposition on

capitol hill, and among the american people. it's estimated now that only about one-third or slightly more than one-third of american people actually support the u.s. military efforts in afghanistan, while that number used to be well over 50% not too long ago. >> excellent point, mik. this will not strictly be a military decision, that's for sure. nbc's jim milk. >> much of this is for the escalation of the war comes from republicans, like senator lindsay graham of south carolina. graham was on with david gregory on nbc's "meet the press." >> i'll be one republican standing by this president, and we will not do to him what they did to bush. this is not obama's war in afghanistan. this is america's war, and there is a way to win it, according to our commanders. we're going to need more resources to do it. >> mark whitacre is nbc news washington bureau chief joins us live from washington.

in many cases, mark, the opponents of the president are trying to paint it as obama's war. why is the tide of opinion turning against afghanistan? >> look, this is not just republicans. there are a lot of people in the democratic party who are also very wary about where the strategy is headed right now. and i agree with jim that the afghan elections were a big turning point. the strategy was supposed to be that we were going to help the government get on its own two feet, help the afghan army defend themselves against the taliban. but increasingly in the wake of the election, the government looks corrupt and ineffectual. there are a lot of questions about how effective the afghan military could be. so if we can't get them to the point where they can fight for themselves, a lot of people are asking in both parties, what are we doing there? >> okay. so senator carl levin, who is the democrat and chairman of the armed services committee was at a hearing with joint chief chairman administratively mullen last week. and here's what he said about moving forward in terms of

strategy. >> providing the resources needed for the afghan army and afghan police to become self-sufficient would demonstrate our commitment to the success of a mission that is in our national security interest. while avoiding the risks associated with a larger u.s. foot print. >> that seemed to work in iraq, going in and trying to train the iraqis to take charge of their own security. would there be the political will from lawmakers to otherwise have some skepticism if this was really about money and training afghanis? >> well, the problem is, it is a bit of a slippery slope. i think as mcchrystal's report suggests, that once you start talking about building up the government and is building up the army, then you are on your -- on the road to a nation-building operation. there was a real question whether we have the financial resources and the political will to do that. but you know what's interesting, contessa, is that usually in these pentagon reports to the president, the military lays out

a number of options. >> right. >> suspect one might be the option they want. but there is usually a middle option that in case the white house wants to compromise, they have some cover to do that. mcchrystal did not do that in this case. so the pentagon is really playing hard ball at this point and saying, look, this is the way -- this is what we think is going to be effective. and so far, they have not given the white house cover from the pentagon if the president wants to change the strategy and the mission. >> well, it's interesting you bring up that point, mark. not to put you on the spot, but one does wonder how this document got leaked to the "washington post" in the first place and made headlines in every newspaper today, about how if we don't resource this war right, we are going to lose there. is the military as you say really playing hard ball there? >> not only on the front page of the "washington post," but under the by line of bob woodward, one of the most well connected reporters, on capitol hill and so forth. and usually that's what you say.

when there are tensions behind the scenes, within an administration over policy, people start trying to fight those wars in the press. and i think that's exactly what's happening here. >> mark, it's good to talk to you. thank you very much. it's interesting. in this america, there seems to be a pervasive attitude of sort of a revulgs toward nation building. when george w. bush was running in 2000, i was there, when he was addressing the veterans of foreign wars, and he said i as president will not go in and donation building. and then in iraq we thought it didn't happen. a lot of what it takes to win wars is nation building. >> and this political hat trick when the president came out and announced his strategy and said our objective is very simple, very clean, we want to dismantle, disrupt al qaeda, that's all well and good, but in order to accomplish that objective, you find yourself having to get involved in some of these nation-building activities, stabilizing the government, et cetera. so once again, as jim points out, it's not the military decision that happens in a

vacuum. there's a lot of politics, too. >> developing news surrounding three men accused in it an ongoing terror investigation. the suspects are all making appearances in federal court this afternoon. federal officials say najibullah zazi had al qaeda training and bomb-making instructses on his computer. meanwhile, authorities are warning law enforcement around the country that improvised explosive devices are the most common tactic to blow up rail and transit systems. while officials aren't confirming any of the these attacks, they're most worried about the use of backpack bombs on mass city transit trains. pete williams joins us live. and pete, just learning about this case, reading up about it, i'm struck by how much investigators frankly don't know about this case. >> reporter: fair enough. i think the concern about backpack bombs is simply based on the fact that when they did the search in new york, they found a number of backpacks. that's thing one. and thing two is, on the computer you're talking about,

about this denver man, najibullah zazi, they found a formula for making explosives. it's similar to the explosive material that was used in the london bombings in 2005. you see najibullah being arrested over the weekend in denver. similar to the formula used in the london subway bombings in 2005. and in the shoes of richard reid, the would-be shoe bomber trying to blow up a plane from the u.s. to france. and i think that's why the authorities are saying to the people who run trains and subways, you know, you maybe ought to step up your security. but they're honest in saying they really don't know what the goal of this attack was. a general goal to attack in new york, that seems to be the consensus. but how they were going to do it, when they were going to do it, what the precise target was, they still don't know. now, the court hearings are over for the three men who were arrested over the weekend. zazi here, his father, and an islamic cleric from new york, all were ordered held until further detention hearings on thursday. and we didn't learn many new

details about the government's case. i think it's fair to say at this point, that the government not only doesn't know precisely what the plan of attack was, it also doesn't know exactly who was involved. they say they have some idea of others, that they'll undoubtedly be further arrests in the coming days, but it's pretty clear their best hope of learning precisely what was happening here is to find some people who were involved, arrest them, persuade them to cooperate, and then hope to unravel this whole thing. in any event, i think there's a feeling, savannah, within the government, that this is certainly a successful effort to stop what appears to be a fairly well-developed terror cell in the u.s. >> you do get the feeling that they had to move quickly. and i think the assistant u.s. attorney basically said so, which is maybe why they don't have the case as fully developed as they may like. i may be putting you on the spot here, pete, i hope not, but do you have the sense that these folks in custody, charged with

false statements at the moment, kind of place chargers, perhaps, are the big fish they're looking for, or do you think this is a case where investigators will be wanting to talk to them, wring out some information, and perhaps go for people who have more authority and perhaps even more culpability in this terrorist plot? >> reporter: well, i think they certainly believe at this point, based on what they know, that the najibullah zazi, the young man from denver, the young man you saw being led from his apartment saturday night, believe he is the central figure in this. he has admitted going to pakistan to take all died training. that's him on the left, his father on the right. last year taking, like, four and a half months of al qaeda training in pakistan, in explosives and weapons. coming back to the u.s., driving to denver a few days before the 9/11 anniversary with his computer in his car that had these handwritten notes that the fbi believes could be his own handwriting, in fact, about how to build these weapons. and the fbi looked at this formula and instructions say it would have, in fact, made a

considerably powerful explosive. i think they think he is a central figure. i think they don't really know what extent his father was, and i think they have a less of a feeling about the cleric in new york. >> all right. nbc's pete williams, thanks so much. >> and by the way, we're just getting now from the "associated press" an alert that the federal judge there in colorado has ordered the terror suspect zazi to be held, pending detention hearing on thursday. so there was some question about whether they were going to release him today. the answer to that is no. he will be behind bars at least for three more days when they have a hearing to address his custody situation. >> all right. coming up, we'll go back to politics, and why the new gop may look eye little bit like the old gop. what this weekend's republican summit tells us about the future of the republican party. also, what is up with the political tell-always? these new books about big names, and these folks who are just disloyal! telling tales. listen, it's a look mibehind th

scenes. >> yeah, you're talking about it. plus, a bank customer who took matters into his own hands during a heist. we'll show you this. this is the "big picture" on msnbc. i get congested. my eyes itch. i have to banish you to the garden. but now with zyrtec-d®, i have the proven allergy relief of zyrtec®, plus a powerful decongestant. i can breathe freer with zyrtec-d®. so, i'll race you to our favorite chair. i might even let you win. zyrtec-d® lets me breathe easier, so i can love the air™. zyrtec-d®. behind the pharmacy counter. no prescription needed.

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about taking care with vesicare. . welcome back to the "big picture." is former arkansas senator mike huckabee the future of the republican party? he emerged from the values senate as topping the most likely gop candidate in 2012. huckabee met romney, pawlenty,

sarah palin and mike pence in indiana. is the party returning to the pace hoping to create a backlash against president obama to win back congress next year and perhaps the white house in 2012? jonathan martin, senior political reporter from politico. mike huckabee, what's the draw? >> thanks for having me. i think huckabee has an appeal among a certain kind of voters. socially conservative, born-again christians, and especially those who are politically active. and i just defined for you the exact nature of who was at this meeting. look, this is less than a thousand people, and the kind of people who are motivated enough to come to a washington, d.c., three-day political event. so let's not say too much conservation about one week event three years before the primary. >> but since we are analyzing, and since you're here. >> since we have, to savannah. >> should mitt romney have done

better? and one other thing, how about mike pence, he is getting 11.9% of the vote, and every other person is a national figure. >> you're right on both counts. first, romney probably should have done better, given his name i.d. and given his standing in the party. and there is no question about, mike pence, the career republican in the house, even the ardent political activist would have a sense of who that is. he is definitely with romney. and don't forget tim pawlenty working hard to get noticed but still doesn't quite have the ro file of a romney or huckabee, he finished right there with romney. >> you did try to put this in perspective, the kind of people that would show up for a three-day political conference. all right, so that really is narrowing down the number of people who would want to sit through mind-numbing sessions like -- here are some of the sessions in the summit. true tolerance, countering the homo sexual agenda in public schools.

obamacare, rationing your life away. global warming hysteria, the new face of the pro-death agenda. and fighting the vast left wing conspiracy. and then listen to what mike huckabee has to say when he stands up and reintroduces the idea of death panels, which i thought we were done with. >> if the government can tell us who can be born, that same government will also be able to tell us who has to die. we need to believe and continue to stand forth that life begins at conception, and it ends when god calls us home, not whenny zekial immanuel decides to call us home. >> someone who is very conservative and close to me over the weekend, didn't attend the big values voter summit, but feels the same way. a lot of people out there. >> well, and it's reinforced when you have conservative leaders like that who are basically suggested that a

well-attended public event that a white house official is going to be deciding who lives and who dies of. but the fact is, that's what drives buzz among a certain segment of the conservative movement, and that is certainly who was at this event over the weekend. and it played well. that part of the race, and why huck ame won 2-1, he can deliver those kind of lines and get head-nodding. that's his background. that's the world he certainly comes from. >> you're preaching to the choir. >> very well-done. >> thank you. >> he gets up there, jumping on fire and brim stone, and no wonder people are eager -- i'll vote him out of office, those rat finches! >> but a lot of christian conservative leaders still are going to harbor the same doubts about huckabee they had last time, and that is gives a great speech, connects with the base, but can he win a general election? and that's the sense i got talking with the folks saturday. >> who won the value voters summit before last year?

do you know? just doing a little pop quiz here. >> sure. 2007, huckabee won it, actually. that was the big preprimary votes. huckabee won. actually, romney also was right there on the money. and it's a great reminder, in the republican party, things don't change very often. the runners up from the last campaign always tend to be the ones running next time around. they tend to reward those folks who have run before. and here we are seeing very familiar names, huckabee and romney. >> jonathon martin of politico, thank you. if a teacher said that to you, you would be s-gut. >> actually, didn't he call me sara? >> he tried to make up -- >> he dropped a few savannah bombs later. >> come on, now. >> we know each other, but -- >> come on. >> all right. i'll take flowers or -- card. >> i said savannah. >> i think you should just call her -- >> we can rewind the tape. you did call her sara. you fixed it without being

prodded. it's okay. >> there was no fix, savannah. you and i go way back, come on. >> don't worry about it, jim. any time. jim martin from politico. >> oh, my god! negative attacks! >> okay. so just ahead here, what happens when grandpa decides to be a body builder? we'll show the video. that's what happens when grandpa decides to be a body builder. we'll have that, plus a lot of stories that make us say "no way!" >> yes, way. >> wow. you were right. these healthy choice fresh mixer thingys, they taste fresh... say it again! they taste fresh. wait. what are you doing? got it. you're secretly taping me? cook it fresh, strain it fresh, mix it fresh, healthy choice fresh mixers, look for it in the soup or pasta aisle. pothole:h no...your tire's all flat and junk. oh, did i do that? here, let me get my cellular out - call ya a wrecker. ...oh shoot...i got no phone

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well, there are a lot of things considered news in this world. >> only a few stories that make us say "no way!" take a look at this brave bank -- >> i wanted to play with that sound effect a little more. >> go ahead. >> okay. is my name sara? is. >> no way! >> is contessa the greatest? >> no way! >> i'm sorry, this is really fun. >> sometimes we have to keep the toys out of the hands of

children. >> is contessa my favorite person to anchor with? [ ding ] >> all right. >> back to regularly scheduled programming. >> a brave bank customer who stopped a robber, security cameras show the suspect entering a bank and handing a note. seconds later, a man attacks him until police arrive. the customer says he took action because his wife was standing nearby, and he needed to protect his woman. good for him. >> okay. let's go -- you want to see the body builders, right? let's just get to the body builder video. this is proof able is only a -- age is only a state of mind. check these guys out. wow. >> kind of leathery. they're all over 07 years old and took part in a -- are they not leathery? they took part in a massive body building competition in japan. >> do you see regular body builders -- regular body builders are very leathery. >> it's a job description. >> he looks pretty good, you

know, for someone -- he's probably a grandpa. never too hoold to get in shape. >> these guys are over 70. >> even for a typically good, in-shape grandpa, you still don't want to see them in spe speed speedos. >> yeah, they're tan, too. >> a hard time holding back the tears after winning in a comedy series for her role in "pushing daisies of." the show is no longer on the air, so her tearful acceptance speech turned into a plea for work. >> i'd like to thank my parents, i'd like to thank brian fuller for trusting me to create this part. i'm unemployed now, so i would like to be on "mad men." and i also like "the office" and "24."

>> i think that's pretty smart. you know, she is kind of net working her way into a job, right? letting people know, i'm available. and look at me, i can act, i can go from weeping to laughter, just like that. >> and if you need kind of like a shrill, chirpy squeak, i'm your gal. >> why are you giving me a look like that was awful to say? >> because we know what happened afterward. she had to go lie down back stage, because she was so overcome with nausea and a headache. >> i can relate. paramedics treated her. her publicist blames a migraine. you know what would make it better all the time? >> a job. >> yeah. i agree. that happened naturally. up next, the dirty secrets of political tell-all. >> a new book about bill clinton caught our eye today. in the book, clinton talks about a visit to d.c. in 1994 by then russian president boris yet zin. late one night, secret service agents found yeltsin drunk,

apparently trying to hail a cab. he told secret service agents, he wanted a pizza. well, why else would you be out drunk in your underwear in the middle of the night? >> i think we should play the sound effect to that story. >> okay. here we go. >> no way! >> we'll be back with "the big picture" here on msnbc. (announcer) every woman has many sides

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i'm mike huckman with your cnbc market wrap, and stocks ending mixed on wall street today, the dow dropping 41 points, the s&p 500 falling 43, and the nasdaq gaining 5 points. united steel workers has approved a four-year labor

contract. this new deal prevents the company from shifting production to any facility not represented by the union. thereby protecting workers from seven plants being closed. oil prices fell more than 3% on signs of weak demand. fell just under $70 a barrel. and the irs is extending the deadline on an emflesty headline on tax dodgers. the deadline originally set for wednesday has now been moved to october 15th to accommodate a flood of applications. the program promises no jail time, and reduced penalties for those who do come forward. that's it from cnbc's first in business worldwide. now back to msnbc. >> and we have some breaking news coming to us from northern california. video just in to us now of investigators digging on a property in antioch, california. this is the home of phillip garrido who stands accused of kidnapping and holding jaycee

dugard captive for 18 years. they want to know if phillip and his wife nancy have anything to do with other unsolved child abductions from the nearby area. the dogs, the canine dogs, had actually alerted on a certain spot on the garridos' property, so they are digging and looking for any clues, potentially bone fragments, which they have found in other instances, as well. so when we find out whether they find anything, we'll pass that along. >> but in the "big picture" now, the season of political tell-all. four big books coming out with interesting and in some cases shocking revelations about past and present commanders in chief, and john edwards, too. tomorrow, former speech writer's book, matt latimer's book is released, who says the president was confused on the concept of the political movement. and there is this book about the president, and michelle obama, christopher anderson is writing, that the president wasn't so

sure about -- in the clinton tapes by an author who held secret meetings during his time in the white house. and finally, as you may have heard, a book proposal by andrew young says not only is edwards the father of his former mistress's baby, but that he worked with his campaign finance chairman to hide it. >> okay. so now the bigger picture. why all these d.c. tell-alls coming out now. we have a staff writer from the column "heard on the hill." do not get me wrong, i love the back story and the behind the scenes information, but take latimer, for instance. here is somebody that i look at and go, why would you do that? why would you go work for someone and owe them a certain level of loyalty, and then turn around and sell them out? >> yeah. that is a question.

and a lot of people -- the sort of universal response here, in washington, among bush evas, who is matt latimer, trying to do you think play his role, and this happened with scott mcclellan who was also a bushy who wrote a tell-all book. and i think there is something to be said about coming off a presidency that was not popular. and so you don't maybe feel that level of loyalty, and you want to distance yourself from it. that's what scott mcclellan did, and that may be what's happening here. fall, though, is big-time in the publishing industry, so i think a lot of these big, splashy books are just part of the publishing schedule. >> okay. so gq has come out with some experts. but we saw some more today in the "huffington post", jimmy carter if i'm ever 82 and acting like that, have someone put me away. on the other hand, he says for a commencement speech, ed gillespie wanted to insert a lot

of language that condemned gay marriage, and president bush said at the time i'm not going to stand up and tell some gay kid in the audience he can't get married. he called it too condemnatory. do some of these books have an ability to paint someone in a light otherwise that they would not be seen in? >> definitely. and it has to do with, you know, how much of an insider are you? and that's the question, you know, people are saying, who is this guy? well, you do get an insiders view from that book. i think the more interesting insider view is the clinton book you talked about. these are called from really extensive interviews, one-on-one between the president, or then president clinton, and the historian. and so these are interesting and very candid conversations. but you do get to see sides of people, whether it's a side of bush, you know, inside these meetings or clinton's related knight talking to this historian during these very quiet moments. where you might not ever see those sides of those people.

they're more human, maybe, or more personal. >> yeah. >> or maybe more candid. >> and is emily, what's your take on this book proposal by andrew young, he's shopping around? here is a guy who came out when john edwards' affair was made public, and the aide said, i'm the father of reelle hunter's child and now he's saying, no, i'm not, and i was arm-twisted into saying that. >> right. well, i think right away there is a bit of of a credibility problem, because again, he did say he was the father and later that turned out not to be true. but i think this book proposal has become a tawdry, sort of sort sort i had book. it could provide more of an insider's perspective. certainly andrew young has been at this center of this edwards affair. but who knows? this is just a book proposal. and by the time this comes out, who knows what the appetite will be for learning more about that scandal. >> and christopher anderson's

new book portraying the first lady as having a very strong voice when it comes to very important decisions. he says that she even shot down the idea of hillary clinton as a vice presidential candidate, quote, do you really want bill and hillary just down the hall from you in the white house. what are you learning about that tel tell-all? >> that's an interesting one, because it provides a glimpse of how their person relationship informs his presidency. and so her perspective wasn't hillary clinton wouldn't make a good running mate because of x, y and z policy reasons or political reasons, but just asking her husband as a man, could you live in close proximity with this other couple? and i think that's interesting. so i think that's going to be an interesting book. there have already been a ton of books, just a slew of books, about obama, and even about the first lady, and about their marriage. so we'll have to see what new twists it adds into this. you know, there are just a sea of obama books. even before he was sworn in. i mean, he has just been a cottage industry for the book

publishing folks. >> emily, thank you for your time. you know what it medicals me about obama? she knows how to get her husband to do things. because as any wife knows, you don't say, honey, do, you say, do you really want to do that? and then they think the decision is all -- i'm not saying -- i hope my husband is not watching. >> yeah, and then he knows your tricks. >> although in this case, the president did select hillary. >> i know. >> not as a vice presidential candidate. >> i know. i was looking at my blackberry, missed that part, sorry. >> no way! coming up, our face-off on president obama's media blitz. >> five sunday talk shows, plus david letterman tonight. will his latest p.r. help him sell the need for health care reform? we'll see. butternut squash. butternut squash. from campbell's. a soup so velvety and delicious you won't be able to contain yourself. campbell's v8 soups.

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on our caribbean cruises, you can do anything you want. which may be nothing at all. for as low as $80 a day, why not reserve now? call 1800royal22 or your professional travel agent today. well, it's time for today's face-off and the future of the republican party. if you believe the conservative christians who gathered over the weekend at the summit in washington, the future is likely to include mike huckabee. he was the clear favorite in a straw poll conducted this weekend at that summit. huckabee racked up more than double the votes than mitt romney. but it was nearly a four-way tie for the number two spot. romney, pawlenty, sarah palin and mike pence all getting just about 12% of the vote. all of the five top vote-getters made appearances at the summit, except sarah palin.

didn't hurt her vote, though. huckabee and romney failed to defeat john mccain last time. so is it looking to the future? we talk to cara finney, and also with us, republican strategist brent littlefield. okay, first of all, brent, let me ask you, is this the future of the republican party? is this group really representative of where the republican party will be going in 2012? >> well, of course, this was an event sponsored by some outside groups, not by the party. and they did cano owe the straw poll contained names of potential republican party candidates, and i think all of those names of potentially candidates for the party going into the next cycle. of course, a dark horse could emerge, although i wouldn't read much into poll results from a small event like this, where only a third of the people who even attended the event decided to vote in the straw poll. >> did you learn anything, though, about how the republican base is sizing up the republican candidates and what they may

want in 2012. >> well, this is only one part of the republican party base, and, again, it's a small group of people, and that have even voted in had that poll. i think it's interesting, although we might remember, all of us, that mike huckabee, won many straw polls in the last election cycle, but failed to win the nomination. so it remains to be seen if he can sort of parlay his giant e-mail databases, for instance and use that in the future. >> cara let me ask you, one thing is clear, republicans feel they have a winning strategy, it seems, and that is to run against obama, to make future elections, probably next year and certainly 2012, a referendum on obama. do you think they'll be successful? is. >> you know, i don't. although i have to tell you i'm shocked to be talking about a presidential election again. >> we can't help it, care a. it's a sickness. >> this is what we do. can't help ourselves. but i think it's indicative of where the right wing, which is the core base of the republican party, where it is at this moment. and that is very conservative, they don't like a lot of the

things that obama is doing. that's where we are seeing a lot of the nature of the attacks that we have seen against president obama. i think it's going to be a tricky strategy, though, to try to run against the president. we'll have to see sort of where the economy is, and once we get health care reform passed, sort of where things are. because i expect that president obama will have a pretty strong record to run on. the other challenges, as we know, these races are won in the middle, not on the far left or on the far right. so unless the republican party can really chart a new course, and find its way back to the middle and really be a big-tent party, i don't see how they're going to attract the votes. >> i'm with you on that one. i'm curious, though. so here the religious voters, the values voters meeting in had washington, d.c. and then on the other side of the fence, you have president obama doing this all-out media blitz. he's on five different networks in new york city taping the "david letterman show." i'm curious, what do you think, karen, about how much he's in

the public spotlight? >> you know, i think it's actually good. i mean, here we are, talking about the next presidential race. this is what we do, right? inside washington, we like to talk about politics a lot, and we have been talking about health care a lot. but for most americans, they don't have the time to watch television as much as we do. and pay attention to these issues. so i think it gave them an opportunity to once again hear from the president, kind of straight forward. and i would say, you know -- the thing i don't like about that values voters is, you know, i'm a democrat because of my values. and health care to me is part of my values. >> i know, but that's self proclaimed. that's what they calm themselves. >> i know, but i think it was an important contrast to have the president out there talking about health care, which for many democrats is a core value. >> right. okay. so brent, back to the idea that the president goes out there and grabs the spotlight. i mean, karen thinks, hey, for another audience, it's great. not everybody is watching daytime cable news back-to-back. but, you know, the president just got off this prime time speech to congress that was

televised nationally. do you think that it worked to -- try to take yourself out of the partisan -- or don't, i don't care, be partisan if you want to. do you think it works to grab the spotlight and sell your message? >> it's hard to not be partisan when you're dealing with this president. my counterpart here today talks about extremism and i think we're seeing that from the president, which is why his poll numbers are slipping. >> in what way? is he extremist? >> well, i think we see this in the vast amount of spending that's taking place in washington, d.c. right now. average voters across this country are scared about the amount of spending in washington, d.c. and we're seeing that reflected in protests and calls to local radio stations. people are worried and scared, and they have every right to be. so i think the president continuing to go on television and selling the same message is not going to help. it seems like every time he goes on television, his poll numbers drop a little bit, once the people digest the information that took place there. >> karen? >> well, actually, in fact, since the president gave his speech to congress, the numbers

of people who understand the plan and understand what he is trying to accomplish are increasing. and, again, there are more people in this country who support health care reform than are opposed. and this summer, when we saw this town hall meeting, i didn't hear people saying they didn't want reform, but they had questions about how to do it. so, again, i think people want to know more about what the plan is. >> well, and i've got to be clear here. what we saw from the poll numbers after the president gave that speech to congress was that people said, and they responded in the polls, that the more they heard the president explain his plans, the more they did not like it. but if you explain the plans without attaching the president at all, more people said they liked it. so there was a little conundrum. >> hence the problem the president has. people are tired of hearing were him, because he promised a stimulus program, it's going up, he's made promises left and right about the economy instead of keeping deficits low, it's just not coming true. so i think you're tv switches off across america the more the president speaks. >> karen?

>> well, i think the president actually has done a great job, and we know the stimulus package is starting to work. it's going to take a while for those job numbers to come back around. but other indicators are looking very positive of. and i think one of the things about this president is -- the buck stops with him. and he is taking full accountability for this health care plan, and going out there and fighting for it, and making his case to the american people. we didn't see that with our previous president. i think people liked this refreshing change. >> karen, brent, i'm going to leave it there. thank you, guys. wow. that was the face-off, everyone. coming up next, some things we thought you should know. >> tom delay gets ready for his debut on "dancing with the stars," and then on "hardball with chris matthews" president obama's decision on whether to send more troops to afghanistan. doctors recommend tylenol... more than any other brand... of pain reliever. tylenol rapid release gels... release medicine fast. so you can stop headaches... and feel better fast.

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secretary of state hillary clinton gets around. here she is, ringing the opening bell today at the new york stock exchange. secretary clinton is in new york for the 64th session of the u.n. general assembly, making a nightmare gridlock out of the east side of manhattan. >> yeah, just avoid it. a lot going on here today, and a couple other things we thought you should know. we know the president has a lot on his plate with the health care fight, two wars to get through. there's a lot going on. but check out what happened when the president was discussing distribution of the swine flu vaccine during a recent interview. >> i think you're looking at kids, and so mia and sasha would

fall into that category. >> um -- >> sounded like mia. sorry. of course his daughters are named malia and sasha. it's his sister who is named mia. >> in defense, my dad does that, too. calls me his sister's names. i was going to go through the names, but then i feel like it's maybe too much personal information for you all. >> our producer says sometimes she calls the family's dog name. oh, this is something, honestly, if you asked me last year to put a bet whether i would ever see tom delay doing this -- >> he just did jazz hands. >> i would have said no. but there he is with cheryl burke, and tonight we'll get to see what he was really made of. he debuts on "dancing with the stars," creating a buzz, putting all of this energy into rehearsals with little cheryl, and then he suffered a pre-stress fracture in his right foot about a week ago.

and he has vowed he will not give up. a prestress fracture is not enough to do it. in fact, already, his daughter, dani de lay has sent an e-mail, saying my dad is in l.a. preparing for the premier performance of "dancing with the stars," and asking people to vote. she goes through the rules. she really wants people to keep her dad in this contest. i've got to say, it looks like he's doing better than master p., the rapper i saw. >> he looks pretty good. >> jerry. you know, he's -- >> oh, my gosh. that definitely is jazz hands. >> that's what i'm saying. when you were talking, i was watching the video. that's jazz hands. so anyway, he looks good. so tune in for that, i guess. never mind. tune in here tomorrow, and we will tell you what happened. >> moving on, president obama, gearing up for a big trip to the big apple, already here in new york, he'll be here tomorrow for a bunch of events tied to the abdominal meeting of the united nations general assembly.

>> let's get to the next street on politics. mark, we mean other stories other than tom delay on "dancing with the stars," which we will be talking about tomorrow. >> and especially those jazz hands, as you guys were just pointing out. >> what do you have for us? >> well, as savannah knows very well as one of our white house correspondents, president obama has a very busy day in new york tomorrow. he's going to be a u.n. climate change summit. then he has a trilateral meeting with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu and president abbas. and then he is speaking at the global initiative. also tomorrow, the senate finance committee will finally be marking up that health care legislation that senator max baucus has proposed. and our new "wall street journal" poll coming out tomorrow night with president obama, afghanistan and the all-important health care debate. >> while you're talking, we want to show you video that just came

into msnbc. it's hard to beat jazz hands, but this is it, the president sitting down with david letterman as we speak. we can show you the video of them getting ready to do their interview. too bad that can't be asked in the poll, how he did on letterman. but i guess people will just vote with their remote controls. >> exactly. and one thing to watch is, one thing we have seen from president obama often is that when he gets really relaxed, and really comfortable, he sometimes does make a gaffe. that happened when he went on leno several months ago, and is we're going to see president obama at his finest, relaxed, funny, intelligent, but one of the things he has done in the past is relax just a little too much. and we'll see if that happens. >> mark, thank you. and make sure you check out "first read" every morning, updated throughout the day, firstread.msnbc.com. and that is the "big picture" for today. i'm savannah gulthrie.

>> and i'm contessa brewer. up next, ""hardball" with chris matthews. >> command decision. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, this is why we have president's. president obama cannot escape the most brutal decision of his presidency. whether to put more troops into the american war in afghanistan, or pull out and let the taliban and al qaeda win. that was the word delivered to the white house, if they hadn't read it already on the front page of today's -- actually, the "washington post." the commander says we have to put in more troops and fight to protect the people of afghanistan, or we will lose. period. that there is no middle way left. so what will president obama do? will he bite the bullet and fight his own democratic party and escalate the war, or will he

bite the bullet and pull out, which set of consequences will he find the least horrible? we'll talk to a democrat who says it's time to go, and a republican who wants to give general mcchrystal the troops he wants. plus, different channel, same results. remember those inaugural balls last january when the new president danced exactly the same way with exactly the same steps in ball after ball after ball? well, that's what yesterday's tv blitz by president obama reminded me of. the president saying exactly the same thing, making exactly the same points, in show after show after show. so what, if anything, did the president achieve yesterday? and you wouldn't think things could get worse for john edwards, but we read over the weekend that he's about to admit that he did father reelle hunter's child. add to that, more uncomfortable dab details, and you have to ask, what was john edwards thinking when he ran for president? what would have happened had he actually won the democratic